[00:56] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<nickr> za za za
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<ajmitch> hi psu
<ajmitch> :)
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Action: drochaid notes the sun is shining, it's warm and just generally a beutifull day ...
Action: drochaid returns to bed in disgust
Action: ajmitch goes to bed anyway
<drochaid> isn't it a bit early for you?
<ajmitch> 11pm
<drochaid> so you'll be around for another 4 or 5 hours then? :)
<ajmitch> doubt it, am tired
Action: drochaid prods ajmitch
Action: drochaid watches ajmitch fall off his chair
Action: Remosi reads KC
<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> psu?
<Remosi> psu: the last sentance of section 2 of the current KC, doesn't finish.  Links to previous articles aren't working?  I've seen this for several issues now.
Action: Remosi hopes psu greps his name in the logs
<psu> yep
<psu> we are undergoing a "restructure"
<psu> as Zack is moving from using perl to xslt to format the issues
<psu> one of the parts of the xslt stylesheet that's not working at moment 
<psu> is the kcrefs
<psu> Also the name and topic index
<psu> I'm still including them in the source
<psu> as we hope these will be fixed RSN
<psu> (real soon now)
<Remosi> Ahh thank you :)
<psu> any python gurus awake?
<psu> is string.count("substring") not supported in 1.5.x?
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<psu> sorted it
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<psu> ok, that's enough GNUeing for the moment
<psu> time for an aftenoon nap - see if I can sleep some of  this cold off
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<Ford_> hello
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<Ford_> do you have to look for ident blocks in python ?
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<psu> brb
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<reinhard> psu: just to be curious - is 9/6/73 your birthday?
<psu> nope - why?
Action: psu wonders which of his p/w reinhard has cracked ;-)
<reinhard> i was trying to figure out why you selected port 9673 for the new website :)
<reinhard> which doesn't work for me btw
<psu> blame one of the j*s - they did the set up
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> works in msie doesn't work in mozilla
<psu> um
<psu> that's bad
<psu> hopefully it's just the port # that's a problem
<psu> as a free s/w project with a site that doesn't work with mozilla would be 
<psu> well, not exactly self-contradictory
<psu> but on the verge ;-)
<reinhard> i am 100% positive it's the port#
<reinhard> my 2 cents (of course euro-cents) to the new site:
<reinhard> imho we need a site that is maintained _in_the_long_run_ and whoever will maintain it over the next months will have the right to choose php vs zope vs static
<reinhard> especially the documentation pages and the "current status" pages need maintainance
<psu> i agree
<reinhard> "Verbatim copying and distribution ... under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License" is a contradiction IMHO
<reinhard> as the GNU FDL says basically you may change the text how you see fit
<reinhard> and verbatim as i understands says you may not change
<psu> IANAL - my fault for cut & pasting the phpnuke bolierplate with GPL.
<psu> Also, I believe FSF house style is not to acknowldge trade marks
<psu> as there's no legal requirement to do so (provided you are careful)
<reinhard> hmmm.. FSF house style is not to _use_ trade marks :)
<psu> well, not trade marks for non-free s/w
<psu> I would guess "Linux is a trade mark of Linus Torvolds" is OK
<psu> This is one of my concerns about mirroring some of this stuff to the 
<psu> www.gnu.org site
<psu> as we may have to fillet some of the news items 
<reinhard> wrt design i like it
<reinhard> the "tabs" at the top of the page could be left away
<psu> i'm not that committed to them, but they do give you a feel for where you are in the site
<psu> plus I crashed zope debugging them ;-)
<reinhard> ahh the active one is always yellow - didn't get that... i guess it's ok then :)
<psu> The "What is GNUe?" is accesible from anywhere for people who come in via search engines
<reinhard> yeah that's a very good idea
<reinhard> i thought about (just as a small gag) the text in the top right corner
<reinhard> we could provide some 5 or 10 lines
<reinhard> and they get exchanged randomly
<psu> i'm sure that's do-able
<reinhard> nevermind just a spontaneous idea
<psu> i just need to think of 5-10 tag lines to rotate ;-)
<psu> that don't look too unprofessional ;-)
<psu> Raiding the "headquotes" from GNUe KC is tempting 
<psu> but probably not wise ;-)
<reinhard> bbl
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<psu> <reinhard> jamest: i think a final gnue install could have some 100 tables
<psu> um, per module I would say ;-)
<psu> I can easily see GL/AP/AR breaking 100 tables between them
<psu> before you even get on to the other packages
Nick change: chillywilly -> cw-away
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<psu> psu.fetch("wife")
<psu> probably not back later
<psu> cu
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<dichotomy> Hey all, anyone actually listening here?
