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<nickr> la la la
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<drochaid> plibble
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<drochaid> hey jamest
<jamest> hello
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<reinhard> hello j*
<jcater> morning
<ToyMan> morning all
<reinhard> and all
<jcater> how are things on the other side of the globe?
<ToyMan> heh, inbetween crashes evolution isn't a half-bad mail client..
Action: jamest blinks
<jamest> a pre 8AM jcater?
<jamest> what broke at work?
<jcater> my brothers car broke :)
<jcater> so I let him borrow mine
<jcater> and drop me off at work
<jamest> :)
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<drochaid> wb
<jamest> thanks
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<jamest> looks like a new unicode wxpython for win32 being put out for testing
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<ra3vat> jamest: yeah
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<jamest> hello
<jamest> ra3vat: you have a chance to try out the unicode wx yet?
<ra3vat> jamest: it does not work under w98 as w98 itself does not fully support unicode, i tried and it fails
<ra3vat> Arturas seems have w2k to try it under
<jamest> ok
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<dnSleep> toyman if you dont need calendar, todo's you might want to check out sylpheed
<dnSleep> much more stable than evolution much smaller footprint
<ToyMan> does sylpheed have a contact book?
<dsmith> Sylpheed does have an address book.
<ToyMan> and yes, I like those calanders and todo's..
<dsmith> Sylpheed also uses LDAP and can read palm Address.DB files
<ToyMan> hmm. cool.
Action: ToyMan portinstalls sylpheed.
<dnSleep> its not an outlook so im not advertising it as that
<dnSleep> but if you want a solid fast email client 
<dnSleep> sylpheed seems to fit that bill :)
<dnSleep> i had to drop to evolution for the wife
<dnSleep> as she really wanted to view html mail inline etc etc etc
<dnSleep> i've made my peace with how it works and rather like it now
<jamest> does it still eat mailboxes randomly?
<dsmith> Sylpheed is also easy to hack.  I munged mine to work through a web proxy.
<jcater> I use sylpheed personally and in our callcenter
<jcater> the users seem to adjust to it well
<jamest> mine didn't :(
<jamest> went back to netscape mail
<jamest> at least at one company
<jamest> here in math we use pine :)
<jcater> ah
<jcater> well I have more control :)
<jcater> I get to tell my users what they can do
Action: jcater is lucky that way
Action: drochaid returnethethetheth
<drochaid> does deb have any decent tools to help setup a DNS server for a noddy like me?
<jamest> drochaid: dunno
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<dneighbo> since its a long ways off i will ask early
<dneighbo> is there anyone willing to come to LWE SF in august?
<drochaid> LWE SF ??
<dneighbo> linux world expo san francisco
<drochaid> and, heya dneighbo
<drochaid> ah, not in the UK then :)
<drochaid> although I'm guessing me not being there isn't much of a loss
<jamest> i don't know yet
<dneighbo> jamest: just trying to give you all lots of lead tiem :)
<dneighbo> as it sounds as though AMD will give us facilities to present GNUe for 20 min every hour or so on their floor
<jamest> i got the mail :)
<jamest> i think
<dneighbo> which means if we want our own booth we will need more than one person there
<dneighbo> i am hoping to be able to make the trek
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<ra3vat> hello Arturas
<Arturas> Hello Dmitry :)
<Arturas> Hello everybody :)
<nickr> oogachaka
<Arturas> nightmare? :)
<nickr> ?
<Arturas> nickr: oogachaka
<Arturas> or does it mean something in English?
<nickr> Aiiiiiiiiii Hooked on a feelin!
<nickr> its some 70s song.
<dneighbo> Laba Afternoon Arturas 
<nickr> actualy I did have a nightmare, I dreamnt that I missed the boat to Jamaica
<drochaid> is that a bad thing?
<nickr> in tdhe context of the dream it was bad
<nickr> but my dreamself  was kind of nonplussed
<nickr> personally, I wanted to go to Jamaica
<drochaid> lol
<nickr> the funny thing is I was in Taiwan, which happened to be in Germany
<nickr> which of course is in close boating distance to Jamaica
<drochaid> uhm ....
<drochaid> I've got a spare white coat you can borrow if you like ...
<drochaid> look, it covers the hands and it's got these straps and everything :)
<Arturas> have rdesktop[linux] or 'terminal client' [win] ?
[12:30] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<Arturas> oh
<Arturas> sorry
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> good evening Derek :)
<Arturas> have rdesktop[linux] or 'terminal client' [win] ?
<Arturas> found new command-line option - how to put text from private into public - sorry for the flood :)
<nickr> drochaid: oh like you never have messed up dreams
<drochaid> absolutely never
<drochaid> all my dreams are completely sane %-)
<nickr> I think if that were true it'd be a sign of actual insanity
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<drochaid> nickr: I'm not insane .. I merely create my own plane of mental existance :)
<nickr> drochaid: thats what all the whackos say
<nickr> drochaid: lemme just give you this 500mg of thorizine
<derek> dneighbo:how do i log you out?????????????????????
<nickr> using nickserv?
<drochaid> ghost?
<drochaid> /msg nickserv ghost dneighbo <password>
<drochaid> or do you want more than just a kill?
<nickr> mutilate
<drochaid> lol
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<ra3vat> bye all
<Arturas> bye
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<dneighbo> you there?
<Arturas> who?
<dneighbo> derek 
<dneighbo> simply choose
<dneighbo> Desktop->Logout
<dneighbo> from the menu at the top of the screen
<dneighbo> it will take you to a black screen
<dneighbo> type the word exit
<dneighbo> and hit enter
<dneighbo> it then will say login:
<dneighbo> type laurie and hit enter
<dneighbo> then enter your password
<dneighbo> same as it used to be
Action: Arturas feels like he has landed on the moon.... and met some small green man....
<dneighbo> and it will say laurie@aegarus$
<dneighbo> and type startx
<dneighbo> and you are good to go
<nickr> heh
<jcater> hi laurie
<reinhard> l8r
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<jamest>  /msg jcater nows our chance to get someone to rm -rf derek's machine!
<jcater> hehe
<Arturas> :) bye :)
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<jamest> er, whoops, ignore that derek it was a typo
<jamest> :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> maybe we should get her to do a "glimpse jcater; glimpse jamest"
<jcater> to see what masta's "managing" for us
<jcater> ;)=
<nickr> gross
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<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> derek please ignore them
Action: dneighbo digs out his contact database and passes derek the home phone numbers for jcater and jamest....
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<drochaid> heya ^chewie
<^chewie> hallo
Action: ^chewie dislikes Office XP greatly
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> so far I resisted the urge to try it
<^chewie> I don't use it, I have to support it w/Citrix and samba
<^chewie> right now, I can't write to my home directory from the Word application
<^chewie> it just hangs
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<nickr> Citrix? eek
<^chewie> Citrix is better than the alternative...  Lots of windows boxen
<drochaid> no no no no no
<drochaid> you should have 10 windows boxes in every room :)
<^chewie> heh
<jamest> ^chewie: how new a samba install?
<^chewie> debian package version 2.2.2-2
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<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> i've not had the best luck w/ debian samba packages
<dneighbo> if you needed to smile today
<dneighbo> http://www.linuxlaboratory.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=2
<nickr> heh
<nickr> things like that still make you mile?
<nickr> smile
<nickr> they make me go 'heh' grimly but without suprise
<dneighbo> well i smile out of sheer horror i guess
<dneighbo> for me its amusing as i dont 'use' those things
<dneighbo> but my heart breaks for the mindless drones out there not yet aware that they are being led to slaughter ;)
<nickr> ah hah :)
<nickr> http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/9705/msg00444.html this kind of thing makes ME smile
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Action: nickr sighs
<nickr> Sodipodi could be so great
<nickr> its really close, ya know
<nickr> but so far
<jcater> it crashed on me every 5-10 minutes
<jcater> but it looks like it's gonna be great
<jcater> it'll be exactly what I need
<jcater> someday :)
<psu> i'm sure there are people out there saying just the same about us ;)
<jcater> I wouldn't blame them
<jcater> btw, I wasn't saying that in a negative way
<jcater> just a truthful way :)
Action: psu idelly wonders if he has enough air miles to get to SF for LWE
<psu> nope
<psu> only 15,000 short ;-)
<psu> oh, plus the whole of August is blocked for air miles redemption, too
<jcater> ouch
<psu> well, until the last week anyway
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<nickr> my my complaints are the inability to import eps images into a layout and I really, really like hov you draw paths in Illustrator, and it annoys me that gimp and sodipodi paths don't work the same way
<nickr> if those two things were fixed, I'd use it all the time
<nickr> They added gradient fills
<nickr> so
<nickr> its getting there
<nickr> heh
<dneighbo> is it just me or is BS_
<dneighbo> a great qualifier for table names ;)
<jcater> yeah
<dneighbo> TABLESPACE.BS_TABLENAME
<jcater> that should be the standard
<jcater> for all MANAGEMENT-related tables
<dneighbo> specifically
<dneighbo> BS_ACTUALS
<dneighbo> is funny ;)
Action: dneighbo has confirmed a BS_FUNDS exists
<dneighbo> does that qualify us for 'fraud'
<jcater> haha
<jcater> I guess BS would be appropriate for most budgets too
<psu> When I was a consultant on BusinessObjects 
<psu> we used to occasionally create tables or views for it 
<psu> used to have to prefix them BO_
<drochaid> psu: so you going to LEW SF then? ;)
<psu> if someone can find me another 15,000 air miles ;-(
<drochaid> I heard that you may have an urgent need to visit Namibia around 3 times a week for the next few months ... amazing what you get upto in your job ;-)
<nickr> I want to go to Namibia
<nickr> I like places that start with N
<psu> Nashville?
