[00:06] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<dtm> chillywilly_: hi
<ajmitch> i wonder if chillywilly/chillywilly_ is actually around?
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<dtm> ajmitch: one down!  one to go!
<ajmitch> hehe
<dtm> ajmitch: do you have any further thoughts on my url?
<ajmitch> thought is beyond me at the moment
<dtm> ajmitch: ooooohhhh
<dtm> so, what do you _not_ think about it?
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<dtm> does gnue provide an alternative to Zope?  are they considered similar
<dtm> is gnue a generalized web app development platform or just specific to enterprise mgmt
<ajmitch> we should replace webware with gnue :)
<dtm> sounds good, whatever that is.
<ajmitch> gnue isn't really a web app dev framework
<ajmitch> it could be tho, i guess
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<dtm> ajmitch: Ssshhhh... there there.  Just lie still.  Try not to think or type.
<dtm> It'll be aaallllllllriiiiiiight.....
<dtm> Especially not to think.
<ajmitch> aaarhgbbblklkbbbb
Action: ajmitch short-circuits & collapses
Action: dtm rolls ajmitch over and raids his fried circuit board within his soft underbelly for spare parts
Action: dtm plugs some of them into the synapse connectors behind his ears
Action: dtm cocks his head erratically as his system assimilates and acclimates to the reclaimed foreign components and microcode
<dtm> Excellent.
Action: dtm proceeds as planned
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: dtm microwaves more smores
<dtm> lol  that was phuq'tup
Action: ajmitch watches the hidden virus infect & adapt to the new host environment
Action: dtm prepares the morsely snacks, noticing pronounced enhancements .... sprinkling on M&M's faster, stronger, than ever before....
Action: dtm notices green jointed tendrils unexpectedly growing out of his eyes
Action: ajmitch watches the sudden loss of motor function & dtm topple to the floor
Action: dtm jerks back in systematic trauma mode as subsystem after subsystem panics
Action: ajmitch hits the system reset switch for dtm, reloading from rom
Action: Isomer BRS's both of you
Action: dtm 's emergency response routines, running remotely on the kernel inside the backup Gibson, triggers backup power and remotely programs the arm motors for a last resort to destroy the virus
<ajmitch> greetings, Isomer
<ajmitch> what can we do you for? :)
Action: dtm 's only functioning mechanism reaches up and opens the microwave and plunges his head inside
Action: dtm 's Gibson remotely triggers "reheat" mode
Action: nickr docks dtm 50000 points for a Hackers reference.
<ajmitch> lol
<dtm> <<<cue "Dare to Be Stupid" on the house mp3 player, loaded from Gibson's random access memory banks>>>
<dtm> STICK YOUR HEAD IN THE MICROWAVE AND GET YOURSELF A TAN!!  o/~
<dtm> nickr: but it was a classic!
<dtm> :(
<dtm> Isomer: wha'ts BRS?  :)
<dtm> what would i ever do without my Gibson?  :'-(
<dtm> guys, whatever we do, we've _GOT_ to keep ajmitch from thinking right now!
<dtm> it's just _bad_
<ajmitch> yup
Action: nickr fears for the sanity of dtm.
<ajmitch> nickr: uhh, what sanity?
<ajmitch> do you mean what's just been run over out on the road?
<dtm> :(
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<psu> hi
<nickr> pee ess you
<psu> 'tis I
<dtm> mmmm wait a minute
<dtm> ohhh  mmhmm  yep, it's him alright.
<psu>  /whois me
<psu> better than
<nickr> i think its an imposter!
<psu>  /woeis me
<psu> i suppose
Action: psu checks his drivers' license to make sure
<psu> not that it has a photo, so I guess it doesn't help ;-)
<dtm> IT'S A FAKE IMPOSTOR   IT'S REALLY PSU!
<dtm> KILL THE IMPOSTER
<psu> passport, where's my passport?
<dtm> *KILL*
<psu> "Her Brittanic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires..."
<dtm> why do you guys all have to be so freakin' weird in here all the time
Action: nickr sets dtm from 'weird al' to 'terminate'
<dtm> ?
<dtm> psu: is that what your license says?
<nickr> no, passport you damfoo
<dtm> haha
<dtm> YOU SAID "damfoo" AND IT WAS AWESOME.
<nickr> It *sure( was
<psu> ISTR that UK is the only country that "requests *and requires*" assistance for passport holders 
<psu> from foreign govts
<psu> or else we'll send a gunboat ;-)
<nickr> wuh oh
<nickr> I want a UK passport
<nickr> mine only has 'requests', damn you secretary of state!
<nickr> no balls in all of washington!
<psu> i am trying to hold off getting a photo drivers license
<psu> (introduced about 2 years ago IIRC)
<psu> as the govt aren't even trying to pretend 
<nickr> freedom loving bastards
<psu> that it's not intended to become a de facto 
<psu> identity card
<psu> Of course, compulsory identity cards are still on the post-9/11 agenda
<nickr> lovely
<nickr> then comes the tattoo on the arm with your serial number
<psu> nickr: microchip, surely?
<psu> after all, technology is good ;-)
<nickr> yea, rf chip embedded in your skull at birth
<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> hi aj
<nickr> embedded in your brainstem so they can deactivate your voluntary nervous system if you're committing a crim
<ajmitch> no!!!
<ajmitch> i am NOT crazy!
<nickr> ajmitch: there there, the thorizine will kick in shortly
Action: ajmitch readies his shotgun
<psu> shotgun? in NZ? shome mistake, shurely?
<nickr> I think the shotgun would be one of the few guns possible
<nickr> I'd
<nickr> think
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<dtm> reinhard: 
<dtm> hi
<ajmitch> hey reinhard, join the fun!
<ajmitch> psu: guns laws were reasonably relaxed here, until a guy went on a shooting rampage about 12 years ago with an assault rifle
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<ajmitch> seems i scared him off :)
<nickr> yes
<nickr> he is scary
<nickr> er, scared
<ajmitch> muahaha
<ajmitch> wonder if reinhard is actually here?
<nickr> nope
<dtm> are you guys into telephony much?
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<dtm> dres__  hi
Action: reinhard is busy on the phone :(
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<fajun> hello
<dtm> hi
<fajun> i'm testing gfdes, but failed, can you help me
<fajun> "python2.2 Segementation fault" (redhat 7.2), anyone can help?
<dtm> sorry, i've never used gnue!
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<ajmitch> yo
<ajmitch> any poor fool still awake?
<Isomer> er
<Isomer> no
<Isomer> I fell asleep hours ago
<Isomer> sorry ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> i guess it's that time of the evening when the americans are asleep, the europeans are just starting to get up
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> 11:45 here :)
<Isomer> ajmitch: yep :)
<ajmitch> ok, some europeans :)
<ajmitch> reinhard: managed to get chillywilly to commit some scribblings :)
<Isomer> reinhard: yeah, and most europeans I know don't get up until WELL into noon :)
<nickr> me me oh me
<ajmitch> hey nickr
<nickr> I shouldn't be awak though.
