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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by carter.openprojects.net
Nick change: jcater__ -> jcater
<jcater> derek / dneighbo : either of you around?
<jcater> if so, have you heard of Nola?
<jcater> the home page isn't resolving for me
<nickr> multiple personality disorder is common among leaders
<jcater> but here's a recent article: 
<jcater> http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0408.xterminal15.html
<jcater> nickr: leader?
<jcater> oh, that explains his domineering attitude
<ajmitch> heh
<jcater> he thinks he's a leader
<jcater> mwahahahaha
<jcater> j/k
<ajmitch> sssh jcater, don't give it away
<jcater> and I thought it was because of strict toilet training as a child
<nickr> hah, the GNUe shadow government
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I need a good accounting package
<jcater> (free or otherwise)
<nickr> MS Money!
<jcater> eh
<jcater> currently use MS Great Plains
<nickr> uhh
<nickr> hehe
<jcater> something funny?
Action: jcater smacks nickr around a little
Action: ajmitch smacks nickr & jcater around a little
<nickr> ow
<jcater> ah, wise guy eh?
<nickr> nuknuknuk
<jcater> nyuck, nyuck, nyuck
<jcater> sigh
Action: ajmitch makes a note not to run forms in the near future
Action: jcater makes a note not to run or jog in the near future
<jcater> it's storming here
<jcater> argh!
<jcater> anyone know how to get a word count in OpenOffice?
<jcater> short of File | Save as... | Raw Text | wc   ?
<nickr> that'd work
<jcater> aha
<jcater> File | Properties | Statistics
<jcater> incase anyone cared
<nickr> I don't use OOO
<jcater> well, I don't like the emacs word processor
<jcater> ;p
<nickr> emacs isn't a word processor
Action: jcater was being sarcastic
<nickr> abiword takse care of that BS for me if I ever need it
<jcater> weren't you here for the "discussion" w/drochaid re "word processing", "desktop publishing", and "page layout" ?
<jcater> :)
<jcater> ah
<nickr> yea
<jcater> I've lost too many important documents w/abiword
<jcater> I'm afraid to try it again
<nickr> I was a major participant in that discussion until I decided that definitive identifications are impossible and its pointless to argue about them
<jcater> lol
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<jcater> reinhard: morning
<reinhard> morning
<btami> reinhard,jcater: hello
<jcater> hello
<btami> jcater: can I ask you a very little bugfix?
<jcater> I can try
<jcater> I'm insanely busy at the moment
<jcater> so it might be a few hours
<jcater> but I'll listen :)
<btami> ok
<btami> in reports and navigator setup.py 
<btami> afrer commenting out some 
<btami> lines, there is an if without code block
<btami> reports/setup.py line 149
<btami> navigator/setup.py line 76
<jcater> hmm
<btami> --- end of bugreport :)
<jcater> is it breaking on you?
<jcater> as the 
<jcater>   # Verify that PyXML is installed
<jcater>   try:
<jcater>     print "Checking for PyXML....",
<jcater> should be part of the if blocks
<jcater> although it is quite a few lines down :)
<jcater> is it generating an error?
Action: jcater isn't at a computer he can test it at
<btami> yes
<btami> i tried it right now
<jcater> ah
<jcater> the cvs I was looking at is outdated
<jcater> time to do a cvs update :)
<jcater> I see the problem now
<btami> :)
<ajmitch> well well well
<ajmitch> hi all :)
<jcater> ajmitch: howdy
<jcater> again
<ajmitch> yeah, hi
Action: ajmitch checks gnue cvs list
<jcater> btami: ok, a fix was committed
<btami> thanks
<jcater> once again, thanks for the bug reports :)
<btami> i do my best :)
Action: ajmitch wonders what he can work on...
<jcater> ajmitch: I have an 8 page report you can finish for me
<jcater> hence the reason I'm still up at 2:17 :)
<ajmitch> hehehe
<ajmitch> i actually meant gnue coding - just looking at reinhard's appserver stuff
<jcater> ah
<ajmitch> well, there's not much there :)
<jcater> hey, it's a start
<ajmitch> but that's cos chillywilly & i haven't done any yet :)
<jcater> yes
<ajmitch> yeah, i know, reinhard is very busy
<jcater> that's why what's there makes sense
<ajmitch> :P
<jcater> I fear the day chilly gets ahold of it
<ajmitch> now now
<jcater> no, seriously... I fear it's gonna get *really* complex :)
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: jcater didn't necessarily mean that as a bad thing
<ajmitch> you mean like when someone with a CE degree gets hold of it? ;)
<jcater> but, then again, maybe I did :)
<jcater> well, I won't go there
<jcater> CE degree = great
<jcater> CE degree + experience = kickass great
<jcater> but you have to start somewhere :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> poor chilly
Action: ajmitch is doing CS
<jcater> I pick on him too much
<ajmitch> yes, you do
<jcater> well, he started it
<jcater> so, there
<jcater> :D
<ajmitch> anyway, i'm gonna see what i can make of this stuff
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<ra3vat> hi all
<ajmitch> hi
<btami> hi
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<drochaid> tis quiet in here ...
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<drochaid> feasgar math jbailey
<jbailey> Err.. What language is that?
<drochaid> scottish gaelic
<ajmitch> the language of kings ;)
<drochaid> heh, definately :)
<drochaid> tha i fliuch an-diugh :(
<ajmitch> poor drochaid ;)
<drochaid> pog mo thoin ;P
Action: ajmitch wets his lips ;)
Action: drochaid runs
<jbailey> =)
<drochaid> good news story here --> http://nl1.vnunet.com/News/1131114
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<dtm> !#(!*#
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<jan> morning jamest.
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<jamest> hi
<jan> I looked at the GNUE kernel cosine #25 and saw you talking about common RPC abstr. documentation task.
<jan> Is there an need of an RPC-status.txt ?  Do we allready have an GNUE RPC proposal?
<jamest> we have functoinal (limited) code
<jan> :)
<jan> The RPC-status.txt would not only consist of ..corba. "to be implemented". soap.. "to be implemented" ... 
<jan> XMLRPC python server and client are working now.
<jamest> we can always use more docs
<jan> just asking, when is your next deadline? 
<jamest> deadline?
<jamest> for release?
<jamest> we hope to release this week
<jan> deadline of your projects.
<jan> great.
<jamest> a new forms, designer, reports, and common
<reinhard> and appserver
<jan> Version 0.1.2 ?
<reinhard> j/k
<jamest> really?
<jamest> reinhard: drat :)
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<jamest> probably 0.3.0 forms/designer and 0.1.0 reports
<reinhard> jamest: just to place my 2 cents here
<reinhard> i don't think it makes sense to do even/odd in pre 1.0 releases
<jan> reinhard, who you like to have added simple GNURPC support to your first implementation of the appserver?
<jamest> personally, i don't think even odd releases make much sense anymore
<reinhard> jamest: agree
<jamest> that's what cvs is for :)
<jan> No, not corba, just simple XMLRPC...
<reinhard> jan: sorry not sure if i understand your question
<reinhard> is it
<reinhard> who should do it
<reinhard> or
<reinhard> would i like to have it?
<reinhard> jamest: it's actually a matter of quality policy
<reinhard> GNU projects often have a high quality standard
<jan> reinhard: thats the question which i would like to address.
<reinhard> they only really release stable (usable) code
<reinhard> so they don't need even/odd
<reinhard> linux e.g. releases unstable versions
<reinhard> "don't use" kernels
<jan> (quality): because i can hack RPC into this first implementation, but i dunno if it will fit with the overall design
<reinhard> jan: to gnurpc implementation
<reinhard> i don't think the question is whether we want it or nt
<reinhard> not
<reinhard> i think it's more or less a "must have" for an appserver
Action: jan is listening
<reinhard> btw with "first implementation" do you mean the C code or the python code i'm toying now?
Action: jan is correcting his question: should i add it now=today=hack, or wait for the design.
<jan> i mean the toying code.
<reinhard> just to make sure
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<reinhard> how does gnurpc relate with that rpc abstraction that jcater did?
