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<ajmitch> hi chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi
<ajmitch> recovered much?
Action: chillywilly is downloading mega packages
<chillywilly> seur everything
<ajmitch> good thing you have cable
<chillywilly> just took forever to fix this crap
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I am using apt-proxy though
Action: ajmitch has a cache of all installed packages in /usr/local/mirrors/debian
<ajmitch> built using apt-move
Action: chillywilly moves the old status file then did dpkg --get-selections thre it ins a file then wrote a little one liner with awk and apt-get to install all his old packages
<chillywilly> 488MB worth
<ajmitch> pretty pitiful :)
<chillywilly> why?
<ajmitch> /usr/local/mirrors/debian is 790MB here :)
<chillywilly> how do you maintain it though?
<ajmitch> apt-move
<chillywilly> apt-move didn't usually like me
<ajmitch> probably not too many packages in there that aren't installed
<chillywilly> I think INIT got b0rked somehow before
<ajmitch> that sounds bad
<ajmitch> scanned you box for a virus? ;)
<chillywilly> ah well
<chillywilly> dude how can I convert to an ext3 partition?
<chillywilly> is that possible?
<ajmitch> from what?
<chillywilly> ext2
<ajmitch> RTFM, or tune2fs -j /dev/hdxx
<chillywilly> oooooh
<ajmitch> change /etc/fstab entry for partition to ext3, remount
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<chillywilly> you need space for the journal right?
<ajmitch> yes
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> going to have to recompile this kernel then as ext3 is a module :(
<ajmitch> why?
<chillywilly> I want journaling for / and since it is ext2 and I am install a whole bunch of stuff I'll have to make it ext3
<chillywilly> I don't have an initrd for it I don't think
<chillywilly> damn it si very very early in the morning
<chillywilly> I should sleep now
<chillywilly> Sun Jun  2 04:11:55 CDT 2002
<ajmitch> sleep then
<chillywilly> some day I am going to keep /etc in cvs ;)
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Action: ajmitch just rsyncs to other box every few months
<chillywilly> aaaaawwww sheeeeit
<chillywilly> for backup purposes eh?
<chillywilly> yea, I am goin to start doing thatt
<chillywilly> this is fucking rediculous
<chillywilly> night all
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<siesel> hi all!
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<siesel_> dinner time :)  bbl.
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<reinhard> ok 2 comments after reading the logs
<reinhard> 1. executable names for releases i would propose to have gnue-appserver gnue-forms gnue-designer etc
<reinhard> as this is least dangerous for name conflicts
<reinhard> i could imagine some other project uses gforms too for example
<reinhard> 2. appserver is not geas it is replacing geas
<reinhard> so i see no problem at all starting with appserver-0.0.1
<reinhard> even when we had geas-0.3.0
<reinhard> and this is one of the reasons why i beg everyone to not name any "publicly visible" (outside the source) things "geas"
<reinhard> --
<Isomer> cool
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<StyXman> hi peop
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<StyXman> chillywilly: did your kernel work?
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<StyXman> sloooow day...
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<chillywilly> StyXman my init process got bitched
<chillywilly> somehow
<chillywilly> I had to move everything off / and then reformat it and reinstall
<chillywilly> I used dpkg --get-selections to select all the old packages I had installed
<chillywilly> I am now waiting for all 488MB worth of packages to install
<chillywilly> then I can reconnect all my other partitions back into my fixed /
<chillywilly> pain in the ass, but I recovered
<chillywilly> ;P
<StyXman> chillywilly: you know about image processing apps?
<chillywilly> do I know of any good ones?
<StyXman> I just want to take a image and do an animation that stretches two points of it together
<StyXman> don't know what to use.
<chillywilly> a gif?
<StyXman> a whatever.
<StyXman> the difficult step is the stretching.
