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<ajmitch> hi psu
<chillywilly> Peter
<psu> tis I
<chillywilly> night ppl
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<psu> well, after I mentioned putting KC in CVS a few days back
<psu> it seems like Zack's had the same idea
<psu> may take some time to set up, tho'
<ajmitch> ok, cool
<psu> The real benefit of CVS from my point of view
<psu> is that when I have to re-publish an issue
<psu> for name spellings or topic mis-spellings etc
<psu> I don't have to trouble Zack any more
<ajmitch> cool
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<ajmitch> madainn mhath, drochaid
<drochaid> madainn mhath
<drochaid> tha i fliuch an-diugh :(
<ajmitch> isn't that normal? :)
<drochaid> we've had the dryest autumn/winter for a long time
<ajmitch> ok
<drochaid> at least, that's what the met office claim
<drochaid> personally I've had my gortex kit out quite a bit
<dtm> drochaid: what's gortex?
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> drochaid: can you tell he comes from a dry area?
<dtm> is that some portable personal submersible bubble or something :)
<ajmitch> dtm: nah, just heavy waterproof material
<drochaid> ajmitch: it would appear so :-)
<drochaid> I think I mispelt it tho .. is it gore-tex ?
Action: drochaid checks
<ajmitch> nah, you had it right 1st time i think
<drochaid> nope, tis GORE-TEX by WL Gore and associates
<dtm> ok gentlemen, it's my bedtime.   ttyl   
<ajmitch> bight
<ajmitch> night
<ajmitch> silly keyboard
<drochaid> mar sin leat dtm
<dtm> drochaid: yeah that too!
<dtm> afk
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<ICJ> Hi!
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<dneighbo> jcater you found your way home?
<jamest> dude
<jamest> lack of KK probably drove him in that direction
<jamest> much like animals returning to their annual breeding grounds
<jamest> it's instinct
<dneighbo> rofl
Action: dneighbo envisions frankenstein like monster (ie. zombie walk)
<dneighbo> muttering
<jcater> of course, james' dad comes over after we buy the grocery store variety
<dneighbo> 'must have donut'
<jcater> and say, "james, why didn't you buy him KK over at xxxxxx"
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> dude
<dneighbo> rofl
<jamest> i swear I have no idea where he was saying KK could be purchased
<jamest> as I'm dying to try one myself
Action: jamest wants to grow up to be just like jcater
<jcater> you mean, big?
<dneighbo> eating donuts helps
<jcater> well, stop with the taekwondo, for starters
<dneighbo> grow big that is
<jamest> btw - his family is quite charming
<jamest>   /msg derek not sure how they can be so normal and jason be so....well you know
<jamest> er, whoops, that was a typo
<jamest> :)
<dneighbo> rofl
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<Arturas> Hello
<ra3vat> hi
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<drochaid> good evening dneighbo
<dneighbo> hello
<Arturas> good morning
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<dneighbo> hi Arturas 
<dneighbo> anyone here have a DAT tape player?
<drochaid> as in audio dat??
<dneighbo> btw: jamest you see tigert's mail back to you
<dneighbo> drochaid yes as in audio dat
<drochaid> dneighbo: my friend does
<drochaid> he recorded his last three cds with it
<dneighbo> is there any way if i sent you a DAT tape you could convert to digital for me
<dneighbo> either cd's or just raw .wav i could download?
<dneighbo> you can keep the DAT when you are done
<drochaid> dneighbo: I'll need to check with my friend that he's willing to do so, but if he is, then sure
<drochaid> that's exactly what he uses it for
<dneighbo> it would be great
<dneighbo> its California Guitar Trio concernt
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> King Crimson concert
<dneighbo> im sure there might be other tradables could include if he liked
<drochaid> I'm hopefully speaking to him in a few hours ... *if* I remember, I'll ask then ;-)
<dneighbo> would be great
<dneighbo> have a coworker that is big into live concert tape trading (all legal)
<dneighbo> but he doesnt have a DAT player and has this DAT tape he really wants on CD
<dneighbo> he has some hogwart (old genesis)
<dneighbo> U2 
<dneighbo> and other stuff that is live concert stuff on CD im sure he would be willing to include in order to help encourage the effort :)
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> my friend would only be interested if it was Jazz ;)
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<drochaid> wheeeeeeeee
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<Arturas> bye
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<dneighbo> jamest/jcater either of you here?
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<jamest> sorta
<jamest> my machines are being fiesty so I'm having to hand out the smackdowns to them 
<jcater> sorta
<jcater> my users are being fiesty so I'm having to hand out the smackdowns to them 
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> you guys plan on coming to LWE SF?
<dneighbo> in august
Action: dneighbo is trying to start planning early
<dneighbo> i submitted paperwork earlier this month and plan on following up
<dneighbo> but hoping to have some help
<jcater> I'd like to
<jcater> but wouldn't count on it
<jamest> i'd like to too
<jamest> but wouldn't count on it
<jamest> we've got 2 trips already planned for the summer
<dneighbo> sigh
<jcater> I'm buying a house
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> what about france
<dneighbo> either of you doing that
Action: dneighbo hopes i can find locals to help out
<dneighbo> dtm......
