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<heikoV> goodmorning
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<ICJ> good morning
<heikoV> my girlfriend says I should stop chatting and start coding
<ICJ> *g*
<dtm> heikoV: you can't argue with that, bro.
<heikoV> the problem is that I don't know where to start
<heikoV> there is so much to do
<heikoV> and so little I know
<heikoV> e.g. I have to learn python and wx
<ICJ> wx?
<ICJ> ah
<ICJ> you code in the forms module
<heikoV> I feel that the client and designer aren't finished yet
<heikoV> I should at least be able to fix small bugs or incompatibilities
<heikoV> so that I don't have to stop if the program refuses to continue
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<ICJ> hm
<ICJ> do you have CVS access?
Nick change: ICJ -> ICJ-away
<heikoV> I can use cvs checkout if that's what you mean
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<ICJ-away> no checkin
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<ICJ> hi
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<ICJ> hi boole
<ICJ> true-or-false-p
<ICJ> ?
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<boole> hi
<boole> true
<ICJ> *g*
<ICJ> T
<ICJ> would be the correct answer
<boole> :)
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<sledge_> hi
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<ICJ> hi sledge
<ICJ> wie geht's?
<sledge_> i'm well, thanks
<sledge_> just reading some docs :)
<ajmitch> hey sledge_
<sledge_> hey :)
<sledge_> quite silent here. seems to be night everywhere
<drochaid> tis 1307 here
<drochaid> time, not year :)
<ajmitch> Mon May 13 00:08:11 NZST 2002
<sledge_> NZST :)
<ajmitch> yes
<sledge_> this is MEST, so i'm nearly on the other side of the planet. try to imagine that. it's funny.
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<siesel> morning.
<drochaid> afternoon
<ICJ> afternoon
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<Phython> Hey
<sledge_> hi
<ajmitch> hey Phython
<Phython> I need to suck some information out of good python programmers ;)
<ajmitch> uh oh
Action: ajmitch ducks out of the way
<Phython> I'm looking for an equivalent to perls quotewords function
<ajmitch> which does what? ;)
<sledge_> ajmitch: you stole my question!
<ajmitch> sledge_: i'll let you have it back
<Phython> it takes a string and parses it based off a break token, like a space
<ajmitch> good sir, could you please explain to us dullards what this 'quotewords' function achieves in perl?
<ajmitch> ah
<ajmitch> string.split
<Phython> but also allows for a quote character
<ajmitch> hmm
<Phython> so "Hi me" you suck
<Phython> is parsed into 4 words
<Phython> 'so', 'Hi me', 'you', 'suck'
<ajmitch> sledge_: ?
<Phython> instead of: 'so', '"Hi', 'me"', 'you', 'suck'
<sledge_> hm
<sledge_> i honestly don't know; perl is optimized towards text processing, so it might be that there actually is no equivalent in python
<Phython> humm, that would suck
<ajmitch> yep
<sledge_> perhaps it's just your input that sucks :)
<Phython> ok, will string.split () split 'hi\ me' into two words?
<sledge_> >>> split('hi\ me')
<sledge_> ['hi\\', 'me']
<sledge_> :-(
<Phython> I found a solution here:
<Phython> http://object-craft.com.au/projects/csv/
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<sledge_> hiho jbailey
<jbailey> Hello sledge_
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<sledge_> everything alright?
Nick change: foofoofoo -> jbailey
<sledge_> hey jbailey, i saw that you're on #hurd. does it make sense to take a closer look at hurd at the moment (as a non-system developer) or just wait?
<jbailey> sledge_: Depends what you want out of it.
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<jbailey> There's alot of cool things we can do, and alot of things we suck at.
<ajmitch> performance is quite suck at the moment
<sledge_> look whether it's a platform that can be used to deploy apps in the next months or years
Action: derek is away: church
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<sledge_> gotta go now too, my soon-to-be-gf [hehe] just called
<sledge_> bye
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> 'soon-to-be-gf' sounds interesting
<sledge_> she doesn't know
<ajmitch> yes, but is she interested?
<sledge_> well, actually she knows, but she doesn't know that.
