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<psu> hi reinhard
<reinhard> morning psu
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<psu> it's that weird time of the day when the americans have all gone to bed
<psu> and the europeans are just waking up...
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<Proximo> hello does GNUe will support web services?
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<chillywilly> yo drochaid_
<nickr> um
<nickr> that was spammy
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<nickr> hr
<nickr> m
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<chillywilly> hi nickr
<nickr> Hi
<nickr> I'm looking at the current debian packages
<nickr> they are a bit wonky
<nickr> they are rather wonky
<chillywilly> yea, our debs suck
<nickr> they are pretty much a hack
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<nickr> the guy put the ./debian directory right into the setup.py
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<nickr> rather than doing the DESTDIR thing you're supposed ot do
<nickr> I have to reread the quick guide to packaging to figure out the best way to do it
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> having fun :)?
<nickr> I think it'll involve wrapping setpu.py in a Makefile
<nickr> althigh since I know the people who wrote setup.py I could just tell them to support debian he
<nickr> I'll figger it
<nickr> yea, I'm really rusty though
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Action: nickr squeeks.
<chillywilly> drochaid: what is your deal man/.
<chillywilly> s#/.#?
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<nickr> I think he's in annoyance mode
Action: nickr pushes drochaid's reset button
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<chillywilly> well I have no power here to put him in his place....*sigh*
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<nickr> its getting really freaking annoying
<chillywilly> yes it is
<nickr> could get lilo to kline him
<nickr> j/k :)
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> wouldn't bother me one bit ;)
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<chillywilly> drochaid_: stop that shit
<chillywilly> maybe his cable connection is being flaky
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<dtm> i think OPN is having rolling netsplits
<dtm> that's the word around the sushi bar
<dtm> chillywilly: how aryeou
<nickr> Rolling Netsprits sounds like something a stripper does
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<chillywilly> dtm: I am alive an well
<nickr> man the gnome2.0 gimp looks SWEET
Action: nickr drools
<chillywilly> cool
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<nickr> http://www.gnome.org/~jamin/screenshots/beta3/gnome2-beta3-gimp.png <- pron
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<nickr> you see my friend, there are two types of people in this world, those with loaded guns and those who dig.
<reinhard> nickr: there are two types of people: those who divide people into two types and those who don't
<reinhard> :)
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<nickr> hehe
<nickr> good one
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<drochaid> fecking ell
<drochaid> that was some bad routing problem fron NTL :o
<ajmitch> yop
<ajmitch> werd up?
<drochaid> hey ajmitch
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<ajmitch> hey jamest
<jamest> hi
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<Arturas> Hello :)
<derek> hi
<ajmitch> hello
<ajmitch> morning derek
<Arturas> Hello Derek :)
<Arturas> finished debugging level
<derek> Arturas: can you do me a favor
<derek> can you make that a work order
<derek> and then add a time card against it
<derek> and close it
<derek> i want to make sure anything you do for gnue is getting in dcl
<derek> so that we can make sure you are getting compensated properly by m
<Arturas> making...
<derek> honestly i would like to see us all put any effort we do into dcl so we can get an idea of the gnue picture :)
Nick change: derek -> dnShower
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<ajmitch> yo jbailey
<jbailey> Yo ajmitch!
<ajmitch> finally got a new hard drive running
<jbailey> Cool.
<ajmitch> means i can dump the 8GB drive in another box, then use the 6GB drive just for GNU/Hurd
<ajmitch> better than the 450MB partition it currently has ;)
<ajmitch> how's the Hurd going with the change to libio?
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<jbailey> Quite well.
<jbailey> Marcus has a whole slew of packages built now, and the CVS for glibc-2.2 now does the right thing without special patches.
<ajmitch> excellent
<ajmitch> so you got it past the crashing when trying to run anything? :)
<jbailey> Yeah. =)
<jbailey> And marcus had uptime last night of like 12 hours.
<ajmitch> pretty good
<jbailey> There was another weird hang that he could kill, so he had to reboot, but so far that's really good.
<ajmitch> anything for mere users yet?
<ajmitch> masochistic users, that is ;)
<jbailey> There we go. =)
<jbailey> Actually, Marcus has built X, so if you felt like testing it, sure. =)
<ajmitch> heh, pretty good
<jbailey> There's a tarball.  You need to update the glibc in order to get apt running, but after that we're in good shape.
<ajmitch> i'll wait until DSL is up
<ajmitch> then i can download stuff at slightly faster speeds :)
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> When will taht be?
<ajmitch> dunno, maybe next week sometime
<jbailey> Nice.
<jbailey> Perhaps by then we'll be uploading stuff to the main Debian archive.
<ajmitch> got the modem sitting here
<ajmitch> cool
<ajmitch> the dsl modem won't work in the Hurd until there's usb support :)
<jbailey> I just emailed BenC to ask him to fix the Debian package for libc0.3 support.
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> you been doing much for GNUe lately?
<jbailey> I have some not-finished debs for DCL.
<ajmitch> ok cool
<ajmitch> i need to get into packaging
<jbailey> I'm trying to decide if I Should automate database selection and creation, and whether that's an abuse of debconf.
<jbailey> It's a hard question.
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> so who wants to be DCL maintainer? :)
<jbailey> I will be.
<jbailey> It was placed up for adoption and I've announced my intention to adopt it already.
<ajmitch> alright then
<jbailey> Although, we could probably co maintain it.  Now that I think about it, those patches have gone in.
<ajmitch> doesn't worry me too much
<jbailey> Maybe we should get a debian-gnue@lists.debian.org setup for good group discussion, and do the uploaders thing.
<ajmitch> would be useful
<jbailey> Do you have time to organize that?  I don't for a little bit.
<jamest> that would rock
<dnWork> feel free to use the gnue-dev list
<jbailey> But the we can bring all of the Debian packages under that group.
<dnWork> we will be making a new product in DCL
<dnWork> called 'packaging'
<jbailey> dnWork: The advantage of a Debian list just ofr packaging is visibility.
<dnWork> so deb, rpm, exe etc tasks can be put against it
<jbailey> while you're different, most upstream folks tend to chew a new asshole in people who report packaging bugs to them.
<ajmitch> jbailey: yeah, how would i go about getting a list organised?
<jbailey> ajmitch: Excellent question!
<jbailey> That's part of why I say I don't have time to do it right now. =)
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> i'll look into it when i get time :)
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<jbailey> I'm off to work.  See 'ya!
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<dnWork> doh
<dnWork> i had a question for him
<ajmitch> how annoying
<Arturas> what is date format in USA: day/month/year?
<reinhard> Arturas: it's month/day/year
<ajmitch> rather backwards, i must say ;)
<reinhard> day/month/year is english AFAIK
<reinhard> day.month.year is german
<reinhard> year-month-day is ISO
Action: drochaid tends to use SQL-UK
Action: ajmitch wonders why...
<dnWork> GNU doesnt believe in deadlines there for dates are 'unknown data type' :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<drochaid> lol
<Arturas> reinhard: thanks :)
<ajmitch> dnWork: how are DCL forms going?
<dnWork> ok
Action: dnWork is away: work
<ajmitch> cool
Action: dsmith is away: Root Canal
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<Arturas> Hello jcater
<jcater> morning
<ajmitch> hey jcater
<drochaid> hey anyone I haven't said hey to recently
<ajmitch> hey drochaid
<ajmitch> you hadn't said hey to me for a couple of hours
<drochaid> :(
<drochaid> I'm sorry ajmitch
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<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> don't you have a nice reliable connection?
<drochaid_> uhm ...
<drochaid_> I have no recollection of that incident :)
<ajmitch> hehe
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Action: ajmitch goes to sleep for a couple of hours
<ajmitch> maybe not, wxGTK finished building ;)
<drochaid> heh
<ajmitch> now if only this kernel compile would also finish
<drochaid> what time is it over [down?] there?
<ajmitch> Fri Apr  5 03:50:34 NZST 2002
<drochaid> bit early for bed urely?
<ajmitch> 'bout 4, i'll get up at 6 & do some more work
<ajmitch> anyway, bbl (in a couple of hours after i go snooze :)
<drochaid> cya
<drochaid> remember, fall asleep once you hit the bed ... don't fall and hit the bed on the way down :)
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<drochaid> hey ^chewie
<^chewie> hallo!
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<dneighbo> bonjour mon ami
<Arturas> morning :)
<dneighbo> i love the gnucash list
<dneighbo> rate they are going they will demand smoething like gnue for personal finances :)
<dneighbo> i.e. sql database with middle ware via RPC
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<dneighbo> i did just convert all my finances there
<dneighbo> what is funny
<dneighbo> they have NO budgeting
<dneighbo> and the reporting sucks
<dneighbo> i would suspect rather than retooling the backend for the 10th time
<dneighbo> it would make more sense for them to fix other parts :)
<jcater> I plan to use GNUe for personal finances?
<jcater> what's the big deal?
<jcater> plus then the wifey can use it on her Win98 machine :)
<jcater> and I can use it on my palm pilot
<jamest> i use wife for personal finance
<jcater> and hell even view via a web interface while I'm at work
<jcater> oooo, oooo
<jcater> scrap that
<jcater> I can ssh to home and view it :)
<jamest> then I don't have to dick with it at all :)
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> I tried that
<jcater> but only so many register entries can be written on a woman that small
<jamest> :)
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<Arturas> hm, sorry to &@*& you all again :), but i can't commit update to cvs tree
<Arturas> use lincvs
<Arturas> as a front-end to cvs
<Arturas> and in config
<Arturas> server is savan...
<Arturas> but lincvs still tries to connect to subversions...
<Arturas> server
<Arturas> and asks for password :(
<Arturas> i check files root in CVS folders
<Arturas> it may connect to anoncvs because of them
<Arturas> but how then do you update cvs tree??
<Arturas> (ok, i know, you old hackers use command line, but maybe once you tried something visual? :)
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> cvs is on subversions
<dneighbo> iirc
<nickr> dneighbo: the current debian packages are crazy.
Action: ra3vat wonders what visual interface is needed to say "cvs commit" :)
<jamest> Arturas: you will have to check out the cvs tree as your savannah account not as anonymous
<Arturas> ra3vat: 1) Hello :)
<Arturas> ra3vat: 2) :) :) :)
<Arturas> ra3vat: 3) (*&*@&$&@$*(&%!@)#$(!@_$*)#@*$*&@#$(!*@)#$(
<ra3vat> Arturas: hello :)
<jamest> um
<jamest> if anyone updated cvs in last hour or so update again
Action: jamest was being a bonehead
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<drochaid> hey chillywilly, ^chewie
<chillywilly> hiya
<chillywilly> was you cable modem havign issues before?
