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<psu> hi
<derek> hi
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<dtm> hey fooolz.
<btami> hello
<dtm> btami: how are you
<btami> i'm sleepy
<btami> installed win all night at home 
<btami> there was a big crash :)
<dtm> heh :/
<btami> you know games for kids etc.
<dtm> ahhh  sorry bro
<dtm> sometimes when you 'win', you lose  :)
<btami> :)
<btami> i'm a poor win loser :)
<dtm> yep
<dtm> :/
<btami> and what about you?
<btami> win/lin user/loser ?
<dtm> I'm M$ free :)
<dtm> in fact i'm ia32 free
<dtm> i only rely on macintosh these days, mostly on linux
<btami> nice
<dtm> i've got linux, macos10, and macos9 here.  i rely mostly on linux
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> it feels good at least
<dtm> it honestly boosts me up every day that i can say to myself i have no M$ or ia32
<btami> lucky man
<dtm> i planned well, and suffered for it :)
<dtm> but it's better and easier
<dtm> i dont get cut up when i open the server
<dtm> i have the best of all worlds
<dtm> yay!@
<btami> :)
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<ajmitch> what do you want?
<drochaid> I was just doing a search to see if my new site has been regged yet ... and google through this up
<drochaid> www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log.06Apr2002
<drochaid> ... calling crazy? <drochaid> hallo nickr, is mise Calum <ajmitch> hehe <ajmitch> drochaid:
<drochaid> is it right to say 'ciamar a tha thu sassenach' to them? :) <drochaid ...
<drochaid> 41k - Cached - Similar pages
<ajmitch> yeah, and?
<drochaid> oh well, nevermind
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<ICJ> Hi all!
<btami> hi
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<jamest> hello
<ToyMan> hi jamest
<jamest> anyone happen to look at the new icons in forms?
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<sledge_> hi there
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<heikoV> hi, I am new to gnuenterprise, but really interested
<heikoV> I am trying to connedt to a database with gfdesigner, but it doesn't work
<heikoV> MySQL results in a core-dump and postgresql  complains about no attribute 'supportedDataObjects'
<heikoV> Did I forget to install anything ???
<ra3vat> heikoV: hi
<heikoV> hello
<ra3vat> what have you installed?
<heikoV> common, designer, forms and geas
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<ra3vat> from cvs?
<heikoV> no, from the "download"-link on the site, I am not familiar with CVS
<heikoV> my cvs did not understand the "-z3" option that was mentioned in the docs
<jamest> you can leave that option off
<jamest> it's just a compression level during the transfer
<heikoV> So CVS is a better choice?
<jamest> um
<jamest> we're trying to make a release real soon now
<jamest> as in a few weeks ago
<jamest> putting final touches on it now
<jamest> cvs is miles beyond the last release
<nickr> ugh, filemaker is horrible.
<jamest> heikoV: what platform are you running on?
<heikoV> I am running it on W98 and Redhat7.1, but the same problems arise
<heikoV> I don't get debugging info on W98
<jamest> ok
<jamest> if you are comfortable with running on redhat that's the best bet for now
<jamest> as we primarily devel on *nix and then test on win32
<jamest> and cvs has not been tested lately against win32 to the best of my knowledge
<jamest> bbias
<heikoV> It shouldnt be a problem to use redhat. The machine is my home-gateway, so it has to run all the time anyway
<heikoV> I see that I will have to learn a lot. I will start with CVS.
<jamest> ok
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<jamest> if I recall there is a setting up on redhat doc on our site
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<heikoV> I read it
<jamest> someone reported an error last nite in the page on cvs checkout
<jamest> i'll look at it real quit
<heikoV> I have time... I need to learn python first anyway
<jamest> ok that is fixed
<jamest> also
<jamest> i _think_ we have nightlys being built of our cvs tree
<jamest> anyone?
<neilt> hello all
<neilt> does anyone know if Reinhard will be around today?
<heikoV> funny: I needed to use "checkout" instead of "co"
<jamest> hey neilt
<jamest> no idea
<neilt> thanks
<jamest> no prob
<heikoV> Do I need to run setup.py again?
<neilt> later all
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<jamest> if you have cvs then go to the top level dir gnue
<jamest> in there is a setup-cvs.py
<jamest> that will let you fake an install of the cvs copy 
<jamest> run that script and answer the questions
<jamest> if you do a local install it should put the app launchers in $HOME/bin
<heikoV> Oops, I need to resolve some dependencies first.
<heikoV> Yes, it works fine now.
<heikoV> So it was an installation issue afterall.
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<Arturas> Hello :)
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<heikoV> What do I need to do if I want to make a simple form?
<heikoV> Do I make some tables first, or does designer make them for me?
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<jamest> dneighbo: prequery works again
<jamest> and we have tenatively have new icons for the tbar
<dneighbo> yeah
<dneighbo> i saw that
<dneighbo> i think gnome 2 icons are gpl
Action: dneighbo remembers seeing this somewhere
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<dneighbo> so the stuff from tigert i think you are cool on
Action: dneighbo thinks i saw them as gpl in the gnome cvs tree
<dneighbo> but its good to triple check :)
<dneighbo> hopefully i will get time to test tonight
<dneighbo> today i get to go to a .NET seminar
<dneighbo> as our big law enforcement group has chosen j2ee to build their applications
<dneighbo> and the redmond giant is PISSED
<reinhard> ah i forget
<dneighbo> so now they are dog and pony the whole IT department
<reinhard> you poor suckers have to work today ;)
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<dneighbo> to show them why .NET is the answers
<dneighbo> it should be interesting
<gontran> mornin
Action: dneighbo hopes he can keep a straight face and not start laughing hysterically :)
<reinhard> gontran: morning
<dneighbo> gontran you going to meeting tonight?
<reinhard> ICJ: hi
<ICJ> hi reinhard
<reinhard> thanks for all your mails
<gontran> dneighbo umm ... no. :)
<gontran> you?
<reinhard> ICJ: it's good to know that at least _a_few_ people read the docs :)
<gontran> unless of course you'd like to sit in the back and talk through a movie
<gontran> reinhard: that texi work is brilliant -- the pdfs look great
<gontran> reinhard neilt was lookin for you earlier
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> Is texinfo the official format?
<ICJ> I do what I can ...
<ICJ> What a pity that there is no doxygen for Python ...
<gontran> ICJ i understood that HappyDoc is being considered
<ICJ> ic
<ICJ> well, most source code files are missing docstrings
<ICJ> btw: I read the Python tutorial the day before yesterday
<reinhard> ICJ: re official doc format: we have none AFACT
<reinhard> currently everybody uses what fits him best
<ICJ> but GNU has?
<ICJ> and GNUe is a GNU project ...
<reinhard> which is ok IMHO as long as it can generate pdf
<reinhard> yes GNU has and texinfo is the official gnu doc format
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> i thought docbook was
<reinhard> however some project members weren't happy with texinfo
<ICJ> for whatever reason I thought that ...
<reinhard> so we figured better let them write in what they want than let them write no docs at all
<reinhard> docbook is used by many gnu projects actually
<reinhard> gnome for example
<reinhard> and it is the "official" LDP format
<reinhard> for howtos etc.
<reinhard> re doxygen/happydoc
<reinhard> for several reasons i don't think documentation should be embedded in the source code
Action: drochaid is back (gone 04:07:43)
<ICJ> $ apt-cache search happy doc
<ICJ> python-happydoc - Python Documentation Extraction Tool
<ICJ> python-happydoc-doc - Python Documentation Extraction Tool Documentation
<ICJ> that's it
<ICJ> the backend interfaces are yet to be defined?
<dneighbo> i will pipe up
<dneighbo> officially docbook is GNUe's official format
<dneighbo> but we dont FORCE people to use it
<dneighbo> we want documentation, so we arent too picky
<dneighbo> as to happydoc
<dneighbo> i have used it a bit
<dneighbo> and commented common from it
<dneighbo> it makes dia files as well
<dneighbo> i do think we should use it but not in full
<ICJ> what is dia?
<ICJ> what app do I need for it?
<dneighbo> i.e. i agree with reinhard i dont want our docs all in the source code
<dneighbo> i would like to see methods and such have one line descriptions
<ICJ> yes
<dneighbo> that would be pulled by happy doc
<dneighbo> so the 'skeleton' of the API can be autodocumented
<dneighbo> and then someone can add 'filler' 
<ICJ> yes
<dneighbo> reinhard : what is your view?
<dneighbo> jamest / jcater ?
<ICJ> It's hard to find out how the backend works
<dneighbo> also would it be worth doing the first version of geas while TOTALLY ignoring objects altogether
<dneighbo> i.e. object to relational mapper
<ICJ> when you only have a text editor and open one source file after the other
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> that's a point
<dneighbo> just to get the rpc and remote methods working?
<dneighbo> i.e. bringing us n-tier with minimal fuss
<dneighbo> then building on that?
<dneighbo> or is that the wrong approach?
<ICJ> yes
<dneighbo> any thoughts?
