[00:06] Last message repeated 1 time(s). Nick change: Yurik[ZZzz] -> Yurik psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. psu: hi hi hi psu hi aj kc #26 is up in case youmissed it work time psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("work == money to pay for ISP"). I get my kicks on channel six reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.247) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard: hi btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. good morning all morning riandouglas (~Rian@205.252.49.2) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: "reboot!" Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: btami is away: lunch-time SachaS (~sacha@dialup-196-13.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. dtm ([T3XACGvdd@ip25.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dtm ([EaekC6mmF@ip105.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jammann_ (~chatzilla@212.55.210.222) joined #gnuenterprise. jammann_ (~chatzilla@212.55.210.222) left #gnuenterprise. Nick change: chillywilly -> cw-work dtm ([EaekC6mmF@ip105.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Nick change: SachaS -> SachaS_away SachaS_away (~sacha@dialup-196-13.wasp.net.au) left irc: "Client Exiting" Action: btami is back (gone 01:55:02) ToyMan (~stuq@65.167.123.51) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi jamest hi heve you seen the "jump recor bug" on DCL ? is it older bug? older then what? ticket #29 and #28 is another new :) oooo no i have not then ok are you on windows of the field width problem? yes ok in linux the same problem just tried now grrr ok Action: jamest will try and look into tonight ok maybe today if I can get some free time :) Action: btami is away: go home btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: "Client Exiting" ^chewie (~chewie@flemingi.dsl.visi.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jeffb@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Anyone here know Chillywilly's email address? danielb@freedevelopers.net Ah, I thought he had quit them. Thanks, reinhard. jbailey (~jeffb@atlas.fundserv.com) left irc: Client Quit jamest: i recently refreshed both tickets btami mentioned so you should be getting mail on them iirc Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello :) hi hi jamest off to lug meeting l8r all reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.247) left irc: "Everything that is worth fighting for, is worthy fighting dirty for" memmett (foobar@142.179.170.188) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. dotgnu-sage: kernel cousins Bugger all, I dunno, psu well, that's not very good, is it? hi everyone.. i'd like to use gnue for the "boiled frog trading cooperative" (www.boiledfrog.org; server might not respond due to stale dns entries.) is there a "getting started" guide or something similiar i could look at? i downloaded the latest snapshot, but i will use a "stable" release if that's what's recommended. memmett its called this irc channel :) get the snapshot or cvs get the dependencies and start going to town ask here if you have questions :) real time, interactive getting started guide with real NSA AI technology nickr um we only offer that with the 49.99/mo support contract Ahh why are you talking then? I thought you were one o those newfangled constructed personalities rofl nickr you make your move yet? programmed only for pizza and looooove or is that today no, tomarrow I get on a plane sweet. alrighty, *.gcd files.. how do i convert them to sql? nickr the discount rate is 2 large Pizza Joint Pizza's/mo memmett : ignore application server and gcd files altogether for right now GEASv1 is being replaced by GEASv2 so for now i suggest avoiding it, if you are wanting production stuff and look at doing 2 tier for now and when new version of GEAS is ready then upgrade to it ok.. so i'll just make a db normally and then use forms and designer to access it 2 tier for now? sounds good to me 2-tier has a bad press as n-tier is "fashionable" and to be fair is more flexible but as with all these things yes, i agree. i have no problem with 2-tier. just call it n-tier where n=2 once the fashion moves on the old gets forgotten Action: psu used to have a two-tier set up on my laptop with both the forms and the d/b on the same machnie does that make it 1-tier? ;-) The sales driods had snazzier laptops that had 3-tier on same machine but we were never allowed near those ;-) /dev/null - the *original* 0-tier app /dev/null is two tier cat is the client and /dev/null is the server Action: psu hates it when he gets beaten in a logic contest ;-) BAM memmett yes create db normally then use other tools jcater / jamest there is now a docbook channel here on openprojects and the maintainer (nwalsh) resides there so if you have docbook problems in teh future probably a good place to seek help dneighbo: I have no docbook issues :) I fixed my problem Action: jcater ducks Action: nickr plots to destroy all lyx in the universe. I'll probably regret asking this but would there be any point in converting our docbook-sgml docs to docbook-xml docs? & how big a job would it be? yes', there is a point xml is easier to work with i think there is benefit i dont think it would be a 'ton' of work as iirc sgml is more strict that xml so there probably isnt a 'ton' of change to the source its more strict in a different way BUT the DOWN side is i do not believe the xml/xslt combo is working all the way i believe things like PDF etc are still not working for Docbook, but are close tits because of FO you can get tits with FO Action: dneighbo decides i need to research this more ;) nickr correct they almost have FO fixed yes now they just need the stylesheets retrofited to suport it TITS Action: dneighbo needs to find a channel where doug tidwell hangs out who is that? or james clark nickr he is on of the leading authorities on xslt ahh cool i was talking to nwash giving him our gripes on docbook and saying how we had considered (though stupid) a mini markup for docs so develoeprs need not learn a whole markup language and newbies not be over whelmed ja he pointed me to http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/index.shtml Simple Docbook a small subset of Docbook I was advocating a simple markup language that didn't use <>tags