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<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> hi
<psu> KC has been a bit fiddly this week
<psu> loads of activity on the mail lists
<psu> and 
<psu> a large numer of mail threads
<psu> still being discussed as of the cut-off date
<psu> which means
<psu> they get bumped to next issue
<ajmitch> ah, threads spanning weeks
<ajmitch> bugger
<psu> so I already have some of the next-but-one issue written ;-)
<psu> IRC's not such a problem
<psu> as I just ignore thread span 
<psu> and say 
<psu> "Continuing the discussion from Issue foo, Section bar..."
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> big KC this week?
<ajmitch> i'd imagine it would be with the amount of discussion that's gone on
<psu> do large members of the genus Ursulae perform defacatory functions in arboreal areas?
<ajmitch> not sure what the genus Ursulae is, sorry ;)
<ajmitch> i guess it's bears
<ajmitch> by the context of your paraphrase
<psu> 75654 May 11 07:18 gnue28.xml
<psu> ;-)
<ajmitch> not bad
<ajmitch> when do you send that away?
<psu> right now ;-)
<psu> meanwhile, the spillover threads are already
<psu> psu        17418 May 11 07:18 gnue29.xml
Action: ajmitch wants #28!!
<ajmitch> let's hope he's awake, otherwise i have to wait for ages ;)
<psu> I guess I ought to store the issues in CVS
<psu> (not necc. GNUe)
<psu> and then anyone who's truly sad
<psu> s/truly sad/enthusiastic & interested
<psu> can look at them as they are written ;-)
<ajmitch> woo, that would rock! ;)
Action: ajmitch salivates patiently ;)
<psu> oh look, my mailer has frozen
<psu> (this is *not* just an attempt to wind up ajmitch)
<psu> s/just/
Action: ajmitch tells psu to apt-get install mutt
<psu> actually, i'm going to need mutt if the mailing lists stay this busy
<psu> as mutt is a threaded mail reader 
<psu> = better for sorting out KC threads
<Isomer> mutt is kinda nice
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> i quite like it
<Isomer> however it's got a few annoying missing features
<ajmitch> like?
<Isomer> eg: I want to specify the From: address based on the Delivered-To: header
<ajmitch> ah right
<Isomer> and it doesn't do it's list management via the List-*: headers
<ajmitch> instead of the folder-hook method
<Isomer> are two major ones
<Isomer> ajmitch: right
Action: ajmitch has many many mutt folders
<ajmitch> and i never bothered with list management stuff :)
<Isomer> perry@storm:~/mail$ wc -l mailboxes.muttrc 
<Isomer>      47 mailboxes.muttrc
<Isomer> :0:
<Isomer> * ^List-Post:.*<mailto:\/[A-Za-z0-9][-A-Za-z0-9\.@]+
<Isomer> lists/$MATCH
<Isomer> :)
<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch CathSOC] grep mailboxes ~/.mutt/muttrc |wc -l
<ajmitch>      67
<Isomer> I then have mutt run a script that sourts out all my mailboxes
<ajmitch> ok
Action: ajmitch uses procmail for his filtering
<Isomer> ah
<Isomer> procmail filters based on the rule above
<ajmitch> yeah, saw that
<ajmitch> certain lists don't have the right headers tho
<Isomer> then .muttrc has "source `bin/findmailboxes.sh ; echo mail/mailboxes.muttrc`"
<ajmitch> ok
<Isomer> ajmitch: yeah, I do them manually, sigh
<ajmitch> sounds like food is ready - bbl :)
<Isomer> :
<Isomer> :)
<psu> bbl2
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<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<reinhard> good morning/evening ajmitch
<reinhard> and hello all
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<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> store them in the GNUe CVS
<ICJ> btw:
<ICJ> why do the GNUe mailing lists add [Gnue-dev] in the subject?
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<Arturas> Hello
<heikoV> hello Arturas
<Yurik> Arturas: hi
<heikoV> So
<heikoV> How can I contribute to this project?
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<Arturas> tes
[06:30] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<Arturas> test
<Arturas> sometimes netsplit is really awfull thing :\
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<ICJ> Is there yet any work on GEAR done?
<reinhard> gear?
<ICJ> GEOR
<ICJ> sorry
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> no not yet
<reinhard> i'm not quite sure if we should keep all those acronyms
<reinhard> or maybe just call it obj-repos
<reinhard> or something to that effect
<reinhard> which would be much more understandable
<ICJ> hm ...