<nickr> 6am!
<ajmitch> still early
<nickr> I think I get ready for bed at least.
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> why so soon?
<nickr> cause I gotta get up in 6 hours and I need sleep :)
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> boo
<ajmitch> hey chillywilly
<ajmitch> just reading thru some of the geas stuff you committed
<ajmitch> how's things?
<chillywilly> fine, but I should go back to bed for an hour or so ;)
<ajmitch> hehe, why?
<chillywilly> 5am is too early
<ajmitch> ah
<chillywilly> we usua;;y start work at 7am
<chillywilly> er, usually
<ajmitch> when do you start work today? 7?
<ajmitch> usually == about 1% of the time ;)
<chillywilly> I meet mike at 7am at the park and ride
<chillywilly> all last week
<chillywilly> all this week
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> i reckon we should look at apps like webware to see how they do object caching, etc :)
<chillywilly> ok
<ajmitch> it's sorta bsd-licensed, i think
Action: chillywilly needs to become a 2-tier guru
<ajmitch> so it should be safe to look at
<ajmitch> why would you want to do that?
<chillywilly> anyone use ERDs?
<chillywilly> because it helps witht he low level stuff
<ajmitch> i used ERDs last year
<chillywilly> we have to map our objects to a db if we're doing object-relational
<ajmitch> flatmate is doing an info science paper about database stuff
<chillywilly> cool, I wish I knew them
<ajmitch> so i should be able to find out what you need :)
<ajmitch> the wonders of university
<ajmitch> i'll borrow his textbook & read thru it a few times when i have some freetime (not doing my own study)
<ajmitch> or go to the science library & lookup what we need
<chillywilly> joins confuzzilate me
<ajmitch> hehe, they're fun
Action: Isomer joins chillywilly to the channel wall
<ajmitch> lol
<chillywilly> thanks  dude
<chillywilly> I couldn't stop boucing off of the wall
<chillywilly> it's all good now
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> why does ERD remind me of UML and relationships?
<ajmitch> because it maps directly to it?
<chillywilly> http://www.datamodel.org/ModelSamples/MemberCDM1.jpg
<ajmitch> we had to do ERDs in Oracle Designer last year - and then turn them into an access database! :)
<ajmitch> now why can't we yet do that with GNUe?
<ajmitch> i guess it should come along soon in designer? :)
<ajmitch> or a standalone app?
<ajmitch> basically design ERDs, select the database to dump the stuff into, then generate tables, and make forms
<chillywilly> ERD stuff?
<ajmitch> and reports
<chillywilly> yea, that would be nice
<ajmitch> yeah, a designer-like app for ERD->SQL stuff
<ajmitch> it was what we learnt in 1st-yr :)
<ajmitch> i'd prefer ERD->GCD->SQL, actually :)
<chillywilly> do entities translate into classes of objects?
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> think we can convince jcater to look at some of this?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<ajmitch> perhaps i shoudl try & do some of it then
<ajmitch> reminds me of dia2gcd :)
<ajmitch> think we should finally try & do that 
<chillywilly> why would you want to use ERD instead of UML?
<ajmitch> ERD is a special type of UML modelling, i think
<chillywilly> I don't know, it could something as simple as making our own little symbols...
<ajmitch> yeah
<chillywilly> or you could use ERD and/or UML
<ajmitch> i should try out oracle designer at uni sometime, if i can get access to it
<ajmitch> perhaps
<ajmitch> but an integrated tool would still be nice
<ajmitch> don't ya think?
<chillywilly> yea
<ajmitch> it'd be like what we discussed a few months back, but for GNUe - a nice set of method templates & stuff, etc
<chillywilly> this looks like a nice tutorial
<chillywilly> http://www.utexas.edu/cc/database/datamodeling/index.html
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<btami> hello
<ajmitch> hi
<chillywilly> howdy
<chillywilly> I need to go take a shower, I don't think I am going back to bed
<chillywilly> ;P
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> Methodology
<chillywilly> There are two major methodologies used to create a data model: the Entity-Relationship (ER) approach and the Object Model. This document uses the Entity-Relationship approach.
<chillywilly> I don't think they are the same thing
<ajmitch> oh well, who cares? ;)
<chillywilly> I think designer would support both
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> objets have inheritance
<chillywilly> ERD for 2-yier people
<chillywilly> er, 2-tier
<chillywilly> and UML or something for objects that execute on the app server
<ajmitch> righty
<ajmitch> means that it has to produce GCDs, and put them in the object repository
<chillywilly> welll, not really
<ajmitch> yeah it does
<chillywilly> it could use the schema API
<ajmitch> don't argue with me!!!
<chillywilly> and then go backwards to ODL files
<chillywilly> look at my diagram and read that one section
<ajmitch> which would be better?
<ajmitch> alright
<chillywilly> I don't really want xml definitions so I may just say oh use the schema API ;)
<ajmitch> sure :)
<ajmitch> would make it easier, i guess
<ajmitch> this should be fun to code
<chillywilly> indeed :)
<ajmitch> and psu should have fun doing the logs :)
<chillywilly> ok, back to my original plan
<chillywilly> bbiab
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
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<ajmitch> hi SachaS
<SachaS> hi ajmitch
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Action: ajmitch wonders at the duplicate nickr
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Action: drochaid thinks ajmitch scared nickr off
Nick change: SachaS -> SachaS_away
<ajmitch> perhaps
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:35:02)
<ajmitch> wb chillywilly!!!
<chillywilly> thanks
<ajmitch> oh how we have missed you
<chillywilly> yea right
<chillywilly> dude I blow smoke all day
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> I can spot it form a mile away
<ajmitch> didn't know you smoked
<chillywilly> er, from
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> it's a bad habit
<chillywilly> no dude when we test the fire alarm system
<chillywilly> we blow canned smoke into the detectors
<chillywilly> to set them off
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> fun fun fun
<chillywilly> heheh, what a job eh?
<ajmitch> did you ponder what i had said about the erd designer & stuff?
<chillywilly> sure
<ajmitch> what road doth ye think we should take?
<chillywilly> I wonder if these 2-tier guys even use ERDs
<chillywilly> then probably just start making tables
<chillywilly> no one bothers with design these days
<chillywilly> M$ sure doesn't ;)
<ajmitch> you think there should be a standalone app that makes ERDs & then splats out crap via the schema api?
<ajmitch> or extend designer?
<chillywilly> ERDs would be for 2-tier, imho
<ajmitch> why not n-tier?
<chillywilly> UML and/pr Object symbols for the business objects
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> we can do that too :)
<chillywilly> ERD isn't really for objects, imho
<ajmitch> GNUe shall rule the world!!
<chillywilly> they don't do funcational unti later
<chillywilly> with SQL
<ajmitch> it shall be both functional & usable!