<dneighbo> Nogales
<nickr> Nigere
<nickr> Naples
<nickr> Niagra
<psu> Nantes
<nickr> Natal
<jcater> Nellie's Donut Shop?
<dneighbo> if you go to Nice i want in
<psu> Novgarod
<dneighbo> rofl
<nickr> Nice yes
<nickr> Nicaragua
<dneighbo> what about 'nova scotia'
<nickr> Nevada
<nickr> New York
<nickr> hehe
<dneighbo> or in psu's area
<dneighbo> nottingham
<nickr> Norway
<drochaid> Numpty Land?
<psu> newcastle
<dneighbo> ah ah
<dneighbo> Never Never Lan ;)
<drochaid> psu: don't swear!!
<dneighbo> der land
<nickr> hehe
<psu> either newcastle-on-tyne or newcastle-under-lyme
<nickr> Never Never land is were I live
<dneighbo> nickr can you spare some magic dust?
<psu> I nearly had an accident on the M6 once
<dneighbo> er pixie dust
<psu> going thru Staffordshire & sign said "Newcastle 18 miles"
<drochaid> just once psu?
<drochaid> that's pretty good for the M6
<psu> & I thought "no, can't be right"
<drochaid> lol
<psu> I tended to use the quiet bits of the M6 normally
<dneighbo> i think watching mold grow might be more entertaining than running a month lclose and auditing it
<psu> the bits that go up towards the jocks
Action: dneighbo should make the bloody accountants do the auditing ;)
<drochaid> I tended to use the M6 in all it's entirity
Action: dneighbo runs before psu can choke me ;)
<drochaid> long drive from Winchester to Glasgow :(
<psu> dneighbo: it;s like racoons, if you encourage them, it's your own fault
<drochaid> dneighbo: you can't trust an accountant to audit man!!
<dneighbo> psu what has happened it i would have them audit them
<psu> I did Winchester to Sunderland, which was bad enuf
<dneighbo> and like 8 months later i would get an exception to handle
<dneighbo> and it would be an utter bitch to fix
<dneighbo> or find supporting detail as to why it was CORRECT
<dneighbo> so now i do my own audits before i give them to the accounts
<psu> went M3-A34-M40-M42-M1-A1(M)-A19 just for the heck of it
<dneighbo> and document the ones they will flag, with little notes as to why i am right :)
<dneighbo> it has helped oddly enough
<drochaid> I normally did ...M3-A34-M40-M42-M6-M74-M73-many wee A and B roads to my door :)
<psu> M74 is a cool motorway
<psu> like they all used to be
<psu> i.e. no other traffic
<drochaid> especially at 3am
<drochaid> otherwise known as 120mph time
<nickr> crazy english modes
<nickr> er roads
<drochaid> nickr: *ahem* M74 is SCOTTISH :P
<drochaid> only a tiny fraction is in England
<nickr> okay okay
<nickr> crazy UK roads
<psu> not the first 100 meters
<nickr> :P
<drochaid> nickr: *ahem* M74 is SCOTTISH :P
<drochaid> not UK ;)
<psu> all dogs are animals, not all animals are dogs ;-)
<nickr> whatever.
<nickr> crazy island roads
<drochaid> accountants being the exception to that rule >:)
<drochaid> nickr: *ahem* M74 is SCOTTISH :P
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<drochaid> not Island ...oh, yeah :)
<nickr> now I've got ya
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> but then, the US is just a bigger Island
<nickr> much bigger
<drochaid> a little bigger
<nickr> and with many more whackos
<drochaid> it can still fit on my 17" screen :)
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<dneighbo> isnt an island surrounded on all sides by water?
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<dneighbo> i.e. the United States is not an island
<dneighbo> perhaps the continent but not the states
<nickr> good point
<dneighbo> mexico and canada prevent that
<dneighbo> an interesting question is
<dneighbo> australia is a continent that is an island
<dneighbo> as well as a country that is an island
<drochaid> dneighbo: but by the same rule ... no country in the UK is an Island either
<dneighbo> is there any island that is a city
<psu> Singapore
<drochaid> copenhagen
<dneighbo> drochaid i agree, i never called it an island
<dneighbo> i mean the only thing on the island is a city
<drochaid> copenhagen
<psu> Singapore
<dneighbo> interesting
<drochaid> lol
<nickr> I wasn't referring to any specific country when I said crazy island roads, but grouping all said countries into the group of islands that they comprise
Action: dneighbo thinks this group would do well on jeopardy
<drochaid> there's copenhagen and a small amount of farmland beside the runways
<nickr> I'll take obscure, pointless facts for 1000, Alex
<drochaid> PEGANI ZONDA!!!!
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<nickr> What is, something obscure and pointless?
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/europe/denmark/denmark.htm
<dneighbo> seems to prove your theory wrong
<drochaid> jamest and psu have something against a Pegani Zonda??
<dneighbo> it shows 5 other cities
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<dneighbo> however on that map
<dneighbo> it shows too other cities that are isles
<dneighbo> samso
<nickr> Denmark is a crazy country
<dneighbo> laeso
<nickr> I think Denmark should be illegal
<drochaid> dneighbo: they are multiple islands
<dneighbo> but this is good proof that isle cities exist :)
<drochaid> and the little pin prick they show as copenhagen actually runs most of that island ... you get a great view from the air
<drochaid> and superb views of the dolphins as you are only a few feet off the sea before you land :D
<dneighbo> singapore is most interesting and i think might fit the bill
<dneighbo> the things you can learn in #gnuenterprise is truly amazing
<drochaid> LMFAO
<drochaid> Junction 6 on the M6 is one of the worst places for speed cameras!!!!
<drochaid> I've NEVER managed to do more than 50mph there
<drochaid> even after midnight
<psu> i have an infallible method for avoiding speed cameras
<drochaid> normally 5mph is considered really really good
<psu> stick to the speed limit ;-)
<drochaid> don't speed?
<drochaid> most of the time, so do I
<drochaid> I've never gone more than 120mph .. ish .. anyway
Action: dneighbo is amused you speak in mph?
<dneighbo> instead of kph
<dneighbo> er kmph
<psu> any police officers monitoring this channel, please remember that irc logs are not valid in a court of law
<dneighbo> rofl
<drochaid> lol
Action: dneighbo is curious what is mph?
<psu> In the Uk, all road distances are miles
<psu> miles per hour
<psu> etc
<dneighbo> wow
<dneighbo> why then on US cars do we get guages that read in mph and km ph?
<drochaid> so that's about .. 190kmph ish?
<psu> most other weights & measures are metric however
<psu> As much as anything, I think the cost of changing every single road sign in the country
<psu> means things are unlikely to change
<drochaid> and the kmph doesn't fit exactly to the existing speeds
<drochaid> can you imagine the fights if the max speed ended up being 2 kmph lower than they are as mph? ;)
<nickr> they use Kmph in Canada I think
<dneighbo> nickr probably in europe too
<dneighbo> outside UK(ireland, scotland)
<nickr> yea
Action: dneighbo desperately wishes we used the metric system here
<dneighbo> purely for mathematical ease
<dneighbo> and 24 hour time
<nickr> the nice thing is you can use 24 hour time
<nickr> the metric system is harder to interoperate though
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> part of me wonders why we made timezones and such
<dneighbo> and instead dont just all run UTC time ;)
<psu> dneighbo: as a US politics geek
<psu> I always wondered why the people who basjhed on 
<dneighbo> though i suppose i see the value there much more so than the american weight and major system
<psu> about the "intent of the Founding Fathers"
<psu> never took this to logical conclusion
<psu> Constitution says pres & congress elections must be same day throught union
<psu> obviously to avoid people knowing other states' results before they vote 
<psu> in today's world 
<psu> to meet the FF's intentions
<psu> you would have to say same day & times 
<dneighbo> i agree 1000 percent
<dneighbo> as with internet and information stores
<psu> a bit unfair on the hawaiians,  I know
<dneighbo> news can travel so readily
<dneighbo> however as our last presidental election proved
<dneighbo> despite technology
<psu> but stops the "CA doesn't matter" syndrome
<dneighbo> our inept governtment takes up to 30 days to actually COUNT the votes
<dneighbo> personally
<dneighbo> the more i see of things and mroe i study history
<dneighbo> the founding fathers woudl abhor the US today
<dneighbo> i never think they intended for the federal govt to be so large
<dneighbo> and have such control
<dneighbo> iirc they were very pro independent state rule for most things
<nickr> yea
<psu> the problem is that states can be tyrannical as well
<dneighbo> in many ways i would like to return to that
<psu> & the federal constitution doesn't provide mechanisms for that
<dneighbo> as i think that the federal govt is turning largely into a joke
<nickr> its easier for the other stats to pressure a state into being less tyrannical than for anyone to pressure the fed into that
<psu> except, arguably, the 2nd amt
<psu> but shooting the governor is a fairly extreme solution
<dneighbo> i.e. it burns through cash like a dot com w/ an blank check
<dneighbo> and the states see little in return (imho)
<dneighbo> i.e. im always curious as to what i get for my 'tax' dollars
<psu> i am in a different situation
<psu> as working for a city council
<dneighbo> psu: i work for local govt as well
<psu> 80% of our income comes from central govt
<psu> the rest from a local property tax
<dneighbo> we get state funding
<dneighbo> but not really federal funding
<psu> we used to have a business property tax
<psu> but that was "nationalised"
<dneighbo> but my point is the feds seem wasteful
<psu> we have a bit more freedom now
<dneighbo> and bills are bull crap
<dneighbo> example
<nickr> the fed is wasteful
<dneighbo> here they do things by tying unrelated crap together
<nickr> no doubt about it
<dneighbo> for example i think there is a bill
<nickr> its too big and complex to be efficient
<dneighbo> actually i know there is a bill
<dneighbo> that sets a SMOG level number
<dneighbo> if a county goes over that level more than X times in a year
<dneighbo> they no longer get Federal Road Tax money
<dneighbo> to me those are UNRELATED issues
<dneighbo> i.e. they are indirectly related
<dneighbo> so the feds pay people to MONITOR this with the road money
<dneighbo> so my road money is being paid for environmental monitoring
<dneighbo> and further more
<dneighbo> the counties in fear of losing say 1 billion in road money 
<dneighbo> will spend 30 million on air quality items
<nickr> they use road money in the worst way
<nickr> like when states started wanting to get rid of the 55 limit
<nickr> the fed used road money to try to force them into keeping it
<dneighbo> and usually that 30 million comes from the road money
<nickr> like wtf?
