[00:02] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> nickr: hello long time no talk, you work too much now :)
<dneighbo> and that just starts this nasty cycle...
<dneighbo> work = pay
<dneighbo> pay = eating
<dneighbo> eating = energy
<dneighbo> energy = getting alife
<dneighbo> you see its really an abuse cycle
<dneighbo> you should stop
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<S11001001> hey OxD00FD00F
<OxD00FD00F> howdy
<ajmitch> yo 
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<S11001001> hey, what do you think of compiere ;)
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<dneighbo> who me?
<S11001001> any1
<dneighbo> i have never used it so i couldnt say
<dneighbo> i can say i dont care for MPL much
<dneighbo> and that requiring non free tools for a free software project seems well
<dneighbo> silly
<S11001001> yep, that's what I said too
<S11001001> well, I have had just about enough silliness for today
<S11001001> goodnight, happy hacking
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<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> hi
<stbain> ok
<dtm> psu: hey i just read your list of questions to ask potential GNUe customers.  very nice.
<dtm> psu: derek posted the url in here
<psu> Just a bit of fun ;-)
<stbain> I have a quick question regarding the Compiere discussion on the mailing list
<dneighbo> ok
<stbain> somehow I know that would wake dneighbo up
<stbain> hhe
<dneighbo> actually i just came in from watching The Tonight Show
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<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<stbain> before I ask, I'm assuming the Compiere package is ready for production use and has all of the accounting, HR, sales, CRM, etc. packages that we one day hope to have
<stbain> my question is: why don't we take that code, convert it, refine it, and implement it in the GNUe project?
Action: dneighbo fears that now people will think i am anti compiere and hate them or something, when nothing could be farther from the church
<dneighbo> er truth
<psu> ISTR it's Financials only at moment, but could be wrong
<stbain> exactly
<dneighbo> too many conversations at one time. :)
<dneighbo> stbain: not sure
<dneighbo> i think its financials and CRM
<dneighbo> but probably has invoicing and such
<reinhard> morning ajmitch and all
<stbain> I don't think we should be anti-compiere
<dneighbo> i am not
<stbain> I know you're not
<dneighbo> i am anti proprietary software
<stbain> exactly
<stbain> I read that ;)
Action: stbain looks around for Todd
<stbain> ok...
<dneighbo> i.e. my gripe was not with compiere but rather their choice of tools :)
<stbain> right
<dneighbo> also, i get real irked when there is a cross post to like 15 lists
<stbain> so let's take a look at how they're doing things under the hood
<dneighbo> that basically says GNUe is shit drop everything and use product X
<stbain> perhaps we can use it as a springboard to actually get some packages underway
<stbain> I mean...
<stbain> I've been following development on the GNUe project for a while now
<dneighbo> stbain: we were going to do that, but install java and oracle is just a pure bitch under linux :(
<psu> Also 
<dneighbo> jcater runs oracle in production so we thought we could peek easily
<stbain> and now that I'm an independent consultant, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to walk into a potential customer (like I did today) and say "Don't buy Great Plains... I have something better and less expensive"
<dneighbo> but they need the LATEST like up to the last revision of oracle to play
<dneighbo> remember Todd also touted sql*ledger to no end
<psu> as I read the MPL, if we use any of their code (or arguably even their "ideas")
<stbain> actually, I do remember that
<dneighbo> well we installed sql*ledger and were going to put a front end on it
<psu> that means they own the code not us
<dneighbo> and its schema and guts are (psu no KC this)
<psu> s/us/"the community"
<dneighbo> are crap
<stbain> yeah, psu... no KC
<dneighbo> we had somewhere we were going to put it in production
<stbain> ifn's yah don't mind
<dneighbo> and couldnt because it was so scary
<dneighbo> schema, code and rules
<dneighbo> we have found nola to be interesting
<dneighbo> we dont like much of what they have done
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> the schema is decent
<stbain> the roots of the GNUe project are 6 years old now
<dneighbo> sometimes i wish irc were not logged
<stbain> but we don't have a base accounting package yet, correct?
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<psu> I think dneighbo's refrain since I've been here has been "we need apps"
<psu> actually, what we really need is f/t programmers
<psu> not just the odd one like Arturas but a critical mass
<psu> like the papo guys
<psu> which in turn implies
<psu> either a benefactor or someone willing to take a serious punt on us
<psu> We have to break out of the "M$Access replacement" tag
<psu> to serious, multi-user, enterprise systems
<psu> (not necess Financials)
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> what you need is one useful app
<Isomer> and let it grow from there
<psu> which are GPL
<Isomer> of course
<ajmitch> hello Isomer
<psu> hi Isomer
<Isomer> there is software that isn't GPL'd? :)
<Isomer> G'evenin' Everybody :)
<psu> Isomer: yep, GNUe works with non-GPL s/w all the time
<psu> like mySQL, postgres 
<psu> oh, and other things best not mentioned
<stbain> [02:16] <psu> We have to break out of the "M$Access replacement" tag
<stbain> how about a Great Plains replacement?
<Isomer> hmm
<stbain> that's what I'm looking for right now
<Isomer> has GNUe managed similar level of functionality to MSAccess?
<psu> If I was doing a GNUe presentation, my start line would be 
<psu> "Most free s/w projects are out to replace Microsoft. We're much less ambitious
<Isomer> we only want the world
<Isomer> ?
<psu> "We just want to replace Oracle, SAP, Baan, JD Edwards and Peoplesoft"
<Isomer> heh
<dneighbo> psu: isnt that about equal in net worth
<psu> oh, and Great Plains while we're at it ;-)
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> thats redundant
<dneighbo> greatplains == microsoft no?
<stbain> yes
<stbain> Microsoft bought out Great Plains
<psu> s/replace/provide a free alternative
<stbain> a year or two ago
<stbain> psu: naa... you had it right the first time
<dneighbo> i saw an intersesting magazine cover on the way to the head at work today
<dneighbo> let me see if there is online version
<dneighbo> http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020517S0043
<dneighbo> that the article 
<dneighbo> let me see if i can get a cover photo
<dneighbo> what i love is im ahead of bill gates :)
<dneighbo> i have been saying for past 4 years ERP is not dead
<dneighbo> its ripe in the SME and mid level markets and free software can snatch the prize if we hurry cause no one is there yet
<dneighbo> so while it sucks m$ wants to compete there for us, its great validation
<psu> for prop s/w, if M$ suddenly turns attention to your market, it's time to cash in the share options
<psu> for free s/w, GNU/Linux has already proved that the dragon may not be slayable 
<dneighbo> you bet
<psu> but you can nip his ankles with impunity
<psu> and sometimes give him a bloody nose
<psu> </over_extended_metaphor>
Action: dneighbo can envision psu slapping m$ dragon over the muzzle with a nice fat roll of irc logs, torting "bad dragon, go back to sleep"
<psu> The other IT metaphor is "the 800 pound gorilla" ;-)
<reinhard> psu: what are f/t programmers?
<dneighbo> full time
<dneighbo> i assume
<dneighbo> psu: im fat and hairy, but need you resort to calling me names?
<reinhard> ah thanks
<psu> "Yahoo is the 800-pound gorilla of portals"
<psu> As The Hobbit proved, dragons are vulnerable when they don't pay attention to you
<psu> or if you can keep them amused
<psu> ;-)
<stbain> when in the presence of a dragon and a halfling
<stbain> you do not have to outrun the Dragon... you just have to outrun the halfling.
<psu> heh
Action: reinhard doesn't remember the part when a hobbit met a dragon
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<stbain> http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/apparel/3814.shtml
<reinhard> lol to psu's quit message
<dneighbo> reinhard: i have a stupid question
<dneighbo> in austria when they show films like spiderman and Star Wars are the in english with german subtitles or german with english subtitles, just german orjust english?
Action: dneighbo has an inquiring mind today
<reinhard> just german
<reinhard> except you go into a special cinema because you want to learn english
<dneighbo> so there are 'english' cinemas so to speak
<reinhard> some english teachers go to cinema w/ their pupils to watch english films
<dtm> i dont understand how peopel claim to learn languages from watching tv
<dtm> there's no context of vocabulary or pronunciation
<reinhard> not purely english cinemas
<stbain> my friend learned most of his english from IRC
<dtm> i knwo a guy who claimed to have learned 7 languages from tv
<dneighbo> dtm: we had an iceland exchange student before and its amazing how much he picked up from tv/movies
<reinhard> 90% of the cinemas only show movies in german
<dtm> stbain: how?  :)
<reinhard> 10% show germand and english versions
<dtm> so how little can a person learn from a book or tape or class, before you can learn from mass media?
<stbain> he knew enough to get started, the rest he relied on babelfish.altavista.com to translate for him
<dneighbo> generally you can tell someone who has learned by more then classroom (tv, movie, friends etc) because they understand the idioms and such
<reinhard> i learnd a lot of czech from watching dolly buster movies
<reinhard> j/k
<dneighbo> i dont know if that was the case with reinhard or not, but that was what most amazed me with his english
<stbain> he lives in Quebec City, so he spoke french and a little english. Once he joined my Quake clan he started learning english at a very rapid pace
<dneighbo> a. he could keep up with irc conversations
<dneighbo> b. he didnt have to ask what the hell is that? very often
<dneighbo> i do remember at one time he was concerned that we all had drug habits
<dneighbo> cause of all the 'crack smoking' and i htink someone posted the http://www.virtualcrack.com url
<stbain> plus he's a programmer (COBOL) so even though he uses french variable names, he has to know his way around the rest of the system in English
<dneighbo> irc has to be great for learning oddities of english (at least in the channel) 
<dneighbo> but it has to suck deciphering
<dneighbo> wtf, rofl, brb, etc etc 
<stbain> stfu iirc imho
<dtm> afaik lol yhbt. yhl. hand.