<nickr> nop
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Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
Action: drochaid thinks rm-away should really have been rm-rf
<reinhard> :)
Nick change: cw-away -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> howdy reinhard
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<chillywilly> hi jan
<siesel> hi chilly
<siesel> how are you doing?
<chillywilly> fine thanks
<Remosi> ltns cw :)
<chillywilly> ltns?
<siesel> cw?
<chillywilly> chillywilly
<drochaid> as per chillywillys suggestion [I think] #photo now exists on this network .. is this spam? :)
<chillywilly> go peddle your meats elsewhere ;)
<drochaid> muahahhahaahaaa 
<drochaid> how did you knwo what I'd been photographing? ;)
<Remosi> LTNS: Long Time No See.
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> you didn't catch the reference drochaid?
<chillywilly> spam is alse this canned ham crap
<chillywilly> gee, this is not fun when you have to explain the joke
<chillywilly> ;P
<drochaid> yeah I know ... I just picked up a completely different dirty, vicious reference from it ;)
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<siesel> jamest:  introspection don't work for popy dbdriver for postgres. Is popy important?
<drochaid> it is if you're trying to make opium
<chillywilly> sweeet sweeeet GNUe opium
<drochaid> heh
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<chillywilly> uhuhuhuhuuh peeeeeteeeeer
<psu> huh?
<chillywilly> I was trying to do 'the family guy' thing
<chillywilly> you ever watch that show?
<chillywilly> it's a cartoon series thing
<psu> nope
<psu> cable tv has cartoon network
<chillywilly> it's on FOX
<psu> but I only ever had it on if they're doing looney tunes marathon
<chillywilly> I also watch the cartoon network
<psu> UK probably has it on SkyOne then
<chillywilly> but my fav channel is the scifi channel of course ;)
<chillywilly> Frascape rules
<chillywilly> er, Farscape
<chillywilly> the best damn scifi series dude
<psu> about the only TV show I make a point of seeing is Frasier
<chillywilly> because he has that english accent?
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> on either Channel 4 or E4 (their pay channel)
<psu> I don't know what kind of accent Jane Leeves is trying, but it's not Manchester
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<drochaid> psu: it's closer to munchkin county :)
<siesel> does anybody knows if database fields with spaces or special characters are supported? (f.e. "lovely database' ' field")
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<psu> as not all d/bs support spaces in table names
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<psu> ISTR some discussion in Kernel Cousins about this some months back
<psu> as GEAS will use double underscores in places
<psu> but time for bed 
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<chillywilly> I don't think GEAS is totally defined...I see nowhere where a object-relational mapping is specified (yet) ;)
<siesel> cw: it would be great to have a definition soon.. I would like to test how  common/dbdrivers and appserver can be connected.
<the_grunf> hey
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<esands> Is there a quick 'howto' for building all the binaries within an alt-root. ie /home/foo/src/gnue/ rather than /usr/local/
<esands> from cvs
<siesel> n8t
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<chillywilly> esands: check out cvs and run setup-cvs.py
<chillywilly> it will install things in /home/username/ for you
<chillywilly> This setup script can install GNUe as either a local (per user)
<chillywilly> copy or a system-wide copy.  If you are unsure, choose the
<chillywilly> recommended 'Local' setting.  Installing system-wide will require
<chillywilly> the root password and may force all users on this machine to use
<chillywilly> your copy.