<ICJ> ich werd jetzt ins freibad gehen
<ICJ> I take pencil and paper with me
<ICJ> so I can take a few notes on GEOR
<reinhard> cool
<reinhard> l8r
<ICJ> and then I will start to do some coding on GEOR
<ICJ> next week or so
<ICJ> i really must have a complete GNUe
<ICJ> I need it for the management of my pics
<ICJ> (i have a digicam for two weeks now)
<ICJ> and for managing abuse handling
<ICJ> (the spam mails and faxes and letters I get)
<ICJ> they always advertise the same 0190 numbers
<ICJ> a database would be helpful in managing everything
<ICJ> it's also always the same companies
<ICJ> and for the pics: I want to store date and time and location and event and persons visible on the pic etc.
<ICJ> not really business apps
<ICJ> but I think GNUe would be suitable for them
<reinhard> ICJ: for the time being you could probably use forms in 2-tier mode
<reinhard> but it would be great to have a test case for appserver :)
<reinhard> off to garden work
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<ICJ> 2-tier mode?
<ICJ> that seems a dirty hack to me
Nick change: ICJ -> ICJ-away
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<Yurik> chillywilly: hi
<chillywilly> hiya
<heikoV> man ignore
<chillywilly> no no no, it would be /help ignore
<chillywilly> this is IRC ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, I am better today honest
<Yurik> :-)
<heikoV> just kidding, Chillywilly
Action: Yurik found that object systems could be greatly described in predicate logic few days ago and still "drunk" of happiness
<chillywilly> sure you are, it's not like I never get shit in this channle....plzzzzz
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<Yurik> psu: hi
<chillywilly> hey psu
<psu> hi
<psu> KC #28 is up
<psu> we just wait until ajmitch has gone to bed 
<chillywilly> w00000
<psu> to wind him up
<psu> a mere 28 threads this week ;-)
Action: ajmitch is not yet in bed :P
<psu> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020511_28.html
<psu> s/we just wait until ajmitch has gone to bed/we just wait until ajmitch should have gone to bed
<chillywilly> ajmitch is a crab
<chillywilly> he needs a long nap
<chillywilly> that's my story and I'm stickin' to it
<Isomer> heh
<Isomer> ooh
<Isomer> KC!
<psu> i used to be able to do all-nighters when I was a student, too
Action: Isomer feeds the addiction!
<psu> but it was usually beer, gridiron or politics
<psu> rather than IRC
<psu> Hey, Zack has got the cross-referencing working again
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<psu> hi heikoV
<heikoV> hello psu
<psu> did anyone answer your offer of help?
<psu> There's lots to do
<psu> and I'm sure the guys would welcome 
<psu> any willing hands
<heikoV> Arturos (or so) told me I should contact dneihgbo
<psu> Best place to start is what you would like to do ;-)
<heikoV> Building applications for gnue
<heikoV> Not the technical stuff
<heikoV> I am an amateur programmer
<psu> <aol>me too</aol>
<chillywilly> heheh
<heikoV> In real life I am a accountant / junior controller
Action: psu welcomes a fellow accountant
<psu> we'll outnumber the hackers in here by, say, 2050 at this rate
<heikoV> what part of the project do you work on chillywilly?
<psu> ;-)
<psu> have you seen the GL proposal on the website?
Action: psu admits its' been a while since he looked at it
<chillywilly> heikoV: I try to work on GEAS
<heikoV> I think bookkeeping and database-management are related jobs
<heikoV> Does it work?
<heikoV> ;-)
<psu> it's just a proposal
<psu> we have held off implementing 
<psu> uintil we have an appserver
<psu> since
<psu> although you *could* do a GL in 2-tier
<psu> 3-tier is much nicer
<psu> this decision was taken before it was realised how long a working appserver would take ;-)
<psu> but 
<psu> as a free s/w project
<heikoV> well: the 2-tier thing looks a bit like making a database with m*crosoft acces
<psu> we are free of deadlines 
<psu> don't worry, we don;t operate a swear box on this channel ;-)
<Isomer> what do you traditionally do in the middle tier of a 3 teir system?
<heikoV> I guess I can design tables, forms and reports in 2-tier and hope that they will work in n-tier.
<heikoV> psu: did you have a specifiek task in mind?
<psu> Isomer - I think "traditional 3-tier" is almost a contradiction in terms
<Isomer> ok :)
<Isomer> what examples of things can you suggest that are done in the 2nd teir of a 3 tier system?
<psu> heikoV - not really.
<chillywilly> Isomer: well our middle is going to do object-relational layer, support various remote protocols, support various langauges for object methods, etc.
<psu> Isomer - the key thing is that the middle tier enables you to seperate the biz logic from the Forms
<psu> this applies whether you have a "thin" web based client 
<chillywilly> fyi, don't read neitzsche before going to bed ;)
<psu> or a sligthly fatter client as per our python FOrms client
<chillywilly> you will have nightmare
<psu> For instance
<chillywilly> s
<psu> a basic rule of accountancy is that journals must balance
<psu> heikoV will back me up on this ;-)
<Isomer> double entry accounting
<Isomer> yah
<chillywilly> can I flood the channel?
