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<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> lo
<ajmitch> how be you?
<psu> i b fine
<ajmitch> that be good
<psu> how goes the GEAS stuff that you & the chillmeister are working on? 
<ajmitch> bah, poorly
<ajmitch> i'm not sure where to start 
<psu> i used to have the same problem with my degree essays
<ajmitch> :)
<psu> I used to just start anywhere, even if 90% of time I threw first para away
<ajmitch> yeah
Action: ajmitch starts by listening to U2
<psu> looking to ramp up for a release this weekend hopefully
<ajmitch> perhaps maybe :)
<psu> for Forms/Designer/Common/Navigator/Reports
<ajmitch> why navigator? is that usable?
<psu> Hey, we *could* release reinhard's appserver stubs as well, I suppose
<ajmitch> perhaps
<psu> as long as none of us have to be in the channel to deal with the queries
<ajmitch> everyone but me seems to have done work on it
Action: psu wonders if the comparatively high standard of much free s/w
<psu> is because the authors know they have to do their own tech support
<Isomer> heh
<psu> whereas in prop world, the developers know that help desk have to deal w/problems
<ajmitch> probably
<psu> & they never meet an end use themselves ever
<psu> user
<Isomer> more likely that the programmers get badgered into fixing things
<Isomer> than the threat of being badgered to fix things
<ajmitch> in prop. world, coders are more likely to code for money
<esands> more likely its becuase free/oss developers want to use their own applications
<ajmitch> instead of doing what they are interesting in
<psu> esands: so they become their own "nightmare" users...
<psu> Having been involved with prop s/w help desk from both sides
<esands> No doubt. 8)
<psu> I am always impressed at the speed with which we get people sorted here
<ajmitch> yes, it is quite good
<ajmitch> i'm rather impressed with the quality & depth of the KC
<psu> help desk support is like sex - the more you pay for it, the worse it gets
<ajmitch> KC's a great way for me to catch up on stuff i miss on irc
<psu> heh
<psu> another monster this week 
<ajmitch> & i know others appreciate it greatly
<psu> already up to 50k with 2 days to go
<ajmitch> yes, GNUe is speeding up & rolling ahead like a juggernaut!
<esands> The KCs are the main reason I'm looking at gnue at the moment. Makes it easy to follow the deve trend
<ajmitch> see, i told you they're good, psu :)
Action: psu blushes
<psu> GNUe is an important project in lots of ways
<psu> firstly, we are a significant part of GNU's overall ambition to have a GNU alternative to 
<psu> all major areas of computer s/w
<psu> secondly, we are that bizarre thing, f ree s/w project with a biz model that 
<psu> actually works
<ajmitch> yeah, weird isn't it
<psu> as a typical ERP project 
<ajmitch> could be up against the MS juggernaut soon ;)
<psu> will be, like, half a million for licenses, two million for consultancy
<psu> well, I'm perfectly happy to forgo the 1/2 million and just collect the rest, thanks
<psu> since I'm not having to pay VAR fees for the s/ w anyway
<ajmitch> :)
Action: ajmitch would gladly use 1/2 a million
<psu> Also, access to the source is a fundamental principle of free s/w
<psu> but in many projects it's a slightly theoretical principle
<psu> other than for the fun(!) of it, there's no real need to hack, say, emacs source
<psu> but
Action: ajmitch would go blind hacking that
<psu> in the "real world" there are people customising ERP projects every day.
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<psu> In a sense, ERP s/w is often closer to the free s/w model than they might like to admit
<psu> i.e. the license fees are secondary to the consultancy income
<gontran> psu: thanks for doing KC -- and making me famous!
<ajmitch> welcome, gontran
<psu> there is a certain amount of access to source for people to hack 
<psu> etc etc
<gontran> ajmitch: :)
<psu> hi gontran
Action: ajmitch falls at gontran's feet in blissful adoration
<gontran> whot!
<ajmitch> "can i have your autograph?"
<esands> If you are paying 2.5 mill, would you be going across something like SAP?  Not Microsoft who's erp s/w AFAICT is targetted at SMEs.
<psu> anyway, I'd better stop now before I turn into dneighbo ;-)
<gontran> where has the traffic been?
<gontran> i feel giddy
<psu> not that that would be a bad thing...
<ajmitch> hehe
<gontran> can you make your mouth like this ...
<gontran>  heh!
<ajmitch> psu: why am i quoted so much? i never do anything? :)
<psu> ajmitch: the answer is... the question is the answer ;-)
<psu> esands: One of the plus points of GNUe
<gontran> gahd i missed this action 
<psu> is that we should scale so well
<psu> at one end, you can run Forms, Appserver & d/b all together on one PC
<psu> for a pointlessly over-powered Sage/Quicken/Quickbooks clone
<psu> not saying that's our market, but people could 
<esands> psu: I guess its still to be seen, but things do look promising. 8)
<psu> and with free s/w we can't stop them
<gontran> psu: that's 'pricelessly' overpowered :)
<psu> at the other end, I don't see why GNUe shouldn't be going 
<psu> head to head
<psu> with the JBOPS
<ajmitch> with the Big Boys?
<gontran> jugular
<psu> & winning wherever people care about freedom and/or free beer
<ajmitch> JBOPS?
<psu> as opposed to the reassurance of a shiny name
<psu> JBOPS =
Action: ajmitch cares about freedom & low price
<psu> JD Edwards, Baan, Oracle, PeopleSoft, SAP
<ajmitch> freedom first, tho
<ajmitch> ah, ok
<ajmitch> the Big Boys then
<esands> psu: In a sense every ERP has to be customised somewhat. Since no business process is exactly the same across entities.
Action: ajmitch needs to get to work on the appserver
<psu> esands: yep
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<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<psu> unless you take the Oracle/SAP route of changing the biz process to match the s/w
<ajmitch> ugh
<psu> which, to be fair, if your existing biz process is naff
<gontran> huge niche there
<psu> (e.g.because you adopted it for your *previous* s/w)
<psu> may be no bad thing
<esands> psu: there is always that anyway
<ajmitch> reinhard: how's the appserver looking now?