<jan> its the same.
<reinhard> ah oh
<jamest> reinhard: jan cleaned it up and got it working
<rik> hi all. anyone about who has something to do with the web site, by any chance?
<reinhard> jan: then i would say do it (the hack)
<reinhard> the toy code is more or less empty function headers
<jan> ok. 
<rik> it's just that i seems to be unreachable from the UK, and has been for a week.
<reinhard> but it will be a proof of concept if it's possible to write an appserver in python
<reinhard> and maybe it points out a few things we have to regard in the future development process of the appserver
<reinhard> rik: which url?
<jan> reinhard: I think its possible. Its just a matter of speed. :)
<rik> rik@bailey:~% telnet 64.39.200.78 80                              :(
<rik> Trying 64.39.200.78...
<rik> telnet: connect to address 64.39.200.78: Operation timed out
<rik> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
<rik> gnuenterprise.org
<rik> i appears to be a swbell problem
<jamest> um
<jamest> that's our old ip address
<reinhard> jan: yes and we could even do some benchmarks
<rik> 20  vip-flint-hills-internet-1020074.cust-rtr.swbell.net (151.164.173.38)  172.480 ms  176.716 ms  173.741 ms
<jamest> wierd that it's still pulling that one
<rik> traceroute gets there, then stops.
<jamest> it's 64.39.192.253 IIRC
<rik> oh. how long ago did you change?
<reinhard> rm@tigger:~ > host gnuenterprise.org
<reinhard> gnuenterprise.org has address 64.39.200.253
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> months ago
<jamest> I'm getting the .78 resolve now too
<rik> interesting. have you updated your secondaries? I'm using djbdns, and it sems to be reasonably good at resisting poisoning.
<rik> oh. someone restored the dns from a backup tape?
<rik> oh. that's better. killed and restarted dnscache, and it appears to have the correct address. i suspect one of your secondaries has bad info.
<jamest> what ip are you showing now?
<rik> 64.39.200.253
<rik> and browsing thr site happily.
<jan> I hope that adding GNURPC to the "FIRST IMPLEMENTATION" of GEAS 2.0 will help both the appserver and GNURPC because both parts needs each other.
<jamest> thanks
<jamest> i forgot the .200. :)
Action: rik nods
<rik> dtm recommended i looked at this project, because i threatened to write something similar in Python.
<jan> Even if you just wanna use GNURPC and try to forget GEAS, GNURPC needs some kind of object cache or object storage to access non static object per GNURPC. 
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<jan> reinhard: I try to hack it tonight and then lets see.
<reinhard> cool
<reinhard> maybe i'm here for a while tonight
<jamest> rik: we're always looking for help
<rik> jamest: i'm always looking for free time.
<jan> good.  CU then.
<rik> but i'll keep gnue in mind.
<rik> which databases can it use so far?
<jan> now its time for real world stuff:  go to IKEA and buy a shelf....
<jan> l8r
<jamest> we've drivers for almost anything python supports
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<jamest> the most tested are the pstgresql drivers, oracle, db2
<rik> hmmm
<jamest> mysql should work fine as well
<jamest> interbase is reported as working by the person that donated the driver code
<rik> that's what i was going to ask about.
<jamest> interbase?
<rik> well, fireird
<jamest> yes
<jamest> it works 
<rik> firebird, even.. i happen to know the maintainer of kinterbasdb, and that's influenced me a little :)
Action: rik lost several games of snooker to him yesterday :/
<jamest> :)
<jamest> IIRC
<jamest> you had to use minimum of the kinterbasdb RC1 
Action: rik nods
<rik> gnue looks great, from the docs, btw.
<rik> ah. important question. is there a win32 Forms Painter?
<jamest> yes
<rik> good good.
<jamest> our win32 support is a bit odd though
<rik> looks like i may have a use for this that i can get away with then :)
<rik> in what way is it "odd" ?
<jamest> the wx toolkit doesn't seem to pass all UI events back right on win32
<rik> ah. it's wx based...
<jamest> so shift-tab doesn't do the right thing
<rik> hm. is that a known problem?
<jamest> our ui system is driver based so eventually I imagine a better win32 driver will be created based upon some other ui toolkit
<jamest> i saw it mentioned by someone else on the wxpython list without any resolution posted
<rik> hm
<jamest> fwiw my primary forms users are on win32
Action: rik nods
<jamest> so it's a priority for it to work for me
<rik> hmm
<rik> okay. well, i'll be back. i have a metric butt-load of documentation to write before i get to do any programming.
<jamest> :)
<rik> but this does seem like a very worthwhile and good project i'm going to end up using, and if not using, then contributing to.
Action: rik waves
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<dneighbo> fsck im so busy i dont know when im coming and when im going
<dneighbo> im confused on the rpc talk
<ajmitch> oh?
<dneighbo> jan (i dont know if same jan) 
<dneighbo> SCREW IT NOW CAPS LOCK STUCK AGAIN
<dneighbo> I DTON HAVE TIME FOR THIS CRAP
Action: dneighbo is away: I'm busy
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<sledge_> hi there
<dsmith> Hey
<sledge_> jcater?
<jcater> yes?
<sledge_> ah, you're here :)
<sledge_> you wanted that patch, right?
<sledge_> i have it on my work machine, so you get it when i'm at work (sometime this week)
<sledge_> copyright assignment is under the way or has already been received by fsf
<sledge_> i've read some more stuff on ui design
<jcater> yes
<jcater> that'd be great
<jcater> this is the combo-box refresh bug in designer?
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<sledge_> yep
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<sledge_> i'm really despaired that i have my final exams, otherwise i'd hack the night away
<jcater> lol
<sledge_> i was really surprised that i understood the code almost immediately
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<sledge_> "give me a wxwindows doc, a python tutorial and i'll hack gnue" *g*
<siesel> reinhard: RPC support for appserver is working.
<reinhard> siesel: too coool
<sledge_> whaddaya mean, rpc support works?
<siesel> the first implementation of GEAS v.2.0 has python RPC now. 
<sledge_> ah, so it's the intermediate solution instead of waiting for gnurpc?
<jamest> that is gnurpc
<jamest> jan is like jcater...an AI
<jamest> has to be
<reinhard> which means you can even call the empty stubs even remotely, not only locally :)
<sledge_> well ... great :)
<sledge_> didn't have time for a recent checkout, you already begun working on geas2?
<siesel> jamest: It has something to do with backerys and donuts ;)
<siesel> ok, i finally should go shopping...
<sledge_> without me?
<siesel> just an remark, to run it you have to set the PYTHONPATH to get it running, just look at common/src/commdrivers/_test/README
<siesel> sledge: you can join. Just go to swedish furniture shop IKEA near cologne.
<siesel> ok, 've to go. l8r
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<sledge_> cologne is 400km away, pitily. well, i don't care for furniture anyway.
<sledge_> i don't think there's much going on today. i go now, happy hacking
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<reinhard> argh missed him
<dneighbo> SDASDFASDADFGDGKLJLKJ:LKJ;LKJ;LKKJ:LKJ:LKJLK:J:LKJ:LKJK:LJ:LKJ:LKHSFDHHSFHGSF
<dneighbo> ymmy
<dneighbo> reinhard: are you going to LSM?
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<Arturas> Hello :)
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<reinhard> what is LSM
<reinhard> ?
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<dneighbo> lsm.abul.org
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<Arturas> Hi Yurii
<Yurik> Arturas: hi
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<Arturas> bye
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<nickr> I'd just like to state for the record that XP sucks really badly
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<reinhard> hi fred_myers
<reinhard> i'm not sure if i am at LSM
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<neilt> hello all
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<reinhard> night all
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<chillywilly> boo
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<dtm> ;adfsljd
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<dtm> siesel: hi
<dtm> chillywilly: HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMAN
<siesel> hi dtm.