<chillywilly> s/you/your/
<^chewie> no
<^chewie> I installed a new kernel at work and decided it'd be easier just to kill everything
<^chewie> ;-)
<^chewie> embrace the inevitable
<Arturas> Hello chillywilly :)
<chillywilly> I mean drochaid
<chillywilly> was his cable modem having issues
<chillywilly> hi Arturas
<chillywilly> last night he kept disconnecting and reconnecting
<chillywilly> over and over
<nickr> thousands of times
<drochaid> chillywilly: I think NTL were having a few serious routing issues
<drochaid> someone should have banned me for a while :/
<chillywilly> heh, well I am not worthy of having ops in here or some shit
<drochaid> maybe openprojects.net needs some onjoin flood protection
<chillywilly> well lilo is the guy to talk to as he runs things here
<nickr> there was slight delays
<drochaid> aye, but so many joins per hour should still suggest a prob
<chillywilly> it would probably have to be at a higher frequiency to be considered a join flood
<^chewie> sed rocks
<^chewie> just a random thought for you all ;-)
<drochaid> awk & sed are rather nice together
<nickr> pipeline tools in general rock
<^chewie> though I look at awk and think "ick"
<drochaid> that's what I think when I look in the mirror ...
<chillywilly> hey now
<^chewie> it's nice and small and allows basic flow control, but python is so much nicer
<nickr> awk has a specific purpose as does python
Action: drochaid thinks everyone should program in oberon 2
<^chewie> heh
Action: nickr is fairly sure everyone should program in Intercal
<nickr> that way, programmers would make a lot more money, and it'd keep dumb people out of programming
<drochaid> mmm, can we compromise? sureAI ?
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<nickr> va'raq is also acceptable
Action: chillywilly is trying to understand this 'Interface' thingy form the python cookbook
<dneighbo> Arturas did someone solve your cvs issue?
<chillywilly> s/form/from
<dneighbo> nickr btw jbailey said current packages looked odd as well
<chillywilly> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/68445
<dneighbo> i generally just blame jcater 
Action: drochaid has a CVS problem ... he doesn't know how to use it :(
<chillywilly> dneighbo: how's it his fault?
<dneighbo> and if he denies responsibility then i just shift the blame to jamest
<nickr> dneighbo: well, the guy who packaged them hard coded the debian temp diroctry rigcht into setup.py, I'm fairly sure this is the wrong thing to do
<chillywilly> blame me
<chillywilly> blame me!
Action: dneighbo blames chillywilly 
<chillywilly> yay!
Action: drochaid blames the fact he can't afford a Halberg-Rassy HR62 on chillywilly
<chillywilly> check this out
<chillywilly> #
<chillywilly> # a kind of interface 
<chillywilly> #
<chillywilly> class Copyable:
<chillywilly> 	def copy(self):
<Arturas> dneighbo: we decided some time has to pass while server activates my key
<chillywilly> 		return self.__copy__() 
<chillywilly> 	def __interface__(self):		
<chillywilly> 		assert self.__class__.__dict__.has_key('__copy__')
<chillywilly> 		x = self.copy()
<chillywilly> 		if hasattr(self,'__cmp__') or hasattr(self,'__eq__'):						
<chillywilly> 			assert x==self
<chillywilly> 		assert x is not self
<Arturas> chillywilly: are you pasting all GNUe sources here? :)
<chillywilly> they are doing run-time testing of a class to amke sure it implements the interface?
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> this is form the python cookbook
<chillywilly> er, from
<Arturas> have to go :)
<Arturas> have a good time ;)
<Arturas> bye
<^chewie> hmm, time for lunch now that I figured out the whole network connections problem
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<chillywilly> I guess the only thing I don't get there are the asserts
<^chewie> btw, as an aside note for the Linux users in the bunch, don't enable CONFIG_INET_ECN, the Explicit Congestion Notification
<chillywilly> any python gurus can help?
<^chewie> you will run into hosts that'll refuse you connections
<chillywilly> I don't think I have that turned on in my kernel
<nickr> chillywilly: I say 'don't worry about it becaus you don't need to use those features'
<chillywilly> I just like to understand the code, but looking in my python refernce manual is sysa if those assertions prove false and AssertionError exception is thrown
<chillywilly> so it makes sense now
<chillywilly> hey i think I get their example stack interface now too
<jcater> that's truly ugly python code dude
<chillywilly> I just love the broken english descriptions
<chillywilly> jcater: hey python masta
<chillywilly> jcater: yea, just a bit ;)
<jcater> howdy
<jcater> I have a simpler stack:
<jcater>  myStack = []
<chillywilly> but not after you read it a million times
<jcater> pretty impressive, eh?
<chillywilly> this is an 'Interface'
<jcater> and just as functional :)
<chillywilly> not a tack in itself
<jcater> I got that :)
<jcater> looks like they are trying to turn python into java
<jcater> if they wanna do that, just use java to begin with :)
<chillywilly> only reason I am looking at it is that ODMG has several interfaces that I'd like to create python bindings for
<chillywilly> s/tack/stack
<chillywilly> I suppose it is unnecessary
<chillywilly> you just write the class and write the methods all in one swoop ;)
<chillywilly> screw interfaces
<chillywilly> but I thought it might be interesting to look at
<chillywilly> in the c++  binding they use abstract classes
<chillywilly> (classes with pure virtual methods)
<chillywilly> well one thing is if you write a python binding using some 'Inteface' implementation I suppose the cool thing would be somone else could use it or something
<chillywilly> whatever ;P
<nickr> its silly that C++ makes a distinction between virtual and nonvirtual methods
<chillywilly> yea, just one downfall of c++
<chillywilly> but that's not my point either :P
<chillywilly> hey smalltalk only uses 'interface' declarations it seems
<drochaid> did they fix that in C#?
Action: drochaid runs
<chillywilly> actually I think I like this run-time interface checking as python is dynamically typed langauge
<nickr> Smalltalk doesn't check the interfac afaik
<nickr> messages are passed between objects and are either handled or not
<chillywilly> well I don't know smalltalk very well just that it is dynamically typed like python
<jcater> python is a loosely message-based object
<jcater> it appears dynamically typed
<jcater> but is actually message-based when you get into the nitty gritty 
<chillywilly> could you explain that?
<chillywilly> 'message-based'?
<jcater> attributes (functions, variables, etc) are actually retrieved via a __getattr__ and __setattr__ call
<jcater> you can override those methods
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> to make any object look like it has any attribute you'd like
<jcater> hence a "message" is sent to __getattr__ which usually just returns an attribute of an object
<chillywilly> yea
<jamest> you can see sort of an example of this in common/src/GTrigger.py
<chillywilly> well see this is why I am here to get feedback fromt eh pythin gurus ;)
<jcater> s/sort of/
<chillywilly> er, python
<chillywilly> btw. how do you guys get the gnu. namespace? I don't see a __init__.py in the gnue dir
<chillywilly> er, gnue.
<chillywilly> but I do see something inm
<chillywilly> build/lib/...
<chillywilly> I'm just curious
<chillywilly> the package layout is fucking with my head
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> hrm there's an __init__.py in common/gnue
<chillywilly> hello?
<chillywilly> did you guys disappear?
<dneighbo> jcater i want to use python
<dneighbo> but i like java
<dneighbo> so i make python look like java
<dneighbo> i would just use java you see
<jcater> ah
<jcater> reminds me of something else
<jcater> I wanna use GNUe
<jcater> but I like Delphi
<jcater> so make GNUe look like Delphi
<chillywilly> sorry guys but I do NOT think the interface concept is a Java only concept
<jcater> and I would just use GNUe you see
<jcater> ;)
<chillywilly> it's an OO concept
<chillywilly> can be expressed in UML
<jcater> it's java's interpretation of objects
<chillywilly> is useful
<jcater> if you go back to the message-based objects that nickr brought up
<chillywilly> every object has an 'interface'
<jcater> most think that non-message-based OO languages are not really OO
<chillywilly> the interface are the methods you can call on it
<chillywilly> this is not a Java thing
<jcater> hence java isn't really OO
<jcater> just wants to be
<chillywilly> but I don't want to debate this I want to know about the package layout ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: one word of advice
<chillywilly> please help a stupid pythin newbie
<jcater> DON'T OVERCOMPLICATE :)
<jcater> keep it simple
<jcater> it's easy to do that in python
<jcater> but we are here to help :)
<jcater> I'm glad to see you embracing python
<chillywilly> well I ahve no idea whether or not I will use this convoluted Interface hting
<chillywilly> probably not
<chillywilly> since no one likes it
<jcater> I would recommend against it
<jcater> you gain little
<jcater> from a python perspective
<chillywilly> and it is complex
<chillywilly> I had to read it a billion times to understand it
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> which means it is not simple and breaks KISS
<dneighbo> but i cant seem to get java vm to work on anything but windows
<chillywilly> I was just making an aside point about how an 'interface' is not necessarily a Java thing
<chillywilly> will some one please ecplain how we get the gnue. package?
<chillywilly> er, explain
<jcater> huh?
<chillywilly> also how can you use gnue.forms
<chillywilly> the dir layout doesn't seem to be intuitive to me
<chillywilly> but maybe I am an idiot
<jcater> I'm confused
<jcater> oh, you mean you want to get to gnue.common from inside your python script?
<chillywilly> well in the python book it is like dir/__init__.py/dir/__init__.py/....blah blah
<chillywilly> my python book anyway
<chillywilly> but it doesn't seem that we follow that layout
<chillywilly> so I am confused
<jcater> well, our cvs layout doesn't necessarily correspond to the installed layout
<jcater> are you working from cvs?
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<chillywilly> of course...well looking at cvs code
<jcater> if so, then run the ./setup-cvs.py
<chillywilly> wait I think I get it....you setup the dir layout in the build dirs?
<chillywilly> the installed layout
<chillywilly> right?
<jcater> it will create a .cvsdevelbase directory in cvs/gnue
<jcater> if you set your PYTHONPATH=~/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase
<jcater> then in python, you can just od
<jcater>   import gnue.common
<jcater> this is handled by the install routines
<jcater> but you have to do this when working from cvs
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> btw, the setup-cvs.py script does create
<jcater> gfcvs, grcvs, gfdes scripts
<jcater> and if you look at those scripts
<jcater> they are basically setting the PYTHONPATH for you
<chillywilly> ah
<jcater> so you might want to copy one of those to gnue-chilly
<chillywilly> how do you go about adding a module to common?
<jcater> and change what they execute
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> like gnu.common.odmg for example or whatever
<chillywilly> er, gnue
<chillywilly> I mean package
<chillywilly> a module is a .py file right?
<chillywilly> nevermind I think I understand now
<jcater> no
<jcater> a module is a directory that has a __init__.py
<jcater> well
<jcater> yeah a .py file is a module
Action: jcater is on crack today
<jamest> um
<jamest> you really don't have to point that out jcater
<chillywilly> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/102187
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> this is harier
<jamest> i mean, why would today be any different that any other day
<chillywilly> er hairier
<jcater> chillywilly: a word of advice
<jamest> #gnuenterprise person = crack smoker
<jcater> there's very little useful stuff on aspn
<jcater> *very* little
<chillywilly> you have to go through all that just to create a singelton?
<chillywilly> er, singleton
<chillywilly> where's a good place?
