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<psu> mornin' all
<ajmitch> hey psu
<ajmitch> what's up?
<reinhard> moring
<psu> me, for a start
<ajmitch> psu: always a good sign ;)
<ajmitch> hmm, lag not too bad while downloading...
<psu> who was it who said, "I always get up in the morning, read the obituaries in the paper
<psu> and if I'm not in it, I leave and go to work."
<ajmitch> lol
<Isomer> hmm
<ajmitch> hi Isomer
<ajmitch> what's up?
<Isomer> excuse the flood:
<Isomer> I get up each morning, gather my wits.
<Isomer> Pick up the paper, read the obits.
<Isomer> If I'm not there I know I'm not dead.
<Isomer> So I eat a good breakfast and go back to bed.
<Isomer> Oh, how do I know my youth is all spent?
<Isomer> My get-up-and-go has got-up-and-went.
<Isomer> But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin,
<Isomer> And think of the places my get-up has been.
<Isomer> 		-- Pete Seeger
<ajmitch> hehe
<Isomer> So, to answer psu's question, it was Pete :)
<ajmitch> got jetstart working here, btw
<ajmitch> using a nice usb modem
<Isomer> Excellent
<Isomer> ah
Action: Isomer using a 3com HomeConnect
<ajmitch> nice units, those
<ajmitch> that's the one that can do pppoa or pppoe?
<ajmitch> with the alcatel, i get the ip on ppp0, so i do all the NAT, etc with iptables
<Isomer> yah
<Isomer> ditto with the 3com
<Isomer> comes in over PPTP
<ajmitch> useful
<Isomer> so I also get the nice ppp0
<ajmitch> i use the userspace pppoa drivers for the alcatel
<ajmitch> works nicely
<Isomer> cool
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<ajmitch> hey jamest
<jamest> wow
<jamest> that was the quickest irc login I've ever seen
<jamest> brb
<ajmitch> hehe
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<jamest> wow!!!!!!!!!!
<ajmitch> quick?
<jamest> yesterday afternoon the campus doubled it's internet1 bandwidth to 40Mbps
<ajmitch> cool
<jamest> i had no idea it'd impact the use of this 
<ajmitch> dunno what the uni is running on here
<ajmitch> seems incredibly slow at times tho
<jamest> we're at 40Mbps for Internet1
<jamest> 145Mbps for Internet2
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<ajmitch> yo jbailey
<jbailey> Heya ajmitch.
<jbailey> (Doing timezone math...)
<jbailey> DO you guys do daylight savings?
<ajmitch> yep
<jbailey> Are you now +1300?
<ajmitch> we're heading into winter now
<ajmitch> we're +1300 october-march
<ajmitch> +1200 the rest of the year :)
<jbailey> Yeah, but your winter is like the hotest days in Vancouver. =)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> yeah, we get a bit of snow, but not too much
<Isomer> hmm
<jbailey> I hadn't realized (though it makes sense) that you guys would move the opposite direction for time change...
<Isomer> but it's cold enough!
<jbailey> Makes sense.
<ajmitch> yeah, and you're up north Isomer :)
Action: Isomer might even have to close my window tonight
<ajmitch> oh no
Action: ajmitch invites Isomer down to dunedin for winter
<Isomer> :P
<jbailey> I'd like to head to Australia and New Zealand one day.  But I think I'll go by boat.
<jbailey> I can't imagine the flights. =(
<ajmitch> hehe
<Isomer> do you know an Andrew Miller ajmitch?
<Isomer> 29hours in a plane
<ajmitch> might do, i dunno :)
<Isomer> remember to take a laptop :)
<jbailey> Isomer: 29 hours?  Ugh.
<ajmitch> whois andrew miller?
<Isomer> ajmitch: I can't remember where he is, but he's not in Hamilton, but he's in NZ
<Isomer> he's a ircd coder
<ajmitch> ok ;)
<jbailey> Isomer: I'd probably prefer to bring a library. =)  I'd be worried about someone stealing the laptop while I was asleep.
<ajmitch> why mention him?
<Isomer> ajmitch: you said that there were several andrews in dunlug IIRC
Action: Isomer pondered if he was part of it
<ajmitch> did i? hmm
<Isomer> I could be completely imagining it
<Isomer> but shrug
<ajmitch> there's been several andrews in here
<ajmitch> like andrew murie, andrew hill, etc
<Isomer> yeah
<Isomer> so whats an andrew miller? :)
<ajmitch> dunno ;)
<Isomer> :)
<jbailey> Isomer: Carbon based biped?
<Isomer> jbailey: one would assume :)
<ajmitch> you'd hope
<ajmitch> night all, gotta do homework :)
<jbailey> g'night ajmitch.
<Isomer> sleep well :)
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<jbailey> (Is it Thursday night there now?)
<Isomer> Thu Apr 11 00:59:42 NZST 2002
<Isomer> thursday morning
<jbailey> Ah,  okay.
<jbailey> I get confused when counting over the dateline.
<Isomer> heh
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<jamest> hello
[09:15] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> ra3vat: any luck w/ i18n?
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<ra3vat> jamest: you're quitting as quick as logging in :)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> you're working with art on i18n correct?