<chillywilly> althought sam thing could be said for ODMG's model
<ajmitch> yeah
<chillywilly> they do data schema with ODL and functional with OQL
<chillywilly> but you can call methods
<ajmitch> maybe i should take an info sci paper to see what crap i need to know :)
<ajmitch> so how we gonna do methods?
<chillywilly> although in 2-tier you can call stored procedures
<chillywilly> very carefully ;)
<ajmitch> eg, if some poor sod has to write methods in Java, how will we let them do that?
<chillywilly> configure the methods server/module to use Java
<chillywilly> I dunno
<ajmitch> blah
<ajmitch> i mean how do we implement it?
<chillywilly> havn't thought about that part yet
<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> actually
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> they would make a request
<ajmitch> long running VM process?
<chillywilly> the methods server would look for the method
<chillywilly> and load whatever it found at run-time
<chillywilly> and execute it
<ajmitch> we should use some of the DotGNU stuff here :)
<chillywilly> what stuff?
<chillywilly> they don't have anything for this
<ajmitch> like when the runtime can run java classes
<chillywilly> I would be more interested in using their web services framework than using code to execute VMs
<ajmitch> and some idiots might want to run C# methods - i don't want to use mono here :)
<ajmitch> yeah
<chillywilly> that's too internal to them, imho
<chillywilly> we can write our own
<chillywilly> no biggie
<ajmitch> we need to organise some meetings to see how DotGNU & GNUe can cooperate in ways other than a common rpc lib
<chillywilly> I'm not too worried about that
<ajmitch> i know
<chillywilly> I;m more worried about getting things figured out for geas v2
<ajmitch> i just want to see the GNU project to be well integrated :)
<chillywilly> because I want to code
<chillywilly> docs lick balls yo
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> yeah, i'd prefer to just get int & code geas
<ajmitch> big problem is knowing what to code
<chillywilly> I should deposit my bonus check one of these days
<ajmitch> damn design!
<chillywilly> DOH
<ajmitch> what is wrong?
<chillywilly> I haven't deposited my check yet
<ajmitch> would be a good idea
<chillywilly> for 2% of the inspection dollars if we make our quota
<ajmitch> how much is it?
<chillywilly> bah, $96
<chillywilly> wooppeeee!
<ajmitch> that buys a fair bit of caffiene :)
<chillywilly> we ha d alittle fun with te service manager
<chillywilly> he explained it one way
<ajmitch> or pizza...
<ajmitch> mmmmm, pizza
<chillywilly> and they figure out the amount another way
<chillywilly> so we were bitching at him
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> he basically told us
<chillywilly> f it was up to him
<chillywilly> he wouldn't give us anything anyway
Nick change: SachaS_away -> SachaS
<chillywilly> he's such a tool
<ajmitch> the little .....
<chillywilly> then he proceeded to tell us how little cares about others
<ajmitch> what'd you do to him?
<chillywilly> basically saidi fuck off
<chillywilly> but in a nice way
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> he's a jag off
<chillywilly> typical PHB
<ajmitch> but a jag off who is still a child of God :)
<chillywilly> ony cares about the $$$
<ajmitch> i struggle to remember that with some people...
<chillywilly> yea, I know
<chillywilly> that is the only thing preventing me from punching him out ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> maybe he needs to realize this
<chillywilly> so he will treat us better
<chillywilly> I prefer not to talk to him anymore
<chillywilly> in fact I'm not going to any meetings anymore either until they give me my raise and buy me some uniforms
<chillywilly> it's an all out boycott
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> but I ordered some uniforms anyway
<ajmitch> how long until you quit & run your business?
<chillywilly> without his knowledge
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> could take a year
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> I just finally decided to go for it after screwing around for a year figuring out what I really want to do
<ajmitch> i'll try & support you with code/moral support if you need it :)
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> ok, gotta finish getting ready
<chillywilly> bbiab
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> back
<chillywilly> btw, for the record I think you relational gurus rock :)
<chillywilly> I wish someone would document the db API in common ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> that looks bad doesn't it
<chillywilly> I am NOT trying to butter anyone up
<chillywilly> honest ;)
<chillywilly> ajmitch: you there?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> was just talking to anth
<ajmitch> asking him about some of this stuff
<ajmitch> the 2 info sci papers he's doing this year are all about data modelling
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I could probably get a few good books
<chillywilly> or something
<ajmitch> so he can provide some useful info for me :)
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<chillywilly> he's not going to hack on GNUe ;)?
<ajmitch> doubt it
<chillywilly> why?
<ajmitch> i'll hack, he can provide clues
<ajmitch> time
<chillywilly> tiiiiiiiimeeee is ooooon myyyy siiiiiide, yes it is
<ajmitch> he often doesn't finish uni until 7pm or so most nights
<chillywilly> ER modeling sounds a lot like UML though
<ajmitch> i've got quite a bit more free time :)
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> brb
<chillywilly> you reading that tutorial?
<chillywilly> ok
<ajmitch> nah, asked anth if he knew :)
<ajmitch> but i am reading that tutorial
<chillywilly> Subtypes entities are used in generalization hierarchies to represent a subset of instances of their parent entity, called the supertype, but which have attributes or relationships that apply only to the subset.
<chillywilly> UML no?
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> could be
<chillywilly> I think I am going to redesign this 2-tier app using an ERD diagram
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> shouldn't be hard
<chillywilly> after I read this thing
<ajmitch> i'll read my textbook stuff on ERDs & UML
<chillywilly> and use forms and stuff
<ajmitch> & borrow some from anth
<ajmitch> ok, cool
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<chillywilly> I wan to live in 2-tier here for a bit
<chillywilly> it should help us write better middleware ;)
<ajmitch> yeah
<chillywilly> does your textbook say how ERDs and UML dias are related?
<ajmitch> what 2-tier app are you redoing?
<ajmitch> dunno, that's what i'll look up :)
<chillywilly> http://sourceforge.net/projects/trioweb/
<ajmitch> i'll do it in the weekend i think
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<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<ajmitch> we're just discussing our favourite topic ;)
<chillywilly> hey, dia does ER diagrams
<chillywilly> funky
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> it does UML too :P
<chillywilly> no doubt
<ajmitch> UML looks far more object-oriented
<chillywilly> tis the only thing I have used it for
<ajmitch> even if jcater dislikes objects stuff ;)
<ajmitch> i don't understand why
<chillywilly> me either but objects can be complicated
<chillywilly> with all those funky patterns
<chillywilly> ooh, circuit components in dia
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<chillywilly> cool, logic gates
<ajmitch> i know :)
Action: ajmitch is doign stuff on that in CS
<chillywilly> ER only has 5 symbols
<chillywilly> shoot I have to leave
<chillywilly> in about 2 minuted
<chillywilly> minutes
<ajmitch> ok bye
<ajmitch> have a good day
<chillywilly> I should change my email for my savannah account
<ajmitch> from FD?