<psu> In two-tier, you would have a trigger on the journal form submit button
<heikoV> I am pro
<psu> to validate and print a "add it up, bozo" error msg
Action: psu waits for chillywilly's flood
<chillywilly> basically the apserver pulls the logic form the client and the database
<chillywilly> I'm not going to bother
<psu> ok
<heikoV> so what is the status of the app-server?
<heikoV> will it be difficult to program?
<chillywilly> it's "in the works"
<chillywilly> well we scrapped the old one
<psu> In three-tier, the validation would be done by the middle tier
<chillywilly> heikoV: you should check out that nice KC ;)
<psu> & would sned the error msg back to the forms client
<psu> which means that when you need to chnage the biz logic
<chillywilly> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020511_28.html#9
<psu> you don't have to change any code on the client
<Isomer> ok
<psu> e.g. my previous employer had a two-tier Finance system written in Oracle forms
<psu> they discovered that under certain circumstances 
<psu> you could persuade the journal entry form to accept an unbalanced journal
<psu> so they issued a patch
<psu> but it was client-side patch
<Isomer> which only half the company used?
<psu> so if a customer had it installed on 200 PCs 
<psu> you had to apply patch on each
<psu> 3-tier is much more elegant
<psu> as you just apply the patch on the app server
<chillywilly> I haven't thought of it that way, that a good reason to have a middle layer isn't it?
<psu> That's one advantedge of middle tier
<psu> the other pros
<psu> are things like 
<chillywilly> sure, but I didn't think of that one
<psu> redundancy, scalability 
<psu> etc
<chillywilly> yea
<Isomer> GNUe allows you to store your forms on HTTP doesn't it?
<psu> Also ability to use OO 
<Isomer> so you could update the HTTP server and suddenly they're all updated :)
<Isomer> hmm
<psu> which i suppose isn't completely impossible with 2-tier
<psu> but overkill
<Isomer> you should store db configuration in "~/.gnuerc", and require entering the password on startup
<psu> The other claimed benefit of 3-tier
<psu> is that you can have "thin clients"
<psu> but 
<psu> this is fairly notional
<psu> since you tend to discover that 
<psu> the requirements for a "thin" client are not much less than for "thick"
<psu> and in any case
<psu> look at the Oracle Forms Java client
<psu> which is IIRC a 13MB download
<psu> suddenly you begin to see why the likes of derek and jcater
<psu> aren't keen on web-based
<psu> Something like LTSP 
<psu> is a better thin client solution
<Isomer> LTSP?
<chillywilly> Linux Terminal Server Project
<psu> LInux TErminal Server Project
<chillywilly> beat you!
<chillywilly> :)
<Isomer> ahh
<psu> ha!
<psu> I was distracted
<Isomer> do they have Xterms on a floppy? :)
<psu> as Liverpool have just scored
<Isomer> heh
<psu> and now Sunderland have as well
<Isomer> At university, the networking reasearch group "grabbed" all the old PC's that the CS dept was throwing out, upgraded the moniters and video cards, and brought a dual proc athlon 1800, and runs about 10 people all as Xterms
<Isomer> anyway
<Isomer> 2:30am
<Isomer> I really must sleep
<Isomer> G'night everybody
<psu> nite
<Isomer> thanks for the KC psu ;)
<psu> ta
<chillywilly> psu: you rock
<psu> heikoV : http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/accounting_package.pdf
<psu> is the proposal
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<chillywilly> hi reinhard
<chillywilly> psu: who made that pdf?
<psu> dunno. before my time
<psu> looks a bit "out of focus", doesn't it?
<psu> source code is docbook, ISTR
<chillywilly> that's the accounting thing that what's his name did?
<psu> Louis
<chillywilly> yea
<psu> a retired finance director
<chillywilly> ok, I have skimmed that once or twice
<psu> sadly 
<psu> he got "unretired"
<psu> & hasn't been seen for a while
<psu> may still be in touch with derek and/or neilt
<psu> but neil has had his own mad goats to deal with ;-)
<chillywilly> what goats are those?
<chillywilly> neil is a big time eec now
<chillywilly> exec
<psu> mad goats = real life work
<psu> in this context
<psu> I suspect my own mad goats may be pulling on their raping boots
<psu> over the next 6 months
<psu> should still be able to do KC tho'
<psu> if not much else ;-)
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<chillywilly> man it is getting full in here ;)
<chillywilly> howdy jeff
<jbailey> Heya Daniel.
<heikoV> What do I do with this PDF, when I have read it?