<jcater> no
<jcater> that's just that guy's idea of a singleton
<jcater> chillywilly: hang on 
<jcater> lemme find a url
<chillywilly> it's his 'solution'
<chillywilly> a very fuckes up one
<chillywilly> fucked
<jcater> ok
<jcater> found a url
<chillywilly> that makes me nautious
<jcater> http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/
<chillywilly> doesn't python 2.2 support class members?
<chillywilly> just curious
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> ****keep it simple****
<chillywilly> what
<chillywilly> 's a simpel way to make a thread safe singleton in python then ;)
<nickr> wtf is a singleton anyway? Sounds like CS jerkoff
<chillywilly> an object that only has 1 instance
<chillywilly> it's a design pattern
<chillywilly> I use it here and there if the situation calls for it
<nickr> ugh
<nickr> thats stupid
<chillywilly> no it's not
<nickr> it IS CS jerkoff.
<jcater> there's no need for that
<jcater> none
<jcater> not a bit
<jcater> nadda
<jcater> nilch
<jcater> donut
<nickr> mm donutes
<nickr> actually i can see where it'd be useful, but I don't see why you need the language to 'support' it
<jcater> that's what I mean :)
<jcater> we have a few "singletons" (if you want to call them that(
<jcater> where we only have one instance
<jcater> thing is, we only *create* one instance of the class
<jcater> pretty simple implementation, eh?
<chillywilly> because you don't want multiple instances and people can create another one and fuck things up
<nickr> chillywilly: then those people are stupid
<jcater> chillywilly: if you are the coder and you create multiple ones, then you fscked it up :)
<chillywilly> they call obj.Instance() and get back the same one
<nickr> and you did something really stupid
<jcater> not the user
<chillywilly> no, you don;t get it you don't use the constructor but a method to returna  refernce to the one and only one instance
<jcater> maybe I do get it
<jcater> and know how to code properly to not need a language feature
<chillywilly> it's not a lnaguage feature
<nickr> thats actually really, really simple in python
<chillywilly>  you can use a class variable to implement it, but that's just one way
<nickr> does python have 'class variables'? Hrm, sort of I guess
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<nickr> yea
<chillywilly> it just pushed the responsibility to the class for leeping track that there is only one instance
<chillywilly> psuhes
<sledge_> hi
<nickr> hey
<chillywilly> that's all it is good for
<dneighbo> for the record i concur aspn is bad news for python
<chillywilly> can you live without it? you bet you can...but of course it makes you have to manage things
<dneighbo> basically its visual c++ developers
<dneighbo> and vb develoeprs
<dneighbo> trying to make python work like their tools
<dneighbo> and i agree STRONGLY with nickr
<dneighbo> so much of this stuff is CS jerk off material
<jcater> chillywilly: you have to "manage" things?
<jcater> heavan forbid!
<sledge_> aspn?
<chillywilly> mange that there's only going to be one instance ever created throughout all the code
<dneighbo> i worked with fellow that was a STUD in database design
<dneighbo> like master degree in it
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<nickr> dneighbo: thank you
<nickr> dneighbo: I knew you were cool when I first met you
<water> howdy
<dneighbo> i looked at his table structure for our company app
<dneighbo> and i was like wtf?
<dneighbo> you will NEVER be able to right a GUI for this
<chillywilly> it's a pattern that I find useful and it has nothing to do with a stinking language
<dneighbo> and he was like its in the x normal form w/ blah etc etc etc
<dneighbo> and im like yeah
<dneighbo> you are right
<nickr> heheh
<dneighbo> but you arent listening to me
<dneighbo> you will NEVER be able to write a useable front end to this son of a bitch
<nickr> the moment they mention Djkstra or something, you know you're in trouble...
<dneighbo> and it has PRACTICAL problems
<dneighbo> i.e. techincally it was correct (read CS jerk off material)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> well CS is really a science
<dneighbo> but practically it didnt meet business requirements and usage
<nickr> like real CS
<sledge_> dneighbo: i like that term, "CS jerk off material" :-)
<chillywilly> me either
<dneighbo> im not saying knowing the stuff isnt important
<nickr> and its interesting and useful, but not applicable to real life
<dneighbo> it is
<nickr> er, not directly applicable
Action: jcater strives for 3rd normal form
<dneighbo> but constantly saying because a 'theory' exists it must be relative is nuts
<nickr> just like quantum mechanics isn't applicable to real life in a direct way
<jcater> anything above is usually academic
<dneighbo> generally i think the sucessful folks keep two principles
<dneighbo> KISS
<dneighbo> and 
<dneighbo> everything in moderation
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> if a theory cant be applied with passing both of those litmus tests it will probably fail in the long run
<nickr> sometimes it is fun to have a nice jerk session of real elegent things :)
<dneighbo> imho
<drochaid> I'm not having router issues .... just rebooting :)
<dneighbo> btw sledge_ that 'cs jerk off material' is a service mark of nickr not i :)
<sledge_> if CS is jerk off, then Python coding must be something like sex
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Action: dneighbo wanted to make that in the log ;)
<dneighbo> sledge_ actually i suppose thats relative
<jcater> sledge_: well, considering all the time we put into our python code, I sure hope so
<jcater> lord knows theres not much elsewhere :)
<dneighbo> theory says missionary position is the easiest most used position
<dneighbo> now you ask a 600 pound gal how often she is in the missionary position
<nickr> not all CS is jerkoff
<dneighbo> and i suppose your theory will be found not to work in practice :)
<nickr> But like any sience, there is a lot of wanking involved
<nickr> scrience
<nickr> science
<dneighbo> nickr i like to think of it in precision
<dneighbo> if im creating a kernel or a device etc
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<dneighbo> my precision is much more reasonable as there are less external variables
<dneighbo> but if im writing an accounting application
<dneighbo> its less science more art
<dneighbo> as the variables become much greater
<sledge_> dneighbo: writing an accounting app is art? tell that these uspto people...
<nickr> Indeed
<chillywilly> you guys are something I ask how to implement a known design pattern in python and you write it off as CS jerkoff business, wtf?
<dneighbo> um you specifically said why doesnt python natively do this
<jcater> if its overkill and academic, then, well....
<nickr> All programming is art and science (a craft like horseshoeing) to some degree imho
<dneighbo> our answer was its academic
<jcater> KISS
[14:00] Last message repeated 5 time(s).
<chillywilly> it's not overkill
<chillywilly> I don't want to have to manage how many instances can be created in my mind
<chillywilly> I want the class to do it
<dneighbo> if you asked me how to get like 10th normal form in postgres and can you do so with a union, nest and subquery with 55 primary keys
<chillywilly> I can just say give me an instance
<jcater> imho that's just bad programming
<dneighbo> i would say if you need to do that you live in academia
<chillywilly> hell I can ever say only let me create 5 instances
<nickr> chillywilly: The thing about python, though, is that you don't have to create ANY instances
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> am i in a gnucash channel ?
<dneighbo> ;)
<nickr> the object just exists
<jcater> dneighbo: were either chillywilly or I claiming one of our "members" was bigger?
<nickr> theres your singleton right there. Bam.
<jcater> no!
<jcater> so you must not be in #gnucash
<nickr> my member is huge!
<jcater> mine is efficient
<jcater> but has a singleton pattern
<nickr> thats just an excuse people use to make up for tiny members
<dneighbo> rofl
<chillywilly> the point is not to do it to be hip retards
<sledge_> nickr: i hate it when other people talk about size
<dneighbo> hey mine isnt small its a singleton
<chillywilly> point is it makes my life easier
<jcater> chillywilly: not really
<chillywilly> it's a known solution that can be communicated to others
<jcater> it's one more structure/function to manage/debug
<jcater> let me put it this way
<jcater> if I'm debugging your code
<nickr> wouldn't it be best in python not to use an object at all for singletons?
<jcater> and I'm see you creating instances of something all over the place
<jcater> and I can't figure out wtf is going on 
<nickr> you just make a module which is like a self-instantiating object ssort
<nickr> a
<jcater> because you chose to do a singleton pattern
<jcater> instead of smarter management
<jcater> I'm gonna be PISSED
<jcater> and stop working with your code
Action: dneighbo goes to read up on this singleton pattern to see what happens when jcater gets PISSED ;)
<jcater> btw
<jcater> that's PISSED off
<jcater> not on
<nickr> or pissed in the british sense
<dneighbo> well mom always said,
<dneighbo> "better to be pissed off, than pissed on"
<chillywilly> jcater: that's stupid
<nickr> better to be pissed than pissed off or on
<jcater> dneighbo: do you not agree w/my argument?
<dneighbo> well my dad once gave me an ancedote after 30 years in teh business
<dneighbo> he wrote an api that was all non object based for amex
<dneighbo> a year later a hot shot Phd came in
<nickr> Its just pointl/ess overhead trying to make a singleton object, make a singleton pattern using modules
<dneighbo> and rewrote it all in objects
<dneighbo> everything an objects
<jcater> nickr: we've done that in gnue-forms
<dneighbo> within a month of gonig live they called my dad back and asked him to please come put all the new specs back in his version
<dneighbo> they were throwing away the object version
<jcater> we create an instance of a class in the module at startup
<nickr> jcater: I realize that, I'm just reiterating :)
<jcater> ah
<jcater> ok
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> as the people using the API found it horribly convulted and an utter bitch to work with
<nickr> you don't even need to make an object instance
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<nickr> because a module is object-ish
<dneighbo> having to create and destroy objects and such
<dneighbo> now my dad will be the first to say that objects are great
<dneighbo> when used properly and in moderation
<chillywilly> blah blah
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<dneighbo> so jcater yes i agree
<jcater> well, thanks
<dneighbo> something that might be TECHINICALLY superior
<jcater> although I fail to see how that anecdote applies
<jcater> but thanks for agreeing
<dneighbo> but is not maintainable or debugable is useless
<chillywilly> it is not very difficult of a concept
<dneighbo> basically that because its the way the Phd (computer stud) says is technically correct
<chillywilly> even I can understand it
Action: nickr proposes dumping python and implimenting it all in quantum computer simulator
<dneighbo> doesnt mean its EASIER to use/maintain/modify etc
<jcater> chillywilly: it's not about "understanding"
<jcater> it's about maintenance
<dneighbo> and in the REAL world (amex)
<dneighbo> dollars count
<chillywilly> how is it hard to maintain?
<jcater> bah
<chillywilly> how is it not real world(tm)?
<jcater> read the backlog
<dneighbo> and they went BACK to somethign that easier for them
<dneighbo> btw: i dont want to bring this up but i do
<dneighbo> we had a case of this in GNUe once already
<sledge_> I prefer stupid code.
