[00:29] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<btami> morning
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<riandouglas> hey
<btami> hi
<riandouglas> kinda dead here today?
<btami> this time is always quiet
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<ajmitch> hi esands
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<esands> hey
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<esands> This might interest some python people here:-  http://www.pyzine.com/   New Python print zine
<dtm> hi all
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<Harald1> morning
<dtm> Harald1: hi
<dtm> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=33053&cid=3570354  <---  GNU/Voltron
<dtm> M$ battles against Free Software which aligns in the form of five lions!
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<gontran> w00t! gnue!
<gontran> dtm thanx for the link to the voltron thing, i used to eat that show up :)
<dtm> h0h0
<dtm> me too
<dtm> gontran: how in the sam hill are ya, sir?
<gontran> dtm . ah thank you dtm.  just got back from seeing AOTC at
<gontran> one of 16 digital showings :)
<gontran> places
Action: gontran has fond memories of late nights with dtm -- ON IRC
<dtm> @#*)**)!
Action: gontran make modules_install linux-2.4.18 +xfs
Action: dtm rpm --rebuild mol
<gontran> ah you a mac hardware fan?
<gontran> or victim of circumstance ? :)
<dtm> both
<dtm> i'm a fan
<dtm> but i'm a fan because of the crazy circumstance that it's the most cost effective and best quality  :-/
<dtm> so how ya like them apples
<gontran> hmm most cost effective ? hows that?
<gontran> heh
<gontran> i've got gentoo running on this revB organge imac
<gontran> (that one there) :)
<dtm> well you take the sticker price of a creatively acquired used Macintosh, and you similarly creatively acquire upgrades for it, and hence an 8-10 yr old mac is about as fast as a current one.
<reinhard> gontran: there is an orange apple?
<reinhard> that sounds weird
<reinhard> :)
<gontran> hehe
<dtm> macs that are falling off of trucks such as the first powermacs, can be upgraded to G3 although are not as fast
<gontran> dtm I'm in the same boat! I got this mac for cheap 200 usd
<gontran> right, seen that
<gontran> reinhard next they'll be blueberry apples, weird!
<dtm> gontran: there ya go
<dtm> gontran:  well those imacs are totally upgradable too
<dtm> firewire, usb, ram, and cpu
<gontran> dtm really?  i had it apart and seemed purty dead end ...
<dtm> some of the old ones (i think including yours) have an obscure slot in it for things like video upgrades
<dtm> the old imacs
<gontran> saw that
<gontran> wondered
<dtm> yeah that's called something like the "Mezzanine slot" or something
<dtm> it's a sheer artifact, declared by apple not to be used
<gontran> it's such a piece of doorstop -- heh messanine
<dtm> so of course instantly a 3rd party market was created to stuff things in it
<gontran> yeah
<dtm> you will find the most absolutely mind numbingly obscure macintosh upgrades
<dtm> if you look hard enough
<dtm> things like scsi-to-ethernet adapter
<dtm> s
<gontran> :)  
<dtm> people go hog wild to preserve their precious investments, especially in such charismatic and diehard machines
<dtm> they _love_ them
<gontran> the hardware geeks are way ott :)
<dtm> anybody who thinks macintosh hardware/software culture is exclusively a productivity oriented or premium market, is culturally skewed
Action: gontran trying _this_ .18 +xfs on lousy broken compaq hardware :)
<dtm> good luck
<gontran> heh, hmm
<gontran> dtm what would you say it is, a bunch of cultists? :)
<dtm> Hmmm.
<dtm> gontran: there's that everywhere!
<dtm> gontran: talkin bout human society here!  :)
<gontran> yes.
<gontran> i can do it, i deserve it
<gontran> where's my guru?
<dtm> gontran: i think macintosh users tend to be highly value conscious and sensible people, mindful of the big picture and avoidant of mediocrity!  ;)
<dtm> heheh
<gontran> that
<dtm> THEY'RE CONSUMER COMPUTING JEDIS, EVERY ONE OF EM
<gontran> or style mongering VW drivers
<dtm> hey there's summa that too.
<gontran> put a flower in it
<dtm> "style mongering" -- i like it
<gontran> 'gnue mongering'
<gontran> trout monger
Action: dtm mongers gnue
<dtm> lol
<gontran> dude gross
<dtm> :-o
<dtm> YOU SAID IT FIRST.
<gontran> 8) did not
<gontran> this is the kind of sophmoric rhetoric that will one day
<gontran> clearly set gnue apart as a _great_ project
<dtm> lol
<dtm> <voice type="Armand">nono, is ALREADY begun!</voice>
Action: gontran swears reiserfs
<dtm> the voices, they come to me.
<dtm> i was trying to figure out whose that was.... Zorro?  ...  no..
<gontran> no, i didn't hear anything!.
<gontran> i'm much better now, thanks.
<dtm> Is de interview with de....  hmm.... How you say?   Ah yes.  De Vampire.
<gontran> oh, anne rice freak huh?
<dtm> NONO   NOOO, PLEEZ SENOR!!   DE VAMPIRE!   EEEZ TOO SECKSAYYYYYY!!!!!
<gontran> I'm too sexy for my blood
<dtm> you do not say.
<ajmitch> hi
<gontran> i said nothing!
<dtm> NO NO!!   NOT DE AJMITCH!!   NONO, DE AJMITCH...  EEEZ TOOO SEEEEEEECKSAAAAAYYY!!
Nick change: gontran -> gontran_schultz
<dtm> NO NO SENOR!
<gontran_schultz> i said nothing!
<dtm> NO, PLEEEZ!
<gontran_schultz> i said nothing! nothing!
<dtm> NOT DE AJMEEEETCH
<gontran_schultz> hi ajmitch and good morning
Action: dtm pulls off a glove and slaps gontran_schultz with it in a deft downstroke
Action: ajmitch crawls back into his hole
<gontran_schultz> nothing!
Nick change: gontran_schultz -> commandant_gontr
Action: dtm applies calipers and a hand trowel to extract ajmitch
Action: commandant_gontr shines flashlight
<dtm> 8-o
<commandant_gontr> 8==>
<commandant_gontr> heh
<commandant_gontr> gross
Nick change: commandant_gontr -> gonro5hin
Nick change: gonro5hin -> AlterB0y
<AlterB0y> heh.  no stop!
Nick change: AlterB0y -> ft_gontran
<ft_gontran> a holy sacrament my son
<ft_gontran> didn't mean to press a sore spot
<ft_gontran> er, wait
<ft_gontran> you know!