<chillywilly> Perform a [L]ocal/per-user or a [S]ystem-wide install? [L] 
<chillywilly>  
<chillywilly> Where shall I put executable files? [/home/danielb/bin] 
<chillywilly> ...
<esands> That builds symlinks. I assume I then just have to make build in the appropiate cvs sub directories?
<esands> er, ignore that. It forget its python, so it doesn't really need to compile anything. 8)
<chillywilly> it doe sbuild then to .pyc files
<chillywilly> it sets it all up for you
<chillywilly> from cvs
<chillywilly> s/then/them
<esands> Ok.  Now just a matter of figuring out the db setup and trying some of the samples. Thanks.
<chillywilly> your welcome
<chillywilly> btw, I think there's going to be a new release soon ;)
<esands> In what sense?  Isn't every cvs commit a new release? ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> in the sense that there should be better and more upt to date documentation ;)
<chillywilly> and it will be an officially supported version ;)
<chillywilly> not that you can't get support here though :)
<esands> documentation.  Now that is certainly worthy of a release. I was trying to figure if some of the stuff at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/ was really "Updated: 14 Jul 00"
<chillywilly> yea, supposedly the Forms API will be in the new technical reference ;)
<chillywilly> instead of having to grok it form examples, etc.
<esands> I think the best thing someone could do would be to produce a nice article/howto for one of the linux site going into the step-by-step mechanics of setting up a first stage gnue installation. (ie. for doing form development work.)
<chillywilly> er, update techref I should say
<chillywilly> 1. setup database
<chillywilly> 2. use designer
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> 3. make some forms
<chillywilly> 4. write some triggers
<esands> Yes, now add 1000 words. ;)
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> 5. deploy
<esands> Is there a man describing the *.conf files?  
<chillywilly> uh, no
<chillywilly> I dunno I am not a forms guru....I am trying to be soem kinda GEAS architect ;)
<esands> Yeah, I've got a few things (eg. FX management system) in spreadsheets that I want to try make into a form
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> I have a project that I have been meaning to convert so as to learn the rest of the tools
<chillywilly> but geas and othe things keep me busy
<chillywilly> other
<esands> Another thing you guys should setup is a CPAN like place where outside developers can contrib applications so others can see what can be done
<chillywilly> yea
<esands> heh, "better keep writing the core code" the end-user developer says. ;)
<chillywilly> I am not too familiar with CPAN but we plan to have an arhcive of packages built with the tools
<chillywilly> and our core packages
<esands> CPAN stregth is i. its search/archive mechanism, ii. its easy of install using the Makefile.PL system
<esands> Query about connections.conf then (if there is no documentation)
<esands> It basically defines 'connection labels' which are then hard coded into the form.gfd files?
<drochaid> wheee ... #photo had a visitor ... for 6 seconds
<esands> Using the :datasource" tag
<esands> s/:/"/
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<chillywilly> yea, connections.conf defines the DSNs for you
<chillywilly> you can then just use the DSN in your form
<chillywilly> instead of having all these tags like database, etc.
<chillywilly> Data Source Name
<chillywilly> afaict anyway ;)
<esands> of course
<chillywilly> wb jan
<siesel> wb ?
<chillywilly> welcome back
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: siesel is a bit too slow tonight...
<chillywilly> it's ok
<chillywilly> so jan have you looked at the start of my geas architecture document?
<siesel> where is it?
<chillywilly> and also one thing I was wonder wrt to GNURPC is why no one looked at WSDL
<chillywilly> ummm
<chillywilly> gune/docbook/Proposals/geasarch/
<esands> How is the database access control stuff specified? ie. user:passwd?
<chillywilly> yea, that is deferred to the database
<chillywilly> however, there's a script somwhere that jcater wrote that sets up and SSH tunnel
<esands> Deferred to the db?  What happens if the db client (form in this case) needs a passwd to access the datasource?  Where is that specified? 