<chillywilly> sup niggie
<chillywilly> sheeeeeit
<dtm> #!@*()
<chillywilly> alksj bfkljhsgefo87t -23uioergb
<chillywilly> 0899S()8furt2g3;jkhvro&^(&^(*&^
<dtm> wikkitikkitavi appears to rock
<dtm> it seems to be my favorite Wiki of all
<dtm> haven't used it yhet
<dtm> doens't work on pgsql afaik
<dtm> wrote to the guy who's porting it
<dtm> apparently there's a php dbi lib
<siesel> night all
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<dtm> chillywilly: what's your status dawg
<dtm> i'm hax0ring phpgroupware
<dtm> entering all my shiznitz
<dtm> organizificationalizing it
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<chillywilly> dtm: umm, I haven't done squat
<chillywilly> I suck
<chillywilly> welcome to my phucked up world
<chillywilly> hi neilt
<dtm> !#(*)
<dtm> chillywilly: yay
<dtm> chillywilly: we glub chew anyhoo
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
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<ajmitch> hi jbailey
<jbailey> Heya mr. Mitch!
<ajmitch> that's mr Mitchell to you :)
<jbailey> Yes, Dear.
<jbailey> ;)
<ajmitch> lol
<neilt> hello
<ajmitch> hi neilt
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:20:18)
<ajmitch> wb chillywilly
<chillywilly> tnx
<chillywilly> I guess...
<neilt> chillywilly: hello
<nickr> what you say!
<chillywilly> I say kill me now
<chillywilly> ask questions later
<ajmitch> why so?
<chillywilly> because it would be fun
<ajmitch> why would you want us to kill you?
<chillywilly> no reason
<chillywilly> just for the pure enjoyment of it
<chillywilly> why does my damn program segfault
<chillywilly> I suck
<chillywilly> c
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<dtm> chillywilly: sounds like you're being harsh
<dtm> for those of us who's ya niggaz, if you're harsh on yourself you're harsh on us  ;)
<ajmitch> yo dtm
<dtm> ajmitch: isn't that right?
<dtm> ajmitch: werd
<ajmitch> yep
<dtm> that's righ.t
<ajmitch> exactement
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<dtm> precisitudinally
<ajmitch> exactement is actually a word, you know
<dtm> amazing!
<dtm> i did not know that.
<ajmitch> but not in english
<chillywilly> liar
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> you made that shit up
<ajmitch> no, it's french
<dtm> is it in ajmitchish?
Action: ajmitch sighs & walks away
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> you take things so seriously
<dtm> BYE AJMITCH.  YOUR WEERD.
<chillywilly> we just playin' witcha
<drochaid_> ajmitch: just smile and say pog mo thoin to one and all ;)
<dtm> ajmitch: yeah, you could do that.
<ajmitch> drochaid_: yeah, but they might actually do it, that scares me
<chillywilly> you gaelic wankers
<chillywilly> lkdjfblshjgefoiuwyo i8YPOihP98['KHJpo*uy60y
<chillywilly> that means piss off
<chillywilly> in chillywillyish
<dtm> heh!
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<ajmitch> heh
<dtm> heh
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> #*(
Action: dtm attempt0r to call mdean
<chillywilly> w00t
[19:35] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dtm> no answer
<dtm> CONFOUND THOSE INFERNAL MACHINES
<dtm> he do be a sucka indeed
<drochaid_> how do you wank in gaelic chillywilly?
Action: ajmitch will bbl (about 12 hours or so :)
<drochaid_> is that different to doing it in english?
<dtm> ajmitch: bye
<dtm> what is gaelic
<chillywilly> drochaid_: I dunno you're the expert
<drochaid_> cya ajmitch ... I'll be back in about 9 hours, after I get some sleep :)
<dtm> culture me!
<chillywilly> scottish gaelic
<chillywilly> and er
<chillywilly> some other one
<drochaid_> dtm: well that depends ... scottish, irish or manx?
<chillywilly> a ancient langauge
<dtm> is that the language they speak in scotland?
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<chillywilly> I could swear they spoke english
<chillywilly> but wtf do I know
<drochaid_> we do
<dtm> it barely sounds like it in the movies!
Action: chillywilly smacks drochaid_ with a 50lb trout
<dtm> it's deeply twisted though
<drochaid_> what? you mean when all the americans act scottish and have shit accents?
<dtm> drochaid_: i dunno!
<chillywilly> ummm, let's not get into a little notionalistic pissing contest
<drochaid_> if it sounds stoopid ... it's probably not a scot
<chillywilly> it's very retarded
<drochaid_> and what was retarted there apart from your comment chillywilly?
<dtm> i'm not saying it sounds stoopid, just literally twisted around.  not in any way pronounced like it's written :)
<drochaid_> have you ever heard an american do a *decent* scottish accent?
<dtm> a challenge to understand
<chillywilly> drochaid_: do I give a rats ass? do I resort to insults?
<chillywilly> I think not
<drochaid_> dtm: wit ye saying mon? I dinnae ken wit ye mean?
<dtm> not to mention the random vocabulary
<dtm> drochaid_: yeah just like that!
<dtm> ;)
<drochaid_> chillywilly: yes, regulary
<chillywilly> provide some proof then'
<drochaid_> dtm: that's broad scots, close to english .. but not quite there ;)
<dtm> even more so than a lot of the Europeans i've heard
<chillywilly> most of the so called insults are just good natured ribbing
<dtm> i'm just saying it's *way* different than here, which is very plain
<dtm> it's straightforward -- no translator required
<drochaid_> uhm .. I don't need a translator
<drochaid_> I don't know where you are either
<chillywilly> hehe, that reminds me of this Benny Hill skit
<dtm> in my limited cultural and moviegoing experience, i've never heard of anyone from those countries misunderstand a plain speaking American.  maybe a texan or Mainer or something :)
<chillywilly> where the 2 scottish guys are trying to explain something to this English interviewer
<dtm> i'm not implying anything; just making inane, literalcommentary
<chillywilly> he cannot undertand them at all
<drochaid_> uhm ... ask for a rubber in a the uk and see what you get
<dtm> drochaid_: heh
<drochaid_> or a drug store [arrested probably] 
<dtm> drochaid_: i found it difficult to even sit in an *irc channel* with people from the uk
<drochaid_> unless you're in holland ;)
<dtm> just because their vocabulary was **utterly** random
<chillywilly> and their accents make it funny as hell and what he thinks they are saying and what they are actually saying is totally screwed up
<dtm> i had to ask several times a day what the hell they were talking about even when they were speaking english
<drochaid_> dtm: there is no country in the world that speaks *plain english* because there is no such thing, only regional variations
<dtm> they were making completely plain comments intending to convey approval or disapproval, and i couldn't understand it
<drochaid_> so of course it will be different whereever you are
<dtm> drochaid_: well yeah most of the US speaks plainly, literally
<drochaid_> but then, spanish and american spanish are also quite different etc
<dtm> just like it's written, with no warping or embellishment
<drochaid_> dtm: but you do!! you alter it ... it's just that you're used to your version of it
<chillywilly> because we don't have time to fuck around
<dtm> i respect things that are litearlly cultural differences in most cases, but in this case it's just literally plain.
<dtm> drochaid_: well if you say so!  :)
<dtm> chillywilly: hahaha
<drochaid_> dtm: you want plain english? it evolved in south eastern scotland aroun the 8th century ad ... you wouldn't understand a word of it if you heard it ... only a very few historians would
<dtm> there's no rolling of the tongue, and no special basic pronunciations that are fundamentally different than most other places
<dtm> drochaid_: heh
<dtm> drochaid_: so what's plain about it exactly
<chillywilly> but you would right drochaid_
<drochaid_> dtm: it's the original ... anything else is a hybrid
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
<chillywilly> speak some 'plain englsih' to us
<chillywilly> er, english
<dtm> original != plain    .... so is it litearlly plain?
