[00:06] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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Action: nickr admits that he likes Air
<nickr> also Huschke
<nickr> also making mad gridcosm tiles
<dtm> nmbioitdhgm,097
<nickr> ques ora es?
<dtm> Mon Apr 15 22:45:39 PDT 2002
<dtm> la hora es ahora
<dtm> !!!
<nickr> haha
<dtm> arriba!!!
<nickr> <i>!!!!</i>
Action: ajmitch runs
<dtm> lol
<dtm> ajmitch: JESH   EEET EEES I!!!
<nickr> yikes
<dtm> fyi, i'm chillywilly's personal business development advisory board
<nickr> thats doubly scary
<dtm> FE3R
<ajmitch> ah well
<nickr> man I wish I could play cello like Huschke
<dtm> J3SH J00 D0
<ajmitch> dtm: no, it's PH34R
<nickr> PHJ33R!
<dtm> fay-air
<dtm> oh btw
<dtm> HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN <i>!!</i>
<dtm> hahehehe
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Action: nickr sets dtm up the ð
Action: ajmitch takes the caffiene away from dtm
<dtm> i've been microwaving smores
<nickr> mmmm
<dtm> cheap snax
<dtm> happened to have some baking mini M&Ms and marshmallows and graham crackers
<dtm> before, we put vanilla ice cream and fresh strawberries in the blender for a shake
<dtm> that was good too
<dtm> and last night i made mom a cherry pepsi float (with maraschino cherries and cherry juice)
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<dtm> the economic downturn has made me more creative and i appreciate it ;)
<dtm> psu: wer
<dtm> d
<psu> yo
<nickr> wed up
<nickr> verd, even
<ajmitch> yo psu
<ajmitch> ciamar a tha thu?
<psu> ajmitch: and the same to you ;-)
<psu> (covers just about all possible meanings)
<ajmitch> lol
<ajmitch> you should know what it means, psu ;)
<psu> Well, we haven't been taken over by the Scots yet
<psu> Although
<psu> as a publicity stunt
<psu> the Scottish Tourist Board have offered to buy back the border town 
<psu> of Berwick upon Tweed
Action: ajmitch noticed the quote from irc on the top of KC #24
<psu> for 10,000 marks (GBP 7000)
<psu> which is what the Scots sold it to England for in the first place
<psu> heh
<ajmitch> hehe
<derek> psu: dont kill me i sent you a bunch of dcl items
<derek> a lot of reassigned one
<derek> s
<derek> you be official webmonkey now :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> hey derek
Nick change: psu -> webslave
Nick change: webslave -> psu
Action: ajmitch looks at list of items to do, to see if any can be done by ajmitch
<ajmitch> psu: you want any help with webslave activities? :)
<psu> lemme have a look
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<psu> logging in to DCl
<psu> "Do you trust www.gnuenterprise.org?" hmmm...
<ajmitch> hehe
<psu> somehow never gives me quite the same chill factor as 
<psu> "Always trust Microsoft [y/n]?"
<ajmitch> hehe :)
<derek> psu: you know what we americans say
<derek> 'there is a sucker born every day'
<ajmitch> ah, derek is here
<derek> so...
<derek> do you trust gnuenterprise.org ?
Action: ajmitch does
<ajmitch> ;)
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<ajmitch> see anything psu?
<psu> not at moment, I'm afraid
<psu> lots of things I can close right away, however
<psu> "not needed anywmore. go away"
<psu> that;s my favourite kind of bug/task resolution
<ajmitch> :)
<psu> well, that and "User dropped down dead. Close log"
<derek> hmmm dont tell jamest that user dropping dead means you can close a ticket
<derek> or his work might find a lot of folks turning up mysteriously deceased ;)
<ajmitch> :)
Action: ajmitch wonders how he can actually help apart from irc motivation :)
<ajmitch> where's the parts of GEAS v2 docs that can be thrown together?
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<dtm> "whois awk?", sed Grep.
Action: nickr murders dtm
Action: dtm becomes henceforthly murdered
<dtm> reeeeeeeed.... ruuuuuuuum....
<nickr> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/data/pictures/people/nick/webcam-16apr-2002-kool.jpg
<nickr> I think I'm getting the crusty unix guy look down
Action: ajmitch looks
<derek> nickr: bigger beard you might almost look like stallman
Action: ajmitch screams in horror
<ajmitch> it's sad actually, i've got short hair & no beard
<nickr> hehe
<dtm> nickr: yeah you're getting there, bro
<ajmitch> we're proud of you man!
Action: nickr grins
<nickr> man gtcd sucks.
Action: ajmitch collects the random pieces of GEAS v2 docs & suggestions
<ajmitch> a futile effort?
<reinhard> ajmitch: not sure
<reinhard> not sure what exists by now
<ajmitch> so far, not much, i think
<ajmitch> your whitepaper, neilt's pic showing a structure, i think chillywilly might have some stuff as well
<ajmitch> i'll look thru email archives
<reinhard> i think chilly hasn't committed it yet
<ajmitch> yeah, he hasn't, i tried to get him to commit it yesterday :)
<derek> dtm: you here?
<derek> if so do you ahve an account to DCL on GNUe?
<ajmitch> derek: nickr murdered him
<derek> appears you do have 
<derek> ajmitch: its ok masta expects dead folks to pull their own weight (pun intended)
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> ok, so far there's not much available in the way of stuff on geas, apart from reinhard's whitepaper
<dtm> derek: yes i do
<dtm> derek: wussup
<ajmitch> reinhard: is there going to be a different cvs dir for the new geas, or gonna drop it in the existing dir?
<reinhard> i'll create a new directory "appserver"
<ajmitch> alright
<reinhard> to be consistent with "forms" "reports" etc
Action: reinhard slaps himself for not having more GNUe time
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> no worries
<ajmitch> that's why derek hires slaves like chillywilly
<reinhard> it hurts so much to see people wanting to help and not even having time to put them to work
<nickr> that 'hires' euphamism is great
<nickr> makes it sound like theres no trout slapping involved
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> a few employee relations problems, i guess
<dtm> the IRS declares an employee/employer classification where the employer specifies the size and species of trout, as well as the time and location of regular slappings.  it is not merely a question of "shall we slap?" but rather of "of whence and whither to slap?" that qualifies GNUe as a strictly contractual engagement.
<dtm> ianatsl
<ajmitch> rofl
<dtm> derek: isn't that right?
<dtm> ....or something.
<nickr>  lol
<dtm> :)
<dtm> I HAVE NOT BATHED TODAY.
<dtm> nickr and i shall be creating a club for that
Action: ajmitch steps away quickly
<dtm> i think someone set ajmitch's console to "always_run 1"
<nickr> time to make the zzzz time to make the zzzz 
<ajmitch> dtm: you are just a scary individual
<dtm> he's like a crustacean or something
<dtm> nickr: hehehe
<dtm> ajmitch: well ok then
<nickr> I bathed today, mere hours ago
<dtm> nickr: excellent.
<nickr> but now its time to make the zzz
<dtm> nickr: you go and do that
<ajmitch> i'm a fragile person, not used to people like dtm
<dtm> ajmitch: i hear ya   :-I
<dtm> I assure you; I'm perfectly safe.
<ajmitch> *cough*
<dtm> why, I even called chillywilly on the phone for a few mins tonight and ya know what he said?
<dtm> he said he expected me to be heinously goofy and instead i sounded like a "know it all"
<ajmitch> 'here's a trout for ya! *slap*"
<dtm> wait...  i thought i had a point or something.
<ajmitch> hehe
<dtm> so i see there are only 2 pages of WOs in gnue's dcl!
<ajmitch> sad, isn't it
<ajmitch> i wonder if i can add more
<dtm> that's correct though, right?
<ajmitch> yeah
<dtm> there's no libgd so i can't see a graph!
<ajmitch> sigh
<derek> dtm: sent you mail about why i asked ifyou had account on dcl
<dtm> ok
Action: dtm reads
<dtm> derek: but dont you agree about my view of IRS classifications as listed above?
<dtm> derek: oh yeah i'll do that stuff in the email
Action: ajmitch wonders when chillywilly will be trusted with a dcl account ;)
<derek> yeah
<derek> im off to bed
Nick change: derek -> dnSleep
<ajmitch> hmm, deep mystery...
<dtm> dnSleep: take care, bruh
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<dtm> Yurik: hi
<Yurik> dtm: hi
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Action: ajmitch starts singing
<dtm> o/~
<ajmitch> ah, life!