<stbain> ianal
<dtm> ianap
<dtm> ;)
<dneighbo> i dont think you are all that anal, but you know you better than i
<dneighbo> ;)
<stbain> hehe
<stbain> well gents
<stbain> past my bedtime
<dtm> stbain: l8r
<stbain> dneighbo: thnx for the info
Action: dneighbo too
<stbain> I'll check around tommorrow, perhaps jason will be around
Action: dtm tooo
Action: dneighbo saunters off to limbo
Nick change: stbain -> stbain|zzzzz
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<btami> hello
<reinhard> hello btami
<btami> hello reinhard
<ajmitch> hi
<btami> hi ajmitch
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<btami> reinhard: help!
<reinhard> wasssup?
<btami> i can't test appserver
<btami> got errors
<btami> tried gfcvs appservertest.gfd
<reinhard> sorry brb in 5 min
<btami> ok
<reinhard> back
<btami> first a stupid question
<btami> can i use firebird or just postgresql?
<reinhard> you should be able to use firebird
<reinhard> however the sql script to load the inital test data into the database does only exist for postgres
<btami> how appserver knows wich db i use
<btami> i don't understand these things jet
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i assume you run cvs version
<reinhard> erm of course you do because appserver isn't released yet :)
<reinhard> and you have run setup-cvs
<reinhard> then you should have a ~/gnue/etc/connections.conf
<btami> yes 
<btami> it has en entry from README.databases
<btami> provider=appserver etc.
<btami> i'm in appserver/samples 
<btami> and run: gfcvs appservertest.py
<btami> a login screen comes up
<btami> i enter something
<btami> and get error:
<reinhard> for the appserver test you have to enter a [gnue] section there
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> give me the error
<reinhard> :)
<btami> error from source <localhost:8765, fd, -1>:
<btami> Unable to connect toXML-RPC server at 'http://localhost:8765/'
<btami> (connection is refused)
<btami> please check if server is running
<btami> ****************
<btami> ?
<reinhard> ok
<btami> how appserver knows wich dbms i want to use?
<reinhard> you have some time in say 1 or 2 hours?
<reinhard> i want to explain the things to you correctly
<btami> yes
<reinhard> but i a about to be called for lunch
<reinhard> so when i get back from lunch i have time for you :)
<reinhard> ok?
<btami> ok, i will swim, lunch too :)
Action: btami is away: swimming
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<ajmitch> yo siesel
<siesel> yo ajmitch, yo all
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<siesel> btami: I've read the log. 1. You have to startup appserver first. 2. Test if it works with "gtestcvs" (you have to choose option 3:  GNU Application Server RPC demo client) 3. test out appserver with forms
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<siesel> l8r
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<alga> hi
<alga> it seems we're going to use GNUe forms for a real project
<ajmitch> cools
<ajmitch> hi alga
<alga> I played around with them a bit
<ajmitch> madainn mhath drochaid
<alga> the main shortcoming I saw is the absence of list widget for related (child) records
<alga> is there a good reason for not having one? :)
<drochaid> madainn mhath ajmitch
<drochaid> ciamar a tha thu?
Action: ajmitch falls flat
<ajmitch> alga: dunno, you'd need to hassle forms people :)
<alga> who would that be?
<ajmitch> jcater
<ajmitch> perhaps jamest
<alga> are the mailing lists a right way to reach tnem?
<ajmitch> and dneighbo
<ajmitch> yeah
<alga> thanks
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Action: Yurik is trying to avoid hungover
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<lupo_> hi there
<reinhard> hey lupo
Action: lupo_ == sledge_
<reinhard> i know
<lupo_> i know that you know, it's just for the others :)
<reinhard> tell my regards to oma eusebia
<reinhard> ;)
<lupo_> :)
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<lupo_> a couple of days ago, someone asked for graph output in Reports
<lupo_> and i'm searching the web for "raw data"->"graph" progs
<lupo_> what are the current output formats of reports?
<lupo_> hello?
Action: btami is back (gone 01:42:22)
<l-fy> ???
<lupo_> hi btami
<btami> hi lupo_
<l-fy> what you guys belive about having a adress book in gnu entrprise for gnome meeting
<l-fy> and look for someone and just call?
<lupo_> you mean, an adress book as a gnu enterprise application OR a gnome meeting adress book with all the gnu enterprise developers?
<l-fy> an adress book as a gnu enterprise application
<lupo_> if someone wants to develop that, gnue can do that job. the only question is the interface with gnomeMeeting
<l-fy> why?
<l-fy> you just open gnomemeeting with some parameters
<lupo_> aha
<lupo_> so these parameters would have to be fetched from gnue
<l-fy> yeap
<l-fy> i supose is easy 
<l-fy> to make this from an existing adress book
<lupo_> don't you think gnue might be a bit too much?
<lupo_> if you have an sql database
<btami> reinhard ?
<lupo_> you could query that from the command line with normal tools and pass the results to gnomemeeting
<l-fy> lupo_ > i know it is more
<Remosi> data -> graph == gnuplot!
<lupo_> or do you want an adress book application which can call gnomemeeting? then gnue will be quite nice, provided that gnue can call gnomemeeting through a trigger (system()???)
<l-fy> i see, thx
<lupo_> Remosi: gnuplot doesn't speak svg :-/
<Remosi> it does speak png
<lupo_> that's a starting point :)
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<btami> hi siesel !
<Remosi> although you're right, it would be nice if it output something vector like
<lupo_> yep
<siesel> hi btami, hi all
<lupo_> hi siesel. how's ikea doing? :)
<alga> i thought gnuplot did give something vector-like
<btami> siesel: 1. i started appserver, OK 
<lupo_> gnuplot can output eps
<btami> siesel: but 2. gtestcvs option 3. fails
<siesel> btami: have you tested RPC server/client with gtestcvs?
<btami> i want to, but fails :)
<siesel> :(
<siesel> hmmm
<btami> it says the connections file doesn't contain a definition for "gnue"
<btami> but it has
<siesel> you have started gtestcvs option 1 and then on another terminal gtestcvs option 0 then 1
<siesel> for appserver you have to add an entry [gnue] to your connections.conf
<reinhard> sorry was on phone
<siesel> _lupo: ikea is great, but my car is too small for the furniture ;)
<reinhard> and am again :((
<siesel> btami: pass a --connections option to gacvs
<btami> wait a minute please
<solibre> Hi! I see you are talking about using SVG for Report. Maybe Batik from Apache.org can do the trick ?
<lupo_> i think it's written in Java
<lupo_> but after looking into gnuplot, i have seen a post that claim that plotutils can do that
<solibre> It is. Maybe they'll issue a C version as for Xalan. 
<btami> siesel: appserver is up and running
<btami> siesel: but gtestcvs 0) then 1) fails
<btami> xmlrpc.error: unknown command: 'DonutPlace.Management.Status'
<lupo_> http://www.fsf.org/software/plotutils/plotutils.html sounds nice
<siesel> you have to kill appserver and then use the RPC testserver (gtestcvs 1)
<lupo_> We have dumped any Java activity at our company
<btami> ok, trying
<lupo_> hey, plotutils has a python interface
<lupo_> wait, it has *two*
<solibre> Yes, I see there is no problem for SVG with libplot. Good news !
<btami> siesel: success !!!
<btami> now trying appservertest.gfd
<lupo_> okay, now hopefully psu will propagate that in the next KT, so that everyone can read that :)
<reinhard> back
<lupo_> http://biggles.sourceforge.net/libplot/ is the URL for a python libplot interface
<lupo_> and it looks quite human
<siesel> reinhard: we need a appserver.conf file soon. I will add some command line options as a first step 
<solibre> Talking about report, I can't get it run (I tried sample/locations and get an ImportError: No module named adapters.destinations.file.stdout
<btami> siesel/reinhard: it's time to explain to me how appserver knows wich dbms i want to use
<siesel> btami: there is a setting in geasList.py
<siesel> but there will be a command line option soon.
<lupo_> solibre: can't trace that, the machine on which i'm currently working doesn't have pysablot :(
<siesel> if you want to use firebird you have to setup password user settings too. (geasRpcServer.testLoginHandler)
<btami> huh, this piece was the missing from my puzzle
<btami> thanks
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<solibre> lupo_ : you mean the problem would come from pysablot ? 
<btami> siesel: by the way, LOGNAME environ variable doesn't exist in win32
<btami> this was my first error yesterday on win2k :)
<siesel> what was you second error? ;)
<lupo_> solibre: no, i mean i can't check where your problem is because reports doesn't run on my machine :)
<solibre> OK, I go on searching. If I find I let you know
<btami> siesel: hadn't started appserver first :)
<siesel> reinhard: I know it's bad practice, but what's about adding user password command options?
