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<dneighbo> nickr you around?
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<nickr> yea
<nickr> hrm, sobedoy surfing my docustore spec?
<nickr> hrm, aol
<nickr> odd
<dneighbo> rock
<dneighbo> you mentioned my cyberblade would work with another driver better?
<dneighbo> like the VESA or something
<dneighbo> cna you give me more information?
<nickr> VESA is the driver you should use
<nickr> I'm not sure HOW to use it
<dneighbo> bumber
Nick change: |Yurik| -> Yurik
<dneighbo> Bear with us: We've outgrown our current server setup, as was apparent early this evening when the load was above 80.00. Unfortunately, MySQL ceases to function properly when the load gets above 25 or so. Please bear with us as we deal with these growing pains and consider a new setup.
<dneighbo> can we save that for the MySQL hall of shame :)
<nickr> haha
<dneighbo> this was the site that got me to try fluxbox (which i really like)
<dneighbo> its almost like desqview
<dneighbo> in its simplicity
<nickr> gross
<dneighbo> dude the free vs open vs closed debate burst on our lug list
<dneighbo> i stayed shut up but finally responded to several of them as i couldnt handle the gross lies any longer
<dneighbo> i have no problems with people having opinions
<dneighbo> but when people just start spilling out right FUD
<dneighbo> > I read as much as I could stand of the gnu philosophy.  In essence it
<dneighbo> > says I am NOT FREE to own what I create but everyone else is FREE to
<dneighbo> > consume and take the fruits of my labor without compensating me at
<dneighbo> > all. It reads very communistic.   NO THANKS!!!!
<nickr> I find theres FUD on all sides of debates like that
<dneighbo> for example
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<dneighbo> i still cant find anywhere in GNU anything where it says one is not free to own what they create?
<dneighbo> ;)
<nickr> They just say its unethical to restrict other people's freedoms
<nickr> to you things
<dneighbo> well its not even that
<dneighbo> they dont tell you crap about what you write
<dneighbo> i.e. they dont tell microsoft they MUST write free software
<nickr> No
<nickr> of course not
<dneighbo> they say its socially WRONG to write prop software
<nickr> but they say 'we believe that its unethical for microsoft to write nonfree software'
<dneighbo> but no where do they say you must write freesoftware
<dneighbo> and certainly they dont say if you write free software that you dont own it and you have no rights :)
<dneighbo> which was what this guy was saying
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> that the GPL demands you give up all rights to your software
<dneighbo> which is just insane
<dneighbo> the GPL in fact RELIES on the fact that you own copyright :)
<nickr> yep
<nickr> people miss that a lot I find
<dneighbo> well thats why i had to interject
<dneighbo> as blatant falsehoods just hurt the community
<nickr> well they are widely held falsehoods
<dneighbo> and i told him that, i said look if you wnat to say you dont liek the gpl, you think its communist hippies, you think it sucks commercially fine those are opinons
<dneighbo> but please dont state misnomers as fact
<nickr> I don't think thats the correct usage of 'misnomer'
Action: nickr gets all pedantic
<dneighbo> you are correct i wanted to say something else i couldnt think of the word
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> and misnomer was thing that came to mind in its place
<nickr> happens to me all the time. :)
<dneighbo> i think i wanting misgivings
<dneighbo> not misnomerss
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<nickr> I think you want falshoods
<dneighbo> nope misgivings
<nickr> hrm
<dneighbo> misgiving: a feeling of doubt or suspicion especially concerning a future event
<dneighbo> i.e. dont state your feeling of doubt as fact
<nickr> maybe you really want 'faulty, poorly reasoned opinions'
<dneighbo> yes this is true
<dneighbo> but misgiving was word i was thinking of then doubted its usage and misnomer popped in its place and right after i typed it i thought that doesnt sound right
<nickr> makes sense
<nickr> I've certainly been there
<nickr> gah
<nickr> tomarrow I have to put my computer and all my shit in a bag and catch a bus to a ferry to a train to a bus to a plane to another plane to yet a third plane to a car to my new life
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<Arturas> Hello
<ra3vat> hello
<Yurik> hi all
<dtm> nickr: what's that all for?!?!
<nickr> dtm: ?
<dtm> nickr: this 'new life' stuff
<Arturas> be back in a minute
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<nickr> dtm: oh, money
<dtm> nickr: hmmmmmmmm
<dtm> well good luck!
<nickr> thanks
<nickr> its just suprising that I have so little time before I'm on the road
<nickr> and then BAM
<nickr> I leav at 11eastern
<nickr> on my trek
<nickr> actually 1050 to catch the 1130 ferry
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<dtm> nickr: so youre' moving to get a better job or what?
<dtm> nickr: from where to where/
<nickr> to get a job
<nickr> from NYC to Bend, OR
<ajmitch> that is a much big distance
<ajmitch> what will ye do there?