<psu> i heard a rumour it serves donuts already ;-)
<ajmitch> not for me :)
<ajmitch> failed some DB authentication
<psu> DB = dough bakery?
<ajmitch> postgresql
<esands> a support question to interrupt the flow. ;)  When using the designer (wizard) to create a form I assume you have to first setup the database/table
<psu> at this stage, yes
<psu> If you already have a full database
<psu> you can just point the wizard at it
<psu> and it will offer you choice of tables 
<ajmitch> i'd like to have a designer for business objects that talks to the appserver which can create the db schema
<esands> Yeah, I figured that bit.  Does it quite nicely
<psu> The Appserver will be the tool that actually sets up databases
<ajmitch> of course jcater will say that's bloat
<esands> Esp adding additional tables
<psu> The inetntion is for Designer to become our all purpose designer 
<psu> as you might guess from the name ;-)
<psu> So today it designs forms 
<Isomer> Singing dancing designer!
<psu> it should also be able to 
<psu> design reports, naviation and, yes, business objects
<ajmitch> cool
<psu> at the end of the day it's a generic visual XML authoring tool
<ajmitch> who actually knows the code to designer?
<psu> the emacs of GNUe
<psu> jcater
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> some more people (pref not me :)
Action: psu should try writing Kernel Cousins in Designer ;-)
<ajmitch> need to get onto it & figure out how to add them things
<psu> what's even more scary is 
<psu> that's not necess such a stupid idea
<ajmitch> hehehe
<gontran> :)
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<reinhard> morning all
<gontran> mornin reinhard
<reinhard> ajmitch: for the appserver test program you have to set up pgsql
<reinhard> so that your unix username is known to postgres
<reinhard> and you need no password for your username
<ajmitch> that sucks
<reinhard> sure
<reinhard> i know
<ajmitch> cos i'll need to change stuff that uses my username & a password for login :)
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> you could also change the password in the .py file
<ajmitch> that could work
<reinhard> grep for "(none)"
<ajmitch> or i could try & make it pick it up from gnue.conf?
<ajmitch> or is it connections.conf that it should be in
<reinhard> not sure if that is a good idea
<ajmitch> i know :)
<reinhard> we actually need to decide what user the appserver will use to connect to the database
<ajmitch> horrendously insecure
<psu> logically, usename = geas
<psu> default p/w = geas
<psu> and tell people to
<reinhard> the question is: if i (username rm) log into the appserver
<psu> change the second right away
<reinhard> should the appserver log into the db with rm or with geas
<reinhard> IMHO geas (and i think at least psu agrees)
Action: ajmitch has a 'gnue' user setup for postgres
<reinhard> um yes
<psu> geas is like apache 
<reinhard> gnue is even better than geas
<psu> (prob bad e.g., but the one that springs to mind)
<ajmitch> yeah
<reinhard> so instead of breaking my brain about all these issues
<reinhard> i decided to use no password for the time being :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> shall we try & decide on something then?
<reinhard> try what?
<ajmitch> argue, debate, hit each other around until we come to agreement on the best method for accessing the DB & storing the password
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> works for me
<ajmitch> so where should the password be stored?
Action: psu would go for a non-personal ID (gnue, geas) & a "real" p/w
<reinhard> sure
<ajmitch> the appserver will need to be able to access it to connect
<reinhard> security must be handeled by appserver not by database
<reinhard> in 3-tier setup
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> but do you want a password in cleartext in a conffile?
<reinhard> so we will eventually have personal id's for several users that have direct sql access to the database
<reinhard> with restrictions
<ajmitch> interesting
<reinhard> plus a "geas" password with very much permission
<reinhard> um a "geas" user with a very secret password
Action: ajmitch suggests the password not be "password"
<reinhard> "secret"
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> i know! we can build in an "override" password so it can be used in the movies! :)
<psu> whatever the default p/w is, you can bet 90% of installs will never change it
<ajmitch> which is utterly stupid
<ajmitch> what do you think of having some forms written for geas administration?
<ajmitch> simple point-n-drool interface
<reinhard> the question now really is where to store the password
<ajmitch> yep
<esands> What's the best documentation for using designer, learning how to create a small app/form.  (FX tracker to track future USD payments to budgeted NZDUSD FX rate, FEC details compared with daily rates and historical information. All done in a spreadsheet at present.)
<esands> designer/doc/DevelopersGuide-Forms.lyx isn't very detailed
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<ajmitch> esands: man, i just noticed you're in NZ using the same ISP as me - how blind am i...
<ajmitch> esands: auckland?
<esands> yep.  Although win.co.nz got bought by max internet recently and I use paradise in other places. 
<ajmitch> yeah, i noticed the buyout :)
Action: ajmitch is in dunedin
<esands> Be interesting to see if Max are as clueful as Win.
<ajmitch> reinhard: how about storing some encrypted version of the p/w in a file?
<ajmitch> yeah
<esands> Yeah, I noticed that from the gnue web page.
<esands> You got many people in NZ using gnue?
<ajmitch> not sure
<ajmitch> i'm just a CS student :)
<reinhard> ajmitch: good idea
<ajmitch> interested in possibly using it at work
<reinhard> ajmitch: how will we decrypt it?
<reinhard> i mean
<ajmitch> esands: noticed what from the gnue web page
<reinhard> where will we store the passphrase?
<reinhard> :)
<ajmitch> reinhard: yeah, i know, that's what i thought of
<esands> ajmitch: That there where a few developers in the south island
<reinhard> maybe we store the passphrase in an encrypted file ;)
<ajmitch> esands: ah, ok, a team from treshna in christchurch worked on GEASv1
<esands> What package do I need to install on debian to get it to play nice with docbook style?
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<esands> ajmitch: Yeah that was in the history document.  So you aren't related to them at all?
<ajmitch> nah
<ajmitch> i'm an independant entity :)
<esands> ic
<reinhard> not totally independant
<reinhard> he also is a member of the "community of people named andrew"
<reinhard> :)
<esands> heh
<reinhard> re our password discussion
<reinhard> i see only one chance
<reinhard> store the password in a file where only the user "gnue" has read access
<reinhard> and start the appserver with suid flag
<ajmitch> that may work
<ajmitch> but how do we start the appserver with suid flag since it's a python app?