<ra3vat> jamest: playing with new unicode wxpython under w2k
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<ra3vat> deem0N: privet
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<ra3vat> ah
<derek> ra3vat: please dont scare the other users off ;)
<ra3vat> derek: if speaking russian scares russians, I'll be quiet :)
Nick change: derek -> dnWork
<drochaid> ok, this is well OT and I'm guessing a long shot :)
<drochaid> any know some really good stationers or light card manufacturers?
<nickr> 'stationers'? 'ligcht card'?
<jcater> not in your part of the world :(
<drochaid> jcater: a lot of yours ship over here as well ...
<jcater> what are you looking for?
<drochaid> basically I'm trying to find a dark blue card with a linen finish on one side and matt on the reverse .. around 120 to 160gsm
<drochaid> I've got exactly that, but at 250gsm ... and it's too thick for my needs :(
<jcater> too thick? are you planning running these through a laser printer or something? or is the look just not right with that thickness?
<drochaid> combination of the two
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<drochaid> I need it in A4 size, intended to be folded to A5 for a brochure cover
<drochaid> the 250gsm one goes through my laser ok, but the spine cracks when folded
<jcater> yeah, I'd imagine so
<jcater> I'll look thru my sources and see if they have anything similar
<drochaid> thanks
<drochaid> I'm going to talk to some local printers in a couple of days if I don't have any luck
<drochaid> unfortunately the one I used to use went into liquidation a year or so ago :(
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<dneighbo> jcater jamest how hard is it to make linux accept ssh on port 23?
<drochaid> that should be really easy dneighbo
<drochaid> sorry, i'm having an identity crisis ... don't know if I'm jcater or jamest yet tho ...
<dneighbo> drochaid if you know the answer thats great
<drochaid> gimmie a mo ..
<dneighbo> i just asked them specifically as i know they have set it up before :)
<drochaid> if I'm right it's a single file entry in /etc
<drochaid> just can't remeber which file off hand
<dneighbo> i thought you had to have a recent kernel
<dneighbo> or compile in something special
<dneighbo> im on 2.2.19pre17 on the box i want to ssh into
<jamest> if you don't need it listening on port 22 anymore
<jamest> then just change the port number in your /etc/ssh/sshd_config file
<jamest> and restart it
<dneighbo> and if i want it on both ports?
<dneighbo> btw: probably having just on the one port probably will be ok for me (just curious)
<drochaid> jamest: do you not need to alter the /etc/services file to point ssh to port 23 ?
<dneighbo> if i change /etc/ssh/sshd_config via ssh
<dneighbo> how can i restart it?
<drochaid> as in ...
<dneighbo> i.e. if i do i a restart will it just logme off
<drochaid> ssh 23/udp
<drochaid> ssh 23/tcp
<drochaid> dneighbo: you just need to restart network services [inetd?]
<jamest> dneighbo: /etc/init.d/ssh restart
<jamest> you have to port forward to run on both IIRC
<jamest> lunch!
<jamest> drochaid: you shouldn't have to touch that file
<drochaid> port forward? :o
<dneighbo> jamest: i know how to restart ssh
<drochaid> I've always just used /etc/services
<dneighbo> my question is can i restart it
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<dneighbo> if im using it :)
<drochaid> <jamest> dneighbo: /etc/init.d/ssh restart
<drochaid> ah poo
<drochaid> sorry, misread you
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<dneighbo> well the answer is yes :)
<dneighbo> a. it restarted the service and never kicked me off
<dneighbo> b. i was able to log back in on port 23
<dneighbo> unix just kicks ass
<drochaid> cool
<drochaid> pah!! *nix sucks
Action: drochaid storms back to windows
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<Arturas> hi :)
<ra3vat> hello
<Arturas> i have a question about GNUe directory structure
<Arturas> maybe it would be better to assign for i18n one directory
<Arturas> put there translations (maybe in subdirectories)
<Arturas> some kind of readme
<Arturas> (what i18n is, in what ways it's going to be realised and etc.)
<Arturas> and that everyone could put his ideas/corrections there
<Arturas> maybe directory like /gnue/common/i18n would go
<Arturas> or do you think all this stuff should be put somewhere else?
<Arturas> (some module that will be needed for i18n will probably go in /gnue/common/src)
<jcater> what kind of files?
<Arturas> for now there would be only readme :)
<Arturas> but later there would be translations
Action: jcater would think maybe gnue/common/etc/lang/
<jcater> which would get installed as /usr/local/gnue/etc/lang/
<Arturas> ok, and what about country-specific data
<Arturas> like time
<Arturas> $
<jcater> or should that be etc/locale ?
<Arturas> what do you mean?
<jcater> I was just suggesting a directory :)
<jcater> and maybe have subdirectories under that for each supported locale
<Arturas> => /gnue/common/etc/locale ?
<jcater> that's my opinion
<jcater> but I may not be qualified to make that decision :)
<Arturas> that's the decision we all have to make :)
<Arturas> and where do i put readme then?
<jcater> what's in the README ?
<Arturas> (it should be named not readme, but i18n-readme)
<dsmith> Anyone here know how to do cvs through a web proxy?
<Arturas> dsmith: no
<Arturas> jcater: what is i18n
<jcater> is it a generic "how to do i18n?"  