<dtm> or is it just the first
<drochaid> chillywilly: I just said I wouldn't understand it :P
<dtm> drochaid: btw thanks for the civil cultural input  :)
<drochaid> dtm: I'm talking about the accepted definition of plain english ... not what you personally choose it to mean
<dtm> drochaid: what i choose it to mean is to pronounce it mostly how it's written
<chillywilly> whatever, a language is only as good ad the people that use it and interpret it
<dtm> and without extra physical and psychological overtones
<drochaid> which is not what it first was
<chillywilly> s/ad/as
<dtm> drochaid: hence why i never said 'original' :)
<drochaid> but I did
<dtm> yeah
<chillywilly> if I claim that 'fuck you' means have a nice day and then everyone else decides that's what it means and starts using it ib that regard then it becomes truth
<drochaid> indeed it does chillywilly
<chillywilly> the true meaning of the terms
<dtm> someday i'll at least learn the _reason_ why these mostly similar dialects
<dtm> except to me
<drochaid> but only in the area you are known and it spreads
<dtm> once i learn the original meaning, i'll stop using the term "fuck you" as a good thing
<chillywilly> well languages evolve with the times
<drochaid> and location
<dtm> like how i say "OS/2 3.0" instead of "Warp" , and i say "MacOS 10" rather than "MacOS X"
<drochaid> and media availablility
<dtm> and i'll do that if i was the only one in the world who did that because obviously people would know what i'm talking about.  sometimes i say it differently to true newbies for expediency.
<dtm> if they have no idea whatsoever
<dtm> like when i submit a tech support request to certain parties
<dtm> corporate parties
Action: chillywilly swinga th trout widely and catches dtm on the nose
<chillywilly> er, swings
<dtm> hahah
<dtm> !@(*)
<drochaid> are they good parties? lots of alcohol?
<chillywilly> *&^*0!@
<dtm> no alcohol at any party i'll ever hold!
<drochaid> really?
Action: chillywilly is drunk on life
<dtm> a lot of the parties i submit tech support requests to are pretty rotten too!  ;>  in ways worse than if they only had socially tolerated toxic beverages.
<dtm> chillywilly: 4 LIFE
<chillywilly> :)
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> chillywilly: you'd need to stop hitting the crack pipe long enough to get drunk ;)
Action: chillywilly hits drochaid with the crack pipe and breaks it good
<dtm> i have more respect for myself and for others who have similar self respect, than to do such things
<drochaid> muahahahaa
<dtm> h0h0
<drochaid> which things dtm?
<chillywilly> poison your body with alcohol
<chillywilly> why do you think you pee so much when you drink it?
<drochaid> ah
<dtm> drochaid: either being a part of some of the entities i submit my tech support requests to in which i have to use the term "MacOS X", or to submit to the socially tolerated toxins
<chillywilly> or in the worst case
<chillywilly> spew all over
<drochaid> nectar of the gods being the other phrase for it I believe
<chillywilly> which is beer
<dtm> drochaid: i'm being somewhat intentionally obtuse here, particularly on the common social language
<chillywilly> mmmm, beeeeet
<chillywilly> s/t/r
<dtm> i used to like beets.
<drochaid> chillywilly: well it is now, orignally it was mead
<dtm> they're totally red, d00d
<dtm> drochaid: yeah that's what dictators used to keep the people down
<dtm> and the poor slobs were only too happy^Wacquiescent to accept
<drochaid> well a barrell or mead is pretty heavy
<dtm> i hear that the Egyptians gave the Hebrews free alcohol
<chillywilly> drochaid: who cares, it's beer now
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> we don't need a stinking history lesson on beer
<drochaid> dtm: alcohol was quite different then tho
<drochaid> chillywilly: I do, can't stand the stuff :)
<dtm> coupled with the fact that it was hard to keep various organic materials fresh, it's a bad situation
<chillywilly> drochaid: cause you're a girly man
<dtm> i hear that they intentionally fermented stuff to preserve it
<dtm> due to lack of refrigeration, etc
<drochaid> ah right, thanks for clearing that up chillywilly
<chillywilly> if you don't have a brewskie in yur hand you might as well being wearing a dress
<dtm> lack of quick preparation processes
<dtm> ok
<dtm> gender bias?  *NOW* we're talking about war.
Action: dtm has virtually zero tolerance :)
<drochaid> uhm
<dtm> hehehe
<chillywilly> that's a joke
<chillywilly> fewls
<dtm> EYE GNO
<drochaid> zero tolerance of?
<dtm> drochaid: of gender bias
<chillywilly> I have zero tolerance of people who have zero tolerance
<chillywilly> mutha fucja
<dtm> chillywilly: ha!
Action: dtm grapples horns with chillywilly
<dtm> !!
[19:59] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<drochaid> as in you do or don't tolerate?
<dtm> do not 
<dtm> or, alternately, donuts.
<drochaid> hey!! don't go there :o
<dtm> gender bias is so insidious and is a basic human habit which infects so close to our intrinsic nature
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<dtm> it's one of the worst human habits ever
<chillywilly> lets well dude I hate to break it to you, but men and women are different
<dtm> it fundamentally perverts our sense of identity and function
<drochaid> just you leave donuts out of this :P
<chillywilly> s/lets//
<dtm> drochaid: DONUTS...GOOOOOOOOOD!!!
<dtm> ROOOWRRRRR
<drochaid> they are the spawn of satan
<drochaid> nothing THAT good can be other than evil
<chillywilly> nah, that scottish people
<chillywilly> that's
<chillywilly> anywho...
<chillywilly> muwahahahaha
<drochaid> chillywilly: well that's what the english always thought
<chillywilly> yea, they're snobs
<drochaid> and basically anyone who ever fought us
<dtm> @*)#
<chillywilly> and we're lazy fat bastards
<nickr> !@#^!@$
<dtm> drochaid: you got fought!?  velly solly.  
<dtm> nickr: @(#*(
<chillywilly> join the club of seterotypical nonsense
<chillywilly> w00t
<drochaid> uh?
<chillywilly> w00t
<dtm> yes yes join the fun!
<nickr> q00t!
<chillywilly> just for thr record I think scotland rocks
<dtm> chillywilly: better not be fewlin'!
<chillywilly> because any place that invents a game as coola s golf has my vote
<dtm> yeah i think that Loch Ness Monster is the *shit*
<chillywilly> that too
<dtm> oh *that's* where golf comes from?!  golf is da schiznet
<chillywilly> I think it originated in scotland
<chillywilly> I am sure to be corrected if I am wrong
<dtm> raise your hand if you believe in Nessie!!
Action: dtm raises
<drochaid> back in a bit, now don't you go chopping anyone in half with my massive claymore while I'm gone .. ok chillywilly? ;P
<dtm> GO, NESSIE!  GO!!
<dtm> drochaid: FRRRREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM!
<drochaid> golf *sort of* originated in scotland
Action: dtm rallies the troops out behind drochaid
<chillywilly> how does it *sort of* originate somwhere?
<chillywilly> either it does or it doesn't
<dtm> i'm sure it evolved
<drochaid> the current form did, although it's thought it evolved from a game brought over by dutch traders
<dtm> it probably started with hitting dried up dead frogs or sheep testicles from one country to another
<chillywilly> lol
<dtm> and so what's really important is who took the first shot
<nickr> )*)#$(!
<dtm> SDjflka;js;d
<chillywilly> rofl
<dtm> lol
<drochaid> dtm: actually ... that's closer to how football was created
<chillywilly> whew
<dtm> drochaid: ah
<chillywilly> I almost wet myself
<dtm> chillywilly: @#*()
<drochaid> thank you for *that* mental image chillywilly
Action: dtm wets chillywilly
<chillywilly> hey@
<dtm> h4r
<chillywilly> :'(
<chillywilly> you buttmunch
<drochaid> just remember .. not so much football as foothead
<drochaid> bbiab
<chillywilly> drochaid: you are some kinds history fucking expert
<chillywilly> kinda
<dtm> !*(!(
<dtm> he's 1337
<chillywilly> oh yea
<chillywilly> 31337 to the max!
<chillywilly> geeze g++ is a memory hog
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<dtm> @!#*)
<dtm> chillywilly: affirmative
<dtm> if you think g++ is a memory hog, you oughtta try compiling some C++ code with it!