Action: gontran has a major breakthrough: unwanted extra tabs
<esands> the mysql admin scripts do something similar to that on debian
<esands> ie. /root/.my.cnf
Action: ajmitch guesses "su -c gacvs gnue" or similar?
<reinhard> write a "wrapper" binary?
<ajmitch> yeah, i guess
<ajmitch> one that loads the python .so or .dll & loads geas, or exec's python?
<reinhard> one that exec's appserver.py and dies immediately (so it doesn't use resources all the time)
<ajmitch> ok
<reinhard> however this file with the password in it
<reinhard> couldn't we really use connections.conf for that?
<ajmitch> we could 
<esands> To answer my previos query about docbook layout for lyx under debain:-
<esands> [apt(apt@EMU.RES.CMU.EDU)] Debian Search of 'docbook-book' (2 shown): (/usr/share/doc-base/docbook-book) in
<esands>                            doc/docbook-book ;; (/usr/share/lyx/layouts/docbook-book.layout) in
<esands>                            contrib/text/lyx,contrib/text/lyx-cjk.
<ajmitch> ah, sorry esands :)
<esands> 8)
<ajmitch> you're YADU? 
<ajmitch> yet another debian user
<esands> Of course. 
<reinhard> ajmitch: the correct word for a debian user is
<esands> Since about 1.3 or some
<reinhard> "professional"
<reinhard> ;)
<esands> heh
<esands> Of course lyx seems to be ignoring that layout file. Stupid lyx....
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch is a debian newbie
<esands> Here's a useful tip: "/join #debian-bots; /msg apt find filename". Very useful especially when compiling source and trying to find the package for a particular include.h file 
<Isomer> heh
<Isomer> IRC the true source of all things wise
<Isomer> which are however, mostly bots :)
<esands> heh
<ajmitch> yeah, i know that one :)
Action: ajmitch has only been using debian for a year & a half tho
<ajmitch> Isomer: we need more kiwis in here
<Isomer> yeah
<Isomer> more kiwis the better :)
<esands> heh
<Isomer> ajmitch: did you read about what they are doing in Peru?
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> interesting letter-writing
<Isomer> and what they are trying to get the government to do?
<ajmitch> try & get them to use free software thruout the govt?
<Isomer> yeah
<ajmitch> someone should smack a few politicians & bureaucrats around in wellington with this stuff
<Isomer> nzoss?
<ajmitch> yep
Action: ajmitch is just reading that list now
<Isomer> I don't think I'm subb'd
<Isomer> theres been a few lists like that created of late that I sub'd to
<Isomer> that had a bit of irrelevant chatter then died out
<ajmitch> yeah
<Isomer> has nzoss done any better?
<ajmitch> am reading opensource@openz.org
<ajmitch> i think it's still doing ok
Action: ajmitch apt-get installs spam-assassin
<Isomer> heh
<Isomer> I should install that on our mailserver
Action: Isomer is looking at fuse
<ajmitch> spam is a nuisance
<Isomer> agreed
<Isomer> although the only major spam I get is people sending me virii
<Isomer> with the occasional thing that I was silly enough to sign up to
<esands> That's what webmail accounts are for.  Most spam directed at me goes there.  
<Isomer> yeah
<Isomer> except I trust them even less than the spammers in most cases
<Isomer> autoconf hates me
Action: Isomer ponders gcc *.c -o foo
<Isomer> Ah ha!
Action: Isomer does battle with autoconf and his evil friend, automake 
<ajmitch> ok, spamassassin seems to be working
<reinhard> Isomer: ooohhh wait until the source of the dark force appears:
<reinhard> libtool!!
<ajmitch> hehe
<Isomer> Nooooo!
<Isomer> such evil is the realm of story only, surely!
<gontran> heh
<gontran> nstti tests are starting to work :)
<gontran> http://gontran.net/pub/gnue/no_swearing.jpg
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<Isomer> hmm, coda's funky
<ajmitch> heh, never tried it
<Isomer> just been reading about it tonight
<Isomer> maybe I'll configure/set it up tomorrow
<Isomer> it's got source.list lines <evil grin>
<ajmitch> uh oh
<Isomer> deb http://www.coda.cs.cmu.edu/pub/coda/linux debian/binary-$(ARCH)/
Action: Isomer still thinks they could do better
<ajmitch> scary
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<ajmitch> hi jamest
<jamest> howdy
<jamest> unfriggen believable
<jamest> I've been trying to get an ISP to update their clients DNS records since the start of april
<jamest> i figured by now they'd have done it
<jamest> of course not
<jamest> i think it's time to find them a new domain hosting service
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<ajmitch> ah, ISP service (or the lack of)
<jamest> yeah
<jamest> they outsource their dns maintenance to a buddy of the owners
<esands> Isomer: have a look at intermezzo
<reinhard> bbl
reinhard (~rm@M693P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Don't believe in miracles -- rely on them"
<Isomer> esands: hmm? 'k!
<esands> Isomer: http://www.inter-mezzo.org/ - redesign/reengineered version of coda. 
<ajmitch> it's in late 2.4 kernels, too
<Isomer> yeah, reading it now
<Isomer> interesting
<Isomer> oh well
<Isomer> that gives me heaps to think about
<Isomer> but I'm walking dead here
<Isomer> I'm going ot crawl into bed
<Isomer> and play dead
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> night Isomer
<Isomer> thanks for your suggestions esands, I'll look very carefully at Intermezzo :)
<Isomer> sleep well ajmitch when you finally give up on trying to stay awake :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jamest> l8r
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<sledge_> hi dudes
<ajmitch> hey sledge_
<sledge_> awake? :)
<ajmitch> nope :)
<sledge_> seen gontrans screenshot?
<sledge_> looks nice :)
<ajmitch> what is it?
<sledge_> gontran.net/pub/gnue/no_swearing.jpg
<ajmitch> yes, but what is it? 
<sledge_> nstti shot
Action: ajmitch is still not enlightened :)
<sledge_> nstti?