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<nickr> programming, support, sysadmin
<nickr> basically all the crap that they don't want the prime people doing :)
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<Arturas> someone knows how to create a new directory in cvs tree?
<ra3vat> make it in local tree
<ra3vat> and then 
<ra3vat> cvs add <this-directory-name>
<Arturas> hm, i tried with import; thank you :)
<Arturas> files in /common/src
<Arturas> that begin with G...
<Arturas> like GBaseApp.py
<Arturas> are for classes?
<ajmitch> seems to be the pattern
<btami> look into common,forms,reports src 
<btami> and you will see the logic
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<Arturas> then how should i call file that will be imported into EVERY .py file?
<Arturas> i thought about something like GImport.py
<Arturas> (in /common/src)
<btami> exactly
<Arturas> fine
<btami> just curious, what is for?
<Arturas> for gettext import
<Arturas> one minute
<Arturas> i can either
<Arturas> 1. in every .py file write 'import gettext..'
<Arturas> 2. write it once in some main, basic file, that is imported in EVERY other .py file
<Arturas> as i haven't found such file
<Arturas> so i create GImport.py
<Arturas> and import it everywhere
<Arturas> this file will have 'gettext import...'
<Arturas> and some other commands can be added
<btami> isn't the GBaseApp.py the main basic ?
<btami> i don't know
<reinhard> Arturas: it's a matter of taste
<reinhard> but I don't like those everywhere-included files
<reinhard> as they tend to become bigger and bigger
<Arturas> GBaseApp is not included in GDebug :(
<reinhard> and all sources import it
<reinhard> so we end up in having a lot of stuff in GImport.py
<Arturas> hm, i can write in every file 2 lines
<reinhard> and it's not clear what really depends on what
<Arturas> but if we have to write plus 1 line sometime in a month?
<Arturas> in every file
<reinhard> i think jamest/jcater should decide on htat
<reinhard> that
<Arturas> i don't like those either
<Arturas> but sometimes it's (?) convenient
<reinhard> as i said it's a matter of taste
<reinhard> i value clearlyness over convenience
<reinhard> clearness
<Arturas> just curious - is it possible to recall some changes from cvsroot?
<btami> i don't know cvs enough, but
<btami> from gnue-commit archive it's easy
<btami> Arthuras: have you read the jamest ideas about
<btami> the big dictionary of i18 texts
<Arturas> on irc?
<btami> yes IIRC
<btami> loading when program starts
<Arturas> do we have so much translatable strings in .py files?
<Arturas> at least in /common there are not 10Mb :)
<Arturas> i don't believe loading will take a lot
<btami> becouse dict reference is cheaper then _(something) 
<Arturas> hm
<Arturas> i have missed somethign
<Arturas> what is dict reference?
<btami> {key,value}
<Arturas> what's it working technique?
<Arturas> it will have to be loaded in RAM before the program starts?
<btami> moment
<btami> IIRC msgDict = {'err1':'some error messsage', 'err2':'some another message'}
<btami> then msg['err1']
<Arturas> what is the principal difference between dict and _("string")
<Arturas> ?
<Arturas> why dict is cheaper?
<btami> exec time
<Arturas> and when we have large dictionary?
<Arturas> does whole dict sit in RAM?
<btami> i dont know the whole size of msgs
<btami> in Abiword this is some KB
<btami> but i don't know there was a conclosion of this idea
<Arturas> we'll ask jamest :)
<btami> will be better :)
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<Arturas> is there any variable defined that holds full path to gnue?
<btami> dontknow
<btami> os.environ['INSTALL_PREFIX'] ?
<Arturas> it gives me path to etc, shared
<Arturas> and if i need to reach /common/translations
<Arturas> by full path
<Arturas> in my system it's in /home/arturas/gnue/common/translations
<Arturas> but in yours? :\
<btami> moment
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<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> (about signoff)
<Arturas> btami: something like $base_gnue/common/translations
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<Arturas> will be back in ~1 hour
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<Arturas> home/arturas/gnue/common/translation
<Arturas> sorry
<dneighbo> before you commit anything talk to jamest/jcater
<dneighbo> my understanding is that it would be part of GBaseApp
<dneighbo> which is an object that can be available to virtually anything
<dneighbo> just because its not in GDebug doesnt mean it cant be
<jamest> dneighbo: he's talking to me
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<dneighbo> ok
<chillywilly> hi
<dneighbo> it would be nice if it were in the main channel so others coudl have input
Action: chillywilly is online at work :)
<dneighbo> and it was logged for the rest to understand, unless of course its going to be over documented elsewhere :)
<chillywilly> wat's going on?
<jamest> he mainly cleared with me what he was going to do so that he could say "James said I could!" later when people freak :)
<chillywilly> whatcha talkin' about?