<jamest> that's a big no go for me :(
<dneighbo> nickr will you be making a trip down from bend?
<dneighbo> jcater?
<jamest> nix'd by the signif other
<jamest> reason: we've got 2 trips already planned
<jamest> that's why I'm not holding breath on SF
<jcater> don't think wife's gonna go for france
<jcater> so seriously doubt it
<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> i'm starting to see a pattern here :)
<jcater> really?
<jcater> can you describe it using regular expressions?
<jamest> um
<jamest> nope
<jcater> :)
<jamest> i think it involves pants
<jamest> and who wears them in the household
<jcater> how true
<jamest> and i don't think it's us
<jcater> well, in my case, it's wife not wanting me to go
<jcater> but I agree, TJ would be against it too
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> he wears pants too
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> reinhard you around?
<reinhard> yes
<dneighbo> interested in representing us in bordeaux
<dneighbo> i have a sponsor that could cover your expenses to get tehre
<reinhard> depends on what that means
<dneighbo> i believe it means speaking about gnue :)
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> i'm not the type to speak in front of a crowd
<reinhard> crowd means > 10 people
<dneighbo> i dont think their crowds are all that big
<reinhard> :)
<dneighbo> but possibly bigger than 10
<dneighbo> i will get with you on it, if its something you would consider and get you details
<reinhard> i'm not quite sure
<reinhard> well to be honest i'm not prepared for this question...
<reinhard> AFAIK bordeaux is 5 days
<reinhard> would i be supposed to be there all 5 days?
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<gontran> lo all
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<jamest> hey gontran
<jamest> saw some more commits :)
<psu> hi
<gontran> heya jamest :)  
<gontran> yeah,  i'm looking into the UIdriver right now -- 
<gontran> you've already done quite a bit of the work :)
<jamest> you wish :)
<gontran> psu thanx for yet another KC
<gontran> heh
<gontran> any bones?
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I made the head quote 2 weeks in a row
Action: jcater puffs out his chest
Action: drochaid sticks a small dagger in jcaters chest and watches him deflate
<psu> heh
<psu> this week's provisional headquote is ICJ
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<psu> unless anyone else says anything wittier in next 2 dyas
<psu> ;-)
<dneighbo> hmm i dont know if that was a challenge or not
Action: dneighbo stopped playing when you all removed the stats
Action: dneighbo was looking forward to catching Alan Cox and Torvalds
<psu> cross refs and topics are back
<psu> so stats won't be far behind ;-)
Action: dneighbo was just kidding
<jcater> jamest: this is for you
<psu> Linus doesn't actually get quoted in Kernel Traffic that much
<ICJ> psu: ?
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/backup.png
<ICJ> another KC? cool!
<psu> not yet -just one a week
<psu> ;-)
<psu> y'all have to wait until Saturday
<psu> I just do as much as I can in advance
<ajmitch> hi ppl
<drochaid> morning ajmitch
<ICJ> what was that about Bordeaux?
<drochaid> they make good wine
<jcater> so does Tennessee
<jcater> we call it, "Jack Daniels"
<jcater> mmmm mmmm
<ICJ> concerning the KC
<dneighbo> jcater you guys get that mikes hard iced tea commerical there
<ICJ> my name is Jens Müller
<dneighbo> with the guy in the cube with that minitature head sticking out his neck
<ICJ> not Jens Muller
<dneighbo> um sorry you are Meuller here
<dneighbo> as we are l'americans
<ICJ> I hope GNUe won't have such a bad i18n
<ICJ> *g*
<dneighbo> so we butcher your umlats as we please
<ICJ> ignorants!
<ICJ> dilletants!
<psu> actually, now we are "proper" XML 
<dneighbo> we prefere imbeciles if you must throw insults :)
<psu> i probably can do umlauts
<ICJ> what means that?
<dneighbo> &uuml
<dneighbo> &uuml;
<ICJ> that is not XML
<psu> as long as I can work out the entity reference
<dneighbo> is all you need to do umlats psu
<dneighbo> iirc
<ICJ> these are defined in a file included in the HTML DTD
<jamest> rofl
<jcater> psu: refer to me as jcater&copy;
<ICJ> just include that file in the KC DTD as well
<dneighbo> roflmao
<ICJ> uuml is an entity
<psu> jcater:  should that not be jcater&copyleft; ?
<ICJ> entities have to be defined somewhere
<ICJ> and that is
<ICJ> if you define that entity
<ICJ> otherwise it would be invalid XML
<psu> I'm sure Zack can add it to the DTD w/o too much trouble
<jcater> psu: no, I copyright myself
<jcater> no one can change me
<jcater> even if they give the chnages back to me
<psu> what about "derived works"?
<jcater> s/chnages/changes
<reinhard> psu: lol
<jcater> I reserve ownership for 18 years
<jcater> at which point it goes into the PD
<dneighbo> rofl
<reinhard> dneighbo: can you prepare a little more details about bordeaux
<dneighbo> um your going
<reinhard> it would be ok for me to be there 1 or 2 days
<dneighbo> enough details?