<psu> heikoV - if you have any comments, post them to gnue@gnu.org
<psu> as we have been fairly quiet on the Financials front recently
<psu> now that the appserver is beginning to become a reality
<psu> we may be in a position to atcually implement the proposal in next few months
<psu> so if there is anything wrong/obscure
<psu> probably makes sense to sort it out now
<heikoV> OK, I might send it to my father
<heikoV> It used to be his job to design such systems
<heikoV> than SAP came...
<heikoV> is the docbook source still available?
<psu> should be in CVS somewhere
<heikoV> or something that will make the file readable?
Action: psu will find you an URL
<chillywilly> well if he's willing to provide input I think that would be a good thing for those that know how to code and know the nitty gritty financials stuff
<heikoV> ??
<chillywilly> I mean it is a good thing to have people who know both
<chillywilly> I don't know dick about financials ;)
<psu> http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/docbook/articles/accounting_package.lyx
<psu> it's actually lyx rather than docbook
<psu> chillywilly - the most frightening thing in the world is an accountant-hacker
<psu> I should know
<chillywilly> why is that?
<chillywilly> hey I know how to use GNUCash too keep track of my personal finances
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> heikoV - the source code is a bit messy, but probably just about readable as straight txt
<psu> if you don't have lyx
Action: chillywilly doesn't like lyx it's not even real LaTeX unless it is eported
<chillywilly> exported even
<heikoV> oh no: that strange lyx again
<psu> which has some non-free dependancies
<chillywilly> yip
<heikoV> so that is why some people are affraid of me.. I hack our accounting software all the time...
<chillywilly> hehe
<psu> "oh we don't bother with journals, UPDATE GL_BALANCES is much quicker..."
<psu> "you can get the audit trail by grepping the logs"
<heikoV> we still use a clipper-application... that is asking for it...
<heikoV> next year we will implement GNUe and DCL of couse ;-)
<psu> Accountants who know SQL are like cops with guns
<psu> they can be far more effective in some situations 
<psu> that there unarmed conterparts could never handle
<psu> but 
<psu> there's always the risk that they'll shoot their partner in the foot
<psu> SQL is about the only thing that can break their 
<psu> addiction to spreadsheets 
<heikoV> :)
<psu> (which, 99% of the time, means Excel)
<heikoV> What else?
<heikoV> Lotus 123 has dynamic macro
<heikoV> that's frightening
<heikoV> a  macro that can change its own code
<chillywilly> heh
<heikoV> And most companies have way to much money to install gnumeric
<chillywilly> or they don't even use gnu/linux ;)
<heikoV> I want to do an egrep ^\ on the lyx file, to clear the tags
<heikoV> but bash complains about a trailing backslash
<chillywilly> quote it
<chillywilly> "^\"
<chillywilly> does that help?
<Yurik> ^\\ ?
<chillywilly> or does the shell interpret stuff in quotes?
<chillywilly> I forget
<heikoV> quoting doesn't help
<chillywilly> single quotes?
<Yurik> heikoV: try double backslash, as I showed above
Action: derek is back (gone 24:02:34)
<heikoV> yurik: doesn't help either
<chillywilly> if you use single quotes then egrep bitches about the backslash ;)
<chillywilly> this work
<chillywilly> s
<chillywilly> egrep '^\\' accounting_package.lyx
<heikoV> thanks chillywilly
<chillywilly> so I guess " " is interpreted by the shell and ' ' is not ;)
<chillywilly> answered my own question ;P
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<heikoV> now the -v option and I have text-only
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<chillywilly> not really
<chillywilly> hi fitzix
<fitzix> hey Dan, how are ya? :)
<chillywilly> ok
<fitzix> just stopping in really quick - have to go get ready for graduation - I just wanted to stop in and say hi
<heikoV> *jj
<derek> hi fitzix
<fitzix> hey derek - how are ya?
<derek> busy :(
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
<fitzix> I know exactly what you mean :)
<fitzix> I'm in the beginning stages of actually kicking Phasix Systems off, trying to get caught up on DotGNU and other very time-consuming things :)
<fitzix> I have a series of low to high work projects for Phasix Systems organized and a progression to do them in... So, I think we have enough to get started...
<fitzix> gotta run - ttyl
<derek> l8r
<derek> congrats
<fitzix> Thanks
<fitzix> ttyl
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<derek> man you are a slow crack smoker
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<chillywilly> well actually went to take my mom back to carx case her brakes were done
<chillywilly> hey derek do a whois on phasix-systems.com once ;)
<chillywilly> speaking of which what do you think would be a good domain name for Liberty Enterprise Technologies? Unfortunately, the TLA is taken :(
<derek> ?
<chillywilly> TLA == three letter acronym
<chillywilly> what is confusing you?