<Arturas> how it will be put into practice
<Arturas> hm, no, it's "how we do i18n in GNUe"
<Arturas> what ideas
<jcater> ok
<Arturas> tools
<jcater> I think that goes in gnue/common/docs
<Arturas> under what file name?
<Arturas> i18n?
<dneighbo> if stuff is only docs
<dneighbo> it belongs in the doc directory
<dneighbo> imho
<jcater> i18n.txt
<Arturas> ok :)
<Arturas> thank you :)
<Arturas> and some good news from i18n world
<jcater> dneighbo: what do you think about language mappings being in gnue/common/etc/locale/*
<jcater> or etc/lang/* (either one)
Action: jcater thinks those would make sense under etc
<jcater> but not docs of course :)
<Arturas> i & Dmitry (ok, it was Dmitry on the whole :) managed to get i18n (=> Russian) symbols in wxForm
<dneighbo> um
<Arturas> under win
<dneighbo> i think documentation of what we are doing for all of i18n probably belongs in docbook/
<dneighbo> with proposals and other docs
<Arturas> source still looks awfully, but it works
<dneighbo> docs specifically for i18n implementation for a specific tool belongs under the doc/ dir of that tool
<dneighbo> as to teh 'mappings'
<dneighbo> hmmmm
<dneighbo> i suppose we will need that by tool
<dneighbo> but i dont have  good answer
<dneighbo> should they all go in common
<dneighbo>  etc/tool/local
<jcater> well, our current etc/ setup is whack
<dneighbo> or should they go in a directory for each tool?
<jcater> as every tool's config files/images are in common/etc
<dneighbo> i dont know enough about what is teh 'right' way
<jcater> so to continue w/our current model, they should all go into common/etc
<dneighbo> i agree
<jcater> not saying that's right
<dneighbo> i agree :)
<dneighbo> that was my question i guess (or answer)
<dneighbo> is that currently to follow suit it should go in common/etc
<jcater> in that case, let's follow suite
<dneighbo> but whether thats best i dont know :)
<jcater> and worry about cleaning up when we clean it ALL up :)
<dneighbo> works for me
<dneighbo> let Arturas check it in so we can blame him later when people complain ;)
<jcater> sounds good to me
<Arturas> hey!
<Arturas> that's NOT fair!!! :)
<jcater> Arturas: don't worry.. we do that to derek ALL the time :)
<jcater> <derek> Um, can I do this?
<jcater> <us> Sure
<jcater> ... two days later ...
<jcater> <us> Derek: wtf were you thinking!!!! that's all wrong
<jamest> !@#!@# derek!  why'd he do that?
<jamest> btw it's normally /msg derek sure!
<jamest> so we don't leave a log of it
<jcater> <us> Derek: we were only joking!!! we didn't ACTUALLY expect you to code!!!
Action: jcater ducks
<jamest> lol
Action: Arturas thinks whether he is in the right world with the right guys :0
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> its an american custom you see
<dneighbo>  /msg jcater think we can get him to fall for its 'cool' in america to get the blame
<jcater> well, see, we use a "Goat" theme here in GNUe
<jcater> everything is some-how goat-related
<jcater> we currently are lacking the "Scape" goat
<jcater> it's a special symbol for us
<ajmitch> chillywilly?
<Arturas> hm, one more question
<Arturas> do we transalate error, debug messages?
<jcater> I wouldn't worry about debug messages at this point
<jcater> but I suppose error messages would be like any other string
<jcater> we usually do them in the style "Unable to open file %s" 
<jcater> so I guess the %s would stay wherever it needed to be
<jcater> and the rest translated
Action: jcater is guessing
<jamest> i think the msg_blah stuff in gnue.conf needs to come out of there 
<Arturas> yes, it will have to be taken into separate file (there is no need to translate gnue.conf :)
<jamest> Arturas: so what are you commiting?
<nickr> does python support gettext?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> _("my string")
<Arturas> jamest: i18n.txt
<Arturas> jamest: at least i hope so :\
<jcater> unfortunately, we have to be careful in implementing that
<nickr> you should use gettext then :)
<jcater> as that adds a lot of overhead
<jcater> nickr: I think we are
<jcater> that's what Arturas was doing iirc
<Arturas> what is overhead?
<jcater> processing time
<dneighbo> overhead = is where you dont want a bird that has bowel problems
<nickr> yes
<nickr> true
<jamest> um
<ajmitch> yeah
<Arturas> mh, then i don't get the point??
<jamest> if we're really worried about that
<jamest> is there anyway we can embed this in GBaseApp.py
<Arturas> what adds a lot of processing time?
<jamest> so that it goes thru a dict or list of _() everything in it
<jcater> print _("my text")
<jcater> vs print "my text"
<jcater> causes a python method call
<jcater> which of all of python
<jcater> has the most overhead
<jamest> then the apps only reference the var that holds the output of the original _() call
<jcater> so we need to be careful "when" and "how" we do that
<nickr> probably maps to a C call no?
<jcater> nickr: yes, but the stack operations in python are heavy
<nickr> yea
<nickr> true
<nickr> just use it for messages that actually need to be translated.