<chillywilly> beats me
<StyXman> me too
<chillywilly> I don't think the GIMP will let you do anything that fancy
<chillywilly> that's the onyl image processing/editing thing I use
<StyXman> chillywilly: I'm checking in gimp.org, just in case
<chillywilly> theres always #gimp on OPN or irc.gnome.org ;)
<StyXman> ah, good point. brb.
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<chillywilly> wb StyXman 
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<StyXman> chillywilly: gimp does not exist, and gimp-es is desert :(
<chillywilly> but did you try irc.gnome.org?
<chillywilly> I think that's where I go for my gimp help
<StyXman> ah, ain't the same as openprojects.org?
<chillywilly> nope, different network
<chillywilly> and its openprojects.net not .org ;)
<StyXman> ok, I'm there...
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<chillywilly> howdy psu 
<psu> hi there
<StyXman> hit here
<StyXman> :)
<StyXman> once I saluted that way. never ever used 'hit here' anymore :)
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: psu has been off on a trip
<psu> hence KC is a day late
<psu> just sent it to Zack 
<psu> finished it off in the biz lounge @ the airport coming back
<chillywilly> ooooh
<psu> give Zack a few hours & it should be up
<StyXman> wow. my gf has just called me from paris.
Action: psu is pleased to report that the free pretzels are still as naff as they used to be when he did this for a living
<StyXman> I'm stunned.
<chillywilly> what did you do for a living?
<chillywilly> live in ariports?
<chillywilly> ;P
<psu> seemed that way, sometimes
<psu> ;-)
<psu> Business Applications Consultant
<psu> for a very non-free financial systems/ERP vendor
<psu> not one of the big boys
<psu> so you don't have to pretend to have heard of them ;-)
<chillywilly> then you saw the light?
<chillywilly> the light of Free software
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> consulting as what? a programmer or business guy?
<jcater> chillywilly: as a consultant
<jcater> :-)
Action: jcater is back (gone 16:52:41)
Action: psu saw the light of not getting up at 05:00 to get to the airport
<chillywilly> jcater bite me
<chillywilly> anyway
<chillywilly> I almost have my system salvaged
<chillywilly> weeee
Action: psu works for the city govt now
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> your one of them
<chillywilly> at leats your not a county employee
<chillywilly> least
<chillywilly> those people are useless
<chillywilly> oh wait
<chillywilly> derek is a county employee ;)
Action: psu was a county employee for 9+ years
<jcater> anyone know of a good reference for creating man pages?
<psu> man man?
<jcater> oooo, never mind
<jcater> found the Linux Man-Page-HowTo
<jcater> looks like a good starting place :)
<chillywilly> man pages for what?
<jcater> gnue
<psu> sounds as if it should work - it's recursive enuf for a GNU tool
<chillywilly> blah, we should have info pages
<jcater> well
<chillywilly> which means use texinfo or docbook to texinfo
<jcater> I'm added a --dump-man-page option to GBaseApp
<jcater> so if you find me a reference on info files
<jcater> I'll add a --dump-info-file too
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> info texinfo
<jcater> btw, I personally think man pages take a precedent over info pages
<jcater> but I'm sure both are useful
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<chillywilly> info pages are a lot nicer, imho ansd tend to be more verbose and have excellent key bingdings for navigation ;)
<chillywilly> info is the gnu documentation system
<chillywilly> but whatever
<chillywilly> bbl
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<jcater> the bitchx team really should just wipe out their entire /quit message library
<jcater> and start from scratch
<jcater> 'cause that's just plain sad
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<chillywilly> only took forever to get my system back up :-/
<jcater> bummer
<jcater> is it working fine now?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> you know right after you get the freeunsued kernel memory message and then INIT starts?