<sledge_> console forms client
<ajmitch> ok, thanks
<ajmitch> now that i know what it is, looks good :)
<sledge_> in the logs, i've seen that you want to mess with designer
<ajmitch> uh oh, sledge_ has been reading logs... ;)
Action: ajmitch ducks
<sledge_> the dark side of the force always reads the logs :)
<sledge_> i should configure my host to send me a pager message when someone mentions designer :)
<ajmitch> you a designer fan?
<sledge_> not in its current state - i seek to improve it, as far as i can understand the code
<ajmitch> ok
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<sledge_> hey ToyMan :)
<ToyMan> morning sledge_
<sledge_> morning?
<ToyMan> USof A
<ToyMan> upstate NY
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> almost morning here
<ToyMan> damn! all these foreigners around here!!!
<sledge_> you get up early? *shudder* :)
<ToyMan> 5 AM
<sledge_> sick
<ajmitch> furriners?
<ajmitch> i'll have you know there's 3 of us NZers here
<ToyMan> ah, that's how you spell it
<ToyMan> kiwi's!!!
<sledge_> and three german-speakin dudes (siesel, reinhard and me)
<ajmitch> yep, us kiwis
<ToyMan> joimens!!!
<ajmitch> sledge_: yeah, and how much bigger is germany compared to NZ? :)
<sledge_> ajmitch: at least bigger brains, our government supports free software *duck*
Action: ajmitch thwaps sledge_
<sledge_> ouch
<ToyMan> *cough* *cough*... now if we're talkin *size* here...
<sledge_> US guys don't like to talk about size, eh?
<ToyMan> sledge_: did they go open source in the gov?
<ajmitch> hehe
<ToyMan> I only caught the start of that story
<sledge_> ToyMan: not entirely, no obligation to use FS, but quite some positive signals (120.000 US-$ for GPG, official interest and some conferences on that topic)
<ToyMan> ha! sledge_: I can make mine 12" long... (that's 30.48 cm to you)
<ToyMan> ...just fold it in half
<sledge_> ToyMan: i got a joke there ...
<ToyMan> sledge_: that's good, there's hope for germans
<ToyMan> well, no open source for us barbarians in the gov...
<sledge_> inches ... how archaic ...
<ToyMan> heh, it's a mess here.. when I design new machinery, I have to do the whole thing in 2 systems of measurement
<sledge_> you know that the last mars mission failed because someone confused the two measurement systems?
<ToyMan> yup.. big booboo
<sledge_> "oh - your library's function works with inches?" - "yes" - "oh-oh"
<ToyMan> actually there's things I like and don't like about both systems
<sledge_> hey, food is ready here
<sledge_> ToyMan: what are the bad sides of the metric system?
Action: sledge_ salivates
<ToyMan> it's not based on the human form, and it doesn't do fractions well
<sledge_> human form?
<ToyMan> the measurements in the english system were built up over history
<ToyMan> in a crazy sort of way
<ToyMan> but all based on the size of the human body
<sledge_> ah, now i understand
<ToyMan> metric system is *way* more rational
<sledge_> i didn't know that
<ToyMan> which is good... and bad
<ToyMan> always two sides to the coin, i guess
<sledge_> i think that measurement systems influence the thinking of its users
<ToyMan> definately
<sledge_> now i really gotta go
<sledge_> book tip on media influencing thinking: Marshal McLuhan, Understanding Media
<ToyMan> working with fractions is actually easier than decimal for your avg. construction worker 
<ToyMan> heh, sledge_, that was news about 25 yrs ago
<sledge_> i didn't know that you're so familiar with that kind of lecture :)
<sledge_> pitily most people today haven't read it, though i think they should have
<ToyMan> Noam Chomsky is also good
<sledge_> (btw, it's 35 years - understanding media was written in 1964)
<ToyMan> ah, just guessing
<ToyMan> brb
<sledge_> burp?
<sledge_> i haven't had the time to read chomsky, but i intend to to so, after reading brave new world and sophie's world (and an tutorial on electronic engineering :)
<sledge_> any special book of him that is a must read?
<ToyMan> brb = be right back
<sledge_> ah
<ToyMan> and a good Chomsky book is Manufacturing Consent
<ToyMan> brb
<sledge_> thanks, bye
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<ajmitch> hey jbailey
Action: drochaid is back (gone 09:09:13)
<jbailey> Heya ajmitch
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<sledge_> re
Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
<sledge_> old story
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<Arturas> Hello
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<StyXman> hi.
<Arturas> hello
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<StyXman> what are phaseInit's for?
<StyXman> O'm looking into GObject...
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<siesel> hello gnue!
<siesel> hi reinhard.
<siesel> reinhard: yesterday i've talked with chilly about odmg.txt.
<siesel> ..and found a book on my bookshelf about object databases. Although its seems that just chilly like odmg.txt. I found many good ideas in it.
<reinhard> siesel: hi
<reinhard> siesel: i like odmg, too
<siesel> great. 
<reinhard> that's why i tried to make our appserver a subset of it's specification
<reinhard> however i feel a strong urge to only implement what's needed
<siesel> you mean, you want the appserver today and not tomorow.
<siesel> or do you think about performance issues.
<reinhard> no i think about the general law
<reinhard> "something is perfect not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to remove"
<reinhard> which sums up all issues from performance over maintainability to implementation speed
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> f.e. I would like to implement views. That would allow to handle attribut and method access issues on an object access level instead of complicated attribut and method acces rules.
<reinhard> maybe i didn't read odmg _that_ closely...
<reinhard> could you explain what that means?
<siesel> Its like views in postgres. You define an object which is an wrapper for the real object, but which only allows read access (f.e.)
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> what would we gain?
<siesel> now everybody gets access permission to that new object (the view) and just root has access privilige for the other one.
<reinhard> i mean can you give an example where we could use that
<reinhard> argh must go
<reinhard> bbl
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<siesel> f.e. you have a object list (=database table) called Projects (name, owner, bla bla) 
<siesel> reinhard: i know you read the log: so i just finish.
