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Action: ajmitch sees ppl talking aboot gnome2 packages
<ajmitch> they conflict with gnome1 packages :(
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<dtm> does anyone here have os/2 installation media?  which version?
<nickr> hah
<nickr> haha
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<sledge_> g'morning
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<lupo_> hi there
<ra3vat> lupo_: hello
<lupo_> hi :)
<lupo_> while the US is asleep, Europe and Asia are already busy :)
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<Kristof> Hi, is there anyone awake?
<Kristof> :o)
<lupo_> yep :)
<ra3vat> sure :)
<Kristof> Hi Lupo
<lupo_> anyone of you gnue dcl access?
<Kristof> I was wondering if there's a open source ERP/CRM/SCM package on Linux
<lupo_> yes, ours, but it's not quite finished :/
<Kristof> :o)
<Kristof> where can I find it?
<lupo_> gnue.og
<ra3vat> lupo_: i have access
<lupo_> gnue.org i mean
<lupo_> ra3vat: i have sent two patches to info at gnue.org, can you see them?
<Kristof> thanx :o)
<Kristof> I'll have a look
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<ra3vat> lupo_: for most of the things that come to dcl  i have email notification but have not seen yours
<ra3vat> lupo_: and i'm not on info at gnue.org
<lupo_> hm
<lupo_> let's hope jcater picks them up and applies them
<ra3vat> lupo_: i can ask someone later today if you want
<lupo_> that would be nice
<ra3vat> do i need some info about who, when and what? :)
<lupo_> no, everything in the mails :)
<lupo_> i squashed one serious bug and one ui annoyance
<lupo_> in designer
<ra3vat> ok
<lupo_> oh, just found another bug in forms
<lupo_> fixed! i love it ...
<ra3vat> :)
<lupo_> have there been any discussions on a "live gnue meeting"
<dtm> any os/2 users here (past or present)?
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<lupo_> i had os/2 warp for some days on my machine :)
<lupo_> then i switched to gnu/linux *g*
<dtm> lupo_: do you know how to rewrite the mbr?  i installed os/2 3.0 and it's still trying to boot 'grub'.
<dtm> t3rmin4t0r: hi
<t3rmin4t0r> hi dtm
<dtm> lupo_: it wont even boot to the Boot Manager
Action: t3rmin4t0r just online for the portable.net weekly huddle
<lupo_> dtm: i think that it works like on old dos, fdisk /mbr
<dtm> lupo_: nope
<lupo_> hm
<dtm> maybe i need to literally boot a dos disk and do 'fdisk /mbr'
<lupo_> that may work
<dtm> i'm reading that i can simply zero it out with 'dd'
<dtm> and then reinstall os/2
<dtm> i guess.
<lupo_> zero out the mbr???
<dtm> yeah
<t3rmin4t0r> that may have fine results as long as you have a grub boot disk :)
<dtm> coz os/2 is stupid and tries to get boot info from the preexisting mbr.  so if it sees any it'll use that, or else it'll write its own.
<lupo_> i go now, bye
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<ajmitch> well all
<sledge_> hi there
<ajmitch> hello
<sledge_> what time is it in the us now?
<ajmitch> wouldn't know ;)
<sledge_> i propose to abolish time zones
<sledge_> il18n
<sledge_> how complicated is a python 2.x install on an old caldera 2.4 with gcc <= 2.7.2?
<chillywilly> dunno
<sledge_> i'm already on #python for that :)
<chillywilly> good :)
<sledge_> the guys on #python don't like me
<chillywilly> why?
<chillywilly> I would day just install debian GNU/Linux and your life will be easier ;)
<chillywilly> s/day/say
<sledge_> traitor! :)
<chillywilly> how is that being a traitor?
<chillywilly> using Caldera is probably more treacherous
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> they're noe exactly Free Software people and their nice per-seat licensing of GNU/Linux work stations is sickening
<chillywilly> not to mention Ransome Love is a tool
<sledge_> i mean, "the people on #python don't like me", you said "good!", and i considered that a funny offense, so i replied "traitor! :)"
<chillywilly> no, I said good that you were getting help
<chillywilly> [08:46:46] <sledge_> i'm already on #python for that :)
<chillywilly> [08:50:49] <chillywilly> good :)
<chillywilly> I wouldn't be that mean
<sledge_> there were a few net splits in the last minutes, perhaps you didn't receive my "they don't like me" message?
<chillywilly> I really need to write that CodeRed/Sircam script for my apache logs
<sledge_> he
<chillywilly> I did but I saw it as after what you said
<chillywilly> about getting help
<chillywilly> 08:46:46] <sledge_> i'm already on #python for that :)
<chillywilly> [08:50:49] <chillywilly> good :)
<chillywilly> [08:52:37] <sledge_> the guys on #python don't like me
<chillywilly> [08:53:14] <chillywilly> why?
<chillywilly> [08:53:53] <chillywilly> I would day just install debian GNU/Linux and your life will be easier ;)
<chillywilly> see?
<sledge_> okay, looks quite different on my screen :-/
<chillywilly> well at any rate I don't think it is cool that they are giving you a hard time
<sledge_> of course i way prefer debian over caldera, ransom love is an idiot who hates the gpl 
<sledge_> and concerning the offensiveness of the python dudes, i just had a misunderstanding *grrr*
<chillywilly> ok
<sledge_> but i still have an old caldera 2.4 on my p166 and it's my only machine at home, so i can't install anything else without getting in trouble with all my data
<chillywilly> oh
<sledge_> i've installed it two years ago, when i thought that caldera was a cool company and mr. love didn't behave like an idiot
<chillywilly> uhuh
<chillywilly> I understand
<chillywilly> I'm sorry were just Debian-biased here
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> we have installed debian on three ppc boxes and two ia32 boxes at work :)
<sledge_> no other distribution installed at all, the suse package is just a dust-catcher
<sledge_> so i'm biased too :)
<sledge_> i have mandrake on my laptop, because i gave it a try and everything worked, so i didn't see a reason to install debian.
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> I have Debian on mine
<chillywilly> well I have to mow the lawn
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> sorry for the personal question, but how come that you have a typically german name?
<sledge_> :)
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> because my grandfather was German
<chillywilly> and I am of German descent
<chillywilly> typically the American mutt
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> :)
<chillywilly> but I have lots of German in me
<chillywilly> ok, I'll bbl
<sledge_> have fun
Action: chillywilly is away: mowing the lawn
<jbailey> I read that as 'moving the lawn' first..
<sledge_> moving the LAN
<sledge_> hi jbailey :)
<jbailey> Heya sledge.
<sledge_> at the moment, i'm trying to install a recent python and wxgtk on my home machine, so that i can hack gnue at home :)
<sledge_> are you on gnue dcl (info@gnue.org notifications)
<sledge_> damnit, my sister called, have to go
<sledge_> ttfn
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<jcater> derek / dneighbo : either of you here?
<derek> am now
<jbailey> All hail Derek!  King of the world!
<derek> yo yo yo
Action: jbailey is away: Shower.
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:59:22)
<chillywilly> cutting the grass makes my legs itch
<derek> better than your butt
<derek> itching that is
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> ]someone is going to have to tell ajmitchie that I cannot do the GEAS  thang until later as we are going to go visit my grandma and it is an hour drive
<chillywilly> hour, hour and a half
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:14:09)
<chillywilly> that was a quick shower
<chillywilly> peaking of which I need to do that
<chillywilly> speaking
<jcater> 14 minutes is a quick shower?