<chillywilly> it's a mechanism to solve a problem in a given situation and that's all it is
<dneighbo> a certain sectino of gnue code was written to be all objects
<jcater> chillywilly: one of jamest's and my MAJOR points about python
<dneighbo> and it made things a nightmare
<jcater> is that any one of us can pick up the other's code
<dneighbo> and had to be refactored back into a mixture
<jcater> and within a minute
<jcater> undesrstand wtf is going on
<dneighbo> now thats not to say that the code wasnt BETTER technically
<dneighbo> but when 5 out of 5 developers
<nickr> chillywilly: we told you hov to do a 'singleton pattern'
<chillywilly> just because it has goofy jargon to make it sound complex does not mean it is
<dneighbo> couldnt reasonably follow the code
<dneighbo> it was deemed regardless that it was the WRONG way to do it :)
<chillywilly> in fact most of the time it's not complex at all just made to sound that way
<chillywilly> 'singleton'....oooh fancy name for one stinking instance
<chillywilly> I can't believe I am arguing about the usefulness of a singleton
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> it's mental
<jcater> then stop arguing and accept our standards
<jcater> :)
<nickr> chillywilly: just make a fucking module that acts like a singleton class bitch
<sledge_> hey, today i received my copyright assignment papers
<dneighbo> cool
<chillywilly> nickr: well that's one way and probably a good way
<chillywilly> instead of helping meut you guys are just 
<dneighbo> and after this discussion you decided you wouldnt be needing them :)
<nickr> chillywilly: in python its the best way
<chillywilly> arguing about how stupid I am being
<chillywilly> insted of providing a 'solution'
<jcater> chillywilly: how have we not provided a solution from the beginning?
<chillywilly> thanks
<jcater> we've said "manage your objects better"
<chillywilly> it's not about object mangement
<jcater> <cough>bullshit</cough>
<chillywilly> why shouldn't the class manage it's own instances? I write the code once
<chillywilly> and I just call obj.Instance() and that's it
<chillywilly> that's real hard
Action: jcater has been describing "readability" all along
<jcater> not difficulty in programming
<dneighbo> im sorry we dont run that kind of channel here
<dneighbo> if its 'real hard' we will have to ask you to leave until you 'soften up a bit'
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> there are children present
<sledge_> jcater: daddy?
<nickr> porn!
<jcater> :)
Action: dneighbo was reference back to the CS jerkoff + member size thing
<chillywilly> is there any situation whatsoever that i will need to have only one instance of an object?
<dneighbo> there is a rule about nazi means its degraded in conversation or soemthing
<dneighbo> here if it goes to goat sex
<dneighbo> or p0rn 
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<chillywilly> id the answer is yes then the singleton patterns solves this problem
<chillywilly> s/id/if
<dneighbo> i think its sufficient to call the thread dead :)
<chillywilly> that's all I am saying
<dneighbo> psu: im curious to see how you author the last hour of conversation via the KC
<chillywilly> if you can't see the elegance behind making the obkect ensure there is only once instance of itself then you really are a  moron
<sledge_> dneighbo: okay, let's return to pr0n with python-coding chicks
Action: dneighbo restates for the record "Honest, its not small, its a singleton"
<nickr> I'd like to restate for the record that message passing object systems r00l..
<psu> dneighbo: cut-off is Wed, so I get a whole week to read & decypher the log ;-)
<dneighbo> sledge_ oh i think you are lookign for www.pythonbimbos.com
<jcater> sledge_: you misunderstood
<nickr> psu: its not the difficulty of decyphering
<jcater> we use wxPython
<jcater> not XXXpython
<nickr> www.xxxbigpython.com
<sledge_> jcater: damnit. do you want to tell me that i'm *not* on #py-pr0n ?
<chillywilly> no one in the python channel thinks a singeton is stupid if implemented correctly and used appropriately
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> chillywilly: please drop it
<jcater> what are you trying to prove?
<jcater> eh?
<chillywilly> that you guys hate me
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> we could prove that in 1 sentence
<chillywilly> any idea I have is met with criticism
<jcater> why all this commotion?
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> :)
<nickr> whats all this then?
<sledge_> chillywilly: we love you, seriously. except for that singleton.
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> fuck off
<jcater> please keep all singletons to yourselves
<jcater> this is a PG-13 rated channel
<jcater> let's try to keep it that way
<chillywilly> you just proved to me that you are morons and the only way you deal with things you don't understand or heard of is to ridicule it
<sledge_> okay. back to constructive mode.
<nickr> chillywilly: you're right.
<jcater> #gnuenterprise constructive?
<nickr> I don't understand Quantum Mechanics
<jcater> sledge_: you are new here, right?
<jcater> :)
<nickr> damn quanta! be linear!
<sledge_> jcater: i'm an optimist (like Orwell).
<chillywilly> I bet the singleton pattern is used in kdelibs
<chillywilly> or QT for that matter
<chillywilly> and many other places
<nickr> kde is a paragon of good design
<chillywilly> but nah, it's just a stupid thing use by us CS jerkoffs
<sledge_> qt is well-designed imho
Action: chillywilly notes he's an engineer not a CS jerkoff
<jcater> chillywilly: you remind me of my wife
Action: nickr is an artist so dismisses anything that sounds complex and nonintuitive as jerkoff
<nickr> like that math stuff!
<jcater> take anything thats said and turn it around to be a personal attack
<nickr> Sheez!
<chillywilly> jcater: nope, that was a joke hence the ;P
<chillywilly> jcater: so get a clue
Action: jcater searches for the last reference to ;)
<sledge_> where's the code, anyway?
<chillywilly> there is none I just asked how one would implement a singleton out of curiousity and then all hell broke loose ;)
<nickr> man caffiene is the coolest drug
<nickr> I'm glad its legal
<chillywilly> so it's pretty pointless and I wasted a lot of time
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> go GNUe!
<jcater> and our time too :)
<nickr> yes
<nickr> our time is very valuable
<nickr> at least mine is
<chillywilly> s/I/we
<chillywilly> sorry
<chillywilly> mother fucker it is cold in here
<dneighbo> chillywilly i think you take things too personally
<chillywilly> I am not taking ANYTHING personally
<dneighbo> but beyond that
<chillywilly> I'm sorry if I make you think
<chillywilly> it might hurt your little head
<dneighbo> you asked an academic question
<dneighbo> and didnt liek the response
<chillywilly> well google proves to be more useful
<dneighbo> if you wanted to make a STRONGER point
<chillywilly> than this channel
<dneighbo> you would look at gnue code
<chillywilly> I don't care about making my point
<dneighbo> find an example of a 'singleton'
<chillywilly> you already admitted that such things exist
<dneighbo> and see if it was done to the degree you liked
<dneighbo> if not
<dneighbo> then redo it as your pattern
<dneighbo> and ask
<dneighbo> isnt this better than that
<dneighbo> to which a real (non academic) discussion could occur
<chillywilly> I don't have the time right nwo to dig through all of it
<dneighbo> but basically saying python sucks it doesnt do singletons
<chillywilly> I thought it would be something used
<dneighbo> and getting a response of
<chillywilly> here already
<chillywilly> and that you guys would know wtf I am talking about
<dneighbo> well we dont find them to be overtly useful in what we do and where we do this kidn of thing we do X
<chillywilly> no no no no
<dneighbo> you retort, 'fuck you moron, you dont get it'
<dneighbo> then claim the world hates you
<chillywilly> I didn't say it didn't do singletons
<chillywilly> I asked if you knew a methods that was less complex than the url I pated
<dtm> HI GUYS
<jcater> and the response was "write your code to only create a single instance"
<chillywilly> but some took this as an arttack ot something
<jcater> to which the response was "you don't get it" (explitive deleted)
<chillywilly> jcater: I was just surious if you knew of a way or a place where it was done but don't worry I found one
<chillywilly> yes, I got angry because you all started talking shit right wawy and not listening
<dneighbo> chillywilly you say 'some took it as an attack'
<dneighbo> but when your response if F You moron, you dont get it
<chillywilly> it was a simple inquiry not an attack on python
<nickr> I want chillywilly's remarks stricken from the record
<dneighbo> i think you find generally in return you will get attacked :)
<chillywilly> I said that after the fact
Action: dtm strikes chillywilly with a record
<chillywilly> after you guys were going on and on about how academic it is, how it is bad management, blah blah
<dtm> whooops!  that's not what i meant to do!
<dtm> chillywilly: hi dan
Action: dneighbo hands dtm a trout, we dont use records here
<dtm> chillywilly: i hope you got more sleep than i did :)
<chillywilly> who fucking cares
<sledge_> my patch has still not been applied :-/ is this default caution?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you know how rms will sit there and lecture someone instaed of answering their question, this is exactly what happened here, imho
<chillywilly> I didn't come to debate the usefulness of a singleton pattern but to know if you knew anythig about doing it in python
<chillywilly> done!
<nickr> chillywilly: we told you how to do that on several occations
<nickr> in several ways
<dtm> singletons suck!   i mean..  singletons rule!!!
Action: dtm waits for a side to pick himj
<dtm> s/himj/him/
<chillywilly> nickr: nope, you made one suggestion a little while ago
<chillywilly> that was it
<chillywilly> there was no 'serveral' occasions
<nickr> chillywilly: i'm fairly sure that jcater made a similar suggestion, and that we all said 'just instantiate it once'
<chillywilly> that has problems
<chillywilly> it's not 'defensive'
<chillywilly> that's one reason for the wholw pattern it guarantees
<chillywilly> there can only be one
<nickr> the module method is best in python
<chillywilly> or a limited pool
<nickr> import Highlander;
<chillywilly> hehe
<sledge_> chillywilly: mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-April/000151.html
<dneighbo> sledge_ did i tell you to send patch to dcl?
<sledge_> dneighbo: you did
<dneighbo> i told someone that and i cant remember who
<chillywilly> I just hope that next time I have a question about implementing a design pattern in python that people won't be getting all jumpy
<chillywilly> I like python damnit!
<dneighbo> and then realized our mail gateway and normal dcl operations are eating files
<dneighbo> so please send to info@gnue.org
<nickr> chillywilly: Don't you like python!? Bitch!!
<chillywilly> python sucks rocks
<sledge_> dneighbo: i did, but forgot to attach the patch itself :) i'll resend it tomorrow.
<chillywilly> anyway...
<chillywilly> thanks sledge_
<chillywilly> that is a lot better than the other one
Action: chillywilly is freezing his nuts off
<chillywilly> damn it's cold down here
<sledge_> chillywilly: singletons can be implemented quite easily
<sledge_> chillywilly: ah, now we know the reason for flaming <g,d&r>
<nickr> first throw out your UML book. THen forget about singletons.
<chillywilly> sledge_: ?
<nickr> actually I have a really good book on UML and design patterns that I should reread
<chillywilly> I bet the singelton is in there
<chillywilly> factory pattern is useful too ;)
<sledge_> chillywilly: i was referring to your complaint about your cold $ENV :)
<chillywilly> yea, I am a bit purturbed
<chillywilly> as I am freezing
<nickr> Yea actually singleton is in there
<nickr> "Don't ever use the singleton pattern. It sucks. Just trust us. Look at these pictures of nude women instead."
Action: chillywilly looks at the naked chicks
<sledge_> nickr: UML is nice, but not all ideas can be used in a free software bazaar development model.