Action: drochaid returns
<drochaid> did I mention that should be human head ball?
<dtm> drochaid: what?  isntead of "football"?
<drochaid> that's how it started
<drochaid> like many games, it sortof occured by accident
<drochaid> someone got their head chopped off [no, that bit was intentional] and it rolled towards the crowd where someone started kicking it aroudn
<drochaid> and sorta went from there
<chillywilly> dtm: I am compiling my c++ code with it
<chillywilly> hence why i was bitching about it
<drochaid> chillywilly: I keep telling you, oberon 2 dood!!
<chillywilly> uh, no
<drochaid> aww :(
<chillywilly> logo!
<chillywilly> just ask jamest
<chillywilly> it's out official language ;)
<chillywilly> s/out/our
<chillywilly> we're mad logo h4x0rz
<drochaid> lol
<chillywilly> :P
<drochaid> but wouldn't it be nice to have gnue in a language designed specifically for realtime saftey critical applications?
<drochaid> aimed almost exclusively at the nuclear power industry
<chillywilly> where's the Free compiler?
<chillywilly> or interpreter
<chillywilly> I dunno if oberon2 is compiled or interpreted
<drochaid> or compiles down to c++, then any standards compliant c++ compiler from there
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<chillywilly> well these aren't real-time embedded systems
<chillywilly> it's friggin business applicaiotns
<drochaid> the compilation to c++ stage takes out basic things like c's irritating ability to confuse = with == etc
<chillywilly> er, apps
<drochaid> a lot of business apps are real time tho
<chillywilly> just use c++ period ;)
<chillywilly> why do i need oberon 2?
<drochaid> because it's designed to produce 100% bug free code
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> no such thing
<chillywilly> maybe you want to take a toke off my pipe? ;)
<drochaid> it's way to easy to make a single error in c++ that is syntactically correct and compiles, but completely fuxors the entire app
<chillywilly> logic error occur with any program
<chillywilly> langauge
<chillywilly> language
<drochaid> that's what oberon is designed for ... it checks logic as well as phsical code
<drochaid> it's not just "is this right" it's also "does it fit in with the goal"
<chillywilly> how the hell can a compiler check the logic of your program
<chillywilly> and compile int a sane amount of time
<chillywilly> it must be slower than g++
<drochaid> most logic is really basic, linear computations .. it's not that difficult to check it
<drochaid> it compiles it to c++ remember, once you have the c++ code it's that same speed as any othr c++ compilation
<chillywilly> why not just use python
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> even better
<chillywilly> if you fuck up an exception will be thrown
<drochaid> python was designed for a different task
<chillywilly> you can then recover
<chillywilly> right, for wuick app development
<chillywilly> er, quick
<drochaid> well, that's the difference ... "<chillywilly> if you fuck up an exception will be thrown" ... the point is not to catch and handle the error, but to prevent it int the first place
<chillywilly> you can't make the compiler think for you
<chillywilly> sure you can check some basic thing
<drochaid> that's apparently a major difference in our philosophy then ... I don't really believe in "uick app development", I believe in application engineering
<chillywilly> Java was supposed to help alleviate some problems
<drochaid> and don't tell me what oberon 2 can or can't do unless you check it out first
<chillywilly> I don't think so
<chillywilly> I a believe in proper program design
<drochaid> Java was a screw up
<chillywilly> use an iterative approach
<chillywilly> UML, OOA/D
<chillywilly> I like the process in Carig Larson's book the best
<chillywilly> Applying UML and Patterns
<drochaid> my work still suits SSADM v4.3 best at the mo
<chillywilly> wtf is that?
<drochaid> not that common over there ;)
<drochaid> a UK government Structured Systems Analysis and Design Methodology
<drochaid> matched by Prince for project management
<chillywilly> er, Larman is his name
<drochaid> haven't heard of him
<chillywilly> I like objects
<drochaid> what happened to booch? 
<chillywilly> well i would get you the url
<drochaid> I haven't paid much attention to the object side since uni
<chillywilly> but galeon is hanging
<drochaid> anyways, as it's approaching 3am, I'm off to bed
<drochaid> mar sin leat
<dtm> drochaid: nitey nite
Action: dtm makes a global category in phpgw called 'entrepreneurial' and adds chillywilly to it
<chillywilly> heh
<dtm> and to Friends_of_ACS
<dtm> aslkdf
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<derek> hmmm wonder where jamest and jcater are tonight?
<chillywilly> hiya
<chillywilly> I am here
<nickr> they are together, plotting against us
<chillywilly> doesn't that count for anything?
<nickr> lets kill them before they get a chance to strike
<derek> nickr: hmmmm would that be a 'counterstrike'
Action: derek thinks that sounds like a fun game to play ;)
<nickr> mmm counterstrike..
Action: nickr drools
<nickr> A peice of proprietary software that I am driven to purchase
<nickr> and play until my fingers are raw and bloody
<nickr> I've had rather too much caffiene today.
Action: chillywilly hisses violently
<derek> nickr: how those gnue packages coming along
Action: derek figures its best to ask that while he still has raw bloody fingers :)
<nickr> derek: Oh, I got the CVS and saw the debian/ directory and thought that you didn't need it.
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> yeah and chilly doesnt ever cuss
<chillywilly> hey
<derek> :)
<chillywilly> kiss my fucking ass you little bicth
<chillywilly> fuck you you fucking square
Action: nickr blinks
<chillywilly> derek: I balme crazymike
<chillywilly> er, blame
<chillywilly> because he cusses like a truck driver
<chillywilly> and I have to be with him all day
<chillywilly> at work
<chillywilly> he's a bad influence on me
<chillywilly> I never said I was perfect
<derek> um yeah and um nickr likes to run windows me
<chillywilly> whatever
<chillywilly> if you have some issues with me
<chillywilly> then let's do this
<chillywilly> I'll meet your papa smurf lookin butt outside right now
<nickr> um
<nickr> I'm sorry, I'm messed in the head, I can,t get into your mode of conversation
<chillywilly> uh?
<chillywilly> you want some of this?
<chillywilly> bring it on
<chillywilly> sheeeeit
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<chillywilly> jcater: ah fresh new blood
<jcater> chili dog!
<jcater> wassup
<chillywilly> I am about to go comton on da masta
<jcater> I had chili dogs for dinner last night
<chillywilly> compton
<jcater> common?
<chillywilly> however you spell that
<chillywilly> finna take him outside
<chillywilly> j/k
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> I'z be feelin' a bit crazy
<chillywilly> tonight
<jcater> just make sure he isn't wearing that red compaq t-shirt
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> he's one bad mutha when donning that outfit
<chillywilly> lol
[21:30] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> aw man, you almost made me piss on myself
<chillywilly> that was a good one
<derek> jcater: i hope he goes compton on me, would be much kinder than going common on me :)
<jcater> derek: you know anything about nola?
<derek> hey now i still think it was classic asking where my free ibm loaner machine was, while sporting that red compaq garb
<jcater> that was classic
<jcater> I still tell that story to my geek friends
<derek> nola: wasnt that the fat, girl with greasy hair and pimples that sat behind me in calc?
<derek> i have heard of some nola library stuff i think a LONG while back
Action: chillywilly is going to go common soon ;)
<derek> from Syngr re: my work in debian-jr
<chillywilly> muwahahahaha
<derek> or do you mean nola accounting/
Action: derek vaguely remembers it from gnucash list
<jcater> http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0408.xterminal15.html
<derek> i think im starting to remember these fellows
<jcater> http://nola.noguska.com/main.html
<derek> i think i sent that same linuxworld article to list or to irc before :)
<jcater> ah
<jcater> I'm sure I had "/ignore derek" on
<derek> prolly
<jcater> and your take?
<derek> my main take is that of normal
<derek> if im a prop software vendor and i make software
<derek> and all of a sudden i make it gpl
<derek> its for one of 3 reasons (i like lists)
<derek> 1. its crap people wont pay for, so i figure why not give it away
<derek> 2. i think 'free software sounds cool' and i think it will get me developers i dont have to pay for
<derek> 3. i have some alterior motive to trap someone into my system
<derek> with compiere i think it might be #2 from what i can see (and choice of license they picked)
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> with nola i think its probably more #1, they arent big enough for #3 and they picked GPL so if they are going for #2 at least they wont screw the folks that help :)
<nickr> heh.
