[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<ajmitch> don't blame the code or yourself, jcater
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Action: jcater prods dneighbo
<chillywilly> yea, I am just stooopid
<dneighbo> ouch
<dneighbo> you see my two goodies
<dneighbo> on documenting common?
<jcater> ?
<jcater> how's my XSLT coming?
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/common.dia
<dneighbo> UML
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> you gonna make me install dia?
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/
<dneighbo> api docs
<chillywilly> why is there always a proxy object involved?
<jcater> um
<jcater> to proxy the requests
<jcater> there may or may not be a proxy object
<jcater> with oo-aware transports
<jcater> (i.e., corba)
<chillywilly> you don't need one?
<jcater> ?
<jcater> you just asked me why is there always one
<jcater> and I said there doesn't always have to be one
Action: jcater is confused
<jcater> maybe it's the benadryl
<jcater> or the tequila
<jcater> or the heavily glazed donuts
<chillywilly> you didn't finish your statement
<jcater> I was making a statement?
Action: jcater is studying the dia of common
<chillywilly> [00:06:34] <jcater> there may or may not be a proxy object
<chillywilly> [00:06:39] <jcater> with oo-aware transports
<chillywilly> [00:06:42] <jcater> (i.e., corba)
<jcater> trying to figure out what I'm looking at
<jcater> chillywilly: because in corba's case, I think it'd handle the proxying for us
<jcater> or at least the concept of proxying
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> I didn't get far into corba
<jcater> so that may not be a fair statement
Action: jcater hasn't fully grokked corba
<jcater> wow... there's a lot of stuff in that common.dia
<chillywilly> corba provides client stubs
<chillywilly> what would you do with being connection to a unix domain socket and a tcp/ip socket at the same time?
<chillywilly> why would someone want that and/or what is that useful for?
<jcater> um
Action: jcater isn't sure what you're looking at
<chillywilly> AsyncSocketServer
<chillywilly>  TODO: This should probably allow you to connect
<chillywilly>     # TODO: to both a Unix-style socket file and to a
<chillywilly>     # TODO: TCP/IP socket simultaneously.
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> a socket file is faster, iirc
<jcater> but you have to be on the same machine
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> i think
<jcater> btw, recalling the Async stuff
<jcater> that's a matter of 2 lines of code
<jcater> so it's not a big deal providing either option
<chillywilly> what do the params look like for tcp/ip and domain socket?
<chillywilly> what's the diff in that dictionary
<chillywilly> { 'socket' : 'x.x.x.x',.... for tcp/ip?
<chillywilly> what does asynchat do for you?
Action: chillywilly asks too many friggin questions
<jcater> chillywilly: I haven't been in there for at least 5 months
<jcater> I don't think the params are defined for those
<chillywilly> for tcp/ip connections?
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> but I think it's like {host: "blah", port: "1111"}
<jcater> etc
<chillywilly> ah yea
<chillywilly> where's the python lib reference?
<chillywilly> the online one
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<chillywilly> I can't find the damn thing
<jcater> http://www.python.org/doc/2.0/lib/lib.html
<chillywilly> thanks
<jcater> I always use the 2.0 version so I don't get myself into trouble :)
<chillywilly> hmmm, ansychat module is not in the python lib?
<jcater> no
<jcater> it's part of medusa
<jcater> which we may bring into our cvs tree (if licensing permits)
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> the same medusa that nautilus uses?
<chillywilly> or did use
Action: jcater isn't familiar w/nautilus
<jcater> but it's the same medusa that Zope and Webware used
<chillywilly> It's also part of the Python Library as of Python-1.5.2, see asyncore.py and asynchat.py]
<chillywilly> I see asyncore in the lib ref
<chillywilly> but no asynchat
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> that confused me too
<dtm> jcater: i forgot; are you a dcl user?
<jcater> ssssh... don't tell my parents
<jcater> dtm: yeah
<dtm> jcater: have you ever used domains?
<dtm> i'm wondering what is separated by a domain
<dtm> i wonder if it separates user accounts
<jcater> dtm: no
<jcater> we're a small operation
<jcater> (3 coders using it)
<jcater> so I don't even know what a domain is conceptually
<jcater> sorry
<chillywilly> I see this trick all the time:
<chillywilly> if __name__ == '__main__':
<chillywilly> wtf does it mean?
<jcater> that section of code will only execute if
<jcater> you directly run that script from the command line
<jcater> e.g., in my FormatMasks
<jcater> I have some of those
<jcater> so I can do
<jcater> python DateMask.py
<jcater> and have test code in that if statement that tests stuff for me
<jcater> but when the module is imported by a gnue tool
<jcater> that if statement doesn't return true
<jcater> so the test code doesn't execute
<jcater> did that make sense?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> it's the main module right?
<chillywilly> that test is
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> e.g., in my DateMask.py file
<jcater> if I do python DateMask.py
<jcater> then __name__ = '__main__'
<chillywilly> basically it's a nice way to add text code for your module
<jcater> if I do 
<jcater> import DateMask
<jcater> then DateMask.__name__ = 'DateMask'
<chillywilly> test
<jcater> that's typically what we use if for
<jcater> although that's not the only logical use
<jcater> e.g.
<jcater> GFClient.py has it iirc
<jcater> so when you run GFClient it creates all the instances, etc
<dtm> chillywilly: can you do be a favor and shave for me?  KTHXBYE ^_^_^_^
<jcater> but later on, GNUe Navigator can import GFClient
Action: dtm donut wanna shave
<jcater> and GNUe Nav can handle setting up the environment
<jcater> but MOST cases it's used for test code
<jcater> must sleep
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<ajmitch> hi psu, ra3vat, bye psu, ra3vat
<psu> well that was short & sweet ;-)
Action: ajmitch is going off to LUG meeting :)
<psu> such a nice polite young man, that ajmitch
<ajmitch> *cough*
<psu> say hi from us ;-)
<ra3vat> hello all 
<ra3vat> :)
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<dtm> ajmitch: yeah say hi
<dtm> psu: btw yeah he's a nice guy.  he's on my "people to not kill" list.
Action: psu submits urgent application to join the list - you never know...
<psu> anyway, work time 
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<dtm> psu:  rofl
<dtm> ;saljfslkjdf
<dtm> maybe we shouldn't tell psu just yet that there is no "people to kill" list  ;)
<dtm> make him think a couple things through first
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<Ford_> good morning
<Ford_> this is a good day for coding some stuff
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<sledge_> hi there
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<sledge_> i saw that il18n made it into cvs
<sledge_> but it doesn't work for me :(
<sledge_> can someone help me?
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<Ford_> dum de dum de dum de dum ......
<jamest> hello
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<^chewie> blah
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<jamest> is cvs down?
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<SachaS_> hi reinhard
<Ford_> Hey reinhard
<reinhard> hello all
<reinhard> Ford_: is your last name "Prefect"?
<reinhard> ;)
<Ford_> reinhard: yep :)
Action: Ford_ shows his towel
<reinhard> cool
<Ford_> I flew over your whitepaper for GEAS yesterday
<reinhard> any comments?