<reinhard> dneighbo: re happydoc
<ICJ> and on enhanced trigger support and so on
<dneighbo> ICJ : http://gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/
<reinhard> i think there should be comments in the code and documentation outside the code
<dneighbo> is an example of happydoc documentation
<dneighbo> reinhard i agree
<reinhard> but they target to different sort of people
<dneighbo> i agree
<reinhard> so it makes no sense IMHO to generate the one out of the other
<dneighbo> i dont think happy doc should produce an API bible
<dneighbo> it should merely be a quick finder guide for develpers
<dneighbo> and serve as the skeleton for reall API documentation to be written
<reinhard> i would consider this "dangerous"
<reinhard> because it tempts you to document the api from the code side view
<reinhard> instead of the user side view
<reinhard> however if the documentation is good i wouldn't mind how it was started
<reinhard> re non-object appserver
<reinhard> you might be surprised
<reinhard> but i basically agree
<reinhard> bbl
<reinhard> 15 min
<ICJ> what we have up to no has nothing to do with objects
<ICJ> calling methods with implicit parameters is not OOP
<ICJ> but it's OK
<ICJ> Happydoc: http://gnuenterprise.org/docs/tools/common/src/FormatMasks/BaseMask.py.html
<ICJ> from gnue.common import GConfig, GDebug
<ICJ> there should be links ...
<ICJ> ah ...
<ICJ> that's maybe because the source file hierarchy is somewhat broken
<ICJ> (the src  dir)
<ICJ> it simply does not find them
<ICJ> the source files probably have to be in _one_ dir with subdirs representing the module hierarchy
<ICJ> huhu?
<reinhard> back
<reinhard> re oop vs. non-oop
<reinhard> i think we could as a first step implement appserver with 1:1 object-table mapping
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<reinhard> and then add more and more oop features as development goes on
<reinhard> i will write up a summary for whitepaper what oop features i think we will see in appserver
<ICJ> as to triggers:
<ICJ> forget it
<ICJ> I have to rethink what I was about to say
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> ICJ: you think before you talk?
<reinhard> you sure you fit into this project?
<reinhard> ;)
<ICJ> ;-)
<dneighbo> reinhard : you say direct object - relation and add features later
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<dneighbo> i think i meant drop object to relational altogether for first pass
<dneighbo> basically have geas just be place to put 'remote triggers'
<dneighbo> that are accessible via rpc
<dneighbo> to start off with
<reinhard> dneighbo: what is the difference?
<reinhard> i mean it's like
<dneighbo> as im thinking this might not be too difficult
<dneighbo> and gets people using it
<dneighbo> maybe none maybe some im not sure :)
<reinhard> what is the difference between a c++ object without any methods and without inheritance
<reinhard> and a c struct?
<dneighbo> im thinking geas for first pass uses datamodel of forms(common) entirely
<dneighbo> and doesnt try to make it into objects
<dneighbo> maybe to teh point where the concepts of 'gcds' dont exist or are limited
<dneighbo> rather instead its just triggers
<dneighbo> for the first pass (not long term)
<reinhard> i still believe we're talking the same here
<dneighbo> we very well could be :)
<dneighbo> thats why i said 'im not sure if its the same'
<dneighbo> im just trying to think KISS
<dneighbo> and build on it
<dneighbo> i.e. someday i would love object to relational mapper with an onslaught of features
<dneighbo> but realistically there is huge value in remote triggers via rpc today and thats a much more obtainable task 
<dneighbo> however, if it means doing one way we can never get to the other i dont think that is necessarily good
<dneighbo> and why i asked for opinion on it
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<jamest> hows the i18n stuff moving along?
<jamest> and hows the efforts on nstti working out gontran?
<gontran> :) see my commits?
<gontran> the test is mostly working for me
<jamest> and has anyone looked at the new toolbar in forms and if so do they have issues with it?
<Arturas> i18n: /common section .py files prepared for translations, now working on /form section
<jamest> gontran: I saw the commits but it was every file :)  also that cvs isn't on a mail list so i have no idea what's been done 
<jamest> Arturas: cool
<gontran> looking into some enhancements and to get more familiar with ... :) oh
<jamest> gontran: if our cvs becomes busy then we'll have to see about setting up a list
<gontran> jamest: i added a changelog in nstti/ to attempt to keep track .. (heh)
<dneighbo> gontran you can automate change logs
<gontran> did some minor re-org, clean up, starting documentaiton ... 
<dneighbo> i.e. if your commit messages are good
<ICJ> "also that cvs isn't on a mail list" - hu?
<gontran> dneighbo really how?
<dneighbo> http://www.red-bean.com/cvs2cl/
<gontran> jamest: hopefully it will not be busy for long :)
<gontran> dneighbo thx
<jamest> ICJ: we put up a cvs server that only has nstti in it
<jamest> as we don't have copyright on the package so it can't go in gnu cvs
<jamest> and the author didn't have a cvs server available 
<dneighbo> jamest what is your opinion on say
<dneighbo> happy doc
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> stripped down geas 
<dneighbo> from above
<jamest> i was looking in the python docs today and python also added a pydoc module recently
<dneighbo> jamest: does the cvs snapshot have new prequery and toolbar stuff?
<dneighbo> jamest: i think happydoc is better
<jamest> i wouldn't mind having code docs but don't want it to be only docs
<dneighbo> jamest: agree 100%
<dneighbo> i am thinking happydoc isnt for 'documenting' as much as for 'outlining'
<dneighbo> i.e. visual thinkers do well to have a nice html navigatable list of methods
<dneighbo> and it makes UML as well
<dneighbo> but i wouldnt expect it to be the developers API documentation
<dneighbo> at this point like last time i think i will just table it
<dneighbo> as no one seems much interested
<gontran> i'll say happydoc is good.  and like the sentiment of using it as a starting point fwiw
<gontran> it would provide a good way to shoehorn new developers into productivity ;)
<jamest> i'm still interested in looking at pydoc
<jamest> as it's built in to python
<jamest> as for stripped down geas
<jamest> i really don't know
<dneighbo> jamest: i just have a problem with python folks
<dneighbo> example pyXML existed because they WOULD NOT put it in python
<dneighbo> and same with happydoc etc
<jamest> i'd like to see how well the trigger objects in common could be adjusted to fit geas's needs
<dneighbo> then python goes and makes own that is more IMMATURE
<dneighbo> and people use becaues its 'part of python'
<dneighbo> i.e. i am not against using pydoc
<dneighbo> but i think it has a lot less features
<jamest> i'm not pro python modules
<jamest> i'm anti external dependencies :)
<dneighbo> in case of pyxml vs python xml
<dneighbo> im all for losing a dependency
<dneighbo> in the case of documentation
<dneighbo> we currently require
<dneighbo> docbook
<dneighbo> lyx
<jamest> but honestly I am happy to put more docs in the code that are compatible
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<jamest> yip :)
<dneighbo> and i keep hearing as long we put html, pdf etc on site
<dneighbo> people really shouldnt need the tools
Action: dneighbo is inclined to agree
Action: jamest has secretely thought about going to openoffice :)
<dneighbo> so in case of pydoc vs happydoc i dont really view as a 'dependency'
<jamest> as docbook tool suck
<jamest> lyx socks
<jamest> re
<jamest> sucks
<jamest> texinfo sucks
<dneighbo> i spoke with norman walsh (author of docbook)
<dneighbo> and we have been brainstorming on what it might take
<dneighbo> to make abiword do docbook right
<jamest> i love the idea of docbook 
<jamest> love it
<dneighbo> and he is thinking it might not be too bad
<jamest> wanted to switch internally to it here long ago
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<jamest> but the TOOLS are the issue
<jamest> so a docbook friendly abiword would go a long way toward wooing me back to docbook
<jamest> the only thing I don't want to see in docs is me having to program them
<jamest> to spend tons of time looking for a missing / in a closing tag is not cool
<heikoV> It might be possible to use amaya xhtml and converting it to docbook
<heikoV> Amaya supports mathml and SVG
<heikoV> But I don't know if a converter exists
Action: dsmith is away: phone
<dneighbo> heikoV i have suggested this
<dneighbo> no one liked the idea
<dneighbo> that and best i could tell amaya in debian still didnt support things properly
<jcater> dneighbo: do you remember the name of that web-based accounting package I was telling you about
<dneighbo> nola
<dneighbo> iirc
<jcater> the one that included MS fonts for some bizarre reason
<jcater> yeah!
<jcater> thx
<dneighbo> no problem
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Action: dneighbo enters in dcl, 'upgrade jcater's flash ROM it appears to be going south'
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Action: drochaid_ thinks dcl has some very good potential
Action: drochaid_ thinks he should renick
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
<drochaid> dneighbo: I got dcl working on woody testing last night ... I'm ashamed how simple the solution was :-/
Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: ""have fun :)""
<dneighbo> :
<dneighbo> )
<dneighbo> dcl on woody warrants a woody eh :)
<drochaid> oh dear .. that was bad .. but yes, it does :-D
<drochaid> I'm rebuilding woody testing on another test server for main services and dcl again ...