Action: derek miss reading
<derek> i thought you sayd would that be a good name for LET
<derek> not WHAT would be :)
<chillywilly> nah, what's a good domain name to register since I can't get let.com
<psu> www.liberty.com - bet that's gone too
<derek> libertytech
<chillywilly> hmmm, mayeb I can get let.com
<chillywilly> there ya go
<chillywilly> that's not too shabby
<chillywilly> thanks derek
<chillywilly> http://www.let.com/index.asp
<chillywilly> heh, looks like a domain squatter ;)
<chillywilly> how do you go into the domain name selling business isn't that just wrong?
<chillywilly> I think it is a pretty shitty thing to do
<chillywilly> buy up domain names in order to sell them
<psu> it's almost a freedom style issue
<psu> if you don't own your own name, what do you own?
<psu> UK courts came down hard on cybersquatters
<chillywilly> good
<psu> after a group registered www.bt.co.uk
<psu> (sorta like registering att.com)
<chillywilly> so I guess I could get that name form them
<chillywilly> from
<chillywilly> man they sound like a TV lenny operation
<chillywilly> buy your domain names at reign domain no!
<chillywilly> now
<chillywilly> so fucking sleazy and cheazy
<derek> almost as hosed as 'licensing' software :)
<psu> wasn't sex.com auctioned on ebay w/ a reserve of $1m at one stage?
<chillywilly> that's just wrong
<psu> about the same time they had the kidney scandel
<chillywilly> dude thye make you pay $20 per domain with a 2 domain minimum purchase
<chillywilly> assholes
<chillywilly> you can register for a year with some people for $10
<chillywilly> do they make you pay 4 times as much
<chillywilly> s/do/so
<chillywilly> fuck that, I'd rather use libertytech then give jerks like these my money
<derek> if you fucked it, you might get a discount
<chillywilly> ah, yea anyway
<chillywilly> brb
<nickr> I can sell kidneys on ebay?
<nickr> my financial woes are over!
<drochaid> you may not be able to sell more than 2 you know
<nickr> Thats what you think ;)
Action: drochaid marvels at the fast regenerating mutant :)
<nickr> you're operating under the false assumption that I'd be selling my own kidneys...
Action: drochaid puts on his kevlar jump suit
<drochaid> keep away, ok?
Action: nickr grins
<psu> http://www.urbanlegends.com/medical/organ.theft/index.html
<nickr> thats no urban legend!
Action: drochaid peeks
<chillywilly> heh
<drochaid> yeah, that's no legend and nickr should know ... business going well still nickr? ;)
Action: chillywilly is away: family stuff
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<ICJ> shit
<ICJ> power failure
Action: derek is away: spending time with mommy
<psu> don;t worry - all you missed was some kidney-stealing discussion ;-)
<nickr> hehe
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<drochaid> oh mommy ... I thought derek was off spending time with his money :)
<nickr> haha
<drochaid> well, I've still got a migrain, so I can't read off the screen that well ;P
<psu> drochaid - she's the one with the "interesting" jokes
<psu> IIRC
<ICJ> hi
<ICJ> reinhard?
<nickr> derek's mom tells dirty jokes!?
<drochaid> interesting jokes? haven't heard about that yet
<psu> they're never on topic so don't make it into KC ;-)
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> can someone tell me wtf my lightbox is?
<drochaid> yeah that's right, I've got a light sensitive migrain and I'm wanting to stare close up at some negs over a lightbox :P
<psu> drochaid - use red light?
<psu> a la darkrooms?
<drochaid> that kinda makes it difficult to assess colour balance
<drochaid> I bought a daylight balanced lighbox to help me
<drochaid> unfortunately I bought the A4 slimline version so I could carry it with me ... which also makes it hard to find
<ICJ> I have written a paper on a hook system for class interaction
<ICJ> but up to know it's on paper
<ICJ> I have to type it
<ICJ> anyone here?
<psu> only virtually ;-)
<reinhard> sorry ICJ
<ICJ> *g*
<reinhard> i am here
<reinhard> but i am just about being kicked off the computer by my wife ;)
Action: psu has separate laptops for wife & self
<psu> less hassle
<ICJ> yes
<jbailey> Are there any timesheet apps for Gnue yet?
<ICJ> a personal computer is a _personal_ computer
<psu> actually, we each have a work laptop and one personal laptop between us
<ICJ> I think we should concentrate on the n-tier system
<reinhard> well i'll let her have the computer this evening as tomorrow is mother's day
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:33:17)
<reinhard> so it's my mother's day present for her ;)
Action: chillywilly is still here for a bit
<reinhard> l8r all
<psu> jbailey - DCL has some time recording in it, but that's me just being a typical consultant
<chillywilly> lol
reinhard (~rm@M693P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Don't believe in miracles -- rely on them"
<psu> and making your problem fit my solution ;-)
<jbailey> psu: Cool, tx.