<chillywilly> the client uses a login box to allow you to authenticate to the db
<chillywilly> er, datasource even'
<chillywilly> iirc
<siesel> cw: especially the docbook file is very informative ;)
<chillywilly> outline.txt
<chillywilly> that's where all the goods are right now
<chillywilly> also, gnue/geas/doc/odmg.txt is helpful
Action: siesel is dreaming of a cool docbook editor
<chillywilly> emacs?
<chillywilly> ;)
<drochaid> vi?
<siesel> I've read odmg.txt, but its some time ago. outline.txt is informative, except of the overview at the beginning, it is mostly about odmg and how to describe objects, or how to map  ODL into python objects.
<siesel> I think two other things are also very important at the moment:
<siesel> a) object-relational mapping (you said it)
<siesel> b) more concret definition of the way to access objects
<chillywilly> well the client API is defined in ODMG, imho
<esands> You guys seen http://www.twistedmatrix.com/products/spread? python rpc mechanism
<chillywilly> it just needs to be worked out
<chillywilly> interesting
<siesel> thats the step i'am waiting for
<chillywilly> well I am trying my best ;)
<chillywilly> siesel: did you see ym diagram?
<chillywilly> for the schema compiler
<chillywilly> s/ym/my
<chillywilly> I know it needs more explanation
<chillywilly> s/more//
<chillywilly> I spoke with reinhard about it before
<siesel> which one?
<chillywilly> geas-schema-compiler.dia
<siesel> what are the metaobjects?
<chillywilly> aaaah
<chillywilly> introspection
<chillywilly> objects about obakects
<chillywilly> so you can change the schema on the fly
<chillywilly> object about objects I mean
<chillywilly> the meta object api could be used by designer to create new business objects
<siesel> ok, now i think i got it.
<chillywilly> then form those odl files can be generated and python code stubs can be generated
<siesel> thats cool
<chillywilly> you can go the various ways
<esands> What is the right provider in connections.conf for postgres? 
<siesel> pypgsql?
<chillywilly> we have a number of postgres db drivers
<siesel> popy?
<chillywilly> take your pick
<siesel> be careful popy doesn't support introspection 
<esands> The default one 'psycopg' doesn't seem to work with debians 'python2.1-pgsql
<chillywilly> siesel, and I like how they generate modules/packages in the IDL binding...so it is like geas is adding all the objects on the fly
<siesel> no 'python2.1-pgsql and pypgsql go together
<chillywilly> there's good stuff there man
<chillywilly> I really like ODMG's stuff
<chillywilly> anyway, I must eat dinner
<chillywilly> bye
<chillywilly> bbiab
<siesel> GEAS V2 will be great
<siesel> cu
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<esands> siesel: thanks. 
<dneighbo> reinhard: you here
<siesel> dneighbo: do you have 5 min time?
<siesel> for all cvs updaters please check out the gtestcvs (like gdes,gfcvs...) command.
<siesel> l8r
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<chillywilly> hey dsmith
<dsmith> HEy chillywilly
<chillywilly> how's it going?
<dsmith> Rough
<chillywilly> why?
<dsmith> All the work I'm doing in Michigan is a pain.  Being away from family and home is harsh.
<dsmith> My cluster is ready to install.  All the rules have been tested.  Once it's in.  I'm done!
<dsmith> THis a  firewall at Comerica Bank.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> pays well? ;)
<chillywilly> you using *BSD to firewall with?
<dsmith> Better than nothing.
<dsmith> No, it's fw-1 on Solaris.
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> do you have acompany name?
<chillywilly> a company
<chillywilly> just out of curiousity
<dsmith> I work for Altus Technologies Corporation www.altustech.com
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> I thought you were a rogue warrior ;)
<dsmith> heh
<chillywilly> "open systems"
<dsmith> Well, it just two of us.
<chillywilly> really?
<dsmith> "open systems" is ibm speak for unix
<chillywilly> are you affiliated with IBM or just a vendor?
<dsmith> Buisness Partner.