<reinhard> to sit at some booth
<reinhard> or something close to that
<psu> ICJ: i will email Zack & see if we can get you properly umlauted
<dneighbo> i am hoping you get to speak
<dneighbo> more than sit at a booth
<reinhard> however i don't think i will be able to be there for 5 days
<reinhard> um
<dneighbo> i dont think you would have to be there 5 days
<reinhard> sit at booth and talk to people
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> i don't think i can speak to a crowd
<reinhard> especially in a language that isn't my native one
<reinhard> and what is IMHO the biggest problem
<dneighbo> ?
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<reinhard> i'm not sure if i have the time to _prepare_ all the stuff
<dneighbo> um you dont feel ok speakign english?
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<ajmitch> wb Isomer
<reinhard> you ever heard an austrian speaking english?
<dneighbo> reinhard : by sepakign im thinking more 'question / answer' type thing
<reinhard> think of schwarzenegger :)
<dneighbo> reinhard : yeah they are famous
<dneighbo> look at arnold :)
<dneighbo> everyone loves arnold
<ajmitch> reinhard: get onto that weightlifting :)
Action: dneighbo can see reinhard's presentation noww
<dneighbo> first you take da xml and you sqaush it
<dneighbo> hasta la vista prop software
<reinhard> rofl
<dneighbo> then you choke your users 
<dneighbo> and force them to use GNUe
<dneighbo> sometimes SAP will win but
<dneighbo> GNUe will be back!
Action: dneighbo wonders if you can tear the skinf off your arm to show your robotics, that would be a cool demo :)
<psu> we'd need jcater for that ;-)
<reinhard> we will have to talk more closely about it
<reinhard> i don
Action: dneighbo would like to do a presentation 'The Rock' Style
<reinhard> i don't want to make promises i can't hold
<ajmitch> uh ho
<ICJ> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/dtd_module_defs.html#a_xhtml_character_entities
<reinhard> however i must go to bed now
<reinhard> night all
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<dneighbo> first i'm gonna take your prop software and im gonna roll it up turn it sideways
<gontran> lol
<dneighbo> and shove it up your roody pooh candy ass
<psu> ok, v old joke alert
<psu> Stephen Spielburg decides to make a movie about composers
<dneighbo> you smell what the GNU is cookin;?
<psu> asks hollywood stars to pick parts
<psu> JC van Damme wants to play Mozart
<psu> Sly Stallone picks Beethoven
<psu> and Arnie says "I'll be Bach..."
<gontran> derek: lmao 'Can you smell what the GNU is cookin!?'
<dneighbo> gontran i would make the speech but i would dress like mankind (i.e. no tight undies for me)
<dneighbo> psu: i like that one
<gontran> everone at the show wears tights and cape
<gontran> s/everone/everyone/
<psu> "you'll believe a penguin can fly..."
<drochaid> you mean they can't? :o
<psu> not unless you fire them very, very hard
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> or kick them
<jcater> very very hard
Action: psu hugs his Tux
<ajmitch> good thing chillywilly isn't here :)
<jcater> why?
<jcater> does he believe they can fly?
<psu> only if you add flying methods to them
<psu> and invoke an airborne instance
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: psu finds it worrying he can do OO jokes when he doesn't even understand OO
<drochaid> lol
<psu> wife has just pointed out 
<psu> that you can just do them proper wings out of wax
<psu> as it is cold enuf where they live
<psu> that they don't have to worry about 
<psu> the Icarus effect ;-)
<gontran> i thought that's what we were doing ;)
<drochaid> just give them a can of red bull :)
<ICJ> ohh
<ICJ> in the school where I do my service
<ICJ> they gave a kid red bull
<ICJ> (mentally handicapped school)
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<jamest> l8r
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<ajmitch> siesel!
<siesel> Hi !.:)
<siesel> hi ajmitch
<ICJ> hi siesel
<siesel> hi ICJ. 
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<siesel> your still working on GEOR?
<ICJ> well, not today
<ICJ> i was working from 6:30 to 14:30, then I went to the swimming pool
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<ICJ> then to my grandma
<ICJ> and was at home at 20:45
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<siesel> You are lucky. I had to be at FRA Airport at 6:30 pick someone up and had to wait for the plane 4 hours, because it was send to Stuttgard first because of bad weather.... :(
<chillywilly> hey anyone know any imap commands?
<ICJ> no
<ICJ> type HELP on the telnet prompt
<nickr> dneighbo: trip to were?
<chillywilly> ICJ: tried that already
<chillywilly> it's a friggin M$ exchange server if that helps ;P
<chillywilly> I am wondering why I am not getting any damn email
<chillywilly> stupid school uses exchaneg servers
<chillywilly> exchange even
<ICJ> because it's a friggin M$ exchange server, and thatb doesn't help *g*
<chillywilly> well I know that I wish they were still using Digital UNIX for email
<ajmitch> what you got against exchange??
<chillywilly> it sucks ass
<ajmitch> you ever had the joy of configuring it?
<chillywilly> hey what's the debian package name for the RFCs?
<chillywilly> ajmitch: nope
<chillywilly> ajmitch: all I know is that I have lost email service too many times to count
<ajmitch> then you'd *know* it sucks ass
<chillywilly> ajmitch: so from a user's point of view it blows
<siesel> doc-rfc-std doc-rfc doc-rfc-misc ...