<chillywilly> hmmm, that quit messages rocks
<psu> You could knock up a fairly quick timesheet mini-app using Forms in two-tier
<chillywilly> we don't want forms to become impregnated
<psu> is this just for one PC, or networked?
<jbailey> networked.
<psu> you'd need to install GNUe forms client on each PC, and the forms definition files 
<psu> but if you can grok that, should be fine
<chillywilly> you can use a url for the form
<psu> and reports is now getting beyond proof of concept stage 
<psu> so you can even get data back out again ;-)
<chillywilly> you just need the client program
<chillywilly> read the source luke
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: psu finds it slightly worrying that he's dispensing GNUe advice to jbailey
<ICJ> is the KC online now?
<psu> when it was him who got me into doing the KCs in the 1st place
<psu> icj - http:
<psu> oops
<jbailey> =)
<ICJ> it is
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> cool
<ICJ> i know the URL
<jbailey> Cool.  I'll through this.  Thanks for the help.
<chillywilly> #
<chillywilly> # Open a file or URL resource,
<chillywilly> # properly handling drive letters.
<chillywilly> #
<chillywilly> def openResource(resource):
<chillywilly>   drive = os.path.splitdrive(resource)
<chillywilly>   if len(drive[0]):
<chillywilly>     return open(resource,'r')
<chillywilly>   else:
<chillywilly>     return urllib.urlopen(resource)
<chillywilly> this is used throughout
<chillywilly> so you can have http://my.webserver/form.gfd
<chillywilly> just an fyi ;)
Action: chillywilly is away: lunch w/family
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<ICJ> just sent a mail to info@gnue.org and gnue-dev@gnu.org
<ICJ> with my paper on hooks
<ICJ> huhu?
<psu> Hungary, Hungarian
<psu> but should be either HUhu or huHU
<psu> can never remember which ;-)
Action: drochaid wonders what psu is talking about
<psu> i assumed ICJ was setting his i18n locale...
<drochaid> hmm
<ICJ> hehe
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<psu> oh well, obviously drivben him off
<psu> either that, or he's gone off to count his kidneys
<psu> oh, he's back
<psu> ;-)
<drochaid> bleh
<psu> anyone 
<psu> taking wife out for dinner
<psu> bbl maybe
<drochaid> whos wife are you taking?
<psu> that's a v old line drochaid
<drochaid> ah, I see you are sidesteping the issue ;)
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<drochaid> bye then
<ICJ> anyone here?
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<ICJ> hi siesel
<siesel> hi  ICJ, you've been swimming today?
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> why are you asking?
<ICJ> i have been swimming another time on the way back home :-(
<ICJ> thunderstorm
<siesel> I just read the log, and so I know about your GEOR paper.
Action: siesel had to go swimming in the thunderstorm, to pick up his child. :-( :-(
<ICJ> well, I wrote something else first
<siesel> oh, there is a new mail on gnue-dev
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<ICJ> yes
Action: siesel doesn't like Gnue-dev digest, the news are no news more when he gets it.
<ICJ> hehe
<ICJ> why don't you subscribe to the non-digest version?
<siesel> but i don't know how to switch.
<ICJ> hu?
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<ICJ> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnue-dev
<ICJ> then the section  Gnue-dev Subscribers
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<ICJ> then on the extreme bottom
<ICJ> enter you email there
<siesel> oh, its too easy...
<ICJ> then under Your Gnue-dev Subscription Options
<ICJ> there the option  Set Digest Mode
<siesel> cool. Suddendly I like mailman.
<ICJ> if you select "No", then " Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" is irrelevant
<siesel> Select No ->  .. -> You may get one last digest. --> DOne
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<ICJ> and then you can filter based on the List-Id header
<ICJ> what are you studying?
<ICJ> Computer sciences?
<siesel> sinologie. and CS.
<ICJ> ah
<ICJ> nice combination
<siesel> I think so too.
<ICJ> I'll start CS this year
<ICJ> my programming skills are not that good
<siesel> Cool. Where do you want to study?
<ICJ> esp. in a language i did not know before
<ICJ> KA
<siesel> KA?
<ICJ> rlsruhe
<ICJ> "Charly's Rest"
<ICJ> *g*
<siesel> Karlsruhe is great. A cousine of mine has made his buisness engenier there.
<ICJ> a classmate of mine has just begun studying meteorology there
<ICJ> i also have relatives there
<ICJ> and the parents of another class-mate have moved to Remchingen last year
<ICJ> he will also move their after his service
<siesel> Remchingen?
<ICJ> 15 km away from Karlsruhe
<ICJ> between KA and Pforzheim
<ICJ> how long did it take you to do that GEMA framework?
<ICJ> has __call__ a special meaning?
<ICJ> when the object is used as a function, right?