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Action: ajmitch wonders when this channel will be alive & teeming with lifeforms
<ajmitch> hi btami
<btami> hi ajmitch
<ra3vat> ajmitch: lifeforms?
<ajmitch> ra3vat: yeah
<ajmitch> ra3vat: preferably human :)
<ra3vat> :)
<btami> hi ra3vat
<btami> your old keyb fix is in CVS again
<ra3vat> btami: hello
<btami> thanks to jcater
<ra3vat> i was quite busy last days
<ra3vat> yes, thanks to jcater
<btami> what about python2.2.1u
<btami> have you tried it?
<ra3vat> we have simple test that was tested on Arturas' w2k machine
<ra3vat> but last week there was not progress on my side
<btami> :(
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<Arturas> Hello :)
<ra3vat> hello Arturas
<dnSleep> hi Arturas
<btami> Arturas:hello
<ra3vat> hi all
Action: Arturas  is becoming popular? :)
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<btami> jcater: have you seen my jpg-s about "collapsed" forms?
<jcater> I received them
<jcater> but haven't had a chance to look yet
<dnWork> btami: you should have named them
<dnWork> young_lolita.jpg and hot_steamy_oral.jpg
<btami> :)
<jcater> krispykremecertificate.tiff
<btami> just wxMODERN_non_fixedfont_wrong.jpg :(
<jamest> btami: this is the fixed font vs non fixed font issue
<jamest> btami: we can't just move to non fixed font and it totally screws up some forms
<jamest> however
<jamest> in your gnue.conf file you should find
<jamest> # The next 2 options are only used by the wxPython clients
<jamest> # Normally, default font style and size is used, according to the active theme
<jamest> # Set this to 1 if you want fixed width fonts
<jamest> fixedWidthFont = 1
<btami> not, this is MODERN/DEFAULT issue
<jamest> ah
<jamest> then I misunderstood the issue
<Arturas> hm, question a bit out-of theme - did someone ever installed fonts manually (under linux)?
<btami> in w2k wxMODERN doesn't contain all hungarian chars
<jcater> btami: the issue with us is that wxDEFAULT falls back to non-fixed width fonts
<jcater> even if that's not the immediate issue
<jcater> that's a secondary issue with us
<btami> no
<btami> wxDEFAULT is fixed
<jcater> on your system, it may be
<btami> if i see correct
<jcater> but by default, its not
<jcater> as I tried it on my system
<btami> oh
<btami> in w2k ?
<jamest> we could add this as YAWW (yet another windows workaround :) patch 
<jamest> if sys.platform="win32": #sigh :)
<jamest>   use the other font setup
<jcater> btami: no, win98 and linux
<btami> aha
<jcater> what I *really* want to do
<jcater> is let the sysadmin specify exactly *what* font to use
<jcater> and if none is specified, use the wxMODERN
<btami> in gnue.conf ?
<jcater> yes
<btami> ok
<jcater> I've had really bad luck playing with wx's font system
<jcater> I tried this a month or so ago
<jcater> and it was a collosal failure :(
<jcater> but that's what I really want to see happen
<jamest> wx fonts = pain
<jamest> pure pain
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<jamest> what we have today is the result of lots of trial and error which has resulted in something that "sucks less"
<jamest> less than what I'm not sure though :)
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<btami> this was sent to jcater http://www.extra.hu/berado88/wxMODERN-fixedWidth-WRONG.jpg
<btami> and this http://www.extra.hu/berado88/wxDEFAULT_fixedWidth_12point_OK.jpg
<btami> by (must go home)
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Nick change: SachaS -> Sacha_away
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<Arturas> Derek: wrote a few lines for you to dnSleep
Action: jcater is away: lunch
Nick change: ^chewie -> saladshooter
Nick change: saladshooter -> ^chewie
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<^chewie> mmm...raman
<dnWork> jamest / jcater any chance specifying own fonts would fix darn ugly dropdown boxes?
<dnWork> ;)
<dnWork> btw> i got my SAP DB 7.3 cd in mail from SAP it only took like 4 days (from germany)
<dnWork> that might be faster than jamest could download it :)
<dnWork> and lo behold it has the sources :) and make environment
Action: dnWork is most impressed
<jcater> ugly dropdowns?
<jcater> we have ugly dropdowns?
<dnSleep> jcater: sadly yes
<dnSleep> they are a different 'size' than the other widgets and the font appears different in them
<jcater> is this dual-personality day
<jcater> we have dnWork and dnSleep
<jcater> all talking in the same channel
<dnSleep> jcater: well isnt that the same thing?
<dnSleep> sleep and work
Action: jcater needs to get a job in the gov't sector then
<dnSleep> roflmao
<dnSleep> actually had to take doggie to vet today 
<dnSleep> so just packing up and heading out to work
Action: jcater is back (gone 01:09:04)
<nickr> is SAP Free?
<jcater> SAP DB is
<jcater> GPL'd
<jcater> SAP Applications are not
<nickr> Ah.
<nickr> heh, no debian package..
<jcater> it's in the works, iirc
<nickr> hehe
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<psu> hi all
<ra3vat> hello psu
<jamest> dnWork: no, own fonts won't fix problem IIRC
<jamest> we had to put a fudge factor into the dropdown size calculations , again IIRC
<jamest> i don't recall why but I'm pretty sure it had something to do with my tester always running some damn themed desktop vs the default one I aways stick with
<jamest> !@#!@# tester anyway
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<Arturas> bye :)
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<reinhard> night all
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<jcater> I just love his exit messages
<jcater> he's my /quit hero
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> psu started good ones too
<dneighbo> i liked his /quit When my quit messages grow up they want to work for reinhard
<dneighbo> or something
<jcater> rofl
<dneighbo> I had two good quotes recently:
<dneighbo> Everyone is entitled to be stupid, just some people abuse the privelege
<dneighbo> (or something close to that)
<jcater> woohoo! I submitted my first DCL patch today
<dneighbo> and i really love this one
<dneighbo> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw
<dneighbo> as often times some one here says lets do XYZ
<dneighbo> not taking into account any impact the relations XYZ have on anything else
<dneighbo> So I say sounds, good but work cause it breaks XYZ's relationships...
<dneighbo> at which point im being 'negative'
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> jcater: you patch against head?
<dneighbo> or against a branch?
<jcater> um
<jcater> dcl-20020215
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> i might need your help later on how to do that :)
<dneighbo> as i have been mostly owrking in head, but see somethings i want to chagne in the last release :)
<jcater> I added "Mailer: noreply-dcl@myhost.mydomain.com" to his email headers
<dneighbo> i didnt get a commit message
<jcater> so I can filter the damn things
<dneighbo> why couldnt you filter them before?
<jcater> since the From: is always the user's name and the To: is your name
<jcater> there wasn't much to filter against
<jcater> at one point, I was searching for [WO#.* in the subject
<jcater> but once some gnue butt decided to use DCL for a free software project
<dneighbo> jcater: doh thats right, i think here i hacked it to always send from a special account
<jcater> that didn't work out so well
<dneighbo> instead of from the 'user'
<dneighbo> at some point might want to make that an option
<dneighbo> as right now if i get a ticket and hit reply to all it probably emails the original ticket submitter
<dneighbo> which in a lot of environments might be good
<dneighbo> but we really want the end users communicating with developers through DCL not individual email :)
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<nickr> yay, I got the job in OR
Action: talli dips his toe into the #gnuenterprise water
<talli> anyone mind if a newbie asks a status question?
<talli> i know those can be annoying...
<dneighbo> nope if we dont like the question we will ignore you :)
<talli> deal
<nickr> or hurl rotton carrots at you
<talli> i noticed that there's been quite a bit of activity with GNUe Reports in CVS the past few weeks
<talli> has it's status of proof of concept changed at all?
Action: dneighbo notes that talli is observant, thus elevating him out of 'newbie' status ;)
<dneighbo> talli the proof of concept works
<dneighbo> if you take the foobulations report
<dneighbo> and run it, it reads teh database and creates resulting XML
<dneighbo> and we have text and html transformations of that XML
<talli> nice
<dneighbo> jcater has started solidifying the 'ease' of use side and i think has made good strides
<talli> if i have a project that needs to go into production, and i have developers to implement it, would you recommend its use?