<chillywilly> thanks
<ajmitch> from am admin's point of view it's an utter piece of dog vomit
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<chillywilly> ajmitch: heh
<chillywilly> ajmitch: M$ writes great server software don't they? ;)
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<ajmitch> *cough*
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<_Monirc_> hi all
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<siesel> hi Monirc.
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<btami> hello
<chillywilly> ello
<siesel> monirc=btami?
<btami> after a full w2k reinstall :)
<btami> yes
<chillywilly> yuck
<btami> jcater
<btami> is here jcater 
<btami> grrrrrr, i can't type question mark 
<chillywilly> well this makes no sense as if I connect to the server via POP I have some 201 messages
<chillywilly> weird
<chillywilly> I think fetchmail must be hosed
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<btami> anyway, this monirc not my favorit prog
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<sledge_> hi
<sledge_> i got her phone number, btw
<chillywilly> wow, spamassassin is making my machine swap a lot ;_
<chillywilly> ;)
<sledge_> assassination is not easy, it takes processing time :)
<chillywilly> I think somehow fetchmail was zombied
<chillywilly> by nautilus
<ajmitch> get more ram
<chillywilly> don't know how nautilus would be starting up fetchmail, unless it has something to do with the panel
<chillywilly> ajmitch: can't my laptop won't hold anymore
<sledge_> fetchmail - nautilus? where's the connection?
<chillywilly> dunno, but it was claiming it couldn't be started with a running fetchmail and I looked at the PID and it was a defunct nautilus process
<sledge_> schtrange, indeed
<chillywilly> I did an oaf-slay and I could run fetchmail again
<chillywilly> maybe it was a stale PID
<chillywilly> I dunno
<sledge_> i'm bad
<sledge_> i have only contributed 2 patches in a mere 3 or 4 weeks :(
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<chillywilly> you do what you can
<sledge_> but i'd like to do more. perhaps i can buy some time from people that have enough of it
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> man you and Jens have been pretty active as far as defining things though...lots of cool proposals
Action: siesel is feeling sad: nobody looks at my proposals... *sniff*
<sledge_> i think that some ideas in advance always help
<sledge_> siesel: we hear you
<sledge_> :)
<siesel> :)
<sledge_> so, what's your proposal on GNUe coffee maker? implement it as a package? connect it with HR, so that there is always coffee for the employed programmers? :)
<chillywilly> I am going to read it tonight
<chillywilly> I am waiting on someone tyo come over ortherwise I would read it right now
<siesel> there is still an issue with the GNUe RPC coffee protocoll.. ;)
Action: chillywilly is reading the relevant GEAS threads on gnue-dev again
<sledge_> seriously, the GEAS API proposal (=doc?) is clean and simple. i can imagine to implement even the stupidest apps with geas2.
<chillywilly> well I am partial to the API's described in the standard, but that's just me
<siesel> Although I like the GEAS API proposal, because its quite direct and simple, its just missing some important features...
<sledge_> which ones?
<siesel> especially the ones discribed in odmg.txt ;)
<sledge_> argh
<chillywilly> siesel: :)
<sledge_> okay, i'm reading that right now
<chillywilly> hmmm, I didn't know that supporting inheritance was up for debate
<sledge_> huh
<chillywilly> it is usually an important feature of an OO system
<chillywilly> on the mailing list reinhard said he didn't knwo if they would support it
<sledge_> is it really important from the beginning?
<chillywilly> well it is relatively easy with python
<sledge_> i think it's nice from the CS standpoint and it may simplify things, but it adds a bit of complexity.
<chillywilly> you just process rthe ODL file and if there's inheritance of a type you just generate the stub with the inheritance line, imhp
<chillywilly> class Foo (Bar):
<chillywilly> s/imhp/imho
<sledge_> do i get the idea right that gcd's are converted to python objects; and geas2 is "just" a handler for them?
<sledge_> erm
<sledge_> i mean
<sledge_> geas2 "just" handles them
<chillywilly> the way I see it ODL defines the objects and we write a parser/compiler to generate stubs for the Python class and the Meta Object classes in the object repository
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~baumannd/geas-schema-compiler.png
<chillywilly> for thr type(s) defined....or one could use the meta object api to ass tyoes and then generate gcd(s) from the meta objects in the repository
<chillywilly> s/ass/add...oops
<chillywilly> :o
<siesel> to add a third version: the way i see it you call geas2 to parse a ODL file (or a gcd) and it creates persistent objects on the fly.
<ajmitch> yes
<chillywilly> yea, that's what I mean
<chillywilly> but you should be able to go either way
<sledge_> hey, you guys make me understand geas2 well :)
<ajmitch> sad
<ajmitch> truly sad :)
<sledge_> what are these meta objects?
<ajmitch> it was never meant to be understood! ;)
<chillywilly> data (Objects) about objects (i.e., introspection)
<sledge_> ah
<chillywilly> there's a whole metaobject api in the standard
<sledge_> ajmitch: i'm so sorry, i didn't want that. 