<drochaid> what's the speed limit on the fastest roads US side?
<psu> didn't Idaho have a spped limit of "safe and sensible" in daylight hours for a while?
<psu> 65, iirc
<drochaid> mph or kmph?
<psu> 55 in urban areas
<psu> mph
<psu> that's why radar detectors are so popular ;-)
<drochaid> heh
<nickr> 75
<nickr> depends on the state
<nickr> actually the fastest roads iirc are in Montana, where I think they have conditional limits, eg you can go as fast as is safe
<psu> i knew it was somewhere up near the top
<psu> s/Idaho/Montana
<nickr> I believe in OR they post 65 but enforce condition based limits
<nickr> same with here in NY, they post 55, but you get pulled over for obstructing traffic at that speed
<nickr> probably the same everywhere
<dneighbo> again you bring the value man :)
<dneighbo> depends on state
<dneighbo> most INTERSTATES are 75 outside city limites
<dneighbo> in side city limits 65
<dneighbo> HOWEVER back to the value
<dneighbo> and my feds are evil rap
<dneighbo> the reason the speed limit is 75
<dneighbo> and some 65
<dneighbo> is federal funding
<dneighbo> TECHNICALLY a state can set their own limits
<dneighbo> montana for example has done this
<dneighbo> HOWEVER
<dneighbo> if you go over 75 you lose all federal funding from some grant
<dneighbo> montana's share of that grant was so small they didnt care
<dneighbo> but if you drop to 65 you get an additional bonus
<nickr> they're like 'fuck it, its cheaper for you to go as fast as you want'
<nickr> :)
<dneighbo> this kind of 'gaming' by the fed is what irrates me
<dneighbo> roadbuilding and highway safety to me are DIFFERENT things
<dneighbo> btw: this is sensitive to me asain AZ public transporation and roads SUCK
<nickr> they are great in OR
<dneighbo> my biggest gripe is that government is like a monolopy
<nickr> its the high property tax all of which seems to go to ODOT
<dneighbo> you are pretty much stuck with what you have
<dneighbo> and more things that are FEDERALLY controlled the more thats true
<dneighbo> if almost everythign was at local level
<dneighbo> i could VOICE myself by moving
<nickr> `yea
<nickr> truedat
<dneighbo> i.e. if OR roads were better than AZ roads etc
<dneighbo> its MUCH more feasible for me to move from AZ to OR than it is to denounce citizenship and leave the USA
<nickr> Truie
<nickr> very true
<nickr> if we had real distributed republics we'd be all set. :)
<dneighbo> to me feds are like microsoft because they control the OS and the Applications :)
<dneighbo> so they can make dumb rules like cited above for road building (application develoeprs)
<dneighbo> that lock the local govts into their 'way'
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<dneighbo> anyhow tirade off :)
<nickr> cause there is no other way to 'control' the states
<dneighbo> btw: as much as i am anti slavery and such
<dneighbo> i think much of the civil war was that the southern states felt they were being mandated things 
<dneighbo> and they did not want to relenquish state power
<nickr> Indeed
<dneighbo> i think the lesser states (the north) were sick of the successs of southern states and turned it into a slavery war (by name) but not by prinicple :)
<dneighbo> i.e. the north surely didnt employ the newly freed slaves
<nickr> True
<nickr> but it makes us feel good about america to say that it was to free the slaves and let the fed completely take over the US
<nickr> oh wait
<nickr> scratch that last part
<jcater> the biggest change following WWII was not slavery, but the move from mostly state-centric to federal-centric gov't
<jcater> hence the change in terminology
<drochaid> dneighbo: so how will GNUe take into account this changing speedlimit accross the US and more globally the world?
<jcater> err, WWII == civil war :)
<jcater> before civil war, we were "These United States"
<jcater> following civil war, we were "The United States"
<drochaid> ok, so it was a very poor atttempt at linking back with the chan subject :)
Action: jcater will go back to his coding hole now
Action: nickr closes the hatch behind jcater 
Action: nickr locks it this time
<dneighbo> rofl
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<dneighbo> a guy here that spoke recently has been in AZ since before it was state
<dneighbo> he said "the reason az wasnt a state 15 years earlier was the feds"
<dneighbo> the feds wanted to appoint the judges
<dneighbo> and az said F you
<dneighbo> we appoint our own judges
<dneighbo> finally he said after 15 years az got smart and a fellow said
<psu>  i thought the last mainland state was OK - 1912
<psu> must be a v old dude
<drochaid> any royalists here?
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<drochaid> I want to know if my joke is adviseable or not >:)
<nickr> Yea me. stupid revolutionaries. We need a queen damnit.
Action: psu is a constitutional monarchist, which isn't the same thing
<psu> Repeal the Treaty of Ghent *NOW*
Action: drochaid chooses to forget his joke ...
Action: nickr is denounced as a borgiouse mouthpeice of the overlords :(
<psu> it';s ok, I'm going to bed now
<psu> so say what you like
<drochaid> heh
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<nickr> the problem's plain to see: too much technology
<nickr> machines to save our lives
<nickr> machines dehumanize
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<drochaid_> aard'fuckin'vark
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<nickr> yep
<dneighbo> actually AZ became a state in 1912
<dneighbo> President William Howard Taft initially refused to sign the bill that accepted the Arizona Constitution, until the citizens of the territory removed a clause permitting recall of judges
<dneighbo> which of course only took 30 years :)
<dneighbo> finally wised up and found out
<dneighbo> get statehood 
<dneighbo> then immediately ratify your state constitution and put the clause back in :)
<dneighbo> which they did
<dneighbo> One of the first acts of the 1st Arizona State Legislature, was to place a constitutional amendment before the voters to add the recall of judges to the state constitution, changing it back to its original form. Voters of the new State of Arizona approved the provision for recall of judges and another amendment that provided women the right to vote in local, state and national elections.
<nickr> Heh
<nickr> sweet
<nickr> Az also has the sane daylight savingns thing.
<drochaid> isn't sane a scanner driver?
Action: drochaid rejoins the conversation ... in a completely useless fashion
<nickr> Heh
<nickr> yes
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<nickr> Sane is rather excellent too
<drochaid> hey chillywilly
<drochaid> I wish I could find drivers for my uds11 scsi card
<drochaid> I still like my umax S6 ... but I need to get another scsi card for it first#
<nickr> EDS11?
<nickr> UDS11
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> ah
<nickr> I have a Sybologics 53c875j
<nickr> Symbologics?
<nickr> Symbios Logic
<nickr> ah hah
Action: drochaid passes nickr another beer
<drochaid> that your 6th tonight then? >:)
<chillywilly> what about me?
<chillywilly> I need beer
Action: drochaid chucks the 6 pack at [ahem, to] chillywilly
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> mmm beer
<nickr> I don't have any beer :(
<drochaid> beer sucks
<drochaid> get some wine man ;)
<nickr> I do have copious amounts of hard liquoer though
<drochaid> it's frozen?
<nickr> No
<nickr> its just very alcoholic
<drochaid> ah, like a really good wine then
<nickr> Well
<nickr> Wine is much better
<nickr> because it actual[ly tastes good
Action: drochaid boogies on down to jazz fm via media player
<nickr> and makes you feel nice
<drochaid> that depends on the wine ;)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> well
<nickr> true
<chillywilly> media player, bah
<nickr> say a nice merlot
Action: chillywilly troutslaps drochaid
<drochaid> no choice chillywilly, the fuckers only make it available via media player
<nickr> a couple bottles of it and your whacked out
<drochaid> unless you can get it working on X for me?