<btami> siesel: it's not evident for a beginner
<siesel> btami: you mean command options?
<lupo_> solibre: okay
<btami> siesel: no, starting appserver first :)
Action: siesel Siesel has to fix the INSTALL file
<btami> siesel: thanks for README.databases fixing, but
<btami> there are many 'bugs' in it
<btami> can you help to fix anothers?
<btami> i list what i find:
<btami> 1. MySQL has introspection
<btami> 2. SAP-DB too
<btami> 3. SAP-DB has win32 binaries
<btami> 4. interbase version is 6.x, not 7
<btami> 5. interbase provider is interbase, not informix
<btami> and all informix=interbase in the interbase section
<btami>  and kinfxdb=kinterbasdb
<btami> 6. interbasdb is tested in win2k,debian
<btami> 7. pyrgesql description: section is outdated 
<siesel> debian 2.2 ? 
<btami>    about DB-API 2.0 spec support
<btami> woody
<btami> thats all:)
<siesel> what is outdated in the pyresql description? Should it totaly be deleted?
<btami> siesel: sorry, but can't find the setting in geasList.py you mentioned
<btami> yes, i think
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<siesel> btami: load the newest version from cvs, there is no setting in geasList anymore but an command line option for gacvs.
<btami> it is DB-API 2.0 compliant now IIRC
<btami> wow
<btami> you are quicker than jcater :)
<btami> huh, it's time to pick up kids and go home
<btami> tomorrow
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<lupo_> bye
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<solibre> Can someone give me some help about Report. I have some trouble installing it. There is a problem with file GRServices.py at installation
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<siesel> hi jamest.
<jamest> hi
<siesel> jamest: what do you think: does appserver needs a special configuration file or should it use gnue.conf?
<reinhard> siesel: sorry for dropping in even if not asked
<reinhard> (sometimes i feel like i'm derek)
<reinhard> j/k
<siesel> :)
<reinhard> we have to take into consideration that on most installs that use appserver
<reinhard> forms/reports will run on different machine than appserver
<siesel> I should have asked: reinhard, jamest, jcater, .....
<reinhard> so i would think it makes sense for appserver to have own config file
<siesel> where should we add this point into the roadmap? v 0.0.2 ?
<reinhard> agree
<reinhard> two minor nitpickings
<reinhard> in INSTALL could you please not say [geasv2] but for example [appserver]?
<reinhard> and would you think it made sense to insert that section in the sample connections.conf that ships with common?
<siesel> another question: I 'm not quite happy with the appserver/INSTALL file in its current state. Whats about adding a SETUP, TESTING file or should it be in the appserver/doc/appserver_user_manual ?
<siesel> nitpickings are picking quite nit. I change both ;)
<reinhard> re INSTALL
<reinhard> i think it's ok to have instructions for basic tests in INSTALL
<reinhard> for example say 1. setup.py 2. run test.py 3. run geasRpcServer.py and geasRpcClient.py
<reinhard> just as a part of the install procedure to see if the install was successful
<reinhard> anything further should go into doc/manual IMHO
<reinhard> plus i could imagine having an own INSTALL.cvs file
<reinhard> that is not distributed in releases
<reinhard> and explains the g*cvs commands
<siesel> ok. whats about a FAQ like in forms
<siesel> forms/INSTALL has a large FAQ section at the end of INSTALL
<reinhard> siesel: you aware that you're begging for work? :)
<reinhard> maybe FAQ could be a file of it's own
<reinhard> or maybe not
<reinhard> becase there may be FAQ's about installing
<reinhard> FAQ's about features
<siesel> Seems to be. :( I just don't want to hear any: appserver doesn't work appserver doesn't work anymore
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<dneighbo> reinhard: please make the sql script to load the initial test data as xml under our data definition markup and then it would support more than postgresql :)
<reinhard> oh didn't know there exists such a thing
<reinhard> where can i find description of that format and what program do i need to load the data into the database?
<dneighbo> alga seems to have left sigh
<reinhard> is it part of common?
<dneighbo> l-fy: im making a CRM application right now
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<dneighbo> reinhard: its not fully documented and i dont remember if its in GNUe cvs
<dneighbo> as we started it for DCL and adopted it
Action: dneighbo thinks i put in our cvs
<dneighbo> basically you need pysablot and sabolotron
<reinhard> oh
<dneighbo> then you use a little python app to convert from xml to the create script for the db of your choice
<dneighbo> and then run that script as you normally would
<dneighbo> basically this way you only have to write the table definitions 1 time (in xml)
<reinhard> can you also fill data into the table with that?
<dneighbo> and the create scripts for all the dbs are created automagically for you 
Action: dneighbo scratches head
<dneighbo> i believe yes
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> sounds like a good thing
<reinhard> we could distribute the generated scripts in a release
<reinhard> so one wouldn't need sablotron to test appserver release
<dneighbo> the pyslt script is in common/scripts/
<dneighbo> but none of the .xsl sheets are there will have to prep tonight
<dneighbo> reinhard: exactly
<dneighbo> in dcl we even put them in cvs
<reinhard> dneighbo: thanks for the info
<dneighbo> the generated files
<reinhard> yeah i think we would do that too
<dneighbo> must run
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<nickr_> no! come back!
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<l-fy> nu va luatzi legaturi la rds
<l-fy> sorry
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<reinhard> off for long weekend
<reinhard> bye all
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<aprono> anybody know, How do i correct the follow error?
<aprono> Gdk-ERROR **: BadWindow (invalid Window parameter)
<aprono>   serial 3041 error_code 3 request_code 15 minor_code 0
<jamest> starting forms?
<jamest> try starting it with a -s to disable the splashscreen
<aprono> yes
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<aprono> ok, thanks
<jamest> there is a gnue.conf option to disable it altogether
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<ToyMan> hey, dneighbo
<nickr> dneighbo: hey hey
<dneighbo> you
<dneighbo> er yo
<dneighbo> even
<ToyMan> so, dneighbo
<ToyMan> 2 things
<ToyMan> I'm *definitely* ready for that transfer
<ToyMan> and I've been working on a ecommerce project for zope that you folks might be interested in
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> i hope to get win4lin installed anyday
<dneighbo> life has been brutal :(
<dneighbo> as soon as i have that installed we should be ready to run
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<ToyMan> great
<ToyMan> ecomm for zzope has sucked so far
<ToyMan> so i'm funding a GPL'd ecomm tool that runs in zope/cmf
<dneighbo> cool
<ToyMan> should be ready to show code in a week or two
<ToyMan> and since I *still* want to move internal accnt/inv to GnuE
<ToyMan> I'd like them to talk nicely
<ToyMan> and since it's GPL, maybe you guys could agree on an interface for exchanging data
<dneighbo> we could probably do that
<dneighbo> is it a public project
<dneighbo> i mean with cvs and such we could download and play with it?
<dneighbo> if you are funding it maybe you would just like to make it part of gnue
<ToyMan> well, there's a *terse* description @ http://plone.org/documentation/CommerceTool
<ToyMan> that's in wiki form
<ToyMan> and yes, there is a cvs, but we're not opening it for another week or so..
<ToyMan> so the beta code will be laid down
<ToyMan> too many cooks....
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<dneighbo> sigh an php studs here
<dneighbo> can someone tell me why if gd is showing up in phpinfo(); as enabled
<dneighbo> and its compiled in
<dneighbo> yet extension_loaded('gd') fails
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<siesel> dneighbo: do you use php on unix or on windows?
<dneighbo> linux
<dneighbo> i just by passed the check and the other code fails so i think it really things gd isnt there even though phpinfo says it is
<dneighbo> would ;extension_dir = /usr/lib/php4/apache   ; directory in which the loadable extensions (modules) reside
<dneighbo> make a difference in the php.ini file?
<siesel> have you tried an dl('gd.so') ?
<dneighbo> ; Local Variables:
<dneighbo> ; tab-width: 4
<dneighbo> ; End:
<dneighbo> extension=mysql.so
<dneighbo> extension=pgsql.so
<dneighbo> extension=gd.so
<dneighbo> is odd
<dneighbo> as its libgd.so
<dneighbo> ash:/usr/share# locate gd.so
<dneighbo> ash:/usr/share# 
<dneighbo> grr
<dneighbo>  /usr/lib/libgd.so
<siesel> on debian its: /usr/lib/php4/20020429/gd.so
<dneighbo> ash:/usr/share# ls /usr/lib/php4/20010901/
<dneighbo> gd.so  mysql.so  pgsql.so
<dneighbo> ash:/usr/share# 
<dneighbo> yeah its there
<dneighbo> what does dl('gd.so') do?
<siesel> it loads gd.so dynamicly.
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<siesel> btw. have you tested extension_loaded('gd.so') ?