<ft_gontran> you should tell or get some kind of revenge
Action: ft_gontran lights up
Action: ft_gontran reinstalls grub
Action: dtm gets totally confused, whirls around the room, pees in the sink while drooling, and lays down on the kitchen floor
<ft_gontran> hehe
Action: ft_gontran phears deleting /etc/mtab
Action: ajmitch rm -rf's ft_gontran
Nick change: ft_gontran -> gontran
<gontran> whew
<dtm> well, dont look at me.  i'm busy being passed out on the kitchen floor.
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Nick change: gontran -> ft_gontran
Action: ft_gontran shakes holy water (heh) on dtm
Action: ft_gontran reboots --- again
<dtm> ft_gontran: You reboot only becuase I _want_ you to reboot.
<ft_gontran> dtm you complete me
<dtm> Never think otherwise.
<ft_gontran> you're my oprah
<ft_gontran> w00! booting!
<ft_gontran> \/dev/hda7 on / type xfs (rw,noatime)
<ft_gontran> i've spent like 4 hours today converting my laptops fs from (lousy) reiserfs to xfs
<ft_gontran> lots of stupid tar tricks :)
<ft_gontran> rescue disks, wget piping to stdout, oh my
<dtm> HA
<dtm> what did you do with wget?!
<ft_gontran> stop it, you're just baiting me
<ft_gontran> :)
<ft_gontran> ok ok i give
<ft_gontran> heh
<dtm> i can only imagine :)
Action: ft_gontran throws a bagel at dtm
<ft_gontran> ok so 
<dtm> h0h0
<dtm> :-o  <---     /me catches
<ft_gontran> i wanted to not reinstall 
<ft_gontran> heh
<ft_gontran> so
<ft_gontran> boot rescue disk; 
<ft_gontran> tar --numeric-owner -pcf - ./ \
<ft_gontran> | ssh myhost '(cd where/to/; tar --numeric-owner -pxvf -)'
<ft_gontran> to get the data off the drive
<dtm> :-o
<ft_gontran> then
<dtm> haha
<ft_gontran> after repartitioning and setting up with xfs fs
<dtm> i am _quite_ familiar with that part
<ft_gontran> well here's where i made a mistake
<dtm> especially across platforms and odd such things
<ft_gontran> i _should've_ just dumped a single tar archive (yeah)
<ft_gontran> then i symlinked a single tar archive of that export
<ft_gontran> into my htdocs
<ft_gontran> and did
<ft_gontran> wget http://myhost/myarchive.tgz -O - | tar --numeric-owner -pxvf -
<ft_gontran> with busybox wget
<ft_gontran> seemed to work ok :))
<ft_gontran> i was originally trying to do some stuff with named pipes on 'myhost', but apache didn't like it
Action: ft_gontran feels special, after mass
<dtm> h0h0
<dtm> some people would have used a network filesystem too.
<dtm> with 'rsync -a --delete --partial'
<dtm> s/too/instead/
<ft_gontran> that is a great idea
Action: ft_gontran slaps head with palm
<dtm> oh, and mounting nfs with no_root_squash
Action: ft_gontran rebooting with pcmcia-cs modules
<dtm> of course in really crazy situations i've done what you did plus with 'bzip2' in the pipe
<dtm> that was effed up.
<ft_gontran> ah yes, maybe a little slow
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<ft_gontran> rsync is nothing short of miraculous
<dtm> absolutely
Action: ft_gontran tosses a communion host into ajmitch's hole^H^H^H^H pit
<dtm> gotta make sure to do 'partial' if you're doing a long-running single file
<dtm> h0h0
Action: ajmitch puts ft_gontran on /ignore
<ft_gontran> ajmitch whadid i do? I'm innocent.  Innocent i tell you.
<ft_gontran> where's GNUeWhippingBoy to take the heat when you need him?
<ft_gontran> hmmm
<dtm> ft_gontran: there's such a wide selection to choose from
<ft_gontran> dtm backup options?
<dtm> ft_gontran: eh?
<dtm> i was referring to GNUWhippingBoys
<ft_gontran> Oooh yes!  whipping boys
<ft_gontran> yum
<dtm> now dont get too overzealous there dwed
<ft_gontran> all this mucking about with fs's is due to reiserfs blitzing
<dtm> it's on a first come first serve, and as-is basis
<dtm> blitzing?
<ft_gontran> (oh now there's some limits! ha)
<dtm> reiserfs is a great idea in chaotic development
<ft_gontran> heh
<ft_gontran> blitzing my /usr/include/expat.h
<ft_gontran> which caused my python install to 
<ft_gontran> not have pyexpat.so
<ft_gontran> which led to gfcvs not running
<ft_gontran> damn reiserfs to chaotic development
<dtm> oh that's already been done from the start : )
<dtm> :)
<dtm> Hans sees to that :)
<ft_gontran> :)
<ft_gontran> gahd it's 3:33 mst
<dtm> he's also made sure to personally offend each key kernel developer and drag them unwittingly into a flamewar
<ft_gontran> takes a special talent
<dtm> including Stephen Tweedie, Alan Cox, and that one guy from SuSE
<ft_gontran> likt D T M
<ft_gontran> D T M
[05:33] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dtm> @#*(@ YAY (@&@
<ajmitch> almost as good as gontran
<ft_gontran>  (to the tune of a DMX tune)
<dtm> GON   TRAN       GON     TRAN      GON    TRAN
Action: ft_gontran thought ajmitch had me on /ignore
<ajmitch> almost
<ft_gontran> DTM
<dtm> ft_gontran: what does the name "gontran" come from?
<ft_gontran> <cough> that's _father_ gontran
<dtm> i'm coughing too, due to something like bronchitis i gues
<dtm> s
<dtm> :/
<dtm> up all night with it
<ft_gontran> dtm seriously, my dad's name, hid dad's too 
<dtm> eh?  first name?
<ft_gontran> it's french, i'm of mexican descent
<ft_gontran> yup
<dtm> oooooooh
<ft_gontran> brown boy in the hizous
<dtm> ft_gontran: and where are you living hnow?1
<dtm> HAHAHA
<ft_gontran> phoenix for the next 8 days
<ft_gontran> on the road for a while after that
<ft_gontran> looking for a place to live/work/get edumatcated
<dtm> oh yeah you're in the same LUG as derek and planning a tour of the southwest US
<dtm> well come up here, ya wacko
<dtm> or something.
<ft_gontran> well, not just the southwest :) thx
<ft_gontran> first stop Toronto
<dtm> yeah that's not southwest of here.
<dtm> by car?
<dtm> or what
<ft_gontran> yup :)
<dtm> geez.
<ft_gontran> roadtrip!
<dtm> watch out for the mountainsW@)*#!