<chillywilly> later....
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I need to get around to purging that email addy
<chillywilly> it's subscribed to too many lists
<ajmitch> i use my LUG address mainly now
<ajmitch> since i can just ssh into the box & change the .forward file :)
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> ok, cya
<ajmitch> bye
<chillywilly> you have agood day too ajmitch
<ajmitch> :)
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Action: reinhard hugs cygwin
<reinhard> it gives them who have to work under windows the feeling of having an operating system
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<dsmith> reinhard: yes!
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<sledge_> hello
<reinhard> hey sledge_
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<sledge_> i have sent away the copyright assignment papers a week ago
<sledge_> what's going on with geas?
<reinhard> not much :(
<reinhard> lack of time on my side
<reinhard> <sigh>
<sledge_> damn
<sledge_> cause i got a problem
<sledge_> my boss wants additional revenue streams (we're very dependent on a single company at the moment)
<sledge_> and he wants to hire a guy who is familiar with navision, a highly proprietary erp "solution"
<sledge_> i would have loved to offer a sound alternative
<reinhard> hmmm
<jcater> I'd like additional revenue streams as well
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> it will take _way_ more time until gnue is a complete ERP system like navision
<sledge_> navision is a framework just like gnue, which means that someone would have had to develop the applications on top anyway (equals gnue packages)
<reinhard> not quite
<reinhard> well i know navision
<sledge_> ah
<reinhard> it _is_ an erp system
<sledge_> but looks quite extensible
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> they have a cool form and resport generator
<reinhard> cool = looks good but isn't free :(
<sledge_> i have just read the company-internal papers on navision, excuse my ignorance :-) anyway - i think that's a good selling point for gnue: instead of extensible erp, it's a framework with "interlinked" applications atop
<sledge_> and my goal is making gnue designer rock (in june, when my final exams are over)
<reinhard> seriously
<sledge_> i think a good designer/ide is one of the most important goals
<reinhard> of all prop ERP systems navision is the one i like most
<reinhard> especially the designer/ide part of it
<reinhard> example:
<sledge_> so i should take a look at it, perhaps they have some ideas
<reinhard> as a user you see a form on the screen
<reinhard> you press Shift-F5 and you are in designer and can change just the form you saw before
<sledge_> is it really important for a user to edit the form?
<reinhard> then you press <forgot which key> and you are back in real application with changes active
<reinhard> sledge_: NO
<reinhard> but it is important for the salesman that wants to sell the program :)
<reinhard> because this looks so sexy in a demo
<sledge_> that's right.
<sledge_> what's so hard about implementing this in gnue?
<reinhard> dunno
<reinhard> i think the hard thing is having the idea
<reinhard> to do it
<sledge_> hm
<sledge_> another thing, is designer already designed in a manner which allows for easy creating of 2-tier as well as 3-tier apps without messing a lot around with the current code?
<sledge_> s/creating/creation/;
<reinhard> the problem is that we don't know by now how the 3-tier apps will look like
<reinhard> i mean how they will be coded
<sledge_> ah
<reinhard> xml, odl, ...
Action: reinhard feels like the rest of the project just waits for him to start with geas
<reinhard> well not when i look at the commit list
<reinhard> but when i see what would depend on geas
<sledge_> indeed, geas is really the core
<sledge_> on which other projects does geas depend?
<reinhard> that's hard to say as geas has zero code at the moment
<reinhard> but in any case it will depend on gnue-common
<sledge_> understandably
<sledge_> what about the comm protocol? waiting for gnurpc?
<reinhard> python and some python modules
<reinhard> i haven't thought much about that
<reinhard> i am a fan of
<reinhard> design top down implement bottom up
<reinhard> and as the protocol is the topmost thing it will be the last thing implemented
<sledge_> that's reasonable
<reinhard> you sure?
Action: reinhard wipes his forehead
<reinhard> ;)
<sledge_> :)
<sledge_> code can be changed, so when it comes to implementation of comm, just use something and let someone else make the needed abstraction :-)
<reinhard> yeah
<reinhard> bbl
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<dneighbo> i get quotes of the day and i found two beauties today in my inbox
<jcater> "You will meet a tall, dark GNUe form?"
<dneighbo> "The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident.  That's where we come in; we're computer professionals.  We cause accidents." --Nathaniel Borenstein
<dneighbo> "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless." -- Thomas A. Edison (and he ought to know)
<dneighbo> and i will 'alter' the last one :)
<dneighbo> "The GNU/Linux community is a society united by delusions about its ancestry and by common hatred of Microsoft" -- Unkown BSD Loyalist
<dneighbo> the original reads
<dneighbo> "A nation is a society united by delusions about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbors" -- W.R. Inge
Action: dneighbo shuts up and wanders off (figured i would dispere some quote goodness here first)
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<Arturas> Hello :)
<Yurik> Arturas: hi
<Arturas> Hi Yurii :)
Action: drochaid pokes dneighbo
Action: dneighbo jumps and shouts 'hey that hurt'
Action: drochaid looks up at the quotes, and thinks dneighbo may need to go for pizza soon ;)
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<Arturas> see you tomorrow :)
<Arturas> bye
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<dtm> hi all
<nickr> hey dtm
<dtm> @#(_
<ajmitch> bleh
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<reinhard> hello
<ajmitch> how's work going?
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<Yurik> gotta go home
<Yurik> bb all
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<reinhard> ajmitch: well
<reinhard> too well
<reinhard> much too well
<ajmitch> ie, no time for gnue? :)
<reinhard> that's the point
<ajmitch> well, chillywilly & i manage to argue about geas in here a bit :)
<ajmitch> we might get some code done sometime :)
<reinhard> cool
<ajmitch> just have to decide what to code
<ajmitch> & how to do it
<jamest> um
<ajmitch> hey jamest
<ajmitch> what's the um for?
<jamest> anyone running cvs forms/reports/designer
<ajmitch> not right now
<jamest> if you have the time please run some test cases thru it
<jamest> i'm breaking things
<ajmitch> have to go to work soon :(
<ajmitch> it's too early
<ajmitch> i should be in bed still
Action: ajmitch mutters
Action: nickr 'cosms
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<ajmitch> fun fun fun
<dtm> ajmitch: are you a sleeeeeeepy boy?
<dtm> dres: hi
<ajmitch> eh?
Action: ajmitch goes to work
<dres> lo dtm
<dtm> ajmitch: buh bye
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<reinhard> night all
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<jamest> l8r
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<dneighbo> dtm: you speak NT
<dneighbo> we wont shoot you though
<dneighbo> only mame you
<jcater> gah
<jcater> he speaks
<dneighbo> budget season sucks
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<jcater> likely story
<jcater> I know, you're avoiding us
<chillywilly> do you blame them?