<chillywilly> quick for some people
<chillywilly> the shower time length depends on how hung over you are doesn't it? ;)
<jcater> or who's joining you
<jcater> I suppose
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> I have to go soon, and the weather here is drying out my skin.
<chillywilly> lim ew
<chillywilly> er, ew
<chillywilly> freakin' keyboards
<chillywilly> yea, that's what I blame it on the freakin' keyboards
<chillywilly> I can type it's just the keyboard  doesn't like me so it plays tricks on me
<chillywilly> honest
<nickr> 14 minutes is a quick shower.
<chillywilly> thank you
<chillywilly> at least someone agrees with me
<chillywilly> ok, now let's see how long mine takes ;)
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<nickr> gah
<nickr> 80 column mode is so small
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<chillywilly> derek: you're so mean
<Yurik> chillywilly: wb
<chillywilly> thanks Yurik
Action: chillywilly will be leaving soon to go visit his grandma
<chillywilly> the only grand parent I got left
<chillywilly> hmm, I am getting old
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<chillywilly> hi Remosi
<chillywilly> bye
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
<nickr> 80x60 is much better
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Action: derek has get to get nickr some tunes other than NIN
<nickr> heh
<nickr> I've been on a nin kick lately.
<nickr> erk
<nickr> this text spreadsheet is hard to use
<jcater> nickr: just use emacs
<nickr> emacs doesn't have a spreadsheet does it?
<nickr> it should though.
<nickr> okay, I have a few minutes to work on the packages for gnue now
<nickr> I was wondering what packages base depends on?
<nickr> or recommends|suggests
<jcater> gnue-common?
<nickr> yea
<nickr> Its not obvious just looking at it, so I thought I'd ask
<jcater> requires: python2.1, python2.1-egenix-mxdatetime
<jcater> um, what's the definition of "suggests" ?
<jcater> and "recommends"
<nickr> Suggests are things that it'd be nice to have but doesn't need to be useful
<nickr> recommends are things that are not required to use it but make it much better
<nickr> like recommends would be whdere you put db drivers
Action: jcater thinks python2.1-mysqldb and python2.1-psycopg should be in recommends
<nickr> and the postgres one too?
<nickr> oh
<nickr> that is the postgres one :)
<nickr> will it build correctly without them installed and still support them if they are installed?
<jcater> yes to both
<nickr> okay
<nickr> can it build okay without egenix-mxdatetime installed?
<jcater> um
<jcater> that's a toughy
<jcater> it builds with only python
<jcater> (depending on how you define build)
<nickr> well build/install
<nickr> makes cool pyc files and puts them in the right spots
<jcater> but date support is provided by egenix datetime
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater thinks datetime will be "required" for gnue-forms
<jcater> but "recommended" for common
<jcater> as I know forms "needs" it
<jcater> but I guess you're right, common doesn't
<nickr> well it can still depend on it without having a build-depend on it.
<derek> nickr: emacs has a spreadsheet
<derek> and a graphing calculator
<derek> and an image viewer
<derek> and and and
<derek> http://www.gnu.org/software/dismal/
<jcater> nickr: ah
<derek> DIs Mode Aint Lotus (DISMAL)
Action: jcater is a debian packaging newbie
<jcater> derek: rofl
<jcater> nickr: gnue-common is a pure python play, so I don't think it "needs" anything but python to "build"
<derek> in fact tehre are two spreadsheets for emacs the others is eSheet
<derek> http://esheet.sourceforge.net/
Action: derek is so disappointed that nickr had so little faith in emacs :)
<nickr> and python-dev
<nickr> well I'm disappointed that there was no spreadsheet builtin
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> is there any way to prevent setup from installing etc/ into etc?
<jcater> ?
<nickr> I can't install the sample conf files into /etc if eventually there'll be a debconf wizard to set that up or something
<nickr> I have to put them in examples/
<jcater> not at the moment
<nickr> I'll jupst move them manually then
<nickr> hrm, does it just stick all of etc/ into /etc?
<nickr> or a subdir?
<jcater> no subdirs
<nickr> erk
<jcater> nickr: maybe you need to tell us what you need to do it "properly"
<jcater> make notes as you go along and we'll make it a TODO
<nickr> if setup stuck the etc/ stuff into etc/gnue/ I could just mv that down to usr/share/doc/gnue-common/examples/
<nickr> since you're using disttools it makes things really easy otherwise.
<nickr> as long as the prefix thing works correctly.
<nickr> or if it didn't install etc at all that'd be easy too
<nickr> pycs are platform neutral right?
<jcater> that's my understanding
<jcater> they are python-version dependent
<jcater> but platform independent
<nickr> right
<nickr> I'm building with 2.1, snice that is the debian default I believe.
<nickr> or rather the 'official' version
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> it's a good "safe" version too
<jcater> that's what we all do development with
<nickr> Good
<nickr> erk.
<nickr> it sticks everything in usr/local
<nickr> GRR RAWR>
<nickr> do you like hardcode usr/local into it?
<jcater> that's settable
<nickr> erk
<jcater> although everything is still relative to a base directory
<jcater> i.e., gnue/
<nickr> yea
<nickr> bad.
<jcater> I can hack around that if this is really causing a problem
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<btami> hi all
<jcater> hello
<nickr> well, it respecting prefix would be nice.
<nickr> --prefix rather.
<jcater> does it not?
<nickr> It doesn't appear to.
<jcater> hmm
<nickr> if it didn't fucking insist on putting everything under the gnue prefix this would be much easier
<nickr> for example, if it actually installed stuff in a FHS compliant manner.
<jcater> ok
<jcater> how do you want it installed
<jcater> and I'll see what I can do real quick
<nickr> well
<nickr> I canmove everything
<nickr> my main issue is that these stupid paths are being hardcoded into files somewhere
<jcater> yeah... that's what I was about to fix
<nickr> alll the python libs should go in usr/lib/python$VERSION/gnue/
<nickr> all the images and stuff should go in usr/share
<jcater> well, the first one we fought hard to stop our setup from doing
<nickr> the docs and such can go wherever, I'll just move them
<jcater> as that's a bad no-no
<nickr> um?
<nickr> what I'd suggest is making it so if I set prefix to / it'll be FHS compliant :)
<nickr> if not that, I can fix the layout with mvs as long as the paths aren't hardcoded.
<nickr> but that presents a host of other problems I'm sure
<derek> can we make it come in blue?
<nickr> cornflower blue, yes
<jcater> well, I'm trying to get around the hard coded problem
<jcater> but not sure what I cna do about the other
<jcater> as the other is great, for debian
<jcater> :)
<jcater> but we are more than debian
<jcater> that's where our issue comes from
<nickr> right
<nickr> makeing it fhs under the prefix would solve a host of problems with me but shouldn't really cause any for other platforms
<nickr> if there were like one file I could run sed over to fix the prefix path after everything is installed, that'd be great
<jcater> I'm thinking of having a site.cfg
<jcater> that the scripts need to know the location of
<jcater> but it would contain pointers to the other directories
<nickr> hrm.
<jcater> (i.e., images are in /usr/share/gnue/images, etc [or whatever])
<nickr> if I could give its path explicitly to setup, that'd be fine, eg it'd guess based on the install path if none was provided, but I could trick it
<nickr> so I could say setup.py --root debian/build --prefix / --cfg-path /etc/gnue/ :)
<jcater> I'll see what I can do
<nickr> cool
<nickr> once this is solved, the rest is easy
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<jcater> did I scare him away?
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<nickr> oif
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<nickr> derek: and I'm listening to Lo-Fidelity Allstars now too.