<dtm> by yourself?
<dtm> i hope you have insurance
<ft_gontran> nosir, with my wife
<dtm> and AAA!
<ft_gontran> yup :)
<dtm> oh there's more of you?
<ft_gontran> heh, lot's more:)
<dtm> have you reproduced yet
<ft_gontran> christ no
<dtm> OIC
<ft_gontran> father gontran + kids -- it's like oil and holy water
<dtm> and the mere thought causes you to invoek the deity!
<ft_gontran> heh
<ft_gontran> j/k
<dtm> :)
<ft_gontran> i love kids, just not time for em you know?
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> CHILDREN ARE IRRELEVANT
<ft_gontran> k dtm, your turn, dcc your specs
<ft_gontran> :)
<ft_gontran> and smelly
<dtm> I UNDERSTAND YOUR LIFE PRIORITIES NOW, GONTRAN.
<ft_gontran> and noisy
<ft_gontran> D T M
[05:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dtm> AND IRRELEVANT
<ft_gontran>     D T M
<ft_gontran>        D T M
<ft_gontran>           D T M
<dtm> dtm != biochildren
<ft_gontran> i'm a genetic engineer
<ft_gontran> i 0wn your children
<dtm> the phenomenon of unwanted children is the root of the worst suffering the world will ever know
<ft_gontran> i 0wn your future
<dtm> well until the end of the world
<ft_gontran> 2003 i hear
<dtm> but then tha'tll be better for us   RIGHT, AJMITCH!??  HAHAHAHAHAHAH
<ft_gontran> or 2012
<dtm> ft_gontran: oh?  great.
<dtm> better get ready!
<ft_gontran> yeah, there's like some planetary body on a 64,000 year
<dtm> i've seen "Left Behind" like THREE TIMES, D00D
<ft_gontran> cycle
<dtm> oh, those planetary cycles... those are no good.
<dtm> you dont want those.
<ft_gontran> bound to slam through the solarsystem and move our poles
<dtm> nah, leave those alone
<ft_gontran> "left behind" ?
<ft_gontran> dtm: married?
<ft_gontran> dtm: sfo = san francisco?
<ft_gontran> dtm: bi-curious?
<ft_gontran> D T M
<ft_gontran>      D T M
<ft_gontran>         D T M
Nick change: ft_gontran -> dtm_fan
<dtm> "left behind" is the phenomenon where God will suck up all the true believers on a first pass, leaving the rest to swelter and writhe in their own filth and corruption.  
<dtm> dtm_fan: H0H0H0H0
<dtm> and they'll have 7 yrs to think about things and get generally persecuted.  at least it's a second chance.  then Jesus comes back and B3WM, too late.
<dtm_fan> oh, that's like zoarastrianism
<dtm> lake of fire, etc etc
<dtm> dtm_fan: i know nothing of such large words!
<dtm> dtm_fan: it's just Revelations
Nick change: dtm_fan -> gontran|
<ajmitch> no, it's more related to dispensationalism
<dtm> IT'S FULLY DOCUMENTED, SEE THE RFC PLZ THX
<gontran|> oh yeah, the rfc-666
<dtm> HAHAHA
<dtm> THAT'S THE ONE
<gontran|> heh
Action: gontran| looks for rfc viewer
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<gontran|> plz read: 'gontran -- named pipe'
<gontran|> first in first out
<gontran|> who is first?
Action: dtm is on first
<dtm> drochaid: high
<drochaid> dtm: low
Nick change: gontran| -> ft_gontran
Action: ft_gontran is on high
<dtm> why do i have the feeling that you all will be the death of me?
<ft_gontran> preachin
<dtm> i have to go to bed now
<ft_gontran> no i do
<drochaid> I just got up dtm :)
<ft_gontran>  i mean i have to feed the prisoners in the church basement
Nick change: ft_gontran -> gontran
<gontran> dtm have a good rest
<gontran> ajmitch as always, a pleasure
<gontran> drochaid cheers, goodnight
Action: dtm sprints at the window, diving headfirst, smashing through the glass, gripping the bot which hovers outside the window, rides it for a bit, then freefalls 2 miles down to his bedroom
<gontran> heh
<gontran> goodnight all
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Action: dtm levitates daintily inside
<dtm> ttyl all
Action: drochaid thinks dtm may have seen AOTC
<dtm> dont kill anybody
<drochaid> cya
<Harald1> ttyl?
<drochaid> talk to you later
<Harald1> ahh
<drochaid> :)
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<riandouglas> hey
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<MiHu_> I have a home-brewn makefile that does not get some dependencies right. It compiles some stuff again and again, even if nothing changed. Can anyone give me a hint on this?
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Action: pattieja is back (gone 23:48:10)
Action: pattieja is away: iTEC
<reinhard> MiHu_: maybe this isn't the best channel to ask
<reinhard> we are about www.gnuenterprise.org a project to do business software as free software
<reinhard> as we are a python project we don't even use makefiles :)
<dneighbo> generally there are knowledgable makefile folks around
<dneighbo> but they really need an #autotools or #automake or something channel here :)
<MiHu_> dneighbo: Ok, thanks. 8-)
Action: Yurik_ has the blues
Nick change: Yurik_ -> Yurik
<Harald1> reinhard: may I ask you some dumb questions about geas2?
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<reinhard> you may even ask smart questions :)
<reinhard> fire off :)
<Harald1> ok: where are the methods of business objects stored?
<reinhard> along with the class definitions
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<reinhard> we haven't set it in stone but i strongly believe it will be in the database
<Harald1> or in gcd or xml files (like the definitons)?
<reinhard> in the database (like the definitions)
<Yurik> reinhard: you mean you'll store code in db?
<reinhard> gcd or xml will only be a means to trasport it
<reinhard> but at runtime all this will come from the db
<reinhard> Yurik: yes
<Yurik> reinhard: are the set of language for methods implementation a limited one?
<Yurik> err, s/are/is/
<Yurik> s/language/languages/
<Harald1> reinhard: ok, and what about c++ methods (in a later version), will the compiled methods be stored, or the source code and then on-the-fly compilation?
<Yurik> sleepy a bit =)
<Yurik> yeah-yeah, i was asking about something like Harald1 issued
<Harald1> hehe
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<reinhard> support of other languages for methods is very low on priority
<reinhard> and i'm still not sure if it makes sense to support compiled languages for methods
<Yurik> it makes a lot of sense
<Yurik> for the time-critical methods
<Yurik> at leats
<Yurik> at least
<reinhard> as i'm not sure how we would handle things like you have two appservers (with load balancing) where one is a pentium and the other one is a ppc
<reinhard> i don't think compiling method code gains much performance
<reinhard> as opposed to for example optimization of db access
<Harald1> reinhard: ok. does this mean that if two business objects have some methods which are identical, these have to be stored twice?