<drochaid> be prepared for stupid questions from me ... or at least get ready to run away when you see me type :)
<heikoV> Did I understand this corectly: the forms client cannot connect to a database yet
<jcater> our forms client?
<jcater> it connects to a dozen or so different flavors of databases
<heikoV> how do I do this?
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<heikoV> I thought the backend wasn't ready yet
<dneighbo> heikoV 2 tier works fine
<dneighbo> n tier does not
<dneighbo> you can connect DIRECTLY to a database just fine
<dneighbo> connecting to middleware (GEAS) you can not
<dneighbo> hope that answers the questions
<dneighbo> how to do it
<dneighbo> edit your connections.conf
<dneighbo> to have valid connection
<dneighbo> create a form that uses that connection
<dneighbo> run form :)
<reinhard> <jamest> i'd like to see how well the trigger objects in common could be adjusted to fit geas's needs
<reinhard> jamest: give me a jcater-style doc and i'll tell you :)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> ok
<reinhard> jcater-style doc == understandable simple example
<reinhard> btw if neilt appears again
<reinhard> i was not here this morning because it's public holiday here
<reinhard> i think i agree with him that we need to talk :)
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<dneighbo> hola mi amigo
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<StyXman> hello friend.
<StyXman> :)
<StyXman> er, I run gfdes with --debug-level 9, but debug mesgs from Incubator.py do not appear...
<StyXman> one has level 3 and another has level 6.
<dneighbo> hmmm
<siesel> there is an i18 error in forms/uidrivers in the new cvs version
<dneighbo> StyXman : i asked jamest/jcater and lo culparon en las cabras enojadas
<StyXman> cabras enojadas? (estas practicando espa#ol?) angry ... sheep?
Action: dsmith is back (gone 00:50:22)
<ICJ> do we need transaction support in the first place?
<ICJ> well ...
<ICJ> is transaction _abstraction_ difficult?
<ICJ> i think it should be added for databases where you can just do BEGIN and COMMIT ...
<ICJ> -rwxr-xr-x    1 jens     jens         6740 12. Aug 2001  CustomizedLoginHandlers.txt
<ICJ> -rwxr-xr-x    1 jens     jens         1796 25. Mai 2001  WritingClientApps.txt
<ICJ> Why are these set +x?
<siesel> if you have more than one user you  need transaction suport. Or you have to wait hours until an other user has release the lock on a table/object.
<dneighbo> StyXman : mad goats
<dneighbo> angry sheep : same thing
<siesel> reinhard: what do you think. Should every row in a table be represented as Object, or should a whole table be represent by just  one object?
<ICJ> hu?
<dneighbo> siesel for now neither :)
<dneighbo> use common's objects for data :)
<ICJ> ERROR: SyntaxError: dbdrivers/mxodbc/DBdriver.py[53] invalid syntax
<ICJ>          "http://www.lemburg.com/files/python/mxODBC.html\n\n[%s]" % message
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> forget it:
<ICJ> Writing Generalization ...
<ICJ> base_class 'ValueError' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'DBSIG_ResultSet' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'DBSIG_DataObject' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'DBSIG_DataObject_Object' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'DBSIG_RecordSet' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'DBSIG_DataObject_SQL' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'StandardError' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'AsyncSocketServer' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'Exception' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'server' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'ContentHandler' not found.
<ICJ> base_class 'ThreadingTCPServer' not found.
<ICJ> (with --dia)
<ICJ> they have to be in an installation to give good results
<siesel> dneighbo: I didn't mean not to use common. I just ask, if there should be a geasInstance object for every single dataset or not.
<ICJ> there should
<ICJ> be
<ICJ> it is not difficult to implement
<ICJ> is it?
<siesel> no, its just an question of speed.
<dneighbo> siesel i was earlier advocating something simple with no object/relational mapping
<dneighbo> for a first pass
<dneighbo> other than the objects of common that access data
<siesel> I just ask, because I want to know, how simple / complicated it should be.
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<ICJ> can't we use CLOS?
<siesel> CLOS?
<dneighbo> CLOS?
<ICJ> Common Lisp Object System, or something like that
<ICJ> ;-)
<psu> CLOSe enough ;-)
<ICJ> what then?
<ICJ> well, maybe some reports programmed in Lisp will be nice ...
<ICJ> something complex
<ICJ> like tax calculations
<ICJ> especially German tax returns and tax calculations
<ICJ> (tax optimization)
<ICJ> you would not need a tax consultnat for tax optimization, you could let GNUe do it
<ICJ> you know, things like "Which write-of method shall we use"
<StyXman> anyone can answer about LayoutEditor.py?
Action: psu fears tax
<psu> German tax, especially
<ICJ> GNUe could predict business in the next years and provide for balanced results, so that lowest tax rates apply
<ICJ> all this prediction stuff is AI, IMO
<ICJ> perfectly suited for LISP
<reinhard> siesel: i think every single row is represented by a geasInstance instance
<reinhard> (if the mapping between object and db is 1:1)
Action: siesel has finished his tax declaration today!
<reinhard> so more than 1 instance can be handeled at the same time
<ICJ> ./designer/src/forms/LayoutEditor/LayoutEditor.py
<ICJ> ./designer/src/navigator/LayoutEditor.py
<ICJ> which one?
<reinhard> siesel: for which year? ;)
<ICJ> siesel: I don't like the American tax system, from what I read on www.irs.org
<ICJ> our tax system is nice in comparison ...
<siesel> reinhard: what do you think about a geasMetaObject which holds the definition of an object class and can create geasInstances out of db table rows
<ICJ> hehe
<ICJ> the factory pattern?
<ICJ> why do we need a meta object?
<ICJ> no
<ICJ> not the factory pattern - that's something completely different (so me real OOP)
<reinhard> siesel: my plan was like
<siesel> not just a factory object more a real Object.  which gets instanciated. 
<ICJ> doesn't geasList do exactly that?
<reinhard> a geasMetaObject (or however we call it) holds the definition of a class
<ICJ> well
<reinhard> and geasList creates the geasInstances by talking to the geasMetaObject
<ICJ> geasInstance does not represent the object stored in the DB
<ICJ> (not in the current communication model)
<ICJ> it just provides access to them
<reinhard> ICJ: ?
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> sure
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> the fields and methods are not thoe
<ICJ> of the geasInstance
<reinhard> yeah (sure == you're right)
<ICJ> geasInstance is just used to access them
<ICJ> oops
<reinhard> the object is of type "geasInstance" not of type "customer"
<ICJ> did not see the ah sure
<ICJ> was busy typing
<reinhard> :)
<ICJ> ;-)
<ICJ> cool
<ICJ> how long will I need to become a GNUe Guru?
<reinhard> please define guru
<reinhard> ;)
<ICJ> any chance to place GNUe in the media?
<siesel> I thought of putting the geasList functionality into geasMetaObject. But now I think it would be ok to split it into two parts. To allow access to two different lists of instances at the same time
<ICJ> like chaosradio?
<ICJ> siesel: ?
<ICJ> lists of insttances where the objects have different types?
<reinhard> siesel: do you know neilt's diagram of the geas parts?
<ICJ> the polymorphy (sp?) surrogate?
<ICJ> reinhard: Was heißt "Polymorphie" auf en?
<reinhard> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=NS-My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&pid=31
<siesel> I know it. But its parts are a little too big to be really concret.
<reinhard> ICJ: polymorphism
<reinhard> siesel: i always keep that in mind.
<ICJ> what is the batch schema compiler?
<reinhard> for example the geasMetaObject belongs into the "object repository" and geasList belongs into "object server"
<reinhard> so it can't mix it in one object
<reinhard> s/can't/shouldn't/
<ICJ> what is the transaction processor? emulation of transactions for backends that do not supprt it?
<ICJ> what is workflow server`?
<reinhard> ICJ: schema compiler == what translates object definitions into database definition (SQL DDL)
<ICJ> ah ic
<reinhard> transaction processor and workflow server == good looking buzzwords that aren't defined in detail
<reinhard> ;)
<ICJ> cool
<reinhard> j/k
<ICJ> let's play Buzzword bingo
<ICJ> you have just won an extra point
<ICJ> for not knowing the meaning of the buzzwords you are using
<reinhard> seriously these are things that are needed for upperscale business systems
<reinhard> they were brought up by neil tiffin and derek neighbors
<reinhard> and as they are marked "future" i didn't bother much with trying to understand what i do
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> what they do
<ICJ> like a completed order will get into a packing workflow queue?
<ICJ> or something like that?
<ICJ> it is not finished when it is entered, it has to run through the workflow
<reinhard> as i understood it it's the system telling you what step comes next
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> I understand it the same way
<ICJ> very important
<reinhard> however i wouldn't see that as a "server" but rather as a matter of application design
<ICJ> hm ...
<ICJ> the behavior has of course to be defined in the class definition
<ICJ> but I like the idea of a software component controlling workflow
<reinhard> but again however i try to concentrate on one thing at a time and workflow is _not_ what i'm concentrating on now :)
<ICJ> yes
<reinhard> sorry to be curious but what does ICJ mean?