<dneighbo> nickr that was the debate :)
<dneighbo> what needs translatin
Action: ajmitch smacks wxPython.lib.printout around
<dneighbo> my original comment was if its a message that is useful to teh END USER
<dneighbo> it shoudl be translated
<dneighbo> if its more a 'developer' message
<dneighbo> it should be in english only
<nickr> anything that is shown to an end user
<dneighbo> as we already are assuming all 'developers' will speak english at least enough to code in english :)
<jcater> yes, this is the whole debate :)
<dneighbo> the problem i think lies in that our lower level debug statements
<jcater> incidentally, for anyone not completely following
<dneighbo> some of the stuff is actuall 'user messages'
<dneighbo> but not all of it
<jcater> I wasn't saying "don't use _() [gettext]"
<jcater> but we need to be careful "how" we use it :)
<jcater> and like jamest said, we should look at somehow caching the results of _() for any messages that are used more than once
<nickr> yea
<nickr> or define abstract 'messages' that you reference by handle, that you load from gettex when the app starts
<Arturas> somewhere in gettext docs i read that it's possible to active translation of all strings in project with one command
<Arturas> i think we could wait a bit for that command
<Arturas> and as i imagine
<Arturas> all strings later will be 'changed' from some cache
<Arturas> (on the run)
<Arturas> about what to translate
<Arturas> question was: do we translate debug messages and error messages
<Arturas> because these are mainly designed for developer
<Arturas> end user should not see any of them
<Arturas> because all other strings (that end user can see) will be translated
<Arturas> bye :)
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<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:~$ ~/bin/gfcvs0307 title_management.gfd 
<dneighbo> is a beautiful thing
<nickr> uhh.
<dneighbo> its a form i use here almost daily that saves me so much time
<dneighbo> and cost my deparment, well, nothing
<ajmitch> cool
<ajmitch> does it do something useful?
<dneighbo> it manages valid human resources titles by department
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<dneighbo> so i can import them into the budget staffing summaries
<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> hi
<nickr> p s u
<psu> n i c k are
<psu> ooh
<psu> another xchat substitution
<ajmitch> hehe
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> I find that feature more annoynig than useful.
<dneighbo> nickr i think those of that are typing upwards of 100wpm for single sentence irc talking
<dneighbo> probalby see little to no value in autocompleting :)
<dneighbo> other than nicks
<dneighbo> but that is 'tab' complete
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/title_management.jpg
<dneighbo> is sample of that simple form that saves me time :)
<ra3vat> bye all
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<drochaid> switch it off then?
<nickr> yea tab completing is useful
<nickr> changing u into you is irritating.
<drochaid> changing u into "the goat herder was sleeping with the sheep" is even more irritating
<nickr> dneighbo: that'd be better looking without the bigass tooltip in the way
<dneighbo> nickr rofl, guess thats valid gripe :)
<nickr> anyway my screenshot is nicer
<dneighbo> surely it is
<nickr> nick.industrialmeats.com/data/pictures/screenshots/balam/balam-screenshot-2002-Apr-10-1540.jpg
<nickr> fjear my huge terminal windows.
<drochaid> bit small init?
<nickr> er?
<ajmitch> madainn mhath drochaid
<drochaid> feasgar math ajmitch
<drochaid> ciamar a tha thu?
<ajmitch> gle mhath, tapadh leit
<ajmitch> hmm, sp?
Action: ajmitch must run off to work anyway
<drochaid> spot on
<drochaid> cya then
<jcater> dneighbo: my subtotals are working in reports now :)
Action: jcater is giddy
<dneighbo> wicked
<dneighbo> nickr if you put on some weight you might look a little like silent bob
<drochaid> are you saying nickr has bad hair dneighbo? ;)
<nickr> I'm way thin for silent bob
<nickr> and way tall
<jamest> anyone here see bob and silent jay strike back?
<nickr> jamest: god, chillywilly is obsessed with that movie
<drochaid> nopesy
<dneighbo> nickr i only see head shots, and if you were heavier :)
<dneighbo> jamest yes but dont tell chilly :)
<jamest> if so did you know that silent bob's wife was one of the 4 female theves
<dneighbo> silent bob iirc is also the writer/director
<jamest> yip
<jamest> she's the one with the pony tales
<jamest> and was quite a bit older than the others
<jamest> had less lines (upon reflection)
<jamest> and she's a mom
<jamest> he said he wasn't sure about putting her in the movie but was too big a wuss to tell her no
<jamest> :)
<jamest> smart man
<nickr> hah
<dneighbo> i think his son played the baby bob in front of the store too
<jamest> i didn't know that
<dneighbo> just looked it up and i was incorrect
<dneighbo> it was his daughter that played baby bob in front of the store :)
Action: drochaid opens a big bag of malteasers
<drochaid> anyone want some?
<dneighbo> *
<dneighbo> * Baby Silent Bob is played by Harley Quinn Smith, daughter of director Kevin Smith.
<nickr> neat.
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<jamest> :)
<dneighbo> nickr : actually when i said if you were a little bigger you would look like kevin smith 
<dneighbo> i didnt mean silent bob i mean
<dneighbo> t
<dneighbo> http://www.bodybuildinglive.com/competitions/2001_ontario_provincials/kevin_smith.jpg
<nickr> uh, thats odd.