<Yurik> have you though about separating attributes & methods
<Yurik> ?
<reinhard> i'm open to any ideas
<reinhard> Harald1: yes, however this won't be the case very often (imho)
<Yurik> i can only propose the way we use in Bauss (E/AS Software Foundation project)
<Yurik> it's very simple: attributes & methods are separated. methods are just reffered from the database to their location at services that run that methods
<Yurik> so method could be implemented in any language
<Yurik> the only one thing is that this method wrapper must be able to talk w/ its service
<Yurik> i think that storing code in db is a bad idea
<Harald1> reinhard: I can't think of a good example at the moment but I think this is pretty frequent for tasks which have some subtasks in common 
<Harald1> Yurik: so where are the methods?
<Yurik> Harald1: they are "attached" to "functionality provider" services
<Yurik> and speak only w/ them
<reinhard> Yurik: how do you deploy them?
<Harald1> Yurik: what exactly do you mean by "functionality provider" services
<Yurik> reinhard: what do you mean *exactly*?
<Yurik> Harald1: it's a service that is designed to be plugged with methods
<reinhard> Yurik: i sit in my office an my customer wants a method changed. i can access his server over 28K modem line. What do i have to do to change the method code at his server?
<Harald1> Yurik: as a part of the appserver?
<Yurik> Harald1: well, we have no notion of an appserver. Bauss is highly structured system w/ separate services
<Yurik> reinhard: mostly identically. i can describe precisely, but it will take a lot of time
<reinhard> Yurik: sorry i didn't understand that "mostly identically" - what is identical with what?
<Harald1> Yurik: do I get it right: For example you have a service which construct the business objects from the database and one which holds the methods?
<Yurik> reinhard: sorry, it's my bad. with way that you use in GNUe. 
<Yurik> reinhard: as I can understand it from your words
<Yurik> Harald1: well, if superficially, yes
<reinhard> Yurik: so where is the actual method code stored in E/AS: in the db or in a file?
<Harald1> Yurik: and the "functionality provider" services has to store the methods somewhere, too? where?
<Yurik> reinhard: method code isn't stored. it is running (if look superficially. somewhere some tricks are used to low the system load)
<Harald1> oops same question as reinhard
<reinhard> Yurik: i don't understand
<Yurik> Harald1: yes, first on the file system. May be later will think of another ways
<reinhard> Yurik: ah ok
<Yurik> reinhard: umm... it's my bad. My English is very poor... let me try to explain again
<reinhard> on the file system == in a file?
<reinhard> Yurik: your English is much better than my Russian :)
<Yurik> reinhard: well, first method that will be used - yes, programs will be in files... may be later will add loader from BaussDB
Action: Yurik pointed this topic. important issue to think more
<reinhard> Yurik: how does the server find the file when it needs a method?
<Harald1> Yurik & reinhard: I don't have anything against storing the code in the db. but what I think would be better: don't store the methods with the objects, but just referr to them
<reinhard> Harald1: and store them where?
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<Harald1> reinhard: in another table, so that different objects can use the same methods
<Yurik> reinhard: on the method deploy method gets its own OID and OID -> name mapping is added
<reinhard> Yurik: ah
<Yurik> Harald1: In fact, I think to make Bauss able to start method from elsewhere - file system, BaussDB
<Harald1> Yurik: but if you store them in a db, you've got the same problem with compiled code, right?
<Yurik> Harald1: in fact it will be not so complex to implement
<Yurik> Harald1: since code do not migrates from the host it should not raise any problems
<Yurik> Harald1: while deploy method, it's compiled following the rules defined
<Yurik> Harald1: so it seems we'll got no probs
<reinhard> Harald1 and Yurik: in any case i think it is 100% important to make appserver modular so if we want to add another option (to store methods etc.) later, we can do without complete rewrite
<Harald1> Yurik: and then what's the problem with gnue storing code in the db?
<Yurik> Harald1: if i understand correctly, this code is stored and runned on each request, right?
<Yurik> Harald1: (may be i missed something)
<Yurik> Harald1: for me DB is just a way to deploy it and start once
<Yurik> Harald1: so it acts quite like file
<Yurik> Harald1: it acts like storage to start it rarely
Action: Yurik hopes that guys are understanding him
<Harald1> Yurik: afaik it depends, they are run everytime they are run (via hook or direct call).
<Harald1> Yurik: I guess I understand you
<Yurik> Harald1: so they start method code on each request for this method execution?
<Harald1> reinhard: that's obviously a good aim. does storing methods independent of the objects, prehend this?
<Harald1> Yurik: hmm, I'm just getting into the whole appserver stuff, I guess reinhard can give you better answers on such topics
<Yurik> Harald1: ok. hope reinhard will answer :)
<reinhard> sorry i'm in and out
<reinhard> Yurik: i'm not sure about it
<reinhard> i _think_ we should aim at something like
<reinhard> method code can be dynamically changed while server is running
<reinhard> and on next invocation new code is active
<Yurik> yes, could be. but it is no need to start method every time for this need
<reinhard> but appserver caches method code and if not changed
<reinhard> then it can use (precompiled) version in cache
<Yurik> in fact, i've some method to make an update and avoid denial of service
<Yurik> but i need to work on it a little more to formalize and prove it
<reinhard> questions like these depend actually what you want
<reinhard> do you want a perfect system that works in 100 years
<Yurik> yes, i want :)
<reinhard> or do you want a system that's usable in two months and works well enough
<Yurik> and trying to make such a system that have no need to be stopped even for a bit
<reinhard> Yurik: sorry i had bad wording
<reinhard> i meant do you want a system that is ready to use in 100 years (but not earlier)
<reinhard> that needs 100 years development
<Yurik> ah you mean that
<reinhard> :)
<Yurik> no, i'll die in 100 years :) actually I know the terms in which my project could be delivered first time
<reinhard> i _know_ that we can discuss about the best way to store methods for 3 years and not write a single line of code
<reinhard> i know it because the gnu enterprise project worked like this for 3 years
<reinhard> until derek came and kicked our butts :)
<Yurik> well, as for me, i think that i know the way Bauss will use, so for my project there is no big discussions on such kinda things
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> i also know how geas2 will work
<reinhard> and siesel knows, too
<reinhard> and derek knows, too
<reinhard> however these 3 knowledges are quite different :)
<Yurik> If I'll find good investor, I plan to make first delivery in 2-2.5 years (w/ inter milestones, of course).. so no 100 years of development
<reinhard> Yurik: cool
<Harald1> reinhard: actually object independent method storage is something which should be implementable in a later version, without too much code changes (I think), so I agree that storing the methods with the definition is the best way to do it now
<Yurik> since Bauss project is small (by team), I still keep authoritarian control on its design
<reinhard> Yurik: you are going to work full-time on bauss?