<jamest> StyXman: the system has to come up in stages (phases)
<jamest> a single init routine per object was making us jump thru hoops to get things initialized in a sane mannor
<siesel> but you just allow root to access that object. then you create a VIEW on that object list which filters out all Projects which are not owned by the user who access that view. you can give everybody access rights to this view. So everybody can access its own Projects.
<StyXman> jamest: aha, so you load the objects at the beat of a central clock or something...
<StyXman> s/load/init/
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<StyXman> uh, no, now that I see GObjects.phaseInit and _phaseInit I see that is kind of both.
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<StyXman> if I update vis cvs, should I run setup-cvs.py again?
Action: pattieja is back (gone 00:40:27)
<dneighbo> generally it wont hurt
<dneighbo> but most of the time its not necessary
<dneighbo> a bit has changed so i would probably run it
<dneighbo> its likely you might have to delete your gnue.conf file as well
<ra3vat> Arturas: you here?
<Arturas> bye
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<ra3vat> ah
<nickr> la de da
<jamest> dneighbo: your autofillBySequence works again
<jamest> it was technically never broken
<jamest> however I broke the preInsert trigger than ran it :)
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<jamest> psu: howdy, how goes the site?
<psu> hi
<dneighbo> ah
<psu> still finishing off some TODOs
<dneighbo> cant test until later tonight
<dneighbo> can you email a smaple that works
<dneighbo> as i wont be back probably until after you are asleep
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<jamest> on the block
<jamest> <trigger type="PRE-INSERT">
<jamest>   widgetname.autofillBySequence('seqName')
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<jamest>   print "Easy eh?"
<jamest> </trigger>
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<gontran> lo
<dneighbo> sure :)
<dneighbo> thats what you said last time ;)
Action: dneighbo has this 'take the green pill' feeling ;)
<dneighbo> how did things go last night 're getting ready for release?'
<jamest> ok i guess
<jamest> i started to work on prequery
<jamest> which is easy to add but messes up the UI on master/detil
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<dneighbo> bumber
<dneighbo> i hope to maybe do some testing tonight after church
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<psu> back
<dneighbo> anyone running new open office yet?
Action: gontran looks around
<gontran> giving it a whirl?
Nick change: reinhard -> reinhard-away
<jamest> yes
<jamest> our office mgr is using it to do dept spreadsheets and basic typing
<dneighbo> 1.0
<dneighbo> how do they like
<dneighbo> i have been running different builds
<dneighbo> but had avoided 1.0 as all download clogged but found a mirror now (Finally loooked) 
<dneighbo> http://borft.student.utwente.nl/openoffice/1.0.0/
<dneighbo> seems to run pretty decently
<jamest> um
<jamest> dude
<gontran> it all runs decent on the green pills :
<gontran> )
<jamest> i posted my mirror in IRC on release day
<jamest> :)
<jamest> cause i think uz guyz iz swellz
<gontran> yup
Action: gontran passes jamest the moonshine
<gontran> dneighbo: didya see my picture?
Action: gontran wags tail
<StyXman> how do I make GDebug work? I just installed from cvs...
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<jamest> gnueapp --devel-level #
Action: gontran runs over to jamest
<gontran> jamest: didya see my picture?
<drochaid> dneighbo: jamest did an all .. cause it was the only way I managed to get OOo 1.0 down :)
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<dneighbo> gontran_4walk where is your picture
<gontran_4walk> heh. http://gontran.net/pub/gnue/no_searing.jpg i think
<gontran_4walk> s/no_searing/no_swearing/
<dneighbo> btw: roflmao about your menu.lst comment
<gontran_4walk> ah :) thank you.  I'm trying to keep up.
<gontran_4walk> craig white is gonna have to start paying percentages of what he gets to the list from his consulting 
<gontran_4walk> talk about a private help line
<gontran_4walk> doesn't he know he needs to use IRC for that!
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> they need an irc channel
<dneighbo> it would cut down on 'noise' from the list
<gontran_4walk> yeah #pllg
<gontran_4walk> phoenix linux lusers group
<dneighbo> pglug
<gontran_4walk> ah right pgllg
<gontran_4walk> :)
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<gontran_groaning> fex irccops
<gontran_groaning> just trying to squeez out that rawhide
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<gontran_4walk> ah
Nick change: gontran_4walk -> gontran
<psu> In the dependancies download section of the website, 
<psu> presumably we would only ever include things that were not just freely redistributable
<psu> but also free 
<psu> (as otherwise they would not be a GNUe dependancy)
<psu> but not necess GPL?
<jamest> i would guess so
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<dneighbo> im not sure i follow
<dneighbo> we should not depend on anything that is not free
<dneighbo> or the FSF will be on us like fly of doo doo
<dneighbo> in the dependencies section i think we should be mirroring binaries
<dneighbo> of current dependencies of gnue
<dneighbo> so say rpm's or .exe's for
<dneighbo> wxPython/wxGTK
<dneighbo> python
<dneighbo> etc etc
<dneighbo> it helps for 'tech support' to not have to point people all over to get stuff
<dneighbo> imho
<dneighbo> i think i made stuff under my home dir for python2.1 and redhat
<dneighbo> that had most of the rpms 
<dneighbo> we really need to do it for others as well
<dneighbo> jamest you here?
<psu> ok 
<dneighbo> how did you do open office on linux
<dneighbo> install wise
<dneighbo> you do network install?
<dneighbo> how do multiuser install work?
<jamest> i used to
Action: dneighbo vaguely remembers star office was weird
<dneighbo> and ahd you run a little setup for each user
<jamest> then just yesterday i added 
<jamest> deb ftp://ftp.vpn-junkies.de/openoffice unstable main contrib
<jamest> to my apt sources file
<dneighbo> jamest: ok but how does that 'work'
<dneighbo> i.e. if you get it then its usable for all users?
<jamest> apt-get install openoffice.org
<dneighbo> smartass
<dneighbo> thats not what i meant :)
<jamest> then openoffice command sets you up
<dneighbo> ok
<jamest> if you're a new user
<jamest> on windows I still do net install
<psu> I was just working on basis that the boilerplate for that directory could assume all s/w was free (for reasons you state)
<psu> but not necess GPL
<dneighbo> psu: i think all software we offer for download should be 'free software'
<dneighbo> but correct, not necessarily GPL or GPL compatiable
<dneighbo> jamest: where did you find that open office apt source?