<dneighbo> jamest: rofl
<chillywilly> translations stuff?
<jamest> though I did stop him from removing all our if username in ['derek','dneighbo']: randomlyBreak() code snippets
<dneighbo> we are teaching him the fine art of laying blame
<dneighbo> i like it :)
<dneighbo> one day when he gets really good he will sucker someone else into making the cvs dir and checking it in
<dneighbo> so he doesnt have to say 'jamest said i could', but instead can say 'i didnt check that in, i think its jamest fault'
<chillywilly> hello, I am nosy wtf are you talking about?
<dneighbo> i18n
<jamest> i18n
<chillywilly> ok
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<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> i must run
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<chillywilly> sup g
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<dneighbo> nickr arent you going to be late?
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<siesel> hi!
<dneighbo> hi jan
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<siesel> _(dneighbo: do you know a good xml editor?)
<siesel> reinhard: sorry. You have to download the xmlrpc library by yourself. There is no debian package for it.
<reinhard> siesel: thanks
<reinhard> no problem
<reinhard> siesel: did you look at the possibility of using the library that is in debian?
<reinhard> i would be happy if gnue (at least the basic system)
<reinhard> would depend only on prerequisites that are in woody
<reinhard> and in rh7.?
<reinhard> etc
<siesel> reinhard: If you wanna use the debian package, you have to wait a moment. It takes some time to get GNURPC use the FAST and GPL'd XMLRPC library.
<reinhard> siesel: you have plans to do so?
<siesel> ... which is in woody.
<siesel> not just plans.
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> sounds very good :)
<reinhard> can you define "some time"
<reinhard> ?
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> the client is working ok,  but the server is a bit difficult
<siesel> some time=x  and  (x<2 weeks) and (x>2 hours) 
<siesel> the orignal server from the py-xmlrpc package (the one in debian) is written i pure c with python bindings.
<siesel> the problem is, that the name of all methods has to be registered in an array accessible by the c part. i.e. no way to do a real dispatch.
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<sledge_> hi there
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<Arturas> hi
[11:58] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<siesel> reinhard: GNURPC xmlrpc plugin add an UID in front of a method call to an dynamic object. ( [2334534].call_method ) ..... you see the problem...
<siesel> hi sledge, hi memmett
<sledge_> hi siesel :)
<siesel> sledge: IKEA ? ;)
<sledge_> i didn't find it, cologne is too big :)
<siesel> sledge: which city do you come from? 
<sledge_> bamberg
<siesel> great city.
<sledge_> well, for an outsider, maybe ;)
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<dneighbo> siesel : emacs is a good xml editor
<dneighbo> i think that conglomerate and xalan/xerces or some name like that is ok too
<dneighbo> though its java
<memmett> anyone tried forms on mac os 9 ?
<dneighbo> i dont think so
<dneighbo> i think its working on osX though
<siesel> xalan?
<sledge_> i prefer sablotron, for its speed
<dneighbo> siesel i dont recall the name its one of the 'x' names from ibm developer works
<dneighbo> sledge_ im talking xml editor not xslt engine
<dneighbo> i might just have the names confused
<sledge_> ah
<sledge_> sorry
<dneighbo> we use sablotron in gnue
<sledge_> pysablot, i've seen the holy source [tm]
<dneighbo> xeena-1.2EA
<siesel> I just tried to use kxmleditor, but its a pain.
<dneighbo> is what i was thinking of siesel 
<dneighbo> xeena xerces xalan they all sound the same :)
<siesel> is there a debian package ?
<dneighbo> at some point i think amaya might be an xml editor also
<dneighbo> not for xeena
<dneighbo> its java
<dneighbo> what are you needing xml editor for?
Action: siesel thinks that i stay with emacs.
<siesel> editing grpc files
<dneighbo> you hvave the major mode for xml/sgml
<dneighbo> siesel : ??
<dneighbo> i would imagine you wouldnt need much xml for grpc
<dneighbo> as the objects are not in xml
<dneighbo> i.e. it should be fairly generic wrapper
<dneighbo> unless things have massively changed
<siesel> they are in xml too.
<dneighbo> hmmm
Action: dneighbo was under impression we were only dealing with transport
<dneighbo> and if you wanted to move objects you had to bundle them and move them
<siesel> Its not about moving objects, just about describing a way to contact them.
<siesel> If a RPC method returns an object, the object is stored on the server. and an handle is send to the client.
<sledge_> xml-editor: gnome-mlview?
<siesel> sledge: debian package?
<sledge_> i think there is one
<sledge_> but i wouldn't bet - try an apt-cache search
<siesel> dneighbo: I thought of using the grpc package to check which methods can be called and which not...
<dneighbo> hmm i think i envisioned things different
<dneighbo> as it will be a real bitch to support all features of every rpc
<sledge_> the question is, does one need all features?