<reinhard> Yurik: that saves a lot of time :)
<Yurik> reinhard: well, I'd like to work full-time on Bauss, but have no possibility now - I nead to buy my bread
<Yurik> reinhard: yeah, really :)
Action: Yurik is listening Lacrimosa
<Yurik> s/nead/need/
<Yurik> sleepy, really :)
<reinhard> Harald1: you have more questions?
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<Harald1> reinhard: yes. can/will business objects run automatically or only if the are controlled by a user?
<reinhard> you mean will _methods_ run automatically?
<reinhard> i hope business object don't run
<reinhard> or i'll have to catch them ;)
<Harald1> reinhard: hehe
<Yurik> are you guys crazy? :) GNUe will be totally human-driven system? 
<Harald1> reinhard: I mean something like this: 
<ra3vat> Yurik: bread? obviously your project is quite different - only donuts are allowed here
<reinhard> ra3vat: rofl
<ra3vat> :)
<Yurik> donuts?
<Harald1> reinhard: A company wants to controll its inventory. It wants to do this automatically, but doesn't want the software to place the orders itself. So there's an object monitoring the inventory and if it's below a specified treshold it sends a warning (via email etc.). This could be done by checking the inventory, when taking something out of it (but would slow down each request)
<Yurik> what is donut?
<reinhard> Harald1: ok gotcha
<reinhard> my first thought is
<reinhard> business objects are not business subjects
<reinhard> objects do not act, the are acted upon
<reinhard> however there might be procedures that are run automatically
<reinhard> a method is a method
<reinhard> invoked by the user or invoked by cron doesn't make much difference
<reinhard> but i don't have plans to have "demons" in appserver
<reinhard> disclaimer: appserver doesn't always listen to my plans :)
<Yurik> reinhard: your software has its own life? :)
Nick change: reinhard -> appserver
<appserver> sorry, i can't do that, dave
Nick change: appserver -> reinhard
<reinhard> oops?
Nick change: Yurik -> Bauss
<Bauss> I'm just waiting for my masta to code ;)
Nick change: Bauss -> Yurik
Action: Yurik is out to smoke
<Harald1> reinhard: ahh now I think I understood what's exactly meant by business objects
<reinhard> Harald1: you've read the newspaper?
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> brain damage
<reinhard> i mean
<reinhard> you've read the whitepaper?
<Harald1> reinhard: yes
<reinhard> Harald1: if you have improvements on the explaination what a business object is, please fire off!
<Harald1> though it doesn't really answer that question (what business objects are)
<reinhard> it's really hard to explain such things
<reinhard> Harald1: there has been an update last week
<reinhard> which touches the topic _a_little_
<Harald1> reinhard: correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think of business objects as another "view" on database tables
<Harald1> reinhard: hmm I made the whitepaper this week, but it is from 2002-05-04, is it up-to-date?
Action: drochaid is back (gone 01:52:12)
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> should be 2002-05-21 iirc
<Harald1> I've got another one 2002-05-19
<reinhard> um yes that's current
<reinhard> edition 0.0.5
Action: Yurik is back and drinking mineral water
<Harald1> reinhard: there's a definition of business objects. I think its pretty good. Does the first sentence mean that the data itself is part of the business object, or is it just the definition of the data? To take the example from the whitepaper is a business object for a person the definition of the attributes a person, and of operations to perform on these, or is it the set of all stored persons and operations on these?
<reinhard> business object can actually mean both
<reinhard> a business object class
<reinhard> or a business object instance
<reinhard> i would say business object describes the _concept_ of doing it like this
<reinhard> and if you want to talk about the definition or the actual data
<reinhard> we should use the terms business object class or business object instance
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<AthlonTB_01> est-ce qu'il s'agit d'un channel français ici ?
<reinhard> non
<reinhard> c'est un channel anglais
<reinhard> :)
<Harald1> so a business object class is independent of an actual db table, while an business object instance performs actual operations on a table. Am I right?
<reinhard> Harald1: most business object classes will have a db table more or less mapped to them
<AthlonTB_01> reinhard tu es francais ?
<Harald1> reinhard: though only the definition of a table, not the table with the actual content?
<reinhard> i.e. if the business object class "customer" defines that there is a field "name"
<reinhard> then it's probable that there is a table with a column with a very similar name
<reinhard> Harald1: exactly
<reinhard> class relates to table definition, an instance relates to an actual row in the table
<reinhard> AthlonTB_01: non, autrichien
<reinhard> mais j'aime pretender de parler francais :)
Action: reinhard envisions AthlonTB_01 cringing from his bad french
<AthlonTB_01> what I haven't understood what you have said
<reinhard> i wanted to say i like to pretend that i can speak french
<reinhard> but i only pretend :)
<AthlonTB_01> ok 
<Harald1> reinhard: isn't there an "of" missing in "GEAS lets the user define classes of business objects, where the class definition states the data elements(called fields) __of__ objects of this class"?
<AthlonTB_01> reinhard: You are IT analyst ?
<reinhard> Harald1: seems like that, yes
<reinhard> thanks
<reinhard> AthlonTB_01: no, i'm programmer :)
<Harald1> reinhard:  oh no, just a comma
<AthlonTB_01> analyste programmer = IT analyst no ?
<reinhard> AthlonTB_01: in fact it's the same
<reinhard> i was joking about it
<AthlonTB_01> Ich spreche ein bissen deutsch
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> schön
<reinhard> :)
<AthlonTB_01> ;-)
<reinhard> Harald1: be careful with commas in English!
<reinhard> :)
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<AthlonTB_01> reinhard : what software have you created ?
<reinhard> so we all agree to switch the official IRC language to german?
<jcater> how's it going, d00d
<jcater> s
<Harald1> reinhard: though it makes sense here. without putting "objects of this class will consist of" into commata, I didn't understand what you were talking about
<reinhard> jcater: you good at english grammar?
<Harald1> reinhard: da gibt's ja dann noch mehr Kommata (there's even more commata)
<jcater> I speak it natively
<jcater> but that doesn't mean anything :)
<reinhard> lol
<reinhard> Harald1: could you please paste the complete sentence here?