<dneighbo> yes that fails
<dneighbo> that is where the problem surfaced :)
<dneighbo> in dcl there is some graphing
<dneighbo> figured hey want to use it
<dneighbo> so apt-get install php4-gd
<dneighbo> restart apache and voila gd shows up properly in phpinfo
<dneighbo> run dcl and it says gd not installed
<dneighbo> look at the code its doing an extension_loaded('gd')
<dneighbo> oh
<dneighbo> gd.so
<dneighbo> and fails
<dneighbo> so i by pass that altogether and force it to run the code but it does nothing
<siesel> hmmm
<dneighbo> i think maybe the graphing for dcl is hosed
<dneighbo> as if i do a
<siesel> it has to be extension_loaded('gd') and no extension_loaded('gd.so')
<dneighbo> dl('gd.so') before the check
<dneighbo> then the check passes but still no graph
Action: dneighbo will have to look into it another day
<dneighbo> also im curious as to why gd isnt loaded and a dl('gd.so') is required
<dneighbo> darned goats
<siesel> did you add an extension=gd.so to php.ini?
<siesel> btw. is there a debian package of dcl?
<dneighbo> siesel its outdated i think and broked (dcl package)
<dneighbo> debianconf added the extension=gd.so and i verified it was there
<dneighbo> just upgraded to php4-gd2
<dneighbo> and still same issue
Action: dneighbo cant spend more time on it right this second :(
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<StyXman> hello poeople.
<StyXman> jamest: you hear?
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<reinhard> still some time left till the train leaves
<siesel> dneighbo: btw. I've had a look on ash. there is no gd module loaded in phpinfo. phpinfo should show a whole section for gd....  
<siesel> reinhard: Wish you a nice holiday! :)
<siesel> dneighbo: when I found a fix for that problem I tell you, then you can try later.
<reinhard> siesel: thanks
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<siesel> dneighbo: just an idea: add an newline after the extensions=gd.so line.
Action: siesel leaves php extension problems alone.
<dneighbo> siesel there is a whole section on gd
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/fred.php
<dneighbo> gd
<dneighbo> GD Support enabled
<dneighbo> GD Version 2.0 or higher
<dneighbo> FreeType Support enabled
<dneighbo> FreeType Linkage with freetype
<dneighbo> T1Lib Support enabled
<dneighbo> JPG Support enabled
<dneighbo> PNG Support enabled
<dneighbo> WBMP Support enabled
<StyXman> jcater?
<reinhard> oh it's so good to read cbbrowne's mails
<reinhard> as i _highly_ respect his opinions and he seems to tell us GNUe is 100% on the right track :)
<dneighbo> yes i liked his response very much
<dneighbo> it was almost identical to what i said :)
<dneighbo> only he was able to say it objectively not being a GNUe developer
<dneighbo> and was less emotional
<dneighbo> siesel i added a blank line after extensions=gd.so
<dneighbo> and restarted apache and get same thing
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<siesel> dneighbo: try: https://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/phpinfo.php: it doesnt show the gd section 
<StyXman> chip.
<Chipaca> StyXman: yo
<dneighbo> hmmm i wonder if this is an https: issue
<jamest> that's a seperate server on ash IIRC
Action: siesel is confused. 
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> separate server?
<jamest> yip
<dneighbo> so we have two servers?
<jamest> debian packages two servers apache and apache-ssl
<jamest> i normally take the time to just blend everything into apache-ssl
<siesel> but there is only one php.ini
<jamest> but on ash I didn't 
<jamest> i think you'll update it all by doing
<jamest> /etc/init.d/apache-ssl restart
<dneighbo> siesel : yeah but i have only been restarting APACHE
<dneighbo> not apache-ssl :)
<dneighbo> as i didnt realize
<dneighbo> jamest: i think this is nothing but just in case
<dneighbo> Reloading apache-ssl modules[Wed May 29 13:38:03 2002] [warn] module cgi_module is already loaded, skipping
<dneighbo> [Wed May 29 13:38:03 2002] [alert] apache-ssl: Could not determine the server's fully qualified domain name, using 127.0.0.1 for ServerName
<dneighbo> Reading key for server 127.0.0.1:443
<dneighbo> Launching... /usr/lib/apache-ssl/gcache
<dneighbo> pid=6448
<dneighbo> .
<dneighbo> ash:/home/dneighbo# 
<jamest> well
<jamest> honestly
<jamest> i didn't think anyone used https on ash
<dneighbo> siesel can you see if now gd is there for you
<jamest> so I don't think I ever made sure everything was properly done
<dneighbo> jamest: dcl makes it mandatory
<StyXman> jamest: you alive!
<dneighbo> er jcater made dcl automatically use ssl version
<dneighbo> yummy graphing in dcl now works :)
<dneighbo> jamest you are my hero :)
<reinhard> dneighbo: if you have a minute can you please check if we have assignment for johannes vetter (person) and for bytewise (company)?
<Chipaca> is objectserver empty for a reason?
<reinhard> Chipaca: yes
<reinhard> Chipaca: that was a very old version of geas
<Chipaca> oh
<reinhard> actually appserver is the 3rd try, not the 2nd, but not many people know that :)
<Chipaca> ok
<dneighbo> we do have for johannes
<reinhard> cool
<dneighbo> no one can find rms to get him to ink the bytewise assignment
<dneighbo> but they do have it :)
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> thanks a lot
<reinhard> to get cvs access he has to register at savannah, right?
<siesel> yes
<dneighbo> I keep expecting RMS to come back to Cambridge long enough to sign
<dneighbo> documents, but that keeps not happening.  He has been on the East
<dneighbo> Coast for quite some time, but hasn't made it back up to Massachusetts.
<dneighbo> I get the impression that he picked up a batch of papers, or had
<dneighbo> someone bring them to him (he is presently in the Washington, DC
<dneighbo> area).  So, he may have actually signed the Bytewise assignment.
<dneighbo> You could try asking him.
<dneighbo> correct
<nickr> zoot allours
Action: dneighbo likes when dcl works like that :)
<reinhard> thanks alot
<dneighbo> reinhard i just happened to clean out my dcl queue last night and so wsa closing the tickets for the assignments and noticed i didnt get official word on bytewise so mailed brian the above was his response to status, now if only i could get them to use dcl for the process :)
Action: reinhard makes note to self: _really_ look at dcl someday :)
<dneighbo> i think once we get in swing of things with dcl and add some functionality
<dneighbo> it will be REALLY powerful for us as a development group
<siesel> dneighbo: now your doing dcl stuff: two issues: 1. the ssl certificate is outdated (or is this a apache-ssl problem?) 2. is there any possibility to use a larger font for dcl?
<siesel> bbl
<dneighbo> siesel : use gaelon it will let you size font to whatever you want :)
<dneighbo> ask jcater or jamest re: ssl cert
<StyXman> jamest: coward! don't run away from me! :)
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> darned gringo's never up to a good fight
<StyXman> guess so...
<Chipaca> is phpforms working?
<aprono> Chipaca: it's a good question!
<Chipaca> Ok, so I'll change it to "it isn't working for me"
<Chipaca> Where is DB.php?
<Chipaca> (answer: php4-pear
<Chipaca> )
<dneighbo> i dont care what StyXman says about you Chipaca you arent half bad
<siesel> chipaca: phpforms is working.
<siesel> I can go through a installation with you in 3-4 hours. 
Action: siesel is busy now.
<siesel> l8r
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<StyXman> dneighbo: depends of which half you're talking about...
<StyXman> brb.
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<StyXman> *I* *reached* the *darn* wxFrame.
<StyXman> *yes!*
<StyXman> *oh, yes!*
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<Chipaca> OK, now images on the buttons. And font :)
Action: Chipaca has no problems with being regarded as a heathen
<jcater> ?
<reinhard> bye all
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<StyXman> *I* got the *toolbar*!
<StyXman> I'm the man!
<StyXman> ok, I removed and implemented things to optionally add the MainToolBar.
<StyXman> ...and gotta go, but soon I'l ask you something related to it.
<jamest> :)
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<StyXman> ok, now I can really play with the mtb (and coming soon, customTB). tell me what you think of it and suggestions.
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<StyXman> ok, I'm back.
<StyXman> first:  the GFMainToolBar is defined in 
<StyXman> forms/src/GFForm.py
<StyXman> should I move it to a formsr/src/GFObjects file?
<StyXman> (I don't know why GFForm is in forms/src and widgets in forms/src/GFForms...)
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<sledge_> hiho
<StyXman> hi
<sledge_> whadda day
<sledge_> it's a stupid day to run a mailing list server on a dialup machine
<sledge_> s/day/idea/
<StyXman> sledge_: you have any inherence on forms?
<sledge_> i've played around with it a bit, but i don't know the code
<sledge_> why?
<StyXman> ah, no. I have new thing done in forms and I was asking about , uh...
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<sledge_> is it in current cvs?
<sledge_> hi solibre :)
<solibre> hi
<StyXman> er, no. I'm producing the patch
<solibre> Tell me sledge_, you're involved in Report, aren't you ?
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<StyXman> I was asking whre to put the definitions if the new things, how to make the patch... that kinda things.
<dneighbo> solibre i beat on reports regularly
<dneighbo> what is your question
<sledge_> StyXman: aha ... no, i'm definitely the wrong guy :)
<dneighbo> StyXman we are probably too close to release to put in a change that is pretty large
<sledge_> solibre: well, i think dneighbo is Official Reports Chief (tm)
<dneighbo> but submit the patch anyhow
<solibre> I wonder if the CVS version is supposed to work (I know it's a kind of stupid question)
<dneighbo> yes it works
<StyXman> source code politics... space vs tabs...