<btami> jcater: can i ask you to close ticket  #19 ?
<jcater> sure
<jcater> was it resolved?
<btami> i have to say sorry
<btami> i was wrong in the wxModern/wxDEFAULt font issue
<btami> wxDEFAULT realy not a fixed width font 
<btami> er really 
<btami> but there is a brand new ticket #29 for you :)
<jcater> yeah, I saw :)
<jcater> haven't had a chance to look at it yet
<jcater> is that the jump to record bug? using interbase?
<btami> yes
<btami> i'v tried it with pygresql too
<jcater> and it doesn't work there either?
<btami> yes :(
<jcater> ok, that's good to know
<btami> harald sended me an email
<btami> he find this with mysql before
<btami> but was not sere this is a GNUe or mysql driver bug
<btami> er sure
<btami> i think GNUe :)
<btami> and there is another issue, maybe related to this
<btami> thi is the old _loadNextRecord() problem
<btami> er this
<btami> i found the same workaround in meny DBdriver.py
<btami> i know the reason in interbase driver
<btami> the fetchmany() doesn't match exectly with Python-DB-API-2.0 spec
<btami> it says: says: An Error (or subclass) exception is raised if the previous call to executeXXX() did not produce any result set or no call was issued yet
<btami> but in kinterbasdb fetchmany calls _fetch() 
<btami> and doesn'n knows that _fetch() reached none before. 
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<psu> lo
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<btami> interbase gives back only 1 record from a cursor at a time
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<btami> maybe the same problem exist in mysql, and some of postgresql python drivers
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> we wrote all these drivers based on a Python DB-SIG standard
<jcater> we quickly found out that they all behave differently
<jcater> against the "standard"
<jcater> which is why we see these quirks
<jcater> so while it's easy to say "yeah, it's gnue's problem"
<jcater> (which is partially is)
<jcater> we are the first app AFAIK to actually use all these "standardized" database drivers side-by-side
<jcater> but as soon as I get a chance to test
<jcater> I'll see if I can find out the issues with those two drivers
<btami> i think there would be a better workarond to implement a last record attribute in the class
<btami> and manage that
<btami> and we can catch the real database errors, not to pass them
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<btami> mmm chineise food
<btami> time to supper
<btami> by
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<nickr> mmmm
<nickr> pizza
<nickr> mmm
<nickr> damnit, I spent all my cash on sticky tape and porno mags
<nickr> err quarters
<nickr> for laundry.
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<gontran> afternoon 
<nickr> greetings
<psu> hi
Action: psu is back
<gontran> which version of PyGreSQL to use?  3.2?
<psu> I believe we are fairly version-neutral
<gontran> ok
<psu> as i've never seen it discussed as an issue
<gontran> thx
<psu> as opposed to, say, the frequent "which version of python did you say?"
<gontran> will 2.1.1 be OK?
<jcater> gontran: definitely
Action: gontran wipes forehead
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<btami> hi all again
<jcater> btami: howdy
<nickr> banco de gaia: drunk as a monk is an excellent track
<btami> i'v just sended a new patch to jcater@gnue.org
<jcater> yes
<jcater> just got it
<jcater> have you sent in a copyright assignment?
Action: jcater forgets
<btami> i'v agreed it to jamest before
<btami> but i never get a paper
<btami> or got :)
<jcater> I'll have to assume you've tested these patches... because I don't have interbase to test against :)
<btami> of corse
<btami> er course
<jcater> nickr: you here?
<btami> i think i am the only interbase user around here:)
<nickr> yep
<jcater> btami: I think we've had another interbase user come in lately
<btami> oh
<jcater> nickr: do you have a build/install script or something that calls our setup.py?
<jcater> btami: so they'll be happy to see your patch :)
<nickr> jcater: how do you mean?
<jcater> I'm just trying to get an idea of how you are doing this
<nickr> ah
<jcater> I've added a --cfg-path /path/to/an/etc/dir  to common's setup.py
<nickr> from a makefile I call python2.1 setup.py build and then later on call install --root ./debian/build --prefix '/'
<nickr> ah
<jcater> ok
<nickr> cool
<jcater> in between the build and install parts
<jcater> a site_config.cfg file is created
<jcater> you can append to this file
<jcater> common_etc = /etc/gnue
<jcater> common_images = /usr/share/gnue/images
<jcater> ...etc
<jcater> and the setup.py install (with a --cfg-path setting) will copy this file 
<jcater> and the tools will respect it
<jcater> (as long as they are also passed the --cfg-path setting)
<jcater> this doesn't have the setup.py install files into proper places
<jcater> but it gives you a way to make the tools respect any moves you do
<jcater> the first one will have to wait until we have a decent install tool :(
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> okay
<jcater> actually, let me change one thing
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<btami> jcater: what do you think about a new lastrecord atrrib in the GDataObject ResultSet class ?
<btami> maybe it would be a better workaround then owerriding the _loadNextRecord in many drivers
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> lemme think about that for a minute
<jcater> I forget why we didn't do that
<jcater> initially
<jcater> but we had a reason
<jcater> but my darn old memory is failing me
<btami> _loadNextRecord is calls fetchmany()
<btami> and fetchmany is not implemented correctly in many drivers
<jcater> nickr:  I changed that to "setup.py --cfg-file /etc/gnue/site.cfg"
<jcater> that would have to be passed to all the tools' setup.py's too, not just common
<nickr> I should refer to the final path of the config file?
<jcater> but common is the one that makes the file
<jcater> yeah, filename included
<nickr> does it matter that that file won't exist until the package is installed?
<jcater> no
<jcater> shouldn't
<nickr> Good, just makisg sure :)
<btami> jcater: then  _loadNextRecord would be called only when lastrecord=0
<btami> in first/last/next/prev/set record
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I can't see any problem with that
<jcater> at first I was afraid of a performance hit
<jcater> but that could be a performance gain
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<btami> jcater: can i make a DCL wo for you about this? :)
<jcater> um
<jcater> sure
<btami> or try to implement it myself?
<jcater> I'll try to get to it tomorrow if I can
<btami> ok
<jcater> bigbrother: what's the weather going to be like tonight?
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I need to retrain him to be more useful
<jcater> :)
<psu>  well, now he's broken his chillywilly-slapping habit...
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<nickr> MOO
<psu> how now, brooklyn cow?
<btami> jcater: i'v just made a workorder
<btami> jcater: but responsible is 
<nickr> Eh! I'm mooan' ova hea
<btami> james :)
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<btami> g'night
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<sledge_> hi there
<sledge_> jcater?
<sledge_> :)
<derek> hey no fair playing w/o me
<jcater> sledge_: wassup?
<sledge_> i received your mails
<sledge_> i understand the toolbar issue; please discuss that point. i'm highly annoyed by the current designer UI.
<derek> personally it is not OK imho to get rid of the toolbar
<jcater> sledge_: what issues do you ahve with it?