<chillywilly> freeing unused
<chillywilly> well it would hang right there
<jcater> ya
<jcater> ouch
<chillywilly> now matter what kernel I would boot
<chillywilly> even old ones that I know work did that
<chillywilly> I think INIT was fucked up
<chillywilly> my key bindings in gnome don't work
Action: chillywilly fires up gnomecc
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<chillywilly> hmmm, I miss the preemption patch :(
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<psu> storm appears to have passed
<psu> touch wood
<psu> (or anything else that's earthed)
<psu> ;-)
<jcater> psu: you really should get a good surge protector
<psu> UK mains power is usually fairly clean 
<psu> so they are not essentials as they are on some dodgy parts of US power grid
<psu> plus I don't have an uptime fetish ;-)
<jcater> um
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> you keep telling yourself that
<jcater> even after lightning strikes nearby your house
<jcater> when you are at work
<jcater> ;)
<psu> I tend to power down the desktop when I'm not here
<psu> not very GNU/Linux, I know
<psu> but I have to make sure nothing tries to use dial-up during the day
Action: psu goes to cable provider's website to check broadband avail again
<psu> Broadband Internet is not yet available in your area
<psu> We appreciate that many of our customers will be keen to
<psu> 				enjoy the benefits of this service. We continue to invest in
<psu> 				upgrading our network to deliver the highest quality service and
<psu> 				are committed to providing it to you as soon as possible.
<psu> This, as you can imagine, takes time and therefore it may be
<psu> 				a number of months before we can confirm availability of the
<psu> 				service in your area. Thank you for your patience.
<chillywilly> that sucks
<psu> Guess that £18bn debt is hurting them
<psu> as website has been saying that for months
<psu> New KC is up
<psu> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020601_31.html
<jcater> woohoo
<jcater> I mean headquote again :)
<jcater> s/mean/made
<psu> it was just too tempting...
<psu> like Oscar, I can resist anything except temptation
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<btami> hi all
<chillywilly> hehe
<btami> i downloaded pre4, and find a little bug in sample.gnue.conf
<btami> the msg_next, msg_prev icons are the old left_arrow.png, right_arrow.png
<btami> er tb_previus,tb_next
<chillywilly> hey I didn't know there was an xml schema definition file thingy
<chillywilly> however I think appserver should use OIF or an OIFML
<chillywilly> maybe you can go OFIML->xml db description->sql
<chillywilly> brb
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<psu> time for bed
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<siesel> hi all!
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<jetto> hi all
<siesel> hi jetto
<jetto> I plan to some thing I call an  Overall Project Management System. (Issue management, workflow management, resource management, planing management, document management, configuration management)
<jetto> But before, I'd like to test gnue. So I download a CVS snapshot. But I'm unable to have it running.
<siesel> it should be quite easy. which operating system do you use?
<jetto> Linux
<siesel> ok. did you start setup-cvs.py ?
<jetto> yes I do
<siesel> ok, then you should got a heap of new commands to use.
<jetto> gtestcvs choise 0 0 give me No such file or directory: 'donuts.grpc'
<siesel> ok, i first test gnue forms ok?
<jetto> how ?
<siesel> just go in the forms/samples directory and choose a sample like zipcode f.e.
<siesel> ... or much easier. go into forms/samples and call gfcvs intro/intro.gfd
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<reinhard> sorta back
<siesel> hi reinhard.
<jetto> I've go no error but no answer.
<jetto> what I see a debian dir. is there a debian package ?
<siesel> there are still some issues with appserver on win32. f.e. having client (forms) and server  on the same machine, the server says the client hostname would be something like "unknown-javascript-client.netscape.com"  quite weard. 
<siesel> jetto: there is a quite old debian package.
<jetto> you need a maintainer ?
<siesel> jetto: for now you better stay with cvs and wait for the next release for a debian package 
<chillywilly> sup reinhard
<jetto> I ask this as I am a debian maintainer.
<siesel> jetto: cool. 
<reinhard> quick hold him!
<reinhard> :)
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<jetto> «gfcvs intro/intro.gfd ; echo $?» give me «0»
<siesel> jetto: i'm not quite shure who did the last debian packages. but we are in the release phase at the moment and it seems that although there are some who know something about debian packaging, there is no real debian maintainer.  