<chillywilly> why is that sledge_?
<nickr> sledge_: what does that have to do with UML?
<nickr> chillywilly: any UML book with naked chicks is a good UML book
<chillywilly> because people are too busy hacking away and not thinking about how they should do something before they just go off and do it ;P
<sledge_> uml is a comm language. do we talk with words or uml diagrams?
<nickr> both
<jcater> chillywilly: that is so not true
<nickr> they are compliments
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> jcater: what a surprise you are arguing with me again
<nickr> just like orange and blue
<chillywilly> jcater: it was a joke
<chillywilly> HELLO
[14:50] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> 302 RELAYING NOT PERMITTED
<chillywilly> sheesh
<chillywilly> get off my sack dawg
<sledge_> "oh yeah baby, hack me, yes, enable my debug mode, oh, you nasty guy"
<chillywilly> I want to so see your singleton
<chillywilly> baby
<jcater> my singleton is so well coded it'd embarrass you
<nickr> gdb is a sex toy
<chillywilly> jcater: no way
<chillywilly> beat this
<chillywilly> Simulation *
<chillywilly> Simulation::Instance ()
<chillywilly> {
<chillywilly>   // First check
<chillywilly>   if (instance.get () == NULL)
<chillywilly>     {
<chillywilly>       // Ensure serialization
<chillywilly>       lock.EnterMutex ();
<chillywilly>       
<chillywilly>       // Double check
<chillywilly>       if (instance.get () == NULL)
<chillywilly> 	{
<chillywilly> 	  auto_ptr<Simulation> tmp (new Simulation);
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> 	  instance = tmp;
<chillywilly> 	}
<chillywilly>     }
<chillywilly>   lock.LeaveMutex ();
<chillywilly>   return instance.get ();
<chillywilly> }
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> ok... I will
<chillywilly> thread-safe too :D
<chillywilly> uuugggggh!
<jcater> sys.exit()
<jcater> how's that
<jcater> can't get more efficient than that?
<jcater> oh, and it's thread-safe too
<nickr> yes
<sledge_> oh my god, is this ... it is ... it is C++! go to the underground facilities!
<nickr> ASS
<psu> nickr: all free s/w is a sex toy. See the headquote for GNUe KC #20
<chillywilly> jcater: that did not fulfill the requirements, you are fired
<chillywilly> the boss was sondering why his app just stops when he click the shiny button
<chillywilly> sledge_: sorry they made me use it
<chillywilly> sledge_: yea, that's it ;)
<chillywilly> school forced c++ down my throat
<sledge_> chillywilly: these evil bastards! let them taste shit!
<chillywilly> now it's like a disease without a cure
<chillywilly> it's engrained in my DNA
<sledge_> look at this poor guy, they forced him to use C++!
<chillywilly> can you see why I am si fucked up now?
<chillywilly> please forgive me
<sledge_> "father forgive me, for i have sinned, i have used algol, fortran basic and c++"
<jcater> I thought it was the wisconsin water
<jcater> err, you mean
<chillywilly> nah, it's the tennesee whiskey bitch
<jcater> "Father, forgive me, for I have used Java"
<nickr> heh
<chillywilly> I have never used Java
<chillywilly> that's blasphemy!
<jcater> tennessee whiskey is da bomb d00d
<jcater> Jack Daniels, here I come :)
<sledge_> jcater: y'right. java is the most evil bitch of a programming language i ever saw. even fortran is more useful.
<chillywilly> yea, and it explains a lot of why you act the way you do ;)
<nickr> jack is great
<jcater> you mean why I'm able to tolerate certani ppl?
<nickr> all other whiksey is narsty
<chillywilly> jcater: tolerate this
<chillywilly> tolerate my singleton!!!
Action: sledge_ needs something to smoke
<jcater> sledge_: have a donut
<nickr> I got so drunk on jack this one time and then drank a 24 pack of heinaken... didn't drink for a while after that.
<chillywilly> jcater: are you creme filled?
<chillywilly> you donut nazi
<jcater> chillywilly: the ladies tell me I am
<sledge_> will the last one hour be a chapter in the next KC? :)
<chillywilly> I certainly hope so
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> nickr: rofl
<chillywilly> we need to spice that shit up
Action: chillywilly distributes the trout beating all around
<chillywilly> fuck you all
Action: nickr beats chillywilly with a halibut
<chillywilly> :)
<nickr> WHACK
<chillywilly> ouch
<chillywilly> you brute!
<nickr> Don't make me get out the herring
Action: ajmitch slaps nickr & chillywilly around with a salmon
<chillywilly> gawd I can't believe we argued about something so stupid for that long, wtf is wrong with you ppl!!!!!
<chillywilly> I have a life somewhere I think
<nickr> chillywilly: BULL SHIT
<sledge_> life whats that
<chillywilly> really I do
<chillywilly> I seemed to have misplaced it......
<chillywilly> fuck!
<ajmitch> chillywilly: this is your life...
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> how pathetic
<sledge_> chillywilly: fuck is your life?
<chillywilly> to fuck is divine
<chillywilly> or something
<chillywilly> ok, enough vulgarities (sp?)
<chillywilly> we don't want to scar the little ones
<sledge_> daddy?
<chillywilly> the onnecnt ones
<chillywilly> yes I am a daddy
<chillywilly> and you?
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> i'm a son
<chillywilly> http://goats.gnue.org/~chillywilly/photos/scotty.png
<sledge_> (of a dad, of course)
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> just for the record
<chillywilly> jcater loves the cocks
<chillywilly> er cock
<chillywilly> dneighbo cries like a bitch with a skinned knee
Action: jcater gets really worried when chillywilly uses jcater anc cock in the same sentence
<jcater> makes me not want to meet him at a developers convention
<chillywilly> you don't want that anyway, I will have a special trout for you
<nickr> jcater goes 'hrglbrglburf'?
<chillywilly> lol
<sledge_> head shot
<nickr> i have it on good authority that chillywilly bites the wax tadpole
<chillywilly> hey wtf does this shit mean?
<chillywilly> and nickr smokes pole
<sledge_> that was a good head shot
<nickr> what an odd thing to say
<chillywilly> def __call__(self, *args, **kw):
<chillywilly> what is *args and **kw?
<nickr> pointers?
<chillywilly> this is pythin d00d
<chillywilly> er, python even
<chillywilly> jcater: help!
<chillywilly> you python freak ;)
<ajmitch> variable length arguments
<chillywilly> one is a list
<chillywilly> the other is a dict/
<jcater> chillywilly: those are used when you don't really care what the user passes as arguments
<chillywilly> ?
<ajmitch> what jcater said
<jcater> for example
<jcater> if I have
<jcater> def myfunc(self, *args, **params)
<chillywilly> ooooh, examples
<jcater> and call it as
<jcater> myfunct(1,2, 'barf', type='notreally', parent="dad")
<jcater> then
<jcater> args = (1,2,'barf')
<jcater> and params = { 'type':'notreally', 'parent': 'dad' }
<nickr> whoa
<nickr> neat
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> nifty
<sledge_> like print?
<jcater> somewhat
<jcater> it's really useful in cases like: 
<jcater> class a: 
<jcater>   def __init__(self, parent, type, somethingmore): 
<jcater>    ...
<jcater>  
<jcater> class b(a): 
<jcater>   def __init__(self, *args, **params): 
<jcater>     a.__init__(self, *args, **params)
<jcater>     ...
<jcater>  
<sledge_> indeed, useful
<jcater> in this case you really don't care what the underlying constructor is
<jcater> and don't want to have to repeat any changes with any subclasses
<jcater> but each subclass needs to do something in their __init__
<chillywilly> it is like void* or something?
<chillywilly> pass anythgin you want
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> but I was giving you the typical usage
<chillywilly> uhuh
<jcater> but you can use it in cases like you said
<chillywilly> thank you
<jcater> e.g., to emulate a "print"
<chillywilly> o' python gawd
<chillywilly> master of the snake
<chillywilly> (ew, that sound svery homo)
<sledge_> master of the spam
<chillywilly> just for the record he love the snake
<chillywilly> loves
<chillywilly> I should watch JSBSB again
<sledge_> that's a brueller now
<chillywilly> brueller?
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (rm@62.47.45.104) left irc: "If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody"
<sledge_> well, a brueller. what's so hard to understand about a brueller?
<chillywilly> I dunno wtf a brueller is
<chillywilly> dict doesn't turn anything up
<chillywilly> so plz elaborate
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> ;P
<sledge_> it's something e.g. when someone makes a joke that I don't find funny, i say it's a brueller.
<chillywilly> so it's a word you made up?
<sledge_> it's a very basic word, hard to define, like god, soul, ghost (or python). it's not my invention.
<chillywilly> german?
<sledge_> yep :-/
<chillywilly> ok
Action: chillywilly just guessed form the .de
<chillywilly> er, from
<sledge_> .kraut *g*
<chillywilly> damnit  always type from as form
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> I have typing
<nickr> I will not buy this record, it is scratech.d
<chillywilly> I need a voice recognition IRC client
<chillywilly> yea, that's the ticket
<sledge_> "Iny davoice recog nithen eye arsy client"
<chillywilly> you teaching german now?
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> chillywilly: tip: IBM ViaVoice, German Edition ;-)
<chillywilly> but is it Free Software?
<dneighbo> um mommy i scraped my knee... waaaaaaaaaaaa
<chillywilly> hehe
<sledge_> no, but it's so funny that you know why all clever people prefer free software :)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you know what that's from right?
<chillywilly> JSBSB
<dneighbo> jcater: serious note, im ready to cry w/ reporting solution here
<dneighbo> have you formalized the 'tags' yet
<dneighbo> for NORMAL reporting?
<dneighbo> if so im ready to beta test
<jcater> speak of the devil
<jcater> that's what I've been working on last 2 days
<jcater> I wanna release reports 0.0.1 when we do forms/designer
<dneighbo> i will write an xsl for the output to excel
<psu> ack
<jcater> dneighbo: fwiw, I'm doing a "generic" tag format
<dneighbo> as im hurting here
<chillywilly> wtf us da matta wit you?
<jcater> that doesn't have to be the "formal" format
<ajmitch> hey psu
<chillywilly> s/us/is
<jcater> but I need something
<dneighbo> the report tool sucks so bad here
<jcater> that will demo what it will do
<dneighbo> ive dumped the data out to access (from olap)
<jcater> (and it'll be something useful, but not necessary the "real" thing :)
<dneighbo> and am using access to write a report and its SHIT
<jcater> as I need something here ASAP
<chillywilly> when are we going to get our olap backend dneighbo ;)?
<dneighbo> i would rather dump to postgres
<dneighbo> then use gnue reports
<dneighbo> and push to excel (thats what they build the budget book in and most of our reports are there)
<psu> cvs commit uses vi as default editor for changelog - which I've never used before
Action: jcater really wants to see an XML to XSLT converter :)
<psu> any vi min-gurus can help?