<dneighbo> i.e. so you can do something like reports -output=html -d theoutput.html myreport.gfd
<dneighbo> also as part of that work he has bolted on
<dneighbo> output types fax and email and printer
<dneighbo> all of which work
<dneighbo> so you can run a report and have it go direclty to fax, email, printer or file in txt or html format
<talli> wow!!
<talli> that's great
<dneighbo> talli i would say if you have to be in production like today and you arent willing to 'suffer the ills' of using growing software
<dneighbo> then reports is not for you today
<chillywilly> why can I never find what I am looking for
Action: chillywilly digs through hsi moutain of papers
<talli> well, i would say that we have a few months before production
<dneighbo> IF however you have a little time before you need to be in produciton i.e. you are coding production
<chillywilly> er, hisi mountain
<talli> and certainly more than that before reports are critical
<chillywilly> fuck
<dneighbo> and you have developers on staff that can quickly patch code if for some reason the reports development team is around
<talli> ok, that sounds great
<dneighbo> then reports might be a pretty good bet for you
<dneighbo> i will also say that for immediate focus text and html will be the concentrated outputs
<dneighbo> but i am looking at gnumeric and excell outputs as well
<talli> what is the current major stepping stones?
<dneighbo> ps, pdf etc will come shortly but with XSLT they have to go to FO first which i need to study up on
<talli> in particular, what is the work entailed in creating new reports? is that a developer exercise or someone that is reasonably technical can do it?
<dneighbo> also currently there is no visual report designer though we are expecting that our current visual forms designer will be easily adapted to the task
<dneighbo> talli if they know markup they can do it
<dneighbo> i.e. if they could write an html report they could write a gnue report right now
<nickr> someone will have to make a Python FO engine or else install java.
<dneighbo> nickr dont tell me that
<dneighbo> as when i hear you say that, i remember i am somewhat of an old skool postscript wizard
<talli> dneighbo: thanks alot!
<nickr> dneighbo: guess what? ;)
<dneighbo> and im HIGHLY likely to instead go straight from XML to raw postscript as we have a python libary for postscript
<nickr> dneighbo: you should write a FO engine instead
<dneighbo> talli : http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/hold/monthly.grd
<jcater> no
<dneighbo> is what a report looks like
<dneighbo> no?
<jcater> FO engine would take ENTIRELY too long to write
<jcater> that's an admirable long-term goal
<jcater> but probably outside our current scope
<dneighbo> jcater i agree
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/hold/monthly.xml
<jcater> dneighbo: that no wasn't directed at what you were explaining :)
<nickr> is FO really that complex?
<dneighbo> is what is created after you run that .grd through the 'engine'
<nickr> surely its mappable to TeX or something
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/hold/monthly.html
<dneighbo> is then the resulting html output
<dneighbo> btw: the links are output from the sample in cvs
<dneighbo> and were created not manufactured by actually executing the report and the transformation :)
<talli> very nice!
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/hold/monthly.txt
<dneighbo> is the text output (notice columns look like crap) its on our todo list :)
<jcater> note that the html and text markups are quick little scripts dneighbo did
<dneighbo> but that gives you some idea of where it sits
<dneighbo> jcater : absolutely they will only get better and better
<jcater> and if dneighbo can do those, it proves to me that writing other output formats will be trivial
Action: jcater ducks
<dneighbo> jcater: i couldnt agree more :)
<dneighbo> that was the point that if in a night or two we can get that kind of output we should be able to do some pretty cool stuff
<talli> that's really great
<talli> the issue for me currently is the end-user interface
<dneighbo> with nickrs help most of that report for html has css (so any html person) could alter it without touching any real 'code' or xslt style sheets
<talli> i don't think that is too much of a pain, thouhg
<talli> as there are some new WYSIWYG apps for XML
<dneighbo> we dont have an end user interface yet (only command line)
<dneighbo> as for the report builder our designer will allow you to drag and drop to create reports
<talli> wow. that's even cooler!
<jcater> note that the "will" is future tense
<jcater> not present tense
<dneighbo> i will go out on a limb and say after we nail some basic reports and iron out some kinks that will be probably high on the list of next steps
<jcater> dneighbo: yes, I agree
<jcater> I plan to put reports into production use fairly quickly
<dneighbo> as to a 'client' for applications
<chillywilly> what's so special about FO?
<chillywilly> I dun get it
<dneighbo> the GNUe Reports is an 'engine' in teh sense is it can be a server
<chillywilly> wtf
<talli> are you guys familiar with the OpenACS project?
<dneighbo> so fairly quickly we should support clients that can talk some form of RPC (CORBA or XML-RPC etc) to talk to it
<chillywilly> why do women never answer the phone
<dneighbo> i have heard of it but its been a while
<dneighbo> chillywilly cause they know you are on the other end of the line ;)
<talli> i'm an active member of that project, which seeks to build an "enterprise" collaborative web application enviro
<chillywilly> :P
<^chewie> I'd have to agree with derek, chilly
<jamest> dneighbo: wrote code?
<chillywilly> I am talking about my woman of course
<^chewie> chillywilly: of course
<talli> but that's no so importnat, as much as the use of AOLserver and PG
<jamest> isn't he the guy that just breaks our stuff, claiming bugs and such?
<dneighbo> nickr on further thought i would recommend someone use java FO or such before we write one :)
<^chewie> chillywilly: my woman usually ignores the phone during work and when driving
<dneighbo> only for time savings sake
<^chewie> chillywilly: and if she's on the NordicTrac, the phone is the furthest thing from her mind
<^chewie> ;-)
<jcater> jamest: I think his XSLT stuff was an attempt to break reports
<jcater> so far, it's survived
<jcater> but I know that's his ulterior motive
<dneighbo> jcater: yeah i tried
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<dneighbo> you know what they say
<dneighbo> 'if at first you dont succeed, try and try again'
<jcater> dneighbo: I'll probably be doing so DCL reports soon
<jcater> "management" reports
<^chewie> ;-)
<jcater> if so, I'll put those in our samples tree
<dneighbo> hmm i was going to start that :)
<jcater> well, these may be custom reports
<dneighbo> but would rather do transformations :)
<jamest>  /msg jcater I can slip you the old forms code that segfaulted derek's xserver, that's keeps him busy for a while 
<talli> dneighbo and jcater: if i understand you guys, the main impediment right now are the scripts to translate the generated XML?
<jcater> not rewrites of his existing reports
<^chewie> unfortunately, the demand for a web-based application is forcing me to use zope
<chillywilly> haha, I just talked to her
<^chewie> but that's not all that bad ;-)
<dneighbo> talli : not so much, the main impediment is just getting people to use test and suggest :)
<nickr> I volunteer to write a FO engine in python within 10 years.
<nickr> :)
<jcater> talli: all the transforms and examples you're seeing have come to fruit in the last 10 days
<dneighbo> the text transformation tool needs work and surely things will pop up as reports get mroe complex
<jcater> so this is all fairly recent
<jcater> as such, we don't have many/any mainstream users except my office
<jamest> jcater: did you implement triggers in reports?
<dneighbo> so the main problem with reports is that its an infant :)
<jcater>  /ignore jamest
<jamest> jcater: or no need?
<jcater> jamest: that'll be 0.0.2
Nick change: jamest -> dnKansas
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> rofl
<jcater> rofl
<dnKansas> jcater: did you implement triggers in reports?
<dneighbo> dnKansas there is definitely a need
Nick change: dnKansas -> jamest
<jcater> yes, definitely a need
<jcater> but I feel I have enough to justify a first release
<jcater> am I wrong?
<dneighbo> jamest but until production warrants it there are is plenty else to do :)
<dneighbo> jcater : you are right
<jamest> you are right
<talli> do you guys have a roadmap at all? (just wonderign - i know what building free apps is like...)
<jamest> we've tried
<dneighbo> i think if the text transformation was cleaned up and maybe another sample (specifically like a dcl report) then we are good to go
<dneighbo> talli we will be doing that more as we learn
<talli> dneighbo: i see
<dneighbo> free software is a strange and wild animal
<talli> very much.
<talli> but that's a feature, not a bug ;)
<dneighbo> diong development with people who speak your native tongue as a 4th language and are 10 time zones away
<dneighbo> makes for interesting development at times
<talli> haha
<nickr> dneighbo: are you still having trouble getting tabs into it?