<jetto> I'm not a real debian maintainer, I'm just an official one :-)
Action: siesel hopes to say nothing wrong (dneighbo, jcater, jamest, reinhard  do you know?)
<jcater> siesel: I'm honestly not sure where we stand
<siesel> ok, but know lets get GNUe Forms running for you.
<jcater> we have 3 or 4 deb creators here
<jcater> but no debs
<jcater> so I dunno
<jcater> this is primarily a Debian channel :)
<jcater> i.e., most developers here run debian
<siesel> debian rules!!!
<jcater> but I honestly don't know where we stand wrt getting debs made
<jetto> Ok that's so important for me at now.
<jetto> I'd create no database and no database user. I think this is bad
<siesel> jetto: the first example (intro/intro.gfd) should work without database.
<siesel> but for the other examples you need a database. The best choice (to test the samples) would be postgres. 
<jetto> Ok I have postgres installed
<siesel> after you started gfcvs intro/intro.gfd, you said you didn't get any output. did the program quited at once?
<jetto> ok --debug-level 5 give some useful information.
<jetto> DB000: [GFClient:115] Unable to load UI driver wx
<siesel> ok. apt-get install libwxgtk2.2-python
<siesel> and btw. : apt-get install python-egenix-mxdatetime python2.1-egenix-mxtools
<jetto> thank you that's just the command I'm looking for.
<siesel> :)
<jetto> that's running.
<jetto> I've got the fortune.
<siesel> jcater: what about adding the check for mxdatetime and wxpython to setup-cvs.py also. It just should show the information and should not quit if the developer hasn't installed wx f.e.
<siesel> jetto: great. step one done.
<siesel> jetto: now you can just go into one of the sample directories, prepare the database with a script and then run the form.
<jetto> Ok it time for me to go to sleep. Very thanks for your help.
<siesel> jetto: CU
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Action: chillywilly pokes nickr
<gemcat> mostly quiet here chillywilly - any interest in reportwriter?
<chillywilly> wassat?
<gemcat> a module, you?
<chillywilly> uh, ok
<reinhard> night all
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<siesel> jcater: the auto created man files are cool. :)
<jcater> thanks
<jcater> did you test one out?
<siesel> yep. man man/geas.1
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<siesel> but a simple man geas still doesn't work. but I will wait for the debian package to do that
<jcater> for anyone else who wants to check that out, you can grab the man pages from http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/man/
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<siesel> night
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<dneighbo> jcater: just for the record man pages should be docbook
<dneighbo> as there is db2man
<dneighbo> and db2info
<chillywilly> color out world blackened!, blackened!
<dneighbo> so kill 2 birds one stone
<chillywilly> heh
<dneighbo> anyhow as long as we have man pages it matters not how :)
<jcater> dneighbo: sigh
<dneighbo> as we need them in order to get our debs official (iirc)
Action: jcater smacks dneighbo around
<jcater> those are generated from our online help
Action: chillywilly throttles jcater
<jcater> so we *could* generate docbook from our online help
<dneighbo> why smack me?
<chillywilly> online help?
<dneighbo> you be mean
<chillywilly> why not?
<jcater> why?
<dneighbo> online help? you mean inline help?
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> gfclient --help
<dneighbo> cool
<chillywilly> what do you use to generate it?
<dneighbo> was thinking we had html (online) help somewhere i was mistakeningly not knowing about :)
<jcater> all that is autogenerated from the program
<jcater> so as soon as someone adds a new command line option
<jcater> it is automatically documented
<dneighbo> cool
<jcater> both in the --help and in the man file
<dneighbo> i think its good idea to have the man page generated this way
<dneighbo> some day i will look at making it generate docbook instead (or in addition to)
<jcater> now the info files that chilly wants should probably from docbook
<chillywilly> doesn't python support inline docs in the code?