<derek> i do think its ok to make an option in gnue.conf
<jcater> I don't necessarily like it either
<derek> to not display it
<derek> so everyone is happy
<derek> jcater: my users live by it
<jcater> but I want a complete UI plan before we do anything like that
<derek> though they dont particularly like the icons ;0
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<jcater> derek: so do I
<jcater> :)
<nickr> pizza
<derek> nickr: jerk
<jcater> derek, don't worry
<nickr> I'm harming myslef more than you, I assure you
<jcater> I've given nickr more tools to do packaging
<jcater> so he has no excuse now :)
<derek> rock
<sledge_> my problem with the toolbar is that it provides a second functionally identical way of achieving something (in that case, changing certain values) which confuses users; it might be "practical" for the people who are used to it - but that's also true for e.g. sendmail.cf
<derek> no offense but that makes little sense
<derek> its a matter of preference
<derek> its nice to have more than one way to do something
<derek> as long as all the way s do the same thning
<derek> i have NO problem making it optional
<derek> BUT to remove it will have 50% of the people asking why we dont have a toolbar
<derek> for that fact if we go to single way of doing something throw menus in the trash too as they would be confusing
<nickr> menus are confusing
<sledge_> no - it's bad to have more than one identical way. it's confusing. it's misleading. you will have 50% of the current users asking why there is no longer a toolbar, but please consider future users.
<nickr> seriously, I don't understand why they are so widely adopted.
<jcater> I'm still thoroughly confused
<nickr> for random access stuff there should be buttons, for workflow there should be wizards
<derek> well let me put it this way, i think there should be a toolbar
<jcater> as by this argument, let's do away with designer and create a command line script
<derek> you all can take it out, but it will keep coming back until my cvs access goes away
<jcater> as everything can be done via command line
<derek> at which point it will go in a separate cvs
<derek> i think OPTIONAL is the right answer
<derek> as it give EVERYONE what they want
<derek> if you dont like the tool bar simply remove it via an option
<derek> hell if enough people are anti toolbar you could even make that the default
<sledge_> concerning "optional", there was a good argumentation against that (havoc pennington on gnome 2)
<sledge_> i don't think that making a bad UI element optional is as bad as keeping it
<sledge_> s/don't/do/;
<derek> i guess i am curiuos as to why its 'bad'
<jcater> as am I
<derek> because hackers dont like it
<derek> doesnt make it bad
<jcater> I'm going for ease of use
<derek> when i give someone a piece of software and thats the FIRST thing they use
<jcater> not to win a UI design award
<derek> that tells me something
<derek> let me say this
<derek> all the 'geeks' think the START button is lame
<derek> but oddly to get no geeks to use gnome/kde
<derek> guess what there are 'program' menus
<derek> you will have a real hard time convincing me toolbars are horrid and evil
<derek> they may not be your favorite but that doesnt make them bad
<sledge_> i think we are not talking of the same toolbar
<derek> plus if i used havocs logic
<derek> i wouldnt be supporting MySQL as a database
<derek> its a horrid piece of shit and i could argue friends dont let friends use MySQL
<derek> but we give people the option :)
<sledge_> i do not refer to the toolbar which includes the little icons!!!
<derek> sledge_: ah
<derek> what is the 'tool bar' then?
<sledge_> sorry, because it's misleadingly called "ToolBar" in the source code :(
<sledge_> ToolBar in Designer is that thing which is beneath the actual form layout, letting you change name, x, y, w, h
<derek> ah dood, you have me worked up over nothing :)
<derek> i fully agree with that one :)
<sledge_> i don't think that tool bars in the common sense of the word are bad
<jcater> I still want to make it OPTIONAL
<jcater> as I rely on that
<derek> tahts fine
<jcater> I HATE having to have a Property Editor up
<jcater> just to change common attributes
<derek> i dont think its horrid
Action: sledge_ makes a notice: better communication
<jcater> I DETEST it
<derek> jcater: it wouldnt be bad if you made say F11 or F12
<derek> toggle between the form and the property editor
<derek> as then you can have one on top and one on bottom
<sledge_> jcater: but a good drag&drop (think: delphi) would render that ToolBar useless and is way more intuitive
<derek> and not use mouse to get back and forth
<derek> sledge_: you can do some of that now
<jcater> sledge_: sure
<derek> sledge_: note, dont say delphi tell him its an old oracle feature :)
<jcater> but I still don't like it
<derek> you will get farther
<jcater> not to pull rank or anything
<jcater> but I use that bar
<jcater> :)
<sledge_> would you use that bar if the d&d was as good as delphi's? you have to use the mouse in both cases, so the ToolBar doesn't give you the advantage of "quick editing"!
<jcater> I am not familiar w/delphi's drag and drop
<sledge_> may i explain the delphi d&d? :)
<jcater> sure
<jcater> but I will repeat what I said earlier
<jcater> I have no intention of making major UI changes
<jcater> prior to a release
<jcater> and without a cohesive plan
<jcater> Our UI was certainly hacked together
<jcater> and it needs to be revamped
<sledge_> ACK
<jcater> but I don't want to hack away hacks
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<sledge_> could we continue with "constructive mode"
<jcater> err
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I thought we were being
<sledge_> delphi d&d is quite simple
<sledge_> moving an object: immediate response of the UI, which means that the element is moved the same moment you move the mouse
<sledge_> resizing an object: The object has 4 corners that, when dragged, resize the object. again: immediate response.
<sledge_> that's all.
<jcater> sure
<jcater> that takes care of those two things
<jcater> which I'd like to note, we currently have those too
<sledge_> well, the current state is not very satisfying when it comes to immediate response, but i will take a deeper look into that issue anyway.
<jcater> well, that's more related to wx than us :(
<sledge_> i know, wx has some disadvantages ...
<ajmitch> yep
<jcater> but the advantages we gain currently outway the disadvantages
<jcater> although it can be frustrating
<sledge_> yep, the typical tradeoff problem
<sledge_> german saying, mainly used by young people: "irgendwas ist ja immer" -> "there's always something", something referring to a problem :)
Action: sledge_ lights a cigarette on having discussed that issue in a fruitful manner
<jcater> those things will kill you, you know
<sledge_> i know; but first, it's my turn to kill them :) seriously, i'll stop that after my exams (quite stressing)
<ajmitch> either the cigarettes will kill him, or he will be driven crazy by this channel
<sledge_> in a circle of crazy people, your only chance to survive is to become crazy, too :)
<ajmitch> :)
<sledge_> jcater: constructively, if i find a way to create a convenient d&d method for designer, would you consider dropping the ToolBar?
<jcater> sledge_: I'm not arguing for the bar
<jcater> I'm arguing against any knee-jerk changes this close to a release
<jcater> and I would like to come up with a cohesive UI plan before making lots of changes to the UI
<sledge_> why not try to fix the current UI, and when these changes are too "hacked", we redesign the UI?
<sledge_> of course, respecting the release plans!
<sledge_> (i may note that i don't know anything about gnue release plans)
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<jcater> sledge_: within a few days
<jcater> sledge_: because until we have a respectable alternative
<jcater> it will cause more frustration to remove the bar
<jcater> than to leave it
<sledge_> okay - i have a lot of other things to do the next days, so we can proceed on the point after the release
<jcater> and maybe derek's F10/F11 quick keys may be enough
<sledge_> quick keys are also "habit" usage, not "intuitive" usage. UI design _is_ important. They may of course continue to exist beside an "intuitive" way.
<sledge_> i have another point :)
<sledge_> s/point/subject/
<sledge_> il18n
<sledge_> is usage of gettext or something comparable a desireable goal for the future?
<sledge_> bad question
<sledge_> jcater: concerning my "forms" patch, i'll try to look for the error-producing gfd file and send you the file and the python standard trace. okay?
<jcater> cool
<jcater> sounds good
<sledge_> last subject, have you incorporated the "trigger rename" patch?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> this morning
<sledge_> great :)
<sledge_> then everything is okay on my side
<sledge_> it's nice to be so productive with you all :)
<sledge_> i go to be now, it's 2:00am local time
<sledge_> ttfn
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<derek> bbl
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<ajmitch> mdean!!!!