<dneighbo> um i think i got that to work
<dneighbo> that was a temporary solution
<talli> well, a free reports app is certainly among the holy grails in the free software world
<nickr> what would be best is to use xslt to transform it right into text, and then use perl to align and format it
<dneighbo> i really have to do iternations
<dneighbo> to format it
<nickr> perl has EXCELLENT report generation stuff
<dneighbo> so its like
<nickr> that people rarely use
<nickr> which is silly, cause thats what perl is FO
<nickr> R
<dneighbo> um i dont like perl and dont want it as dependency if i had to drop back i would drop to python
<jcater> I agree about perl (i.e., that's what perl IS) but not so sure if I like introducing another layer :(
<dneighbo> would like to see if can do it in XSLT though
<nickr> well whateva
<dneighbo> nickr its not a bad idea
<dneighbo> i just want to try it in XSLT first
<jcater> if we did have to drop back to a scripting language, I'd think that script would read the XML output directly and not bother with an XSLT intermediate translation
<dneighbo> even if its a little tougher as then its not another layer
<dneighbo> jcater: i agree
<dneighbo> jcater: after more toilet thought
<dneighbo> im thinking it will be a lot easier to do width="" on each tag like you had it before
<dneighbo> but we can make the 'designer' do the work
<dneighbo> i.e. if in a header row you set a width it sets teh width for all its children
<talli> can reports be used separately from Designer? i mean, relatively easily/
<jcater> we can do that if needed
<jcater> just seems redundant
<dneighbo>                                                                              yip
<dneighbo> er talli : yip
<jcater> reports isn't even used by designer yet
<talli> cool
<jcater> so that's a resounding yes!
<jcater> :)
<talli> so as of now, a person can define an XML schema and submit it to reports
<dneighbo> you could certainly use emacs or vi or anything that would let you edit flat text or xml
<dneighbo> talli ?
<dneighbo> reports is pretty generic
<talli> the main obstacle in generating the Report is writing the script to translate the XML. those are still in development/
<talli> is this correct thinking/
<talli> ?
<chillywilly> just curious, so FO means that the objects will write themselves out to whatever format?
<dneighbo> if you use the set tags for reporting you can use our transformation tools
<talli> ok, cool
<talli> even for reports of arbitrary complexity?
<dneighbo> if you wanted to make your own tags and transformation tools you could somewhat do that as well
<talli> as long as you write you're own XSLT transforms...
<dneighbo> talli : its a multi step process
<talli> should I be RTFM'ing?
<nickr> chillywilly: FO is an xml schema for physical markup afaik
<chillywilly> oh
<dneighbo> grd (xml report definition) -> report engine (loads data) -> xml output (with data) -> transformation (currently xml) -> output
<chillywilly> FO stands for what again?
<dneighbo> all pieces are written and work
<jcater> chillywilly: Formatting Objects
<dneighbo> its just they are infants :)
<jcater> it's a W3C standard
<talli> dneighbo: yes, i understand
<chillywilly> really
<chillywilly> interesting
<chillywilly> ok, time to order road runner
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> jcater: do we have psp installed on ash?
<dneighbo> if so i think i might whip up something for dcl
<dneighbo> to use our reports as a sample
<dneighbo> i.e. use ashes data to poplulate the report
<dneighbo> but you give some parameters in a web form
<dneighbo> and smack generate report (in a psp page) 
<dneighbo> that then runs report and returns resulting html file
<talli> thanks for all the time and advice, everyone, and especially dneighbo
<talli> i apprecaite it
<dneighbo> talli we have a pretty good community
<talli> seems like it!
<dneighbo> and i can say if you choose to use gnue
<jcater> psp?
<jcater> don't think so
<dneighbo> you will get help :)
<talli> that's awesome
<dneighbo> it might not be useful, but you will get it :)
<dneighbo> psp == python server pages
<jcater> not to my knowledge
<talli> we've had many clients begging for reports, so this will certainly be something that will be on our radar
<jcater> what do we need that for?
<talli> i will see if i can get other members of my community to poke their heads in here and help
<talli> btw, anyone in the boston area?
<dneighbo> um so i can use sabltron inline
<talli> i'm hosting a openacs social there on april 23rd
<talli> free beer
<dneighbo> though i suppose i should look at new reports you checked in 
<jcater> free beer?
<jcater> hmm
<talli> i thought that would get some attention...
<jcater> how far is it from Memphis, TN to Boston?
Action: dneighbo wsa thinking that i would just call reports directly from python server page
<dneighbo> where is 'here'
<jcater> might be worth the drive for free beer :)
<dneighbo> oh boston
Action: dneighbo is lame
<talli> jcater: not too far. can you borrow elvis' jet?
<jcater> hehe
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> well if its a liquor party adn not a tea party
<jcater> don't think so... priscilla has it this weekend
<talli> women.
<dneighbo> it might be more fun to go to memphis
<jcater> if the boston tea party had happened in TN
<jcater> it'd be the Tennessee Whiskey Party
<dneighbo> ;)
<talli> or, the Civil War
<jcater> oh. wait.  we already have those
<talli> anyway, if anyone is in the Cambridge-Boston area and is interested in meeting other geeks over beer and bbq, check out openacs.org
<talli> there's a news item about the social
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I take it you are with OpenACS?
<talli> jcater: yeah, i am
<jcater> we use your site's Why Not MySQL page regularly :)
<jcater> when people ask us :)
<talli> this is my co: http://www.museatech.net
<talli> YES!
<talli> yeah, mysql isn't thought too higly of in hte oacs community
<Isomer> hmm
Action: Isomer is amazed at how many people still try and use it tho
<talli> mostly, we threaten each other with building a site for the other guy's mother on top of mysql
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> we have similar inside jokes
<chillywilly> hehe
<talli> ok,w ell talk to you guys later. thanks for the tip. i'll come by more often
<talli> and come to the oacs social if you're in bsoton!
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Action: chillywilly checks out openacs.org
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<chillywilly> looks cool
<chillywilly> btw, whatever happened to our web ui for forms?
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<^chewie> ok, db normalization question, stragic design
<^chewie> any app that has people involved needs a contact mgmt module
<^chewie> in it, each person needs multiple addresses
<^chewie> you can either create a generic person, person_postaddr, postaddr table combo
<^chewie> or just a person, person_postaddr table where person_id is used to group postaddr's
<^chewie> which, in terms of a practical design decision would you go with
<jcater> I've had better luck with the latter design in real-world usage
Action: ^chewie nods
<Mr_You> re
<^chewie> that's what I'm thinking
<chillywilly> person_postaddr would link the 2 tables in the first one right?
<Mr_You> chilly: yeah I'd like to know ;-)
<^chewie> chillywilly: yeah
<Mr_You> what is the status of OpenACS?
<^chewie> object databases would make this so much easier ;-)
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> like geas's relational layer
Action: ^chewie nods.
<chillywilly> in ODl it has the concept of relations
<chillywilly> er relationships
<^chewie> that's the tricky part
<chillywilly> it's pretty cool and a nice compromise
<^chewie> abstracting object relations
<chillywilly> er, ODL
Action: ^chewie nods
<chillywilly> but of course you still have to map these to a db if you do object-relational layer
<chillywilly> but at least you only hav to do it once
<jcater> of course, you then have to stop and think, "Is this worth all the effort."
<chillywilly> of course
<chillywilly> no pont in doing it for the CS jerk off effect
<chillywilly> like nickr would say
<chillywilly> btw, with that first thing you could do a join and then get the info right?
<^chewie> jcater: you know, the answer to that is sometimes a "kick back, relax, grab a beer, and look at it tomorrow"
<dneighbo> i stepping in middle but how we are curretnly handling
<dneighbo> is
<dneighbo> contact table 
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> address table
<^chewie> chillywilly: yes
<dneighbo> then a contact_address table
Action: Mr_You is not a fan of ACS.
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> dneighbo: thought so
<dneighbo> which has a contact_id and address_id columns
<chillywilly> is a join more or less expensive than a select?