<reinhard> um btw what does siesel mean? :)
<siesel> you mean about the workflow server?
<ICJ> www.icj-cij.org
<reinhard> no i mean "what does the word siesel mean"
<siesel> its just a nickname. Its the only word my german teacher didn't found in a dictonary. ;)
<reinhard> ICJ?
<ICJ> www.icj-cij.org
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<reinhard> um are you related to that institution?
<ICJ> two Germans and one Austrian chatting in en  ...
<ICJ> no, i am not
<siesel> this is what we call a "language barrier"
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> even two of us have the same name "müller" :)
<reinhard> siesel brings 182 hits on google.de
<chillywilly> sup dewds
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> chilly is here
<siesel> cool. I didn't know I'm so famous  ;)
<reinhard> time to go to bed
<reinhard> siesel: looks like there's a city in germany and a real surname
<reinhard> chillywilly: j/k
<siesel> wow.  Good to know.
<chillywilly> reinhard: gee, like I don't get enough shit from everyone else
<reinhard> lol
<chillywilly> reinhard: if you're going to start in I am leaving
<reinhard> chillywilly: don't worry
<chillywilly> reinhard: btw, you know that ODMG defines all these collections that neil is asking about
<reinhard> you know that's not my kind of humour
<siesel> chilly: I've some good ideas how to implement that ODMG stuff.
<chillywilly> siesel: well the tiem stuff is done in mxdatetime ;)
<chillywilly> er, time
<reinhard> chillywilly and siesel: i will probably talk to neilt in the next days
<chillywilly> that's one less thing to do
<reinhard> about the collections
<reinhard> from what i understand ODMG collections are unsorted lists
<reinhard> i think maybe neilt was meaning something else
<chillywilly> they are Bags, Lists, Sets, Arrays
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> Dictionary too
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> collections are the general term?
<reinhard> for all of these?
<chillywilly> yea the general interface
<reinhard> oops
<chillywilly> that all of those implement
Action: reinhard goes to re-read the odmg.txt document
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> from what I can tell they help with object constructs in general and they help is OQL query results
<reinhard> however
<chillywilly> like if you say distinct you geta  set of objects that match the query (no duplicates)
<chillywilly> and if you leave it out you get a bag (with duplicates)
<chillywilly> for example
<siesel> their is a docbook version of odmg.txt first part in cvs now.
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<reinhard> it was a public holiday here today so it was a exhausting day for me ;)
<reinhard> night all
<chillywilly> :)
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<chillywilly> good night
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> he has the best quit messages
<ICJ> oh
<ICJ> reinhard went drinking with his son or with his frriends?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<chillywilly> he has a son he can drink with?
<ICJ> i dunno
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> I think he has 2 little girls
<ICJ> today was Father's Day ..
<chillywilly> not here in the States
<ICJ> or Ascension Day ...
<ICJ> or however it is called in English ...
<ICJ> formerly a religious holiday, now reserved for drinking ... ;-)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> hi dres
<ICJ> ?
<ICJ> oh
<chillywilly> [15:57:02] --> dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) has joined #gnuenterprise
<ICJ> yes
<chillywilly> ;P
<ICJ> 4 minutes ago
<ICJ> Hi dres
<ICJ> :-)
<siesel> chilly: where do you get odmg.txt from. Do you wrote everything yourself?
<chillywilly> no one ever accused me of being prompt
<chillywilly> they are notes I tool while reading the standard
<chillywilly> took
<chillywilly> I have the book with the standard in it
<chillywilly> I wrote those notes so  no one would have to buy it ;)
<chillywilly> (within legal reason)
<dres> lo chillywilly
<dres> lo ICJ
<chillywilly> http://www.odmg.org
<chillywilly> I am workign on the python binding and soon (hopefully later today) I want to implement the collection niterfaces
<chillywilly> throw it in common
<chillywilly> gnue.common.odmg
<chillywilly> or something
<siesel> what kind of python binding? do you mean an parser and object builder, or an definition?
<chillywilly> I figure I would put those notes intot something more readable and have it be in an appendix of the geas architecture document
<chillywilly> python ODMG binding
<chillywilly> implement the collection interfaces, the meta object repository, etc.
<chillywilly> all those interfaces/classes defined in the standard need to be realized in code ;)
<chillywilly> and since python is our langauge, we get to write our own binding as one does not exist
<chillywilly> they only have C++, Smalltalk, and Java in the standard so far
<chillywilly> I am pulling things from each binding and looking at the Python IDL binding since ODL is a superset of IDL
<siesel> so this python ODMG binding is just an definition which describes which ODL things should be mapped to which python THIngs. right?
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<chillywilly> it si the python implementation of the standard
<chillywilly> s/si/is
<chillywilly> they describe the standard interfaces using ODL but those need to be made into code....the core things they just use ODl to describe the interfaces in the standard
Action: chillywilly is repeating himself
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> damn dude
<chillywilly> can't get star wars tickets to the theatre by my house :(
Action: drochaid_ just had an interesting experience with woody testing
<gontran> heh
<drochaid_> just got setup to go into a recursive loop over the hardware clock, timezone, md5 passwords and shadow
<chillywilly> aaaah, I can go see it in Waukesha though
<chillywilly> hmmm
<drochaid_> now why would you want to go and see star wars chillywilly?
<siesel> cw: btw, what do you think about you odmg.txt converted to docbook?
<chillywilly> it's ok, but it is just notes that need to be made into something better ;)
<chillywilly> but it's nice tp have sgml
<chillywilly> thanks
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<chillywilly> hmmm, I can go see Star Wars in a bummy neighbrhood
<drochaid_> best place for it :)
<chillywilly> hmmm, it is showing at midnight
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> even better
<chillywilly> now I can duck real laser^H^H^H^Hgun blasts ;P
<drochaid_> lol
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
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<chillywilly> oh duh it is playing at the theater at my house on the 16th
<chillywilly> er, by my house
<siesel> l8r
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<drochaid> at your house? you been accessing the preview versions? :)
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<heikoV> small bug in LayoutEditor
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<heikoV> gConfig is called with wrong argument "left"
<heikoV> replaced "CreateLabelsOnDrop","left" with varName="CreateLabelsOnDrop", it works fine now
<jamest> argH!
<jamest> i missed one!
<drochaid> jamest: you didn't miss one, you left one in for artistic license. Don't let anyone tell you different :)
<chillywilly> never
<chillywilly> GPL forever
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> artistic license blows ;)
<drochaid> LMAO
<drochaid> any Fawlty Towers fans out there?
<chillywilly> wassat?
<drochaid> :o
<drochaid> you don't know Fawlty Towers
<drochaid> '
<drochaid> ?
<drochaid> Basil Fawlty?
<drochaid> Manuel?
<chillywilly> uh, no dewd
<drochaid> :o
<chillywilly> why are you speaking such jibberish?
<drochaid> heard of John Cleese?
<chillywilly> yes
<drochaid> the first sitcom he did after he left MP
<drochaid> it's considered to be one of the best of all time
<chillywilly> MP?
<nickr> Fawlty Towers is funny
<drochaid> monty python
<chillywilly> ah yea
<drochaid> YAY .. allo nickr :)
<chillywilly> nickr: you use the AIM transport on jabber.earth.li?
<jamest> l8r
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<nickr> chillywilly: Yes, I did
<nickr> right now I'm just using aim because there is this really good console client
<chillywilly> just aking because I can't log into it anymore
<chillywilly> asking even
<chillywilly> I knwo why
<chillywilly> know
<chillywilly> I don't knwo my friggin password for AIM anymore
<chillywilly> blah
<nickr> ah
<nickr> maybe aim is blocking oscar clients again
<chillywilly> bastards
<nickr> heh
<chillywilly> there I got the right password now ;)
<nickr> works now?
<nickr> damn, I'm a sunflower seed addict
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> yea, works now
<chillywilly> I could swear that jabber server was down for a while
<chillywilly> I should run my own but it is not trivial to setup
<nickr> and the debian package sucks ass
<chillywilly> that too
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<chillywilly> do the dew
<nickr> I did it
<nickr> and now I have a headache
<chillywilly> wuss
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<jcater> is there a derek / dneighbo in the house?
<chillywilly> hell no
<nickr> paging doctor neighbors, doctor neighbors
<chillywilly> we banished all mastas
<chillywilly> we are now a free society of coding fools
<nickr> that'd never work
<nickr> one geek would always rise to the top, the masta
<chillywilly> never
<nickr> and rule over all!
<nickr> and that geek is me.
<chillywilly> aaaaaw sheeeeiit
<ICJ> hm ...
<ICJ> I will take a look at texinfo
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<chillywilly> you do that
<nickr> texinfo is evil.
<chillywilly> texinfo gives good luvin' to yo mamma
<nickr> thats part of the reason why its evil
<chillywilly> hey anyone ever try porn-get?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> finally someone writes something worth while ;)
<chillywilly> screw this enterprise crap
<ICJ> $ apropos porn
<ICJ> porn: nichts passendes.