<chillywilly> I would avoid us too ;)
<dneighbo> jamest called for testing
<dneighbo> any idea what has changed?
<dneighbo> i plan on thursday to do some balls to the walls breakage :)
<dneighbo> of forms (masterdetail) and reports (all yummy goodness)
<jcater> um
<jcater> he's done a LOT of performance cleanup
<jcater> so general testing
<jcater> dneighbo: were you planning on doing a gnumeric or such spreadsheet xslt script for our arsenal?
<chillywilly> sup dudes
<chillywilly> how's it hanging?
<jcater> sup chilidog
<jcater> it's hanging low and to the left
<jcater> how 'bout you?
<chillywilly> straight down
<jcater> dneighbo: that was a general question, not any pressure or anything
<jcater> dneighbo: I know you've been busy
<chillywilly> *pressure*
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> i started a gnumeric.xsl already
<jcater> cool
<dneighbo> basically i formatted out in gnumeric what i thought report should look like and saved it
<dneighbo> and dissected the xml to see
<dneighbo> all i can say is VERBOSE
<dneighbo> friggin VERBOSE
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> that little sample is like 6000 tags in gnumeric xml
<jcater> damn
<jcater> WOW
<dneighbo> the good thing is most of them are 'superflous' standard crap
<dneighbo> so in essence i dont thing it will be tremendously difficult
<dneighbo> btw: m$ excel is same way
<dneighbo> VERY verbose
<jcater> it's also binary
<jcater> how do you plan to do Excel output using XSLT?
<dneighbo> well reinhard tells me its not
<dneighbo> he says its zip file
<jcater> really?
<jcater> excel?
<dneighbo> i couldnt get it to unzip but i was able to save as gnumeric xml
<dneighbo> oh excel
<dneighbo> im special :)
<dneighbo> its a little USED fact
<dneighbo> but excel while it doesnt SAVE to xHTML has full support for it
<dneighbo> i.e. anything the binary format can do the xHTML can
<dneighbo> (or so has been my experience)
<jcater> oh, yeah.. I did know that
<jcater> doh!
<jcater> cool
<chillywilly> shit I am missing star trek
<dneighbo> so i planned on going xml ->xslt-> ms excel xhtml
<dneighbo> generally if i want to watch a program i merely turn on the tv
<dneighbo> but if shitting helps maybe i should try it
<chillywilly> boo
<jcater> well, maybe that's WHY he's missing it
<dneighbo> jcater excellent point
<jcater> of course, I wonder why there's a computer in the bathroom
<dneighbo> and who said chillywilly didnt give a shit
Action: chillywilly slaps dneighbo with a 50lb shanook
<chillywilly> btw, that's a type of salmon for those of you who don't ish the great lakes
<chillywilly> s/ish/fish
<chillywilly> I have no idea if I spelled it correctly though
<chillywilly> sue me ;)
Action: jcater calls up his lawyer
<jcater> "Um, yes, I'd like to charge chillywilly with IRC negligence"
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<chillywilly> I thought it would be assault
<chillywilly> ah well
<jcater> offensive behavior
<jcater> zopectl restart
<chillywilly> hey jcater, you use ER diagrams when you do a 2-tier app?
<jcater> I try not too
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> at least for NCS' stuff
<jcater> we are a 3 person IT team
<jcater> it's a complete waste of time for us
<chillywilly> interesting...
<jcater> actually, imho, unless you are billing a client by the hour
<jcater> it generally is a waste of time :)
<jcater> but others might disagree :)
<chillywilly> so designer will not support ERD?
<chillywilly> for 2-tier designs
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> someone could always add it
<jcater> chillywilly: I'll be honest
<chillywilly> why am I not surprised that you don't bother with them ;P
<jcater> I started Designer to scratch an NCS-related itch
<jcater> I have no intention of being the long-term maintainer of designer
<jcater> to be honest, I don't want that responsibility
<jcater> as that's not my interest
<chillywilly> ok, what is?
<jcater> so I can't speak to the long-term reach of designer
<jcater> I'm only getting it started :)
<jcater> what is what?
<chillywilly> just for curiousity's sake
<chillywilly> hat are your interests
<chillywilly> er, what
<chillywilly> in GNUe
<jcater> reporting and forms
<chillywilly> long-term
<chillywilly> are there any?
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> heading up reporting
<jcater> and helping jamests w/forms
<chillywilly> had to be asked you know ;)
<jcater> I plan to be well-versed in everything
<jcater> but the bigger we get, the more specialized people will be
<jcater> at least imho
<jcater> so I see my "niche" as reporting
<chillywilly> well me too that's why I want to take an existing 2-tier app and get more familiar with the various tools
<chillywilly> I just figured I would like designing with an ER diagram so I am pciking up on that for th eheck of it
<jcater> btw, that was in no saying i think the other aspects of the project are any less worthy
<chillywilly> and was wondering if you db gurus used any ERD tools
<jcater> but you specifically asked about my interests
<jcater> and so I was honest :)
<chillywilly> I would never make such an assumption
<chillywilly> don't you hate it when you just cannot unsubscribe from a list no matter how many time you try?
<chillywilly> times
<jcater> lol
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> this sucks
<chillywilly> there...maybe that will stop it
<drochaid> anyone here well versed in GPL licensing?
<chillywilly> sure, but IANAL
<jcater> somewhat
<jcater> dneighbo is very well versed
<jcater> but like chillywilly, IANAL :)
<drochaid> IANAL? 
Action: drochaid googles
<chillywilly> i am not a lawyer
<drochaid> yep, just found it :)
<drochaid> I was hoping someone could explain the GPLs impact on personal copyright of code ... preferably in words of one sylable or less ;)
<chillywilly> do we have forms screenshots?
<chillywilly> omega is asking about asomething to manage his chruch with
<chillywilly> er, church
<jcater> on our website
<jcater> there's a "screenshots" directory
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> you can also scoure http:/goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue
<jcater> he has several personal screenshots
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<jcater> drochaid: you lost me :o
<drochaid> jcater: you're over there :)
<jcater> oh, found me
<drochaid> cooooool
<jcater> whew
<drochaid> I guess I'm just going to have to read the bloody thing
<jcater> I always get scared when I'm lost
<drochaid> and all it's variants
<drochaid> it can be scary
<drochaid> I get round it by always carrying a handheld gps with a waypoint set for me
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<omega> pong
<drochaid> ping ?