<chillywilly> then ban them
<chillywilly> don't listen boycott them ;)
<drochaid> http://www.jazzfm.co.uk/
<drochaid> click the listen to option
<drochaid> get it working on X for me :)
<chillywilly> jazz sucks anyway
<chillywilly> ;P
<drochaid> as far as boycotting goes ... I ordered a DAB today so I could get Jazz FM up here
<drochaid> oh wait ... the DAB only works via windows >:)
<chillywilly> DAB?
<nickr> drochaid: there are a lot of jazz shoutcast stations
<drochaid> digital audio brodcast
<nickr> or icecast
<drochaid> nickr: aye, but the quality SUCKS
<nickr> uh
<nickr> based on what metric of sucks?
<nickr> A 128k stream sounds really good
<drochaid> as in, nowhere near the quality of digital radio or a cd
<chillywilly> only thing I listen to streaming is TheLinuxShow
<drochaid> nickr: actually, I should try the ones you know of before condeming then
<drochaid> got any addies to hand?
<nickr> I don't listen to Jazz.
<nickr> It sounds like ass.
<nickr> Except for Acid Jazz
<nickr> that shits cool
<chillywilly> who does ;)?
<chillywilly> rofl
<dneighbo> nickr :GNUe, It doesnt smell like ass.
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> good one
<chillywilly> GNUe, it licks ass
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<chillywilly> uh oh
<chillywilly> it's that crazy man
<chillywilly> I thought I just left you?
<chillywilly> sisters must die
<chillywilly> alright that's enough of this shit
<drochaid> sisters must die?
<drochaid> poor poor sisters
<drochaid> long live the sisters i say unto thee!!
<chillywilly> well when they hog bandwidth they should be put to death
<dneighbo> hmm wonder if jcater/jamest plan on returning
<nickr> my personal theory is that jcater and jamest are the same person
Action: chillywilly adds a filter to his firewall
<drochaid> dneighbo: I think they are still hiding in fear of the Pegani Zonda I mentioned :)
<nickr> Pegani Zonda is something I have nightmares about
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> is it in Germany? ;)
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<drochaid> has anyone played with DVD-Audio yet?
<drochaid> wb chillywilly_
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<nickr> DVD Audio is evil
<drochaid> uh, why?
<nickr> because CD is an open format
<nickr> but DVD is constrained by CSS
<drochaid> CD isn't an open format
<drochaid> it's tightly controlloed by philips [who created it] and matsushita-panasonic
<drochaid> what's CSS?
<drochaid> rings a bell, but can't place it
<nickr> Its a coding method that is supposed to prevent you from playing out-of-region discs 
<nickr> so they can restirct markets
<nickr> and also to guarantee that they get royalties from decoding hardware
<drochaid> yeah, I thought I knew it
<nickr> Its very easy to circumvent, but unfortunately that is illegal in mayn countries
<nickr> well in a few at least
<drochaid> philips gain a royalty from every CD sold
<nickr> phillips' thing is non-intrusive though
<nickr> CSS is exteremly intrusive
<drochaid> true
<drochaid> but I'm more interested in the quality of DVD-Audio than the politics to be honest
<nickr> Heh.
<nickr> I'm more interested in not breaking the law to listen to or copy something I bought.
<drochaid> If I cared that much about politics, I'd never visit the US, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal ... in fact, I'd have to leave the UK as well
<nickr> Eh who am I kidding
<nickr> I ignore that law pretty much.
<drochaid> lol
<nickr> I've watched DVDs on my linux box in violation of the DMCA
<drochaid> I'm just glad that the DMCA is still illegal in most countries
<nickr> Yea.
<drochaid> there is a UK law proposed very similar to it, but it's in direct contravention of the European Human Rights Act
<drochaid> so it will fail :)
<nickr> have you read that thing?
<drochaid> the Prime Ministers wife is one of the solicitors fighting it
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<nickr> It allows almost all of the paragraphs to be overridden
<nickr> its ballsless
<drochaid> it doesn't
<drochaid> it stands clear on most of the issues
<nickr> maybe i don't speak english so well, but thats what I read
<drochaid> and it's very difficult for a single government to override any aspect of it
<nickr> all the paragraphs have something akin to 'unless this law goes against local convention' etc
<drochaid> yes, pre-existing convention
<dneighbo> hey re my earlier political holy war
<dneighbo> maybe im not for state authority
<dneighbo> as it would encourage M$ to own more than redmond
<nickr> I'm for no authority
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<dneighbo> we might see Billdom or Gatesville or such as a state ;)
<drochaid> you can't simply insist that 16 or so countries with different ethnic makeups and traditions alter to suit a new central european law
<chillywilly_> political holy war?
<drochaid> but you can get them to work towards it
<drochaid> lol dn
<drochaid> eighbo
Action: drochaid prods dnSleep
<drochaid> you really sleeping dood?
<dneighbo> chillywilly_ read the logs
<dneighbo> drochaid dont wake me up
<drochaid> heh
<dneighbo> or derek might get mad ;)
<drochaid> not you, that tosser over there, dnSleep ;)
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<chillywilly_> dneighbo: no
Action: dneighbo feels bad as poor psu will have to wade through the logs, er wait i think he was partaking in that discussion 
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<nickr> yea he was
<nickr> since he's so into US politics and all
Action: drochaid stifles a laugh
Action: nickr puts drochaid in the airlock
<chillywilly> hmmm, my filter is not working
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -s 192.168.1.3 -j LOG --log-level 5 -m limit --limit 20/minute
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -s 192.168.1.3 -j DROP
<chillywilly> shouldn't that drop all packaets form this address?
<chillywilly> er, from
<chillywilly> maybe I am smoking crack
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<dneighbo> speaking of crack smokers
<drochaid> wb jamest
<drochaid> I didn't believe a word of what dneighbo was saying about you
<drochaid> no one can be THAT mentally impaired and go on as if he's a real person ...
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Action: drochaid hides behind dnSleep
<jamest> drochaid: you'd be supprized
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<drochaid> heh
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> bbl
<drochaid> cya
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<nickr_> ah
Nick change: nickr_ -> nickr
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
Action: drochaid is almost away: bed
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<drochaid> did you amputate its legs? :o
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:17:00)
<chillywilly> lol
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<nickr> I'm on a mexican radio
<chillywilly> hola
<nickr> hola seņor, como esta?
<chillywilly> how did you get that backwards R/
<chillywilly> ?
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<jcater> yo yo yo
<nickr> chillywilly: you have a koi-r or some other charset, not latin1
<nickr> chillywilly: check the encoding hte font you chose
<nickr> chillywilly: you want iso8859-1
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<drochaid> wrong button
<nickr> in iso8859-1 its a niņo
<jcater> nickr: you a debian guru?
<jcater> can debian do ftp or http based installs?
<jcater> i.e., can I just download a root/boot disk
<nickr> yep
<nickr> well
<jcater> cool
<chillywilly> yeppers
<nickr> theres a 4 disk
<nickr> sort of thing
<nickr> jcater: you have to have the kernel drivers too
Action: chillywilly did a net install with the woody floppies
<nickr> so you have rescue, root, 1+n driver disks
<chillywilly> yep
<nickr> jcater: its better to use the netinst CD image
<jcater> I actually have an install cd
<jcater> but not at this location
<nickr> grab the netinst CD, 30 megs of pure pleasure
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Action: drochaid just realised he forgot to burn the netinst cd today
<drochaid> DOH!!
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater not have a CD-R here
<drochaid> /dcc jcater spare cdr
<jcater> if I partition a 30Mb spot on the HD and copy the netinst image there
<jcater> will it boot?
<chillywilly> how would you boot strap it?
<drochaid> floppy? :)
<chillywilly> I would just for for the floppies jcater
<chillywilly> it's pretty painless
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater dusts off his 6 yr old floppies
<jcater> (the newest he can find)
<chillywilly> nah, use the new woody ones
<chillywilly> they have a 2.4.x kernel on them
<drochaid> wooden floppies?
Action: chillywilly digs for the url
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<chillywilly> http://http.us.debian.org/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.22-2002-04-03/images-1.44/
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> better yet
Action: jcater is debating on whether to put debian on my brother's computer or not
<chillywilly> http://http.us.debian.org/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/3.0.22-2002-04-03/images-1.44/bf2.4/
<chillywilly> those are the 2.4 ones with ext3, etc.
<jcater> cool
<jcater> do I need all 4 driver disks?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> it reads them all in
<jcater> so I need 6 disks
<jcater> damn
<chillywilly> then you get to load modules form the menu
<chillywilly> er, from
<jcater> that's almost worth the driver to the office and back :)
<jcater> s/driver/drive
<chillywilly> not after you make them once ;)
Action: chillywilly has 2 floppy sets
<chillywilly> you don't live that farthough, do you?
<jcater> 2.5 miles
<chillywilly> sheeet
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> wassa matta?