<dneighbo> spaces
<dneighbo> if you have a decent editor make it do what you like
<solibre> because I experienced some problem at installing
<dneighbo> but tabs are a no no here
<sledge_> tabs suck because they behave differently on different systems and some editors don't handle them well
<dneighbo> generally people that like 2 block spacing prefer spacing those that like obnoxious 4 or 8 char spacing want tabs :)
<dneighbo> sledge_ : i agree tabs are just not a good idea imho
<sledge_> solibre: what problem?
<StyXman> dneighbo: *how many* spaces? and yes, I wanted to submit a patch. I don't have write access to cvs.
<solibre> for instance, I had to modify GRService.py to install it without syntax error
<dneighbo> StyXman well cvs is frozen for release so even if you had access and committed code jcater and/or jamest would probably lynch you
<dneighbo> GRService?
<sledge_> StyXman: look at the other files :) 2, i think
<StyXman> (and I don't *want* the latter)
<dneighbo> how were you installing it?
<solibre> with setup.py install
<dneighbo> from where
<dneighbo> i.e. gnue/reports/setup.py
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> gnue/setup.py
<solibre> from gnue/reports/setup.py
<dneighbo> ah i havent tested that in a long time
<dneighbo> with cvs you are always better off running
<dneighbo> gnue/setup-cvs.py
<dneighbo> and it will install everything
<dneighbo> next question is did you get errors during install? or after running?
<solibre> during
<dneighbo> i would get fresh cvs and run setup-cvs.py
<dneighbo> from gnue/ dir
<dneighbo> and let me know if you get any errors
<solibre> ok I try it. 
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<sledge_> btw, whatz the release plan?
<dneighbo> sledge_ : release last week ? :)
<dneighbo> seriously it was supposed to happen last week forms, reports, designer, common
<dneighbo> jcater and jamest are swamped for a week or two, but i think things are pretty close
<dneighbo> if i could find a windows tester
<dneighbo> we could probably bundle some stuff and check it out
<dneighbo> i.e. test it
<dneighbo> if it works well we release
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<btami> hello all
<dneighbo> if we cant do that i think the best course of action is to probably create a branch for the release
<dneighbo> and go ahead and have at head
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you know I have access to a winders machine
<dneighbo> and when life becomes sane then tackle a release
<dneighbo> generally the things that hurt us release wise are getting docs updated and getting things tested
<dneighbo> we have a lot more people with installed systems so it should be easier to get 'testers' :)
<dneighbo> early releases im not too worried about docs, but they are nice to have
<dneighbo> we definitely need to get road maps rolling for all products
<dneighbo> with feature lists by release
<dneighbo> and use the power of cvs to branch/merge as necessary to not kill release cycles
<sledge_> no docs -> no users -> no developers -> no docs (vicious circles suck)
<dneighbo> it was never a large issue as not many developers so we could safely not hurt releases
<dneighbo> i could go on forever abuot it but i wont bore you all :)
<dneighbo> sledge_ i agree, but im talking this release
<dneighbo> i would suffer with minimal docs to get somethign out the door
<dneighbo> we DESPERATELY need debian packages
<sledge_> yes, 0.1 is soo long ago, people need to get a better impression than a designer that crashes upon deleting a widget :/
<dneighbo> nickr, aj and jbailey have all 'looked into it' and maurizo i think did some that didnt work
<dneighbo> but we REALLY REALLY need .deb, .rpm release to gain critical mass
<dneighbo> and get over the 'hard to install' hump
<dneighbo> right now we are high barrier to entry for the target market we aim at
<sledge_> hm, debian packages aren't that complicated to create - i assume it's much more the splitting of gnue components ...
<dneighbo> sledge_ somewhat
<dneighbo> i would like to to see to start with
<dneighbo> gnue-forms
<chillywilly> just make ajmitch do it ;)
<dneighbo> gnue-appserver
<dneighbo> gnue-common
<dneighbo> gnue-reports
<dneighbo> etc all as packages
<dneighbo> but ultimately then be like apache and be able to add
<chillywilly> he makes debs for dotgnu, so he should make debs for us too ;)
<dneighbo> gnue-common-psycopg
<sledge_> chillywilly: agree, we condemn him to do so :)
<dneighbo> gnue-common-pyxmlrpc
<dneighbo> and such
<dneighbo> much like you do apt-get install php4
<dneighbo> apt-get install php4-mysql
<dneighbo> apt-get install php4-pgsql
<dneighbo> etc
<sledge_> dneighbo: i don't see a technical problem. 
<dneighbo> there isnt one
<dneighbo> someone just needs to do it :)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: that's a nice packaging break down
<sledge_> i have no debian at home :/
<chillywilly> :-/
<dneighbo> i need to lock andrew, jeff and nick in a room with some caffiene and computers and not let them out until its packaged :)
<sledge_> i feel so lonely without my debian
<dneighbo> gasp, no debian at home
<dneighbo> call the authorities there is a crime being committed :)
<chillywilly> reinstall now!
<chillywilly> :P
<sledge_> on a 5 year old machine, i won't install *anything* new. i will wait for my new computer and make it a debian machine from hell
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: sledge_ thinks of a "sex sells"-like campaign for debian... "apt me, baby"
<chillywilly> hehe
<StyXman> :)))
<sledge_> btw, rpm spec files are quite easy to write, i have tried that one year ago
<chillywilly> but there's always porn-get
<chillywilly> ;)
<btami> dneighbo: please close ticket #38, it is outdated (#39 solved)
<chillywilly> damn jan is a freakin' machine
<sledge_> apt-cache search porn-get --> porn-get    A script to fetch your daily porn
<sledge_> chillywilly: y?
<StyXman> sledge_: liar! :)
<sledge_> StyXman: haha! :)
<StyXman> sledge_: you broke my illusion! :)
<StyXman> (is this logged somewhere? :)
<chillywilly> porn-get is real
<chillywilly> http://www.lesbian.mine.nu/
<chillywilly> ;P
<btami> dneighbo ?
<dneighbo> btami what is outdated? i.e. it needs a fix
<StyXman> nu? where's that
<dneighbo> do you have access to close it?
<chillywilly> I don't know where nu is
<sledge_> chillywilly: we should restrict this channel to age>=21 :)
<StyXman> ok, I have the patch. where to? (what to?)
<chillywilly> then ajmitch would have to go home ;)
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<btami> dneighbo: the #39 pach (fix) was applied
<dneighbo> you mean #38?
<btami> 38 was the error reporting, 39 was a fix for error
<dneighbo> StyXman best to send an email to forms-support@gnuenterprise.org with the patch as an attachment and cc info@gnue.org
<dneighbo> btami ok closing now
<btami> thanks
<StyXman> dneighbo: ack
<btami> dneighbo: you misunderstanding #28 problem
<dneighbo> more than likely
<dneighbo> i think i asked for clarification (no?)
<dneighbo> if not i meant to
<btami> please take a simple gfd from samples
<btami> it has an entry width=10
<btami> if i type 123456789, they all fit into
<btami> but when i type the 10.
<btami> 1-9 are shifted to left
<btami> there in no enough room for 10 chars
<btami> er in=is
<StyXman> patch sent!
Action: StyXman is happy.
<Chipaca> dneighbo: not gnue-dev?
<StyXman> what's that forms.test?!?
<btami> it's too late, good nigt
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<dneighbo> not gnue-dev?
<dneighbo> well for now we are doing info@gnue.org 
<dneighbo> i think if we continue to have high patch volume we will create public list gnue-patches@gnu.org or something
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<dneighbo> but for now i dont want to send to gnue-dev as it might be considered rude to send attachments to that list
<StyXman> dneighbo: you'll get more (at least from me :)
<solibre> dneighbo : ok I tried to install from gnue/setup-cvs.py and no problem appears at install. I suppose this is because setup-cvs.py only create links, while setup.py install uses distutils, and try to byte compile the .py files   
<dneighbo> not sure without looking :)
<solibre> But for now I have such a mess with all the install, I need first to clean all this and restart from 0, then I can see it clearer
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> brb
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<solibre> But for now, it's almost midnight. Good night  zZzzZz |-)
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<dneighbo> hmm btami left, was able to confirm his problem too
<StyXman> ok, gone. tomorrow there'll be a textbox.
<StyXman> (if luck i on my side :)
<jcater> textbox?
<StyXman> jcater: yes, wee need a textbox, as in html.
<jcater> StyXman: I didn't get an attachment with that patch email
<StyXman> jcater: oh, fuck, yes, I forgot. just a sec.
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<StyXman> there is it.
<StyXman> jcater: any ideas about the textbox?
<sledge_> bye then
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<StyXman> yes's, no's or something?
<StyXman> ok, who shuts up gives up.