<sledge_> if someone needs specific features, he won't be interested in the other protocols anyway
<dneighbo> well my view was we only use it as a generic transport and little more
<dneighbo> but siesel is much closer to it than I
<dneighbo> so i defer there
<sledge_> hm, i think i get the point
<siesel> I try to get the things running as fast as possible (and with minimal efford) and would be happy about comments after the things are checked in.
<sledge_> it's appserver/ now, not geas/, right?
<sledge_> perhaps i can test it out a bit
<sledge_> i'm anyway a bit stuck with my plans for designer :)
<sledge_> and the grpc is somewhere in common/!?
<siesel> you have to look at the README of /common/src/commdrivers/_test/ or just ask me.
<sledge_> okay, i found it
<sledge_> donuts? *g*
<siesel> eeh, there is a mistake in the README, there is no debian package. (python-xmlrpc is not the right one)
<sledge_> it's called differently
<siesel> really? there are two xmlrpc library for python in debian?
<sledge_> mom, i'll check this out
<sledge_> http://packages.debian.org/testing/interpreters/python-xmlrpc.html
<dneighbo> sledge_ we are trying to call it GNUe Application Server or App Server for short
<dneighbo> but GEAS stood for GNU Enteprise Application Server
<dneighbo> so really its not a 'rename' :)
<dneighbo> its just out growing its childhood nick name ;)
<siesel> sledge: python-xmlrpc is the wrong package. you have to download xmlrpclib.py from pythonware.
<sledge_> ?
<sledge_> why not use python-xmlrpc? (noi)
<Arturas> will return in a minute...
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<dneighbo> why ask why? try bud dry.
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<dneighbo> sorry american commercial humor couldnt be avoided
<btami> hello all
<dneighbo> hi b
<btami> i have problems with www.gnuenterprise.org
<btami> but gnuenterprise.org is OK
<btami> what is the difference ?
<btami> i can't read backlog now :(
<dneighbo> um i have informed jamest of the problem
<dneighbo> but i think i said europe cant hit www.
<dneighbo> and like 10 people from europe said 'i can'
<dneighbo> so it was deemed not a problem
<btami> maybe it is in my side
<dneighbo> maybe do a traceroute on www. and one without and send him the results
<dneighbo> jamest@gnue.org
<btami> i don't know how to do it on w2k
<dneighbo> tracert www.gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> i imagine
<dneighbo> maybe not
Action: dneighbo doesnt run w2k
<dneighbo> i would say open command prompt and go to root dir and type tr <tab>
<btami> ok, ok
<dneighbo> but that only proves w2k is not for me :)
<dneighbo> a. i think the command prompt is gone
<dneighbo> b. they have no idea of a / dir 
<dneighbo> c. tab autocomplete never existed :)
<btami> there is tracert
<btami> i'm trying now
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<sledge_> f**k, mozilla died
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<dneighbo> jackie, siesel, jan
Action: dneighbo hopes there is not a separate personality for each 'nickname' ;)
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<dneighbo> rofl
<btami> dneighbo: tracert logs have sended to jamest
<jeckil> dneighbo: how can i kick myself out?= how can jeckil become siesel again?
<sledge_> dneighbo: i hope his personalities work for the same team :)
<btami> bye  
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<jeckil> rofl
<Arturas> have to go
<Arturas> have a good evening :)
<Arturas> bye
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<jeckil> sledge: do a cvs update and look into appserver/INSTALL if you are still interested in RPC and appserver
<jeckil> reinhard: i've slitted test.py into two files. now everybody can test the appserver without RPC again.
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<siesel> l8r 
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<reinhard> damn i missed siesel
<reinhard> i hate it when i don't get the chance to say thank you :)
<reinhard> hope he reads the log :)
<reinhard> siesel: thank you :)
<sledge_>  bye
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<memmett> hi.. question/problem:  using forms, i can insert new records and everything is cool, but when i reload the records aren't displayed (i can confirm with psql that they were in fact inserted).  when i looked at the debug messages, i see the following sql: "SELECT first,last FROM people WHERE ((1 = 0)) ORDER BY last, first".  the "WHERE ((1 = 0))" is fubar'ed.  i'm i missing something?
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<dneighbo> define: 'when i reload the records'
<dneighbo> what platform, what database, what dbdriver?
<memmett> when i exit forms, and then restart.  i'm using debian, postgresql, psyopg.
<dneighbo> ok when you exit forms and restart do you see ANY records?
<memmett> no, i don't see any records.
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> open the form
<memmett> ok
<dneighbo> then hit
<dneighbo> f8
<dneighbo> then hit
<dneighbo> f9
<dneighbo> you see records now?