<chillywilly> (just as an aside)
<dneighbo> and that way info page, html etc would done as well
<jcater> chillywilly: no, but gnue-common does
<chillywilly> what about the __doc__ string in every module/class?
<jcater> oh, that stuff
<chillywilly> nothing uses that?
<jcater> yeah, that's the pydoc + happydoc stuff ppl have been talking about
<chillywilly> pydoc is a separate util or part of python?
<chillywilly> wooo, kernel build done
<chillywilly> well almost
Action: chillywilly still wants to get NFS working
<dneighbo> it was voted we didnt want to encourage 'docs' in code
<dneighbo> i.e. we encourage CODE comments
<dneighbo> but we dont want to bloat the source with 'docs'
<dneighbo> or at least that was the feeling i took from the converstation
<dneighbo> i still think we should be giving every function a one line description
<dneighbo> so we can use pydoc/happydoc to generate a SHELL
<dneighbo> to help developers see the big picture with opening a ton of files to find things
<chillywilly> I like inline docs
<chillywilly> if for nothing other than to extract them with a tool
<dneighbo> i agree with reinhard on this one
<dneighbo> i dont want to wade through 'docs' to find source
<dneighbo> i do like annotations in code to explain things that might not be obvious
<dneighbo> but api type documentatoin in the code seems superflous to me (imho)
<dneighbo> i suppose i would like it IF
<dneighbo> there was an IDE that could 'hide' it
<dneighbo> i.e. if im in hardcore mode, shut off all the __doc__ stuff so i dont have to wade through it
<dneighbo> but if i need help OR need to add docs i could toggle it back on
<chillywilly> that's what that one python ide thing does isn't it?
<chillywilly> wtf is that thing called
<chillywilly> I dunno whatever the thing is that they talk about in the "Dive Into Python" book
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<jcater> I agree that stuff shouldn't be "documented" in the code
<jcater> however the one reason pydoc and stuff would still be useful
<jcater> is to compare its annotations to the current documentation
<jcater> to see what is lacking
<jcater> i.e., I'd still trust the comments to be more up to date than the docs
<jcater> but I certainly wouldn't want to rely on the comments
<jcater> to learn the api
<jcater> if that makes sense
<chillywilly> yea, well right now some of us are stick rtfs ;)
<chillywilly> stuck
<chillywilly> but it's all good in the hood yo
<jcater> well, one of my gripes re all the fussing about docs
<jcater> is, as far as I'm concerned, gnue-common's API wasn't WORTH docing until this release
<jcater> because we were still testing the waters to see what worked and what didn't
<jcater> why document something that's so likely to change
<chillywilly> that's why I sai what I said right after that ;)
<chillywilly> yea, that's it
<chillywilly> the source you must read to become a jedi you must
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> the source you read to become a jedi you must
<chillywilly> or some shit
<chillywilly> anyone ever use http://www.paymybills.com/ ?
<jcater> no
<jcater> but I did use online bill pay for like 18 months
<jcater> then quit
<chillywilly> why?
<chillywilly> pros? cons?