<StyXman> bye
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<jcater> sigh
<jcater> of course I had comments
<jcater> but work called
Action: jcater is really worried w/the direction this is heading
<dneighbo> sigh text boxes exist
<jcater> yes
<jcater> but not what I think he's describing
<jcater> and I missed him
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> he said like html
<dneighbo> i assume he means 'textarea' in html
<dneighbo> and do have those
<jcater> oh, I thought he meant that would display html markup
<dneighbo> oh maybe that is the case, but i dont think that is something for gnue per say
<dneighbo> at least not at this stage 
<dneighbo> toolbar thing has me nervous a bit
<dneighbo> on/off switch im down with 
<dneighbo> customizing im ok with
<dneighbo> multiple toolbars im not sure about (maybe thats not what teh patch is)
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Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
Nick change: chillywilly -> cwdinner
<Chipaca> jcater: we have a mutli-line 'comment' field in the db. If not a textarea-like thing, how else?
Nick change: cwdinner -> cw-dinner
<dneighbo> Chipaca we support that
<Chipaca> dneighbo: oh?
<jcater> Chipaca: set the height="5"
<jcater> and you get a 5-line text widget
Action: Chipaca feels stupid
<dneighbo> Chipaca dont feel dump feel devious
<jcater> Chipaca: ok, so a comment field is what y'all were looking for
<jcater> and not an HTML rendering area?
<dneighbo> email styxman and tell him you are sick of him leaving early and making you do all the work
<dneighbo> and that you slaved to get it add to forms all night long
<Chipaca> jcater: no, StyXman meant 'I want something like HTML's <textarea>'
<dneighbo> and it should work and we loved it so much we committed to cvs right away
<jcater> whew
Action: jcater was nervous there for a minute :)
<Chipaca> dneighbo: nah, it's not like that :)
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<StyXman> so, I'm here
<StyXman> jcater: you were saying...?
<jcater> <entry ... height="5">
<jcater> and you get a 5-line text widget
<StyXman> nono, about me getting out early :)
<dneighbo> rofl
<jcater> StyXman: that was dneighbo
<dneighbo> that was me talking the smack 
<dneighbo> no jcater 
<StyXman> (root should never get into IRC, but...)
<StyXman> ok, whoever.
<StyXman> you saw the patch?
<dneighbo> yeah we ignored^H^H^H^H^H^H^H saw it
<StyXman> dneighbo: I supossed something the like would happen.
<dneighbo> it probably will be a few days before it gets processed
<dneighbo> if not longer because of trying to release
<StyXman> I'm more worried about the little bugfix I mention in the mail...
Action: dneighbo is curious what StyXman means
<StyXman> the rest (I guess) will take more time 'till it's polished (i.e., you tell what's wrong and I fix it)
<dneighbo> is it like styx the band, styx the river in hell?
<StyXman> dneighbo: it has a diff against... er.
Action: dneighbo is just curious as the the name
<StyXman> GFDisplayHandler...
<StyXman> dneighbo: the river on hell, just like the band :)
Action: dneighbo still thinks Chica every time i see chipaca and if he says my name it turns yellow and i think banana (like chiquita)
<StyXman> heheh
Action: Chipaca tries to ignore the comment
<dneighbo> what does chipaca mean?
<StyXman> wowo, that's more difficult.
<Chipaca> No definitions found for "chipaca"
<dneighbo> is it something real?
<Chipaca> Chipaca is a fatty chunk of bread
<StyXman> it's a kind of bread, with *lost* of fat.
Action: StyXman wants one of those.
<Chipaca> peculiar to Córdoba, which is where we are
Action: Chipaca was far away from real chipacas the first time he used IRC
<StyXman> Chipaca: where were you then?
<StyXman> england?
<Chipaca> StyXman: Balseiro
<StyXman> ok, gione again.
<StyXman> (ah)
<StyXman> anything you want to tell me before I'm gone? :)
<Chipaca> LUG meet!
Action: Chipaca runs
<StyXman> nothing? right, then gone.
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Action: StyXman too
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<dneighbo> i get it now
<dneighbo> Chipaca == argentinian donut
Action: cw-dinner is back (gone 00:24:04)
Nick change: cw-dinner -> chillywilly
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<chillywilly> siesel: sup dawg
<chillywilly> siesel: you be coding like a crazy man
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<chillywilly> sup dsmith
<siesel> cw: :)  btw: have you tested appserver?
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> I can do it tonight
Action: chillywilly is reading IRC RFCs ;)
<dneighbo> when was it last done?
<dneighbo> if midnight from CST i can test
<siesel> dneighbo: cool. if the installer is working without problems, we can do a release of appserver 0.0.1 soon.
<siesel> cw: trying to prepare a blank commdriver, where the protocoll specific stuff is missing, I saw that the actual RPC code needs a cleanup. :( 
<dneighbo> not really as it relies on common
<dneighbo> or at least it should require common
<dneighbo> which means we have to have a release of common in conjunction with it
<siesel> soon = after the release of common.
<siesel> :)
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<dneighbo> siesel you still here
<dneighbo> i am wiping my stable cvs to get new cvs to test appserver for you
<dneighbo> be warned i am an EVIL tester
<dsmith> chillywilly: Trying to get a caller-id modem working
<dneighbo> is your appserver install encapsulated within setup-cvs.py?
<siesel> yes.
<siesel> I try to create a INSTALL.FAQ out of any installation questions.
<dneighbo> ok installed
<dneighbo> now what
Action: dneighbo is playing stupid user
<siesel> look at INSTALL.cvs (siesel has to add a hint to that in README)
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> im looking at INSTALL
<dneighbo> i dont see an INSTALL.cvs 
<dneighbo> well it might be there give me a minute the install i read told me i needed an rpc library so im getting that
<dneighbo> two questions
<dneighbo> a. does your setup.py in appserver directory check for a VALID rpc driver installed?  if not it should
<siesel> a. yes
<dneighbo> b. if you run appserver and no rpc driver is available what happens?  do you get a good error message telling you wehre to get it?
<dneighbo> i dont see INSTALL.cvs in the appserver directory should there be one there?
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-05-28/appserver# ls
<dneighbo> AUTHORS  CVS      NEWS    ROADMAP  doc   packaging  scripts  setup.cfg.in  src
<dneighbo> COPYING  INSTALL  README  THANKS   grpc  samples    server   setup.py
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-05-28/appserver# 
<siesel> b. its the same as in dbdriver if you want to use dbdriver/popy but you don't have popy installed the dbdriver raises an error with an url
<dneighbo> cool
<siesel> INSTALL.cvs should be in this directory. (Iä've added it some hours agao
<siesel>  /agao/ago/
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> that was my first question :)
<dneighbo> has anything been updated since midnight CST
<dneighbo> as i dont have cvs from here and have to use nightly snapshots :)
<dneighbo> where is gtestcvs?
<dneighbo> it is not with my other binaries
<dneighbo> and is not in the scripts/ directory under appserver
<siesel> its should be created automagically by setup-cvs.py
<dneighbo> i have found it in common/scripts/
<dneighbo> never mind my bad
<dneighbo> forgot to exit root after installing that rpc package
<dneighbo> so ~/bin/ was empty altogether
<dneighbo>  :)
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-05-28/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GConnections.py", line 133, in getConnectionParameter
<dneighbo> DB000:     raise NotFoundError, \
<dneighbo> DB000: gnue.common.GConnections.NotFoundError: The connections file does not contain a definition 
<dneighbo> DB000:        for "gnue".
<dneighbo> DB000: 
<dneighbo> DB000: File: /home/dneighbo/gnue/etc/connections.conf
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:~/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-05-28/appserver$ 
<dneighbo> in the install file it didnt mention anything about prepping the connections file to have certain values or such
<siesel> can you download INSTALL.cvs and INSTALL from http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/appserver/ ?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you need a connections.conf just like you need one with forms that do something
<dneighbo> chilly no kidding
<dneighbo> im not a fscking idiot
<dneighbo> he asked for a TESTER
<dneighbo> the instructions i have dont say anything about configuring anything
<dneighbo> but they say to press (2)
<dneighbo> my 'bug report' was
<chillywilly> geeze man
<dneighbo> dont ask user to press (2) with out telling them how to configure their system
<chillywilly> I was kidding
<chillywilly> I know you said you were playing dumb user and I was playing help the dumb user ;P
<chillywilly> freakin' a
<siesel> btw. should INSTALL.cvs be mentioned in README? because INSTALL.cvs won't be copied for a release.
<dneighbo> no
<dneighbo> Unable to load locale information falling back to default English language translations.
<dneighbo> Creating session object ...
<dneighbo> Logging into the session ...
<dneighbo> Creating list object ...
<dneighbo> Setting up list object ...
<dneighbo> Populating list ...
<dneighbo> Retrieving first instance ...
<dneighbo> These are the values of the first instance:
<dneighbo>   Name  : James T. Kirk
<dneighbo>   Street: Enterprise Road 17
<dneighbo>   City  : Gnutown
<dneighbo> Thank you for playing!
<dneighbo> first test succesful
Action: siesel hopes that RPC is playing well too.
<dneighbo> second test works
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> it seems to run twice
<dneighbo> Your choice: 3
<dneighbo>  
<dneighbo> Unable to load locale information falling back to default English language translations.
<dneighbo> Creating session object ...
<dneighbo> Logging into the session ...
<dneighbo> Creating list object ...
<dneighbo> Setting up list object ...
<dneighbo> Populating list ...
<dneighbo> Retrieving first instance ...
<dneighbo> These are the values of the first instance:
<dneighbo>   Name  : James T. Kirk
<dneighbo>   Street: Enterprise Road 17
<dneighbo>   City  : Gnutown
<dneighbo> Thank you for playing!