<memmett> yes
<dneighbo> ok the way it works is we have inline query building
<dneighbo> so if you hit F8
<dneighbo> then go fill out data in your fields
<dneighbo> then hit F9
<dneighbo> it does a select that uses those values in the where clause
<dneighbo> for example if you hit F*
<dneighbo> er F8
<dneighbo> then went to your first name field
<dneighbo> and put M%
<dneighbo> and hit F9
<dneighbo> it would only bring back records that had a first name starting with M
<memmett> cool
<dneighbo> there is a way in the datasource to make it AUTO query at start up
<dneighbo> in the datasource tag you put
<memmett> ok
<dneighbo> prequery=""
<dneighbo> HOWEVER
<dneighbo> i think its broken right now in cvs (or was a few days ago)
<memmett> not good for lots of records?
<memmett> oh
<memmett> alrighty
<dneighbo> memmett actually even with lots of records its ok
<dneighbo> as we have cache=""
<memmett> right
<dneighbo> which tells how many records to keep in memory
<dneighbo> i think the default is like 5
<memmett> ok
<memmett> thanks for your help
<dneighbo> i highly suggest you play iwth the 'prep query' F8 and 'exec query' F9
<dneighbo> you can do some cool stuff
<dneighbo> you can use the tool bar buttons as well or menu items you arent forced to use the F keys
<memmett> do the "wildcards" depend on which db driver i'm using?
<dneighbo> dont think so
<memmett> cool
<memmett> thanks again
<dneighbo> no problem
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<memmett> it'd be really cool if we could put regexp's in the fields, but i guess that isn't standard SQL.. oh well
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<Mr_You> re
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<Ford_> You're all gnuE developers ?
<chillywilly> some more than others ;)
<Ford_> i see... I was implementing sth similiar like that XML Form Framework in Java and am very curious about these GnuE libs as we now have also a lot of C++ developers
<Ford_> I think I might use it to build frontends for an enterprise resource planing system but I am unsure yet
<chillywilly> well I think we are sort of an ERP project
<Ford_> yes I've seen a lot of modules that make up an erp
<Ford_> but yet it lacks some vital elements
<Ford_> so I thought about using the Form/Frontend Framework for TODAY only, 1yr later this might look different
<chillywilly> we could always use more help ;)
<Ford_> the biggest problem sure is the administrative accounting
<Ford_> and the localized tax law
<chillywilly> see we are building the tools first...packages are also in parallel development, but that app server is now being redone so package development is sorta at a stand still
<chillywilly> we do have an accounting package
<chillywilly> er, one in the works
<chillywilly> a *design* if you will
<Ford_> ok
<Ford_> in germany, accounting software has to be certified
<Ford_> that's another problem
<Ford_> of course we could write our accounting software ourselves... but the certify from the government costs more than buying an accounting software
<chillywilly> ok
<Ford_> How many people take part in the development ?
<chillywilly> at least 6 or 7 people
<Ford_> that's a good kick-off team, but for a championship you should find also some people for the mercantile part of the software
<Ford_> I like the framework as far as I've seen it though
<Ford_> if it would only be completed yet :-)
<Ford_> I've seen that Performance Champion is working on it
<chillywilly> who?
<Ford_> Sponsors->Performance Champion->Management Consultants, etc
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<siesel> hi!
<Ford_> is there any complete overview of gnuE, to learn about the complete architecture which you're planing? are there any project plans, timelines ?
<chillywilly> well their used to be architecture guides but they are old
<chillywilly> forms has a technical reference and user guide
<chillywilly> geas is being reworked and a draft architecture giude is in cvs
<Ford_> what project are you working on right now ?
<chillywilly> reinhard has some docs for geas in http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~reinhard/
<chillywilly> I am working on the geas architecture
<dneighbo> Ford_ actually there are 6 or so core folks
<dneighbo> but as of late i think we have nearly 40 people that have copright assignment that can or have contributed on some level
<dneighbo> i believe we have several hundred folks following the mailing lists and such
<dneighbo> and certainly more nameless ones that keep in touch via GNUe KC
<dneighbo> hmm actually there are 398 people on the main list
<Ford_> I am very interested in that project
<Ford_> A workflow server?
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> we will have GNUe Workflow eventually, its not a current focus however
<Ford_> it is in the overview image for the geas
<dneighbo> we will have it, just its not current focus
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<Ford_> what could I do with GEAS right now?
<dneighbo> version 1 is usable but not optimal
<dneighbo> thus why we are refactoring it
<dneighbo> in the form of a rewrite
<Ford_> what kind of application server is it? 