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<Ford_> reinhard: not yet... it's a complex thing
<Ford_> I fell in love with the GnuE efforts as a few days before, I got a project where I have to implement a commercial ERP system with an international working enterprise
<Ford_> I think I might use some GnuE components for the front-end development (that form-thingie)
<reinhard> Ford_: sounds good
<reinhard> especially because Forms is the only _100%_really_ production usable part by now
<reinhard> IMHO of course :)
<Ford_> on may, 15th I'll hand out my concepts ... I will follow any step you'll do in that gnuE development... maybe in 2yrs we'll even switch over to you ?
<Ford_> (except the financial module)
<reinhard> why not the financial module?
<Ford_> due to law issues in germany ... 
<reinhard> i am 100% positive after finishing the financial module we will find someone who approves it in germany very quickly
<Ford_> especially the administrative accounting part costs a lot when you want a certified approve by the financial ministry
<reinhard> are you the one who wrote a mail regarding this issue a few days ago?
<Ford_> didn't wrote a mail, discussed about that yesterday here in the channel
<reinhard> ok then someone else wrote a mail
<reinhard> so you are already two who need that :)
<Ford_> :))
<reinhard> i can imagine well that some companies would pay for that
<Ford_> there're are a bunch of hundreds I guess
<reinhard> if we find only say 20 companies wanting to use GNUe accounting
<reinhard> in germany
<reinhard> and dividing the costs among them
<Ford_> SAP sucks... this is sth every company has learned I guess
<reinhard> it would be doable
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<Ford_> reinhard: that's a good model! 
<Ford_> reinhard: I'll add it up to my concept :)
<reinhard> cool :)
<reinhard> btw that's how free software works imho
<Ford_> yes sponsoring is important
Action: drochaid wonders if jamest is observing the chan
<reinhard> Ford_: where exactly are you from?
<Ford_> reinhard: I live in Giessen, Germany. It's about 80kms north from Frankfurt/Main
<reinhard> will you be in Karlsruhe?
<reinhard> Linuxtag
<Ford_> when is it ?
<reinhard> 6.6. - 9.6.2002
<jamest> drochaid: when I can
<Ford_> reinhard: I'll ask my CEO whether this is possible or not.. are you there as well ? is there a gnuE-exhibition ?
<reinhard> I don't think there will be much GNUe there
<reinhard> but sledge and myself will be at the FSF Europe booth probably
Action: reinhard is from Austria, btw
<Ford_> I don't like exhibitions anyway... they're only good to see the trends reflected... but usually I know the trends prior such an event... so why go there
<reinhard> I like Linuxtag and F.SDEM and the like because you can meet interesting people there
<reinhard> not because of the news you see there
<Ford_> To meet vendors is the interesting part of course
<reinhard> not even vendors
<Ford_> but only on prior invitation
Nick change: SachaS_ -> SachaS
<reinhard> it was very interesting for me for example at F.SDEM to meet Georg Greve, Werner Koch (GnuPG author), Marcus Brinkmann (Hurd Hacker)
<reinhard> and of course SachaS :)
<Ford_> :)
<Ford_> maybe Linuxtag differs from usual "IT-Daya
<Ford_> s"
<SachaS> thanks reinhard. it was a pleasuer for me to meet you :)
<reinhard> anybody know if woody is already released?
<SachaS> woody release delayed.
<Ford_> what's woody (allan) ?
<SachaS> Ford_: debian GNU/Linux distribution version 3.0
<SachaS> Ford_: alias is woody
<reinhard> SachaS: you know new date?
<Ford_> I see
<SachaS> reinhard: www.debianplanet.org is my resource. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2002/debian-devel-announce-200204/msg00020.html is the mail.
<reinhard> thanks
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<reinhard> psu: finally i meet you
<reinhard> congratulations on your 6 months of kc
<reinhard> and 1000 thanks for doing this great thing
<psu> thanks reinhard
<reinhard> i just wanted to say that :)
<psu> of course, I wouldn't do it if I didn't want to ;-)
<psu> I guess the motivations are
Action: dneighbo thinks we shoudl go ahead and let psu believe we dont have ways of forcing him...(evil grin)
<psu> a) fun - even if most of the fun bits of the log never make it into KC as they are off-topic ;-)
<psu> b) I have seriously learned a lot about various "techie" things like appservers, RPC, etc etc
<psu> which will come in useful
<psu> both generally and in my "real" job
<psu> hmm... did we ever resolve that problem that some europeans couldn't see website 
<psu> as now "some europeans" seems to include me...
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<dneighbo> i had someone send jamest traceroutes
<dneighbo> best we can tell 
<dneighbo> gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> www.gnuenterprise.org
<psu> hmm
<psu> trying to ping www. and ash. both resolve to 64.39.200.253
<psu> but I get no packets back
<drochaid> jamest: oops, I forgot to check in to see if you responded ... I just wanted to make sure you know OOo v1.0 has been launched, if you can find a server still accepting connections
<jcater> psu: ICMP is blocked by our firewall
<psu> ah
Action: psu is not quite sure what that means, but it sounds not good
<jcater> it means you can't ping it
<jcater> but you also can't DoS it
<jcater> :)
<jcater> it's a tradeoff
<jcater> but the ip address that it's resolving to is the important thing
Action: psu remebers the urban legend about geeks going up to golfers 
<psu> wearing Ping baseball caps and shouting "ACK!"
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> :)
<jamest> drochaid: I've got the win32, linux binaries already and solaris is at 82%
<nickr> la
<psu> nickr: no, that's only *half* a tellytubby, try again 
<psu> (nint - tinky is also wrong)
<psu> btw, Kernel Cousins has several links to your DocStore proposals
<psu> so if you are getting unexpected visitors in the log,
<psu> probly my fault
<nickr> ahh that explains it
<drochaid> jamest: I guess you knew then :) what server did you connect to? I've tried them all 2 or 3 times already :-/
<jamest> www.planetmirror.com
<jamest> but
<jamest> since I'm a super swell guy
<jamest> what do you need? win32 or linux?
<jamest> www.math.ksu.edu/~jamest/OOo_1.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz
<drochaid> :-D
<jamest> www.math.ksu.edu/~jamest/OOo_1.0.0_Win32Intel_install.zip
<jamest> i have tested neither of them yet though
<jamest> so for all I know the d/ls are corrupt
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<drochaid> I'm wondering if getting a corrupt download is better than getting frustrated just trying to find a server that will let me collect it ;-)
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<jamest> i guess they work
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<dneighbo> gnugo? isnt that a program
<nickr> yea
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<nickr> dpm
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> I'm paranoid, someone I don't know is surfing my archive
<dneighbo> well apparently they know you
<drochaid> nickr: does that person in the car over the road have a video cam trained on you?
<drochaid> that lamp even *looks* like a mic
<dneighbo> jamest/jcater has any work been done sicne 3/7 on master detail?>
<jcater> um
<jcater> I can't remember what I had for dinner last night
<jcater> much less whether m/d has changed in the last 2 months
<dneighbo> ok maybe a question is better
<dneighbo> if i have a master with fields [DeptNum] and [DeptName]
<dneighbo> and say detail
<dneighbo> that has fields [DeptNum] and [WorkingTitle]
<dneighbo> where DeptNum is the key
<dneighbo> in a form i show
<dneighbo> deptnum and deptname of the master as normal
<dneighbo> and working title as a grid
<dneighbo> what would expect to happen if
<dneighbo> i hit f8
<dneighbo> then put a dept num in the masterdeptnum field
<dneighbo> and then a title in teh workingtitle detail field and hit f9?