<ajmitch> long time no see1
<mdean> halo
<jcater> mdean!
<Maniac> halo!
<mdean> halo
<mdean> sup guys
<Maniac> howrabuddy?
<Maniac> howryabuddy?
<mdean> ok - wa enta?
<Maniac> good
<Maniac> ....and with that he vanishes :P
Action: mdean smacks Maniac with a Borland Turbo Pascal 7 reference set
<nickr> yow
<nickr> you could kill somebdoy with that
<nickr> turbovision has pointy edges
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<Maniac> ouch!
<Maniac> (internet latency)
Action: Maniac smacks mdean with the filemaker pro 5 bible
Action: Maniac spends 15 minutes and re-writes DCL in visual basic
<dtm> @#*!%)
<dtm> haha
<nickr> !@%%&&({)
<nickr> eek! filemaker
<Maniac> Macintosh users cannot be wrong
<nickr> Filemaker is satan
<ajmitch> yes they can :)
<Maniac> if satan used databases he'd use filemaker?
<ajmitch> he'd use MS SQL server
<dtm> filemaker is to be respected, not abused!
<ajmitch> might as well, he own's it anyway
<Maniac> i think not, he'd use access on windows with an app writen in visual basic
<dtm> ajmitch: that's right, or he might even enter ERP data into Excel!!!!!!
<Maniac> any zope fans in #gnuenterprise?
<ajmitch> dtm: excel 1?
<dtm> ajmitch: :-o
<ajmitch> Maniac: nah, why?
<Maniac> cause i'm getting inta zope
<ajmitch> Maniac: you using it for some evil ritual?
<dtm> Maniac: i used to know some
<Maniac> it's kinda pythonic
<ajmitch> i know, we'll make something better :P
<dtm> Maniac: people here are basically wanting to obviate Zope afaik
<dtm> Maniac: in python, no less
<ajmitch> all hail GEAS!!
<Maniac> obviate?
<dtm> GEAS
[20:41] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dtm> Maniac: to maneuver around it, to make irrelevant
<Maniac> WORKING CODE
[20:42] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dtm> Maniac: hHAEehehEHAERRRR
Action: ajmitch falls into the zombie-like incantation
<Maniac> dtm:  ah
<dtm> Maniac: *EVENTUALLY*
<dtm> ;)
<Maniac> zope is the basis of my new intranet project @ work
<ajmitch> eeevil
<Maniac> i could switch to postnuke?
<nickr> eep
<ajmitch> somebody warm up the defibrillators for mdean
<ajmitch> use webware
<ajmitch> (just cos you can :)
<Maniac> mmmm
<Maniac> i'm not a fan of psp
<Maniac> i just can't stand the "%" symbol
<ajmitch> hehe
<Maniac> or {} which is why me and php didn't get along
<Maniac> come to speak of it i don't like html.......
<Maniac> and i hate $variable
<ajmitch> i hate computers! they're evil!
<Maniac> ajmitch: exactwry!
Action: Maniac goes to play Counter-strike instead of use his brain
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> mdean, where aaaaarrrrreeee yoooooooou?
<Maniac> i'm in charge of spamming #gnuenterprise with worthless posts today
<ajmitch> let me! let me!
<Maniac> ok go ahead
<ajmitch> i think DCL should be rewritten in BF
<Maniac> "There's no such thing as gravity... The earth sucks"
<Maniac> BF?
<ajmitch> i think if you captured stdout you could do some stuff :)
<nickr> brainfuck
<nickr> very odd language
<ajmitch> yeah
<Maniac> "If a man says something and there are no women around to hear, is he still wrong?"
<nickr> No
<nickr> he is merely an ass
Action: Maniac notes, he's listening to Dr. Dre 
<Maniac> nickr: good point
Action: nickr listens to Eazy E
Action: Maniac listens to Eminem
<Maniac> and EATS M&M's
<dtm> :-o
<nickr> >:O
<Maniac> CLEAR
Action: Maniac uses the defibulalalkajf;aor on mdean
<Maniac> (sp)
<Maniac> nothing! goto 300!
<nickr> Eminem? that shits for pussies, N W A!
<Maniac> CLEAR!
<Maniac> ZING!
<Maniac> Charge to 400!
<Maniac> ZING!
<Maniac> no pulse.....
<ajmitch> quick! get the copy of windows XP!
<nickr> I don't think defribulators go 'zing'
<nickr> its more like 'pow'
Action: dtm puts the defibrulator in the microwave to heat it up for mdean
<Maniac> actaully in real life the just go " "
<ajmitch> shall we try the cattle prod next?
<Maniac> no sound at all
<Maniac> and they dont' tend to use paddles anymore
<dtm> hey!  this defribrulator's cold!  you want mdean to have an unpleasant experience or somtehing?
<ajmitch> we want to revive him
<Maniac> they just use little electrode thingies that they tape to your chest and press a button on a panel
<dtm> yeah and a cold defibrulator will sure get his attention!
<ajmitch> so can you sit there giving yourself jolts?
<Maniac> ajmitch: i spose so
<Maniac> the old fashioned ones are still used on TV and movies for visual effect 
<Maniac> (or so i'm told)
<ajmitch> or in poor countries like NZ
<nickr> yea, modern ones are fairly automated
Action: Maniac connects battery cables to mdean and starts the engine
<dtm> well how about that suit that M. Bison wore on the Street Fighter movie.  that was pretty boss
<nickr> they look at heart rythm and try to correct it automatically
<Maniac> nickr: see i'm not a total blathering idiot :P
<nickr> Maniac: are you sure?
<Maniac> automagically even
<Maniac> nickr: how's that document management thingy coming?
Action: Maniac DCC's mdean some happy thoughts
<nickr> Maniac: Pretty dead in the water
<nickr> no demand, no assistance, no motivation
<dtm> i found trivial document management at http://tavi.sf.net
<dtm> we integrated it into phpgw
<dtm> lightly, anyway
<dtm> you can see it at http://axisgroupware.com in the demo
<dtm> but it's just for text and html
<dtm> it does revisioning and stores in sql
<nickr> Maniac: I've actually been having some throughts of it lately
<dtm> nickr: you should work on Tavi!
<nickr> No.
<dtm> if it's at all relevant to your work
<nickr> I'm thinking of restructurling it to be more like a sort of immutable CVS of sorts
<nickr> well not exactly
<nickr> but something that more addresses my personal needs.
<nickr> play that funky music, white boy
<nickr> I should lay out plans for an organic document system too
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<ajmitch> hey jbailey
<jbailey> Heya ajmitch.
<nickr> hola jeff
Action: ajmitch applies cattle prod to dtm
<jbailey> Mr. Nick.
Action: ajmitch reads Axis todo
Action: nickr boogies.
<Maniac> nickr: dont' reimplement some cvs type of thing
<Maniac> IMO
<dtm> THE DCL STEERING SUMMIT IS HEREBY IN SESSION AND HAS BEEN RELOCATED TO #GNUENTERPRISE.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
<dtm> ALL SPLITTERS SHALL BE TERMINATED.
<Maniac> i had thoughts of using subversion (subversion.tigris.org) once it stabilizes some more as it has nice handling of binary formata
<Maniac> formats even
<Maniac> and has a python guru on the team
<ajmitch> OK DTM, WE SHALL DEFER TO YOUR AUTHORITY
<Maniac> so will have nice python interfaces
Action: dtm henceforth rescinds his authority
Action: dtm reclaims authority just long enough to assign the porting of Doom to AxisGroupware, to ajmitch
<ajmitch> lol
<dtm> you can use aalib
<ajmitch> how you gonna integrate that, eh?