<jcater> yet another google search that points back to us
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> search for XSLT postscript
<jcater> on google
<jcater> we are first
<jcater> :)
<jcater> of course, that doesn't help me
<chillywilly> hehe
<jcater> if you dig into python much, you'll quickly see that a lot of advanced topics point back to us
<chillywilly> cool, I discouraged my sister so much with my filter that she turned off the computer bnecause I can't ping it anymore ;)
<jcater> almost every wxPython search you'll do will point back to us
<chillywilly> and I can surf the web now
<chillywilly> okie dokie smokie
<nickr> asomeone needs to write a FO engine in python
<nickr> s/someone/jcater/
<jcater> I was about to ask if that'd been done
<chillywilly> FO?
<chillywilly> fuck off?
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> as that'd been really useful right about now
<chillywilly> uh?
<nickr> Formatting Objects
<nickr> there needs to be a good free FO impl that converts to PDF/PS/TeX
<Mr_You> re
<chillywilly> formatting python objects?
<Mr_You> seems google is slightly interested in an API for their search engine
<chillywilly> or you mena objects that write those formats?
<jcater> http://xml.apache.org/fop/output.html
<Mr_You> considering SOAP
<chillywilly> er, mean
<nickr> yes
<nickr> chillywilly: no, its an XML format for typset output
<chillywilly> hey what's a good utility for making an md5 sum?
<chillywilly> what do the debian guys use?
<chillywilly> or anybody using GNU/Linux for that matter ;)
<nickr> md5sum
<nickr> md5sum doesn't make the same kind of sum that the raw md5 algo makes though
<dsmith> what nickr said
<nickr> like if you're interacting with a pop server
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> dammit
<jcater> fop was originally prototyped in python
<jcater> then converted to java
<jcater> argh!!!!
<jcater> dumbarses
<nickr> gar
<nickr> that sucks
<nickr> python has all the needed tools to generate the output formats
<nickr> even Flash!
<chillywilly> this is to make md5 sums of files
<chillywilly> to prove they have not been changed or made into mp3s ever ;)
<nickr> yea md5sum is good for that
<chillywilly> wtf is the package name for md5sum?
<chillywilly> apt-get install md5sum doesn't work
<nickr> its in dpkg
<chillywilly> ok
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<javaguy> Evening, folks
Action: jcater is cursing java's name at the moment
<jcater> might wanna change your nick
<jcater> :)
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> howdy
<javaguy> It happens... ;)
<javaguy> Is derek here/awake
<jcater> um
<jcater> he hasn't spoken in last hour or so
<jcater> so I'm not sure
<jcater> you never know w/him
<jcater> :)
<jcater> he's a voyeurist
Action: javaguy wanted to run past an idea re: porting GNUe business objects to XSD
<javaguy> well, that's a bit more than I needed to know... ;)
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<javaguy> Argh!  Pressed the wrong button
<jcater> xsd?
<jcater> url?
<javaguy> XML Schema Definition
<jcater> ah
Action: jcater thought xml schema was a replacement for dtd
<jcater> how does that relate to business objects?
<javaguy> the Primer (the first part of the RFC, which is divided into three parts) is at http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/
<javaguy> XML Schema is being used to replace DTD's, but that's only one use
<javaguy> Basically, you have an XSD (schema definition), which describes a complex structure, and then you have an XSI (Schema Instance) for each instance of said structure
<nickr> xsd is rather general
<javaguy> It also provides support for alot more complex structure than could be supported through DTD's
<chillywilly> our schema language should be ODL as that's the purpose of it, to describe the schema of an ODMS (which include object application servers)
<javaguy> i.e., enumerations, sequences, patterns
<chillywilly> but that's just me :P
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> it's like IDL + some stuff
<nickr> I think all object definition systems are masturbation
<nickr> the running dogs who disagree with me will be the first against the wall
<chillywilly> nickr: show us the way then
<javaguy> CW: ODL seems to make the most sense for internal definitions
<chillywilly> well I need to really get myself into some more of the xml voodoo
<chillywilly> but I ain't there yet
<javaguy> If you want GNUe to interface with .NET services, SOAP, etc, ODL is not going to do you much good...
<chillywilly> ah, but we have a layer to do remote communication protocols
<dsmith> Axtually, XML is bogus.  You guys should be using S-expressions instead.
<nickr> yes, sexp!
Action: javaguy has never heard of S-expressions
<chillywilly> ODL is internal ;P
Action: nickr hits javaguy with The Lisp Programming Language by Guy L. Steele, jr.
<nickr> blammo
<dsmith> There is an RFC somwhere.  By one of the guys who did RSA encryption.
<javaguy> Ow!  That thing's heavy, nickr!
<nickr> I have a copy of it actually
<nickr> its really good
<nickr> The Silver Book
<dsmith> http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/sexp.html
Action: chillywilly procedural langauges are for people that think backasswards
<chillywilly> woops, no /me
<nickr> chillywilly: you mean functional languages, don't you?
<chillywilly> xml and xslt are wannbe sexps
<chillywilly> no nickr
<chillywilly> power to lisp!
<chillywilly> j/k, yea I meant functional
<chillywilly> my bad
<dsmith> But dep down, chilly knows what's right.  THat's why it slipped out.
<chillywilly> seriously though
<chillywilly> I saw a paper/talk about someone saying just how closely related functional langauges/programming are to xml/xslt
<chillywilly> they contain the same principles
<chillywilly> operations on data
<chillywilly> i.e., they are functional
<dsmith> Right.
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<dsmith> People hate parens though, so they use < and > instead.  But there are twice as many now! Arrrhhh!
<chillywilly> lisp fucks with my head
<javaguy> CW: how does this transport layer work?
<nickr> heh
<chillywilly> javaguy: it's an RPC abstraction
<nickr> lisp is tricky if you learned procedurally
<chillywilly> well unfortunately I did indeed learn procedurally
<chillywilly> so lisp makes my head spin
<chillywilly> I have a paper called why functional programming
<chillywilly> or somsething like that
<chillywilly> I never made it through the whole thing
<javaguy> Ok.  So if I am writing, say a .NET service (I'm not, but for argument's sake, let's say I am), how do I go about finding out what services a particular GNUe implementation exposes?
Action: dnSleep shoves jcater
<chillywilly> dunno, dude we don't have DotGNU integration yet....juets ways to call methods remotely
<dnSleep> xslt is mine
<chillywilly> ;)
<dnSleep> go play python
<jcater> dnSleep: you better get busy, boy
Nick change: dnSleep -> dneighbo
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> im gnueing tonight
Action: chillywilly is too
Action: jcater too
<chillywilly> (sorta anyway)
<dneighbo> is that soon enough :)
<dneighbo> i will get html done
<dneighbo> for your sample
<dneighbo> i.e. and html.xsl
<dneighbo> for the tags in your sample
<chillywilly>  Python ODL
<chillywilly>   
<chillywilly>     OMG IDL Binding Overview
<chillywilly>       - since python/ODL binding is based upon the OMG python binding,
<chillywilly>       we include here some descriptions of the important aspects of the
<chillywilly>       IDL binding that are needed in order to better understand the ODL
<chillywilly>       binding that follows
<chillywilly> wooo@
<jcater> gak!
<dneighbo> so you can focus on other things for the moment
<jcater> why is OMG stuff mysteriously appearing in here?
<jcater> I thougt it was #gnuenterprise
<jcater> not #objectLustersAnonymous
<dneighbo> rofl
<chillywilly> just beacss the mappings are similar in describing the objects
<chillywilly> odl is idl-like and so is our current gcd
<chillywilly> and we even use stinking corba right now
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> woooo
<jcater> well, ok
<jcater> but we are doing XML right?
<jcater> right?
Action: jcater punches chillywilly's shoulder
<jcater> right?
<chillywilly> yea, sure but either way you will use the same things to describe the objects
<javaguy> hello, Derek
<chillywilly> attributes, operations, exceptions, etc.
<chillywilly> whihc should map to python code
<chillywilly> in some fashion
<chillywilly> I like how the IDL thing handles 'modules' and 'interfaces' and how the layout the python packages
<chillywilly> it creates a namespace for us
<chillywilly> it's kinda nifty
<derek> hi
<chillywilly> ello masta
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
<chillywilly> uh oh
<jcater> woohoo
<chillywilly> but I am being a good slave
<jcater> this morning, reports was kicking my arse
<chillywilly> honest
<jcater> now, the tables are turned
<jcater> mwahahaha
<chillywilly> woooo
Action: derek gets his XSLT book off the shelf and blows the dust off it
<derek> jcater: is it safe to slurp cvs for reports?
<jcater> um
<jcater> give me 2
Action: derek starts choking down some pasta while he waits
<dneighbo> grrr i know i have asked this before but i forget
<dneighbo> what is the command to remount a mount already in fstab?
<jcater> you "marry" it
<jcater> :)
<jcater> not sure
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> um if you marry it your chances of 'mounting' it dim significantly
<jcater> well, it's a catch 22
<jcater> :(
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<chillywilly> hey hey just the man I wanted to see
<dyfet> uh oh
<chillywilly> dude gnu common cpp v2 is fucked on my system
<dneighbo> mount -a 
<chillywilly> either my example program crashes or it does nothing
<dneighbo> that is sad, get over it an use python :)
<dyfet> lol
<dneighbo> dyfet: like how it couldnt be CHILLY's program, but rather its gnu common cpp ;)
<chillywilly> it's been this way ever since I poseted that one time
<chillywilly> well why does it work fine with an older version dneighbo?