<ICJ> hmpf
<chillywilly> http://www.lesbian.mine.nu/
<chillywilly> the funny thing is that it really does work...I thought it was a joke at first
<chillywilly> the script is primitive though...it should be rewritten in python ;)
<chillywilly> the "package management" could be improved
<drochaid_> chillywilly: buy it, right now!!!
<drochaid_> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005LC1H/qid=1020983935/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_71_1/102-7619524-5496167
<chillywilly> this is a video right?
<drochaid_> dvd
<chillywilly> DVD even
<chillywilly> I'd buy it if it weren't on amazon.com
<drochaid_> if you need video ... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WGC4/qid=1020983935/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_71_4/102-7619524-5496167
<chillywilly> I refuse to buy anything form them on ethical principles
<chillywilly> from
<drochaid_> buy it elsewhere then!!
<chillywilly> they have a patent on the one click shopping method which is absurd
<drochaid_> :o
<drochaid_> but but but they didn't create one click shopping
<gontran> does porn-get come with debian jr.?
<drochaid_> never mind the fact that that type of patent is always obsurd anyway
<chillywilly> software patents are absurd too ;)
<drochaid_> always
<gontran> it could've slipped thru
<drochaid_> when was Amazon founded?
<chillywilly> the US patent system sucks ass
<drochaid_> the first person I know of to work with one click shopping [not that I'm claiming he's the first] is Proffesor Ian Ritchie FBCS of Edinburgh University in 1996
<ICJ> prior art then ...
<drochaid_> of course, he also turned down Tim Berners Lee when he was asked to help with the precurser to the web :)
<ICJ> btw, what are Amazon's patent claims?
<chillywilly> one-click shopping method
<chillywilly> I don't know the details, I am sure you can find more info on the web about it ;)
<drochaid_> chillywilly: unfortunately I can't afford to ignore Amazon, some of the books I buy are very difficult to get hold of .. getting them elsewhere can take months and cost 3 or 4 times more
<drochaid_> I've only ever bought 4 books from them tho, I buy anything easy to find elsewhere
<ajmitch> hello
Action: drochaid_ scurries away from ajmitch
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
Action: ajmitch sighs & goes back to his hole
<chillywilly> hiya ajmitch
<gontran> hi ajmitch!
Action: ajmitch wonders at the sudden silence
<ajmitch> you were talking about me, weren't you?
Action: drochaid says nothing, except fot saying that he saus nothing
<drochaid> ciamar a tha thu?
<gontran> nothing like irc for breeding neurotics :)
<gontran> s/breeding/flushing out/
<ajmitch> gle mhath, drochaid
Action: gontran finds himself sweating, waiting for the next line to pop up
<chillywilly> I wonder if I am going about this all wrong
<ajmitch> neurtotcs? i'm not neurotic!!
<chillywilly> *sigh*
Action: gontran finds himself sweating, eyeballs bulging, desperately waiting for the next line to pop up
Action: ajmitch gets out cattle prod
<gontran> no.  narcotics
<gontran> narcotics
<ajmitch> oooh
Action: gontran steps slowly away from ajmitch
Action: ajmitch cackles madly
Action: gontran turns and runs
Action: gontran trips over a slumped over dtm on the floor, falling flat
<gontran> <thump>
<ajmitch> don't hurt dtm! he might bite back!
<gontran> it was dark, i didn't see im
<ajmitch> you'd better run....
<dtm> ;lksjkdljf
<gontran> bah.
<dtm> gontran: what the heck are you doing around here, you crazy fewl?!
<gontran> dtm: one minute i was in #sugar_n_spice, next thing i know i'd fallen over you there!  sorry!
<dtm> ohhhh ok
<dtm> it's coo'
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home"
Action: gontran looks through dtm's wallet, glanceing at dtm over his shoulder
<gontran> someone stopme!
<drochaid> hey dtm, didn't notice you lurking in here
Action: drochaid bashes gontran over the head to stop him
<drochaid> well you did ask!!
<gontran> :)
Action: gontran shakes it off
Action: drochaid mopps up the blood and hands gontran his brain back
Action: gontran tosses dtm his wallet
<dtm> gontran: hey thnkas
Action: gontran starts chewing on brain
<gontran> too salty
Action: drochaid hands gontran his wallet back and tells him to throw dtm dtm's wallet
<dtm> gontran: EEETZ SO BEEEEG!
<gontran> heh, yeah 
<gontran> sure
<gontran>  :)
Action: gontran turns runs, trips falls ..
Action: gontran throws dtm his wallet from the ground
<gontran> this is the kind of good clean fun that keeps me coming back to gnue
<gontran> hey, let's all sing the Cheer's song 
Action: ajmitch would rather not
<dtm> nooooo
<gontran> comeon!
<gontran> '''where everybody knows yer na-a-ame''' da da da
<gontran> '''and they're always glad you ca-a-ame''' da da da
<chillywilly> '''and they're always glad you ca-a-ame''' da da da
Action: ajmitch applies cattle prod to gontran
<gontran> hey how about that shelly long!  
Action: nickr bleeds from the ears.
Action: gontran seizures
Action: chillywilly 's heart seizes
<chillywilly> <thwap>
Action: chillywilly falls in a pool of nickr's blood
Action: gontran shakes his head
<gontran> what happened?
<gontran> why is cw in a pool of nickr's blood!?
Action: ajmitch applies cattle prod to gontran again
<chillywilly> his ears are bleeding
Action: gontran seizures
Action: ajmitch gets back to playing with webware & python
Action: gontran shakes his head
Action: chillywilly reads about friggin i/o streams again
Action: gontran looks at a bagfull of wallets
<ajmitch> webware has such a 1337 appserver
<gontran> tell us about it ajmitch
Action: ajmitch warms up cattle prod for gontran
<gontran> heh. j/k
<ajmitch> see webware.sf.net
Action: gontran runs to galeon to browse webware...
<gontran> now that's a together project
<gontran> look at that page and those docs!
Action: gontran whistles
<dtm> they have a PAGE...?  ... and with DOCS?!
<nickr> python projects tend to be overly documented
<nickr> luckily, gnue doesn't have that problem
<ajmitch> hehe
<gontran> thank goodness
<ajmitch> docs are just _wrong_!
<chillywilly> whatever
<chillywilly> sheeeeit
Action: ajmitch likes mysql ;)
Action: chillywilly hisses
<chillywilly> take it back!
Action: ajmitch was using mysql last night
<drochaid> BLASPHEMER!!!!!
<drochaid> sp?
<ajmitch> lovely software
Action: chillywilly puts his hands over his ears
<chillywilly> la la la la la
Action: ajmitch has a website which gets stuff from mysql
<chillywilly> IIIII'mmm nooooot lissssteniiiiiing
<nickr> Evil!@
<ajmitch> muahaha
<chillywilly> dude these docs fucking kick ass
<gontran> ajmitch: re mysql, it is lovely isn't it? :)
Action: ajmitch does apt-get remove postgresql
<chillywilly> much better than anything else I have read on iostreams
<drochaid> how come this chan doesn't have an autokick on the my s q l word? ;)
<dneighbo> gack
<dneighbo> barf
<dneighbo> puke
<ajmitch> hehe
<dneighbo> 4 hours of m$ propoganda on .NET
<dneighbo> the sick thing is they are so slick
<dneighbo> they had me drooling over it :)
<ajmitch> ooh, where?
Action: gontran looks at ajmitch's shoes, frowns at the vomit
<dtm> dneighbo: huh?
<dtm> dneighbo: where's this at?
<gontran> slut
<dneighbo> i've definitely got some new things I would like to see in GNUe
<dneighbo> dtm: work
<gontran> spy slut
<ajmitch> dneighbo: such as?
<dneighbo> it looks like CIO and his right hand mand
<dneighbo> bought the pitch hook line and sinker
<dtm> dneighbo: whose CIO?  yours?
<dneighbo> they are drooling to convert an existing application
<dneighbo> so looks like i will be a .NET developer at some point
<dtm> dneighbo: where are you in the org chart in relation to the CIO?
<dneighbo> GACK
<dneighbo> under him :)
<dtm> dneighbo: duh, how far :)
<gontran> don't sign anything!
<dneighbo> 2 people
<ajmitch> dneighbo: oh, have fun ;)
<dneighbo> CIO->Dept CIO->MyBoss->Me
<ajmitch> dneighbo: i guess the MS people gloss over anything bad about .NET?
<dneighbo> gloss over
<chillywilly> it's M$ silly, get it right
<dneighbo> you assume they THINK there is anything bad at all
<ajmitch> heh, true
<dneighbo> honestly it was odd
<dneighbo> a. they admitted hotmail is still 70% FreeBSD
<chillywilly> if I tell myself a lie enough I may strat to believe it is true ;)
<dneighbo> b. they acknowledge MONO, dotGNU and portable.NET
<ajmitch> interesting
<dtm> yeah tha'ts interesting
<dneighbo> c. They STRESSED that they submitted .NET to ECMA
<dneighbo> d. They said passport sucks cause they own it and its not open
<dneighbo> direct quote
<chillywilly> hah
<dtm> dneighbo: ?!