<siesel> you can use metaobjects to change class definitions, add functions ...and a way to 
<sledge_> chillywilly: that's pretty clear, i just didn't know what this term means
<siesel>  /and a way too//
<chillywilly> siesel: thanks, that's a better explanation ;)
<sledge_> so meta objects can change objects on the fly
<chillywilly> modules, classes, scope, definfingscope, etc. are all meta objects that help describe the class definitions
<siesel> sledge: it depends on the implementation.
<chillywilly> sledge_: every object would have a definition, a python class for that object, and correspondgin meta objects for the definition
<chillywilly> so you could change them on the fly and add objects on the fly
<sledge_> ah
<chillywilly> you could process a gcd, use the meta object api, etc. to add an object and you could go either way you please
<siesel> there is a test version with working metaObjects and method loading in appserver/src/_featuretest
<chillywilly> that's what my diagram is supposed to show
<chillywilly> anyway
<chillywilly> siesel: you have been busy eh?
<sledge_> chillywilly: masta.txt? *g*
<siesel> :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> wow
<ajmitch> man
<chillywilly> cool Jan
Action: ajmitch is so slack
Action: ajmitch was wanting to help with geas but with ppl like these around...
<sledge_> ajmitch: ha! you no longer have a chance to obfuscate the code :)
Action: ajmitch sobs
<chillywilly> guess I don't get a chance either :(
<sledge_> you still have time to obfuscate the specs (read: make it win16-api-compatible) :)
<siesel> ok, I will delete the code to make everyone happy. ;) and by the way the code is not compatible with the specs now ... -> much work to do.
<ajmitch> hehehe
<ajmitch> if code doesn't fit specs - change specs
<chillywilly> siesel: yea, seems like a cool test version thgouh :)
<sledge_> ajmitch: specs are too cathedral-like
<chillywilly> I think there needs to be another module for the object-relational mapping stuff
<ajmitch> they're flexible :)
<siesel> there is still a thing I'm thinking over all the time....
<sledge_> siesel: whether promiscuity should be a moral imperative?
<siesel> you named it: chillywilly] I think there needs to be another module for the
<chillywilly> siesel: so you have a handle on the db abstraction layer?
<siesel>          object-relational mapping stuff
<sledge_> oh
Action: chillywilly hasn't even looked at it
<chillywilly> man, I think I am just slow oe something
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: ajmitch is
<sledge_> siesel: do you have any specific thoughts on OR-mapping?
<chillywilly> I had some links on various object-relational mappings I was going to use
<siesel> I think, the mapping should be handled by the metaObjects.
<chillywilly> to pull info from
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I agree there
<chillywilly> because the meta objects define the schema of our appserver
<chillywilly> (as do the odl/gcd definitions)
<sledge_> hm - what else could manage the mapping?
<siesel> and they define how much and how data has to be loaded from the database to build objects and vice versa
<chillywilly> siesel: seems with your object lifetime thing you are breaking things up into multiple caches, would that be a correct assessment?
<chillywilly> of you proposal
<chillywilly> your
<chillywilly> er, well how you could implement things anyway
<siesel> I first thought of ONE cache in memory and the database = TWO
<ajmitch> yes, sounds ok
<sledge_> i agree
<chillywilly> I have alewys though mayeb you could break things up into dirty/old cache, new/dirty cache, new, clean cache, etc.
<chillywilly> er, new/clean
<siesel> the lifetime stuff should define if an object should be stored into database or not...
<chillywilly> yea
<siesel> I thought of a WRITETHROUGH. 
<chillywilly> well the c++ binding defines like a proxy template thing and doe slazy loading
<chillywilly> does lazy
<chillywilly> you use the proxy object and finally whrn it really needs to it will pull from the database
<siesel> but if we make the database and cache manager and object, we can inherit it and add new caching principles... :)
<chillywilly> yea
<siesel>  /and object/an object/
<sledge_> sounds complicated
<chillywilly> I should go back through and stick my notes back into the geasarch.sgml file and add the empty sections where you can add GEDI and GEMA stuff
<chillywilly> that you just cooked up, it can be a workin progress
<sledge_> what does GEMA stand for?
<chillywilly> GEAS Methods Adapter
<sledge_> ah
<chillywilly> something like that
<chillywilly> it's in one of reinhard's papers
<siesel> I first thought there would be only two parts. CACHE and DB. But after looking at a metaObject implementation I thought of putting data into multiple tables. one table for each object type. But then its not easy to get an object only by its OID. 
<chillywilly> I think
<sledge_> GEMA is a german group of intellectual property blood-suckers
<chillywilly> eeek
<dneighbo> sledge_ i thought that was the
<dneighbo> GEAStoppo
<dneighbo> :)
<chillywilly> wooo
<dneighbo> er GEAStapo
<sledge_> you don't get that right: GEAStapo were the brain-suckers, similar to the WTO
<sledge_> nowadays
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> my bad
<dneighbo> so is reinhard: himmler?
<sledge_> but they all have in common that they suck, essentially
<sledge_> i don't know what himmler's task in the nazi regime was. siesel?
<chillywilly> hey siesel when you pass methodSource you are passing the name of a python file or what?
<dneighbo> i believe in 34 or so he was given head over gestapo
<dneighbo> and prussian police
<sledge_> ah, right :) hey, you familiar with german history?