Action: dneighbo is used to not beign able to 'query' detail, but i recalled we could now, so figured i would give it a whirl
<dneighbo> i figured if i put a dept num in master and title in detail
<dneighbo> i would get only that title for that dept (or that masters children)
<dneighbo> HOWEVER
<dneighbo> what it did was query just the entire detail table (regardless of master)
<dneighbo> is that what is 'expected' ?
<jcater> I do know query by detail is not supported
<dneighbo> or is this a bug?
<jcater> we haven't implemented it yet
<dneighbo> if its a bug has it been fixed
<dneighbo> jcater: then we broke it
<dneighbo> as it used to give you an ERROR if you querired by ddetail
<dneighbo> not an error but a message saying 'thats not supported'
<dneighbo> if its not supported we need to reinstate the message
<dneighbo> imho
<jcater> that error must be before the DataObject rewrite
<jcater> but I agree, I suppose
<dneighbo> probably
<jcater> so, we gonna see a patch tomorrow?
<dneighbo> jcater: the reason being if we dont give message people will complain its broken :) easier to put message saying its not supported
Action: dneighbo is REALLY suprised
<dneighbo> as prequery and this error message were two things jamest added orginally from his users complaints
<dneighbo> both hav ebeen broken since rewrite and he hasnt said anything :)
<dneighbo> i started to redo prequery as WE REALLY need it
<dneighbo> and it should be default behavior (imho) as its a major user stumbling block
<dneighbo> EVERY user that comes inhere with a new install asks how come i cant see my data
<dneighbo>  :)
<dneighbo> but you told me to hold off on it
<dneighbo> you wanted to talk to jamest
<jamest> um
<jamest> prequery is in there
<jamest> i think
<dneighbo> i will gladly look into patching
<dneighbo> but the prequery stuff was completely gutted (as in no longer referenced anywhere) i started to look at where it might be best put it, but didnt look right
<jamest> um
<jamest> i has to work
<jamest> i = is
<jamest> just a sec
<dneighbo> hmm does that mean i is really is is?
<dneighbo> reinhard: i = is
<dneighbo> er re : 
<dneighbo> darn bitchx even tries to finish my sentences
<jamest> wow
<jamest> i guess it is borked
<jamest> i can't believe no one complained
<jamest> sigh
Action: jamest hides
<jamest> i don't have time to dig in now but prequery on datasources does work or all my dropdowns would have broken
<jamest> it's not displaying though
<jamest> unless someone did something fancy to make prequery work only with dropdowns which I doubt
<jcater> no
<jcater> prequery pre-queries the datasource
<jcater> but hasn't pre-filled blocks since our DataObject rewrite
<dneighbo> jamest: i have complained for a few months :)
<dneighbo> i just thought the 'syntax' changed
<dneighbo> i didnt look at the code (as it wasnt critical to me)
<jcater> dneighbo: he has complained
<jcater> err, jamest
<dneighbo> until looking into datasource trigger stuff
<dneighbo> then jcater said where are you getting that this ever existed :)
<jamest> ah, well, I must be really be getting good at forgetting dneighbo's issues
Action: jamest pats self on back...."keep up the good work buddy!"
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> jamest: thats why it wasnt 'critical' as it didnt break my dropdowns :)
<dneighbo> i have been meaning to make a dcl ticket (so thats my bad)
<dneighbo> i will do so for the the prequery
<dneighbo> and for the 'query detail not supported' issue
<jamest> ok
<jamest> fwiw - the query detail not supported is sporatic
<jamest> as I saw it broke once, tried it at home and all was fine so I let it go
<dneighbo> you mean the error message?
<jamest> yes
<jcater> oh, rock!
<jcater> my Intel Microscope came in today
<Mr_You> re
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<siesel> hi !
<jamest> yo jan
<reinhard> hey siesel
<reinhard> hi joev
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<siesel> reinhard: I saw your message on the log. Does the rpc code worked for you?
Action: reinhard sighs silently
<reinhard> haven't tried
<reinhard> and as you added an non-rpc test.py i think i won't
<reinhard> sorry
<reinhard> still swamped with work
<reinhard> but got a light at the end of the tunnel
<reinhard> (yeah i know i said that several times before)
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> i allways don't know if there is light on the other side, so i don't like to go into tunnels. ;)
<siesel> this is a reason, why I will never write a ssl-tunnel for RPC. ;)
<reinhard> lol
Action: siesel is thinking of what will come first: an app_server_cvs_test script, automaticly build by setup-cvs.py or the light at the end of reinhards tunnel.
<reinhard> siesel: i saw you changed the field name geas_list.conditions to _conditions
<reinhard> (and others)
<reinhard> and added methods like setConditions
<reinhard> is this because gnurpc only handles methods but doesn't handle fields of objects?
<siesel> yes.
<siesel> it can handle fields also (not implemented yet), 
<siesel> but i thought of the methods are kind of requirements for an 'object' so I just added them.
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> you have any strong feeling about
<reinhard> doFoo(bar,baz)
<reinhard> vs.
<reinhard> do_foo (bar, baz)
<reinhard> ?
<siesel> I had to programm some java ... so I write much doFoo(bla,bla) at the moment.
<reinhard> does java require that?
<siesel> but i think both ways are ok. its just important to be consequent
<siesel> no, but the whole class library is written like that...
<reinhard> ah
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<gontran> lo
<reinhard> siesel: forms e.g. seems to be doFoo(bar, baz)
<reinhard> gontran: hi
<gontran> :)
<siesel> reinhard: so what do you think? go _ing or go Ing?
<reinhard> siesel: gnu standard is actually do_foo (bar, baz)
<reinhard> i'm not sure what i should value higher
<reinhard> gnu standard or consistency with forms and common
<reinhard> plus actually i find do_foo (bar, baz) most readable
<dneighbo> it should be
<dneighbo> doFoo(bar, baz)
<dneighbo> in code camel case i think is preferred
<dneighbo> in table definitions _ is preferred
<dneighbo> hi gontran 
<gontran> hiya
<gontran> workin on common.dia
<siesel> hmmm. I think reinhard is right, do_foo (bar, baz) is more readable, ... but it uses one byte more in the code than doFoo (bar, baz).... so the real performance freaks ;) use the last one
<reinhard> siesel: rofl
Action: siesel is a real performance freak
<jamest> why do that when
<jamest> a() is valid
<gontran> dneighbo: if you had a look, is that were you wanted it to go?
<jamest> b()
<jamest> c()
<jamest> d()
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> siesel: actually we are talking 2 issues here
<jamest> 1 letter function names rock!
<reinhard> doFoo() vs doFoo () (space before "(")
<reinhard> and do_foo vs doFoo
<jcater> or better yet
<jcater> _()
<jcater> :P
<reinhard> what do we need function names for?
<siesel>  _(do_Foo)(_(bar),_(bars))
<reinhard> doesn't python have "goto"?