<dneighbo> i asked jbailey the other day and he said there wasnt one just yet but should be soon
<dneighbo> also, if you have a magic place for these things anychance you have a source that will get Xfree86 4.2.x?
<dneighbo> chillly gave me one for flash a while back
<dsmith> jamest: Is that the correct openoffice sorurces.list setting?
<jamest> flash is apt getable?
<jamest> my magic source was groups.google.com
<gontran> someone clue me in on dcl?  do i use it ,how where ... ? 
<gontran> whatisit
<dneighbo> flash is apt-get able
<dneighbo> deb http://marillat.free.fr/ unstable main
<dneighbo> is where you can get flash
<gontran> flash client for forms
Action: dneighbo runs screaming
<dneighbo> noooo
<dneighbo> gontran DCL == our project managment/bug tracking
<gontran> it would be great "sizzle" :)
<dneighbo> you probably shoudl have a developers account there
<dneighbo> for now you can certainly send bugs by doing
Action: gontran blinks wildeyed
<jamest> dneighbo: it work w/ kde?
<dneighbo> productname-support@gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> what work with kde?
<dneighbo> flash?
<dneighbo> you mean konq?
<dneighbo> im not sure it works with mozilla
<gontran> dneighbo got it.  way to browse dcl ?
<dneighbo> i cant test kong from where
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/dclgw
<dneighbo> user: guest
<dneighbo> pass: guest
<dneighbo> iirc
<dneighbo> btw: konq doesnt seem to support authenticating proxies
<gontran> yeah that got it. thx
<dneighbo> flashplugin - Macromedia Flash plugin installer
<dneighbo> microcode.ctl - Intel IA32 CPU Microcode Utility
<dneighbo> flashplayer-mozilla - Macromedia Flash Player
<dneighbo> jamest: if konq supports flash
<dneighbo> you can probalby apt-get flashplugin
<dneighbo> then install it for konq
<gontran> for the record. i was kidding about flash forms. sortof. 8)
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<dneighbo> ratmice , interesting
<dneighbo> jamest: got openoffice deb
<dneighbo> but it only lets me see openoffice program as root
<dneighbo> maybe its a path thing
<jamest> huh?
<jamest> type rehash in your user window
<jamest> then 
<jamest> openoffice
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<nickr> hrm
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~$ rehash
<dneighbo> bash: rehash: command not found
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~$ 
<jamest> open a new shell
<jamest> as "it works for me"
<dneighbo> yeah
<dneighbo> i shut shell down
<dneighbo> opened new one and it works
<gontran> nasty debian luvers
<dneighbo> http://debianluvers.net
<gontran> doh!
<ratmice> hi dneigh
<ratmice> so is there any way to get gnue under debian stable?
<gontran> hot desbian lovers XXX
<ratmice> it seemed like the glib1.2 was too old
Action: gontran looks at blank screen where http://debianluvers.net should be
<nickr> I think getting it on debian stable is more of a python issue
<drochaid> don't get it on with debian
<drochaid> that's just sick
<gontran> FREE desbian orgy X
<jamest> ratmice: you'd have to install most the dependencies by hand
<jamest> python > 2.0
<jamest> and all the python modules for it
<jamest> i haven't checked but if the install docs still reference pyxml you can ignore that dependency
<gontran> jamest you could make a shell script that does it all!
<jamest> I could?
<gontran> setup_gnue_debianstable.sh
<jamest> I'd rather hold out for woody :)
Action: gontran giggles
<jamest> but i imagine it can be done
<gontran> yes
<gontran> jamest: did you see my screenshot?  (looks around) got some more test features working.
<gontran> after i b0rked it some
Nick change: gontran -> gontran_away
<dneighbo> jamest is autofillbysequence valid for all db drivers?
<dneighbo> or only postgres?
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<chillywilly> peter
<psu> me
<Isomer> him
<chillywilly> KC dude man
<psu> ok, the website has two sections for docs
<psu> One for USer Docs and one for Developer Docs
<Isomer> Useful and Useless?
<Isomer> Recent and Old?
<psu> at the moment they point to ths same place
<Isomer> English and Other?
<psu> "I speak fluent gibberish"
<Isomer> Drug Induced, Other Induced?
<psu> Assuming that this is a useful distinction 
<psu> which I think it is
<psu> what are our working definitions of "user" and "developer"?