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<jamest> l8r
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<reinhard> night all
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<Yurik> chillywilly: hi
<chillywilly> hi
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<nickr> cheeeleee
<dneighbo> wassup coldwanker
<chillywilly> sup nicka
<chillywilly> heheh, cold wanker
<chillywilly> you're silly
<dneighbo> cold = chilly
<dneighbo> wanker = willy
<chillywilly> DUH!
<chillywilly> I just thought it was funny
<chillywilly> you really think I am that slow?
<chillywilly> geeeze
<dneighbo> you missed our theory and debate on jay and silent bob strike back
<chillywilly> rats
<dneighbo> no we werent talking about mallrats
<dneighbo> it was jay and silent bob strikes back
<chillywilly> both of which are rather humorous
<chillywilly> anyway...
Action: chillywilly is away: brb
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:01:03)
<jcater> dneighbo: you are onee sick, twisted motha
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> on that note, i heard new rush this morning
<dneighbo> at first i was like wow its hard
<dneighbo> and was like yummy
<dneighbo> then i heard geddy lee vocals and was so sad that the song was ruined
<jcater> dneighbo: I'm looking at this XSLT stuff
<jcater> who in their right mind likes this stuff
<jcater> it's hell
<jcater> unless you're doing some xml to someother xml transform
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> you are supposed to let me play with it
<dneighbo> you are supposed to just make the xml :)
<dneighbo> otherwise i will be back to having nothing to do
<nickr> bah
<nickr> geddy lee rules
<jcater> dneighbo: you planning on doing more w/the test.xsl soon?
<jcater> like column padding, justification, page numbering?
<dneighbo> yip
<jcater> cool
<dneighbo> was going to write  some 'functions'
<jcater> I'll leave you alone then
<dneighbo> so col width="" is respected
<dneighbo> and would justify off that
<jcater> rock
<jcater> what's your timeline on that?
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<dneighbo> wont be tonight
<dneighbo> quite possibly thursday
<jcater> cool
<jcater> can I send you a sample of what I'd like to see?
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> what do you want for 'pages' in the .txt version
<dneighbo> will a 'form feed' char work?
<jcater> page breaks will work
<jcater> err, form feeds
Action: dneighbo forgets i have printer on unix now i can test with :)
<nickr> ^L
<dneighbo> can you post what you want to the web?
<dneighbo> or is it too confidential?
<dneighbo> as i would be interested in seeing now :)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> it'd be a sample of Mandy, Sandy, and Candy's Foobulations
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<dneighbo> post it :)
<dneighbo> i was going to ask what foobulations might be
<dneighbo> but when i saw mandy,sandy, candy i figured im better off NOT knowing :)
<nickr> sounds like some sort of porn statistics
<jcater> well, if you can get the text.xsl up to speed
<jcater> then that'll free me up to make the datasources respect those passed parameters
<jcater> this is gonna be one helluva 0.0.1 release
<dneighbo> sigh
<dneighbo> we really need all the items released
<jcater> ?
<dneighbo> forms, designer, reports etc
<dneighbo> its been a while on all of them
<jcater> we are releasing all at the same time
<dneighbo> i know
<jcater> hopefully this weekend or next week
<dneighbo> just saying we really need to do it :)
<dneighbo> have you heard from FSF at all?
<jcater> me?
<jcater> regarding what?
<dneighbo> i sent lots of mail and asked thigns be setup and i havent heard doink since
<jcater> not to my knowledge
<dneighbo> ok
<jcater> unless spamassassin is catching them
<dneighbo> just making sure my email wasnt going to ether or something
<jcater> then I don't think I've gotten anything
<dneighbo> i need spamassassin
<dneighbo> sigh but then i have to setup a mali server i guess
<dneighbo> or fetchmail or the likes
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> two downsides to GNUe
<dneighbo> a. every time you need info you are your own best reference (according to google)
<dneighbo> b. spam increases exponentially by month
<jcater> no kidding
<jcater> I searched for 
<jcater> xslt postscript
<jcater> yesterday
<jcater> and guess what was at the top spot?
<jcater> gnue reports
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> I think I am going to kick the PHB in th nuts tomorrow at the meeting
<jcater> which blew me away
<chillywilly> yea, that's it
<chillywilly> right in the ballsack
<chillywilly> fucking cock knockers
<jcater> argh!
Action: chillywilly is didsgruntled
<chillywilly> er, disgruntled
<jcater> is there a utility to uncompress .SIT files under debian????
<nickr> jcater: yep
<dneighbo> sit?
<jcater> Mac compression
<nickr> macutils I think has it
<dneighbo> jcater you gonna post a mandy,candy,sandy sample txt :)
<jcater> in a few
<dneighbo> nickr i went and started hacking a gkrellm them to suit my red fetish
<dneighbo> its kind of cool how the themeing stuff works
<nickr> I never touched gkrellm myself
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/gkrellm.jpg
<dneighbo> dont know why image quality is so poor
<dneighbo> just wanted to let you know you encouraged me to 'expirement' with themes ;)
<dneighbo> to help my red addiction along, for that i am greatful
<nickr> ah no problem :)
<nickr> you seem to be a fan of gatoraid or koolaid
<dneighbo> ?