<dneighbo> you could certainly help with that process
<Ford_> I won't leave you that fast :)
<dneighbo> the best thing to do is to read teh link chillywilly gave earlier :)
<dneighbo> basically its middleware
<dneighbo> in the sense that it provides rpc communication to clients
<Ford_> i see
<dneighbo> and allows business logic to sit on it
<dneighbo> instead of in the client or as triggers/stored procs in the db
<dneighbo> it will also quite likely offer relational to object mappings
<Ford_> this is almost exactly that what I am working and planning on right now
<chillywilly> join in the funt hat is GNUe :)
<chillywilly> fun that
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> gnurpc is moving along well as far as i can tell
<dneighbo> as 2 or 3 folks ahve shown interested
<dneighbo> and taken jcater's 'demo' or proof of concept and started to build on it
<Mr_You> cool
<dneighbo> i know reinhard started some work too last week, but not entirely sure what it was (i think just starting to get some of teh precursory stuff checked in for a base)
<dneighbo> since the idea is to reuse much of common
<dneighbo> once the ball is 'rolling' it should come along rather quickly
<Ford_> do you have kind of a product matrice ?
<Mr_You> good question
<Mr_You> ;-)
<siesel> dneighbo: the client for the gpl'd xmlrpc library will be checked in, in the next hour! jekil and jan helped me alot. ;)
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<dneighbo> rofl
<Ford_> So that you could bring products into correlation to each other, for example for pc configurations or car configurations, spare-parts management etc
Action: dneighbo wonders if we need an assignment from each personality or only physical bodies
<siesel> dneigbo: do you know something about forking in combination with threads?
Action: siesel don't speak of multi threaded personalitys now.
<dneighbo> um not much on unix
<siesel> just because i open a thread for each server and it works ok. But if i want to fork everything into the background .... the threads are stoping
<dneighbo> if its remotely as horrid as threading model of COM, i would run like hell
<siesel> ./fork/ fork the whole server process into background/
<siesel> no its just a lokal server app.
<chillywilly> if you run it with and &?
<chillywilly> a/and/an
<chillywilly> how do you put it in the background?
<chillywilly> how are you...I should say
<siesel> with: pid = os.fork() if pid != 0:sys.exit(0)
<siesel> oh, problem solved.  I had to create new threads after the forking...
<dneighbo> hmm no jamest or jcater....
<dneighbo> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/analysis.txt
<dneighbo> i wonder if output like this is helpful or not
<chillywilly> threads get associated with the process that they are executing in ;)
<chillywilly> if it goes bye bye then the threads go bye bye
<siesel> yeah, but a fork should be a real fork, with all the threads and so...
<chillywilly> true
<dneighbo> like we really give a fork ;)
<chillywilly> er, but isn't that an execve you're thinking of?
<chillywilly> or one of the exec* calls
<chillywilly> nevermind that isn't true either ;P
<chillywilly> hmm, stale info lock made apt-get not work
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> feeakin' a
<siesel> dneighbo, chilly: can i move files between directorys in the CVS?
<chillywilly> sure but then you need to add it and commit it
<chillywilly> and delete and remove the other one
<siesel> dneighbo, chilly: can i create symbolic links to directorys in the CVS?
<chillywilly> symbolic links don't work
<chillywilly> what is it that you want to do?
<siesel> sniff
<chillywilly> bbias
<siesel> move commdrivers/xmlrpc to commdrivers/pw_xmlrpc 
<siesel> and if there are symb. links, i put the gpl'd xmlrpc stuff into py_xmlrpc and create a link from xmlrpc to py_xmlrpc
<chillywilly> then you need to make the dir and move and add and commit all the files and dirs
<dneighbo> i think you can jamest or such do that on the cvs side
<dneighbo> but you cant do it with the client
<chillywilly> yeam they can hack the repository
<dneighbo> unless you do a cvs add pw_xmlrpc
<dneighbo> then cvs commit
<chillywilly> and move it all by hand
<chillywilly> add and commit all files/dirs
<chillywilly> big pain
<chillywilly> ;P
<siesel> :( sniff
<chillywilly> I would bug jamest to fix it for you on the server ;)
<siesel> yeah. but then i have to wait, and i want to put it in now and go to sleep.
Action: siesel is pulling his COMMIT gun.
<chillywilly> oh shit
Action: chillywilly runs
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> brb
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<siesel> l8r
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<chillywilly> weeee
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<dneighbo> hi gontran_lurk 
<dneighbo> chillywilly i have a suprise for you
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/
<dneighbo> a documented common (well kind of)
<gontran_lurk> <whispers>hi
<dneighbo> wassup
<dneighbo> i almost unsubscribed from the plug list the other day
<gontran_lurk> <whispering>I'm lurking.
Nick change: gontran_lurk -> gontran
<dneighbo> its too hard for me not to go off the people there :)
<gontran> I'm thinking of using procmail to filter Tom A. noise.
<gontran> I thought you excercised due restraint :)
<dneighbo> i was overly rude, which is bad
<dneighbo> but i will say i wanted to be a LOT worse
<gontran> nah.  i didn't notice
<dneighbo> i just go nuts when people just spew lies
<gontran> his response to me only left a couple places to go -- none of which belonged on public record.