<psu> s/min/mini
<chillywilly> psu: set CVSEDITOR
<chillywilly> to emacs ;)
<chillywilly> or whatever
<psu> can I do that now, or is it too late?
<ajmitch> or nano if you want something easy
<chillywilly> just abort
<sledge_> it's late late, har har
<chillywilly> abort the commit
<psu> ctrl-?
<jcater> psu: just press Ctrl + Backspace a few times :)
<chillywilly> then set CVS EDITOR in your shell file
<chillywilly> :q!
<chillywilly> in vi
<chillywilly> er, CVSEDITOR
<chillywilly> is there an apply function in the python lib?
<chillywilly> apply()
<dneighbo> your samples true to life?
<ajmitch> probably
<dneighbo> if so i might try a convertor tonight to html
<chillywilly> i dunno where thet are getting this crap from
<nickr> jcater: you could use xslt for that
<dneighbo> from the output
<dneighbo> nickr it will be xslt
<dneighbo> pysablot
<jcater> I didn't say it couldn't be done
<dneighbo> want to write debs for it :)
<jcater> I just stated it'd be interesting to see
<dneighbo> pysablot that is
<jcater> nickr: yes, could you package pysablot.sf.net??
Action: jcater would be your best friend
<nickr> pysablot eh?
<jcater> or at least nicer to you than I am to chillywilly
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> jcater: I'm so deeply and emotionally scarred now
<chillywilly> I'll never be the same
<nickr> jcater: well shit, you already are that
<jcater> oh
<jcater> um
<sledge_> sablot rocks, use it all the day
<jcater> well, I'll share a donut and take you to Graceland if you're ever in town
<psu> woo hoo - cvs commit done
<nickr> hrm, that sounds like a really good deal
<psu> only took me 3 goes
<nickr> but why not use 4front instead
<nickr> which is already packaged
<jcater> sablotron plus the perl and php bindings are already in woody
<jcater> just no python bindings
<chillywilly> jcater, a donut? there's a difference between these things?
<nickr> I'll look at it
<chillywilly> I thought jcater was part donut
<chillywilly> and part AI
<sledge_> chillywilly: at least he has creme
<jcater> I've been told I'm quite tasty at that
<chillywilly> hey man my nick allows for much creme production ;)
<chillywilly> you keep them babies chilled ;)
<chillywilly> and you can fill up many holes with creme
<chillywilly> ok, that was pretty sick
<sledge_> chillywilly: "many holes" summed up or per girl?
<sledge_> okay, drop my last comment
<jcater> roflmao
<psu> kernel cousins headquote?
<jcater> topic change, please!
<chillywilly> #gnue-sextalk created
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> http://www.python.org/workshops/1997-10/proceedings/savikko.html
<chillywilly> you all should read this
<chillywilly> because it is great CS jerkoff material
<sledge_> chillywilly: the guy who talked about design patterns?
<nickr> chillywilly: oh baby
<chillywilly> sledge_: er?
<sledge_> chillywilly: not you, i mean the guy in the doc url you pasted.
<dneighbo> nickr mainly sablotron was used by me anyhow
<dneighbo> as its what mdean and i found to have best docs :)
Action: sledge_ has no open browser window, so he doesn't know what it is
<dneighbo> both beign new to xslt this was important :)
<dneighbo> we got it working for DCL
<dneighbo> and it seems very easy and simple to use
<chillywilly> dneighbo: I love you
<dneighbo> and has a plethora of bindings
<nickr> I was going to use sablotron at one time but then I found 4front which did everything I needed-
<sledge_> dneighbo: have you already found the xslt faq? -> www.dpawson.co.uk, *very* useful
<dneighbo> its in debian too, just not python binding
<psu> ok, I even closed my work order in DCL as well
<dneighbo> sledge_ i bout orielly's XLST
<psu> time for bed
<chillywilly> jcater: I....uh, yea...you know what I mean ;)
<dneighbo> er XSLT
<dneighbo> and find it suitable
<chillywilly> g'night psu
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<sledge_> dneighbo: it's a faq for those who already use xslt
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> cool
<sledge_> dneighbo: it gives some good advice on the more tricky issues :-)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: are you ignoring me?
Action: dneighbo loves you too
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> ok, I am all better now
<nickr>  gar
<nickr> motivation
Action: chillywilly injects nmotivational drugs into nickr
<nickr> that'd be useful
<chillywilly> class Singleton:
<chillywilly>     __single = None
<chillywilly>     def __init__( self ):
<chillywilly>         if Singleton.__single:
<chillywilly>             raise Singleton.__single
<chillywilly>         Singleton.__single = self    
Action: ajmitch tries a forced upgrade to wxPython 2.3.2.1
<nickr> I wonder if such a drug exists
<chillywilly> this will only work with python 2.2?
<ajmitch> dunno, who cares? :)
<chillywilly> :(
<sledge_> maybe
<chillywilly> you big meanie
<ajmitch> i know
Action: chillywilly head locks ajmitch
<ajmitch> finally, the wxPython demo shows up...
<sledge_> i go now, gnight
<ajmitch> night
<chillywilly> night
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<ajmitch> sigh, i have a rattling fan that sounds a lot like a dying hard drive :)
<chillywilly> btw, an example of a singleton is a wm object
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: chillywilly loves to beat a dead horse
<chillywilly> die!
[15:49] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
Action: ajmitch waits for chillywilly to shut up
<jcater> that's exactly what you are doing
<jcater> you dead horse beater you
<chillywilly> I know :P
<chillywilly> I Loooooove the hirse
<chillywilly> er, horse
<ajmitch> i'll get the SPCDH onto you!
<chillywilly> speka english please
<chillywilly> er, speak
<ajmitch> society for prevention of cruelty to dead horses
<nickr> chillywilly: stfu
<chillywilly> aaah
<jcater> yes
<jcater> stfu
<ajmitch> ok, i'll stfu now
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> never
<chillywilly> you must use your super ops power
<chillywilly> tis the only way
<ajmitch> sigh
<jcater>  /ignore chillywilly
<jcater> that works well, right?
<chillywilly> go ahead
<chillywilly> like I care
<chillywilly> I'll just talk to the real python gurus
<chillywilly> in #python ;)
<jcater> mwahahaha
<jcater> hahahahaha
[15:52] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<ajmitch> excellent
<jcater> mwahahaha
<chillywilly> hey they are very helpful
<jcater> oh, you're killing me
<jcater> hahahahaha
<ajmitch> now you've sent jcater off the deep end
<nickr> wow, its a lot quieter in here without chillywilly 
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<jcater> cool
<nickr> woops
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<ajmitch_> wb
<chillywilly> what do you do about an absatrct class in python?
<chillywilly> jsut don't instantiate it ;)
<dtm> hi guys
<ajmitch_> greetings dtm
<dtm> ajmitch_: shalom, my brother
<dtm> whatever that means.
<dtm> it's a good thing though
<ajmitch_> it means peace
<chillywilly> anyone?
<chillywilly> how to do an abstract class in python
<chillywilly> you can define an AbstractError to throw, but I am not sure that is a nice way to do it
<jamest> abstract?
<chillywilly> def abstract_method():
<chillywilly>   throw AbstractError
<chillywilly> you do not instantiate an instance of it
<chillywilly> it like a shape class and you derive all your shapes from it
<jcater> we usually don't distinguish between an abstract and a non-abstract class
<nickr> just say 'all shapes use this protocol'
<chillywilly> you only make instances of lines, ploygons, etc.....and shape defines various methods liek draw(), etc.
<nickr> and then make all your shapes do that
<nickr> or think of a base 'shape' and derive shapes from that
<nickr> like a point object
<nickr> that you subclass
<chillywilly> I suppose you habe to rely on people being good
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> jcater: please no sighing ;)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> THeres no point in abstract classes in python because all classes are polymorphic due to the message passing nature of them
<chillywilly> bare with me
<ajmitch_> hehe
<nickr> so as long as an object impliments the protocol, it doesn't matter
<jcater> python reinforces bottoms-up programming vs top-down programming
<ajmitch_> sigh
<chillywilly> ack!
<chillywilly> stop that ajmitch_
Action: jcater prefers not to "bare" anything w/ chillywilly
<jcater> ;)
<ajmitch_> sorry, was just thinking of bad joke related to your misuse of 'bare' and jcater's 'bottoms-up'
<ajmitch_> heh
<chillywilly> yea, keep your bottoms-up covered
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> sorry I am still in a C++ mode of thinking about objects
<chillywilly> I have to pythonize myself
<jcater> snap out of it, man!!
<chillywilly> I can;t help it
<chillywilly> it was spoon fed to me in college
<chillywilly> I'll get over it
Nick change: ajmitch_ -> ajmitch
<dneighbo> hey if in the south (now everywhere) they have white hanes tank top tee's that are donned offical 'wife beater' garb
<dneighbo> what is the outfit of the 'dead horse beater'?
<jcater> rubber gloves?
<nickr> I'm pretty sure a smock is involved
Action: dneighbo wonders if its a coincidence that az has a stark park called 'dead horse state park'
<dsmith> Someone should think up a humerous relationship between GNU Enterprse and Captain Kirk (or Picard)
<dneighbo> we already have jamest
<^chewie> blah
<dneighbo> as in Captain James T. 
<jamest> of the misfits in #gnuenterprise
<jcater> "To Boldly go Where Np Python Has Gone Before"
<jcater> s/Np/No
<dsmith> jamest: kirk
<dsmith> I like it.
<jamest> dneighbo: new trigger in a block
<nickr> Kirk's python has been many interesting places I imagine.
<jamest> <trigger type="pre-insert">
<dneighbo> woo hooo
<dneighbo> so i might have good testing material tonight?
<jamest>   self.fieldname.autofillBySequence('sequencename')
<jamest> </trigger>
<jamest> will replace old autofill syntax
<jamest> you'd better thank jcater for his spiffy new triggers :)
<jamest> l8r
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise.
<dneighbo> jcater you take thank yous in the form of bug reports right?
<jcater> I think that was a typo
<jcater> you meant "benjamins" and not 
<jcater> "bug reports"
<jcater> right?
<dneighbo> yeah you know xchat changes thins
<dneighbo> gs
<dneighbo> lie
<dneighbo> er like
<dneighbo> u to you
<dneighbo> dres_: to reinhard
<dtm> dneighbo: yeah that sucks
<dneighbo> benjamins to bug reports
Action: dneighbo is shining up 10 benjamins for jcater now
<dneighbo> http://www.daviscoins.com/images/coins/1956-franklin-p67.jpg
<dneighbo> i imagine a BF Half is probably like 4 or 5 bucks so maybe 10 is a few too many benjamins
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<Harald1> hi
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<chillywilly> wb jcater
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<jcater> thx
<chillywilly> wb jamest
<jamest> only for about an hour
<jcater> ack!
<jcater> only an hour?
<jamest> yip
<jamest> why the ack?