<omega> chillywilly just sent me here from another channel
<jcater> welcome, then
<omega> chillywilly: so the immediate goal would be something like http://home.ccci.org/wolbrink/tntmpd/
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<omega> the problem is that it would be used by a lot of computer-illiterate people, and has to somehow sync contacts and such with things like outlook ;-(
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<drochaid> hmm, that was irritating
<chillywilly> I'll be honest I haven't had much time to play with 2-tier stuff, but I bet jcater can help you since he did the forms designer ;)
<omega> heh
Action: chillywilly kicks dneighbo
Action: drochaid wafts pizza at dneighbo
<chillywilly> hehe
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> that screenshot is a bit complex ;)
<jcater> forms can do most of what I see there
<jcater> it does not do charting yet
<chillywilly> oh yea jcater is a forms guru too ;)
<chillywilly> jack of all trades
<omega> so this app has to run standalone on a users's unconnected machine
<jcater> however, the "layout" wouldn't be as "polished"
<omega> and they're almost guaranteed to be windoze ;-(
<jcater> although personally I think that screen is a bit too busy for the average user :)
<omega> yup
<jcater> um
<jcater> what do you mean by unconnected
<jcater> as in, they may or may not be connected to a database backend?
<chillywilly> no network connection?
<omega> right
<omega> think desktop in the middle of nowhere
<chillywilly> well se support a billion dbs
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> (well not a billion but a whole lot)
<chillywilly> postgres and mysql run on winders right?
<drochaid> postgres doesn't
<drochaid> mysql does 
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~/src/cvs/gnue/common/src/dbdrivers$ ls
<chillywilly> CVS/          _empty/   cxoracle/    informix/   mxodbc/    oracle/      pypgsql/
<chillywilly> __init__.py   _oracle/  db2/         ingres/     mysql/     popy/        sapdb/
<chillywilly> __init__.pyc  _pgsql/   factory.pyc  interbase/  odbc/      postgresql/  sqlrelay/
<chillywilly> _dbsig/       _static/  geas/        msado/      odbc-db2/  psycopg/     sybase/
<chillywilly> take your pick
<drochaid> well, you can get postgres working in cygwin .. so I'm not quite accurate
<jcater> well, I don't really know how you will do 
<jcater> "disconnected databases"
<jcater> I don't really know of any free solutions to that
<chillywilly> the db run on the machine with the client
<drochaid> local replication?
<chillywilly> er, runs
<drochaid> or just no remote db then :)
<chillywilly> couldn't you just do it like that?
<chillywilly> that's what Access does
<chillywilly> most of the time
<jcater> will this be a single machine?
<jcater> or will several machines share data
<jcater> whilest being not connected
<jcater> as if its the former, then chillywilly is right... just run a local database
<jcater> if so, then we would probably work
<jcater> if you are wanting replication, then that's getting a little complex
<jcater> gah!
<jcater> my rides here
<jcater> I must run
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<omega> the data on the missionaries computer would be standalone
<chillywilly> ok
<omega> it doesn't have to be replicated from anywhere else
<chillywilly> you have a broad choice of dbs then
<drochaid> what's the point of having a ride if you're going to run? %-)
<chillywilly> jc will be bakc in liek 5 mins I bet ;)
<omega> what I'd want to do in the long run is replace the BGC's accounting system with something gnueish..
<chillywilly> we have a accounting module designed
<chillywilly> but the app server is being rewritten
<omega> and then when money comes in via BGC, that data is synced with the missionarie's computer when they next ocnnect
<omega> so they can keep track of all their incoming funds
<chillywilly> that's what I am working on with reinhard, neilt, and ajmitch
<omega> the biggest problem we have locally is our membership database
<chillywilly> so you can geta  qwuick 2-tier solution for now
<omega> I just talked with our secretary a few minutes ago...
<chillywilly> brb
<chillywilly> phone
<omega> and the problem is that she learned "Membership Plus" over the last couple yeras
<omega> and will not switch again
<omega> which is really bad, because the system is far from optimal, with the primary problem being that it's a totally closed system
<omega> we cannot link it with any other stuff, like say keeping email addrs in the database and exporting live to a webpage for members to look up others' email addrs
<chillywilly> back
<omega> and the schema is rather screwy anyway
<omega> the family grouping is quite strong
<omega> so if you have two kids in different families that get married, it takes quite a bit of work to massage everything properly
<chillywilly> you will have to coerce them ;)?
<omega> and it has fixed fields and such for everything, so dealing with things like classes and elder groups is a pain
<omega> I tried to make a database for rally and found that it's not really workable 
<omega> problem is that when something didn't work, she wouldn't tell me about it, she'd just go back to using Excel and keeping N^M copies of the data around, all out of sync with each other
<omega> thus wholely defeating the purpose of a central database
<drochaid> Excel? :o
<omega> right
Action: drochaid nods gently to openoffice.org ;)
<omega> yeah, well, we're quite stuck on word, unfortunately
<drochaid> or koffice or whatever the gnome one is called :)
<omega> chiefhighwater uses Word like one might use Quark
<omega> truly scary, esp when you watch him work and see how totally screwed up and awkward it is
<omega> um, what's the bin name for the forms designer?
<chillywilly> did you build it or something?
<omega> yeah
<omega> er, failed though
<chillywilly> gfclient maybe
<omega> n/m
<chillywilly> you need to build common first
<omega> ok
<chillywilly> you cna build from cvs though with our script
<dtm> chillywilly: #(#*
<chillywilly> build and install common that is
<chillywilly> witht he script common is built first
<omega> bah, I don't have python2
<dtm> dneighbo: you said i speak NT.... what's this in regard to? 
<chillywilly> it installs it in you home dir ~/bin/
<dtm> dneighbo: i only speak slander of NT.
<omega> ok, how do I add /usr/local/gnue/lib/python to my path?
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<jamest> will the real derek neighbors please stand up?
<chillywilly> omega: set PYHTONPATH variable, iirc
<chillywilly> er, PYHTHONPATH
<chillywilly> damn
<chillywilly> I can't type it
<jamest> ?
<chillywilly> too add a path for python
<chillywilly> isn't that right?
<dneighbo> im missing a tong of back log
<dneighbo> but re: disconnected databases
<dneighbo> i think this is what i have been calling 'brief case mode'
<jamest> chillywilly: that is the env var
<jamest> dneighbo: you doing forms work tonight?
Action: chillywilly is away: food...
<dneighbo> maybe way late
<dneighbo> otherwise tomorrow
<dneighbo> omega you still here
<dneighbo> i missed your conversation and cant read back log readily
<dneighbo> im curious about what you are doing though
<dneighbo> drochaid you get your GPL question answered?
<dneighbo> dres: copyright and GPL
<dneighbo> GPL is a license that relies oddly enough on copyright
<dneighbo> while its goal is to subvert the chains of copyright it uses copyright law in which to sink its teeth
<dneighbo> i.e. the owner of the copyright determines the licenses and is responsible for enforcing it
<dneighbo> that is the key reason we require assignment from contributors
<dneighbo> as if the FSF didnt have copyright authority
<dneighbo> and we could not hunt down an original author
<dneighbo> we would NOT be able to defend the work in the event of a GPL violation
<dneighbo> hopefully that wasnt complete gibberish
<dneighbo> as to personal rights if you mean in the sense of something like fair use
<dneighbo> basically the distribution clause handles this
<dneighbo> you can modify a GPL program and make copies of it etc never being under the terms of teh GPL so to speak
<dneighbo> until you distribute it
<dtm> dneighbo: Please to be answering to my emails, ok?