<siesel> i just pass sourceCode
<chillywilly> hmmm
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<dneighbo> sledge_ somewhat
<dneighbo> i guess GEAStapo is lead by hier muller
<dneighbo> and that would make you all SS soliders :)
<siesel> himmler=head of the Gestapo and the Waffen-SS, Minister of the Interior from 1943 to 1945
<dneighbo> SS == Software Studs
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> siesel: I thought that geasObject == GObject some day and that geasMethod == Trigger....and we would have a common object system, what do you think of that?
<dneighbo> hmm would make for interesting analogy
<sledge_> GEAS = Geniuses Erode Authoritarian State
<chillywilly> :)
<dneighbo> i think java users are the ones that go to the concentration camp
<siesel> I thought the same way in the beginning... but haveing a closer look to GObj and GTrigger, I saw that the main use of them is to build up a tree, a kind of namespace which holds its own data
<chillywilly> lol
<sledge_> rofl
<chillywilly> where does it get the transaction_id from?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<dneighbo> hey on a serious note, some of you are in germany right?
<dneighbo> sledge or siesel?
<siesel> the main points for a geas Object (imho) are the following: small, fast, can be loaded and stored, can be object of an transaction (i.e. can be locked ...)
<siesel> both
<sledge_> yep, jan and me
<chillywilly> siesel: you look at the Object interface?
<dneighbo> you familiar with schutzhund?
<sledge_> dneighbo: do you have some military fetish? :9
<sledge_> s/9/)/
<dneighbo> sledge_ no
<dneighbo> i used to breed rottweilers
<siesel> I try to say why I think GObj and GTrigger shouln't used in geas.
<dneighbo> and do schutzhund work
<dneighbo> i only have one bitch left and havent done work with the dogs since 1994 or so, so most of my contacts are long gone
Action: dneighbo was considering looking for a new dog
<sledge_> dneighbo: what do these dogs protect you from?
<siesel> the transaction_id is the OID of an transaction object. which is not working at the moment.
<chillywilly> transactions should be transient
<chillywilly> thus they don't need an OID
<sledge_> transient?
<chillywilly> not persistent
<chillywilly> not stored int hedb
<chillywilly> the db
<dneighbo> figured there might be an 'off' chance one of you knows something about schutzhund and or the ADRK
<dneighbo> sledge_ : its just sport for me
<siesel> ok, so it could be another number. I just thought of passing an identifier so that an object cannot be released by an other transaction
<sledge_> aha
<dneighbo> protection is only a small portion of the work in schutzund
<dneighbo> generally a well trained dog makes for a much better companion :)
<chillywilly> there's three types of locks read, write and upgrade
<sledge_> dneighbo: same goes for fem^H^H^H forget about that :)
<chillywilly>       interface Object
<chillywilly>       {
<chillywilly>         enum    Lock_Type{read, write, upgrade};
<chillywilly>         // Obtains a specific lock on an object. If an attempt is made
<chillywilly>         // to get a lock on an already locked object, this operation
<chillywilly>         // will block until the specified lock can be acquired, some
<chillywilly>         // time-out threshold is exceeded, or a transaction deadlock is
<chillywilly>         // detected. If the time-out threshold is crossed a
<chillywilly>         // LockNotGranted exception is raised, If a transaction
<chillywilly>         // deadlock is detected, the transaction deadlock exception is raised.
<chillywilly>          void lock(in Lock_Type mode) raises(LockNotGranted);
<chillywilly> the upgrade lock is to prevent deadlocks
<dneighbo> sledge_ so you saying all bitches are a like?
<sledge_> dneighbo: maybe. but i'm prejudiced, had some bad experiences the last few months ;)
<chillywilly> of course I have to reread that part as I don't see when the deadlock occurs ;P
<dneighbo> sweet
<chillywilly> - upgrade locks are used to prevent a form of deadlock that occurs
<chillywilly>     when two processes both obtain read locks on an object and then
<chillywilly>     attempt to obtain a write locks on that same object, deadlock is
<chillywilly>     avoided by initially obtaining upgrade locks, instead of read
<chillywilly>     locks, for all objects that intend to be modified, avoids any
<chillywilly>     potential conflicts when a write lock is later obtained to modify
<dneighbo> all teh downloads for ADRK ar in .rtf format
<chillywilly>     the object
<dneighbo> instead of word !
<dneighbo> :)
<sledge_> dneighbo: warning - there is an open RTF and a MS variant!
<siesel> cw: I think I have to do the job from the first line in the TODO file:Change objects and interfaces to the definitions in odmg.txt
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> I'm sorry
<chillywilly> anyway, do you see where the deadlock scenario lies?
<chillywilly> I don't really see it
<siesel> me neither
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<sledge_> it's dark night. i go to sleep guys. read ya!
<chillywilly> night
<siesel> night sledge
<sledge_> siesel: btw, ikea is closed at the moment :)
<sledge_> have a nighty night
<siesel> don't remind me. i ve to got there the day after tomorow
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<chillywilly> oh I see
<siesel> cw: btw. have you looked on my object_lifecicle proporsal?