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<siesel> not VERY long.  yes if you add a __call__ method to an object, you can handle it as an function.
<ICJ> i just remembered it when i was about to ask
<ICJ> why you named it thus
<siesel> But I've made notes about geas all the last 3 days, so it all fits in my scheme.
<ICJ> ic
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> i don't get everything yet
<ICJ> it's do little documentation ... :-(
<ICJ> do -> so
<siesel> can you ask, what you don't understand, so I clarify the case by a second mail ?
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> i'll ask any questions I have ...
<ICJ> but I just don't get a full overview about all the interfaces
<ICJ> well
<siesel> great. 
<ICJ> i just write someting for GEOR
<ICJ> without inheriting other classes
<ICJ> and asking when I want to use functionality which I know is in common but which I do not understand
<siesel> I think, many geas classes shouldn't inherit too much, because that would make them too slow.
<ICJ> #  all methods can be stored in and restored from the database, but they will
<ICJ> #  be more likely found in the 
<ICJ> #  GNU Enterprise Object Repository (GEOR)
<ICJ> #
<ICJ>   
<ICJ> class geasObjectRepository:
<ICJ>   
<ICJ>    def storeObject( OID ):
<ICJ>    def getObject( OID ):
<siesel> have you had a look on  /common/src/commdrivers/_helpers/ObjectLibrarian.py
<ICJ>        ....
<ICJ>    	return Object
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> i have different thoughts on that
<ICJ> no
<ICJ> why?
<siesel> Its a small class to store objects, to return an handle and a way to retrieve the objects again by this handle.
<siesel> but first to you thoughts.
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> I think I was thinking about a class repository
<ICJ> GNU Enterprise Object Repository (GEOR)
<siesel> Oh, I mixed something of my own  application server design thoughts into GEMA.
<ICJ> ***************************************
<ICJ>    GEOR will hold all the business object definitions: what fields the
<ICJ> object consists of, what methods exist, which triggers should be called
<ICJ> on what event, and so on.
<ICJ> from the whitepaper
<siesel> I didn't mean GEOR. I've meant  GEOC = GNU Enterprise Object Cache.
<ICJ> *g*
<siesel> On my papers buissness object definitions are also objects.
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> but not business objects ...
<ICJ> that would be quite a nice recursion ...
<siesel> yep. but  buissnes object, methods and buissness object definitions can all be geasObjects.
<ICJ> geasObjects?
<siesel> and if we have an easy way to store and retrieve geasObjects from a database, it makes everything easier
<ICJ> hm
<ICJ> what are geasObjects?
<siesel> Just think of a framework, which can handle persistent "geasObjects",  which can have versions, can be locked, can be elements of transactions...
<ICJ> args
<ICJ> it's getting more and more complex
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> I will first implement something whcih directly accesses the databases
<ICJ> using dbdrivers, of couse
<ICJ> and then you can implement your stuff
<ICJ> we need a usable implementation
<siesel> you say it.
<ICJ> otherwise you cannot work good on higher level stuff
<ICJ> I will first complete what classes I think I need for GEOR
<ICJ> then I will implement them
<heikoV> quit
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<ICJ> then the other modules can use them
<ICJ> then you can replace them with something more complex
<siesel> ok.
<ICJ> as long as we don't release
<ICJ> ,
<ICJ> we can still change arch
<ICJ> what do you think about the hook proposal?
<ICJ> is hook the right word for it?
<siesel> I haven't read it until now.
<ICJ> oh
<siesel> yes, hook is the right word, but you could call it trigger also.
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> I want to call the hook in triggers
<ICJ> or something like that
<ICJ> a hook works a bit like a trigger, doesn't it?
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<siesel> it looks like the TRIGGERS you have in databases, which are defined after tables are defined.
<ICJ> hm
[15:24] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<ICJ> so it's only a hook
<siesel> i think that the word "hook"  is a little bit more from the programming language side. ( obj B register function B.doAction to the hook X of obj. A)
<siesel> the database side would be more like TRIGGER B.doAction ON ACTION A.X
<ICJ> well
<siesel> Although triggers and hooks are great I prefer the EVENT modell.
<ICJ> args ...
<siesel> just read it in a book about object database design.
<ICJ> oops
<ICJ> you are very fast in adapting ideas
<ICJ> do you know INN?
<siesel> INN = the place where you can get a bear?
<siesel> bear/beer/s
<ICJ> hu?
<ICJ> the news server
<siesel> I never used it.
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> i have to rebuild my overview
<siesel> ? overview ?
<ICJ> but in the manpage they say only that you have to delete the overview buffers before if you use tradindexed
<ICJ> s/trad/buff
<ICJ> i use tradindexed
<ICJ> and they say nothing about it
<ICJ> so i just ran the command
<siesel> why do you need INN?