<chillywilly> hmmm
<dsmith> We sell rs6000's
<dsmith> and do tsm (tivoli storage manager) (my main gig)
<chillywilly> I would like to request that you call Linux, GNU/Linux on your servuces page unless you are specifically talking about the kernel ;)
<chillywilly> ;P
<dsmith> I'll talk to the "web developer"
<dsmith> We use Debian pretty much exclusivle.
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> there's no better distro ;)
<dsmith> Yep.
<chillywilly> man how much does it cost to even get on of those rs6000?
<chillywilly> s/on/one
<dsmith> They ar not called rs six THOUSAND's for nothing.
<chillywilly> eeek, you got M$ on your bidness partner's list ;)
<chillywilly> lol
<dsmith> Ya. It's embarrasing.
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> how long are you going to be in Michigan?
<chillywilly> how long have you been there?
<chillywilly> Banks don't want to go the GNU/Linux route?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> let me know if I am annoying you ;)
<dsmith> Hmm.  I've been there since around feb-march.  My cluster was supposed to go in yesterday.  It's been pushed back to the 18th.
<dsmith> They have standaized on Sun and Solaris.
<chillywilly> "cluster" means what exactly? a server farm of sorts?
<dsmith> At least it a unix.  It's better that any junk that comes from m$.
<chillywilly> yea
<dsmith> Well, my cluster is two sun boxes that have load balancing using something called Stonebeat.
<chillywilly> is tsm like the Linux Volume Manager or RAID?
<chillywilly> ok
<dsmith> TSM is a HUGE backup system.
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> HUUUUUGGGEEEE
<chillywilly> ;)
<dsmith> It's got an enbedded db2 database in it.
<chillywilly> you ever hear of OLAP?
<chillywilly> they use that where da masta werks
<chillywilly> apparently
<chillywilly> to store a shit load of data
<dsmith> Ive seen the acronym, but I'm not familiar with it.
<dsmith> On Line Applications Processing?
Action: chillywilly tries to remember what ti stands for now...;P
<chillywilly> no, I don't think that is it
<chillywilly> it's like an n-dimensional matrix of storage
<dsmith> Overly Large Administivia Procedures
<chillywilly> you were close on the first one
<chillywilly> n-Line Analytical Processing (OLAP) is a category of software technology that enables analysts, managers and executives to gain insight into data through fast, consistent, interactive access to a wide variety of possible views of information that has been transformed from raw data to reflect the real dimensionality of the enterprise as understood by the user. 
<chillywilly> On-Line
<chillywilly> OLAP functionality is characterized by dynamic multi-dimensional analysis of consolidated enterprise data supporting end user analytical and navigational activities including: 
<dsmith> For fun I wrote gkrellmoon and mod-guile.
<chillywilly> http://www.moulton.com/olap/olap.glossary.html
<dsmith> gkrellmoon is a moon clock for gkrellm
<chillywilly> ok
<dsmith> http://gkrellmoon.sourceforge.net/
<dsmith> mod-guile isn't released yet.  It's so you can write apache code in scheme.  Like mod-perl or mod-python.
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> I am not a functional language guy (yet)
<dneighbo> btw: someone said soemthing about pyscopg not working with debian
<dneighbo> i use it religiously on debian with gnue
<dneighbo> so im curious as to the problem
<dsmith> Hmm.  It certainly was working for me.
<chillywilly> was that esands?
Action: chillywilly scrolls back
<chillywilly> bah, too much stuff
Action: chillywilly grep slogs
<chillywilly> May 05 18:25:50 <esands> The default one 'psycopg' doesn't seem to work with debians 'python2.1-pgsql
<chillywilly> I need another soda
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<chillywilly> ello rdean
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<dtm> hi all
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<No9> hello all
<chillywilly> hi dtm
<chillywilly> ello No9
<No9> one quick questions... cant seems to find it in docs or site.... what language is GNUE based on? and can I use MySQL?
<ajmitch> greetings
<ajmitch> mainly python, and you can use MySQL
<No9> heard of any ERP based on PHP?
<chillywilly> although I have no idea why you would use such a thing ;)
<No9> hee hee
<chillywilly> er, that goes for mysql and PHP ERP ;)
<No9> sorry folks... never touch python before... why that?