<dneighbo> so you can have unlimited
<dneighbo> addresses for a contact
<^chewie> chillywilly: it is a select ;-)
<^chewie> chillywilly: it's just a special select ;-)
<^chewie> chillywilly: and yes, it's more expensive
<dneighbo> if you are writing this and not THEORIZING
<dneighbo> i strongly urge you look at what we are doing :)
<dneighbo> we are bolting all this onto DCL
<^chewie> I am writing it, actually
<jcater> the issues there is you have to have an easy way to "duplicate" an address, so if a contact moves, but other contacts with the "same" address do not, you can easily/intuitively remove them
<dneighbo> and are looking to make a contact manager for FSF
<^chewie> dneighbo: will do
<dneighbo> and will be part of gnue
<jcater> and the "intuitive" issue is where I've had issues
<dneighbo> the tables are already made
<chillywilly> sorry ^chewie I got you hooked up into my theorizing racket ;?P
<^chewie> ok, gotta go
<^chewie> chillywilly: everyone does.  it's called "over-engineering" and I'm plagued with it sometimes
<^chewie> chillywilly: that's why I'm "doing" instead of "theorizing" right now
<dneighbo> i didnt mean it like that
<chillywilly> heheh
<^chewie> gotta go
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<chillywilly> I;m giving you shit dneighbo
<dneighbo> i was curious as to whether it was a general design question
<Mr_You> eeww over-engineering is icky
<dneighbo> or a hey im doing this right now whats best :)
<chillywilly> you know I love ya
Action: chillywilly is plagued with this also
<chillywilly> but that's nothing new
<jcater> dneighbo: how do you handle the issue I brought up?
<jcater> as I'm quite curious
<jcater> as the 3 table approach is better normalized
<chillywilly> man I want to hack tonight
<jcater> but is not intuitive to the end-user outside of basic functionality
<chillywilly> I have to got ot he hospital and see the new baby caroline's sister had
<chillywilly> boy aren't my priorieties h0rked
<chillywilly> wtf does 'normalized' mean again anyway in db terms?
<jcater> http://www.datamodel.org/NormalizationRules.html
<chillywilly> oooooh
<chillywilly> tnx
<dneighbo> sorry was away
<dneighbo> um the three table approach you use the UI to abuse it
<jcater> ooooo
<dneighbo> i.e. you have a special 'copy' function for address
<jcater> chillywilly: here's a better one: http://www.fmsinc.com/tpapers/datanorm/
<dneighbo> you open a contact
<dneighbo> then if you want to use an existing address (9 out of 10 times you know the address by the person/company/etc)
<dneighbo> you look up that portion and then click the copy button
<dneighbo> this makes a NEW entry in teh contact_address table
<dneighbo> AND a new entry in the ADDRESS table
<dneighbo> i.e. it doesnt FULLY normalize things
<jcater> now, see
<dneighbo> in a full normalization
<jcater> this is what I thought
<dneighbo> it would share the same address id
<jcater> so what's the purpose of three tables then... you are using them as 2
<dneighbo> um so you can have unlimited
<jcater> i.e., there's a 1:1 between contact_address and address
<dneighbo> if you only have two tables
<chillywilly> I see so a nromailzed db design makes sure that it is flexible enough so that you don't have to muck with fields much
<dneighbo> you would either put the addressid in the contact, or the contactid in teh address
<dneighbo> allowing you only ONE
<chillywilly> thus making it more efficient
<jcater> chillywilly: so you don't have to deal with redundant data
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> yea, I see that point too
<dneighbo> you could certainly do contact in the address table
<dneighbo> and just duplicate up
<jcater> well, you'd put the contactid in the address table
<dneighbo> but it leaves you locked into a 1:1 regardless
<jcater> my point is, the way you described, that's exactly what you're accomplishing
<dneighbo> for contacts generally this is a good thing
<dneighbo> but when you move to say companies
<dneighbo> some times its nice to have the many to many
<chillywilly> "A primary goal of good database design is to make sure your data can be easily maintained over time. Databases are great at managing more records. They are terrible if fields need to be added since all its queries, forms, reports, and code are field dependent.
<chillywilly> "
<dneighbo> have the table gives you the flexibility if you are mad enough to make the corresponding gui to support it
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> its kind of pain as normally i would say 1:1 is sufficient
<jcater> so you are designing a database backend that will handle much more than what the GUI will actually be throwing at it
<jcater> that has merit
<dneighbo> jcater: yes
<jcater> although I question the logic
<dneighbo> i dont think its that much of a performance hit
<jcater> but I do see the merit
<dneighbo> but i suppose it could be
<chillywilly> ok, I will ask the unthinkable
<dneighbo> i need a white board :)
<dneighbo> on irc
<chillywilly> is doing an object-relational layer worth the effort?
<jcater> chillywilly: huh?
<jcater> for what?
Action: dneighbo wonders if it is worth going back to address/contact
<chillywilly> in the app server or in the enterprise
<jcater> oh
<chillywilly> GNUe
<jcater> I can't answer that
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> err, I will refrain from answering that
<dneighbo> i will discuss with mdean
<chillywilly> if you don't think so then say it
<jcater> I have been for a long time
<jcater> or so I thought
<dneighbo> as im recalling that at axis they had how i described and i was wanting to go to the pared down model you are describing
<dneighbo> (as at that time forms didnt like that model) :)
<dneighbo> though with some block hacking i got it to work
<dneighbo> but it was really only doing 1:1
<jcater> btw, I know the merits of both designs... I've used them both
<jcater> I was just curious, if you were using the 3-table approach, how
<jcater> you pulled off the GUI
<jcater> but you've answered my question
<jcater> You didn't
<jcater> you just made an allowance for future use
<jcater> I haven't figured out how to make an acceptable interface to that 3-table design either :(
<dneighbo> well i actually had a design to the 3 table for ui
<dneighbo> but the problem is its not overtly intuitive but more so, it leads to people freaking out
<jcater> yeah
<dneighbo> ex:
<jcater> my experience exactly
<dneighbo> karl foo registers as contact with address 101 foo street
<dneighbo> next week his daughter registers with address 101 foo street and the same id is used
<dneighbo> 2 years later 
<dneighbo> his daughter comes in and says oh my address changed, so the address is updated
<dneighbo> the next day karl comes in and is like wtf, thats my daughters address :)
<jcater> my experience exactly :)
<dneighbo> i.e. the person registering isnt smart enough
<dneighbo> (not because they are dumb)
<dneighbo> to know when to inherit and address
<dneighbo> and when to create a new one
<dneighbo> when to do a global change etc etcc
<dneighbo> plus the gui usually ends up more cumbersome
<dneighbo> to support the different options
<dneighbo> at first i was thinking in a corporate environment this would be good though
<dneighbo> in sense if say i deal with INTEL and they have 100 employees
<dneighbo> its easier to maintain one address than 100 if intel moves
<dneighbo> but the reality is the bigger the company the more ADDRESS it has
<jcater> :)  that's why I said to ^chewie that my real world experience lends me to using the 2-table design instead of the 3-table
<dneighbo> and poeple move aournd etc etc etc
<jcater> and then you came in and contradicted me :)
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> easier to write a 'address updater'
Action: dneighbo goofed, forgive me :)
Action: dneighbo was thinking that i went with easier model in DCL
<dneighbo> as i had issues at AJRS
<dneighbo> but it appears i wasnt thinking clearly there
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Action: chillywilly feels good because he actually followed that ;P
<jcater> chillywilly: we're gonna make you a relational trout before you know it
<jcater> I have another perfect argument for Relational vs Object
<jcater> go to your significant other
<jcater> 1) Call her an Object
<chillywilly> object have relations though
<jcater> 2) Call her a good Relation
<jcater> see which one gets you slapped
<jcater> hell, you can even call her a "Good Object"
<jcater> but still see which one gets you slapped
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> what's the relational equivalent to inheritance?
<jcater> inheritance is an object concept
<chillywilly> I can expand a table using an existing table can I?
<jcater> that's like asking to compare the tractor equivalent of love
<chillywilly> er, can't
<jcater> or the trout equivalent of wings
<chillywilly> say i want to add several fields without modifying yhe yable
<jcater> it just ain't gonna happen
<chillywilly> er, table
<jcater> two different paradigms
<chillywilly> can;t be done can it?
<jcater> two different paradigms
<chillywilly> Is ee objects as a bit more flexible in that regrad
<chillywilly> regard
<chillywilly> see
<chillywilly> typing sucks
<jcater> tell me about it
<jcater> you should try speaking sometime
<jcater> it's even worse
<chillywilly> to large crowds?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> anyway, I don't know why we always have to have these object vs. relational flame wars
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> actually you can create new columns in sql
<dneighbo> that are temporary
<dneighbo> cross tab queries and things like sums etc
<dneighbo> are exmaples of this
<dneighbo> but true be it different model :)
<jcater> also, you can have "key" fields
<jcater> they describe what kind of "object" this "record" is
<jcater> if you MUST compare paradigms
<jcater> but still, it's apples vs oranges
<jcater> both have merit
<jcater> and both have shortcomings
<jcater> i.e., I don't have a new table for each "class" of employee
<jcater> I just have an "employee_type" field
<chillywilly> and I thought the whole point was to provide some choice anyway...