<psu> I would suggest
<Isomer> user someone that doesn't know python
<Isomer> developer someone that wishes they didn't know python
<chillywilly> lol
<psu> Developer = someone who has cvs access or is likely to hack source themselves
<chillywilly> somehow I have cvs write access
<psu> User = someone who wants to write an application using the normal forms/designer with standard triggers etc
<psu> problem with this defn is that I can't think of much that would be in the Developer section 
<chillywilly> all internal and hacking guides would be inth ere
<chillywilly> of which there isn't much right now
<chillywilly> bbl
Action: chillywilly is away: dinne
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
<dneighbo> psu: notice the developers one says coming someday :)
<dneighbo> the idea was 'developer' documentation belonged in one place and user documentation in another
<dneighbo> at this point i would say we have very little 'user' documentation
<dneighbo> and even then its not 100% crystal clear
<dneighbo> as we have 'development' tools
<dneighbo> so should the docs on how to use the development tools be user or developer docs :)
<psu> several layers of development -
Action: dneighbo had always wanted documentation t obe much better aligned
<psu> a) developing the tools 
<dneighbo> but noone listnes to me :)
<psu> b) developing the applications 
<dneighbo> i would to see documentation by product
<dneighbo> so say there is a FORMS documentation page
<psu> c) developing non-GNUe apps
<dneighbo> and a DESIGNER documentation page etc
<dneighbo> and then in each one of those pages there is 
<dneighbo> developer and end user sections
<dneighbo> same for the packages
<dneighbo> but then there is global doc page
<dneighbo> that shows all developer or end user
<dneighbo> the biggest suck is we wont standardize on doing docs a single way
<dneighbo> so it makes things more of a bitch to automate
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<dneighbo> the original idea was to have compendiums built
<dneighbo> i.e. books built off the smaller documents
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<dneighbo> so one could say i want every document from gnue
<dneighbo> and get a fat old pdf file
<psu> That is the *only* problem with non-std doc formats
<psu> i.e. inability to produce a single big doc of everything
<dneighbo> well originally that was one reason people wanted docbook
<dneighbo> is it was good for compiling the documentation upwards
<dneighbo> but we have what we have so we deal with it
Action: drochaid likes pdf
<psu> As long as we can get the std output formats (HTML, PDF, PS) from the source(s)
Action: drochaid knows sod all about docbook
<psu> it's not too bad
<psu> and I'm not sure that a single fat book is desirable anyway
<ajmitch> ello
<dneighbo> psu: it gets asked for ALL the time
<dneighbo> most people dont like going all over the world trying to get information (our current state is REALLY bad)
<dneighbo> and downloading lots of little tidbits of information
<dneighbo> especially those that like to kill trees and read later
<psu> I think that big chunks is fine
<psu> but if you go up too far
<psu> it becomes meaningless
<psu> like doing an account balances enquiry for whole org
<psu> and complaining that it equals 0
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> im not sure i agree
Action: psu realises that would make a lot more sense if there were any other accts in the channel
<dneighbo> if you do indexing properly and chapters correctly
<dneighbo> when it rolls up
<dneighbo> its still relatively easy to find things
<dneighbo> psu: i wonder where you work where you have actually seen the right and left columns = 0 :)
<dneighbo> dont you know
<dneighbo> budgets balance
<dneighbo> financial dont (with out plug numbers) ;)
<psu> left & right columns - how 20th Century ;-)
Action: psu has been known to draw out the old T accounts on whiteboard when he gets very irate trying to explain things
<dneighbo> double entry accounting, whats that?
<psu> Enron
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<drochaid> double entry accounting? is someone trying to get me excited? :-D
<psu> double entry book-keeping is the clasic example of a model that effectively became a reality
<psu> the other one is Marxism
<psu> go figure
<psu> ;-)
<Isomer> heh
Nick change: gontran_away -> gontran
<drochaid> except no one has yet implemented marxism, only heavily altered variants of it
<gontran> import Marxism
Nick change: reinhard-away -> reinhard
<reinhard> night all
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<drochaid> gontran: surely apt-get install marxism ?
<psu> would that be free or non-free?
<gontran> drochaid: surely, if I used debian.  
<gontran> however in my case it would be
<gontran> emerge marxism
<gontran> using gentoo
<drochaid> psu: I think it would have to be free by definition ... but only if everyone else has it as well ;)
<gontran> heh
<drochaid> gentoo? isn't that a disease? ;)
<gontran> yeah, it's catching
<gontran> ;)
<gontran> specifically in this case, it would be emerge dev-python/Marxism; so that one could include 'import Marxism'[tm] in their scripts :)
<gontran> next thing you know pres butch will slap a tariff on it!
<gontran> a tariff on marxism!  what next!
<drochaid> s / dev-python / monty-python :)
<gontran> heh
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<gontran> run_montypython_bot.py
<drochaid> oh dear, a monty python bot
<drochaid> that would be surreal
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:58:37)
<ICJ> Hi!"
<ICJ> Hi!
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<chillywilly> debian is the only distro
<chillywilly> all others fall by the way side ;)
<chillywilly> I want to know who has time to compile every package
<sledge_> a compile farm, of course :)
<Isomer> heh
<sledge_> hi chillywilly :)
<chillywilly> howdy
<sledge_> i wonder how anyone can claim that there is another distro ;)
<ajmitch> simple
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<chillywilly> hi ajmitch
<sledge_> drochaid: hi dragon :)
<sledge_> damnit, it's 1:30am local time, i better start hacking or go to bed
<sledge_> ahm. the latter. bye.
<chillywilly> bye
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<gontran> dern reset
<gontran> chillywilly that's the beauty, IF you trust it to compile -- just start it and let it run while you entertain yourself otherwise. :)
<gontran> I want to know who has time to wait for every new package to be ,er, packaged?
<chillywilly> apt-get into it ;)
<gontran> like one of the j's pointed out, gentoo may be a good choice for adevel workstation -- but not for massive installations necessarily
<chillywilly> because they are packaging it while I am doing real work on my box because the compiler is not sucking resources ;)
<gontran> :)
<gontran> mul-ti-tasking os
<chillywilly> like GNU/Linux?
<gontran> yeah! like GNU/Linux
<chillywilly> besides Gentoo calls it "Linux" for that reason alone I wouldn't use it ;P
Action: gontran frowns
<gontran> i know
<gontran> I personally label it GNU/Linux _everywhere_ on my own installation
<gontran> i didn't say it wasn't created by fools!
<chillywilly> as far as compiling everything it seems to be the coolest distro if you want everything to be nice and optimized
<gontran> yeah, i've been pleased with the performance compred to a 486 or 586 optimized system
<gontran> anecdotally of course
<chillywilly> someone should make an optimized debian ;)
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<chillywilly> i686 arch packages
<gontran> i guess.  how long would that take to organize?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<chillywilly> I am not a debian developers
<chillywilly> s/s//
<chillywilly> I don't know how they do things
<gontran> you know, like how long since last major release? 
<gontran> not that there's anything wrong with that :)
<Isomer> that would be adding yet another arch to debian
<nickr> they totally changed the release process half way through.
<Isomer> they were saying before that they were having massive problems with the number of arches they have to support
<gontran> don't get me wrong... i believe in debian
<drochaid> chillywilly: or anyone else ... what do I need to add to which file to get apache to recognise index.php rather than displaying the directory listing for a dir that contains it?
<drochaid> gontran: but do you BELIEVE!!!!
Action: gontran looks around for snakes
Action: drochaid looks down at his ... no, maybe not
<gontran> drochaid: find the line in httpd.conf with index.htm index.html in it and add index.php
<drochaid> I thought it would be as simple as that, ta dood
<nickr> drochaid: DirectoryIndex
<nickr> drochaid: if you're in debian its in srm.conf
<gontran> drochaid: also make sure that you have the x options for php4 set
<gontran> that is: AddType application/x-httpd-php .php
<gontran> in the appropriate place
<Isomer> is there an option to apt to d/l the source, compile it and install it?