<nickr> by the colors you choose
<nickr> koolaid colors
<dneighbo> bright colors :)
<dneighbo> its just red
<dneighbo> i like what i have at the house now
<nickr> bugjuice color
<dneighbo> pretty much white with red
<dneighbo> hint of black here and there
<dneighbo> its clean yet different
<nickr> I'm a huge fan of low contrast purples and reds
<dneighbo> i like dark themes a lot too, they just arent as functional for me
<nickr> and blues
<nickr> because I use yellow text, its very visible on dark blue-grey
<dneighbo> i just have a red fetish alright
<dneighbo> does that make you happy
<dneighbo> now that you ahve made me admit it
<nickr> yes
<dneighbo> i am completely powerless over the color red
Action: nickr updates his file
<nickr> indeed
Action: dneighbo wonders if this explains the pizza fetish (Re: red tomato sauce)
<nickr> oh interesting
<nickr> No, I think food fetishes are based on smell and taste
<nickr> theres a certain shade of blue that makes me feel really nice
<nickr> my current background's blue is just a bit too saturated, not quite red enough
<nickr> I also like the color of the ocean in the tropics, the really deep, transparent blue
<nickr> data/backgrounds/underwater-tree.jpg 
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<jcater> dneighbo: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/foobulations.txt
<jcater> that's what I'd like to see
<jcater> based on the markup
<jcater> note that I changed Date's width to 22 and Name's width to 30
<jcater> to make it more balanced :)
<jcater> btw, is there any way in XSLT to store arrays?
<dneighbo> um not really
<dneighbo> its morelike a functional language
<dneighbo> than a procedurual one
<jcater> yeah, I gathered that
<jcater> I was wondering if it'd be possible
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<jcater> to remember the "width" settings for the <col>
<dneighbo> well you can fake for loops :)
<jcater> err, the heading <col>
<dneighbo> well you have those in tags
<dneighbo> so why need array?
<jcater> ?
<dneighbo> <col width="30">
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> but I only had those in the <heading> section
<dneighbo> ah
<jcater> it seems SO wasteful to have to repeat those for each row
<jcater> but
<dneighbo> thats fine
<jcater> if that's all we can do, then that's all we can do :)
<dneighbo> you can have it persist
<nickr> its really easy
<jcater> persist?
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<chillywilly> sup davey boy
<dyfet> another week, another release :)
<chillywilly> you code machine you
<dyfet> It's the big 0.8 :)
<chillywilly> so have the threading semntics changed a lot in cc++v2?
<dyfet> just a wee bit
<chillywilly> I just don;t get why my program stopped working
<dyfet> none of mine stopped ;)
<chillywilly> you use debian unstable at all?
<dyfet> from time to time when I throw a spare box up for some testing, yes'
<chillywilly>  *sigh*, I suck
<chillywilly> it jst does nothing
<dyfet> does the regression test work?
<chillywilly> how do you invoke that?
<chillywilly> make test?
<dyfet> cd tests
<dyfet> make
<dyfet> sh tests.sh
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> lemme try
Action: chillywilly waits
<nickr> zoot
<dyfet> Is Derek about?
<chillywilly> hasn't said anything in a bit
<dyfet> Ah, probably out for dinner
<chillywilly> almost 2 hours it seems
<dyfet> maybe he's a slow eater :)
<chillywilly> it compiles
<nickr> man, moxftp is way overengineered
<chillywilly> whihc one should I run?
<dyfet> there is a dotests.sh which is more interactive
<chillywilly> thread1 us running
<chillywilly> oh sorry
<chillywilly> you said that
<dyfet> in any case, it should complete them all :)
<dyfet> if not, then there is a problem...
<chillywilly> they all run fine
<chillywilly> I suck
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> now I have to figure out why my program licks balls yo
Action: chillywilly hasn't really touched it in ages
<nickr> well don't dtouch it in here
<dyfet> Dan often touches his code in public...
<chillywilly> grrrr
<dyfet> lol i couldnt resist that one
Action: chillywilly open mouth inserts foot
Action: chillywilly gathers up the trout and hand out numbers
<nickr> chillywilly: vell when you say lick balls and touch it in consecuritve statements, you know, we get to wonder
<chillywilly> now slapping number 12323
<chillywilly> hey nickr that's you
Action: chillywilly thwaps nickr profously
<nickr> Heh
<chillywilly> ok, well speaking of getting some grub
<chillywilly> I think I will do just that
<nickr> its humorous that you used that number
<chillywilly> which sucks
<chillywilly> because dyfet will surely be gone by thre time I get back
<dyfet> perhaps.
<chillywilly> nickr: why?
<dneighbo> hi dyfet im here
<dneighbo> wassup
<dneighbo> one time i thought nickr wasnt here
<dyfet> Hi, just wanted to see if we needed to cover anything in regards to the next release
<dneighbo> but i was mistaken :)
<dneighbo> um i think i got an email w/ yoru releasestuff
<dneighbo> if you could post a story to main site i will publish it
<dyfet> Yes, I am getting ready to release 0.8 this Friday
<dneighbo> i dont know what we had worked out re: downloads and such
<chillywilly> 0.8 of what?