<jcater> yeah
<siesel> rofl
<jcater> python tells me to goto hell all the time
<jcater> or so it seems
<reinhard> lol
<dneighbo> reinhard: i think funtionname ()
<dneighbo> is UGLY and non cohesive
<reinhard> siesel: anyway, at the moment we two are as inconsistent as we could be
<dneighbo> funtionName vs function_name i have no opinion on really
<reinhard> dneighbo: functionname(one, two) is illogical imho
<dneighbo> but i think its 'the new way' to do
<dneighbo> camel case
<reinhard> either functioname (one, two) or functionname(one,two)
<reinhard> and i have learned the latter is much harder to read than the other
<dneighbo> i think since common, forms, reports, designer are written
<reinhard> learned == from my own code :(
<dneighbo> rather than go and and change
<dneighbo> lets use what they do
Action: dneighbo isnt certain what that is
<dneighbo> i imagine
<dneighbo> functionName(foo, bar) or functionName(foo,bar)
<jcater> I think I do functionName(foo, bar) out of habit
<jcater> but I have no clue where I picked up that habit
<reinhard>     fileHandle = openResource(processFile)
<reinhard>     nav = loadProcesses (fileHandle)
<reinhard>     fileHandle.close()
<siesel> dneighbo: whats about a small script to change all camel case to function_name style in forms designer...)?
Action: dneighbo know he does functionname(foo, bar)
<dneighbo> as its the most readable, whether its illogical or no :)
<reinhard> is an excerpt from GNClient.py
<jcater> reinhard: what?!?!?
<jcater> you were expecting consistency>
<jcater> ?
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> jcater: no
<reinhard> not me
<dneighbo> i think all this is bs
<dneighbo> we can argue forever on it
<dneighbo> its the classic my penis is longer than yours debate
<dneighbo> i will say i havent seen any function_name
<dneighbo> only functionName
<dneighbo> in current code
<dneighbo> so thtat should be the standard
<dneighbo> whether its
<dneighbo> name ( or name(
<reinhard> i think we can agree on camel case because this is important to agree
<reinhard> imho f () vs f() isn't _that_ important
<dneighbo> or name(value, value) name(value,value)
<dneighbo> i say who gives a shit
<reinhard> because it's not "exported" outside the code
<dneighbo> even its is different in the smae code
<dneighbo> a space difference isnt going to be so vile that people will die
<dneighbo> the important part is the name
<dneighbo> as that is what will be 'referenced'
<reinhard> dneighbo: yes that's what i wanted to say
<dneighbo> reinhard then we agree :)
<reinhard> ok
Action: reinhard is going to change his code then
<dneighbo> reinhard but we reserve the right to say field_name is preferred over fieldName in database schemas :)
<reinhard> sure
<reinhard> iAmHappyWithEverythingYouWant
<dneighbo> rOFL
<reinhard> howeverIDontThinkThisIsBetter
<dneighbo> youWillGetUsedToIt
<jamest> youHadBetterAnywayCauseIWouldCurlUpAndDieIfIEverHadToChangeTheWayIDoAnything
<jamest> :)
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> my users
<jamest> they found issues in forms
<jamest> how dare they
<dneighbo> for chilly:
<dneighbo> JAVA DEVELOPER CONNECTION PROGRAM (JDC): If you could start again, would you make everything an object rather than the current int, boolean, byte, etc, viz-a-viz object disconnect?
<dneighbo> JAMES GOSLING: No, actually I tend to go the other way, which is to say, a way to make classes behave more like primitives, so that they can be optimized and become extremely efficient, and maybe have a way to do autoboxing so that they sort of go back and forth between being objects. There are a lot of subtle problems around autoboxing that always make me nervous, and the big one being questions around identity. 
<jamest> hmmmm, nothing about making it suck less?
Action: jamest runs
<dneighbo> well after i pasted that
<dneighbo> i started thinking
<dneighbo> do i want to admit to agreeing with teh maker of that evil called java :)
<reinhard> siesel: i have committed the this_one to thisOne change
<jamest> l8r everyone
<reinhard> can you please test whether the rpc sample still works?
<reinhard> l8r jamest
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<siesel> ok. one moment
Action: siesel is wondering about a very slow connection to cvs at subversions.gnu.org
<reinhard> anyway
<reinhard> i've updated the api doc on ash, too
<siesel> cool.
<siesel> GEAS.grpc and INSTALL changed too. rpc demo is working again.
<reinhard> thanks
<reinhard> night all
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<siesel> night
<gontran> allright kids: get your semi-beautified common.dia at http://www.gontran.net/pub/gnue/common.dia
Nick change: gontran -> gontran_food
<siesel> cool. I want to have a poster of it.
<siesel> hey jcater: there is even an bakery on it
<siesel> ;)
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<dneighbo> siesel what is GEAS.grpc?
<dneighbo> i.e. what is a .grpc file?
<siesel> a description of an RPC connection. (in XML)
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> im just nervous that specs are being made w/o any formal review
<dneighbo> i assume a .grpc is something custom to gnue?
<siesel> yep.
<dneighbo> is it a replacemetn to a gcd?
<dneighbo> or is it merely a connection?
<jcater> dneighbo: it's more like an IDL
<dneighbo> if its a connection type of thing
<dneighbo> where does it really belong
<dneighbo> what should we name it
<dneighbo> etc etc
<siesel> it is closely connected to gcds, because some parts are similar.
<dneighbo> these are not describing objects though right?
<dneighbo> are they like the old geas' base idl
<dneighbo> where you really only have like one
<jcater> it defines what methods we want exposed, so each "Server" app will have a grpc file
<jcater> yeah, like the old geas.idl files
<jcater> only generalized
<jcater> this grpc is something I was toying with
<dneighbo> and will be different for each provider?
Action: jcater wasn't really ready for gnurpc to go prime time yet
<jcater> dneighbo: no
<dneighbo> or is this a way to make it so one definite works for all providers
<jcater> geas would have ONE grpc file
<jcater> and gfrom that we can generate corba stubs
<jcater> etc
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<jcater> at least, that's the intention
<dneighbo> ok and it would make the approriate idl or such substitution
<siesel> yes
<chillywilly> talking about gnurpc?
<siesel> yes
<dneighbo> i just want to make sure proper communication is being had
<dneighbo> before committing code
<dneighbo> as up front something .grpc seems like an odd extension
<dneighbo> .grc mayb (gnu rpc connection)
<jcater> that's my fault :(
<jcater> but I was afraid gr? would be confused/conflict with reports stuff
<jcater> none of this is set in stone
<jcater> now that we have some examples
<dneighbo> im not opposed to greater than 3 car extensions
<jcater> it's probably time to formalize this stuff
<chillywilly> this is not DOS ;)
<jcater> and start discussions
<dneighbo> but if its a connection file of sorts
Action: chillywilly wishes he could wrap his head around said code
<jcater> dneighbo: one note.. this is ONLY used by the tool developers, not sys admins or users
<jcater> i.e., it's essentially code
<jcater> not sure if that matters or not
<jcater> but just an observation :)
<siesel> many protocolls (like xmlrpc f.e.)  won't even need an  .grpc  file, but its good to have one to control access on the server side
<dneighbo> jcater: not saying we need to change it
<dneighbo> simply asking questions :)
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<dneighbo> .grpc was not intuitive t me :)
<jcater> all of 2 minutes went into the naming of the file
<dneighbo> well its ounds like there will only be one of them
<dneighbo> so it probably has no bearing
<siesel> and it would be easy to create one:
<siesel> Add an lokal socket implementation, which allows any kind of RPC methods, and
<siesel>   which writes a communication protocoll into a GRPC file. 