<jcater> sure
<jcater> that's counter to everything I've heard about geas to date, though
<chillywilly> does employee_type point to a table?
<jcater> chillywilly: it could
<chillywilly> uh?
<jcater> I would have an employee_types table
<jcater> with a description
<chillywilly> the current geas wasn't designed by anyone except andrewm...I can't take much credit for it's wondeful *cough* design
<jcater> well, even in talks
<jcater> geas always ends up being "object"
<jcater> which I guess is fine
<jcater> but that's still not a "choice
<jcater> "
<dneighbo> my big gripe with object data storage is it leaves you locked into a vendor
<dneighbo> more so than SQL
<chillywilly> I wrote a so-call OQL module that doesn't do OQL and recursive gcd parsing code
<chillywilly> er, processing
<dneighbo> i.e. most object systems require the object environment of said system as only way to deal with the data
<dneighbo> at least the 2 i worked with did
<jcater> supposedly OQL will alleviate some of that dependency
<jcater> just like SQL did
<dneighbo> both eventually made odbc drivers to help eliminate some of the interoperation issues
<jcater> but I don't work w/object databases, so I can't attest to that
<dneighbo> but did not remove the vendor lock in issue
<dneighbo> jcater:  i think thats fair but like m$
<dneighbo> the leading object folks dont REALLY want a standard
<chillywilly> neither do I, but there's a standard that should be vender neutral ;)
<dneighbo> as they lose thier lockin
<jcater> dneighbo: I have no idea
<jcater> just an observation
<dneighbo> i.e. its hard because the little guys want the standard
<chillywilly> ODMG doesn't seem to be implementation specific at all
<dneighbo> bu tthe big guys dont (well tehy say they do, but they drag their feet)
<chillywilly> OMG has a persistence service IIRC
<jcater> the same could be said about sql... basic sql should work across all sql vendors.. but you still have "Oracle SQL", "DB2 SQL", "SAP SQL"
<jcater> once you get out of the basic stuff
<jcater> but, still, I agree
<jcater> even if it's only because of the years on the market
<jcater> relational databsaes are more compatable
<jcater> whether they wanted to be or not :)
<chillywilly> sure
<chillywilly> people like to screw each other
<jcater> well
<jcater> I prefer women only
<chillywilly> well tell M$ to get their dick out of everyone's ass ;)
<jcater> dneighbo: you get my Object vs Relational joke
<jcater> re asking your significant other?
<chillywilly> you said that one before you know
<chillywilly> you need new material
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> I know
Action: jcater hangs his head low
<jcater> oooo, a penny
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> yes i did
<chillywilly> man I don't want to drive all the way to Columbia hospital it's too far
<jcater> chillywilly: then call
<chillywilly> that's not too good though
<chillywilly> I should go anyway
<jcater> "So, what's the sex attribute of your little object?"
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> that's a good one
<jcater> "The one with your subclassed DNA?"
<dneighbo> http://www.tietovayla.fi/borland/cplus/revquide/oo1_rel.htm
<dneighbo> looks interesting
<chillywilly> designk
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> I'll have to read that later
<dneighbo> i think most women say i dont care if you see me as object or relation as long as you dont ask me to spawn any new processes
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> posix_spawn()
<jcater> not my woman
<chillywilly> fork()
<jcater> :(
<jcater> already wanting another jcater.fork()
<chillywilly> mount;  fsck; unmount
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> fork
<chillywilly> this is the cycle of life...
<jcater> however
<jcater> the filesystem logic goes in reverse
<jcater> i.e., 
<jcater> you start out with an ext3 system
<jcater> mount;  fsck; unmount
<jcater> goes quickly
<jcater> but as you mature, you move to an "ext2" system
Action: jcater will stop there
<chillywilly> I am pretty sure I have an ext2 filesystem
<chillywilly> wtf is nfa?
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> wrong window
<dneighbo> http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~akmal/ot97.dir/ot97.html
<dneighbo> also interesting
<Mr_You> journaling fs should become standard.. will probably go ext3 I guess
<Mr_You> or clusterfs
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<dneighbo> journalling filesystems are for those cops that patrol for devices solicting mounting
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Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:17:16)
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<chillywilly> sup jcater
<chillywilly> back for more eh?
<jcater> um
<jcater> sure
<chillywilly> eheheh
<chillywilly> sya dudes
<chillywilly> I am leaving now
<chillywilly> bye
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<nickr> Windows is really freaking annoying.
<dtm> hi all
<jcater> It's nickr, hereafter known as "Master of the Obvious"
<jcater> ;)
<jcater> dtm: howdy
<nickr> Thats Captain Obvious to you
<nickr> I just don't normally deal with it, but I have a powerful hunger to play Starcraft. 
<jcater> lol
Action: dneighbo wonders how microsoft was chosen by gamers?
<dneighbo> i mean it pisses me off when in the middle of pod racer the friggin thing just HANGS
<nickr> yea
<nickr> I dunno.
<nickr> my installation's DX is fucked, and theres no way to wipe and reinstall it without wiping the whole installation.
<drochaid> oi! windows rawkz!!
<drochaid> muahahhaahahaahhhaaa
<nickr> gar
<nickr> format is gonna take 3 weeks
<nickr> dneighbo: oh btw, according to a recent thread on debian-devel you should try using the VESA driver until xf86 4.2 comes out, it appearently works pretty well
<nickr> for that one card
<nickr> cyberblade
<nickr> the cyberblade and 2 other cards are the only three that don't work with 4.1 appearently
<nickr> matrox g550 is another
<dneighbo> nickr if you knew my luck they need not even ask the question
<dneighbo> merely they just had to ask what hardware is dneighbo running?
<dneighbo> hmm someone should look at that its probably buggy if suported at all ;)
<dneighbo> nickr i will bug you when i get home on configuring it
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<ajmitch> afternoon all
<jcater> howdy
<dtm> ajmitch: ITS YOU <i>!!</i>
<ajmitch> are you sure, dtm?
<ajmitch> how do you know it's not Bill?
<dtm> j000r h33m.  i gn0 j000r h33m.
<ajmitch> yeah, what he said
Action: ajmitch calls for a translator
<dtm> sorry, i get an accent sometimes.
<jcater> I can do it
<jcater> "george helm is so george helm"
<ajmitch> heh
<dtm> THAT'Z EEET!
<jcater> "
<jcater> "thanks electrical engineers?"
<dtm> J3SH, J00 GAWD EEET!!
<jcater> I do NOT have gawdy feet!
<dtm> SI SI   J00 ARE KEEE-RECKT SIR
<dtm> so are you any of you foolz familiar with DCL administration?
<jcater> somewhat
<ajmitch> not really at the moment
<dtm> you will observe http://home.smuckola.org/dtm_dcl_phpgw_usage_scenario.html
<dtm> i dont know if you guys are into that sort of stuff but if you like, you could sanity check that 
<dtm> have you guys ever used or administrated phpgroupware?
<jcater> no
<jcater> I thought about it for 30 seconds
<jcater> then decided against it
<dtm> ok
<jcater> hmm
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> i've got phpgw installed here
<jcater> I'm getting an unknown host on that url
<ajmitch> don't use it much
<dtm> jcater: well that's just not right!
<dtm> ajmitch: what version
<ajmitch> cvs head from a few days ago
<ajmitch> that url works for me
<dtm> sounds dangerous, my friend
<dtm> then the fates have decided that ajmitch shall evaluate my needs!
<ajmitch> uh oh
<dtm> you may proceed
Action: ajmitch whimpers
<dtm> DO IT
<dtm> ajmitch: 1) do you grok my usage scenario  2) do you grok how i'm implementing it 
<dtm> you will answer those queries in sequence at this time!
<ajmitch> am trying to just grok at the moment
<dtm> THAT IS A DISSATISFACTORY ANSWER.
<dtm> DO NOT RELOAD THE PAGE
<dtm> DO YOU THINK WEB PAGES GROW ON TREES?!  I ONLY HAVE SO MANY!
<ajmitch> you just want to have a seamless dcl/phpgw installation?