<chillywilly> you can't get a write when someone else has a  read lock
<chillywilly> you cannot lock and object when thereo sconflicting lock types
<chillywilly> siesel: I looked at the diagram
<chillywilly> briefly
<chillywilly> I will get back to it in a minute here
<chillywilly> I was reading your code
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> siesel: do you think it is worth it to define the ODM interface types as python classes that act as abtract base classes?
<siesel> And I finally understand why there are read locks. You don't want to read an object which has changed while you are reading it.
<chillywilly> ODMG
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> a dirty read is bad
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I understand the deadlock situation now
<chillywilly> do you?
<siesel> Yes.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> when someone has a read and so do you then you attempt to geta  write lock you can't, so they both wait on each other forever
<chillywilly> s/read/read lock/
<chillywilly> or the lock() times out ;)
<chillywilly> lock() method
<siesel> we should add this comments to odmg.txt
<chillywilly> umm, that's where I figured it out from....but I suppose we could add comments explaining it off the bat ;)
<siesel> this is what i meant. comments of comments 
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> sorry
Action: chillywilly reaized you were saying the same thing
<chillywilly> just realized
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> before I go eat dinner
<chillywilly> I want to ask you, as far as imeplementation goes, how would you define the ODMG "interfaces" in python would you just write classes supporting those methods or would youcreate some "abatract" classes that other people could use?
<chillywilly> I have struggled with this before
<chillywilly> er abstract
<chillywilly> Python really has no 'interface' concept
<chillywilly> but you can make it follow that
<chillywilly> this is key because I think we should write the code similarly yo how the ODL compiler would output other GCD/ODL stubs
<chillywilly> to get a feel for that
<siesel> I think we should write classes for it.
<chillywilly> er, classes with implementation?
<chillywilly> or classes that just define the methods and thrown NotImplemented exceptions or something
<siesel> this would be better. If someone don't like this implementation he still can overwrite it
<chillywilly> i.e., some abstract class
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> that's what I was thinking
<siesel> and if we are too lasy to write all the stuff just throw a NotImplemented exception
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> ok, now I am going to dinner
<chillywilly> take it easy man
<siesel> and i go to bed.
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<chillywilly> night
<siesel> bon appetit.
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<jcater> <chillywilly> you can't get a write when someone else has a  read lock
<jcater> <chillywilly> you cannot lock and object when thereo sconflicting lock types
<jcater> I think this is BAADDDDDD
<jcater> esp. as policy
<jcater> I could understand as a "first implementation" 
<jcater> but not as a long-term goal
<jcater> s/"first implementation"/"first-draft short-term implementation"
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<chillywilly> it's a pessimistic locking policy
Action: chillywilly is away: hitting the crack pipe
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:00:19)
<ajmitch> lay off that crack!
<chillywilly> there's nothgin that says you can't use other locking policies
<chillywilly> in fact ODMG standard says that locking policy is the "minimum" and you can do it different ways
<chillywilly> better ways
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<chillywilly> ello masta
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<chillywilly> hi jcater
<jcater> hi
<chillywilly> btw, that locking policy is just a pessimistic locking policy and we are in now way bound to it...the standard says you can imeplement different locking policies if you desire 
<chillywilly> it's like the least common denominator
<chillywilly> - ODMG Object Model supports pessimistic concurrency control as its
<chillywilly>   default policy, but does not preclude an ODMS from supporting a wider
<chillywilly>   range of concurrency control policies
<chillywilly> \
<jcater> ok
<jcater> sounds reasonable
<jcater> just didn't want that to be our "preferred", long-term method
<chillywilly> I don't think it is the greatest thing either
<chillywilly> also it says once you commit the transaction all locks are released
<chillywilly> still not the best policy in the world
<chillywilly> btw, you were working late tonight eh?
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<dneighbo> gack
<dneighbo> its 102 right now outside
<dneighbo> i forgot last summer to have gweather fellow fix his program
<dneighbo> it only displays 2 digit temperatures
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> quite warm
<dneighbo> which in AZ means 5 months out of the year you dont get a temperature )
<ajmitch> how hot can it get?
<dneighbo> http://gweather.dhs.org/
<dneighbo> :(
<dneighbo> its no longer maintained
<dneighbo> ajmitch: the hottest it has gotten here was 122
<chillywilly> wow
<dneighbo> normal summer has a few weeks at 115+
<chillywilly> that's freakin hot
<chillywilly> yuck
<dneighbo> with an occassional 119 to 120
<dneighbo> but after june
<ajmitch> ouch
<chillywilly> do they have heat advisories and such?
<dneighbo> it doesnt get below 100 
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> well to a degree
<chillywilly> telling people to stay indoors?