<dtm> and ggi
<ajmitch> ooh
<ajmitch> lucky me
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 09:45:23)
<dtm> and repeated javascript refreshes
<ajmitch> ahh!
<ajmitch> chillywilly is back!
Action: ajmitch whimpers
<chillywilly> uh, ok
<dtm> or maybe even just taking keybd input, and rendering a live video stream
<ajmitch> hehe
<dtm> chillywilly: HIGH
<ajmitch> so is GNUe groupware stuff gonna use some funky multimedia conferencing tools?
<dtm> ajmitch: eh?  i guess so
<dtm> there's always webex for java
<dtm> which my company services
<dtm> you can't present with it, only view
<ajmitch> ugh
<jbailey> ajmitch: Sure, use gnuef to keep track of your p0rn accounts, and bayonne to connect to them...
<dtm> requires macos or windows for presenting
<ajmitch> sounds yucky
<dtm> ajmitch: well let's see you do better!  :)
<chillywilly> don't tempt him
<chillywilly> he needs to hack on geas with me ;)
<nickr> Maniac: its really more of a metadata versioning and indexing, with a physical store that can store anything you want. So it is SORT of like cvs/subversions, but vith a different purpose
<dtm> first you can start by purchasing a globally peered high speed QoS infrastructure.
Action: ajmitch grabs gstreamer & whips up an app
<chillywilly> :)
<dtm> we could discuss basic DCL usage if you guys wanna
<ajmitch> ok
<dtm> since the posse's here without its leaders
<dtm> @*#
<dtm> standby
<chillywilly> bah, I don't need no stinkin' leaders ;)
<ajmitch> dunno why i'm involved, since i have no affiliations with dcl ;)
<ajmitch> apart from thinking it rocks
<nickr> Posses.
<nickr> sheeeeeit
<ajmitch> stinks
<dtm> ajmitch: that's affiliation enough!
<dtm>     *
<dtm> those are my docs on how to get up to my level with dcl.
<dtm> you get the software, install it, and then see my tables
<dtm> you can start with my tables for the purpose of this conversation
<nickr>  I used DCL for a while but stopped because the debian package wasn't too good at the tiem
<dtm> just jump right ahead
<jbailey> nickr: It's been pulled from woody.
<dtm> there is not much purpose in requiring a premade package except to ask you a couple of questions and edit a text file for ya and create a db
<jbailey> nickr: There will be a decent DCL package in unstable and testing shortly after woody releases.
<dtm> it's really easy
<dtm> although it'd be nice if it was decently packages
<dtm> d
<dtm> but only use version 200202015!!
<dtm> ewps
<dtm> 20020215
<dtm> !!
<dtm> ok?
<jbailey> dtm: I have it done here, waiting for woody to release.  I don't want it in woody
<dtm> jbailey: you have what done?  you made a dcl package?
<jbailey> dtm: That would be consistant with the current conversation, yes.
<dtm> jbailey: uh yeah it would be consistant with one thread of it, yeah.  Thanks for the vague mental micromanagement!  Moving along!
<dtm> whoever's in the dcl discussion can look at the graphical table in http://home.smuckola.org/dcl_wishlist.html
<dtm> that's my impression of how dcl's static structure is organized
<dtm> i welcome anyone to clarify or correct that impression
<ajmitch> jbailey: where can us mortals download this package?
Action: ajmitch was just reading that page before
<jcater> gah
<dtm> the column "DCL component name" lists the terms DCL actually uses
<jcater> can someone give me the ip address of home.smuckola.org
<jcater> as it won't resolve for me
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~/src/cvs/gsim/src/examples/mm1$ host home.smuckola.org
<chillywilly> home.smuckola.org A record not found, server failure
<jbailey> 66.135.135.25
Action: ajmitch wonders why he can view the page :)
<jbailey> but it doesn't answer pings.
<dtm> jcater: sorry, ip25.promontory.sfo.interquest.net
<dtm> yeah it wont answer pings
<dtm> due to its firewall
<nickr> jbailey: this was about errr a year ago :)
<nickr> jbailey: I stopped using it when the upgrade fucked up my database.
<dtm> maybe i need to reduce the ttl on smuckola.org
<dtm> since i'm on dyndns
<jbailey> nickr: Thats why I didn't stop it from getting pulled from Woody.  There's no way I could get decent testing done on it where I was certain that upgrades would be seamless.
<dtm> i feel about 75% confident with DCL administration and about 90% confident with usage
<dtm> so i welcome input
<dtm> note that in the aforementioned doc, everything below the <hr> still needs to be sorted.  some of it's obsolete.
<dtm> so dont worry about it
<dtm> oh and i forgot to close the <ul> of FAQ
<dtm> so does everyone jive with that table?
<dtm> the "type of hierarchy" is my improvisation
<dtm> it's a little abstraction layer to help think about it
<dtm> it may also serve in redesigning DCL to be more flexible 
<dtm> i would like to propose that we focus on those basic types of hierarchies.. in other words, create high level flows or whatever.  and then allow the configuration of arbitrary amounts of component hierarchies
<dtm> in other words, to not have statically defined "domain" and "project" and "WO" concepts
<dtm> and to instead be more flexible for organizations who have higher levels of hierarchy, or finer grained hierarchy
<dtm> like a corporate conglomerate with multiple business units
<dtm> or for a workgroup that wants to use one DCL installation to manage their business and multiple related businesses and each of their personal lives.
<nickr> has the user interface been abstracted more? It seems ilke it was very ummm
<nickr> crosslinked
<dtm> everything in a DCL installation may be connected by the overall hierarchy, or by the same people participating in multiple hierarchies.
<dtm> nickr: explain
<dtm> nickr: btw i dont have all the answers and i'm not a coder but i will address and document issues
<dtm> nickr: abstracted from what to what?  i know everything's pretty crosslinked
<dtm> it feels sometimes like a labyrinth of concentric circles
<dtm> it's not bad, especially coz there are always the high level menus available
<dtm> i think it's done for convenience.
<dtm> it's a deep app
<dtm> ajmitch: where are you at with things?
<nickr> well I mean to allow easier interaction with the database in an abstract way
<nickr> like so additional apps could be written as sort of frontends to it
<dtm> does anyone here know if DCL domains create a separate namespace for usernames?  is there any ACL there, or is there one authentication base which can access all configured DCL domains?
<dtm> nickr: hmmmmm
<dtm> nickr: any particular kinds of apps?
<dtm> nickr: btw, that's a question for mdean and i doubt that the answer is affirmative
<dtm> nickr: although he may have plans
<nickr> I'm just big on abstraction. ;)
<dtm> nickr: in what way?  you like it, but dont want to implement it yourself?  or what
<nickr> hehe
<dtm> sounds like you want a lot of it
<nickr> No, I think it allows more flexibility
<dtm> whoops   i misstated that "you like it" sentence  :)
<dtm> never mind
<dtm> carry on
<dtm> disregard that sentence ;>
<nickr> and you can see the delineation of the layers, it allows you to identify where the problems are and such
<nickr> "Heh
Action: dtm calls to ajmitch for it to be stricken from the court
<dtm> i thought for some crazy reason that you said "i'm just not big on abstraction" and i was trying to make sense of that.
<dtm> i'm rather tireD!  :)
<dtm> i've been shopping for dog clothes 
<chillywilly> no excuses
<dtm> :-o
<chillywilly> you shall be thrown into the dungeon
<nickr> shopping for dog clothes would wear one out
<dtm> i prefer the lion den, please
<chillywilly> too bad, you don't get to choose
<dtm> nickr: yes....   CUTENESS QUOTIENT....  SKYROCKETING...          COMMENTS FROM PASSERSBY...INUNDATING.......