<dtm> as much as possible
<ajmitch> alright
<dtm> i have multiple groups, whose participants may be both group coworkers and personal friends, and who also have private lives
<ajmitch> private lives?
<ajmitch> they shoudl be working on GNUe then!!
<dtm> yes, like having "pick up the kids" or "grocery shopping" as a private item
<dtm> !@#*)$
<dtm> INSOLENCE
<dtm> hmm   maybe i could get them or their kids to work on gnue.
<ajmitch> heh
<dtm> kids are free labor
<ajmitch> for sure
<dtm> no talent though.
<dtm> and they chew the toilet paper into shreds :/
<rdean> dcl works within a phpgw installation, but it doesn't really "integrate" itself into the environment...you're basically just running dcl within the phpgw page layout
<dtm> yeah that's fine
<dtm> but anyhow, dcl is a unique beast
<rdean> much like mdean :-)
<dtm> )#@*!
<dtm> rdean: what do you think of my phpgw/dcl buffoonery?
<dtm> ajmitch: so do you grok my usage scenario
<ajmitch> sorta, i think
Action: ajmitch is just plain confused by computers ;)
<dtm> you poor guy
<ajmitch> i know how to turn on one! and i can play solitaire & surf AOL!
Action: rdean uses the new gecko-based Compuserve
<rdean> when I forget that I don't need to run the Compuserve client at all
<rdean> :-)
<dtm> so when are you foolz gonna port phpgw to gnue?
<ajmitch> how far will dcl be 'ported'?
<dtm> i dont know
Action: ajmitch is crazy
Action: rdean is thinking about porting DCL to Java Server Pages
Action: rdean 's employer specifies Java for all the products it develops/purchases
<ajmitch> why JSP?
<ajmitch> why not PSP? ;)
<rdean> see second comment
<ajmitch> i know, but still...
<ajmitch> Jython? ;)
<rdean> heh...they run everything off of Websphere
<rdean> have a JSP project coming up...taking the inquiry part of the invoicing system I work on onto the intranet.
<ajmitch> alright
<rdean> gotta php project coming up for an org I'm in....can't find an online calendar with online signup already built, and they REALLY need one.
Action: rdean digresses
Nick change: Sacha_away -> SachaS
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<ajmitch> yo chillywilly
<chillywilly> yo
<jcater> chilidog!
<chillywilly> jc!
<ajmitch> commit that stuff chillywilly!
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> fine
<chillywilly> sheesh
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Action: ajmitch waits patiently for the commit messages for today to roll in :)
<chillywilly> I am removing the generated files
<ajmitch> hey, jamest committed :)
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<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> where should i put this thing?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> docbook/Proposals?
<ajmitch> possibly
<ajmitch> cos once you commit, we can comment on it & suggest improvements :)
<chillywilly> well I am not sure there's a whole lot to comment on
<jcater> um
<jcater> what are you committing?
Action: jcater prays its not more object cra^Wstuff
<ajmitch> docs & stuff about geas :)
<chillywilly> I mean the out line is sorta incomplete and the ODMG binding is the longest
<chillywilly> jcater: thanks a lot
<ajmitch> jcater: i think it is object cra^Wstuff
<ajmitch> how do you pronounce cra^Wstuff?
<chillywilly> it's the GEAS archictecure document combining all neilt's, reinhard's and my work(s)
<chillywilly> if that's crap then so be it ;)
<jcater> ajmitch: it's pronounced like "Ob-jekt"
<chillywilly> er, architecture even
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<chillywilly> ok, committed
Action: chillywilly troutslaps ajmitch
Action: ajmitch enjoys it :)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> at least someone will
<chillywilly> but I need to work on it some more right now ;)
<chillywilly> man it is hot
<chillywilly> summer is definitely coming
Action: ajmitch starts reading
<chillywilly> hmmm, where's my final commit message at?
<ajmitch> dunno, it disappeared
<ajmitch> probably awaiting moderator approval
<chillywilly> it shoudln't
<chillywilly> it doesn't need any approval
<chillywilly> I have my savannah account added to gnue
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<chillywilly> that's all the approval you need
<chillywilly> cvs write access
<ajmitch> yeah, but some lists need approval for big messages?
<chillywilly> it's not that big though
<ajmitch> sure it is :)
<SachaS> hi chillywilly. i read about mda from omg.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I thought it looked interesting
<chillywilly> OMG is bascially trying to standards everything in the enterprise it seems
<chillywilly> standardize
<SachaS> chillywilly. i like the idea, that business people design a business system with models. 
<SachaS> chillywilly: i also kind of like the idea that then a code generator does the modelling to source code. but i see a lot of problems there
<chillywilly> well we need Free tools to do MDA stuff
<chillywilly> unless by some miracle Rational Rose is released as Free Software ;P
<SachaS> chillywilly: when you change the source code by hand it has to go back to the models, if you change the models the code has to get updated and DONT forget to do the manual changes you did before
<chillywilly> this is what happens when you use Rose too
<SachaS> chillywilly: have you seen argouml ?
<chillywilly> they made us use it in Software design class
<chillywilly> umm, a little
<chillywilly> brb
<SachaS> chillywilly: it might get messy in the code. 
<chillywilly> well Rose worked out ok
<chillywilly> doesn't matter to me I'm not goign to stop my gaeas and odmg work just because I found out that OMG now wants to support all middlewares
<chillywilly> we're still writing out own
<chillywilly> gnurpc is still underway
<SachaS> yes.
<chillywilly> jsut something to keep in mind
<chillywilly> er, I mena the OMG is
<chillywilly> mean
<chillywilly> everyone thinks .NET is the coolest thing right now anyway ;P
<chillywilly> blech
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<chillywilly> if there's one thing I've learned is that the tried and true old technologies still rain supreme
<ajmitch> welcome tnt
<tnt> Hello... could someone PLEASE explain what GNU Bayonne is.   (All I know is that it has something to do with telephony... but I'm not sure what.)
<tnt> ajmitch: Hey :-)
<chillywilly> well for the enterprise it can be used to do voice mail
<ajmitch> i don't know much about bayonne myself, which is why i want someone else to answer ;)
<chillywilly> touch tone phone systems
<chillywilly> like provide a menu for this
<chillywilly> and for that
<tnt> Kool.
<tnt> Can it forward calls... to another number?
<chillywilly> thisisi my vague understanding ;P
<chillywilly> probably
<chillywilly> the bayonne author doesn't hang out here much
<chillywilly> he has a real life (tm)
<chillywilly> ;P
<tnt> :-)
<chillywilly> there's #bayonne but I nbet you $100 it is empty
<tnt> Yup... empty.
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<chillywilly> anyway, I hope you get the picture....it basically provides telephony services like what some sophisticated phone system thingy does
<chillywilly> but with a PC and a telephony phone card
<tnt> What is a telephony phone card?...  Would a 3COM V.90 Modem be an example???
<chillywilly> that would be a modem
<chillywilly> I'm not sure what makes up a telephony card or what they do
<chillywilly> I only understand things froma  superficial level
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: tnt finds an article on NewsForge: http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/12/1739202
<tnt> Anyone used the "SoftPhone"?
<chillywilly> nope....I bet some people here have played with it at LinuxWorld
Action: tnt wonders who wrote the article... they didn't even put a link to the GNU Bayonne, or GNUe websites.
<tnt> That would be something some of my clients would find useful.
Action: tnt takes a look at the GNU Bayonne website, to find something on the SoftPhone.
Action: tnt wonders who made the fonts so small on the GNU Bayonne website.
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<ajmitch> jbailey!!!
<jbailey> ajmitch!!!
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<jcater> tnt: bayonne does a wide range of nifty things
<jcater> an example of a telephony card is: 
<jcater> http://www.intel.com/network/csp/products/4473web.htm
<jcater> bayonne can communicate directly with office PBX's
<jcater> or it can take the place of a PBX
<jcater> in which you have a complete call switching center on a linux box
<jcater> you can use it for voice mail
<jcater> (multiline)
<jcater> you could use it for interactive touch-tone menus
<jcater> including tying back into a database
<jcater> (i.e., pulling up a client's account information via a phone menu)
<jcater> um
<jcater> you could program autodialers
<jcater> (that work with a PBX or just on a plain old telephone line)
<jcater> it's a pretty impressive piece of software
<tnt> Are there any HOWTOs for it?
<tnt> That explain how to set it up.