<dneighbo> it basically says DRINK WATER dumb ass
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> I like having 4 seasons
<chillywilly> even if I have to shovel snow
<chillywilly> I need the exercise anyway ;)
<ajmitch> come to NZ, we have 4 seasons in one day1
<chillywilly> or I can just buy a damn snow blower
<ajmitch> we don't get that much snow tho
<chillywilly> ajmitch: Milwaukee's weather changes very rapidly due to the big lake to the east ;)
<chillywilly> in fact people joke and say if you don't like the weather just wait a while and it will change ;)
<ajmitch> NZ's weather changes very rapidly due to being a small country in a big ocean
<chillywilly> yea, I can imagine that would have a huge effect
<ajmitch> like sun, then 10 minutes later big hailstones :)
<chillywilly> that has happened here before too
<ajmitch> sometimes we might have the same weather for 2-3 days :)
<chillywilly> lately it's been real rainy
<chillywilly> sorta depressing
<dneighbo> i dont like the cold, i like AZ :)
<chillywilly> I can't stand heat
<chillywilly> I'd rather be cold I think
<dneighbo> someday these youngin's will learn
<chillywilly> my buddy mike is the same way
<dneighbo> more heat == less clothes
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch imagines derek driving up & down the street...
<chillywilly> ah, but the quickest way to get warm is by huddling together and creating more heat ;)
Action: ajmitch pleads ignorance to these things
<dneighbo> um yeah some day you will get married 
<dneighbo> and then which is better
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<ajmitch> nah i'll probably remain a bachelor my whole life
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> ajmitch: if you keep hanging with chillywilly i would say so :)
<ajmitch> chillywilly will probably get hitched tho, if she doesn't kill him first ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: chillywilly is getting hitched June 7, 2003
<chillywilly> :P
<ajmitch> dneighbo: any odds on if he'll survive till then?
<chillywilly> I'm already dead
<dneighbo> 2003?
<dneighbo> whats wrong with you
<dneighbo> should be june 7 2002
<chillywilly> why are you asking what is wrong with me?
<chillywilly> you should know by now
<chillywilly> I am beyond all hope
<chillywilly> there's no fixin' what can't be fixed
<ajmitch> bother, what hope have i got then? :)
<chillywilly> nadda, zip, zilch, nothing, none
Action: dneighbo thinks chillywilly's passport wont be ready till may 2003 and thus the date
<chillywilly> you're what they call a "lost cause"
Action: ajmitch sobs
<chillywilly> dneighbo: lol
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Action: ajmitch looks up with an evil gleam in his eye
<ajmitch> gontran, my friend....
<dneighbo> gontran: i actually went to plug channel on the way out server
<chillywilly> uh oh.....
<dneighbo> curious to see what evolves there :)
Action: ajmitch struggles to contain his alternate persona
<chillywilly> PLUG on OPN is philly LUG
Nick change: ajmitch -> andrewm
<andrewm> too late
<chillywilly> noooooooo!
Action: chillywilly runs far away
<andrewm> muahaha
<chillywilly> dneighbo: plz make him stop
Action: andrewm feeds dneighbo pizza to keep him happy
<chillywilly> ack
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<gontran> ajmitch: hiya
Action: dneighbo quietly snarfs pizza in the corner
<gontran> dneighbo: hello
<dneighbo> hi gontran
<chillywilly> sup gontran
Nick change: andrewm -> ajmitch
<chillywilly> whew
<gontran> hey chillywilly 
Action: chillywilly rests easy now
<gontran> so dneighbo  how was irc on pretorian?
Action: gontran can feel the love
<chillywilly> man one of these days I will clean up my home dir
Action: gontran feels forms is complicated :)
<chillywilly> forms? you mean that code written by the UIX gh0d and the AI?
Action: gontran sings the cheers song
<chillywilly> s/UIX/UNIX
<gontran> um, i guess ... whos that exactly? :)
<chillywilly> jamest and jcater respectively
<chillywilly> ;)
<gontran> ah right
<gontran> :)
<gontran> the dynamic duo
<chillywilly> touch *dean
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> too many deans in this channel
<chillywilly> that will surely scare them off ;)
<dneighbo> gontran: um its dead as suspected
<gontran> dneighbo :), I tried it last year ... sucked :)
<gontran> #gnuenterprise is much more fun
Action: gontran quietly pays homage
<ajmitch> this channel is so boooring 
<dneighbo> mostly
<chillywilly> shea right
<gontran> heh
<gontran> i'm a cheap date
<gontran> I really need to get a set /w
<gontran> disregard that
Action: gontran rtfms
<gontran> is use of the 'host' attribute depricated in *.gfd files?
<dneighbo> um yes
<dneighbo> the database tag is depricated
<dneighbo> that information should be in the connections.conf file
<gontran> ah. thx :))
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<gontran> dneighbo you mentioned last week you have something called 'monster form' or similar that tests all features of forms implementation.  Pointer please, i'd like to use it as a battery test as i develop nstti/UIdriver.py
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> forms/samples/tracker/
<dneighbo> but cvs is out of date for it
<dneighbo> thats a todo for myself to fix the cvs version
Action: dneighbo is using that as a basis for something else
Action: gontran nods
<dneighbo> and so updated the 'branch' of it so to speak for jamest
<gontran> i suppose i can use forms/sample/track ftm
<gontran> thx
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<dneighbo> yummy not even barely started getting the mounds of cd's to ogg format yet
<dneighbo> and already have 80 hours of .oggs on my server :)
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<gontran> so that means you're sharing ? :)
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> that is illegal
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<chillywilly> darn I missed Barry
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<dneighbo> hmm so did i
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--- Tue May 14 2002