<AthlonTB_01> mdr
<reinhard> i have the text on other machine so can't copy&paste :(
<Harald1> reinhard: wait a min, I have to convert it to pdf to copy&paste
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<Harald1> GEAS lets the user define @dfn{classes} of business objects, where the class
<Harald1> definition states the data elements (called @dfn{fields}) objects of this class
<Harald1> will consist of as well as the functions that will be available to act upon
<Harald1> the objects (called @dfn{methods}).
<Harald1> taken from the source code, pdf used bitmap fonts
<reinhard> Harald1: you could use .txt to copy&paste from if you want
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> jcater: would you say that sentence (please ignore all "@dfn") is missing commas?
<Harald1> reinhard: I've got no makeinfo here
<reinhard> Harald1: huh? what kind of system is that?? ;)
<Harald1> reinhard: windows with most of the unix tools on top
<reinhard> ah so you don't have GNU/Linux, you have GNU/Windows? ;)
<reinhard> i am 99% positive there is makeinfo in cygwin
<reinhard> (i guess you are using cygwin)
<Harald1> reinhard: yes, but it seems that I didn't installed it
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> jcater has gone anyway as it seems :)
<Harald1> reinhard: I guess there aren't any commas missing, but adding them wouldn't be wrong, too
<Harald1> and would clear the meaning of the sentence up
<reinhard> after "fields)" and after "consist of" ?
<jcater> GEAS lets the user define @dfn{classes} of business objects. The class
<jcater> definitions describe both the data elements (called @dfn{fields}) and
<jcater> the available functions (called @dfn{methods}) of the business objects.
<jcater> maybe that's a little more clear?
<jcater> I need to run again
<reinhard> I once wrote a text that was later discussed in a mailing list, and someone commented like "He has good ideas, but his English is very painful"
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> jcater: thanks a lot
<Harald1> reinhard: because you are writing German English. I tend to do the same, my sentences get longer and longer, and in the end no one knows what I mean
<reinhard> Harald1: the scary thing is that i have the same problem when i write in German ;)
<Harald1> reinhard: that's a bad combination ;)
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<dneighbo> we have our booth officially now for LWE SF
<dneighbo> .ORG Pavillion Booth #6
<dneighbo> yeah
<reinhard> dneighbo: cool
<reinhard> dneighbo: own booth only for gnue?
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> will be 4th LWE we have had booth at
<dneighbo> 2 NY and 2 SF (though no one was able to man the booth last time at NY)
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<Yurik> psu: hi
<dneighbo> someone should tell t3rmin4t0r its hasta not asta ;)
<dneighbo> darn silent j's and h's will kill ya gringos every time
<psu> hi Yurik
Action: Yurik is going to reboot
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<dneighbo> dneighbo@ash:/var/www/irc-logs$ grep Arturas *|grep .lt|grep www 
<dneighbo> gnue-public.log.21Feb2002:<Arturas> I guess you know www.codeworks.lt :)
<dneighbo> dneighbo@ash:/var/www/irc-logs$ 
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<drochaid> allo to any debian users who want to help me :)
<drochaid> the rest of you can sod off ;)
<dsmith> drochaid: I think there are more deb-heads than not.
<dsmith> drochaid: s/deb-heads/deb-heads here/
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<Chipaca> hi all
<Chipaca> reinhard: you're the geas/appserver guy, right?
<reinhard> sorta
<drochaid> dsmith: I've just re-installed deb woody testing ... all goes fine during install, except "apt-get install aptitude" now returns an error ...
<Chipaca> reinhard: we've been fighting with datasources, cursing that you can't make one access two table at the same time...
<Chipaca> reinhard: ...only that when we were over at my place last night talking about stuff we realized that no, datasources *should* be stupid, because it's the appserver where the intelligence belongs
<reinhard> Chipaca: i'm highly sorry but i have to leave in 15 minutes
<reinhard> and have to finish a program until then
<reinhard> :(
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<Chipaca> reinhard: I just wanted to let you know we'll be pestering you a lot in future
<drochaid> "Sorry but the following packages have unmet dependancies ... Aptitude: Depends: libapt-pkg2.7 ... E: sorry, broken packages"
<Chipaca> reinhard: one last thing:
<drochaid> is there anything I'm likely to be able to do about this? it never used to cause a problem
<Chipaca> reinhard: how usable is appserver right now? i mean, is it "nothing works as it stands", or is it "only this works" (and where can i find that 'this') (ok that's two questions)
<Chipaca> drochaid: did you try dselect?
<drochaid> never used it
<reinhard> Chipaca: i would say wait a week then some basic functions will be usable
<Chipaca> drochaid: try it: dselect, next 'update', 'select' (just press enter), then 'install' should have fixed it
<drochaid> is it just "dselect" to run the app .. and is it intuitive for a noddy like me to use? ;)
<Chipaca> reinhard: hmm. anything we can do from here to speed that up?
<drochaid> okay, I'll try that .. ta Chipaca
<Chipaca> drochaid: hmm i skipped a couple of 'press psace to close the help screen'
<drochaid> heh
<reinhard> Chipaca: yes: test what's in cvs, look at the whitepaper, and tell us where you would put priorities
<reinhard> currently siesel, ICJ and me are working on appserver
<reinhard> not sure if it makes sense that more than 3 people code at this stage of the project
<reinhard> usually projects don't work when count(coders) > count(sourcefiles)
<reinhard> :)
<Chipaca> reinhard: drat. Ok :)
<drochaid> Chipaca: mmm, not a dselect fan ... aptitude has a cleaner, more intuitive interface
<Chipaca> drochaid: maybe. dselect is better at resolving complex depends/conflicts/provides/suggests/craps-on
<drochaid> but the feedback on what it's going to do is confusing
<Chipaca> drochaid: it's BSDish, even ]:)
<drochaid> I'm having a serious problem working out what it wants me to do when it shows the deps to the packages I want to install for example
Action: drochaid cries for aptitude
<drochaid> what twat broke the install :(
<Chipaca> drochaid: apt, aptitude et al break when they have A marked as installed, B to be installed, A and B depended on by C, and A conflicting wiht B.