<dneighbo> i ahve no problem arguing/debating
<dneighbo> and opinions are good to have and debate
Action: gontran nods
<dneighbo> but every part of a debate requries bring suporting arguments
<dneighbo> and when teh supporting aruments are opinions
<gontran> that would require cogitation
<gontran> on the part of the other party
<dneighbo> yet presented as fact its irrating
<gontran> <in italian thug voice>So do yous wanna find outs where this guy livs?
<gontran> oooh Happydoc
<gontran> saw it used by Twisted folks
<gontran> so pyncurses hasn't been maintained in over a year on sourceforge, is there any use for it in gnue (anywhere) currently?  
<gontran> or what was the vision for it's inclusion?
<dneighbo> good question :)
<dneighbo> let me give you history
Action: gontran get's out paper and pencil
<dneighbo> we had curses working originally with pyncures
<gontran> w00t curses
<gontran> oops sorry :)
<dneighbo> the maintainer of pyncurses actually was doing gnue developemnt for a bit
<dneighbo> he stopped doing gnue and pyncurses at same time
<dneighbo> we were going to 'adopt' it, but then found native curses in python and switched to that
<dneighbo> so we ahd
<dneighbo> -u pytext
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> -u text
<dneighbo> for ui modes
<dneighbo> recently we have found nstti
<gontran> hmm. native curses in python
<dneighbo> which is better than both
<dneighbo> it is unmaintained
<dneighbo> we dopted it and its inour cvs tree
<gontran> wow
<dneighbo> jamest almost has it working
<dneighbo> with forms
<dneighbo> probably not this releasse but next
<dneighbo> it will be the default 'test' ui
<dneighbo> however at anypoint
<dneighbo> someont could revive the pyncurses
<dneighbo> or native curses drivers
<dneighbo> so the simple answer is 
<gontran> would there be any, ahem, strategic advantage to either pyncurses or the native drivers?
<dneighbo> it had a place in gnue, and if anyone wanted it then certainly theycould revive it :)
<dneighbo> well pyncurses lacked to much
<dneighbo> and was a dependency and not maintained
<dneighbo> native was good (no dependency) but had very limited functionality
<dneighbo> nstti was WAY more advanced
<dneighbo> so it is less work to maintain it
<dneighbo> and add what we need
Action: gontran nods
<dneighbo> than do the same to pyncurses(afarther to go)
<dneighbo> or native (too many politics)
Action: gontran raises eyebrow
<gontran> kool. thx dneighbo
<dneighbo> we certainly would not prevent anyone and would encourage anyone to write the drivers for pyncurses and/or native
<dneighbo> as choices are good :)
<gontran> well, if it's almost there with nstti
<dneighbo> though admittedly it woudl seem like a waste of time
<gontran> that's my assesment
<dneighbo> well hav eto run will be back later surely
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<gontran> is using python 2.2 OK? :)
<gontran> I was told that 2.1 was -fer sure- oK.  Are there issues with 2.2?
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<gontran> I was told that 2.1 was -fer sure- oK.  Are there issues with 2.2?
<gontran> python versions
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<chillywilly> gontran: hehe, LUG list flame wars are the best ;)
<chillywilly> we have this BSD biggot on ours who just loves to hang out on the list to talk crap about GNU/Linux
<chillywilly> he's a real nuisance
<dtm> chillywilly: haha
<chillywilly> and also his second favorite thing to do is bash the GPL
<chillywilly> "GPL gives tools power over people"
<ajmitch> afternoon all
<chillywilly> sup niggie
Action: ajmitch troutslaps chillywilly for that remark
<chillywilly> uh, that's just ghetto talk not need to get your panties in a bunch
<chillywilly> s/not/no
<ajmitch> and i don't live in a ghetto
<ajmitch> i live in a hole :)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> dude the GNU stdc++ lib is cary
<chillywilly> scary even
<ajmitch> i blame the users
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> I need to make some thread safe streams for GNU Common C++
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<SachaS> hi
<chillywilly> howdy
<SachaS> i guess everyone read that MS wants to buy Navision, a danish Enterprise Resource System company.
<SachaS> for 1.2 billion us dollar.
<ajmitch> bother
<chillywilly> nope, didn't hear that
<chillywilly> that doesn't sound so good
<SachaS> MS wants to enter ERP market. I read an article earlier sometimes.
<chillywilly> blah
<SachaS> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/hps-30.04.02-000/ (in german :)
<chillywilly> I wlays see that stupid enterprise software by M$ commercial on TV
<chillywilly> always
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<ajmitch> hi jbailey
<jbailey> ajmitch, hello.
<gontran> chillywilly: heh, yeah! Local FIRE!  