<chillywilly> enlighten me
<jcater> well, I'm sure you can think of all the pros
<jcater> but 2 cons for me
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> 1. accountability/responsibility
<jcater> I had a few accounts where the payment wasn't properly posted
<jcater> Now, the bank I was using was very responsive and took that very seriously
<chillywilly> hmmph
<jcater> but the receiver of the bill payment wasn't very helpful
<jcater> when they heard it was a 3rd party service
<jcater> and the billpoint people (or whoever it was behind the scenes)
<jcater> weren't very helpful
<jcater> and 2)
<jcater> You lose any "float"
<jcater> if you schedule a payment to be sent on a Monday for a bill due the next Monday
<jcater> the money comes out of your account the first monday
<jcater> so you lose any float and interest that comes along with it
<jcater> but, for me, it was more than the lost interest, but the "minimum average balance" that most accounts require these days
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> of course, ymmv
<chillywilly> I wish my online banking accout bill pay thingy would work like it is supposed to
<chillywilly> I have emailed those people twice
<chillywilly> noe reply
<chillywilly> you setup a payee and then there's nowhere to put the rest of the info like the demo shows
<chillywilly> maybe I am doing something wrong but it is not very obvious
<jcater> if you don't get a reply within 24 hours on ANY question to a billpay person
<jcater> I would NOT trust them to do my bills
<jcater> maybe that's just me
<jcater> but that could be a serious sign
<chillywilly> well yea
<chillywilly> hence I started looking elsewhere
<chillywilly> but they are the bank and have insurance and all that so it's not like it is some company
<chillywilly> but they piss me off
<chillywilly> so to hell with them
<jcater> most accounts these days can be set up to automatically withdraw
<jcater> have you thought about doing that instead?
<chillywilly> I don't want that
<jcater> why?
<jcater> I can think of reasons not to, but all those reasons apply against using online bill pay too
<chillywilly> if I can setup and pay it when I want to instead of at some interval I feel better about it
<chillywilly> I dunno, how the fuck do I know if the money is in there or not...jyst seems like more of a headache and something etra to worry about
<chillywilly> imho
<jcater> I guess that's true
<jcater> I always used scheduled online payments
<jcater> but I guess you can do online and still have them manually scheduled
<chillywilly> well the stupif bank software is supposed to let you
<chillywilly> stupid
<chillywilly> oh well
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<chillywilly> great googly moogly
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<dneighbo> damn jcater got lost at home labirynth i think
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<dneighbo> chillywilly: here is a good radio spot for ja
<dneighbo> http://plug.netpro.to/radio/monster-truck-version.mp3
Action: chillywilly apt-get --purges all alsa crap
<chillywilly> yay! in-kernel drivers rock ;)
<dneighbo> http://plug.netpro.to/radio/plug-radio-ad.mp3
<dneighbo> is pretty great too
<chillywilly> I can use xmms to listen?
<dsmith> chillywilly: Yes!
<dneighbo> chillywilly: you should be able to
<dsmith> chillywilly: Oh. Sorry.
<dneighbo> they are just mp3 files
Action: dsmith hasn't touched alsa in a *loong* time
<chillywilly> I am just tired of configuring the bitch that is ALSA
<chillywilly> modprobe es1371 works so much better ;)
<dsmith> chillywilly: Ya. and keeping it in sync with your kernel and all.
<chillywilly> yea, that's gay
<chillywilly> but they do have alsa in 2.5.x now
<chillywilly> but I don't want to run development kernels
<dsmith> chillywilly: Power management (apm) works better too.  I can suspend and resume while xmms is playing without a glitch.
<chillywilly> in 2.5.x?
<dsmith> 2.4.18
<chillywilly> I might try ans compile one of those for fun some day
<chillywilly> Linux obfuscation 2.4.19-pre9-xfs #1 Sun Jun 2 20:35:03 CDT 2002 i686 unknown
<chillywilly> I haven't tried suspending on thos machine in a while
<chillywilly> last time I tried I think it hung
<dneighbo> chillywilly: were you able to hear those?
<chillywilly> sorry too busy ripping alsa crap out
<chillywilly> hold o
<chillywilly> n
<dneighbo> tick tock tick tock
<dneighbo> i have to run in 2 minutes
<chillywilly> it says it is connecting...
Action: chillywilly waits
<chillywilly> just keeps scrolling accross that it is connecting but it doesn't play
<dneighbo> its cause you dont know how to install linux right
<dneighbo> we forgive you
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> that's almost funny
<chillywilly> but uh well I am too tired and crabby yo laugh
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<chillywilly> s/yo/to
<chillywilly> wuss
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--- Mon Jun  3 2002