<siesel>   with this tool it is possible to change your application, or write a 
<siesel>   new application, then use the special protokoll one time and voila get
<siesel>   a GRPC file for normal protocolls
<dneighbo> my concern was if we were to have lots of these
<dneighbo> it woudl be worth renaming
<jcater> ok
<jcater> well, honestly, I foresee GNUe having a total of maybe 3 of these files
<jcater> one for geas, one for integrator, one for report server
<dneighbo> one for each server?
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> same thought i had
<jcater> well
<jcater> depending on how we do other stuff (Authenticaion Server, Workflow Server, etc)
<jcater> I suppose there could be more than 3
<jcater> but you get the point
<jcater> i.e., these are NOT a replacement for GCD
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<jcater> although, since the topic has been brought up
<jcater> we do need to discuss at some point
<jcater> how GCDs are gonna look
<jcater> but, I digress
<dneighbo> xml
<jcater> in all honesty, we probably will do away with the GRPC files and just have them be Python data structures
<jcater> but because I was in the test stage, it was easier to have this in an external file
<jcater> so the various "approaches" I was testing could use the same interface definition
<chillywilly> dude, is it spelled protocol ;)
<jcater> wtf?
Action: jcater is looking back
<jcater> who mispelled it?
<chillywilly> siesel: 
<jcater> oh
<chillywilly> and he commited updated docs with the same misspellings
<jcater> that had already scrolled off my screen :)
<jcater> yeah
Action: chillywilly was reading RPC-absatrction.txt that's why I said it
<jcater> we need our own dictionary of mispellings
<jcater> number one: 
<siesel> sorry. I'm no native speaker.
<jcater> (for jamest) 
<jcater> it's incoming, not incomming
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> oh and also glaced donuts instead of glazed
<jcater> number two: 
<jcater> (for chillywilly)
<jcater> it's relational, not oo
Action: jcater ducks
<chillywilly> s/f.e./e.g.
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> hey anyone know if there is a mime type for dia?
<jcater> look in common/src/GMimeTypes.py :)
<siesel> jcater: it won't be good to make a python data structure out of .grpc files. a)  having many differenet clients accessing one (GEAS, ..) server it is better to have the definition of the PROTOCOL at just one place and in a code many programming languages understands (xml)
<dneighbo> so that i can make my browser autolaunch .dia files?
<jcater> siesel: true
<jcater> my only concern was the additional startup time
<jcater> but it may not be worth that
<siesel> b) different other reasons
<gontran_food> dneighbo: application/x-dia-diagram ?
<dneighbo> dood where did you find that?
<dneighbo> i looked all over google
<gontran_food> gnomecc :)
<chillywilly> An application makes a call to GComm.bind() with a list of requested
<chillywilly> interfaces and the location of its.... what's the ends of this sentence?
<chillywilly> it sorta just stops
<nickr> I'm suprised no one has done a really comprehensive emacs-style keymap for visual stupido
<gontran_food> bound socket?
<jcater> chillywilly: grpc definition file, iirc
<jcater> chillywilly: didn't you know
<jcater> grpc is nothing but a guessing game
<jcater> :)
<jcater> wtf?!?!?
<jcater> my gs can't find the Courier font
Action: jcater smacks gs around a bit
<chillywilly> there's some deaign there
<chillywilly> I just can't find it ;)
<chillywilly> but I am stooopid
<dneighbo> gontran_food unfortunately that doest work
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Nick change: gontran_food -> gontran
<gontran> dneighbo: hmm. using galeon or mozilla?
<chillywilly> is a .grpc file in any special xml format?
<jcater> just something we put together
<chillywilly> oh
<gontran> dneighbo: doh.  galeon doesn't work for me either.
<gontran> whaddya want?  convenience?!
<siesel> do we have a DTD for gfd files?
<chillywilly> there's sort of one in gnue/forms/doc/ 
<chillywilly> gnue-forms.dtd
<siesel> what do you mean with "a sort of"
<chillywilly> I dunno if it is official or anything like that or up to date
<jcater> it's not up to date
<jcater> we have a utility gnue-dtd 
<jcater> that automatically creates a tools dtd
<jcater> from it's GParser definition
<siesel> there is a hint at the end of it: "This DTD was created by gnuedtd"
<jcater> HOWEVER
<jcater> I ran into an infinite loop w/it
<jcater> and haven't looked at it since I discovered this
<jcater> that's something I want to do
<jcater> but haven't had time
<jcater> and it's been a low priority
<jcater> as the forms techref documents the format pretty well
<chillywilly> hey I don't understand the bindings param in GComm.bind()
<chillywilly> # bindings   A dictionary containing binding definitions. The dictionary
<chillywilly> #            is of the form: {server:handler} where:
<chillywilly> #              1) service: Name of the service being bound/exposed
<chillywilly> #              2) handler: Method that when called returns a class 
<chillywilly> #                 instance i.e. {'DonutPlace',getDonutPlaceObj}
<chillywilly> what does this mean in english?
<siesel> where can i find it? emacs xml mode needs an dtd to work  better
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: basically, the exposed method 'DonutPlace' calls the physical method 'getDonutPlaceObj'
<siesel> yes you saw it right. its german. ;)
<jcater> at least, if my memory serves me correctly
<gontran> nice
<siesel> jcater 's right
<gontran> so GComm.bind allows exposure of any physical method to rpc?
<gontran> via any name?
<jcater> that's the idea, at least
<gontran> if you don't mind me asking, does that mean it's not working? :)
<jcater> I think it's working with XML-RPC now
<jcater> thanks to siesel
<chillywilly> siesel: so you are the new gnurpc masta ;)
<chillywilly> ?
<jcater> with corba, soap, et al to follow
<gontran> ah
<chillywilly> I want to add irc just for fun
Action: jcater wants to troutslap chillywilly
<jcater> ..just for fun
<chillywilly> and to learn how it works
<gontran> heh
<chillywilly> thanks dude
<chillywilly> that felt great
<chillywilly> gimme more
<siesel> no. jcater is still the master. I just try to figure out the deep thoughts of his mind.....
<siesel> ... funny, after working at gnurpc I'm allways thinking about donuts... ;)
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<siesel> jcater: now there are two xmlrpc implementations: xmlrpc (gpl'd, but no https) and pw_xmlrpc (xmlrpc from pythonware)
<jcater> cool
<jcater> yeah, I noticed your commit
<dneighbo> dtd is of limited use to us, i found it kind of odd to make a dtd for something that was in 'flux'
<chillywilly> siesel: how long did it take to crack into such a scary place as jcater's mind? ;)
<dneighbo> btw: siesel i had a working emacs mode for forms at one time
<dneighbo> took existing xml mode
<dneighbo> and hacked a little into it
<drochaid> and aloha here as well Renegade
<dneighbo> and inserted dtd for forms and was on my way
<Renegade> lol
<Renegade> heylo
<siesel> cool
<drochaid> I never claimed to pay attention .. just to be here ;)
<dneighbo> seriously the visual designer is WAY more productive
<dneighbo> but i digress
<dneighbo> the way i made the dtd was found a web site where you hadn it an xml file
<dneighbo> and it creates a dtd for it
<dtm> hi all
<dtm> Hi, Al.
<dneighbo> i fed it my most complex form and got a decent dtd back
<siesel> cool.
<siesel> i would like to know where this gnue-dtd, jcater spoke of, can be found.