<gontran> What about IBM and somw british ERP teaming up to do ti for gnu/linux platform
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<chillywilly> let's hope that's better than M$ and some danish ERP comapny ;)
<SachaS> how about gnuenterprise?
<gontran> I hope it doesn't put <gasp> pressure on the gnue team.  <concern>
Action: gontran goes and hunts for link or article
<ajmitch> gnue team? they're all off drinking beer & munching on donuts and/or pizza
<chillywilly> who drinks the beer?
<SachaS> lol ajmitch. gontran: do they want to release under gpl?
<chillywilly> mmmmm, beeeer
<SachaS> gontran: or only binaries on gnu/linux
Action: chillywilly struggles to keep his eyes open
<gontran> SachaS: not sure.  Just found the link
<gontran> http://list.ftech.net/pipermail/gllug/2002-April/021990.html
<chillywilly> must...read...c++ annotations
<gontran> Can someone tell me if it's safe to use Python 2.2 (sorry for faq)
<chillywilly> we have had issues with it
<SachaS> gontran: MS wants to buy a danish ERP company: 
<chillywilly> i18n issues I think
<SachaS> gontran: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/hps-30.04.02-000/ (in german :)
<chillywilly> er, actaully unicode issues
Action: gontran looks for babelfish link
<gontran> SachaS: looking it up now.
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<dneighbo> wassup jbailey
<dneighbo> and rest
Action: dneighbo taps nickr
<dneighbo> is that really you?
<jbailey> notmuch.  I was trying about 30 minutes ago to figure out WTF they do to compile this bloody thing.
<dneighbo> goats
<dneighbo> lots of goats
<dneighbo> you have a sacrificial knife
<dneighbo> and a Unix altar right?
<dneighbo> i can supply the goats
<jbailey> No, just a Eunic alter, cause my the sacrificial knife.
<jbailey> er...
<jbailey> The fundamental problem is that the files aren't exactly C files.
<jbailey> They contain C code.
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/common.dia
<dneighbo> ERD diagram of common for chillywilly
<chillywilly> how do you make an ERD diagram of code?
<chillywilly> that's a mess
<chillywilly> they are all overlapping each other
<chillywilly> btw, that's a UML diagram ;)
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<chillywilly> all we really need is to embed some comments/docs into the code and we can have ourselves api documentation that can be generated
<ajmitch> pydoc!
<chillywilly> there ya go ;)
<chillywilly> does doxygen do python?
<ajmitch> nah, why would you want to use doxygen anyway?
<chillywilly> cause I like it
<chillywilly> anyway, whats does hasattr() do?
<chillywilly> e.g., if not (hasattr(driver,'CLIENT') and driver.CLIENT):
<ajmitch> dunno, look it up :P
<chillywilly> I don't think I like the fact that in gnurpc we call the various rcp methods 'Interfaces'
<chillywilly> we should call them transports or something like that
<chillywilly> and an interface would be the exposed methods, imho
<chillywilly> a/and/as
<chillywilly> ah well just being picky
<ajmitch> ok, change it then
<chillywilly> nah, he calls them 'services' and uses transport elsewhere
<chillywilly> I don't want to confuse the terminology
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<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly>     # Sigh... what kind of drugs was I on to volunteer for RPC abstraction?
<chillywilly>   def getObject(self,name):
<chillywilly>     return obj
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> who did that?
<chillywilly> jcater
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> poor jcater
<ajmitch> t3rmin4t0r was asking bout gnurpc on the dotgnu list, too
<dneighbo> happydoc is suitable replacement to doxygen
<dneighbo> and yes its UML thats what i meant to say
<dneighbo> it might be ugly but instead of crying
<dneighbo> download it and make it pretty
<chillywilly> no one was crying
<chillywilly> and I am about to go to bed
<dneighbo> im giving you crap like you do to me 
<chillywilly> crap to you man
<ajmitch> heh
Action: gontran making it purty
Action: chillywilly thwaps dneighbo with a sea bass
<chillywilly> god this code makes no fucking sense
Action: ajmitch thwaps chillywilly
<gontran> heh _cSection
<chillywilly> python is like elusive man because you can't really figure out what type a member variable of class is there's not declaration or anything
<chillywilly> s/not/no
<chillywilly> wee need an IRC driver for gnurpc ;)
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<ajmitch> hello jcater
<chillywilly> soeak of the devil
<chillywilly> speak
<jcater> you spake of me?
<chillywilly> sheeeit niggie you should be in bed ;)
<jcater> that can't be good
<jcater> yeah, well
<jcater> it's Insomniac Theatre in #gnuenterprise
<chillywilly> I was reading gnurpc code
<chillywilly> but I am so fscking confused
<jcater> I'm sorry
<jcater> doubly so
--- Wed May  1 2002