<dneighbo> dtm: you speak NT i do not
<dneighbo> it makes it hard for me to respond
<dneighbo> you speak of ACL?
<dtm> dneighbo: what on earth are you talking about?@!
<dneighbo> Access Client Level? or something?
<dneighbo> that is not a term i am familiar with
<dtm> dneighbo: :-o  ACL == access list!
<dneighbo> dtm its a Windows thing
<dtm> dneighbo: what's this NT stuff all about?  I _never_ talk about NT.
<jamest> dneighbo: nope
<dneighbo> i have never heard any security scheme in unix called ACL
<jamest> it's access control lists 
<dtm> dneighbo: ok crack smoker!  ACL is a totally generic industry term
<jamest> linux doesn't do it until recently
<dtm> dneighbo: that's because you're clueless about it :)
<dtm> yeah, where "recnetly" means the last 2 or 3 years
<dneighbo> dtm could quite be
<jamest> yes
<jamest> recently
<dtm> dneighbo: plus i'm not talking about the filesystem at all!
<dneighbo> but if im clueless i dont know why you want my opinion :)
<dtm> dneighbo: because that dealt with about 0.0000001% of the document.
<dneighbo> hmm it seemed to encompass most of your questions at the end
<dneighbo> iirc
<dtm> dneighbo: i dont mean to sound insulting either, just being stupidly blunt.
<dtm> dneighbo: well then ignore it anyway
<dneighbo> dtm its pretty hard to offend me :)
<dtm> dneighbo: ok well still id ont wanna try to offend you ;)
<dtm> dneighbo: so anyway half the doc is about DCL
<jamest> asking derek for input.....that's not  being stupidly blunt, that's just being stupid
<dneighbo> it sounded like (and i could be wrong)
<jamest> :)
<dtm> jamest: hahaha
<jamest> derek opinion == more work for you
<dneighbo> that the real questions were how do i get a common security model
<jamest> usually
<dtm> dneighbo: the brunt of it is having a workflow that flows between phpgw and DCL, and a few DCL competency quesitons thrown in
<dneighbo> but the biggest issue i see is DCL doesnt support ACL/RBAC or anything other than pretty much raw you can do X or you cant
<dneighbo> i.e. there has been some patches sent to mdean for ACL in DCL
<dneighbo> i do not think he has applied them, i dont know where it stands
<dneighbo> i think that is a step WE AT GNUE need 
<dtm> dneighbo: well more important than security is just structuring the organizational hierarchy as commonly as possible between Calendar, DCL, and Addressbook.
<dneighbo> as currently if i have more than one use for DCL
<dneighbo> i have to have a different install of DCL
<dtm> dneighbo: and DCL is really the one-off in the group
<dneighbo> i.e. if i have 5 clients
<dneighbo> i have to ahve 5 dcls
<dtm> dneighbo: bummer
<dneighbo> or be willing to let one see the others data
<dtm> dneighbo: but that's ok
<dneighbo> dtm: main reason i didnt respond
<dtm> dneighbo: yeah and even if htat's not a security issue ,it'sa scalability issu
<dtm> e
<drochaid> heya dneighbo
<dneighbo> is it sounded as if you wanted DCL to adopt phpgw ACL's
<dneighbo> and i think they are well (not what i would do)
<dtm> dneighbo: well that's not the improtant thing
<dneighbo> and i didnt want to say that to their list :)
<dtm> dneighbo: it's organizing the data
<dtm> dneighbo: organizing the content in a common fashion among all apps
<drochaid> ta for the GPL answer ... shall I PM you or just ask the irritating follow up questions here?
<dneighbo> and im not ready to code it in DCL and i dont think mdean is either so i didnt want to say well we plan to do it xyz in DCL
<dneighbo> ask them here
<dtm> dneighbo: ok so aside from that , how about a common hierarchy
<drochaid> okies
<dneighbo> im in bitchx so msging is irrating :)
<drochaid> most of what you said was a good brief into :)
<dneighbo> dtm: i would have to reread to comment on that
<dneighbo> i am some what ignorant of phpgw as i dont use it
<dneighbo> have never really installed it etc
<drochaid> the personal copyright bitty ... this is from a conversation I had with a friend earlier ...
<dtm> dneighbo: ok   well maybe you could do that, and maybe focus on the table at the bottom
<dneighbo> so on integration questions im an arrogant brat and my answer will generally be i dont care too much if it works with phpgw (as thats not my itch) ;)
<dtm> dneighbo: that's fine
<dneighbo> i.e. im not saying its not a good thing to integrate
<dtm> dneighbo: yeah i gotcha
<dneighbo> just i dont have the time to focus on integrating there righ tnow
<dneighbo> the biggest thing (i have no clue if mdean agrees)
<dneighbo> is i really want to long term make dcl get out the web way of thinking
<dneighbo> and have gnue clients
<drochaid> it was referring to the rights of the code writer rather than the community in full ... ie, if the code is written by a single developer and released as GPL, what rights does the creator have as far as removing it from GPL or reissuing under a different license?
<dtm> dneighbo: there's no rational reason to trade those off afaik
<dneighbo> and eventually the web portion would be with the web client of gnue
<dneighbo> and definitely move away from php
<dtm> dneighbo: there's no reason why there should be any difference between a web client and a local binary.
<dtm> dneighbo: witness IBM's sashxp and other such things
<dneighbo> drochaid copyright owner has COMPLETE control
<dtm> dneighbo: it would be interesting if gnue targeted sashxp
<dneighbo> i could choose if i owned ALL copyright to foo_bar
<dneighbo> to license foo_Bar under the GPL
<dneighbo> but then license it to microshaft under the deke license allowing them to use w/o in a capacity completely contradictory to the GPL
<dneighbo> there are already great examples of this
<drochaid> that's great, thanks dneighbo
<dneighbo> in Mozilla, Star Office and other dual/licensed software
<dneighbo> i.e. the copyright holder has all the power
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<drochaid> I assume that of someone had taken the code while gpl'ed and modified it, they would be able to continue using that even if the originator changed the license?
<dneighbo> dtm: i dont see the preoccupation wit sashxb
<jbailey> drochaid: Correct, licenses cannot be retroactively changed.
<dneighbo> drochaid that is correct
<dtm> dneighbo: why not
<drochaid> excellent, thanks :)
<dneighbo> though be VERY cautious
<dneighbo> one of the issues with DMCA iirc
<dneighbo> is they have some clause in there
<dneighbo> that WOULD allow people to retroactively license
<drochaid> DMCA is illegal in Europe
<dneighbo> if proper verbiage is in license
<dtm> dneighbo: you just have to acknowledge that there's probably no good reason at all, to make a nontrivial distinction between web apps and non-distributed binary apps.