<Isomer> since then you could build your own optimised debian
Action: gontran nods
<gontran> heard about it during my zealous prostelizations
<chillywilly> apt-get -b source packagename
Action: gontran doesn't like the strange cult-like feel gentoo has taken on
<gontran> nor the guru necessarily
<Isomer> chillywilly: apt-get -b source package && dpkg -i package*.deb ?
<chillywilly> shea
<ajmitch> Isomer: chuck all the debs you build in a dir, run dpkg-scanpackages on them to make an apt repository
<ajmitch> so that you're not in rpm-like hell resolving dependencies ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> rpm-like hell ;)
<drochaid> gontran: yep, the AddType stuff was setup a couple of days ago, ta
<drochaid> thanks nickr
<nickr> np
<gontran> :)_
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<drochaid> yay, that's it .. thanks again all :)
Action: chillywilly takes a beak
<chillywilly> break even
<drochaid> leave my budgies beak alone!!!!
<chillywilly> heh, you would have a 'budgie' wouldn't you ;)
<drochaid> nah, it'd burst
<drochaid> bit like hamster and elephants you know
<drochaid> that's why they can't live in harmony
<chillywilly> wtf are you talking about?
<drochaid> you know me well enough to know you don't wanna know ;)
<chillywilly> who are you?
<drochaid> well that's way to philosophical for this time of the morning
<chillywilly> it's 7pm damnit
<chillywilly> ;P
<drochaid> my clock must be wrong then .. it thinks it's nearly 1am
<drochaid> otherwise known as 12am GMT
<chillywilly> Wed May  8 18:55:53 CDT 2002
<gontran> apt-get ntp
<drochaid> CDT == Central Disney Time? :)
Action: chillywilly rolls his eyes
Action: gontran attempts to speak this strange and foreign tounge
<drochaid> gle mhath gontran :)
<gontran> gle mhath
<gontran> means?
<drochaid> very good
<drochaid> iosh
<drochaid> ish even
<gontran> ok :)
<drochaid> tres bon
<chillywilly> CST6CDT
<chillywilly> that's my time zone
<drochaid> which means?
<gontran> good or it's good
<drochaid> I meant the time zone ;)
<gontran> candy now?
<drochaid> isn't she busy tonight?
<chillywilly> hey, but the best part about debian is the porn-get command ;)
<gontran> harharharhar
<gontran> :|
<gontran> that was for drochaid
<drochaid> chillywilly: obrigada :)
<chillywilly> alksj fhjhkjh97(*79879*&%$##$^^&^*
<gontran> ouch. chillywilly he's implying femininity!
<drochaid> did I? sod
<drochaid> chillywilly: obrigado :)
<drochaid> that better?
<gontran> guess that depends
<chillywilly> jlkjasdu)(*8h&y&^5$E$
Action: gontran runs off to a corner by himself
<drochaid> do I want to know what it depends on? :)
<drochaid> HEY .. STAY OUT OF MY CORNER!!!!
Action: chillywilly smacks drochaid upside the head with his 'dependence'
<chillywilly> brb
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<drochaid> hey jamest_
<jamest_> hi
<gontran> jamest :)
<jamest_> ho wgoes the nstti
<jamest_> ?
<gontran> not much yet:)  But
<gontran> I'm working out some probs with the test script -- 
<gontran> it mostly works now ... still more to test and fix in the base
<gontran> classes by excercising there
<gontran> Once that's cleaned up -- next couple days (hopefully) I'll
<jamest_> did you send in that email?
<gontran> have a look (yup - sent mail) at tying in the standard? UI hooks.
<jamest_> cool
<gontran> jamest_ didya see the screenshot?
<jamest_> huh?
<jamest_> no
<jamest_> what screenshot
<jamest_> ?
<gontran> http://gontran.net/pub/gnue/no_swearing.jpg
<gontran> nstti fileselector
<gontran> er s/selector/browser/ ... right now
<jamest_> loading
<jamest_> did you get the gfcvs working w/ what little tie ins i'd started?
<jamest_> basically a menu IIRC
<gontran> I tired it before i did some fixes, but after i did some breaking ;) so not just yet -- I'll be sure to work from it tho
<jamest_> why don't we get you an account setup on ash
<jamest_> so you can check stuff into the cvs
<gontran> if you insist :)
<jamest_> yes
<jamest_> i do :)
<jamest_> username?
<gontran> what else ?
<gontran> :)
Action: gontran is not worthy
<chillywilly> back
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<chillywilly> what wm is that gontran?
<gontran> blackbox chillywilly 
<chillywilly> yea, figured that now when I saw bbkeys
<gontran> i'm interested in waimea however
<gontran> http://130.239.134.83/waimea/index.html
<chillywilly> eh, I gave up on wms a long time ago
<chillywilly> now I just use Gnome ;)
<ratmice> has anyone looked at addrbook.py in a while? geas-server.ior seems to be geas.server.ior yes/no? line 34 using geas-0.0.6
<jamest_> that geas is dead
<jamest_> we're working on a new geas in the appserver directory that reuses common and is written in python
<chillywilly> die die die
<ratmice> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs\/redhat_install.html step 2, cvsroot repository needs fixing /cvsroot/co gnue should be /cvsroot/gnue co gnue...
<jamest_> ok
<jamest_> i'll try and fix in a bit
Action: jamest_ is hunting bwugs...hu hu hu hu hut
<ratmice> enjoy
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<drochaid> heya jcater
<jcater> howdy
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Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
<drochaid> nite doods
<jamest_> nite
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<jamest_> *********************************************
<jamest_> note: cvs is using new icons....to see them
<jamest_> you must remove the tb_* entries from your gnue.conf
<jamest_> files
<jamest_> *******************************************
<jamest_> nite
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<gontran> hiya
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Nick change: Maniac -> Maniac-yawa
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--- Thu May  9 2002