<dtm> CAN'T ..BREAK..FREEE.  OF ..     THE CUTENESS ZONE
<dtm> i think i should watch a horror movie sometime  :/
<chillywilly> who the fuxk uses the word inundating?
<dtm> chillywilly: that would be me!
<jbailey> fuxk?
<chillywilly> typo
<jbailey> Is that a fucked up version of fuck?
<dtm> yeah well there's no typo with me!  that's right!  i said "inundating"!!
<chillywilly> yea, very fucked
Action: chillywilly slaps dtm silly with an inundating trout
Action: dtm is inundated
<nickr> I use that word also
<nickr> Although I don't spell it right usually
<chillywilly> of course you would
<chillywilly> you are phucked
<nickr> yea
Action: chillywilly read about steambufs
<nickr> I have a huge vocoobulery but I don't spel so gut.
Action: ajmitch is here
<dtm> nickr: well if you'd like to document your UI abstraction ideas, that would be peachy
Action: jcater inundates everyone with absurd, unspoken inundations
Action: nickr inudates jcater with a conflagration
<ajmitch> :)
<dtm> ajmitch: what do you think of the aforementioned table
<ajmitch> unhh
<dtm> what doeSANYBODY THINK OF THE TABLE
Action: jcater wets himself to stop the conflagration from spreading
<dtm> UNLEASH YOUR FURY UPON THE TABLE
<ajmitch> looks good
<dtm> ajmitch: does it make sense?
<ajmitch> yeah, in a twisted sorta way it actually does!
<dtm> ajmitch: have you used dcl at all
<ajmitch> only a little :(
<dtm> it's been 48 mins and we've gotten just about nowhere in this discussion although i do appreciate what we've done.
<ajmitch> i know, i blame the lack of dcl gurus
<ajmitch> instead, you're lumped with the likes of me
<dtm> actually if you guys wanna wrap it up, at least take a look at my table ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE ACTUALLY USED DCL BEFORE, and gimme your input on it
<dtm> ajmitch: indeed, the bums!
<dtm> ajmitch: maybe they're doing something like raising a family or something
<ajmitch> sad
<jcater> I use it
<jcater> but am happy with it
<dtm> ajmitch: derek is probably victimized further by his x11 server
<jcater> except for a few peculiarities
<dtm> jcater: ok then look at my table and tell me what you think
<jcater> but, it's a weekend
<dtm> jcater: do you think that's the proper way to view dcl's structure and to map it to a generic org?
<jcater> btami has already made me work today w/patches
<jcater> and sledge_ has made me think
<jcater> it looks ok to me
<jcater> I do agree w/the defaulting
<jcater> that's one of the oddities of dcl imho
<jcater> in that, stuff that seems like it should default doesn't
<dtm> jcater: what do you think about the idea of redesigning DCL to not be static around its organization?  and to instead just have types of hierarchies which are arbitrarily configurable?:  do you dig?
<jcater> I'm not personally interested in the PHPgw stuff as it's ireelevant to me... so I can't comment on those
<jcater> static in what ways
<jcater> oh, I see your comments
<jcater> yeah, that'd be nice
<dtm> jcater: do you think that'd be relevant or is it just ranting from a non-coder and non-dcl-architect (that being me)
<jcater> well
SachaS (~sacha@dialup-196-213.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dtm> jcater: all i know is that dcl doesn't scale organizationally
<jcater> knee-jerk reaction says that it sounds great
<dtm> not even in my own life, because i wanna scale horizontally
<dtm> jcater: yeah
<jcater> but not sure how much recoding that'd take
<dtm> mmhmm
<dtm> jcater: and i would suggest that its current static structure should be the 'default' config for my proposed dynamic structure
<nickr> It'd be really, really cool if DCL could have sort of dynamic organizing like that
<dtm> see, i want one dcl installation to serve multiple businesses, plus the personal lives of the individuals
<dtm> so this would require that each person has their own products, departments, etc
<dtm> phpgw has at least a concept of that, in terms of their "global category"
<dtm> so maybe dcl could implement it literally as a "global category" from phpgwapi
<dtm> or maybe that would require more fully porting dcl atop phpgwapi, rather that its current state of nestling within or next to it
<dtm> but then, phpgwapi is a moving target
<dtm> do you guys have any other thoughts on my document?
<dtm> dcl_wishlist.html
<dtm> such as the stopgap use of 'security levels' to supplant the lack of ACLs
<dtm> and btw is anyone here interested in general groupware?
<chillywilly> well mdean is the GNUe Groupware masta, afaik
<dtm> do you guys wanna talk about the concepts of improving upon phpgw, having phpgw integrated with or cooperating with gnue, or reimplementing gruopware altogether uniquely on gnue?
<dtm> chillywilly: seems like it
<chillywilly> and as far as security goes we would be better off for an infrastructure for all of GNUe
<dtm> and he's most capable
<chillywilly> well we annouced it on the main site a while back ;)
<chillywilly> RBAC looks nice
<dtm> chillywilly: what's this about security?
<chillywilly> Role Based Access Control
<dtm> ah
<chillywilly> it's what SE Linux uses
<dtm> huh.
<jcater> well, it long pre-dated SE Linux
<jcater> and we wanted to use it long before SE Linux was even announced
<chillywilly> yea, but it sounds cool when mentioning it ;)
<dtm> ok well i've committed the time i preallocated to the DCL Steering Summit    it was a resounding success  :}  (i.e. two prescheduled people did show up, and DCL was discussed at all)   and i have to shampoo the couch
<dtm> and some carpet
<jcater> funny
<chillywilly> at this hour?
<chillywilly> you're a freak dtm
<jcater> I'm caulking and cleaning carpets
<jcater> :)
<dtm> maybe you guys can empathize with me here for a second .. it's *tremendously* valuable for me as a NON-CODER to have any of you people validate my ideas, or at least to look at em and to not discount them
<chillywilly> why wouldn't you do this in the morning so it can dry all day?
<jcater> we're closing on our new house in 7 weeks... so I'm in a rush to make mine rentable
<chillywilly> ah ok
<chillywilly> you're going to rent it?
<dtm> i want the real honest truth, and mdean has totally rewritten a lot of my preconceptions in the past, but in the case that i'm actually right, it does help a LOT when you guys validate it
<dtm> chillywilly: well the cats did a major major projectile vomit on it today
<dtm> on the couch
<dtm> soooo.....
<dtm> i think we should  probably address that first
<jcater> eew
<jcater> dtm: please go clean
<jcater> it makes me sick just thinking abou tit
<chillywilly> well from what I can see you want it to be more generic and extensible which is a good goal and only emphasizes the need for a framework like the one we are building ;)
<nickr> jcater: whats a matta? notta real man? tit make you sick?
<dtm> jcater: ok!
<chillywilly> I like tits
<chillywilly> big ones
Action: nickr enjoys tits of most shapes and sizes
<jcater> even conflagrating ones?
<jbailey> jcater: The hotter the babe, the better?
<jcater> how true
<nickr> lol
<jbailey> Wow, we're slow tonight. ;)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> I'm playing scrabble
<jbailey> "Playing solitaire 'till dawn, with a deck of 51"
<nickr> hah
<nickr> sounds like a microcosm of my life.
<nickr> if it were occuring in area 51 as well.
<nickr> tee
Action: nickr rocks out to Prodigy.