<ajmitch> lol
<sledge_> she's not definitively interested, it somehow depends on me. scary :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<sledge_> on a side note, would you rather study plain biology or rather bioinformatics? i don't know what to study and i have only 6 weeks to decide.
<sledge_> s/rather//
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<ajmitch> drochaid!!!!
<drochaid> ajmitch!!!!
<ajmitch> bioinformatics, sledge_
<sledge_> dragonheart!
<drochaid> cheese burger!!!
<Phython> yeah, python 2.1 is built on the hurd now ;)
<sledge_> noodle soup!
<ajmitch> excellent, Phython :)
<sledge_> okay, it's 2:0 for bioinformatics now. thx :)
Action: ajmitch has a friend doing an MSc in bioinformatics stuff
<sledge_> from what i've heard it's pretty interesting
Action: ajmitch goes zzzzzzzz now
<sledge_> well then, good night :)
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<ICJ> Hi!
<drochaid> bioinformatics ???
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<ICJ> hm?
<ICJ> who is studying that?
<ICJ> bio- and neuroinformatics?
<ICJ> Medical University Lübeck?
<nickr> I've never heard of neuroinformatics, I tohught it was all under bioinformatics
<ICJ> dunno
<ICJ> who is studying that?
<drochaid> what IS bioinformatics?
<ICJ> computer sciences with special focus on applications in the bio sciences, I suppose
<drochaid> that was my guess as well, but I never trust my guesses ;)
<ICJ> I have a flyer of MUL here
<ICJ> you don't understand German, I suppose
<ICJ> ?
<ICJ> (german-p drochaid)
<ICJ> (skill-p (lang de) drochaid)
<drochaid> good guess, very vert limited german language skills :-(
<drochaid> s/vert/very
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<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> they say
<ICJ> Bioinformatics/Biomathematics:
<ICJ> This supplementary subject pays tribute to the increasing importance of informatics and mathematics in biological-medical  disciplines
<ICJ> It's tasks include process steering in biotechnology, structure analysis of gene and proteine sequences, die examination of population models and the simulation of ecosystems
<ICJ> that's it
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<drochaid> ta ICJ
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<reinhard> argh
Action: reinhard bangs head on wall
[13:10] Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<reinhard> missed neilt again :((
<drochaid> but only by 10 mins :)
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<ICJ> hm
[13:28] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<drochaid> hey psu
<drochaid> and just to check ... 300w?
<ICJ> reinhard?
<psu> that's psu as in penn state uni, you know
<psu> ...NOT
<drochaid> LOL
<psu> bb in 5 - switching PCs
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<reinhard> ICJ: here
<ICJ> wanna see my GClassDefs.py?
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<reinhard> ICJ: sure
<reinhard> you might have to be patient with the answer although :(
<reinhard> aehm s/answer/comment/
<reinhard> ICJ: thanks
<ICJ> hm?
<reinhard> got your mail
<reinhard> i don't want to comment before having _really_ read through it and thought about it
<reinhard> i hope this will be tomorrow evening
<reinhard> also your other mail about "hook system"
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> well, the .py is far from complete
<reinhard> you and sledge "kick butt" as derek would say
<reinhard> which means that you really get things moving forward
<ICJ> are we?
<ICJ> wow
<reinhard> btw it's sufficient to write to gnue-dev@gnu.org
<ICJ> Am I a contributor?
<ICJ> ok
<reinhard> info@gnue.org is only a few people that are all subscribed to gnue-dev, too
<reinhard> ICJ: you are
<ICJ> ok
<ICJ> then please list me!
<reinhard> :)
<ICJ> I can put it in my CV ;-)
<reinhard> actually i considered to start a "THANKS" file
<reinhard> which is for people that didn't write massive portions of the code
<ICJ> btw: FSF owes me $1
<reinhard> but rather contributed some patches and/or ideas
<reinhard> and list you there
<reinhard> but now you are rapidly moving from THANKS towards AUTHORS :)
<reinhard> ICJ: you got your copy of the assignment back already=
<reinhard> )
<reinhard> argh
<reinhard> ?