<chillywilly> siesel: I will now bug you with gnurpc questions ;)
Action: siesel ducks
<chillywilly> gnue/forms/doc/gnue-forms.dtd
<jcater> do ppl purposely ignore me when I say stuff isn't working?
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> yes
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<siesel> jcater: i like not working code.
<jcater> it's in common/scripts iirc
<jcater> and it's a COMPLETE mess
<jcater> ... one of my first python programs
<gontran> aha 'gnuedtd'
<jcater> iirc you just run "gnuedtd forms"
<jcater> for a forms dtd
<jcater> or "gnuedtd reports" for a reports dtd
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> gnuedtd p0rn
<dneighbo> didnt get me what i expected
<dtm> chillywilly: HIGH
<jcater> dneighbo: sigh... I've been saying it's borked
<jcater> but no one listens
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> ello dtm
<siesel> now i know, that its your first python programm: it has 389 lines of code and just 7 comments ;)
<jcater> yeah, well
<jcater> I've tried to cut back on comments
<jcater> 7 was just overkill
<jcater> :p
<dneighbo> gontran what wm you using? windowmaker?
<siesel> lol
<gontran> dneighbo: noser, blaahckbocks
<gontran> with wm dockapps :)
<dneighbo> jcater: i expected 'borking' with gnuedtd pr0n, but sadly didnt get it
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> i forget black box has the slit
<dneighbo> you should try fluxbox
<jcater> sigh
<gontran> <snicker> slit
Action: dneighbo is a recent fluxbox convert
<gontran> re fluxbox, I read that they ripped off gpl code from bbkeys and re licsensed ...
<dneighbo> though i have trouble getting things in the slit (pun intended)
<dneighbo> gontran ?
<dneighbo> how can they RELICENSE code if they are not copyright holders
<gontran> dneighbo: ya really.  d00d  i know
<gontran> dneighbo: I read that, believed it and haven't touched it 
<gontran> though I was excited about it 
<dneighbo> if you mean used gpl code in their code their code must be GPL compatiable
<gontran> I know, it seems obvious, but I believe they were in violation until a rewrite or something -- 
<gontran> don't have all the details atm
<dneighbo> i.e. one can take gpl code and use in non gpl application as long as its a gpl compatiable license
<gontran> hmm
<dneighbo> what is the license?
Action: dneighbo is a little nervous
Action: gontran hits google
<chillywilly> # object object (hehe)
<dneighbo> it was in debian so i thought it was ok
<chillywilly> lol
Action: dneighbo goes to ask vrms
<gontran> it's on kuro5hin
<gontran> http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:0O-FbTdnWRMC:www.kuro5hin.org/print/2002/3/20/21028/6270+fluxbox+gpl+bbkeys&hl=en
<dneighbo> hmm it seems free
<jcater> chillywilly: you familiar w/Mike's Hard Lemonade?
<dneighbo> jcater: he has tea now too
<dneighbo> mike that is
<jcater> chillywilly: if so, then consider that most of grpc was written with mike's help
<chillywilly> jcater: yes
<chillywilly> :P
<gontran> more detail
<gontran> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/3/20/21028/6270
<chillywilly> thanks mike
<gontran> dneighbo: implication is it's been 'fixed'
<chillywilly> mike's hard tea?
<chillywilly> or is it twisted tea?
<gontran> twisted ? www.twistedmatrix.com
<dneighbo> interesting
<chillywilly> I am tlaking about what dneighbo said
<chillywilly> talking
<dneighbo> still free so im in the clear but i might have to go to blackbox on licensing principle
<dneighbo> does blackbox support workspaces?
<gontran> sure.  it's the pricipul of the thing afterall.
<chillywilly> why not Gnome?
<chillywilly> not enough memory?
<gontran> um workspaces? like yeah I think.  
<dneighbo> chillywilly yeah p233mhz 64mb RAM
<gontran> oh yes, absolutesly
<dneighbo> but honestly after playing for awhile gnome adn kde seem like over kill :)
<dneighbo> i.e. even on a big machine
<chillywilly> maybe, but I likes me eye candy ;)
<gontran> I found that kde was not the answer to all of my personal problems, so I left it.
<dneighbo> i will still run gnome on my bigger hardware
Action: dneighbo thinks jcater should leave kde/gnome and go blackbox or such
<dneighbo> it suits his personality better
<jcater> dneighbo: I have all my users on KDE
<jcater> (as it's easy for them to adjust to)
<jcater> and I just like to be using the same thing I make them use
<jcater> (so when issues arise, I can better resolve them)
<jcater> I may try it at home too
<jcater> s/too/although
<gontran> <aside> gotta go with yer gut
<chillywilly> gotta go with a GNU desktop ;)
<jcater> it's a free desktop
<chillywilly> j/k, I am going to be nice
<gontran> <sarcasm>what's a desktop?
Action: jcater backs down
<chillywilly> I don't care as long as it's Free
Action: gontran looks around at all the radicals
<chillywilly> gontran: parse error, no ending tag for <sarcasm>
<gontran> s/<sarcasm>/<sarcasm\//
<jcater> <sigh/>
<chillywilly> anyway, how does a .grpc get parsed?
<chillywilly> hmmm, I think I need to figure out the parser
<jcater> well, here is a summary of GNUe RPC
<jcater> 1. Load GRPC file
<jcater> 2. Bind your methods with the GRPC file
<jcater> 3. ????
<jcater> 4. Serve your stuff to the world
<jcater> hope that clears things up
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> HEH!
<chillywilly> where's this loadDefinition function at?
<dneighbo> i think the stork brings them
<chillywilly> dude I followed the imports but I don't see it
<chillywilly> they lead back to GParser.py
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<chillywilly> duh, it's right fucking there
<jcater> gah
<jcater> I hate ghostscript
<jcater> argh!
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> damn thing won't respect the dimensions of the original document
<chillywilly> what are you doing?
<dneighbo> captain obvious: he is using ghostscript
<jcater> I'm hacking Oracle Reports
<jcater> to send a PDF file to an email address
<jcater> I created a PS report formatter
<jcater> and am now trying to use ps2pdf to convert that output
<jcater> but it puts EVERYTHING in us letter (portrait)
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<chillywilly> why would you have a writeonly attribute?
<chillywilly> bah, he's gnoe
<chillywilly> gone
<siesel> you can use gnurpc to programm your grafics card. (vga has many writeonly register)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> grpc should use some format....like say odl ;)
<siesel> i know your favorite.
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<chillywilly> hey what's the foad method again?
<chillywilly> fork off and die?
Action: chillywilly is looking in GServerApp.py
<chillywilly> how does that work again?
<siesel> which GServerApp.py
<chillywilly> in common
<chillywilly> I am just asking how that 'daemon' foad method is supposed to work in general
<chillywilly> I think that's what happen in the daemonize method
<jcater> we have a foad() method?
Nick change: gontran -> gontcooking
<chillywilly> no I mean method as in technique
<jcater> oh
<chillywilly> we have daemonize() methods that does a foad
<chillywilly> fwict
<jcater> we try to double fork, then kill the parent process
<jcater> iirc
<siesel> it copies the actual process inclusive the whole memory. now there are two programms. the first ... (jcater writes faster than me ;))
<chillywilly> that's how fork works
<chillywilly> I get that
Action: jcater doesn't follow your question then
<chillywilly> how does this but it in the backgroud?