<nickr> hrm, I want to play Parasite Eve 2
dotgnu-sage (~blootbot@wlg1-port27.jetstart.win.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dotgnu-sage> Okay, I'm here. (courtesy of ajmitch)
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> this bot is full of crap - fill it some more
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: object
<dotgnu-sage> rumour has it, object is a physical (tangible and visible) entity, or in object oriented programming an object is a unique instance of a data type defined according to the template provided by it class. each object has its own values for its attributes belonging to its class and can respond to the methods defined by its class
<dtm> high
<dtm> whew
<dtm> couch has been steamed
<ajmitch> yp dtm
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: spam
<dotgnu-sage> No idea, nickr
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: assclown
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: I don't know
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: php
<dotgnu-sage> Bugger all, I dunno, nickr
<nickr> sheesh
<nickr> what good is it?
<chillywilly> teach it
<chillywilly> it is young
<chillywilly> and can be molded via your will
<chillywilly> s/via/to
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: assclown is See fudgepacker.
<chillywilly> or something
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: okay
<nickr> Ah, nice.
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: assclown
<dotgnu-sage> rumour has it, assclown is See fudgepacker.
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: fudgepacker
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
<nickr> Now I can save all my knowledge for future generations
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: objective-c
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: gnue
<dotgnu-sage> I guess gnue is GNU Enterprise - see http://www.gnuenterprise.org
<nickr> hey!
<nickr> that worked
<nickr> hee
<ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: factoid GNUe
<chillywilly> dneighbo: factinfo gnue
<chillywilly> woops
<dotgnu-sage> ajmitch: I don't know
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> oops
<chillywilly> not enough letters for my completion
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you suck
<ajmitch> i need to put it on a decent box
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: factinfo gnue
<ajmitch> 16:34.37 FORK(2864) MEM: increased by 632 kB. (total: 58764 kB)
<ajmitch> the box only has 32MB ram
<ajmitch> so it's thrashing about a little]=
<dotgnu-sage> gnue -- created by ajmitch <~me@wlg1-port27.jetstart.win.co.nz> 7m 55s ago; it has been requested once, last by nickr, 1m 46s ago.
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: get a real box
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: DCL
<ajmitch> chillywilly: gimme some cash then
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
Action: dotgnu-sage duct-tapes ajmitch to the floor and drools on him, courtesy of chillywilly
<dotgnu-sage> I haven't a clue, nickr
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: dotgnu
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: bot snack
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: I don't know, could you explain it?
<dotgnu-sage> :)
<chillywilly> ajmitch: I thought you entered a factoid for dotgnu?
<ajmitch> nope
<chillywilly> my bad
<chillywilly> it was..
<chillywilly> 22:33:52] <ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: pnet
<chillywilly> [22:33:53] <dotgnu-sage> hmm... pnet is a suite of free software tools to build and execute .NET applications, including a C# compiler, assembler, disassembler, and runtime engine.
<ajmitch> cut & paste from the webpage
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: man-bot love is unnatural, kinky, and illegal in 49 states
<dotgnu-sage> okay, nickr
<ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: man-bot love
<dotgnu-sage> I heard man-bot love is unnatural, kinky, and illegal in 49 states
<nickr> infobots are fun to abuse
<ajmitch> i know
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: suck it
<dotgnu-sage> I don't know, chillywilly
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: suck it
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: suck-it
<dotgnu-sage> whip it out bitch!
<ajmitch> nah
<nickr> hah
<ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: suck-it
<dotgnu-sage> it has been said that suck-it is get outta here
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: forget man-bot love
<dotgnu-sage> i forgot man-bot love, nickr
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: forget suck-it
<dotgnu-sage> i didn't have anything called 'suck-it', chillywilly
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: homo
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: I'm not sure, is it larger than a breadbox?
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: homo is the definition of you
<dotgnu-sage> okay, nickr
<nickr> chillywilly: now try ;)
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: what are these papers for is <reply> I have a whiping problem. I put these little squares on my brown eye and bam! No shits stains in the undies!
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: what are you talking about?
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: bah
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: I give up, what is it?
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: homo
<dotgnu-sage> rumour has it, homo is see nickr
<nickr> hah
<ajmitch> good luck, chillywilly ;)
<jbailey> nickr is a jug of milk!
<nickr> and rectangles!
<nickr> err
<jbailey> nickr: Exactly right!
<jbailey> =)
<chillywilly> why doesn't it like multiple words?
<chillywilly> I must be fucking that up
<nickr> I should learn the secrets of infobots
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: hurd
<dotgnu-sage> I don't know, nickr
mike (~mike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hey mike
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: the hurd
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
<mike> howdy ajmitch 
<ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: chillywilly
<dotgnu-sage> [chillywilly] a hot & horny lesbian warrior princess from the amazon
<chillywilly> aw sheeeeit
Nick change: mike -> crazymike
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> infobots are fun
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: ajmitch
<dotgnu-sage> it has been said that ajmitch is a butthole surfer
<crazymike> sup chillywilly 
<chillywilly> sup
<crazymike> how you be, nigga???
<chillywilly> I be tired
<crazymike> me too
<nickr> ajmitch: how do you get it to do the [foo] blah type response or whatevel?
<chillywilly> we drove to my grandma's house
<chillywilly> to visit
<crazymike> well...I gotsta run...later yo
<ajmitch> it just does so
<ajmitch> bye
<crazymike> I am at Jason's house
<crazymike> and his dialup runs this SLOW
<chillywilly> yea, that figures
<nickr> uh
<nickr> just does so?
<nickr> hrm
<crazymike> talk to ya later
<crazymike> exit
<chillywilly> lol
crazymike (~mike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: Client Quit
<ajmitch> well, chillywilly
<chillywilly> well, ajmitch
<ajmitch> dotgnu-sage: geas
<dotgnu-sage> I don't know, ajmitch
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: GEAS is the Gnu Enterprise Application Server
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: okay
<nickr> snoogans
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: geas is the GNU Enterprise Appliction Server and the middleware for the GNUe project, it serves as a means for managing and deploying multi-tier business applications.
<dotgnu-sage> ...but geas is already something else...
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: no, GEAS is the GNU Enterprise Appliction Server and the middleware for the GNUe project, it serves as a means for managing and deploying multi-tier business applications.
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: okay
<nickr> hehe
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: geas
<dotgnu-sage> geas is probably the GNU Enterprise Appliction Server and the middleware for the GNUe project, it serves as a means for managing and deploying multi-tier business applications.
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: nickr
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about
<nickr> dotgnu-sage: nickr is the coolest frood in the world!
<dotgnu-sage> nickr: okay
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: nickr
<dotgnu-sage> somebody said nickr was whacked
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<nickr> yea yea
<nickr> fuckers.
<chillywilly> fuck you, you fucking fucked up fuck
<ajmitch> hey, watch it
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> fuck...
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: fuck
<dotgnu-sage> Parse error: dunno what the heck you're talking about, chillywilly
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: fuck
<dotgnu-sage> somebody said fuck was mount; fsck; unmount
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: fuck
Action: dotgnu-sage mount; fsck; unmount
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: fuck
<dotgnu-sage> chillywilly: I don't know
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: sex
<dotgnu-sage> Bugger all, I dunno, chillywilly
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: sex
Action: dotgnu-sage mount; fsck; unmount
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: sex
Action: dotgnu-sage touch; mount; fsck; unmount; sleep
<chillywilly> dotgnu-sage: unixsex
Action: dotgnu-sage touch; mount; fsck; unmount; sleep
--- Sun Apr 28 2002