<dtm> dneighbo: which is proven by the likes of sashxb
<dneighbo> i could be wrong, but at one time that was a concern
<dneighbo> dtm : um as proven by GNU ENTERPRISE!
<dneighbo> we do NOT distinguish the difference
<dneighbo> and that is my POINT!
<dneighbo> ;)
<dtm> dneighbo: hence a diminishing reason to not use the likes of sashxb for any open project
<dneighbo> i said i want to see DCL done in GNUe Forms
<dneighbo> and using the html client of forms
<dtm> dneighbo: huh?  that's _my_ point.  so why are you talking like you're making a new point?
<drochaid> dneighbo: that's not something that is a concern for me as DMCA is illegal in Europe ... although the RIP act may alter that ... even tho it's also illegal here
<dneighbo> and my point with the fascination of sashxb
<dneighbo> im not making a new point
<dtm> ok
<dneighbo> i was originally saying i dont like php (as its web only)
<dtm> dneighbo: yeah
<dneighbo> i want dcl to be gnue forms based and use the forms html client
<dneighbo> :)
<dtm> that sounds good as long as gnue forms targets all platforms equally including web.
<dtm> does it?  since i know nothing about it/
<dneighbo> <dneighbo> is i really want to long term make dcl get out the web way of
<dneighbo>            thinking
<dneighbo> <dneighbo> and have gnue clients
<dneighbo> dtm: that has always been a goal :)
<dneighbo> there are two web clients in parallel development for gnue
<dneighbo> (though both have stalled recently)
<dtm> dneighbo: ok well that's the only reason i was making a reference or analogy to sashxb because it already does so.
<dneighbo> my point is sashxb is competition and they are a lot weaker in my opinion just backed by a larger entity
<dneighbo> btw: im still a dinosaur i dont believe 'browser clients' are the wave of the future
Action: dneighbo knows how the mainframe folks must have felt during client server, only to laugh as things begin to come full circle
<jamest> lol
<jamest> i love unix
<jamest> grep "^.*\:1[0-9]\{3\}" /etc/passwd  | cut -d : -f 3 | xargs
<jamest> extend that to
<jamest> grep "^.*\:1[0-9]\{3\}" /etc/passwd  | cut -d : -f 3 | xargs pkill -HUP 
<jamest> and I've got an autologoff script to run at night
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i'm going to call the script
<jamest> killAllUsers
<drochaid> now implement that in cron for all users to run at one hourly intervals jamest >:)
<jamest> actually
<jamest> it's going to run nightly
<jamest> as they won't log off
<dneighbo> i thing you shoudl add
<drochaid> awww :(
<drochaid> every hour
<dneighbo>  && mpg123 /usr/local/shar/METALLICA-Kill_Em_All.ogg
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> or get a continuous feed biometric device, and implement that script every 60 secs with a check against the device first :D
<dneighbo> and ahve the soudn card piped to cardwell hall speakers
<dneighbo> i guess you should play that song first
<jamest> this isn't for cardwll
<dneighbo> and upon its end then execute your script
<jamest> it's for local company
<dneighbo> that way they like a 5 minute warnign they are about to die
<jamest> i gave them openoffice 641 as staroffice 5.2 was causing all kinds of problems
<drochaid> jamest: d ?
<jamest> however 6.0 doesn't have the shortcut bar on the left
<jamest> c
<dneighbo> e
<drochaid> :o
<jamest> so they insisted i put 5.2 on there
<jamest> i have
<dneighbo> dtm: btw im not saying sashxb is stupid or non useful
<jamest> now it hangs for several of them nightly
<jamest> this is an ltsp setup so I'm going to force logoffs 
<dtm> dneighbo: mmhmm
<drochaid> 641 is nice ... but d is just that leeetle bit nicer than c
<jamest> i'm holding out for 1.0
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<drochaid> jamest: have you seen the new graphics [splash screens, cd prints and slips, and general marketing] for OOo v1.0 yet?
<drochaid> more to the point, do you care? :)
<jamest> i have not
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<jamest> but I wanna roll 1.0 out immediately
<jamest> so it'd be neat
<drochaid> broswe your way to the marketing section of the whiteboard project files
<drochaid> oh bugger .. most of them aren't up there yet
<jamest> the officepr0n link?
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> bleh
<jamest> drochaid: you associated w/ openoffice?
<drochaid> I've got the link for the designers site, most of them will be used but only some have been approved as it were
<drochaid> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lee.corbin/ooo/index.html
<drochaid> jamest: I'm currently just observer status on the whiteboard project
<drochaid> my main interests on it are currently the marketing and groupware sub sections [although marketing should shortly be a project in its own right :) ]
<drochaid> there's also a really good 4 page marketing leaflet on OOo v1.0 aimed at people using MS Office etc ... explaining how free it is, basic FAQ and overview of the 4 main components
<drochaid> I think it's on the whiteboard files section as a .pdf
<drochaid> and I'm hijacking the channel ... I'll shut up now :)
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<drochaid> ok, that's really irritating me now .. so were you all quiet because I bored you or was I actually cut off some time ago? :)
Action: drochaid is going for the bored, and fell of the chair option
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<drochaid> wb chillywilly
<chillywilly> eh
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<drochaid> it would appear I have found a cure for insomnia
<drochaid> I start talking about openoffice and everyone nods off ....
Action: jbailey snores.
<drochaid> perhaps that makes me somewhat *less* of an asset to the OOo marketing effort :-(
<chillywilly> drochaid: get a grip 
<drochaid> studded or ribbed?
<jbailey> drochaid: Not at all, it's called "dinnertime"
<drochaid> dinnertime? I'm just waiting for my program to finish so I can go to bed :)
<jbailey> I'm just waiting for all the flames from my message to #hurd.
<drochaid> lol
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<drochaid> that must be all the flames in then
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<ajmitch_> hi all
<drochaid> madainn mhath ajmitch_ :)
<drochaid> and since it's 2:35am at the mo ...
<drochaid> mar sin leat ajmitch_ :)
<ajmitch_> hehe
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<drochaid> night all
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<chillywilly> hi ajmitch_
<chillywilly> ol' buddy ol' pal
<chillywilly> :)
Action: chillywilly dances around like a mental patienr
<chillywilly> er, patient
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<SachaS_> hi chilliywilly, ajmitch_
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<jcater> wassup?
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<SachaS> hi jcater
<SachaS> does anyone where i can get a bot ala gnubot for the #openebxml channel?
<jcater> we use eggdrop, iirc
<SachaS> eggdrop. i will search google for it
<SachaS> ta
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<ajmitch> yo all, wassssup?
<nickr> the sky!
<jcater> from new zealand?
<jcater> everything is "up"
Action: nickr snorts
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<dnWork> jcater: guess that is whay australia is the land down under
<dnWork> as everything else is up
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<jcater> yip :)
--- Thu Apr 18 2002