<chillywilly> that's the purpose right?
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> that's what double-forking does
<jcater> ...put it in the background
<chillywilly> oh
<jcater> you fork a new process (and acutally pass control to that process)
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> then kill the process attached to the terminal
<chillywilly> hmmm
<jcater> since the new process isn't associated w/a terminal, it's in the "background"
<chillywilly> so why 2 forks then?
<jcater> um
<jcater> hang on
<chillywilly> I have a problem with a mutli-threaded program where I want one thread to get i/o, anyone know how to solve this short of making a gui?
<chillywilly> (just a side question ;) )
<chillywilly> I suppose only the main thread has control of the terminal
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> oh well
<siesel> jcater: i tried to remove the second  fork--- no problem.
<jcater>  In order to avoid having to care for the termination of child processes oneself, it is possible to delegate this responsibility to an ancestor process. ``Double fork'' allows a process not to take care of the funerals of all its child processes, but to delegate this responsibility to the init process. Here is the principle: a process P0 creates a process P1, which in turn creates a third process P2. Then P1 terminates. So P2 is
<jcater> d will be adopted by init, which waits for its termination. The initial process P0 can execute a wait for P1 which will be of short duration. The idea is to delegate to the grandchild the work which otherwise would have been for the child.
<jcater>  
<jcater> a single fork will work
<jcater> but may lead to a hung server later on
<jcater> in non-POSIX os's a single fork is the only option
<jcater> so we try to double-fork if possible
<jcater> but leave it at a single-fork if that's all we can get
<siesel> good to know.
<chillywilly> where is that from?
<chillywilly> you are essentially creating a zombie?
<jcater> chillywilly: I closed that window
<jcater> but from the Unix Programming FAQ:
<jcater> http://www.erlenstar.demon.co.uk/unix/faq_2.html#SEC16
<chillywilly> ok
<siesel> can we add a link to that in an comment?
<jcater> btw, I don't fully understand WHY it's necessary
<jcater> but I've read many places that it's a good idea to do it
<jcater> :)
<jcater> siesel: yeah, I can do that
<siesel> thx
<chillywilly> it's a zombie process right?
<jcater> I guess
<chillywilly> I mean it has no parents so init inherits them
<jcater> I can't give a better explanation than the FAQ
<jcater> 'cause I don't fully grok what's going on
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> that's a very helpful link
<chillywilly> onyl thing I don't grok is the session crap
<chillywilly> setsid(), etc.
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> this is standard daemon stuff
<jcater> I don't really know why
<chillywilly> hey I remember someone asking in #c++ how to tell if  a process is running
<chillywilly> they answer this in 1.9 ;)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> cool
<jcater> from "man setsid":
<jcater>        A process group leader is a process with process group  ID
<jcater>        equal  to  its  PID.  In order to be sure that setsid will
<jcater>        succeed, fork and exit, and have the child do setsid().
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> how do you get info to use man page sections?
<jcater> no clue
<chillywilly> seems you fork twice so you can never regain a controlling terminal because then you are not a session group leader
<chillywilly> you need to do chdir() and umask(0) after the second fork though
<chillywilly> chdir("/")
<chillywilly> well I suppose that might not matter
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I was just thinking about reports
<jcater> I think we should randomly insert pages in reports
<jcater> with the caption "This page intentionally left blank"
<jcater> what do y'all think?
<chillywilly> uh
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> that's an excellent idea
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> or we could randomly insert goat-pr0n pages
<chillywilly> that might be better
<chillywilly> and more our style
<siesel> jcater, you are right gnue-dtd doesn't work for reports and forms....
<siesel> but it works for gnurpc now... :)
<jcater> cool
<siesel> ok. cu l8r.
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<chillywilly> jcater: you there?
<jcater> somewhat
<chillywilly> I don't get the proxy object constructor
<chillywilly> can you explain it?
<chillywilly> shal I paste some code?
<jcater> sure
<chillywilly> lass ProxyObject:
<chillywilly>   def __init__(self, adapter, attr, parent=None, **params):
<chillywilly>     for param in params.keys():
<chillywilly>       self.__dict__["_%s" % param] = params[param]
<chillywilly>     self._adapter = adapter
<chillywilly>     self._parent = parent
<chillywilly>     self._attr = attr
<chillywilly> class that is
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<jcater> your getting into the really nasty, technical stuff now
<chillywilly> well yea
<chillywilly> that what happens when you read the code
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> are you hacking right now?
<jcater> better postscript support to my Oracle Reports server
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> postrscript scares me
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> me too
<chillywilly> almost as much as this call() method in the xmlrpc driver
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> #
<chillywilly>   # Call the requested method
<chillywilly>   #
<chillywilly>   def call(self, method, params):
<chillywilly>     print "Dispatching: ", method, params
<chillywilly>     
<chillywilly>     ## Check if the Method is part of a service or a pointer to a
<chillywilly>     ## single object
<chillywilly>     ##
<chillywilly>     ## Call to an object:  method="_Management:235423456_.getAttr"
<chillywilly>     ##                     params=""
<chillywilly>     ## Call to an method: (of a service=one object)
<chillywilly>     ##                     method="DonutPlace.Management.Restart"
<chillywilly> can you explain this a bit?
<chillywilly> looks very hairy
<chillywilly> and I see lots of string manipulation
<chillywilly> help!
<chillywilly> jcater: you working on work stuff at home?
<jcater> chillywilly: yeah
<jcater> lot's o crap to do
<chillywilly> well I need your experise
<chillywilly> expertise
<jcater> wassup?
<chillywilly> can you explain that method string thingy?
<jcater> what file are you in?
<chillywilly> ServerAdapter.py of xmlrpc
<chillywilly> call() method
<jcater> ok
<jcater> gnurpc supports objects
<jcater> whether the underlying transport does or not
<jcater> xmlrpc does not
<jcater> so when an object is being used
<jcater> the server creates the object
<jcater> but the client creates a proxy of that object
<jcater> (this is the client code in gnurpc, not the actual client app)
<jcater> so when a method is called against an object
<jcater> a string representing that object is passed back and forth via the transport
<jcater> (xmlrpc)
<jcater> since no method names can be of the format [method]
<jcater> we used [xxxx] to denote an "object handle"
<jcater> e.g., [12321312321].RunMyCode
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> if [12321312321] is the id of MyObject
<jcater> then the server executes MyObject.RunMyCode()
<chillywilly> the object librarian manages these objects?
<chillywilly> wtf does this mean: ## Call to an object:  method="_Management:235423456_.getAttr"
<chillywilly>     ##                     params=""
<chillywilly> that doesn't seem to fit that format
<jcater> oh
<jcater> well that's the general idea
Action: jcater forgets the actual syntax
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> is this __getattr__ () stuff?
<jcater> some of it is, iirc
<chillywilly> i thought you just said object calls were going to look like [oid].method?
<chillywilly> why does this string look all funcky
<chillywilly> tis example
<chillywilly> that's what is confusing
<jcater> <jcater> well that's the general idea
<jcater> * jcater forgets the actual syntax
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> so you telling my that comment is bogus or you have no idea what the string is really supposed to look like?
<jcater> I have no clue what I'm telling you
<jcater> that's the general idea of how it works
<jcater> but I forget the details
<chillywilly> the code seems to support what you are saying
<jcater> looks like the comment and the code don't match
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I don't understand this directory stuff, is that part of xmlrpc?