<dneighbo> um you havent fixed your program to work with new version?
<chillywilly> yes I have
<dneighbo> why does my old contact.gfd form not work?
<dneighbo> it worked with the old forms :)
<chillywilly> spent a 15-20 changing all the method names
<dneighbo> answer my form is broken :)
<chillywilly> no way man I think it's a debian unstable issue ;)
<chillywilly> yea, that's it
<chillywilly> I blame it on glib
<chillywilly> er, glib
<chillywilly> c
<crazymike> sup
<chillywilly> sup niggie
<derek> grrr only pepsi left in the house
<derek> anyone want to trade?
<jcater> gak!
<jcater> no thanks
<jcater> I'll stick w/the big red monopoly
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> pepsi rules
<jcater> sigh
<derek> only thing worse than pepsi is pepsi one ;)
<jcater> reports decided to kick my butt again
<chillywilly> pfffft
<jcater> give me a minute to regroup
<derek> can i check out cvs?
<chillywilly> coke licks balls yo
<chillywilly> derek: never
<chillywilly> you've been banned
<jcater> give me a minute to regroup
<derek> if i could find a soda that licked my balls, they surely would get my business
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> everclear will kick your balls
<jcater> not quite the same
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<nickr> no
<nickr> not quite the same at all
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<chillywilly> bah, dyfet is such a wimp
<chillywilly> ran away like a little girl
<jcater> derek: reports is at your disposal
<jcater> committed
<derek> cool
<derek> you are using pysaboltron?
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<derek> er pysablot
Action: jcater hasn't used any XSLT yet
<jcater> but since nickr got me debs
<jcater> I have it installed
<jcater> :)
<jcater> I was gonna play w/it tonight
<jcater> but someone shoved me and told me to stop
<jcater> you irc bully
<jcater> ;)
<derek> cool
<derek> just making sure
<jcater> are you just doing html?
<derek> foobulations still the best sample
<jcater> s/best/only
<derek> um for now just doing an html.xsl sheet as it should be easy
<derek> then i think i might make a gnumeric one
<derek> if i get VERY brave i will look at a formatted objects one
<derek> which will segway into ps, pdf etc
Action: jcater wants a text one, too
<jcater> I can do it tho
<derek> just raw text
<derek> no problemo
<derek> probably hardest part of that will be remembering the &foo; equiv for a new line
<nickr> we need an FO engine
<jcater> nickr: you volunteering?
<jcater> btw, how does everyone feel about standardizing on SVG for dynamically generated graphics
<jcater> (i.e., charts, etc)
<nickr> Hm.
<nickr> No I'm not volunteering. I'll be contented to be the local debian guru. :)
<derek> um grrrr
<derek> i feel good about svg
<derek> but i claim to know little :)
<derek> jcater: let me re run sample, i think i have questions :)
<jcater> grrr?
<derek> what is the -outfile param again
<jcater> -p
<jcater> or --destination
<derek> ?
<derek> -p or --destination 
<derek> seems like an odd choice :)
<jcater> well
<jcater> -d is taken for "debug"
<jcater> which I no longer like
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater is wanting to talk w/jamest about that
<derek> -p for put er there
<jcater> I personally don't think a single-letter parameter should be available for debug
<jcater> -p for printer
<derek> ah
<nickr> why not -o ?
<nickr> svg is a good format
<derek> my question is this
<derek> <?xml version="1.0"?>
<derek> <GNUe-report-output>
<derek>   <GNUe-report-request>
<derek>     <GNUe-request-parameter name="end">04/30/2002</GNUe-request-parameter>
<derek>     <GNUe-request-parameter name="subtitle">April2002</GNUe-request-parameter>
<derek>     <GNUe-request-parameter name="begin">04/01/2002</GNUe-request-parameter>
<derek>   </GNUe-report-request>
<derek> what are the request and params showing in the output?
<jcater> nickr: because -o would make TOO much sense
<jcater> derek: you can ignore the GNUe-report-* stuff
<derek> is this a tep thin or no
<jcater> tep?
<derek> temp
<derek> as in xsl i cant really ignore it
<derek> if GNUe-report-ouput will be there always
<jcater> the GNUe-request are the options the report was run with
<derek> i need to know
<jcater> in case the raw xml was written to a file
<jcater> and later transformed
<derek> if the GNUe-report-request are ignorable thats easy enough
<jcater> you could know what the raw xml really is
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<jcater> it's ignorable
<jcater> but permanent
<jcater> unless it really causes you a problem
Action: jcater hopes not
<derek> no it shouldnt
<derek> the tag names might killme ;)
<derek> j/k btw
<jcater> well, let me retract that
<jcater> nothing is permanent at this stage :)
<jcater> but my intent is to keep them
Action: jcater makes no guarantees
Action: chillywilly hugs tcpdump
<chillywilly> I like tcpdump
<chillywilly> it's cool
<Mr_You> mac os x has a tcpdump gui app.. 
<jcater> is that for taking distributed dumps?
Action: Mr_You claps for Apple.
<chillywilly> hehe
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<chillywilly> it dumps tcp packet headers
<Mr_You> its a sniffer
<chillywilly> it
<chillywilly> s pretty cool
<chillywilly> let's you see wtf is going on
Action: chillywilly was monitoring crazymike's web server
<chillywilly> I was seeing how many leaches were sucking on his server
<chillywilly> heheh, there's someone form charter hospital
<chillywilly> (the rehab hospital)
<chillywilly> 15:58:58.082477 192.168.1.101.www > 66-188-136-187.mad.wi.charter.com.23991: . 233601:235061(1460) ack 238 win 6432 (DF)
<chillywilly> mist be some chick
<chillywilly> I wonder why crazymike went away
<chillywilly> I bet he went to bed
<chillywilly> that pussy
<chillywilly> he's got on RR user, on ameritech DSL user, and a guy/girl form charter hospital all downloading songs off his web server
<chillywilly> s/on/one
<chillywilly> oh and somneone from wester IL university
<chillywilly> er, western
<Mr_You> word of advice for all, don't use sniffers on corporate networks unless you've been authorized ;-)
<Mr_You> same with probing ports
<chillywilly> well, duh
<chillywilly> but this is on his cable modemlooks like another leech is here
<chillywilly> from kc
<Mr_You> some don't think about it and are surprised when so-and-so from other dept. finds out
<chillywilly> 16:07:46.347493 192.168.1.101.36108 > mkc-162-090.kc.rr.com.www: P 1:529(528) ack 1 win 5840 <nop,nop,timestamp 9467722 286884689> (DF)
<chillywilly> 16:07:35.836785 Boards-Rabin.infopop.net.www > 192.168.1.101.36104: P 3773942571:3773944019(1448) ack 2433298186 win 31856 <nop,nop,timestamp 139316147 9466590> (DF)
<chillywilly> another dude
<chillywilly> looks like everyone is grabbing the show that we went to and recorded
<chillywilly> gawd, ppl still running infected IIS servers
<jcater> chillywilly: you need a hobby
<jcater> s/a/another
<derek> <html>
<derek>   <head>
<derek>     <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<derek>     <title>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</title>
<derek>   </head>
<derek>   <body>
<derek>     <h1>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</h1>
<derek>   </body>
<nickr> I think chillywilly needs to take up like origami or weaving or something
<derek> </html>
<derek> got interrupted but basic transformatoin for title is done :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<nickr> foobulation
<jcater> derek: cool
<derek> since its there
<derek> can you, or do you mind me adding a section
<jcater> ?
<derek>       <sectionTitle></sectionTitle>
<derek> can we make a sectionTitle here
<jcater> dammit
<jcater> I had that fixed yesterday
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> you can manually type something there if you want
<derek> hmmm
<derek> also it looks odd like malformed xml
<derek> i see
<derek>     </section>
<derek> </GNUe-report-output>
<derek> but i dont see any <section>
Action: jcater has focused on the underlying report engine... not the validity of my sample file :)
<jcater> <reportTitle>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</reportTitle><section break="page">
<jcater>       <sectionTitle/>
<derek> grr was looking at old one
<derek> reran
<derek> and section loosk better
<jcater> ok
<derek> for now i want to be 'simple'
<derek> so im going to ignore 'page breaks' in html
<derek> and instead insert <hr>
<jcater> ok
<jcater> seems reasonable :)
<derek> how woudl a section title look?
<jcater> in html I'd picture it as an <h2>
<derek> no
<derek> i mean the markup :)
<jcater> oh
<derek> <sectionTitle>foo</sectionTitle>
<jcater> <sectionTitle>foo</sectionTitle>
<jcater> um, yeah
<jcater> that
Action: derek is just curious if we are avoiding <section title="something">
<derek> for a reason
<derek> i think its easier in xslt to do the way we are doing it :)
<jcater> the markup is actually
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<derek> just asking :)
<jcater> <sectionTitle><param name="subtitle"/></sectionTitle>
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<jcater> I don't think
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<jcater> <sectionTitle title="<param name="subtitle"/>"/>
<jcater> would work
<nickr> its easier to do xslt with attributes
<jcater> sure
<jcater> but it's not easy to spit that out
<nickr> oh.