<jcater> well
<jcater> a variation on #1
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-04-22-012-26-NW-NT
<jcater> is that it's good, but the market has too many players
<jcater> or only a few big players
<jcater> so it's stuff ppl won't pay for
<jcater> not saying that's the case here
<jcater> but perfectly plausible
<derek> jcater: yes i suppose when i said its crap
<derek> that was relative
<jcater> ok
<chillywilly> I don't think anyone will be sellign many shrink wrapped GNUe stuff
<derek> crap in this case meaning not good enough to stand above the other players in the market
<derek> for whatever reason
<jcater> well
<jcater> I don't like that it requires LAMP
<chillywilly> :P
<derek> isnt that perl?
<chillywilly> php
<jcater> php
<jcater> + mysql
<derek> i didnt investigate as the idea of web based accounting is just horrific to me
<jcater> bleh
<chillywilly> llinux, apache, mysql, php
<jcater> I'm still TRYING to get something together for my accounting department
<jcater> they are willing to go free
<jcater> as long as it works and does what we need
<derek> i was willing to write a replacement (screens) for sql*ledger
<derek> but it was just nasty looking
<jcater> after looking at sql-ledger's code
<jcater> it scared the crap out of me
<derek> yeah
<derek> i agree
<jcater> 5 comments in a huge perl file
<derek> the fact you cant reconcile a ledger scares me :)
<jcater> and they were two word comment
<jcater> s
<derek> jcater: oh that wasnt too bad for me
<jcater> I never got past the code
<derek> i was more afraid of them doing everything in postgres
<derek> i.e. all the stored procs etc
<jcater> so I don't know what functionality they had
<derek> not that its a bad thing in that way 
<derek> but just a lock in
<chillywilly> don't we have an accouting package design?
Action: derek goes to eat real quck
<derek> jcater: this will sound perverse
<jcater> chillywilly: no, I mean a real accounting system
<chillywilly> just no code to imeplement said design
<jcater> I plan to use GNUe in a few years
<derek> but louis' spec is darn good for two tier
<chillywilly> oh...
<jcater> but I need a working system by June
<derek> like within a month someone could probably whip up a decent system
<chillywilly> what about those nutty gnucash people?
<jcater> and I don't plan on coding one
<derek> based on that spec
<jcater> chillywilly: what about htem>
<derek> jcater: nevermind them
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> they gonna work with gnue?
<chillywilly> ever
<jcater> derek: it's just a matter of time :(
<jcater> I'm trying to be realistic
<jcater> as in June
<jcater> we'll make a decision
<jcater> one way or another
<jcater> I take that back re sql-ledger
<jcater> I did actually create some gnue screens
<jcater> but their schema was pure unplanned crap
<jcater> their accounts payable system
<jcater> is a single table
<jcater> called AP
<jcater> no detail tables
<jcater> chillywilly: you were asking about data normalization the other day
<chillywilly> yea?
<jcater> well, if you want an example of what NOT to do
<jcater> check out sql-ledger
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> well this cool thing I read
<chillywilly> talked all about it
<chillywilly> so I got the gist of it now
<chillywilly> ER diagrams are pretty useful, imho
<chillywilly> so is that what you refer to as master-detail? a relation between entities?
<chillywilly> just curious as to how that fits into the terminology that you were using
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> pretty much
<jcater> +well, master-detail is a specific relationship between entities
<jcater> a specialized case that we named "master/detail" -- the one to many
<jcater> incidentally, we only use MD within our tools
<jcater> if I was designing a table
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> I'd refer to it as a "foreign key" / "primary key"
<jcater> or sometimes "detail tables"
<chillywilly> yea, it seems that the stuff that ODMG adds to ODL reflects some relational concepts
<chillywilly> like 'relationships' and cardinality
<chillywilly> jcater: ok
<chillywilly> thanks for the info
<chillywilly> I need to finish reading that tutorial
<chillywilly> I still think it would be cool if designer would let you do ER diagrams to facilitate 2-tier design ;)
<jcater> I'm not opposed to it
<jcater> shoudl I expect your patch tomorrow?
<chillywilly> http://www.utexas.edu/cc/database/datamodeling/index.html
<chillywilly> sure
<chillywilly> i wasn't trying to imply that you had to be the one to do it
<jcater> btw
<jcater> there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that
<chillywilly> just stating it would be cool
<jcater> forms is modular enough to support such a thing
<jcater> without much effort
<chillywilly> I would think not
<chillywilly> cool
<jcater> esp if the E-R data was stored on disk in XML :)
<chillywilly> ooooh
<chillywilly> you are like an XML addict aren't you ;)
<chillywilly> j/k
<jcater> not really
<jcater> but we do have a solid back end :)
<jcater> so why reinvent the wheel
<chillywilly> what parser api is used?
<chillywilly> SAX?
<jcater> SAX2
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I really need to learn me some more about xml
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: chillywilly is behind the times
<chillywilly> you have any book recommendations?
<chillywilly> I was eyeing one up on oreilly.com
<chillywilly> Learning XML
<jcater> um
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> what's there to learn?
<jcater> you have opening tahs
<jcater> and closing tags
<jcater> they must be properly nested
<chillywilly> well I understand the basics but I have no idea how the DOM or tree is built
<jcater> and the opening tags can have attributes
<chillywilly> I know all that
<chillywilly> wtf is XPath and XPointer
<chillywilly> and the DOM for that matter ;)
<chillywilly> I read the xml tutorial on http://www.w3schools.com
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> a while ago
<chillywilly> unfotunately
<jcater> XPointers are pointers to the proper path of XPaths
<jcater> mwahahaha
<jcater> well, DOM is the Document Object Model
<chillywilly> if I don't do anything with the knowledge
<chillywilly> it goes bye bye
<jcater> it's an alternative to SAX
<chillywilly> I know what the acronyms stand for ;)
<jcater> basically it loads the entire XML file as a tree
<jcater> whereas SAX is an event model
<jcater> i.e., you have a method that gets called for every opening tag
<jcater> and one for every closing tag
<jcater> DOM is impractical for any large XML file
<jcater> as it's literally completely loaded into memory and processed
<jcater> whereas with SAX you can use a stream input source
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<jcater> whoop!
chillywilly (~danielb@d2.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> well, if I'm boring you, you could just say so
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> I hate modems
<chillywilly> heheh, no you're helping
<chillywilly> this is why I am glad I am getting cable
<jcater> did you catch what I said
<jcater> re DOM and large files?
<chillywilly> could you start off from the events thing
<chillywilly> lemme see...