<nickr> dneighbo: when would I ever NOT be here?!
<dneighbo> i think we have a mirror of sorts setup
<dyfet> Bayonne :)
<chillywilly> aaaaaah
<chillywilly> your baby
<dneighbo> nickr : im not sure, as stated i wsa misaken :)
<dyfet> Actually, we may have 1.0 out by June
<dneighbo> if you see rich tell him im trying REALLY hard to get w/ georg so we can meet on GBN
<dneighbo> i think he may have a sponsor that might help send him over to visit :)
<dyfet> Okay, that's right, that was the other thing we were to talk about, related to my travel
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<dneighbo> also, what was your experience with being at Intel booth in NY that one year?
<dyfet> It sucked :)
<dyfet> No, it wasnt that bad...
<dneighbo> amd has offered to let us give GNUe demos on their presentation pad
<dneighbo> every hour or so
<dneighbo> and was wondering if you had horror stories or not :)
<dyfet> The problem was we were the only free software at the booth...and nobody thought to look for us there
<dneighbo> we would maintian our own booth still
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<dyfet> I actually had a place for James to stay in NYC for LW, but I guess he couldnt make it...
<dneighbo> that was jason and he wsa not able to make it :(
<dneighbo> school scheduling conflict
<dyfet> Actually, the other problem with the Intel booth was it was huge and we were so easily lost in it :).  AMD might be much better in that respect
<dneighbo> i must run
<dyfet> Okay, we will talk in email
<dneighbo> rock
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<return_this> hello ....
<return_this> I found GNUe yesterday and it peaked my interest...
<return_this> so I am kind of looking for a starting point I guess... as a developer
<return_this> so everything is done in python?
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<return_this> ok... well the reason I ask is I am thinking about mozilla and jabber (my main points of experience)
<return_this> does it make sense to integrate GNUe into these platforms? or is it too divergant?
<nickr> Hi
<return_this> hi
<nickr> Currently most of it is in python.
<return_this> hmm... ok. I know C++ and a tiny bit of perl...
<nickr> Python is dead easy
<nickr> you already know python, basically, if you know C++
<return_this> heh... well.. tyring to get 2.2.1 installed.. the bin doesn't have a --version
<return_this> does GNU autotools support python?
<nickr> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
<return_this> can I just hack up a bunch of python files.. list it in x_SOURCES and have it automagically work?
<nickr> x_SOURCES?
<return_this> program_name_SOURCES <-- in the Makefile.am
<nickr> python has a library management system similar to perl's
<nickr> you do'nt need to compile it or anything
<nickr> GNUe uses python's disttools which is like automake sort of
<return_this> hmm... ok
<nickr> you give it a really simple definition file and it can "build"/install/etc
<nickr> although for most things
<nickr> like simple scripts
<nickr> its just write and run
<return_this> bother... maybe perl has tainted my outlook... but scripts and I do not get along at all
<nickr> hmm
<nickr> how do you mean?
<return_this> and to have something that will grow as large as GNUe will... to have it sit on scripts seems... ummm unstable
<nickr> Ahh
<nickr> I see where perl would give you a bad impression of interpreted lanuages
<return_this> just trying to figure out if I want to move over to the GNUe platform
<nickr> Python is by nature object oriented
<nickr> its not like perl umm package wise
<nickr> hmm
<jcater> return_this: what are you looking for in GNUe ?
<jcater> what kinds of needs are you trying to solve?
<return_this> several things: a POS, Accounting for bother Retail and Service oriented biz
<return_this> I am looking for a base to build off of for these types of apps... GNUe seems almost perfect
<nickr> oh it is
<return_this> has anyone used mozilla with GNUe yet?
<nickr> that concept confuses me
<nickr> 'used mozilla with gnue'
<nickr> hmm
<return_this> ok I might be missing something then...
<return_this> isn't GNUe a collection of objects that work together? both on client  and backend?
<jcater> how are you envisioning either mozilla or jabber working with business software?
<nickr> I could see jabber for a distributed sort of business object network
<return_this> mozilla for the UI and jabber for getting it out remotely... 
<jcater> return_this: we are a collection of tools that work together
<nickr> you could use mozilla with a web-based forms client
<nickr> but I don' see why it'dhave to be specificly mozilla
<return_this> mozilla for the XUL and XPCOM... 
<nickr> ah now thats just silly.
<return_this> heh... ok
<nickr> although theres nothing stopping you from writing a XUL forms client
<jcater> hang on a second...
<jcater> http://www.gnu.org/projects/gnue/faq.html#GNUe-FAQ-2.20
Action: return_this reading
<return_this> :)
<nickr> hah
<nickr> how about that
<jcater> we even have a "Why Python? Why not Java, ..."
<jcater> :)
<return_this> well... I KNOW that I don't like Java
<return_this> but since I haven't ever touched python... suppose I should give it a try
<nickr> python goes like this "you use whitespace for what!?" then "okay, its not so bad" then "Wow, this is easy" then "I love python!"
<nickr> Python: More an addiction than a language
<jcater> with fewer side effects than heroin
<nickr> Well
<nickr> Yea
<nickr> You get fat from all the donuts.