<nickr> yea.
<jcater> actually, that'd be trivial
<jcater> if we stuck w/the &lt;tag&gt;
<derek> woo hoo have subtitles and sectdions
<jcater> formatting
<jcater> but that's hard on the eyes :)
<jcater> rofl
<derek> ok have another question
<derek>       <table width="100%">
<derek>         <tablehead>
<derek>           <colhead width="40">Name</colhead>
<derek>           <colhead align="center" width="10">Date</colhead>
<derek>           <colhead align="right" width="10">Foobulations</colhead>
<derek>         </tablehead>
<jcater> anyone here get the Wall Street Journal?
<derek> im thinking width, alignment etc should possibly not be in the transformation
<derek> er the source file
<derek> this is where im torn
<chillywilly> only yuppies read the wall street journal
<derek> if we leave it out we are better off
<derek> BUT people will whine if we dont
<jcater> the headline is "Microsoft: Software Giant Struggles with Issues of Growing Up"
<chillywilly> tough noogies
<derek> i think the right way to do it is allow custom .xsl files to apply ontop of standard
<derek> but that another debate
<jcater> derek: I have ONLY one reason for doing that
<chillywilly> jcater: interesting
<jcater> I don't like it
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> this is a demo in which I need PS and Text demos
<jcater> and at the moment, I can't figure out tables :)
<jcater> so if you have a "width" we can fudge it for the moment
<jcater> now, if you know how to draw tables w/o that information
<jcater> I'm game
<jcater> long run, that's what I'd like
<jcater> and remember, this is a proof of concept markup, not necessarily "official gnue"
<jcater> that make sense?
<jcater> do you agree/disagree?
<derek> yess
<derek> im thinking what i might be able to do
<derek> if you are doing POC
<derek> i can hard code that crud in the .xsl
<derek> i.e. table
<chillywilly> derek thinking....scary
<derek> i can just make <table width="100%">
<derek> w/o you defining it
<derek> if we need this more portable than a POC
<jcater> oh, I thought you were talking about the width="40"
<derek> then i can make it read the width= in the markup etc
<derek> i was talking about all of it
<nickr> derek: never make something 100%
<derek> i will make it respect the output
<nickr> derek: make it 80% with 10% margins on each side :)
<chillywilly> nickr: and why not you frekazoid?
<derek> the question wasnt really 'i cant/wont do this'
<jcater> derek: "respect the output" ?
<derek> but rather do we want to be doing htis :)
<derek> and you answered that
<jcater> ok
<jcater> just keep that in mind w/all this
<jcater> 1) don't spend TOO much time on it
<derek> er respect the resulting .xml file the .grd creates :)
<jcater> 2) don't get worked up over what I coded
<jcater> :)
<derek> im not worked up
<nickr> use CSS, it makes size and formatting much easier
<derek> just asking questions
<derek> um CSS isnt an XSLT thing
<nickr> just say 'my templathe produces these CSS classes' and let the presentation determine what it really looks like
<nickr> No it isn't
<derek> and for other formats than html it makes no sense
<nickr> yep
<nickr> I thought you were talking about HTML
<nickr> I'm only vaguely conscious because I'm listening to Rush and getting like a major joy from it.
<jcater> Limbagh?
<chillywilly> the band?
<nickr> no
<nickr> the band yo
<chillywilly> rock on!
<nickr> and a voice rings in his ears, like the music of the spheres!
Action: jcater was getting worried about nickr
<chillywilly> a bolder new reality closer tot he heart
<chillywilly> er, to the
<nickr> too man hands on my time, too many feelings, too many things on my mind, when I leave I don't know what I'm hopin to find, and when I leave I don't know what I'm leavin behind!
<derek> what is html for table head?
<derek> th
<derek> and is the data td
<derek> <th>
Action: jcater thinks
<derek>   <td>foo</td>
<derek> etc
<chillywilly> gah, nickr what song is that?
<nickr> chillywilly: analog kid
<derek> getting closer
<derek> <html>
<derek>   <head>
<derek>     <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<derek>     <title>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</title>
<derek>   </head>
<derek>   <body>
<derek>     <h1>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</h1>
<derek>     <hr>
<derek>     <h2>April 2002</h2>
<derek>     <table>
<derek>       <th>
<derek>         <td>Name</td>
<derek>         <td>Date</td>
<derek>         <td>Foobulations</td>
<derek>       </th>
<derek>     </table>
<derek>   </body>
<derek> </html>
<nickr> derek: don't use hr, use a <!DOCTYPE instead of a <meta
<jcater> yeah, I'm not sure of the <hr> either
<chillywilly> I agree with nickr
<chillywilly> actually both would be better
<chillywilly> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<chillywilly> <html>
<chillywilly> <head>
<chillywilly> .....
<chillywilly> then the meta tag
<nickr> You don't need a <meta
<nickr> the doctype tells a smart renderer that its html
<derek> smoking
<derek> want a sample jcater?
<jcater> surely
<nickr> cracq
<derek> is ash down?
<derek> nevermind
<chillywilly> apparently
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/monthly.html
<derek> is raw output
<derek> i.e. w/ table but not respecting your width etc
<jcater> the width wasn't necessarily for html
<derek> im thinking th is wrong but not sure
<jcater> are the table headers right?
<jcater> isn't it <tr><th>...</td>...</tr>
<jcater> ?
Action: jcater forgets
<nickr> derek: just make it link a CSS that makes it 100% dude.
<jcater> don't forget my subtotals :)
<derek> ah could be
Action: derek isnt to subtotals yet
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater is happy w/the progress :)
<jcater> my baby
<jcater> she's becoming a girl
<derek> its not 
<derek> <th><tr>
<derek> i.e. doesnt make it better
Action: derek goes to find html reference :)
<nickr> derek: th is akin to td
<derek> one thin that would help me jcater is if you could whip up a grd w/ more than one section :)
<nickr> derek: <tr><th>Header</th></tr><tr><td>Data</td></tr>
<chillywilly> akin eh?
<jcater> derek: as soon as I get this one working right :)
<jcater> that's my next step
<nickr> yes, akin
<derek> cool
<chillywilly> you're a super freak
<derek> hmm nickrthat still looks like crap
<nickr> derek: what is the output?
<chillywilly> html sucks rocks
<nickr> html is useful if you use it right :)
<derek> it just isnt pretty
<nickr> derek: I'l make it pretyt, gimme the ouput
Action: nickr is an html wizard
<derek> grrrr
<derek> damn it
<derek> i think galeon is caching the page
<jcater> ouch
<nickr> possibly
<nickr> I've had trouble looking at local files
<derek> yip that was the problem
<derek> reopened instead of refresh and it looks purdy
<derek> looks like th auto centers
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<nickr> yea
<nickr> by default most browsers render it that way
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/monthly.html
<derek> is it with th done right
<derek> jcater: let me knock out subtotaling
<derek> and then i will look at respecting the attributes
<nickr> that looks like crap. Needs padding and borders and such
<derek> hmm pisss
<derek> i dont like how you ahve done subtotals :) it will make me work
<jcater> um
<jcater> how would you like it?
<jcater> we can change
<derek> can you explain it maybe
<jcater> my thinking was
<derek>          <subtotalRow level="2">  
<derek>             <subtotal skip=""/>
[22:58] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<derek>             <subtotal>12</subtotal>
<derek>           </subtotalRow>
<derek> is what i see
<jcater> level = 1 would be like a grand total
<jcater> level = 2 would be like a subtotal
<jcater> level 3 would be a subsubtotal (but you don't have to go that far :)
<derek> hmmm im not sure per say what this file would care about that
<jcater> hang on
<jcater> it would affect formatting
<derek> part of this could be me being an xslt newbie
<derek> at first look it would be probably easier to deal with as
<jcater> Blah 1   $1200
<jcater> Blah 2     100
<jcater>          -----
<jcater>           1300
<jcater> Blah 3   $1200
<jcater> Blah 4     100
<jcater>          -----
<jcater>           1300
<jcater>          -----
<jcater>          $2600
<jcater>          =====
<derek> <row type="total" level="2">
<derek>   <col number="3">12</col>
<derek> </row>
<jcater> um
<jcater> that's fine w/me
<jcater> actually, I think I prefer that
<derek> hey dont agree that easy
Action: Mr_You jumps in without a clue.
<derek> makes me think im wrong
<Mr_You> like usual
Action: nickr makes a nice style for it.
<derek> i say this only because my current sheet does equiv a for iteration through rows
<Mr_You> right now I have invoices where each item has a "price" and "extended price"
<derek> so by making it subtotalRow opposed to row will mean more work
<jcater> derek: I'm serious... change it
<jcater> I like that way better
<Mr_You> first is the @ price, extended price is discounted/total cost for number purchased.
<jcater> derek: at that rate, should we do
<jcater> <row type="heading"> 
<jcater> instead of
<jcater> <tablehead>
<jcater> ?
<derek> :)
Action: derek is going to leave as is for a minute and researching some xslt stuff
<derek> like attribute processing
Action: Mr_You whispers something about RPG?