<jcater> btw, in essence, in GNue-Common's GParser, we use SAX2 to build our own DOM-like tree
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> I suppose we could have used DOM support directly in this case
<jcater> but we needed some custom functionality
<jcater> plus at the time
<jcater> DOM support was still iffy :)
<jcater> but that would be a logical example of DOM usage
<jcater> the parsing of our report output would be an example of when you would use SAX
<chillywilly> pr 22 22:13:44 <jcater> XPointers are pointers to the proper path of XPaths
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:13:48 <jcater> mwahahaha
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:13:55 <chillywilly> if I don't do anything with the knowledge
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:13:56 <jcater> well, DOM is the Document Object Model
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:02 <chillywilly> it goes bye bye
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:09 <jcater> it's an alternative to SAX
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:12 <chillywilly> I know what the acronyms stand for ;)
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:23 <jcater> basically it loads the entire XML file as a tree
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:33 <jcater> whereas SAX is an event model
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:46 <jcater> i.e., you have a method that gets called for every opening tag
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:49 <jcater> and one for every closing tag
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:14:52 <chillywilly> now I think I read with SAX you have to keep track of state yourself, er where you are in the tree that is
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:15:00 <chillywilly> fuck
<chillywilly> Apr 22 22:15:57 --- Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
<chillywilly> **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Apr 22 22:15:57 2002
<chillywilly> that's all I got
<chillywilly> I typed fuck after my modem disconnected
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> <jcater> i.e., you have a method that gets called for every opening tag
<jcater> <jcater> and one for every closing tag
<jcater> <jcater> DOM is impractical for any large XML file
<jcater> <jcater> as it's literally completely loaded into memory and processed
<jcater> <jcater> whereas with SAX you can use a stream input source
<jcater> um
<jcater> with SAX, you can do whatever you want
<jcater> but you have all the housekeeping to deal with too
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> DOM is an api that will do it all eh
<chillywilly> but it can be slow right because it reads it all on
<jcater> but if the XML file will be of any not-so-small size
<chillywilly> er, in
<jcater> you wouldn't want to use it
<chillywilly> yea
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<jcater> so for us (although we didn't) the only logical use for DOM
<jcater> would be in reading in GFD or GRD definitions
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<jcater> the logical use for SAX would be for processing the potentially large report output
<chillywilly> mmmhmmm
<jcater> there's also a performance penalty for DOM
<jcater> which is another good reason we stuck with SAX
<jcater> as with SAX, you traverse each element once
<jcater> but with DOM, the underlying code traverses the XML once
<jcater> then if you need to do anything with it
<jcater> you'd have to traverse the tree a secodn time
<jcater> s/secodn/second
<chillywilly> ick
<chillywilly> is it binary though?
<jcater> what?
<jcater> the underlying parser?
<chillywilly> or do you get O(n)
<chillywilly> binary search
<jcater> um
<jcater> if all you're doing is searching an ordered tree
<chillywilly> and/ir traversal
<jcater> sure
<chillywilly> I suppose not
<jcater> but if you have to look at each node
<jcater> you still have O(n)
<chillywilly> which blows
<jcater> btw, a lot of the DOM parsers are implemented using a SAX backend
<jcater> :)
<jcater> python's being one example
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> I don't see us changing our GParser code
<jcater> but that is a good example of a place where it might make sense
<chillywilly> the parser looks very short
<chillywilly> which is cool
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> cause it's a lot of shit to read
<chillywilly> er, comprehend
<chillywilly> there is this book about python and xml
<chillywilly> I saw on oreilly,com
<jcater> I don't own any python or xml books
<jcater> so I can't recommend any
<chillywilly> I own the Pyhton Essential Reference
<chillywilly> because neilt mailed it to me
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> cool
Action: derek is away: Reloading Crack Pipe
Action: derek is back (gone 00:00:03)
<derek> oops
<chillywilly> you betta share
<jcater> mmmmm
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
<jcater> nothing better than an after-dinner crack pipe with the family
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:00:02)
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> hell yea
<jcater> wow
<jcater> just downloaded and untarred nola
<jcater> the followiung files were in their tar file
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/ARIAL.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/ARIALBD.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/ARIBLK.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/BARCODE39.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/COUR.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/GARA.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/I2OF5.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/I2OF5NT.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/TAHOMA.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/TIMES.TTF
<jcater> nola/utilities/fonts/VERDANA.TTF
<jcater> um
<jcater> isn't that like not a good idea?
<jcater> holy crap
<jcater> derek: they include the USPS's City/State output
<jcater> in their tarball
<jcater> which includes zipcode, state, city, longitude, lattitude
<jcater> if it didn't have the last two, you could argue that this was some user's collection
<jcater> but those 5 fields constitute the stuff I have to buy quarterly
<derek> ?
<jcater> 00719,PR,Naranjito,18.181000,-66.14400
<jcater> 00720,PR,Orocovis,18.134400,-66.23200
<jcater> 00721,PR,Rio Grande,18.225600,-65.49500
<jcater> 00723,PR,Patillas,18.003000,-66.00500
<jcater> 00724,PR,Penuelas,18.004000,-66.21000
<derek> ah
<jcater> um
<jcater> they are pushing their luck
<derek> possibly
<jcater> copyrighted MS fonts
<jcater> city_state dump
<derek> fonts yes they are bad bad bad bad
<derek> USPS what does the license read
<derek> i think the data might be giveable to others
<derek> just not their 'programs'
<jcater> um
<jcater> we don't buy any programs
<jcater> and if we intended to share the product
<jcater> we had to pay a higher licensing fee
<derek> ah
<jcater> (like based on the number of ppl using it)
<derek> maybe they paid the higher license fee
<jcater> I'm not entirely sure why
<derek> AND got  approval from microsoft to use those ponts as a distributor
<derek> right after they put SAP out of business in the business accounting realm
<jcater> rofl
<derek> hey it could happen
<jcater> damn
<jcater> their schema consists of over 100 tables
<derek> damn?
<derek> that might be a good thing
<jcater> much more realistic than sql-ledger
<jcater> although still quite a few :)
<derek> better than 3 big ones
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<dneighbo> jcater: what was the resove on sequences in gnue/
<dneighbo> for mysql
<dneighbo> the guy from my user group was wanting to know
<chillywilly> resolve?
<dneighbo> i cross posted to our list and never heard back
<dneighbo> yip resolve :)
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> i know we had a hack in postgres for a trigger call
<dneighbo> but wondered if it worked for mysql as well
<jcater> use a trigger to populate the field
<jcater> that's not a hack :)
<jcater> I think mysql supports it
<dneighbo> correct not a hack
<dneighbo> i didnt mean it like that
<dneighbo> well i did kind of :)
<dneighbo> hack = clever work around
<jcater> btw
<dneighbo> you have mysql there where you could test?
<jcater> have him use our new and improved pre-insert triggers :)
<jcater> nope :(
<jcater> I am an MS and My free house
<chillywilly> ajmitch does
<jcater> s/am/have
Action: dneighbo has not gotten it to work on postgres much less mysql :(
<chillywilly> he runs both postgres and mysql
<chillywilly> I volunteer him to do it
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> wow
<jcater> this nola might be exactly what I need
<jcater> well
<dneighbo> uh oh
<jcater> as a basis
<jcater> I still detest a web-based accounting package
<chillywilly> whew
<dneighbo> actually if its good let me know
<dneighbo> i will make screens :)
<jcater> well
<jcater> it has a well laid out schema
<jcater> which is a helluva start
<jcater> as I refuse to build off of something that doesn't
<jcater> (like sql-ledger :)
<chillywilly> tell me how well you love sql-ledger?
<chillywilly> do you love it like it's your very own child
<dneighbo> for the record (especially the KC record)
<dneighbo> i dont have anything personal against sql-ledger and i have told many people to investigate it
<dneighbo> merely on a very QUICK glance in going to build screens for it
<jcater> also for the record: I am not evaluating the quality/usefulness of these packages
<jcater> I am evaluating the quality/usefulness of these packages FOR NCS
<dneighbo> it violated many of the things that I view as no no's
<dneighbo> which is my opinion, if it works and works well for people 
<dneighbo> great :)
<jcater> so really these discussions are off-topic :)
<dneighbo> just dont want it to seem like we are in here 'bagging' on sql-ledger as currently what they ahve kicks our butt :)
<chillywilly> and for the record: I am not really an asshole I just some off that way ;)
<dneighbo> but these are things to remember when someone says
<dneighbo> 'why gnue, why not XXXX'
<dneighbo> and we can point out such things if they still exist
<dneighbo> ;)
<jcater> also, I'm not looking for a schema to rip off
<jcater> HONESTLY!
<jcater> I swear!
<jcater> oh, come on
<jcater> don't you believe me>
<jcater> ?
<dneighbo> oh, i am
<chillywilly> design your own
<chillywilly> you wuss
<dneighbo> i just havent one suitable for heisting yet
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: chillywilly cries and runs home to python....please please save me form the big bad c++ that is kicking my arse!!!