<jcater> the hour
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<nickr> ack
<nickr> nak
[18:23] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dnWork> g
<nickr> ack
<chillywilly> hi dnWork
<chillywilly> hi nickr
<chillywilly> ackity nak, don't talk back
<nickr> shift to the left! shift to the right! pop up! push down! byte! byte! byte!
<chillywilly> bah, mine was cooler because it is orginal
<chillywilly> yea, that's it
<chillywilly> ouch, ym toe still hurts
<chillywilly> s/ym/my
<chillywilly> I stubbed it
<nickr> you shouldn't stab your toes
<chillywilly> ouch
[19:18] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[19:18] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> stub not stab you ninny
<nickr> I'm no ninny you minny
<jcater> what's the skinny, ninny and minny?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<chillywilly> read this: http://www.salon.com/tech/books/2002/04/02/stallman/index1.html
<chillywilly> I like the end of that article
<jcater> he is not THE tide
<jcater> he is certainly a force to be reconned with
<chillywilly> reckoned
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> I knew that :)
<chillywilly> he's a leader I think that is what is meant, WE are the tide ;)
<chillywilly> Free Software advocates
<chillywilly> that is
<chillywilly> coders, etc.
<chillywilly> the 'MOVEMENT'
<chillywilly> so maybe it's not the best line
<chillywilly> ah well
<chillywilly> it's not too shabby compared to how most screw things up
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<Mr_You> re
<chillywilly> hi
<chillywilly> how goes it?
<Mr_You> going I guess
<Mr_You> yo?
<Mr_You> you?
<chillywilly> it's all good
<chillywilly> you still out of work?
<Mr_You> yeah
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<Mr_You> just applied for the extension
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> you will probably get it
<chillywilly> my buddy got it
<chillywilly> Mr_You: why not start up your own business dude?
<Mr_You> hehe
<Mr_You> I have 3 business models I'm putting in a local contest
<chillywilly> I know you sorta have somehting going
<chillywilly> business plans?
<Mr_You> yeah
<chillywilly> I am starting my own thing too
<chillywilly> just gotta set some goals and stuff
<Mr_You> its tough going I'll tell you
<chillywilly> dtm had been a big help and inspiration
<chillywilly> sure, I don't see it as being easy at all
<chillywilly> but life is never easy'
<Mr_You> I've got two projects to go for the computer biz deal..
<Mr_You> GNUe included in one of them
<chillywilly> well I am pouring my heart into GNUe and the new geas
<chillywilly> working on this thing right now
<Mr_You> thats great
<chillywilly> I should commit it to cvs
<chillywilly> I'l wait
<Mr_You> GNUe and Debian are the other two projects
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> Debian Jr.?
<Mr_You> that included yeah
<chillywilly> or just plain debian?
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I thought I remember you being a big debian junior guy
<Mr_You> Debian Jr. is really just encouraging packages to be included in Debian releases, etc..
<Mr_You> yeah I idle there consistently like here heh
<chillywilly> darn what is the command to set the column width in emacs
<chillywilly> I wish I could get it to stay
<Mr_You> I don't use it myself
Action: chillywilly has various hacks in his .emacs which don't seem to keep it
<dtm> chillywilly: yay
<jamest> anyone here have a source installed python?
<dtm> Mr_You: a contest?!?  COOL   DETAILS?!
<Mr_You> man looking in the wanted ads and seeing only "rotating shift for backup restorations" is depressing :-( heh
<jamest> or a non-debian python install
<Mr_You> yeah.. lemme find some of the cash prizes
<jcater>  I have a win32 install
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> hmm
<jamest> would --profile work there?
<dtm> Mr_You: hey for some encouragement, look at the press releases on http://echostorm.net for a contest my buddy was in.  not sure of the results.  he's the CEO of Echo Storm.
<jamest> i guess it would
<jcater> lemme check
<Mr_You> Preliminary Business Plan: Awards: 3 @ $10,000 each and 3 @ $2,000 each.
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<Mr_You> Comprehensive Business Plan Awards: 1 @ $50,000, 1@ $20,000, 1@ $10,000 plus 6-12 months 
<dtm> Mr_You:  hey hey
<jamest> it works!
<dtm> Mr_You: that's local only?
<jcater> ????
<Mr_You> yeah
<dtm> Mr_You: i have a 25 page first draft of mine :)
<jamest> i forgot I had a win32 install
<jamest> like I ever use that machine:)
<dtm> Mr_You: it's all complete except Executive Summary and a touch of financials which i dont have the track record for yet
<dtm> Mr_You: and which are relatively unimportant
<dtm> chillywilly: how are you today sir
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> not that it matters ;)
<dtm> Mr_You: refresh me on your business idea -- gimme the elevator pitch
<dtm> chillywilly: Oh, Eeyore!
<dtm> Bother.
<Mr_You> well
<dtm> chillywilly: watch Mr_You give the elevator pitch
<dtm> ;)
<Mr_You> first, I don't do that ;-)
<dtm> TIME'S UP  I'M NOT CONVINCED!!
<dtm> ;->
<dtm> lol
<chillywilly> heheh
<dtm> hehhehe
<Mr_You> but I'll just say that currently have a VPS hosting service, plan on GNUe and Debian products
<dtm> Mr_You: ok you just lost your first potential investment, pal!  ;>
<dtm> Mr_You: oh, it's that open source stuff, huh?
<dtm> yeah i heard that stuff's not good enough to sell, so they have to GIVE it away
<Mr_You> business model #2 is Aquaponic Farming, #3 is ecostruction.com consulting
Action: Mr_You doesn't want investments yet heh
Action: dtm imitates what's known in business parlance as the Hard Sell, aka "a jackass"
<dtm> h0h0
<jcater> ecostruction.com?
<Mr_You> yeah you gotta have some sort of name..
<chillywilly> you contruct buildings over the net ;)
<jamest> anyone running gnue on a non-debian system?
<chillywilly> nope
<Mr_You> it will involve aquaponic/grey water systems.. 
<dtm> Mr_You: hey man.  you can't send construction materials via tcp/ip
<Mr_You> and go beyond into dome construction
<jcater> coolness
<dtm> Mr_You: that violates so many zoning laws i can't even count!
<Mr_You> not if you do it right ;-)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> that's not too uncommon these days
<chillywilly> http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/
<dtm> ok well obviously Mr_You is too smart for us.  ok lemme talk to some business dummies so I can feel smart again.
<Mr_You> hehe 
<dtm> Mr_You: seriously, sounds awesome bro
<Mr_You> yeah, I can dream, lets see if I can produce
<dtm> Mr_You: i would like to cooperate in any way that's materially feasible :)
<Mr_You> maybe some of these "leaders" around here will believe in my vision too
<dtm> Mr_You: i'll be on your board of advisors
<jcater> Mr_You: what exactly is your "vision"?
<Mr_You> also, would consult on land restoration..
<dtm> jcater: he's got Magic Glasses
<Mr_You> dead parking lot?  turn it back "good earth"
<dtm> Mr_You: fantastic
<Mr_You> I'm guessing this is possible ;-)
<dtm> yeah we need more _good_ parkign lots.
<chillywilly> would you say python uses 'dynamic memory management semantics'?
<dtm> those dead ones are unsightly
<Mr_You> one cool think about an underground dome home.. for building codes.. just build in escape hatches ;-)
<dtm> Mr_You: dood   i want an ecologically sound home, virtually nonimpacting
<chillywilly> I suppose that includes garbage collection and such
<jcater> my favorite magazine is Mother Earth News :)
<dtm> Mr_You: i hear those are illegal in a lot of places just coz they're different
<chillywilly> I dunno just trying to figure out what the hell that means
<Mr_You> so my vision is to build provide consulting services on all aspects of construction from ecosystems to underground residential and commercial buildings
<Mr_You> dtm: heh
<jcater> I was reading up on alternate construction methods the other day
<dtm> Mr_You: do you have an Executive Summary for us bruh?
<jcater> such as sandbag constructionb
<dtm> Mr_You: you can trust us.
<Mr_You> nah 
<jcater> or tire construction
<dtm> jcater: yeah or recycled tires
<Mr_You> I'll offer it up as I make it complete for the contest..
<dtm> and windows that heat the house with solar power
<Mr_You> pending NDA is required
<dtm> you can make a house where one room is, in itself, the household heater
<Mr_You> get this.. fiber optic solar lighting
<dtm> Mr_You: wicked.
<Mr_You> 2-3 years off..
<dtm> Mr_You: how about grants so that the average Joe can make the initial investment?
<Mr_You> but basicly redirects the light through fiber optics to anywhere
<dtm> Mr_You: cool, 
<Mr_You> oh, and I don't think I mentioned it yet.. HUGE NEWS
<Mr_You> the Zero-Point/Free Energy patent has finally been issued
<Mr_You> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1406
<jcater> do any of y'all read JourneyToForever.org ?
<Mr_You> basicly the "Motionless Magnetic Generator" takes a small amount of energy and increases it
<jcater> on of my favorite bedtime reading sites
<jcater> s/on/one
<Mr_You> x100
<Mr_You> :-)
<Mr_You> or more
<chillywilly> wow
<chillywilly> that's cool
<Mr_You> eek nightmares jason ;-)
<jcater> Mr_You: ???
<Mr_You> that website
<jcater> ah
<jcater> I'm a freak
<jcater> I freely admit it
<jcater> I was trying to buy 40 acres a month or two ago
<jcater> to try some of the stuff :)
Action: jcater especially wanted to get some of those Muscovy ducks :)
<Mr_You> my dad has some land, but I wanna do it on my own
<Mr_You> tho it might be possible I build on it at some point..
<Mr_You> he has a nonworking farm rather
<jcater> I really wanted this farm
<jcater> I may still get it
<jcater> but the "estate" wouldn't budge
<dtm> hey if you guys come across an extra farm, lemme know and i'll consider it  
<dtm> like if they're givin' em away and stuff
<Mr_You> heh
<chillywilly> muscovy ducks?
<dtm> and if i can get broadband there
<chillywilly> a type of duck?
Action: jcater was actually goona get broadband down there
<Mr_You> direcduo.com I think ;-)
<dtm> seriously -- i was literally recently given an offer to move back to our ancestral homestead in Kansas for several years
<dtm> Mr_You: yeah
<jcater> I really want to homestead
<jcater> as long as I have broadband
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> I'm not joking
<chillywilly> gotta gte those prioriies in order ;)
<jamest> broadband additics
<dtm> well this one originally a log cabin built by German immigrants :)
<dtm> jcater: i wouldn't think for amoment that you're joking about that, sir.  :_I
<dtm> :-I
<chillywilly> poor jamest and I still live in dialup land
<jamest> 56k modems is good enough for 99% of kansas
<dtm> jamest: i wasn't a broadband addict when i was in KS though :)  i dialed into the Equinox data switch as 9600 7e1  ;)
<jamest> it's good enough for you
<jamest> :P
<Mr_You> dialup isn't bad, but I wanna get off the grid completely heh
<dtm> jamest: which was quite an upgrade from when i had to do it via Information Network of Kansas at 1200/2400 7e1
<chillywilly> wireless?