<ICJ> as a local news server
<ICJ> so how works the event model?
<ICJ> I once read a bit in the Java tutorial
<ICJ> there you had to register listeners for events
<ICJ> just like my hook proposal
<siesel> its like hooks and triggers, but has more features.
<ICJ> but I should use event instead of trigger
<ICJ> what features?
<ICJ> the event WM_PAINT tells a programm to re-paint its window
<ICJ> what's so fascinating about that?
<ICJ> and we don't want such a complex object system
<ICJ> I think
<ICJ> GEASv1 supported inheritance
<ICJ> they don't want it in v2
<siesel> one moment. I search an good example.
<ICJ> can one call hook a pattern?
<ICJ> The "hook pattern"?
<siesel> yep.
<ICJ> i once saw hook translated with Webepunkt
<ICJ> I know hooks from Gnus
<ICJ> they are used there a lot
<siesel> you have an object customer 
<ICJ> an customer of an object? ;-)
<ICJ> the customer pattern?
<ICJ> ;-)
<ICJ> SCNR
<ICJ> like the factory pattern? ;-)
<siesel> object "customer" which raises event "bought new computer"
<ICJ> the computer was not bought from us?
<siesel> now you have defined a trigger. "ON customer.boughtcomputer DO send message("Do you need new software too?")
<ICJ> yes
<siesel> this is the what trigger and hook can do also. but now the feature.
<siesel> you also can define a trigger like. ON customer.boughtcomputer + 20 day DO sendmessage("Do you still not need software for you computer?)
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> that has to be stored somewhere
<ICJ> Workflow Server?
<siesel> hmmm.
<ICJ> I wanted to use the hook model for dynamic updates
<siesel> Event- and Workflow Server
<ICJ> OK
<siesel> dynamic updates?
<ICJ> updates of calculated values
<ICJ> e.g.
<ICJ> other than those that are trivially related with the object triggering the event
<ICJ> aggregate values, mostly
<ICJ> n:m relationships are a native thing in the data type model
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<ICJ> forget the last sentence
<ICJ> you can do that with the hook model as well
<siesel> you think of something like employee.takeAdayOff triggering holiday statistic
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> good example
<ICJ> GNUe will just rock
<ICJ> better than SAP
<ICJ> *g*
<siesel> can you have a look at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/appserver/object_life_cicle.gif I don't want to make errors like that with GEOR again.
<ICJ> what are those states with dashed lines?
<siesel> they shouldn't be states. they are just a kind of interfaces.
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> looks ok
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<siesel> ok, now i add an text to it:
<siesel> The picture shows the state diagrams of two objects. The diagram on
<siesel> the left hand side shows the life cicle of a business object in general
<siesel> and the one on the right side shows the states of the local copy of this
<siesel> business object. A local copy will be created, when the object gets
<siesel> locked by an user who wants access this object during an transaction.
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> post it
<siesel> The circles with dashed lines in the middle of the diagram are
<siesel> symbolizing the step where an local copy gets created (the upper circle)
<siesel> or when the local copy writes its state changes back to the real
<siesel> buisness object ( the lower circle).
<ICJ> do you also have CVS access?
<ICJ> on your event example:
<ICJ> the hook causes another class (AdLetter) to create a new instance of itself
<ICJ> this new class then tells GEWS to call a method of itself 20 days later
<ICJ> GEWS= GNUe Event and Workflow Server
<siesel> why should it create a new instance of itself?
<siesel> oh, understood.
<siesel> I thought of something like this:  X raises event -> GEWS.event_is_occured.
<ICJ> hm?
<ICJ> -v
<siesel> GEWS knows about the 20 days rule and save the "boughtComputerEvent" in a list. 
<siesel> 20 days later during the daily "check for daily events" loop it will execute that action.
<siesel> I thought of a design like this, because the event modell I've read had event rules like "A in (B,C)" which would trigger only if event A occured after event B and previous to event C.
<siesel> but this is extra stuff which should be implemented in the overnext version.
<siesel> the cool thing about the event modell is, that you can take care of things like sessions, or transactions which should be closed (=timeouts), daily calculations, special tasks (if event "bank safe door opens" occures between 7pm and 7 am then do "call the police"...)
<siesel> ICJ: have you got the mail about the object life cicle?
<siesel> ICJ: I don't know if my server has some problems, or if mailman is too slow.
<ICJ> nothing here yet
<ICJ> to gnue-dev?
<siesel> yep. 
<siesel> i will try again in 20 minutes. l8r
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<ICJ> hi
<Yurik> ICJ: hi
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Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Action: derek is back (gone 10:49:45)
<ajmitch> wb derek
<derek> im running away, but thanks
Action: derek is away: wifey
--- Sun May 12 2002