<jcater> directory stuff?
<jcater> oh, yeah
<chillywilly> # call to a service method            
<chillywilly>       try:
<chillywilly>         direntry = self.getMethodDirEntry(method)
<chillywilly>         server_method = direntry['binding']
<chillywilly>         signature=direntry['signature']
<jcater> that's XML-RPC standard stuff
<chillywilly>         
<chillywilly>         if server_method==None:
<chillywilly>           raise AttributeError, \
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> gah
<chillywilly> could you maybe give a quick overview of how this directory thing works or should I rtfm ;)
Action: jcater secretly cleans up some of siesel's code, while he's asleep :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> why the gah?
Action: jcater just saw the
<jcater> if len(params) == 0: 
<jcater>  ...
<jcater> elif len(params) == 1: 
<jcater>  ...
<jcater> elif len(params) == 2: 
<jcater>  ...
<jcater> .....
<chillywilly> how did you fix that? does python have aswitch?
<jcater>     # call method with params
<jcater>     result=server_method(*params)
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> just pass the whole list
<jcater> http://xmlrpc-c.sourceforge.net/xmlrpc-howto/xmlrpc-howto-api-introspection.html
<chillywilly> k...
<chillywilly> so much shit to read
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> not much to it
<jcater> just basically a few methods to say, "what methods do you expose"
<jcater> you're gonna know more about gnurpc than I here shortly :)
<chillywilly> did you read the whole howto?
<jcater> at one point, I think so
<chillywilly> dude I have to start form like square one again and read all about xml
<chillywilly> I
<chillywilly> 'll have to do that later
<chillywilly> and here I was going to write some thread-safe c++ i/o streams
<chillywilly> ohw ell
<chillywilly> this is more fun'
<chillywilly> the gnu stdc++ lib is scarier than your code ;)
<chillywilly> hey where's an example .grpc file at?
<jcater> well
<jcater> there's the donut factory
<jcater> and the geas.grpc in appserver/src
<chillywilly> yea, but hopefully geas's interfaces will be a lot better when I am done here...
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> ok, thanks
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<chillywilly> you know I always hated reading other people's code ;)
<chillywilly> tales forever to figure out what is going on
<chillywilly> takes
<chillywilly> dude, I want freakin nueral tab completion
<chillywilly> i.e., it *knows* what I am trying to type and completes it without having to match anything except what is in my brain
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> heheh, crazymike is trying to IM me but gaim keeps crashing on him
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<chillywilly> oooooh jcater
<chillywilly> where are you jcater
<chillywilly> ?
Action: jcater hides
<chillywilly> heeeelp
Action: chillywilly looks and looks
<jcater> wassup?
<chillywilly> dewd what does the _path of an xmlized object point at?
<chillywilly> (GObj)
<jcater> _path?
<chillywilly> (rpcdef)
<chillywilly> (same thing right)
<chillywilly>  def _xmlrpc_mapObjects(self, object, bindings, parent=None):
<jcater> you are confusing me
<chillywilly>     # For servicable objects, maintain a complete "path" for reference
<chillywilly>     if object._type in ('RpService','RpMethod','RpObject'):
<chillywilly>       if parent and hasattr(parent,'_path'):
<chillywilly>         object._path = "%s.%s" % (parent._path, object.name)
<chillywilly>       else:
<chillywilly>         object._path = object.name
<chillywilly> that stuff
<chillywilly> the namepsace?
<jcater> yeah
<chillywilly> namespace
<jcater> basically
<jcater> oorc
<jcater> iirc even
<chillywilly> gnue.common.fuckoff
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> did siesel add that¿?
<jcater> ?
<jcater> I don't remember a fuckoff module
<chillywilly> gnue.common.getAwayFromMyDamnCode
<chillywilly> Chillywilly
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> gnue.common.getAwayFromMyDamnCodeChillywilly
<chillywilly> ok, I am having too much fun as mikw would say
<chillywilly> we just played 2 games of NBA Jam at ful speeed over the internet
<chillywilly> er, 3
<chillywilly> a/mikw/mike
<chillywilly> freakin' broadband has got to be good for something
<chillywilly> does every GObject have these member variables?
<chillywilly> _path, _type ?
<jcater> every GObject has _type
<jcater> _path is specific to grpc
<chillywilly> w00t
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> it only sets that in _xmlrpc_mapObjects
<chillywilly> is there an rpcdef objectd efined somewhere...
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<jcater> I don't remember
<chillywilly> lotta good that does
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> you bever explained the proxy object to me
<chillywilly> never
<chillywilly> in GCommBase.py
<chillywilly> some method hearders go a long way ;)
<chillywilly> I have to make sure that when I hack some python that I write hearders for the methods ;)
<chillywilly> no bagging on you btw
<chillywilly> not
<chillywilly> dude man fazzoli's is the best italian place to eat at....uuuuh
<chillywilly> gotta go back there again
<dtm> chillywilly: @*#)!*
<chillywilly> one thing that sucks about python and the fact that there's no declarations is you can document the class and it
<chillywilly> 's members
<chillywilly> seeems that way anyway
<chillywilly> should check out pydoc
<chillywilly> or whatever it is called
<chillywilly> dtm: 098 lhbgoi7y0 gp iu13gye *&^(IUYT
<chillywilly> oooh jcater
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> it's usually women who say that
<jcater> but, ok
<jcater> what's up?
<chillywilly> I am trying to be annoying like a woman
<chillywilly> that's the point
<chillywilly> anyway...
<chillywilly> could you possibly explain the proxy constructor and what the various member variables are?
<chillywilly> ProxyObejct that is
<chillywilly> ProxyObject
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> you know you are going to start hating me ;)
<chillywilly> it's in GCommBase.py
<dtm> chillywilly: hahaha
<chillywilly> I should document this
<chillywilly> ;)
<dtm> see there's a paradox, because you guys all act like you want a realdoll.com but they dont have a payment plan so you tolerate live human beings  ;)
<chillywilly> wtf?
<jcater> um
<jcater> anyway
<dtm> ok maybe that was an overstatement.
<dtm> JUST TRYING TO BE FUNNY  :-I
<dtm> i thought maybe there was the beginnings of a joke htere but maybe it was just an insult!  ....?
Action: dtm goes back to reading about copyright crap on slashdot
<chillywilly> man those things are fucking expensive
<chillywilly> 6 gs
<dtm> yeah, only the RIAA could afford a copyright law amendment!
<dtm> ;->
<dtm> oh you mean THOSE
<chillywilly> no, the realdolls
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> ;>
<dtm> but they're so realistic!
<chillywilly> even my woman doesn't cost me that much ;)
<chillywilly> you can't even getone on a payment plan
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> $6,000
<jcater> that ain't bad
<jcater> that's a year of dates
<jcater> but, heh, you're sure to score :)
Action: jcater /clears that one
<chillywilly> lol
<dtm> yeah you'd have to buy it on a credit card
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<ajmitch> hi dneighbo
<dneighbo> hi ajmitch
<dneighbo> nickr: you alive (re: did the move go ok)
<dneighbo> crikey
<dneighbo> i updated sid like 10 days ago and already 207 packages to upgrade
<chillywilly> heheh
--- Thu May  2 2002