<dneighbo> Opening RPC connection ...
<dneighbo> DB000: Unable to load locale information falling back to default English language translations.
<dneighbo> Setup an link to the session manager
<siesel> I know. this bug was fixed short after midnight ;)
<dneighbo> Get the status of the session manager
<dneighbo> Status:  Running (no sessions created yet)
<dneighbo> Creating session object ...
<dneighbo> Logging into the session ...
<dneighbo> Creating list object ...
<dneighbo> Setting up list object ...
<dneighbo> Populating list ...
<dneighbo> Retrieving first instance ...
<dneighbo> These are the values of the first instance:
<dneighbo>   Name  : James T. Kirk
<dneighbo>   Street: Enterprise Road 17
<dneighbo>   City  : Gnutown
<dneighbo> Thank you for playing!
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:~$ 
<dneighbo> ok documentation error me thinks
<dneighbo> c. GNUe Forms using appservertest.gfd
<dneighbo> -------------------------------------
<dneighbo> Accessing the sample data with GNUe Forms. 
<dneighbo> 1. Startup GNUe Appserver by executing "gacvs -Z"
<dneighbo> 2. Startup GNUe Forms by executing "gfcvs samples/appservertest.gfd"
<dneighbo> 3. A login screen will pop up. As Appserver is not checking passwords at
<dneighbo>    the moment enter anything you want.
<dneighbo> 4. Now you can change the sample data with GNUe Forms
<dneighbo> requires: * a connection.conf with a [gnue] entry
<dneighbo>           * database tables created with the "setup-*.sh" from the 
<dneighbo>             samples directory
<dneighbo>           * a least one working GNURPC protocol ( for the default GNURPC
<dneighbo>             protocol ("xmlrpc"), you have to install py-xmlrpc. If you
<dneighbo>             use debian woody, just call 'apt-get install python-xmlrpc')
<dneighbo>           * a [appserver] entry in your connections.conf file. For a sample
<dneighbo>             entry have a look at sample.connection.conf
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<dneighbo> a few things
<eMeow-v2> chillywilly: is it in production anywhere yet?
<dneighbo> a. the sample.connection.conf doesnt contain any sample for appserver
<dneighbo> b. the form references GEASv2 as the database
<chillywilly> eMeow-v2: er, some developers use it in production
<dneighbo> so i would expect to need a GEASv2 entry
<dneighbo> again these things might have been updated since midnight
<chillywilly> eMeow-v2: I suggest talking to dneighbo ;)
<chillywilly> jamest
<siesel> a. both already fixed in cvs.
<chillywilly> or jcater
<eMeow-v2> chillywilly: heh, at a first glance if there was mature i18n and qt bindings, I'd cover half Israel with it in a couple of months ;)
<chillywilly> (he's not here right now
<eMeow-v2> hello everyone!
<chillywilly> you can write the qt ui plugin then ;)
<chillywilly> I am sure others wouldn't mind
<siesel> dneighbo: fix: copy the entry from INSTALL into connections.conf and change the name to geasv2
<eMeow-v2> okay, I need to grab some beer, reboot into Debian and check out the cvs
<dneighbo> last demo works
<dneighbo> siesel i already had it fixed
<dneighbo> just was pointing out the error
<dneighbo> im not sure though how its access postgres w/o me giving some sort of credentials
<siesel> hehe
<dneighbo> i.e. i can understand that geas has no understanding of security
<dneighbo> so i can tag it just fine w/ bogus info
<dneighbo> but how is it accessing postgres with out credentials?
Action: dneighbo doesnt remember putting those values somewehre
<siesel> its reinhard's code. It just takes your LOGNAME and set a bogus password.
<dneighbo> ok so it would not work then if i tightened my security on postgres
<dneighbo> on my dev boxes i have set to trust
<dneighbo> i think
<siesel> postgres is set to ident authentification, so it works
<dneighbo> but if i set on something that required a real password it would not work
<dneighbo> siesel : you can have postgres set up to let you log in with any password and only valid id
<siesel> there are (please don't hit me) password and username command line options for gacvs
<dneighbo> or you can make it take a valid id
<dneighbo> siesel nothing wrong with that
<chillywilly> except is you do a ps ax ;P
Action: dneighbo is pretty impressed
<chillywilly> s/is/if
<dneighbo> i give it a green light success
<chillywilly> and this is just plain read/write through
<dneighbo> surely i woudl say its 0.0.1 or 0.1.0 or whatever 
<chillywilly> wait until it does cool things like objects ;)
<dneighbo> and could be released with the other toys
<siesel> great. 
Action: chillywilly hi fives siesel
<chillywilly> good job yo
<siesel> do you have any objections or ideas for the INSTALL and INSTALL.cvs files?
Action: siesel hi fives chillywilly
<chillywilly> 0.0.1 here we come!
<chillywilly> w000
<siesel> chillywilly: what do you think? first release 0.0.1 or first add GConditions support?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> depends on when common is going to be released
<siesel> ;)
<chillywilly> and how long it would take to implement GConditions
<siesel> :(
<chillywilly> you don't want to miss the common release
<chillywilly> but if there's time to add and test thoroughly then I say add it ;)
<chillywilly> or just branch off for the release...a little early for that ;)
<siesel> its would be great to have it in. because it needs changes in dbdrivers/appserver which means an appserver (with gconditions) release has to wait for the next common release.
<chillywilly> yea
<dneighbo> honestly the instructions and such look decent
<siesel> but that will be the same with introspection.... 
<dneighbo> i will give my opinion here
<chillywilly> what sorta api we looking at for that?
<dneighbo> we really need to get in a habit of 'roadmapping'
<chillywilly> dneighbo: of course you will ;)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: we have one now :)
<chillywilly> in appserver I mean
<dneighbo> and saying version X will have features abcdef and go by that
<dneighbo> not by 'can we squeeze it in' as that is how stuff gets HELD up
Action: chillywilly looks to see how well defined it is
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<dneighbo> as then it becomes well common is ready but we are close on Gconditions
<dneighbo> so then we hold up cfor that and someone says hold forms for X
<chillywilly> conditions aren't mentioned
<chillywilly> in our roadmap
<chillywilly> perhaps it needs to be put somewhere
<dneighbo> instead if Gconditions is mandatory for 0.1.0 or whatever then add it
<dneighbo> if its not
<dneighbo> then branch cvs and tag it
<dneighbo> and start gconditions
<dneighbo> does that make sense?
<dneighbo> or will this be unmanageable
Action: chillywilly wishes he understood data sources and the rpc stuff better
<chillywilly> oh well
<chillywilly> I think I just need to get over those humps and I'll be alright
<jcater> imho, we need a damn good reason to branch cvs and then remerge
<jcater> 'cause despite what anyone says, that's a bitch to manage
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> yes it is :)
<chillywilly> a PITA
<siesel> branch cvs is too much for gconditions support. The main problem is that the way how to send GCondition structure over RPC is not quite defined till now.
<dneighbo> well other projects have to be doing this
<dneighbo> btw: i dont think you ever do a REMERGE
<dneighbo> i think you make changes twice
<dneighbo> i.e. in this example if appserver is ready you tag and branch as 0.1.0
<dneighbo> and cvs head is the norm
<dneighbo> if something needs to be updated found in testing for release
<dneighbo> it is made to 0.1.0 as well as to head
<dneighbo> because there shouldnt be a ton of changes
<dneighbo> then if you do say a 0.1.1 or a 0.1.2 and such same thing applies
<dneighbo> imho
<dneighbo> if we dont find SOME way to manage we will never release anything
<dneighbo> too many developers
<dneighbo> too many itches
<dneighbo> too many products
<dneighbo> im open for suggestions
<chillywilly> the cvs book lays out a couple ways to manage branches, I say pick on of those ways
<siesel> if anyone could explain to me how to fix an bug on the to_be_released branch and the head branch in an easy way I 'm with you
<chillywilly> you merge back into head and resovle conflicts by hand...unfortunately
<chillywilly> thus why it is a big PITA
<jcater> maybe we should switch to bitkeeper?
<chillywilly> aaaaacccckkk!
<chillywilly> lalalalalala
<dneighbo> there is no 'easy' way
<dneighbo> but remember there should not be MAJOR changes happening to those release branches
<dneighbo> as it should not be any new features
<dneighbo> only bug fixes
<dneighbo> jcater: you stole my line :)
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> btw: im just putting out the solution that is closest to hand, im not saying its a great one
<dneighbo> plesae if someone has better way let us know
<dneighbo> but we NEED to do something to preserve state for releases
<dneighbo> or we will be in the never ending cycle of not being able to release thigns
<dneighbo> i.e. we are close on release now
<siesel> what about branching just short before the release and if there is need for patches just tell the "cvs release manager" to apply the patch.