<dtm> wow
<dneighbo> Microsoft has learned that when it comes to security closed is bad open is good
<dtm> dneighbo: oh, has it?
<dneighbo> we are replacing m$ passport w/
<dneighbo> Federated Passport
<chillywilly> "federated"?
<dneighbo> which will be not owned by M$
<dneighbo> and will be based on 
<dneighbo> "Kerebos, the best security protocol to date, developed by the best minds at MIT"
<gontran> federated
<gontran> kereberereros
<chillywilly> yea, but is this M$-hacked kerebos?
<chillywilly> they embraced and extended the protocol
<chillywilly> a while back
<dneighbo> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-273252.html
<ajmitch> dneighbo: so what k00l features do you want to add to GNUe?
drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
<dneighbo> mostly has to do with designer
<nickr> kerberos, the same auth system that they changed slightly in 2k to make incompatible with the standard
<ajmitch> ok
<dneighbo> and ideas for web client
<dneighbo> as the big pitch (which i find funny)
<dneighbo> was
<dneighbo> a. any idiot can write applications
<dneighbo> b. that write once run on web, windows, wap, ipaq etc
<dneighbo> both of which gnue is doing today :)
<dneighbo> or at least has as identical goals
<dneighbo> much of what gnue is honestly is .net
<dneighbo> i just never realized it
<dneighbo> we just dont use the funny names
ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-1-ip89.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dtm> well whoop-de-doo :)
<gontran> new gnue marketing fodder
<dneighbo> but visualstudio is a slick IDE
<dneighbo> it always has been
<dneighbo> and its gotten better
<dtm> dneighbo: so, then, does your CIO realize that you're working on gnue?
<dneighbo> i think i good strong ide will be important for adoption
<dneighbo> dtm: absolutely
<dneighbo> they are not really interested in it though
<ajmitch> dneighbo: we've said that before about an IDE
<dtm> dneighbo: did he even give a nod to it in relation to this shit?
<dtm> dneighbo: why not?
<dneighbo> though they plan to demo DCL and maybe use larger
<dneighbo> dtm: i cant say here :)
<dtm> dneighbo: ok
ICJ (foobar@pD9E46C6A.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "Only sausages have two ends."
<ajmitch> yes you can!! tell us now!!! ;)
<dneighbo> mostly they know i work on GNUe
<dtm> dneighbo: do they know what gnue is?
<dneighbo> but that has no meaning they know what GNUe really is :)
<dtm> ok.
<ajmitch> edcate them
<dneighbo> and frankly they have LITTLE gumption to use anything non microsoft
<dneighbo> so im not going to spend the time explainnig :)
<chillywilly> wussies
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<gontran> lemmings
<dneighbo> as evidenced by today
<dneighbo> i think i might not mind so much doing some m$ development again
<dneighbo> ONLY
<dneighbo> to learn from teh enemy
<gontran> they put on a good show.
<dtm> dneighbo: so, why dont you wanna present an alternate case?  in reality, it means a lot to consider whatever technology your onsite staff is already expert in.
<dtm> dneighbo: you can go on about the Peru govt case, involving open standards, etc
drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> wb drochaid
<drochaid> ta chillywilly
<dneighbo> dtim: im not too worried they dont really write many applications here
Action: drochaid waddles off to bed
<drochaid> mar sin leat :)
<ajmitch> night drochaid
<dtm> dneighbo: uhhhhh....  hmmm   so are you saying it'd be no big deal?
Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
<dtm> dneighbo: you dont mind that many more NT deployments?
<dtm> dneighbo: er, at least, that much more reliance on M$ technology?  it's a slippery slope.
<dneighbo> dtm: im saying i fight where i think i can make a difference
<dneighbo> they already think im a zealot to a degree
<dtm> dneighbo: you mean, wher eyou think you can win?
<dtm> win the fight, that is?
<dneighbo> no not where i think i can win
<dtm> dneighbo: ahhhhh :/
<dneighbo> where i think i can make a difference
<dneighbo> i.e. i have many times fought on issue i know i have already lost
<dneighbo> only to set myself in a position for victory later :)
<dtm> dneighbo: you already use gnue at your workplace, right?
<dneighbo> all good generals do this :)
<dtm> dneighbo: oh ok :)
<dneighbo> i.e. calling m$ on the carpet in their demo dominated by m$ loyalists
<dneighbo> is not productive :)
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> thassa fackt
<dtm> asking questions is good there
<dneighbo> none
<dneighbo> they all blindly accepted it as gospel
<dneighbo> most i think didnt understand it
<dneighbo> just liked the pretty demo
<dtm> amazing
<dtm> dneighbo: you already use gnue at your workplace, right?
<chillywilly> typical PHBs
<dneighbo> dtm: some
<dneighbo> small usage
<gontran> pretty demo
<dneighbo> more convience tools for me
<dneighbo> than production applications
<dneighbo> cept DCL
<dneighbo> it is production for whole team
<dtm> dneighbo: Excellent.
<dneighbo> oh for those that didnt know
<dneighbo> m$ created everything
<dneighbo> or so the presentation says
<dneighbo> i.e. innovation does not exist outside redmond
<dtm> everything, huh?  cool
<chillywilly> M$ created the wheel?!?
<chillywilly> WOWOWOWOW!
Action: gontran looks at the m$ tatoo on his wrist
<dtm> chillywilly: they created *YOU*, son!!
<dtm> M$ CREATE ALL YOUR BASE <i>!!</i>
<chillywilly> uh....I don't think so mr. dtm
<dtm> chillywilly: ok
<gontran> heh
Action: chillywilly was hatched not created
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> get it right
Action: dtm erupted from the flames, borne on wings of steel
Action: gontran looks for syringe and tranquilizer
<dtm> IT'S A HEDGEHOG STAMPEDE!!!
<dtm> HEDGEHOGS EVERYWHERE!
<dtm> HEDGEHOG STAMPEDE!
[18:59] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<gontran> LOOKOUT EVERYONE!
Action: gontran drops syringe and runs
<dtm> thankfully my dog is at the head of the pack, but there may not be left of the ol' homestead soon!!
Action: gontran stops and looks for syringe and tranquilizer
<gontran> oh the cycle of violence.  when will it end?
Action: chillywilly wields trout
Action: chillywilly thwaps gontran with the smelly fishie
Action: gontran 's head is whipped to one side, slimy fish slimed dripping from his chin
Action: gontran shakes it off
<dneighbo> the j's left eh
<chillywilly> we booted them
<dneighbo> oop ther eis a jesses 
<dneighbo> ToyMan you really here
<chillywilly> jessesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Action: ajmitch is worried
<dneighbo> you know what i miss nickr and his great comments
<chillywilly> who knows UML?
<dneighbo> i think either they are sedating him at the 'clinc' or
jcater (~jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dneighbo> he has found a real life in bend
<chillywilly> what the diff between the hollow and filed diamond?
<chillywilly> filled even
<dneighbo> about .10 of ink
<chillywilly> aaaaw sheeeeit
<chillywilly> it's jcater in da hizouse!
<chillywilly> dneighbo: thanks man
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you're a life saver
<chillywilly> NOT!
<jcater> dneighbo: is it difficult to get a GNU lawyer to review a NDA?
<chillywilly> ah one is aggregation and one is just a reference....boooyah
Action: dtm forms the Coalition of The Cessation of Violence Against IRC Denizens and Their Trout -- CCVAIDTT
<chillywilly> lol
Action: jcater forms the RACCVAIDTT
<chillywilly> :(
<jcater> the Retaliation Against the Coalition of The Cessation of Violence Against IRC Denizens and Their Trout
<jcater> pronounced Rack - Vad
<chillywilly> rack vait you eman?
<chillywilly> mean even
<jcater> sure
<dtm> jcater: :-o
Action: chillywilly forms the coalition against drubnking typing CADT
<ToyMan> hey dneighbo
<chillywilly> pronounced CAD-T
<ToyMan> kind of sort of really here
Action: dtm gently balances a trout upon the tip of chillywilly's nose
Action: ajmitch forms the CAOLP
Action: chillywilly snaps his neck upward and swallows hte falling trout down whole
<ajmitch> Coalition against Object-Luvin Penguins
<chillywilly> :'(
<gontran> chillywilly can really swallow
<dneighbo> jcater: were you serious re: NDA?