<jcater> that I don't know
<jcater> I haven't had the opportunity to use it
<jcater> I actually operate a call center
<jcater> and I plan to migrate to a bayonne solution
<jcater> (I've had chances to talk w/the main bayonne guys about their stuff, 
<jcater> which is why I have a decent grasp on what it can do)
<jcater> but beyond that, I'm not going to be much help :(
<tnt> What's a PBX?
<jcater> it is a phone switch/exchange
<jcater> if you've been in an office environment
<jcater> where you can pick up any extension at a desk 
<jcater> and get a line by pressing 9
<jcater> that's a PBX driving those phones
<tnt> OK.
<tnt> (I understand now.)
<jbailey> jcater: I'm interested in hearing about the call centre.
<jbailey> I Didn't think bayonne did ACD yet.
<jcater> I do not claim to be an expert in telephony, btw
<jcater> not by any means
<jcater> ACD?
<jbailey> Automatic Call Distribution.  Like call queues, and stuff.
<jcater> I'm not sure how much out-of-the-box functionality it can do
<jcater> it's really an architecture
<jcater> imho
<jcater> this is just in conversations with the bayonne guy
<jcater> I don't know what it will do without a little coercing by a knowledgable staff
<jcater> a staff that I do not have :)
<jcater> tnt: I hope I was a little help
<jcater> please don't take anything I've said as authoritative, though
<jcater> :)
<tnt> jcater: You were.
<tnt> jcater: I understand things better now.
<tnt> jcater: GNU Bayonne is just what I was hoping it would be.
<tnt> jcater: Now I need to figure out how to set it up.
<jcater> jbailey: what did you want to know about my callcenter?
<jcater> jbailey: you'd be proud to know that, except for 2 executive's computers, my call-center is completely free :)
<jcater> well, stuff that's actually at the call center
<jcater> they link up with an oracle database here in our Memphis office
<jcater> I'm not quite brave enough to go free database yet, but pretty damn close
<jbailey> Nice!
<jcater> but, we have about 40 workstations
<jcater> all running debian + ltsp + kde
<jbailey> If you can do it with 40, you can do it with 240.
<jbailey> 30's about the breakpoint, I think.
<jbailey> What's ltsp?
<jcater> terminal servers
<jcater> diskless workstations
<jcater> ltsp.org
<jbailey> I'm installing the first Debian GNU/Linux system at my work tommorow for my workstation.
<jbailey> It'll be an adventure.
<jcater> basically a bunch of cheap PCs that remote-boot debian, 
<jcater> start up an X session, 
<jcater> and run all their apps on a souped up debian server
<jcater> remote-X
<jcater> it's really sweet
<jcater> the administration is great
<jbailey> Wow, nice.
<jcater> this is in a small town 90 miles from here
<jbailey> How is it for bandwidth consumption?
<jcater> and when I saw small, I mean small!
<jbailey> You drive 90 miles for work?
<jcater> so we are the nearest tech support
<jcater> this is a remote office
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<jbailey> =)
<jcater> so administration is key
<jcater> hence the reason we switched from redhat to debian
<jbailey> No kiddin'
<jcater> bandwidth
<jbailey> I keep telling people.  "Sure the install sucks, but you only have to do it once..."
<jcater> well, I wouldn't do remote X over 10Mbs
<jcater> we have 2 100Mbs switches
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<jcater> connecting all the computers to a single 3COM 100Mbs NIS on a debian machine
<jbailey> Nice.
<jcater> and you couldn't tell that you aren't sitting at an actual debian session
<jcater> but I tested over 10Mbs
<jcater> the ltsp people say it's fine
<jcater> but I don't recommend it
<jcater> :)
<jbailey> Sort of like VNC.  
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> i've used X over 10Mbps
<ajmitch> it's usable but slow
<jbailey> I've done X over isdn.  I had to do an oracle install.  God that was nasty.
<jcater> kind of
<ajmitch> i'm running 128kbps adsl here, would probably hurt just as much :)
<jcater> yeah, we have a 256K frame relay between here and there
<jcater> (for database connections)
<jcater> sometimes I ssh -X between here and there
<jcater> to test something
<jcater> and that is hell
<jcater> but much less of a hell than a 90 minute drive one-way
<ajmitch> :)
<jcater> for 5 years (ending 3 years ago)
<jcater> all this was done with SCO OpenServer
Action: jbailey pukes.
<jcater> well, let's just say I averages a trip every 7-9 days
<jcater> s/averages/averaged/
<ajmitch> not fun
<jcater> now, I go every 3 months
<jcater> and that's to bring printers back for cleaning
<jcater> :)
<jcater> what's really cool is all the options free software has opened up for us
<jcater> i.e., all the things I can make debian do that
<jcater> was a biotch under SCO
<jcater> e.g., we rsync their entire setup back to Memphis
<jcater> every night
<jcater> over a 256K link
<jcater> (rsync is beautiful)
<ajmitch> yeah, i use it for syncing between uni & home
<ajmitch> it's great stuff
<jcater> plus, if the day ever comes where they outgrow their single server, 
<jcater> I can just build a second and install all the same stuff on it
<jcater> without licensing hell
<jcater> actually, we just ran into that this past spring
<jcater> we have some old SCO apps
<jcater> so we have a single server here in memphis
<jcater> that everyone telnets to
<nickr> SCO OpenSewer
<jcater> well, we only had a limited license on that
<jcater> so once so many people logged in, 
<jcater> no one else could get in
<jcater> and of course, SCO has gone the way of the dinosaur
<jbailey> Did you try ibcs2 or not that brave?
<jcater> yes!
<jcater> I got it running on a low-end debian machine this spring
<jbailey> WOw.
<jcater> and no body noticed the switch
<ajmitch> i hate non-free licensing
<jcater> of course, ibcs had 0 docs
<jcater> and no home page
<nickr> nonfree licensing hates you too
<jcater> so after a year or so of newsgroup searching
<ajmitch> nickr: it probably does :)
<jcater> I finally got it working this past spring
<jcater> err, this spring
<jcater> (it is spring :)
<ajmitch> no, it's autumn :P
<jcater> lol
<jcater> you non-american freak!
<jcater> :)
<jbailey> Hey!
<jcater> j/k
<jbailey> You're outnumbered...
<jcater> I noticed
<ajmitch> Isomer will back me up, i'm sure ;)
<jcater> that it's autumn?
<jcater> I believe you
<ajmitch> yeah, he's one of the few from the southern hemisphere
<ajmitch> this channel is so northen-biased :)
<ajmitch> we need to get more kiwis back here
<jcater> btw, I cringe everytime I hear someone say linux isn't ready for the desktop
<ajmitch> like andrewm :)
<jcater> I say, bullsh&t
<jcater> I have a building full of 40 women who don't have PCs at home
<jcater> I do not train any of them
<jcater> on how to use the KDE desktop
<ajmitch> heh, herding cats...
<jcater> other than a single (click here to start your database app)
<jcater> but I go back in a month
<jcater> and they all have custom backgrounds
<jcater> colors
<jcater> etc
<ajmitch> nice :)
<jcater> and have figured out the 4 virtual desktop thingies
<ajmitch> KDE is a pretty good desktop
<jcater> hell, they even taught me that you could rename the 4 desktops
<jcater> I didn't know that!
<jcater> :)
Action: ajmitch thinks dcop can be useful at times
<ajmitch> yet i still use gnome at home :)
<jcater> so when critics say a linux desktop isn't friendly enough, I say screw you!
<jcater> actually, I don't say a word
<jcater> I just smile
<jcater> and do an apt-get dist-upgrade
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch checks to see if apt-get is finished
<jbailey> I use gnome at home.  I don't like the kde defaults, and I'm too lazy to figure out how to make it work the way I like it.
<ajmitch> must have finished while i was gone :)
<jcater> I use KDE simply so I can be on the same track as my users
<jcater> as I felt KDE made more sense
<jcater> actually, I had a lot of frustrations with GNOME
<ajmitch> i use KDE at uni in the CS lab
<jcater> and KDE has become my desktop of choice
<jcater> but I'm not here to argue for KDE
<jcater> just stating my decision :)
<ajmitch> only part of gnome i use is the panel, i guess
<ajmitch> since chillywilly doesn't seem to be around, we can say good things about KDE :)
<jcater> rofl
<ajmitch> managed to get him to commit some geas scratchings
jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp318863.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting"
--- Wed Apr 17 2002