<Chipaca> to mention one scenario :)
<Chipaca> dselect is smart enough to realize that there's also B++ that provides B and doesn't conflict with A
<drochaid> but my needs are relatively basic ... and aptitude has not let me down yet
<reinhard> l8r all
<drochaid> cya
<reinhard> sorry that i have to leave now
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<StyXman> hello
<dneighbo> Chipaca i dont think geas is your answer
<dneighbo> if the datasources dont do something you need let jamest or jcater know
<dneighbo> as GEAS is SUPPOSED to use the common data level
<dneighbo> which means datasources and such would be the same
<dneighbo> btw: your primary key issue
<dneighbo> there is a builtin method for this
<dneighbo> as well as trigger to support this
<dneighbo>       <trigger name="Trigger_2" type="Pre-Insert">
<dneighbo> blckPerson.autofillBySequence('ntryPK','seq_dcl_contact')
<dneighbo> </trigger>
<dneighbo> is an example (the trigger is in the <block></block> section)
<dneighbo> Pre-Insert is the tryigger type (i.e. this fires on 'insert')
<dneighbo> actually pre insert :)
<dneighbo> and 
<dneighbo> autofillBySequence is the method that gets the next sequence number
<dneighbo> ntryPK is the field to put it into
<dneighbo> normally a 'hidden' field
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> sql_dcl_contact is postgres sequence name
Action: dneighbo thinks you or StyXman asked about this the other day
<dneighbo> hopefully this makes sense
Action: dneighbo thinks they ran off in fear?
<drochaid> ok, dselect just warned me that what it wanted to do was potentially harmfull ... and that's soley from what *it* wants to do
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<drochaid> not impressed, dselect just farked my fresh build
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<Chipaca> drochaid: ouch. can I help?
Action: Chipaca notes the PAPO team was in a meeting
<StyXman> I'm trying to take off the maintoolbar. for that reason, I try to add a new 'widget', that would be the maintoolbar. 
<drochaid> Chipaca: I just need to learn how to use dselect and stop complaining about it ;)
<Chipaca> drochaid: heh
<drochaid> one question tho, I do have a prob on the dependancy screen ...
<Chipaca> drochaid: what?
<drochaid> it tells me just to press return to accept suggested deps ...
<StyXman> aha..
<drochaid> but if I do that, it just redisplays the help screen, then goes back to the dep screen
<StyXman> uh, chip would help you better than me...
<drochaid> I can't figure out how to actually install the deps .. it may have been me installing without deps that fuxored it [more than likely was!!]
<Chipaca> drochaid: there's something broken (as in in the pool)
<drochaid> :-(
<Chipaca> drochaid: meaning there is no way to fix the dependancy mess :(
<Chipaca> :( indeed
<drochaid> any idea what I should do? rebuild again and hope for the best
<drochaid> or is this a deb problem I just need to wait for them to fix?
<Chipaca> this is a deb problem, probably
<Chipaca> there usually is a way to avoid the 'wait for them to fix', but I can't tell you a general way to know how
<Chipaca> drochaid: if you need the update, I could give it a try
<drochaid> it's more I need a rock solid server by yesterday ... I need to get dcl and a couple of other things setup to handle a new client
<drochaid> I'll need to stick mandrake on for now, and just test deb on another box to find out when it's sorted
<Chipaca> drochaid: dcl isn't part of debian right now :(
<drochaid> I know
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<drochaid> it's just easier to get it and the other apps I need running on a minamilist deb build than any of the others I've tried
<Chipaca> drochaid: I repeat, maybe I can help?
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<Chipaca> ICJ: hi
<Chipaca> ICJ: could you do me a favour, read the logs of just now, and see if you agree with dneighbo? he left...
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<Chipaca> siesel!
Action: Chipaca is bothering the whole appserver crew today :)
<Chipaca> siesel: could you do me a favour, read the logs of just now, and see if you agree with dneighbo? he left...
<siesel> hi chipaca :)
<Chipaca> siesel: I mean about the fact that making things like views belongs in datasources and not in geas/appserver
<siesel> reading a log from the end to the begining is quite confusing...
<siesel> chipaca: there are quite different approaches for the appserver.
<Chipaca> siesel: sorry :/
<Chipaca> siesel: meaning?
<siesel> chipaca: I think that in a 3-tier environement the client=forms should as light as possible.
<Chipaca> siesel: I agree completely
<siesel> i.e. in 3-tier env. forms don't need views or something like that. views would live in the middleware = geasV2
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<siesel> if views could be added to the db abstraction layer in common, to make 2-tier support this too. would be great.
<Chipaca> siesel: agreed; well, s/great/ok/ :)
<Chipaca> nobody should be building 2-tier apps :)
<siesel> gnue will give you the choice. ;)
<Chipaca> siesel: that's ok with me, just as long as I don't have to write the view in the datasource for a 3-tier app
<siesel> you point it out. There will be a point where some features, f.e. views, transactions, locking... will be quite difficult to add to the db abstraction in common, and where its more praticable to move it up one layer.
<siesel> just because of programming issues.
<Chipaca> so, in other words, in a 3-tier app, i.e. with geas, all i have to do is define the 'view' or whatever and i'll be able to access it from the forms as if it were a table?
<siesel> yes.
<Chipaca> and this will work even if geas is using a db that doesn't support views?
<Chipaca> and the view will be defined in some xml format?
<siesel> should be. (but don't expect that feature for geas v.0.1 or 0.2)
<Chipaca> siesel: we're willing to make them happen :)
<Chipaca> i.e. code them ourselves
<siesel> there are many formats which are thought about. f.e. ODL 
<Chipaca> but it's your project, so it's your call as to how and where
<Chipaca> (that's a plural 'your')
Action: siesel has joined gnue just 3 month ago.
<Chipaca> siesel: ok, so you're 3 months ahead :)
<Chipaca> well, 2 actually
<siesel> hehe. And i've used them well.
<siesel> the actual issue with geas is that everyone has a different picture of the future appserver. It ranges from DataSource + Methods + RPC up to a full ODBMS.
<Chipaca> siesel: reinhard said we should be ablto to use appserver in one week. Any idea what parts of appserver?
<Chipaca> siesel: heh. AFAICT, it's jboss :)
<siesel> I'm not quite shure if he allready added any new code( since yesterday) but there will be a a working appserver which can handle multiple datasources over XMLRPC.
<siesel> It will have no locking support and will support only one global transaction. It will be not more than the database abstraction out of common to be accessed over RPC.
<Chipaca> siesel: could you expand 'multiple datasources'?
<Chipaca> siesel: I was looking at the sample that's in appserver right now, and it has a lot of hardcoded stuff in it...
Action: Chipaca shouldn't expect other people to follow more than one thread
<siesel> yes, the whole GObjDef stuff isn't implemented yet.
<siesel> but this doesn't matter, if you just use the DataSource over XMLRPC.
<Chipaca> siesel: GObjDef is the way we'll have to define views et al?
<siesel> if you want to see a working test which loads table->object definitions out of a db you have to look into appserver/src/_featuretest
<Chipaca> tks!
<Chipaca> jan is ICJ?
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<siesel> no jan=siesel=moi
<siesel> ICJ= Jens
<Chipaca> ah
<Chipaca> excellent!