<chillywilly> C A S L K
<chillywilly> coalition against sheep luvin' kiwis
<jcater> dneighbo: yes
<dneighbo> well to my knowledge there is only one GNU lawyer and that is Eben 
<dneighbo> i suppose you could get him to review one, but i would say it would depend on the reason
<chillywilly> Eben Steven
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: ajmitch smakcs chillywilly around with a cattle prod
<jcater> dneighbo: gnue-related
<dneighbo> if it were to determine if it was worth signing or such it would probably not be something they would encourage regardless
<chillywilly> gnue-lovin'
<dneighbo> if its a matter of someone has ALREADY signed something
<dneighbo> and they want to contribute but are nervous that the NDA might prohibit their contribution
<dneighbo> i would think thats why the FSF Counsel exists :)
<chillywilly> just say no to NDAs
<jcater> um
<jcater> lemme explain the situation
<jcater> ---psu: this isn't for the KCs---
<jcater> I've been talking with Avery Dennison
<jcater> about getting all of their label measurements
<jcater> so reports can support all their formats
<dneighbo> um can i interrupt
<jcater> sure
<dneighbo> OpenOffice fully suports that right now today
<dneighbo> as of 1.0
<jcater> you already did :)
<dneighbo> i was floored
<dneighbo> as i was discussing this with co-worker and saying we should reverse engineer their 'tool' that does labels, cards, etc from their stock
<dneighbo> and low and behold open office fully supports with numbers etc
<dneighbo> just wanted to insert that, but plesae continue
<jcater> well, they have no problem providing us with the info
<jcater> and will even list GNUe Reports as a "partner" on their website
<jcater> however they want an NDA
<dneighbo> yummy
<jcater> which floored me at first
<dneighbo> i dont see how that is possible
<jcater> but then they faxed it to me
<jcater> well, hang on
<jcater> from reading it, anything that's public knowledge or is publicly available isn't covered
<jcater> based on the wording, the best I can tell
<jcater> is that they will actually send us samples of their product to test
<jcater> and some samples may not be in the market yet
<dneighbo> hmm
<jcater> and they don't want us sending samples to, say, global, etc
<dneighbo> definitely worth taking to eblen
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I need to scan it then
<jcater> as that's MY impression
<jcater> but
<jcater> IANAL
<dneighbo> as offerring free software to do this stuff is HUGE for GNU
<dneighbo> imho
<dneighbo> as its one thing my wife is bitc^H^H^H^H complaining about
<dneighbo> she has a LOAD of sample avery stuff that we cant use
<dneighbo> as we dont own windows anymore
<dneighbo> specifically 'greeting cards'
<gontran> gottago
gontran (~gontran@ip68-3-244-71.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: "[BX] Choosey moms choose BitchX!"
<dneighbo> i.e. she got for free sampler packs of like 3 of every type of product
<dneighbo> and got like 4 of these free samplers
<dneighbo> jcater : please do scan
<dneighbo> just tried calling FSF offices everyone already gone for night
<dneighbo> sometimes get lucky and can catch paul there
<jcater> ah
<dneighbo> if you can scan and email me the NDA i can try to get a preliminary view point from FSF
<dneighbo> and then get Eben involved
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> or certainly you could as well if you so desire, but i dont mind doing it if it gives you more time to work on gnue :)
<jcater> I don't really have time at the moment
<jcater> but I wanted to get the ball rolling
<jcater> (as it took 3 weeks to get this fax)
<jcater> as I think this would ROCK
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> btw: what is status of reports for 'mail merge' and for using as SERVER mode?
<dneighbo> basically i have mandate to make a report at work for DCL
<dneighbo> basically is an Service Request Form
<dneighbo> its a word document
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> i thought it would be easiest to use it as template
<dneighbo> and setup mail merge on it
<jcater> I haven't tested merge since my addition of namespaces
<dneighbo> and have dcl call the mail merge
<jcater> but that will be ironed out before the pending release
<dneighbo> and place resulting .doc file somewhere and return a url for where itsat
<jcater> reports is ready to be server-ized with gnue rpc and GServerApp
<jcater> however
<jcater> I plan to do 0.0.1 without server support
<dneighbo> well im thinking jan got it working with php
<jcater> (as I'm ready to get it out the door)
<dneighbo> grpc that is
<dneighbo> jcater: thats fine
<chillywilly> this buuuud's fooooor yooooooouu
<chillywilly> and you and you and you
<jcater> but I think server support will be a small step
<jcater> (I've designed reports all along to keep server stuff separate from client stuff)
<jcater> and, don't forget, I started grpc for reports
<jcater> (not for geas :)
<jcater> until Coding Machine, Part Deaux came along
<jcater> reports was going to be the test case for grpc
<chillywilly> who is that?
<jcater> but this is certainly fine :)
<jcater> siesel
<dneighbo> deux
<jcater> sorry
<dneighbo> ce n'est pas problema
<dneighbo> er un probleme
<dneighbo> starting to mix my french and spanish
<dneighbo> in french class we used to have to watch french commercials my all time favorite was
<dneighbo> one that was american too
<dneighbo> for aqua fresh
<chillywilly> brb
<dneighbo> the jingle went
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<dneighbo> 1 - 2 - 3   AQUAFRESH 3
<dneighbo> un deux trois AQUAFRESH trois
<dneighbo> ah fond memories
<dneighbo> the other one was we had to choose a novel to read, i chose one about early france and feuds between families
<dneighbo> i learned that the french have a LOT of ways to express 'revenge' :)
<dneighbo> i think all that .NET presentation made me tired
<dtm> dneighbo: Yeesss...  YOu are feeling veerrry verrry sleepy.  When I snap my fingers, you will  be in a deeeeep sleeeep.  *snap*  You will prepare for porting all your infrastructure.
<dtm> Our protocols are oooooopen  and secuuuuuure...
<dtm> Pay no attention to the maaaan behind the currrrrtain.....
Action: ajmitch slashes dtm in half with a debian cd
<dtm> Your attention focuses away from the maaaaan and only on the sound of my voooiice...
Action: ajmitch puts a gag in dtm's mouth & cuts off his fingers to stop him typing
<ajmitch> resist, dneighbo, resist!
<dneighbo> cant resist the light
<dtm>  ,mcm,ck.lxcksdxjme,kf.
Action: dtm taps a steady rhythm with his stumps
Action: dneighbo runs off
Action: ajmitch commits the ultimate evil & installs winXP on dtm's box
<dtm> ajmitch: that is very evil because it's emulated and causes the host OS to swap too :)
<dneighbo> you bastards killed kenny
<dtm> dneighbo: no, kenny committed hari kari (sp?) this time
<dtm> the producers of GNUe thought it'd be more dramatic that way
ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-1-ip89.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: No route to host
Action: dneighbo runs away
dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "homeward bound"
jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201016.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Maniac-yawa (~User@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> anybody home?
<ajmitch> yup
<jamest> derek: did you get a chance to try out prequery?
<jamest> did anyone try the new icons
<jamest> and like/dislike them?
<ajmitch> haven't looked
<jcater> wassup!?!?
<jamest> plumbing
<jamest> my bathroom decided to leak today
<jcater> ah
Action: jamest is so happy
<jcater> well, you should aim better
<jamest> er, um, shhhhhhhhh, I don't want the wife to figure out the truth
Action: ajmitch tries gfcvs with LD_LIBRARY_PATH set
<jamest> derek: and preInsert?
<jcater> I don't think he's home yet
<jcater> that west coast freak
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> looks nice, jamest
<jamest> gonme2 icons
<ajmitch> yeah
<jamest> gnome even
Action: ajmitch is running gnome2 desktop at the moment
<jamest> derek: any more word on abiword
<jamest> i'm in docbook but not getting much responce
<jamest> beyond Emacs
<jcater> I say let's write our docs in GRD format
<jcater> and have our transform engine convert to whatever format we want!
<jcater> even CSV!
<jamest> rock!
<derek> havent gotten to look at anything
<derek> wife put me to work making documents for her
<jamest> oooooo
<jamest> that bites
<derek> am i nuts or does abiword not support tables?
<jamest> i don't know
Action: derek is apt-getting openoffice for her
<jamest> I'm currently look at a kate plugin
<jamest> but it needs kde 3
<derek> kate plugin?
<derek> for???
<jamest> also i know old word perf had xml editor
<derek> docbook
<jcater> derek: no tables :(
<jamest> yes docbook autocompletion
<derek> jcater: i guess i am blown away (though shouldnt be)
<jamest> which would be more bearable
<jcater> kate plugin?
<derek> that people are claiming abiword is good ms word alternative
<jamest> http://www.danielnaber.de/tmp/
<derek> but it doesnt even support tables
<jcater> it's really sad... abiword is kick-ass
<jamest> someone in #docbook just suggested it
<jcater> but lacks table support
<jcater> everything else about abiword is really cleanly implemented
<derek> jcater: yes i rather like it but havent used other than for quick stuff 
<jcater> but NO DAMN TABLES
<jamest> hey
<derek> jamest: i think that abiword has like a special thing
<derek> that is 'present as web'
<derek> im thinking making 'present as docbook'
<derek> then no autocompletion or such necessary
<derek> its just normal
<jamest> derek: that flash plugin worked like a charm
<derek> ?
<derek> you mean the debian?
<jamest> i forgot to take your url to work but found it on google
<jamest> yes
<derek> cool
<derek> make some happy users?