<jcater> also, to the sql-ledger dudes: 
<jcater> if you are reading this and you are really large dudes
<jcater> please don't come to Wisconsin and kick my ass
<chillywilly> you mean Tennessee
<jcater> haha, funny joke
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<jcater> no, I mean Wisconsin
<chillywilly> that;s where you REALLY don't want them going
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<chillywilly> plz sql-ledger dudes do not go to Tennessee
<dneighbo> Get your free SAPDB cd today : http://www.sapdb.org/sap_db_cd.htm
<chillywilly> especially to NCS Mags
<chillywilly> and plz plz plz
<chillywilly> do not ask for VP of IT
<jcater> it's VP/MIS
<jcater> not VP of IT
<chillywilly> whatever
<jcater> even though I requested the latter :)
<chillywilly> so you're like VP of the whoel shebang?
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> you will get no love from me
<chillywilly> mister
<jcater> I work with marketing, sales, customer service... you name it
<chillywilly> you're "the man"
<jcater> damn straight
<jcater> and don't you forget it
<chillywilly> fuck the man
<chillywilly> that's what I say
<jcater> that's what I tell the cute secretaries
<jcater> but they don't listen
Action: jcater /clears that one
<chillywilly> fuck them up their stupid asses
<chillywilly> dude I should like marry that movie
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> I need a life
<jcater> ja
<jcater> derek: you still here?
<chillywilly> thanks jc
<jcater> np
<chillywilly> can always count in the man to give you the shaft
<chillywilly> s/in/on
<jcater> please don't count in me
<jcater> it's uncomfortable
<chillywilly> PHBs don't get to give orders around these parts ;)
<chillywilly> we're Free
<jcater> as in speech, not in beer
<jcater> so back to work!
<chillywilly> ok, this is bad
<chillywilly> I hate doign memory management
<chillywilly> bring ont he garbage colleciton!
<jcater> "Does memory management keep you up at night?"
<chillywilly> heheh, yea
<jcater> "Do virtual classes give you virtual nausea?"
<jcater> "Then Python is right for you!"
<chillywilly> python is virtual by default
<chillywilly> silly
<jcater> phlllt
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> s/lll/fff ?
<jcater> whatever
<jcater> derek?
<chillywilly> sheesh
<chillywilly> I just want to make sure I undertand you
<chillywilly> not making fun
<chillywilly> ol' grumpy
<chillywilly> what crawled up your butt?
Action: chillywilly stramgles jcater with a mosue cord
<jcater> damn, dude
<chillywilly> lol
Action: jcater dcc's chillywilly Mavis Beacon
<chillywilly> my typing sucks!!!!
<chillywilly> w0000
<chillywilly> who is dat?
<dneighbo> im here im here
<jcater> for your perusing pleasure: 
<chillywilly> don't you know I'm uncultured
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/nola/database.sql
Action: dneighbo apologizes i was off watching jay and silent bob ;)
<dneighbo> j/k
<jcater> I'm not in love w/their schema
<chillywilly> I ahve a wiping problem
<jcater> but it appears to be a step in the right direction
<jcater> compared to some stuff I've seen
<chillywilly> I put one of those squares on my brown eye
<chillywilly> and bam!
<chillywilly> no shit stains in the undies
<chillywilly> snoogans
Action: jcater was saving you the effort of downloading and untarring the files
<dneighbo> yes its ok
<dneighbo> looks like a lot of it is for html
<chillywilly> doesn't anyone love me anymore?
<dneighbo> i.e. the much of the 'gen' stuff appears to be how to tell display to look
<jcater> I skipped the menu* crap
<dneighbo> well i would say they are NOT accountants
<dneighbo> create table glbudgets (
<dneighbo>      id double not null unique auto_increment,
<dneighbo>      glaccountid double not null,
<dneighbo>      companyid double not null,
<dneighbo>      budgetyear int not null,
<dneighbo>      jan decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      feb decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      mar decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      apr decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      may decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      jun decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      jul decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      aug decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      sep decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      oct decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      nov decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      decm decimal(14,2) not null default 0,
<dneighbo>      lastchangedate timestamp,
<dneighbo>      lastchangeuserid double not null,
<dneighbo>      primary key(id), key(glaccountid), key(companyid), key(budgetyear));
<dneighbo> i would say its probably a REALLY bad idea to have 'months' in a table
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> I was just noticing that
<dneighbo> accounting is done by periods :)
<dneighbo> and you tie periods to months
<jcater> but in other places, they indicate the starting period for a company
<chillywilly> that should reference another table wioth months in it
<chillywilly> right?
<jcater> chillywilly: I would
<dneighbo> jcater: im not over criticizing this really
<chillywilly> hah
Action: jcater is trying to determine if this is a possibility for me
<dneighbo> what they have done will 'work' (as long is they let you determine what month is starting month)
<chillywilly> that's what you always say before you criticize something
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> but its much more correct (imho) to deal with periods
<jcater> dneighbo: that' espcecially true for us
<dneighbo> then tie periods to months/quarters/years etc
<jcater> our fiscal year is July - June
<dneighbo> jcater: how funny so is mine :)
<jcater> hence the reason I need a solution by June
<jcater> because there's no way the accounting dept will change software mid-year
<dneighbo> what the hell you using for budgeting then?
<chillywilly> why do fiscal months end on liek the 21 or 22?
<chillywilly> I don't get it
<jcater> dneighbo: don't go there
<dneighbo> i.e. i assume by next month they will start the budgeting procedure
<jcater> dneighbo: they are soo ass-backwards
<jcater> they'll have budgeting done by September
<dneighbo> jcater: never ever under estimate things
<dneighbo> as you are talking to a guy that
<dneighbo> a. was forced to reconcile a 2.2 billion dollar budget done in EXCEL!
<chillywilly> eeek
<dneighbo> b. is going to produce a budget that legally is due to be done by July 1, but wont be adopted until July 28 because the state is 220 million in the hole and looking to dump on us ;)
<dneighbo> jcater: im curious your opinion on naming a field somethign like
Action: chillywilly is glad he's a poor dumb coder
<dneighbo> fiscalbeginmonth
<dneighbo> vs say
<dneighbo> fiscal_begin_month
<jcater> in sql
<chillywilly> the latter is gnuish
<jcater> I always prefer the latter
<jcater> as humpback notation isn't consistent 
<jcater> (some db's are case sensitive, some are not)
<chillywilly> this_is_a _function_according_to_gnu_coding_standards
<dneighbo> yeah
<jcater> in python I do thisStyleNotation
<chillywilly> or any OO language
<dneighbo> ok cool
<dneighbo> jcater: i am 100% same
<chillywilly> thread->execHandler()
<dneighbo> in code i do camel case
<jcater> dneighbo: am I right in saying that you really shouldn't tie periods to months anyway
<dneighbo> i.e. FiscalBeginMonth
<jcater> but should have a periods table
<jcater> with the begin and end date for that period
<jcater> as not everyone uses month-based periods
<jcater> or am I on crack
<dneighbo> but in tables i go old school with _'s
<dneighbo> jcater: that is my not so professional opinion :)
<chillywilly> lock->enterMutex();
<chillywilly> wooo
<dneighbo> as legally whom says you have to do monthly accounting :)
<chillywilly> lock->leaveMutex();
<jcater> well, I'm serious
Action: chillywilly is now thread-safe
<dneighbo> jcater: im serious too
<jcater> and let's not think American-centric
<dneighbo> for DFC
<dneighbo> we cut our paychecks ANNUALLY
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> and only cashed checks maybe once a quarter
<jcater> well, bedroom door is locking
<jcater> so I better go
<dneighbo> so why bother doing monthly closes?
<jcater> nite all
<jcater> dneighbo: good example
<dneighbo> night
jcater (~jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "nite"
<chillywilly> ooh we should all just use
<chillywilly> Windows Enterprise Support Database Services
<chillywilly> geeze
<chillywilly> she locks the door on him eh?
<chillywilly> that used to happen to me
<chillywilly> then I moved out
<chillywilly> ;)
chillywilly (~danielb@d2.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: "Philosophers and plow men, each must know his part, to sow a new mentality closer to the heart..."
Maniac (~User@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
--- Tue Apr 23 2002