<jcater> that has had more to do with life than with feature creep
<dneighbo> but appserver is in holding pattern or they might hold up train
<dneighbo> there are changes pending to toolbar that to me are too big to do right before release
<dneighbo> etc etc
<dneighbo> jcater: agree, but the problem is no one can code if life happens and we are in holding patterns
<dneighbo> we need a way to solve that
<dneighbo> i do think in the past we have had some feature creep for releases though not nearly as bad as somethings i have worked on
<dneighbo> some of it is we need good packaging and testers
<dneighbo> so we can better automate the release process
<dneighbo> so developers dont have to devote a week to 'releasing'
<dneighbo> as that would help a lot of the problems 
<dneighbo> but maybe im crazy
<dneighbo> i have to run
<dneighbo> bbl
<jcater> siesel: what are we holding up?
<dneighbo> jcater: he asked if he should start Gcondition support i think
<siesel> nothing.
<dneighbo> the response was
<dneighbo> can you do it before common is ready for release
<dneighbo> i said that is a bad strategy
<dneighbo> as if he cant do before common then that means it holds up common until he is done
<dneighbo> or that we release common without appserver
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
<jcater> oh
<dneighbo> in the past that is what has killed us re forms/designer/common
<jcater> we're releasing geas?
<dneighbo> one thing being done
<dneighbo> and another not done
<dneighbo> and so add 'one more' feature while waiting :)
<dneighbo> jcater: i just ran the demos and tested the documentation
<dneighbo> it is pretty solid
<jcater> dneighbo: in our defense, though
<jcater> common as stabilized
<dneighbo> i think its 0.1.0 or so status
<dneighbo> agree
<jcater> i.e., the api hasn't changed since 0.1.0
<dneighbo> im not knocking anyone
<dneighbo> just saying as we grow and get more developers and more tools
<dneighbo> and such we need to start addressing these things
<dneighbo> have to leave for real now :)
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Action: jcater thinks chillywilly has a .cvsignore fetish
<chillywilly> I like the tree to be clean
<chillywilly> yea, I have fetish ;)
<chillywilly> a fetish
<eMeow-v2> Anyone slap me. 
Action: chillywilly slaps eMeow-v2
<eMeow-v2> good ;)
<eMeow-v2> I was reading the FAQs... how on *earth* could I miss sucha huge project?
<chillywilly> you were blinded by your love of PHP ;)
<eMeow-v2> PHP is better than P*RL when it comes to matters of dynamic HTML generation, and HTML solves my most hated problem - UI :)
<chillywilly> well I just wanted to give you crap
<chillywilly> it's my job here
<chillywilly> to give people crap and be a buisance
<chillywilly> nuisance even
<eMeow-v2> well
<eMeow-v2> I'm a carreer troll and flamer, so you're going to look for a new occupation soon
<eMeow-v2> hehe
Action: jcater thought you were saying you have been "bloussant" (buisance)
<jcater> and I couldn't figure out why you wanted bigger breasts, chillywilly
<jcater> but I'll give you the nuisance :)
<eMeow-v2> ahh, the friendly army of Stallman ;)
<chillywilly> heil gnu!
<chillywilly> anyways....
<jcater> well
<jcater> maybe the Salvation Army
<eMeow-v2> chillywilly: no. Hail Eris.
<eMeow-v2> (you're supposed to say: Hail All Discordia!)
<chillywilly> I am slow
<chillywilly> sorry
<eMeow-v2> ok, let's try it on a real thing
<eMeow-v2> Hail Eris!
<eMeow-v2> your turn
<chillywilly> Hail All Discordia!
<eMeow-v2> good!
<jcater> Hail Krispie Kreme!
<eMeow-v2> Hail All Discordia!
<eMeow-v2> on that fnordish note, I'm going back to read the technology faq
<jcater> gah
<jcater> what is GNUe Reports?
<jcater> anyone?
<chillywilly> a thing that makes reports
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> the reporting engine of the gnu enterprise project
<chillywilly> er...
<stbain> [21:04] <jcater> what is GNUe Reports?  <--- why is it disturbing to me that he doesn't know this yet?
Action: jcater is trying to write the README in prep for a release
<chillywilly> stbain: lol
<chillywilly> rofl
<eMeow-v2> chillywilly: do I get it right that the online documentation is not exactly up to date?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> one could say that...
<jcater> one could?
<jcater> I think one just did!
<chillywilly> you *think* but do you truly know?!?
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> I really didn't think
<eMeow-v2> I think it was a yes or no question ;)
<chillywilly> what a shock
Action: siesel has to sleep.
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<jcater> can someone update cvs and read report's README and INSTALL and see if they make any sense?
<chillywilly> you got any money?
<jcater> not a bit
<chillywilly> then the answer is "no"
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> looks good
<chillywilly> jcater: do you use python 2.1 for development usually?
<jcater> yip
<jcater> exclusively, actually
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<chillywilly> ok, that is the version I will stick to then, althought it seems that 2.2 has a better object model in it, imho
<chillywilly> i that you can derive from built-in types without those kludge classes
<jcater> yeah
<chillywilly> UserDict, etc.
<jcater> but we aren't ready to require 2.2 yet
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I recognie the rationale
<chillywilly> recognize
<chillywilly> and agree
<jcater> I still think Python 2.2 should've been Python 3.0
<jcater> as they made quite a few not-so-small language changes
<chillywilly> major revision in your eyes?
<jcater> well, stuff that would work under 2.1 may break under 2.2
<jcater> but that's not really true of 2.0 vs 2.1
eMeow-v2 (~meow@212.199.197.237) left irc: "leaving"
<chillywilly> jcater: you going to expose a remote interface to reports eventually?
<jcater> there's the start of one in cvs
<jcater> as I was designing gnurpc for reports
<jcater> not for geas :)
<chillywilly> ooooh
<jcater> but than siesel had to step in
<jcater> and make geas the l33t first serverized GNUe-Common app
<chillywilly>  read the xmlrpc spec the yesterday
<chillywilly> where does it specify that directory service stuff?
<chillywilly> or whatever it is called
<jcater> that's not part of the spec
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> but is part of the accepted standard
<jcater> if that makes sense
<jcater> lemme look for docs
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> http://xmlrpc.usefulinc.com/doc/reserved.html
<jcater> that document introduced the methods
<jcater> and most other implementations have tried to implement the equivalent
<jcater> (including us)
<chillywilly> ok
Action: chillywilly has long since forgotten PHP
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> good job :)
<chillywilly> isn't WDSL the same as what GNURPC is trying to do?
<chillywilly> Web Services Description Language
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> W3C standard
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> url?
<chillywilly> one sec
<chillywilly> http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl
<chillywilly> http://www.w3schools.com has nice tutorials
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> that seems mighty SOAP-centric
<jcater> but I'm really not familiar with it
<chillywilly> well they say it is network protocol agnostic
<chillywilly> beats me I still have to read it
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> there's another thing I wanted to look at too, UDDI
<chillywilly> WDSL:
<chillywilly> WSDL:
<chillywilly> Services are defined using six major elements:
<chillywilly>     * types, which provides data type definitions used to describe the messages exchanged.
<chillywilly>     * message, which represents an abstract definition of the data being transmitted. A message consists of logical parts, each of which is associated with a definition within some type system.
<chillywilly>     * portType, which is a set of abstract operations. Each operation refers to an input message and output messages.
<chillywilly>     * binding, which specifies concrete protocol and data format specifications for the operations and messages defined by a particular portType.
<chillywilly>     * port, which specifies an address for a binding, thus defining a single communication endpoint.
<chillywilly>     * service, which is used to aggregate a set of related ports.
<chillywilly> looks eeerily familiar in some respects ;)
<jcater> hey, we're good
<chillywilly> you mean you are
Action: chillywilly sucks
<ajmitch> morning all
<chillywilly> ello ajmitch
<jcater> <chillywilly> you mean you are
<jcater> is that yoda speak?
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> learn how to read damnit ;)
<jcater> um
<jcater> what is the odmg directory in common/src ????
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> nothing right now...I was thinking it wouold be a generic implementation that someone could extend before I realized python doesn't care about inheriting interface
<chillywilly> so it's probably pointless
Action: chillywilly is not used to dynamic typing
Action: chillywilly <-- big stupid moron
<jcater> well
<jcater> let the fun begin
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease/
<jcater> that's common and reports (first stab)
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> we need one for appserver now
<jcater> is it ready to be released?
<chillywilly> supposedly it can be released, but it doesn't do conditions
<chillywilly> when you plan on releasing common?
<jcater> afaik, common is frozen right now
<jcater> within a few days
<jcater> um, where is he adding condition support?
<jcater> the common/dbdriver?
<ajmitch> so there's no time for chillywilly to add his l33t IRC gnurpc driver? ;)
<jcater> rofl
<chillywilly> jcater: yea dbdriver for appserver
<chillywilly> hey ajmitch I am really going to write that ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: there's nothing wrong with us releasing our stuff this week
<chillywilly> just for fun
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> and then the GEAS team releasing common 0.3.1 in a week or two
Action: ajmitch fears chillywilly's mad skills
<jcater> as he won't be breaking common
<jcater> hmm
Action: chillywilly may steal ajmitch's irc.py
<chillywilly> hey ajmitch, did you have your bot parse a config file?
<ajmitch> nope
<ajmitch> couldn't be bothered
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<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease/ <-- Common/Designer/Forms/Reports prereleases
<jcater> (not tested for Win32 yet!!!)
<jcater> I must sleep now
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<dneighbo> thats not really jamest is it?
--- Thu May 30 2002