<jamest> flash-mozilla
<jamest> only me so far
<jamest> work has been hell
<jamest> http://linuxfocus.org/English/May2002/article201.shtml
trouser (~trouser@210.54.169.243) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hi trouser
<trouser> hi ajmitch
<jamest> derek: any chance you could test that
<jamest> soon 
<derek> i can try but wife will pull me away very soon :)
<derek> holy crap
<jamest> as i'm not going to be gnue'ing much this weekend
<derek> my connection is on fire
<derek> darn openoffice (67mb) downloaded in under 5 minutes
<jamest> seems jcater is going to be slumming it at my place some this weekend
<derek> at work it took like 12
<derek> cool
<jamest> so the wife can get to know someone from gnue
<jcater> slummin?
<derek> grabbing cvs
<jamest> and then immediately ban him from #gnuenterprise upon their return to TN
<jcater> I thought we were bringing some southern class up north
<derek> rofl
<derek> just found MAJOR bug in openoffice :)
<derek> it pops up Welcome to address finder
<derek> if you click next normally it cant find things
<derek> so i click cancel
<ajmitch> and it dies...
<derek> well if you just click cancel with out trying first it barfs :)
<ajmitch> yes, but OO 1.0 hasn't started up here yet ;)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> leave it to derek
<jamest> openoffice 1.0 was the last piece i need to convert our grad student offices to linux
<jamest> bwahahahahaha
<ajmitch> jamest: i've got the same prob as derek has with OO
<jamest> huh
<ajmitch> the address converter
<derek> yummy open office kick arse
<derek> with a speed machine
<derek> i really think its better than office
<derek> er m$ office
<ajmitch> it takes about a minute to load here
<derek> and i am forced to use one and use the other optionally
<jamest> on my 800MHz 128MB ram it's a bit slow
<ajmitch> perhaps 2 minutes
<jamest> have not tried it here yet
<dtm> jamest: doesn't low ram suck?
<jamest> 128MB low?
<dtm> jamest: and isn't it amazing that 128-192 MB is considered low/
<jamest> sigh
<derek> ok testing now
<dtm> jamest: so which dept's grad students are you converting to linux/
<dtm> ?
<jamest> math
<dtm> elite
<dtm> ^5
<jamest> we're already over 50% linux
<jamest> and I'm starting to work on the main office :)
<dtm> :-o
<jamest> as that's the last big holdout
<dtm> jamest: yew da man.
Action: ajmitch wonders if this computer has been clocked down to 40MHz instead of 400
<jamest> almost all profs use it
<dtm> jamest: are you doing so in place, on the same hardware?
<derek> hmmm im not sure i like new icons
<derek> well i like them
<jamest> yip
<derek> but the arrows seem wrong
<derek> i understand its more correct to point up and down
<dtm> jamest: wow and the device support just happens to be compatible huh?
<jamest> the arrows are debateable
<derek> but windows users will be confused
<derek> as they are used to
<derek> << < > >>
<derek> or such
<jamest> i've got back and forth on that
<jcater> we're using OpenOffice at NCS now
<derek> but i like the way the arrows look :)
<jamest> as I've started describing forms like a rolodex
<jcater> I demo'ed OpenOffice to accounting before I left
<jamest> and that they are flipping thru it
<jcater> and they're gung-ho aboutit
<jamest> our office mgr is using OO to do all our accounting
<jamest> er
<derek> jamest: yes it makes sense (the arrows)
<jamest> all our spreadsheets
<derek> its just a learning curve for winblows users :)
<jamest> well
<jamest> the ince thing is
<jamest> we can include the others too
<jamest> and a few edits in gnue.conf put the others in place
Action: ajmitch speeds OO up about 10X by turning off AA fonts
<derek> the undo is a bit scary (only becuase some people might not see the undo arrow) and think its save :)
<derek> but over all they are slick looking :)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> a few of the mappings aren't great
<jamest> i mailled tigert asking for more icons
<jamest> but no responce
<jcater> but until we can snag us an artist
<jamest> i think i cc'd a few people on that 
<derek> fwiw: i think prequery is working
Action: derek does happy dance
<jamest> it better be
<ajmitch> how's reports shaping up?
<jamest> it was being a bitch of a bugger to me last nite :)
<jamest> bitch of a bugger?
<jamest> sigh
Action: jamest hits reset switch of brain
<jamest> preinsert working?
<derek> before pulling trigger
<derek> is this correct
<derek>     <block name="blckPerson" datasource="dtsrcperson">
<derek>       <trigger src="getFullName" name="Trigger_1" type="ON-SWITCH"/>
<derek>       <trigger name="Trigger_2" type="PRE-COMMIT">
<derek> blckPerson.autofillBySequence('ntryPK','seq_dcl_contact')
<derek> </trigger>
Action: derek thinks on-switch trigger was busted too, but i didnt complain :)
<jamest> nope
<jamest>       <trigger type="PRE-INSERT">
<derek> dcl=# select * from seq_dcl_contact;
<derek>   sequence_name  | last_value | increment_by | max_value  | min_value | cache_value | is_cycled | is_called 
<derek> -----------------+------------+--------------+------------+-----------+-------------+-----------+-----------
<derek>  seq_dcl_contact |         19 |            1 | 2147483647 |         1 |           1 | f         | t
<derek> (1 row)
<jamest>         print "FOOOOOO!"
<jamest>         inpId.autofillBySequence('seq_foo')
<jamest>       </trigger>
<jamest>       <entry field="id" name="inpId" typecast="number" width="10" x="7" y="1"/>
<jamest> from my test form
<derek> dcl=# 
<derek> ok
<derek> here goes nothing :)
<jamest> you don't need the print statement though
<derek> so
<derek> 'ntryPk', 'seq_dcl_contact'
<derek> is wrong?
<derek> i.e. dont need the 'ntryPK'
<derek> ?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> you need it
<jamest> just like this
<derek> ah 
<derek> ntryPK.au....
<jamest> ntryPK.autofillBySequence('seq_dcl_contact')
<derek>       <trigger name="Trigger_2" type="PRE-INSERT">
<derek> ntryPK.autofillBySequence('seq_dcl_contact')
<derek> </trigger>
<jamest> yip
<jamest> that should do it
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/fsfoffice/tar$ ~/bin/gfcvs contact_manager.gfd 
<derek> Unable to load locale information falling back to default English language translations.
<derek> Here!
<derek> Seqnum 20
<derek> that looks promising :)
<derek> the seqnum 20
<derek> rock
<derek> we are in business
<derek> it seems to be working
<derek> on my 'bust shit up form' even
Nick change: Maniac-yawa -> Maniac
<derek> grrrrrrrr
<derek> major gross bug
<derek> somehow got stuck in an entry
<derek> ui focus is hosed
<jamest> what!?!?!?!
<derek> i was in a normal entry (or cursor was)
<derek> started typing and it typed in the combo box
<derek> then was in endless error message loop
<derek> trying to delete text
<jamest> argh!
<derek> got out of it finally and thing appear somewhat normal
Action: jamest forgot about displayhandler issue
<jamest> i assume this is displayhandler key error?
<derek> i think so
Action: derek is bad user and didnt write it down (even though i got it 20 times) :)
<derek> im impressed my trick data navigation works again
<derek> as well as primary key
<derek> only thing left on my 'gaunlet form' not working is the ON-SWITCH
<derek> trigger
<derek> btw: is the primarykey thing postgres only?
<derek> or will this work with mysql also? (someone on the list wants to know)
<jamest> primaryKey?
<derek> the other thing that has come up with new spec is can we rewrite ui portions or data binding on the fly?
<derek> autoFillBySequence()
<derek> not PK
<derek> re: mysql
<jamest> um
<jamest> the driver must support it IIRC
<derek> ok that might be something i can look at
<derek> all in all good job guys
<jamest> the code is in GFEntry
<derek> i think its back to usable for what i need for FSF
<derek> the only thing i see as going to be a pain
<derek> is they want to let someone pick US or Foreign address
<derek> and store in different table (sigh)
<derek> will have to think more on that
Action: derek has to put kids in bed and spend time with wife
<derek> hope i answered preliminary testing questions?
<jamest> yip
<derek> i will hopefully put more testing into it tonight
<jamest> i'll look into dropdowns quickly
<derek> and if you arent around will submit via dcl
<jamest> but I'm trying for 10PM bedtime
<jamest> and 5AM wake time now
<jamest> so it may wait till 5AM :)
<derek> ok i cant create the focus error
<derek> but i can create the annoyance it caused
<derek> go into a drop down that has a FK list or whatever you call it
<derek> and type in that drop down
<derek> if you exit it tells you that its not a valid item (which it should)
<jamest> btw - did you get work order close/ticket close things yesterday?
<derek> but then if you click the dropdown to pick a valid one
<jamest> on the stuff closed out
<derek> it gives you the error again and again
<derek> and then finally lets you pick a new item
<jamest> ah
<derek> jamest: yes i did
<jamest> damn
<derek> many thanks
<jamest> just making sure it worked
<jamest> as I didn't get the wierd mail error
<jamest> oooo
<jamest> psgml is emacs mode 
<jamest> for docbook
<chillywilly> you use emacs?
Action: chillywilly just watched Star Wars Episode I on TV
<derek> jamest if you give it a docbook dtd
<derek> it does auto complete :)
<derek> ok i have to run for real bbl
<jamest> l8r
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