<Chipaca> siesel: which is the 'create_tables.sql' you reference in the README?
<siesel> did I forgot to upload it? one moment..
<siesel> sorry. 
<siesel> its in cvs now.
<Chipaca> thanks
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<Chipaca> I'm probably doing something wrong; do I need anything different in my connections? (gnue is in there already)
<Chipaca> reinhard: hi
<siesel> hi reinhard
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<siesel> chipaca: which error do you get?
<Chipaca> after NewSession,
<Chipaca> [ backtrace ]
<Chipaca> DB000: AttributeError: _datasourceDictionary
<Chipaca> traceback I mean :)
<Chipaca> that's from /common/GDataSource.py
<reinhard> hi all
<Chipaca> in __getattr__
<siesel> ok, this is because of a change in common. one moment.
<Chipaca> siesel: meaning i've got to update, or you have to?
<siesel> I have to. common changed, so there was a code change it appserver/src/geasList.py which I will add to _featuretest. (a 3 sec. thing)
<Chipaca> great
<siesel> ok. 
<siesel> in cvs
<siesel> chipaca: if you want to have some fun, just change the function definitions in the database. ( they still have global scope i.e. os.exec("rm -R *") works) 
<Chipaca> siesel: heh
<siesel> I mean there is no os.exec in there but you could add it "for fun" ;)
Action: Chipaca doesn't know enough python to know how to not let that work
<siesel> there is a line "exec x in a,b" where a defines the global scope which should be replaced by the actual namespace.
Action: reinhard goes to bed finally
<reinhard> night all
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<gontran> lo gnuenterprise, it's a bang!
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<siesel> night
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<gontran> drochiad 
<gontran> er
<gontran> drochaid 
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<gontran> :)
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> hey gontran
<gontran> hey mang, how's it hanging?
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<Harald1> goodnight
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<gontran> D T M
<dtm> GON  TRAN    GON   TRAN     GON  TRAN
<dtm> you wily beast, you
Action: dtm makes a sales call
<gontran> here comes pastage
<gontran> http://www.theonion.com/onion3819/pope_forgives.html
Nick change: gontran -> ft_gontran
<ft_gontran> a brief summary, <ahem>
<ft_gontran> "The pope has shown great love and compassion, much as Jesus did when he ministered to tax collectors and whores," said Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston. "Despite all they have done to jeopardize the careers of so many priests--to say nothing of imperiling the priests' immortal souls--the church embraces these underaged seducers and tempters with open arms. The pope's words and actions prove that the church is willing to put an end to 
<ft_gontran> and finally (last one :)
<ft_gontran> By showing such willingness to forgive and forget, the pope has sent a clear message: Even though these boys have done much to undermine and subvert the priestly vows of celibacy, they are still deserving of God's love.
<dtm> ft_gontran: yay!
<ft_gontran> dtm.  i know.  what a relief <shighs>
<ft_gontran> that's shag + sigh
<dtm> @#*)
<dtm> FASCINATING
<ft_gontran> waiting to exhale
<ft_gontran> bbiab
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<ft_gontran> re
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<ft_gontran> brrr chillywilly what's up
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<chillywilly> hey ft_gontran
<ft_gontran> my words didn't taste very good when i had to eat them :)
<ft_gontran> after your code commits :)
<chillywilly> well I am not done
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> I have time3 tonight to hack some more
<chillywilly> s/time3/time
<ft_gontran> nice
<ft_gontran> i'm gearing up to leave my apt.  
<ft_gontran> in 10 days
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> and where are you going again?
<ft_gontran> don't know yet. :)
<ft_gontran> putting stuff in storage and f
<ft_gontran> driving around to find out
<ft_gontran> you know, adventure
<ft_gontran> but without the sandpeople
Nick change: ft_gontran -> ft_gontran|phone
<chillywilly> heh
Nick change: ft_gontran|phone -> ft_gontran
<ft_gontran> yeah, see the country and shit.  out of work currently, time for a migration.
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<ft_gontran> bbl
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<chillywilly> hey
<chillywilly> I have tot ake out the trash, brb
<crazymike> howdy
<crazymike> ok
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<chillywilly> you fgind a good game to play?
<chillywilly> er, find
<crazymike> no...I am still looking
<crazymike> I can't find those sites I went to before
<chillywilly> kazaa is non-free
<crazymike> is it???
<chillywilly> I'll have to go without
<crazymike> I could have sworn it was Kazaa that was free
<crazymike> oh well for you
<crazymike> you and your fucking morals or whatever
<chillywilly> http://www.http://www.kazaa.com/en/terms.htm
<chillywilly> you cannot sell it or redistribute it
<chillywilly> can't get the code either
<chillywilly> brb
<crazymike> would you sell it or redistribute it???
<crazymike> was that your plan???
<dtm> :)
<crazymike> :)
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<chillywilly> whatever
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<crazymike> whatever
<chillywilly> why are you getting all upset about it?
<chillywilly> it's not your fault
<crazymike> I am not getting upset about it
<crazymike> I am just picking on you
<crazymike> I could give a rats ass what you choose to install on your computer
<crazymike> just remember why I have AOTC
<dtm> crazymike: you have the ass of a rat?  is it just the ass or the whole rat?  :<
<chillywilly> big deal
<chillywilly> I saw it already ;)
<dtm> crazymike: or do you just contract the rat ass donation upon request
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<eugene_beast> hello all
<ajmitch> hi
<crazymike> ok
<crazymike> bitchass
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<crazymike> :)
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<chillywilly> dork
<eugene_beast> is there somebody from geas team?
<eugene_beast> i have a question about orbit-python programming...
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<chillywilly> I don't know much about orbit-python
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<chillywilly> eugene_beast: look here: gnue/geas/examples/python
<chillywilly> if you have cvs
<chillywilly> seems to be pretty grokkable
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<eugene_beast> chillywilly: interested in working with CORBA NameService (CosNaming)
<chillywilly> ummm, I haven't really fully grokked corba mysel...I mean I get the jist of it but certain terminology is foreign to me
<chillywilly> I ahve the spec, but I haven't read it yet
<eugene_beast> chillywilly: wich spec?
<eugene_beast> chillywilly: don't you know where orbit-python channel is? #orbit-python on openprojects.net is empty...
<chillywilly> the CORBA spec
<chillywilly> no, I don't
<chillywilly> sorry
<chillywilly> try their mailing list
<eugene_beast> chillywilly: it's looks like the project (o-p i meant) is dead. no activity.
<chillywilly> yea, that might be the case...
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--- Fri May 24 2002