which is 100% compatiable if you ever wanted to go out side of simple docbook like a extended plaintext format nickr well this looks simple enough i wouldnt be opposed to making a python converter i.e. so that one can write docs in simple text and use something simple like title:Developers Guide so something like POD p: which is easy to parse some stuff psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) take care of paragraphs automatically etc probably pod would be the best format to coopt well i actually meant title:My Document sect:My First Point foo [13:49] Last message repeated 2 time(s). yea blah pod is easier to parse sect:My Second Point =title My Document =sect1 a section =sect2 a subsection i dont know what pod is etc but i dont want perl anything :) its the perl document format even if it means redoing something in python its sort of simiral to roff its a religious thing to me stfu its a very good format i woudl rather take time to rewrite in python simple, easy, and expressive enough so other python folks can have it :) than to suffer using perl I'm not advocating using actual pod tools just the format cool becgause its EASY works for me Action: dneighbo is investigating simple docbook if its really simple might just as well use it pod would be fairly trivial to convert into docbook gack simple docbook has 106 elements i was thinking more like under 50 nick if you would consider following this perhaps its worth doing i think i could take the list of elements in simple docbook print them out and go through and pare it down to a small subset we would actually use (probably about 30) and then that could be what we make supported for this pod format and it would basically just convert a text file into docbook xml seems like such a waste though sigh why can not someone make a good doc tool? I think the pod format would obviate which tagfs would be used on the other end Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: Remote closed the connection hrm we may have to add a number of tags maybe going the other way is the answer the general style of it is useful thougch nickr sorry was away um i dont mind supporting things that are not in simple docbook, but are in normal docbook but i dont think it worth it to support things that are not in docbook :) though i think we might be going about this wrong well what I mean is we'll have to add tags to the 'pod ethic' because its really missing a lot of functionality that we need i think the right answer (or another answer) is to get staroffice/abiword to work i.e. if we defined 'styles' for those ja (i know staroffice can do this) well writing an xslt thing to convert abiword xml docs and we make a custom one would be easy then create XSLT to go from abiword supports all the 'logical markup' we need its just a pain to use it :) docbook to so and so to docbook etc this is kind of how we were using lyx only iirc it was one way only you made in lyx then could export to docbook if done properly one could go from docbook to so or so to docbook but would have to abide by a certain stylesheet Action: dneighbo just doesnt want to spend time donig this sort of thing it would be nice to have a cohesive doc solution though yea I wrote a haiku about OMDG your abstractions baffle / separating form from fact / why are you so dumb? dsmith (~dsmith@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection btami (~btami@dial-2-133.emitel.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all dsmith (~dsmith@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: Client Quit rofl hey how hard is it to switch window manager? like from gnome to say fluxbox? if i apt-get it will it make it my default? Action: dneighbo supposes i could install gdm then it would probalby show up as an option there Action: dneighbo will be back dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "foo" (ratpoison is a great wm :) dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. umm fluxbox is yummy by certain definitions of yummy. Action: dneighbo just needs to find out how to make a red theme and i might be rid of gnome at home :) traitor well actually that machine has plenty of power so i will keep gnome there i think but on machines with less horsepower this seems nice cool a default theme that matches my needs 'twice' is there a forms reference somewhere (so i can create a form by hand) ? any reason you dont wnat to use the designer ? in gnue/forms/doc/ there shoudl be techref which i think is what you are asking for i'm at work, x11 forwarding is busticated ok, thanks rofl :) emacs works fine we made forms for over a year this way :) excellent (pardon my ignorance.. wtf is rofl?) rolling on floor laughing ahh.. thanks btami (~btami@dial-2-133.emitel.hu) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) cool... I have to put reports in production now scary! muhahaha tonight i can bang on text reports if it helps and html etc so if you feed me dcl items i can look at them Action: dneighbo wants to feel important anyhow nickr: http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/fluxbox.png a suitably red fluxbox Action: dneighbo is worried, my screenshots are more and more minimalist, soon i will be nickr, with just full screen terms as screenshots all i can say is yikes, i didnt realize how heavy gnome was as i compared kde and gnome and found them somewhat similar ToyMan (~stuq@65.167.123.51) left irc: "Client Exiting" but this seems to be quite a bit snappier do i need to install a pythong ncurses module for -u text or -u pytext to work? s/pythong/python/ um i think we have moved to ntti the curses implementation is currently broken iirc but its darn close to working again jamest woudl be the one to ask i think we were wanting it back either for the next release or the release following that we hvae tried two different curses implemenations and are moving to our third original was pyncurses which is -u pytext and then i think we went to native python curses which was -u text now i think we have adopted ntti and i am not sure what -u it is jamest you aroudn/ brb dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "Read error: 666 (Connection reset by Satan)" dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. does gfcvs (or gfclient) work with python2.2 (i seem to remember something in the gnue kc a while back about this...)