<return_this> ok...well so far python has not been good to me
<nickr> Oh dear.
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:55:15)
<return_this> simple installation isn't working... 
<return_this> have to dig up the src tarball 
Action: return_this wonders why he can never use binaries
<jcater> return_this: what operating system?
<return_this> rh7.2
<nickr> RetHack
<chillywilly> sup niggies
<jcater> look, it's the cold wanker!
<chillywilly> DeadCat
<chillywilly> look, it's the southern fried donut
<nickr> country fried
<chillywilly> anyways....
<chillywilly> yea, that too
<return_this> nickr: I just hit that "You use whitespace for what?!?!?!" phase
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<nickr> return_this: yea, thats the most painful phase of all
<nickr> a lot of people get stuck there
<return_this> also the lack of typesafety is troublesome too
<chillywilly> that's what exceptions are for ;)
<jcater> it won't take long to get over those two concerns :)
<return_this> whats an "indent" a tab, a space?
<nickr> doesn't matter as long as its consistent within the block iirc
<return_this> are braces optional?
<nickr> you don't use braces at all
<return_this> would like optional braces
<return_this> <sigh> ok going off to finish the crash course thing
<nickr> yea I thought I wanted braces too
<chillywilly> braces schmaces
<nickr> you don't notice at all, its nice.
<nickr> No braces, no ;
<chillywilly> python seems very natural to me even coming from c/c++ background
<chillywilly> I don't miss the braces
Action: ajmitch twitches
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> wassa matta wit you eh?
<nickr> ajmitch is having a seizure!
<chillywilly> oh no!
Action: ajmitch swings trout at chillywilly
<chillywilly> quick! get the trout!
Action: chillywilly ducks
<chillywilly> *quack*
Action: ajmitch connects
<chillywilly> ouch!
<chillywilly> you bastard
Action: chillywilly dances on ajmitch's head
<chillywilly> *burp*
<nickr> gross
<chillywilly> dems was some good eatens
Action: chillywilly sees if crazymike is online
<chillywilly> of course he is
<chillywilly> where else would he be but behind his computer
Action: ajmitch is online
<chillywilly> really?!?!
<chillywilly> WOOOOW!
<ajmitch> yeah, on dsl
Action: nickr isn't online
<chillywilly> I repeat, you bastard
<ajmitch> which is why i could just use the phone & not get disconnected
<chillywilly> w00t
[21:15] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> is it fast man?
<ajmitch> nope, this is NZ
<ajmitch> in norway they do IP over pigeons, here we have IP over sheep
<nickr> NZ would be the best country on earth if it had a really fat free pipe 
<ajmitch> and it's not easy to get a stupid sheep to go in the right direction
<ajmitch> nickr: yeah
<ajmitch> nickr: there is a reasonably good fat pipe available, it's just controlled by a monopoly ;)
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> IP over sheep
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> fucking bastards
<nickr> I was considering moving there but I erquire unconscionable amounts of bandwidth to sustain me
<chillywilly> yea, so why do you have dialup right now?
<chillywilly> phreak
<nickr> cause it sucks to be me
<chillywilly> not as much as it sucks to be me
<nickr> well I can agree with that
<nickr> I adopted a package today, cause I'm cool and tuff.
<nickr> stuff.
<chillywilly> your so tough
<chillywilly> that's why you are hard to bite
<chillywilly> s/your/you're/
<nickr> yep
<nickr> I'm what you call 'hard bitten'
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: chillywilly slaps dtm with a 30lb schanook salmon
<chillywilly> are you there mr. Bethe?
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<chillywilly> hey SachaS_
<sachas__> hi chillyilly
<chillywilly> hey SachaS__ too
<chillywilly> hey I downloaded your paper
<chillywilly> haven't had time to read it though
<sachas__> do you like it?
<sachas__> ok.
<chillywilly> looks good form my browsing
<chillywilly> er, from
<chillywilly> but I need to read it all
<sachas__> cool.
<ajmitch> afternoon sachas_
<sachas__> i can start my ebXML masters by research soooon.
<sachas__> hi ajmitch.
<sachas__> when I get a desk and a chair and internet connection at the University I might have more time for irc and gnue.
<sachas__> see you later.
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<dnWork> i missed most of back log
Nick change: dnWork -> derek
<derek> return_this: items
<derek> jabber: i see this as a component in two ways
<derek> a. as an option for asyncronous messaging in gnurpc (i.e. just one more rpc choice)
<derek> b. as a integral part of the groupware/workflow components
<derek> part (a) is not much explored in the jabber world part (b) woudl very much use jabber as it sits today
<derek> mozilla:
<derek> a. i see someone could make an 'alternative' forms client with XUL model and java script
<nickr> thats how I use jabber
<derek> i dont see much 'value' upfront in mozilla/gnue collaboration 
<derek> i.e. the amount of work for the return probably isnt that high
<derek> but i do see promise in jabber/gnue and some jabber developers at one point showed interest
<derek> i dont think its what core gnue developers should be focusing on
<derek> but certainly those familiar with jabber protocol could be put to good use :)
<derek> with that i will be quiet (for a bit anyhow) ;)
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--- Thu Apr 11 2002