<jamest> dialup licks the bag
<dtm> Mr_You: yeah
<chillywilly> jamest: indeed
<Mr_You> wireless or satelite via direcduo
<chillywilly> jamest: but I could get a cable modem anytime
Action: jamest is in a horrid mood tonight
<chillywilly> I should get one
<jamest> but it shouldn't take 15 minutes to put 3MB
<dtm> chillywilly: you might come up with a hobby business plan to resell it to the neighbors wirelessly
<Mr_You> direcpc is talking about doing voice service... would seem logical to provide two way voice service with their two way net service
<jamest> which is actually pretty smoking for my connection
<dtm> chillywilly: take up a collection for a basestation, have them prepay for several months, and have them buy client equipemtn
<Mr_You> could use VoIP with direcduo
<dtm> Mr_You: last i knew, direcpc was very much latent and not realtime
<chillywilly> dtm: bah
<dtm> Mr_You: not to mention horrendous floating TOS
<Mr_You> it is.. so how do they plan to offer VoIP?  ;-)
<dtm> Mr_You: unpredictable enforcement of TOS
<Mr_You> but I think you can adjust something to lower latency.. and for voice maybe its good enough
<dtm> Mr_You: low throughput consumption caps
<dtm> Mr_You: oh
<Mr_You> this is a direcduo hardware solution
<chillywilly> is there an official python IDL binding?
<Mr_You> direcpc hardware solution first rather
<chillywilly> how many different Free python orbs are there?
<chillywilly> like 2?
<Mr_You> which isn't two way.. so I dunno how they will provide voice service except VoIP.. 
<chillywilly> python binding even
<chillywilly> I know there's ORBit
<chillywilly> what else is there?
<Mr_You> I guess you could do VoIP just to the switch with a dialup modem, but blah..
<Mr_You> right now, I'd like to find some land to restore and build on.. and maybe one day a mountain home
<dnWork> any good stuff happen
Nick change: dnWork -> derek
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<derek> wrong button
Action: derek is away: Reloading Crack Pipe
<jcater> :)
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<nickr> crack
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<ajmitch> hey jbailey
<jbailey> Heya ajmitch.
<ajmitch> what's up?
<jbailey> Not much.  I'm tired.  So instead of going to bed, I hopped on IRC.
<jbailey> Because you know that always helps. =)
<nickr> smarm
<nickr> er
<nickr> smart
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> i was stuffed after walking home for some reason (must be the 2 hrs of sleep i had). so i hopped on irc
<jbailey> Stuffed, like not hungry?
<ajmitch> stuffed being tired
<jbailey> Ah, cool.
<chillywilly> jeff
<jbailey> daniel
<nickr> jeffry
<nickr> woop
<jbailey> nickr: Try again.
<nickr> Jeffery
<nickr> Geoffrey
<jbailey> nickr: Not yet.
<nickr> Jefizar
<jbailey> Gah, *certainly* not Goofry.
<jbailey> I've had two people think my name was "Jazz" when I said it.  That's one I can cope with.;)
Action: chillywilly forgets what jeff's full name is
<nickr> Jeffinito
Action: chillywilly thinks
<nickr> Jeffitude
<chillywilly> lol
<ajmitch> dude!
<chillywilly> now you are just being silly
<nickr> Jefferino
<chillywilly> lol
<jbailey> chillywilly: I'm not sure I've ever publicized it. 
<chillywilly> it's nothign to with with jeff
<chillywilly> it has jeff in it
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> jbailey: you told me once
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<chillywilly> privately I bet
<jbailey> It's not even on my GPG key. =)
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<ajmitch> everyone knows my name
<chillywilly> ok, time to grep the logs ;)
<nickr> "grep the logs" if you know what I mean
<jbailey> ajmitch: "Cheers"?
<ajmitch> jbailey: sorry?
<chillywilly> bah
<jbailey> It's a sitcom in the US.  The theme song says "Cheers, where everyone knowns your name".
<ajmitch> yeah, i recall it now
<chillywilly> cheers was cool
<jcater> cheers was a gnue wannabe
<jbailey> Aside from that, I don't think I know your name.
<ajmitch> jbailey: that's bad
<jbailey> ajmitch: Sorry...
<jbailey> You're ajmitch, the Thugger from NZ!
<chillywilly> jcater: uh?
Action: ajmitch does /nick andrewm
<chillywilly> noooo!
<chillywilly> gawd no
<ajmitch> bbiab...
<jbailey> Was it something I said?
<jbailey> ;)
<chillywilly> I guve up
<chillywilly> wtf is your name jeff/
<chillywilly> ?
<nickr> Jeffisherizad
<nickr> Jeffishtolophanktalinalacta
<nickr> Battle Star Jeffilactica
<jbailey> Jeff-fish-plankton-galaktica?
<jcater> Jeff Carter?
<nickr> jbailey: No, Jeff-ish-tolo-phankta-lina-lacta
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> come on mr you must tell us
<nickr> Jeffohlomnitep
<nickr> Jefficotl
<chillywilly> it's a weird name that uses jeff for short, iirc
<chillywilly> ;)
<jbailey> The Jeff ioctls?
<chillywilly> man i have to remember now just because you are trying so hard to keep it from us ;)
<chillywilly> your name if jeffrin right ;)?
<chillywilly> j/k
<nickr> Jeffrimon
<jbailey> jofro?
<jbailey> (it's his wife)
<chillywilly> just tell us already
<nickr> no its a kind of pokemon
<chillywilly> I am sick of looking at my logs
Nick change: jbailey -> angie
<angie> ??
<angie> =)
<jcater> what are we guessing?????
<chillywilly> jeff's real name
<chillywilly> full first name
<chillywilly> jeff is just short for it iirc
<jcater> jbailey?
<chillywilly> he told me once
<chillywilly> yes
<angie> -I- know...
<angie> =)
<nickr> tch
<angie>  i should, I married the guy.  Although he doesn't answer to his full name.
<nickr> yea
<jamest> angie:  we're so sorry
<jamest> angie:  we didn't know how to warn you
<angie> I'm not
<angie> =p
<jamest> :)
<angie> lol
<jamest> i think i know
<jamest> well
<jamest> i think cheating and looking at the copyright assignment list may have given me the answer
<chillywilly> heheh
<nickr> I think jamest is a cheater
<chillywilly> you suck
<angie> I don't think he signs with his full name.
<angie> The only things with it arehis birth cert and marriage licence!
<angie> ]and passport
<jamest> dang
<jamest> i seems you may be right
<jamest> man
<jcater> well, we know his middle name at least
<jcater> "Debian"
<jamest> if the internet can't be used to find out things about people they don't want you know then what is it good for
<jamest> besides illegal mp3
<jamest> and warez
<jamest> and porn
<jcater> and terrorist communication
<angie> I can send you a piece of spam for some software to find out everything about everybody...
<jamest> i think i got that already
<nickr> and illegal export of crypto
<jamest> about 1234 times
Action: chillywilly must remember
<chillywilly> it's like an obsession now
<chillywilly> I must remember wtf jeff's real first name is
<chillywilly> I will not rest until then
<angie> jeff's a pretty real first name...
<chillywilly> ok, his FULL first name
<chillywilly> don't have to get all picky
<angie> I sometimes call him Jeffy to annoy hime =D
<jcater> is jeff an abbreviation of the first name? or is jeff like his middle name and the first name is unrelated? 
<angie> what's "warez"?
<chillywilly> it's s short form of his name
<chillywilly> his name has like a goeff in it or something word like that, iirc
<jcater> Jethro?
<chillywilly> er, weird
<chillywilly> hmmm
<nickr> Jethro Tull
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> he's awesome
Action: nickr sits on a park bench.
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I must go to bed now
<jamest> warez = prirated computer programs
<jcater> before the bedroom door gets locked
<jcater> nite all
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<nickr> jcater: you should geta  key to that
<nickr> dang
<jamest> those M$ Office for $1 type stuff
<chillywilly> lol
Action: chillywilly used to get locked out too
<chillywilly> women
<chillywilly> sheesh
<chillywilly> ;)
<angie> shall I respond...
<angie> no, not worth it.
<chillywilly> no need
<chillywilly> girls suck anyway
<jamest> sigh
<angie> =)
<angie> so do boys.
<angie> cooties
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<chillywilly> hey psu
<psu> yo
<jamest> man, on-line birth records aren't that good yet
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> I got eveyr one into the find jeff's full first name craze
<chillywilly> erm, everyone
<psu> is that "on-line birth" "records" or "on-line" "birth records"?
<nickr> I'm not
<jamest> it's not a variation of jeff right?
<jamest> that's the problem if I understand corrently
<chillywilly> logs are funny
<chillywilly> asimov.openprojects.net,#hurd.xchatlog:10:53:16 * chillywilly thwaps jbailey with a trout
<angie>  i don't want to hear about your "logs"
<angie> =)
<chillywilly> it's not jeffery
<jamest> there's so little of chillywilly you honestly would want to know about
<chillywilly> I know that
<jamest> if you did you wouldn't let him in here
<jamest> chillywilly: lol
<jamest> did you ask about jeffrey
<jamest> that's an alternative spelling
<chillywilly> it longer than that
<jamest> ah
<chillywilly> it's a weird jeff-derivative
<psu> jefferson
<angie> you got it!
<angie> jamest gets the prize
<chillywilly> uh?
<chillywilly> I thought it was something else
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> fuck this
<jamest> :)
<angie> Is it MY fault Jeff's particular about the spelling of his name?
<angie> I got it wrong a few times...
<angie> thunderstorms at home!!
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> you silly canadians
<jamest> my wife is named lindsay
<jamest> well most people think she is anyway
<chillywilly> don't even know how to spell
<jamest> lindsey is the correct spelling
<chillywilly> shutup jamest
<jamest> bothers her too when people always to that :)
<chillywilly> you're ruining my theory
<jamest> lol
<angie> at least we speak english.
<jamest> chillywilly: look at my spelling skilz
<angie> min two
<chillywilly> you so l337
<jamest> you'll have to have me reported before USA has a chance of winning
<jamest> re?
<jamest> deported
<chillywilly> lol
<angie> 1337?
<jamest> leet
<chillywilly> eleite
<chillywilly> er elite
<jamest> l33t sp3@k
<chillywilly> d00dz
<angie> Is this geek talk now?  
<jamest> the way a person talks on the net when they want to be known as a morron
<angie> maroon?
<angie> baboon?
<chillywilly> sheeeet
<chillywilly> niggie
<chillywilly> why is you trippin'?
<angie> biggie
<jamest> chillywilly was making fun of my sk1lz
<chillywilly> no, niggie
<jamest> no?
<chillywilly> we have now moved onto ebonics
<angie> Whenever I see (or hear) numbers interspesed with letters, my brain goes: computer talk" and switches off.
<jamest> lol
<chillywilly> 987987987lkjhlkjhkjh9887kjhky8kjhy98yhkjhyi9
<angie> It's a survival skill.
--- Fri Apr  5 2002