? dneighbo: whats the url to your screenshot again? nm hrm, that theme looks suspciously similar to my website i knew i liked your website :) memmett yes i had unicode problems with 2.2betaX but others didnt get same issue so its probably safe we generally recommend 2.1 2.2.1 should be safe if you dont have a python yet but I'd avoid 2.2.0 as thats what we develop on but our current motto is 2.x or greater :) we try to stick to that cool.. looks like i'll need to install the "nstti" (not so tiny text interface...) bummer, no debian package. (fyi, i had to install the python2.2-egenix-mxdatetime deb package) memmett: that is no where near usable the nstti that is oh. bummer is it worth trying to make is usable? (ie, should i punt around with it or not?) err, it was in it's final stages we are actually patching nstti to add more functionality to ity jcater : it will be our text one though correct? nstti i thought jamest was getting close i stated it wasnt usable but should be soon yes soon == next release, or release after that um, definitely not next release hopefully by the one after that i'll mess around with it. should i submit bug reports? (if/when i find bugs) yes ok err dtm ([njxJYf+ur@ip105.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: no fear they go to jamest :) iirc he is 'responsible' for forms in dcl I'm dead serious about it not being far enough along e.g., there are no bugs :) memmett in that case it might be too far to file anything against jamest: what would be nice is if you could flesh out the TODO's to get nstti working and file them as workorders in dcl or if you can just jot them down in a txt file and email me i will start a 'project' it's a shell and create the work orders basically enough code there to say this _might_ work so people can monitor progress jamest: that is cool, but i imagine you have or will have a plan of attack we're having to fix up nstti as we go (in fact it's in cvs on www.gnuenterprise.org with authors permission) if you can get that to me in text file i can start some 'management' of it :) dneighbo: you could offer to write it jamest: that is fine we can add that a product in DCL if we want as well jcater: the point being if we could the list of what to do maybe i can find someone to write it :) maybe even me but it helps to ahve a 'pocket guide' or sense of purpsoe for example this is something i htink arturas could possibly tackle dneighbo: is there any special reason why you silently didn't show up for the DCL meeting? i have to go now but it would be nice to give him specific tasks jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "l8r" dneighbo: just curious; we can have another one if i know when is best dtm: i had 10 teenagers FORCING me to play video games :) dneighbo: huh? dneighbo: so why didn't you even let us know i seriously thought i would have time, but we actually got a 3 third tv and xbox so between playstation - 5 controllers xbox - 2 controllers dneighbo: coz we had about 5 people in here waiting for you dneighbo: for about 1hr dtm: dont you ahve my contact numbers? dtm: i do apologize dneighbo: no of course not! why would i have those? i said i thought i could make it not definitive, i didnt know you had anyone other than mdean and you responding as of like 5pm on friday Action: dneighbo isnt making excuses though it was wrong of me to not say couldnt make it (even if last minute) dneighbo: ok well i was just wondering if there's a better time but i guess it's chaos :) dneighbo: i hear ya, it's not like we wasted our time :) dneighbo: dont worry about it; you're a workaholic enough. i was just curious dneighbo: mdean showed up about 30 mins beforehand and then remained silent. he never RSVPd dneighbo: you never said you could make it, either. i had to ask you about 3 or 4 times to respond to it and you just sorta rambled on about something without answering :) so i just sorta got an idea of who else is interested in dcl cool that's important so i can at least sanity check ideas i have some pretty far out ideas sometimes and i need architects/coders to bounce em off of one person wanted to know if dcl's UI could be abstracted such that it could be made into a frontend for other apps of some unspecified kind. i guess like dclapi. and another person thought the UI was a bit twisty but oh well! :) ? that it's like wandering around in a small maze if someone wanted a generic UI piece point them to gnue forms :) yeah dcl is properly abstracted good DCL ROOLZ presentation, logic, storage but i dont think there would be much major value in reuse of the UI and i personally would like to know if there's any use in tryihng to salvage phpgw for long term use maybe i need to install it and play some specially with the contact stuff dneighbo: does gnue intend to become a RAD environment? it is already dneighbo: what contact stuff? does dcl have contact mgmt? it does not want to be Delphi, powerbuilder, VisualBasic it wants to be a Business RAD tool dneighbo: what i meant to say was, does gnue intend to be a RAD for newbies. kinda like LAMP is. dneighbo: coz phpgw is basically a LAMP RAD im not familiar with lamp i have heard of it lamp == linux/apache/mysql/php generic term but not followed it you know, basically throwing something together quick and dirty but stable i'm trying to envision phpgw's long term relationship toward gnue my view is that GNUe Tools are RBAD = Rapid Business Application Development tools geared as much towards :business/system analysts: as programmers i wonder if gnue intends to have a php and sql driver, then could phpgw apps and LAMP apps be consistnatly ported to it with the same simplicity that LAMP apps are ported to phpgw? i.e. if you can understand teh structure model of your data and can define what 'rules' you want you should be able to make applications in GNUe w/o beign a hard core programmer mmhmm much the way our analysts today can open up Excel, do some spiff work sheet functions, maybe even make some macros adn do some pretty cool stuff but if you asked them to 'program' something they might laugh at you dneighbo: a lot of the LAMP and phpgw people are not senior engineers :) in fact many of them are flat out learning sql and php by writing or porting a LAMP app dneighbo: it's newbie city in gnue technically you should have to know SQL