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> I did
<reinhard> so you probably got some gnu stickers worth $1 :)
<ICJ> aha
<ICJ> I did not ask for them ;-)
<ICJ> why didn't they sent a check?
<reinhard> lol
<ICJ> I would have pinned it on the wall
<ICJ> because it would be too expensive to cash it
<ICJ> "Falscherfüllung" would be the right word in German
<reinhard> IANAL :)
<reinhard> at least it seems you're not fitting your domain name ;)
<ICJ> hmpfl
<ICJ> when you list me in any file, please use jm@enode.de
<ICJ> i would put the stickers under "other good and valuable consideration" ;-)
<reinhard> exactly :)
<ICJ> and the contract says "$1 _and_"
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> again IANAL
<ICJ> you need not know much law to understand US contracts
<ICJ> they define each and every term again ther
<ICJ> e
<ICJ> btw:
<ICJ> The new German copyright law
<ICJ> makes it impossible for an author
<ICJ> to waive his rights to appropriate reimbursement
<ICJ> I read somewhere
<ICJ> dsr.* probably
<reinhard> ICJ that is true
<reinhard> however the FSF Europe is working on that issue
<reinhard> it's not clear whether US law or German law is valid here
<ICJ> just wanted to ask what FSF's reaction is
<ICJ> is that only in DE?
<ICJ> Or in whole EU?
<reinhard> i think it's in many european countries
<reinhard> actually there is no "copyright" here
<reinhard> but rather an "author's right"
<reinhard> which you can not "give away" neither for free nor for money
<reinhard> but you can "share" the rights with someone (i.e. FSF gets the rights and you keep the rights, too)
<reinhard> which is actually what the assignment does
<ICJ> yes
<ICJ> do you know the writing on LPs years ago?
<ICJ> "Alle Urheber- und Leistungsschutzrechte vorbehalten"
<reinhard> not sure
<reinhard> ah
<ICJ> there are author's rights and
<ICJ> ähm
<ICJ> whatever
<ICJ> the former cannot be given away
<ICJ> the latter can
<reinhard> ah yes
<ICJ> but only against compensation
<ICJ> (according to the new law)
<ICJ> It's a § that shall protect artists
<ICJ> not like selling the rights of a book now
<reinhard> iirc there was an exception for software in this compensation clause
<ICJ> and later the company makes a movie
<ICJ> and does not pay the author
<ICJ> oh, interesting
<reinhard> as possibly free software would have become illegal by this clause otherwise
<reinhard> IIRC the FSF Europe was very active on this topic
<reinhard> btw answered another two of your mails
<reinhard> that leaves only 2 mails from you and 2 from siesel for monday
<reinhard> now gotta spend some time with my wife :)
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<psu> lo
<ICJ> hallo
<psu> hi ICJ 
<psu> quiet in here, isn't it?
<psu> btw
<psu> any KC followers
<psu> will have probably noticed that the 
<psu> cross-referencing in the KCs
<psu> and the topic index
<ICJ> btw
<psu> are working again
<ICJ> why aren't the authors/names indexed?
<psu> so I would guess the person index
<psu> will be next to be fixed
<psu> It's been broken for a couple of weeks now
<psu> since the move away from perl to xslt to parse the scripts
<ICJ> ah ic
<ICJ> cool
<ICJ> I suggested that ages ago ;-)
<ICJ> when the KC Debian still existed
<psu> well, it was working, but then broke
<psu> Used to look like "Jens Muller [*] (ICJ) said..."
<psu> with the [*] as a hyprlink
<ICJ> no, I suggested XSLT
<psu> oh
<psu> I think that was always the intention
<ICJ> well
<ICJ> I did a translation then
<ICJ> and I asked where to add the author email
<psu> as the source has been semi-valid XML for at least as long as I've been doing it
<ICJ> or something like that
<ICJ> and Zack just changed the definition
<ICJ> beacuse there was no DTD
<psu> ok
<ICJ> 23407
<ICJ> oops
<ICJ> was just cleaning my keyboard
<ICJ> BYE
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<psu> ..and he was gone
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 27:41:22)
<drochaid> hey chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi
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<chillywilly> hi jan
<siesel> hi chilly.