<derek> i dont want to be changing things too rapidly just yet
<Mr_You> any benefits of old school RPG for report generation?  
<derek> when i posed the question i didnt expect you to agree
<Mr_You> I actually had RPG class in H.S.
<jcater> RPG?
<derek> run 
<Mr_You> hehe
<derek> old reporting language RPG
<derek> Report Program Generator or something
<Mr_You> a language for creating reports.
<nickr> look at http://nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/gnue/monthly.html :)
<derek> oh wicked
<derek> you can combine documents
<jcater> purdy
<derek> like
<derek> <report>
<nickr> with namespaces
<derek>   <title>April Purchase Orders</title>
<nickr> you can
<chillywilly> I don't want to be a cog in the corporate machine anymore
<derek>   <po filename="po3234.xml"/>
<derek>   <po filename="po3235.xml"/>
<derek>   <po filename="po3236.xml"/>
<derek> </report>
<derek> yummy i think we can do some wicked stuff
<Mr_You> cw: take a vacation
<jcater> cw: marry rich
<jcater> err, marry wealth
<Mr_You> but then, I tend to think life shouldn't be about 2-3 vacations a year..
<derek> hmmm we can do formulas in xslt if we so desire
<chillywilly> nah, I think I will just have to do things my way
<jcater> derek: just pagenumbers and the like :)
<Mr_You> I like the idea of working while vacationing.. so you're vacationing 12 times a year
<derek> hmm it can do sorting and the likes too
<jcater> does it do dishes?
<chillywilly> does it make coffee?
<chillywilly> and donuts?
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<derek> jcater: well i have it respecting attributes :)
<derek> but its not pretty
<jcater> that's ok
<jcater> we have nickr
<derek> i.e. you specfication of 100% makes it ugly
Action: jcater thinks you can remove the width=100%
<jcater> as I don't know what crack I was smoking at the time
<jcater> the table column widths are actual max character widths
<jcater> which may or may not be relative in html output
<jcater> but was mainly for text/ps
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:00:03)
<jcater> derek: regrab cvs
<jcater> the format hasn't changed
<jcater> but I fixed a bug
<nickr> derek: did you even look at the version I made?
<derek> nickr: why doesnt this work
<derek> <html>
<derek> <head>
<derek> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<derek> <title>Monthly Accounting Foobulation Report</title>
<derek> <style type="css/text">
<derek> table { 
<derek> 	  width: 80%;
<derek> 	  margin-left: 10%;
<derek> 	  margin-right: 10%;
<derek> 	}
<derek> 	td {
<derek> 	  padding: 0.5em;
<derek> 	  border-style: solid;
<derek> 	  border-width: thin;
<derek> 	  border-color: black;
<derek> 	}
<derek> 	th {
<derek> 	  padding: 0.5em;
<derek> 	  border-style: solid;
<derek> 	  border-width: thin;
<derek> 	  border-color: black;
<derek> 	}
<derek> 	h1 {
<derek> 	  text-align: center;
<derek> 	}
<derek> 	h2 {
<derek> 	  margin-left: 5%;
<derek> 	  margin-right: 5%;
<derek> 	  text-align: left;
<derek> 	}
<derek> 	hr {
<derek> 	  margin-left: 5%;
<derek> 	  margin-right: 5%;
<derek> 	}
<derek>     </style>
<derek> </head>
<derek> as i cant use what you put
<derek> as the <!--
<derek> dicks with the xsl sheet
<derek> and i end up with
<derek> <style></style>
<derek> i suppose i could use CDATA
<derek> nickr: i looked at the version you made but struggling to implement it
<jcater> but I fixed a bug
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<derek> nickr: ?
<derek> hmmm if i remove that text="css/text" works fine
<jcater> how odd
<derek> prolly will choke the snot out of old browsers though
<jcater> methinks too
<nickr> derek: you should move the stylesheet to a separate file
<nickr> derek: I just stick it in there so you could see
<derek> for now it works
<nickr> anyway, it looks a hell of a lot better than the raw html :)
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/monthly.html
<derek> notice date and foobulations header are respecting the xml file alignment
<derek> xslt also does formatting
<derek> note the 12's on the bottom are the subtotals
<derek> but obviously the style sheet is wrong :)
<jcater> rofl
<derek> as i was doing for loop for row
<derek> then did for loop for subtotalrow
<derek> and why i suggested we do them all as row :)
<jcater> you can change them and commit if you want
<derek> that way i could just do an 'if'
<jcater> or I can change them and commit
<jcater> either way
<derek> jcater: you change
<derek> so i can blame you when someone with a clue tells us we are high
<nickr> derek: you should have your xslt formulate CSS styles for things with formatting
<jcater> derek: committed
<chillywilly> derek: heh, too bad this channel is logged ;)
<chillywilly> and plus I also have the logs to prove it
<derek> also if you want the data and not the columns aligned
<chillywilly> muwahahahaha
<derek> er not just the headers
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<derek> you might change the grd to
<derek>                 <out:col align="center"><field name="foodate"/></out:col>
<derek>                 <out:col align="right"><field name="foobs"/></out:col>
<derek> btw: im a foobs man
<derek> nickr: im working on the basics :)
<derek> i have included the stylesheet you suggested
<nickr> hm.
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/monthly.html
<derek> should be your style sheet implementation
<nickr> Indeed
<nickr> you can generate the tags without the align if the align isn't specified with a conditional thingy in xslt
<jcater> derek: committed
<chillywilly> http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/1017787868/index_html
<jcater> with the out:subtotals changed to out:col :)
<jcater> argh!
Action: jcater thinks konq is caching
<derek> jcater: another reason to hate html
Action: derek remembers this from writing jadeke stuff
<derek> caching was a proverbial bitch
<derek> there is a meta tag i believe
<chillywilly> I'm not having any issues
<jcater> are the 3 subttotals still at the bottom?
<chillywilly> the refresh attribute in meta?
<derek> that tells the broswer to ignore cache
<derek> but of course i.e. didnt respect it :)
<derek> yes
<nickr> I don't seem to have a problem with it
<derek> chillywilly: sashxb is old news :)
<chillywilly> sorry d00dz
<nickr> I think they fixored the caching behavior in the galeon that I have
<jcater> derek: that "yes" for me?
<chillywilly> I haven't read news in a while
<derek> yip
<jcater> ok
Action: chillywilly has 1.2.0
<derek> yes subtotals still on bottom
<derek> regrabbing cvs
<derek> and going to run it
<chillywilly> eeek, april 2nd
<derek> then look at some things
<chillywilly> sheesh
Action: jcater is getting summaries to work
<derek> rock
<derek> we might have stupid and useless demo at some point :)
<jcater> ?
Action: derek will work on getting contact manager report soon :)
<jcater> we have that now
<jcater> ah
<nickr> derek: 'stupid and useless demon' is redundant
<nickr> demon
<nickr> demo
<nickr> weird
<jcater> my foobulations report isn't useless
<chillywilly> daemon
Action: derek was supposed to get contact manager working today
<jcater> those are real foobulation numbers I ran from NCS
<chillywilly> bitch
<derek> nickr: you have never worked for a large corporation
<derek> they require many stupid yet useful tools :)
<chillywilly> fuck corporations
<derek> chillywilly: im scared of catching something
<chillywilly> fuck them up their stupid asses
Action: chillywilly works a for a real big shithead of a corporation
<chillywilly> s/a//
<derek> kick butt
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/monthly.html
<jcater> chillywilly: that's redundent too
<derek> basically i did nothign to my style sheet
<derek> other than rerun the new grd
<chillywilly> jcater: hehe
<derek> need to pretty up the format of the subtotals
<derek> but they are in right place now
<chillywilly> anyone know of the infamous Tyco (and not eh toy company)
<jcater> oops
<chillywilly> er, the
<jcater> guess I forgot the "right" on the last total
Action: derek hopes you dont use that 'math' when doing your own financials :)
<derek> i.e. all totals are 12
Action: jcater is working on summaries now :)
<jcater> those are hardcoded
Action: derek thought maybe i accidently hardcoded that
<derek> in my sheet and had to double check
<nickr> you should make a class for total lines that get inverted :)
<derek> nickr: if you want want to pretty this up some
<derek> the total lines
<derek> i might be able to make the style sheet fit the bill
<derek> er the xslt sheet
<nickr> Well
<nickr> you are getting logical information about the rows aren't you?
<jcater> sigh
<jcater>   def addSummaryToSection(self, section, field, function):
<jcater>     pass  # This should probably be replaced with real code :)
<nickr> like 'this is a total' 'this is an item' etc?
<derek> jcater:  you in the grd?
<jcater> somewhat... but you can change
<derek> if not i will make some changes 
<derek> ok
<nickr> if you're getting that information, you can put it in class names
<derek> nickr: currently no
<nickr> if its in class names you can mark up based on it
<jcater> what information?
<derek> but technically i will know by type=
Action: jcater thinks that's the only what you should know
<jcater> as I don't wanna put css in my grd
<derek> jcater: the file provides that information
<derek> im just not reading it :)
<derek> yet
<jcater> ah
<nickr> I'm not saying you have CSS in there
<derek> so if nick made a css
<derek> that said
--- Tue Apr  9 2002