Action: rdean thinks it's because of the origin of the name :-)
<rdean> ni!
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> cause Python rocks our socks
<No9> and does anyone have anything to say about Compiere, www.compiere.org
<ajmitch> proprietary dependencies?
<rdean> seriously, though, although I've never delved into python before, it has a reputation for being a rich OO language
<No9> ok guys.. i will go red up on Python now... to me it might as well be cobol... excuse my ignorance. :) 
<rdean> syntax is a lot more elegant than others
<ajmitch> haven't heard many good things about Compiere :)
<chillywilly> I have heard some peope talking crap about it in here before ;)
<chillywilly> only because it has nasty dependencies or something
<ajmitch> Oracle
<No9> No9 at www.python.org now....
<chillywilly> ajmitch: ugh
<chillywilly> we support Oracle
<chillywilly> but we also support a LOT more ;)
<ajmitch> i know, but we don't depend on Oracle
<chillywilly> no we don't
<chillywilly> good point :)
<No9> I think they are working on other RDBMS support as well...
<chillywilly> well we already have tons of db drivers in our abstraction layer
<rdean> just went to compiere.org...they're working on pgsql support
<ajmitch> compiere also requires jdk 1.4 from sun :)
<ajmitch> not sure about licensing
Action: rdean would wait for jdk 1.4 from IBM....their JDKs run circles around Suns :-)
<No9> anyone here in singapore?
<ajmitch> close, i'm in NZ ;)
Action: rdean hrm...they're using JBuilder to write compiere.
<No9> NZ huh? i heard so much about the place... NICE !
<ajmitch> interesting
<No9> i came from Perth.
<No9> working in singapore...
<ajmitch> ok cool
<ajmitch> compiere is under MPL, i think
<chillywilly> Java....ugh
<No9> I have a customer looking at cheap ERP solution... instead of reinventing the wheel... I and looking at using one of the web.
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> or you can hack GNUe ;)
<ajmitch> chillywilly: java, oracle dependencies, and MPL, what more could you want?
<rdean> compiere is under compiere public license (been looking at it for the last few minutes)
<chillywilly> oh God no
<chillywilly> hmmm, so where does this license actually fall then?
<chillywilly> is it BSD-like?
<ajmitch> compiere public license is MPL with only a couple of modifications
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> yea, I am loving it already
<chillywilly> NOT
<ajmitch> Compiere, Inc can roll your changes into a proprietary product
<chillywilly> yipppeee
<No9> GNUE worries me as the site says the application server is not in production stage yet....
Action: ajmitch looks at GNU's license list for details of MPL
<ajmitch> chillywilly: quick! hack the appserver into production status! :)
<chillywilly> yes sir
<No9> hee hee
<rdean> my guess is that the oracle dependencies are probably incurred in SQL....although I haven't looked into the code to see
<ajmitch> chillywilly: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/netscape-npl.html
<chillywilly> that's not MPL thgouh
<chillywilly> though
<chillywilly> M is Mozilla right?
<ajmitch> read the page
<rdean> yep...
<rdean> oracle specificity is derived from using Oracle extensions to SQL
<chillywilly> blech
<chillywilly> dude, isn't mozilla trying to GPL the code now?
<chillywilly> I thought there was an article where they were trying to track down a couple developers
<chillywilly> so they could make the change
<chillywilly> brb
<No9> has anyone used GNUE commercially?  i mean installed at their own customer site
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> some have
<No9> I realised that most potentials i have been meeting up with wants a Multi national company doing their ERP... do you guys get the same response?
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<ajmitch> hi jcater
<jcater> hi
<No9> I realised that most potentials i have been meeting up with wants a Multi national company doing their ERP... do you guys get the same response trying to propose open source? 
Action: ajmitch doesn't know, sorry
<No9> ok
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<ajmitch> jcater might have been able to answer, or dneighbo if he's around
<No9> well... good sign I was reading http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882 and I am downloading python now to try a few lines of code... thanks guys.
<ajmitch> :)
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