<siesel> whats up?
Action: siesel is trying blackend for irc today
<chillywilly> working on ODMG binding for a bit before I go off and do some more of that mother's day thing ;)
<siesel> chilly: what do you think is better: to set attributs of an geasInstance by calling o.get(attribute) and o.set(attribute,x) or by directly calling o.attribute=x ...
<siesel> shit. I forgot to call my mother today ... 
<chillywilly> the methods provide encapsulation
<chillywilly> uh oh
<siesel> encapsulation is another thing. the difference would be like a)  set_barfoo("nothing)  b)   set("barfoo","nothing")
<chillywilly> is it Python style to name exceptions WhateverError?
<chillywilly> where, "Whatever" is substituted appropriately of course
<chillywilly> ;)
<siesel> allmost. The Base class is called "exception" but the rest is call "whatever"Error.
<chillywilly> yea, I know
<siesel> Oh there are also 5  XXXXWarnings
<chillywilly> if I called something WhateverException would I be breakin some sort of unwritten Python rule?
<siesel> Yes, the python god would send a snake to bite you and poison you deadly ;)
<chillywilly> eeeek
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I'll define my littel exception heirarchy usinf "Foo"Error then ;)
<chillywilly> er little, using
<chillywilly> my typing sucks today
<chillywilly> dude, I love this font though
<chillywilly> "neep"
<chillywilly> it rocks
Action: siesel is switching console fonts...
<siesel> "neep" looks great to me....
<siesel> its just a little bit too small. 12pt. maximum on 1280x1024 is a little bit too small...
<siesel> :(
<chillywilly> I like small fonts
<chillywilly> I ma fixed at 1024x768
<chillywilly> s/ma/am
<chillywilly> (laptop)
<siesel> I've got my this and last and the year before birthday and christmas present yesterday: a 17" flat screen so I'm fixed at 1280x1024.
<chillywilly> oooh, flat screen aren't we spoiled ;)
<siesel> btw. do you think that geasV2 should be able to store and retrieve JUST business objects?
<chillywilly> it should store any python object decribed, imho
<chillywilly> in ODL or whatever
<siesel> I think so too.
<chillywilly> described even
<chillywilly> this is what I mean when I talk about a "generic" app server
<chillywilly> what make an 'object' different than a 'business object' anyway?
<siesel> I'm not shure, but for me object can be anything, while business objects are objects to store and calculates data directly needed by the application.
<chillywilly> but either way you have to define them right?
<chillywilly> in OO design there's no real difference between a "business" object and an object they are one in the same, imho
<siesel> i.e. business object  !=  object holding (object description), object holding namespace, trigger object, ... 
<chillywilly> maybe a business objects fit into the domain of an OO designed business system, but that's about all I can say
<chillywilly> well yea we need as langauge to describe the schema of our objects (GCD, ODL, etc.)...those do not constitute the object itself...in fact we can get picky and say that an object is an "instance" of a python class (which is generated from the decruption)
<chillywilly> description even
<siesel> I just thought to make as much as possible of the building blocks of the application server objects in the application server. 
<chillywilly> ok
<siesel> I think there is no way to create a python class in a programm (without dirty tricks), so I though of an geasMetaObject which holds the class definition and can build instances.
<chillywilly> yes, there's going to be a whole meta object api for adding types on the fly the way I see it
<chillywilly> but one could also just parse gcds
<chillywilly> or go from the current repository and generate gcds from what the system currently contains
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~baumannd/geas-schema-compiler.png
<siesel> yep. and I've thought about namespaces, so you create an metaobject with  OID = 12 and register it as "MyObject"->12. one month later you want to change it. you just create a new metaobject with the changes (now OID=2012) and overwrite the registration "MyObject" -> 2012. By this way old applications can still access the old code (bound to OID 12 directly) and new application access the new code.
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> inetrestinf
<chillywilly> well I am going to run
<chillywilly> take care
<siesel> ok. CU later
<chillywilly> and don't to call your mom ;)
<chillywilly> forget
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<ajmitch> hi
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--- Mon May 13 2002