riandouglas (~Rian@206.161.123.167) joined #gnuenterprise.
reinhard (~rm@M691P029.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5b-143.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201035.flinthills.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
riandouglas (~Rian@206.161.123.167) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
madlocke (madlocke@p50807801.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
reinhard_ (~rm@M695P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
reinhard (~rm@M691P029.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
Nick change: reinhard_ -> reinhard
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-243-205.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ariel_> reinhard?
<reinhard> here
<ariel_> hi!
<reinhard> hi
<ariel_> i just read the appserver docs an have a couple of suggestions
<ariel_> In the proposal in the gedi section
<ariel_> "GEDI operates strictly ... and does'nt know..."
<ariel_> you can change the word "fields" with "attributes" that is more pertinent to OO, fields is  more DB related.
<ariel_> In  The GEOR section, you can add that object definitions can be stored also
<ariel_> visually, say in a DIA/UML diagram, i think this was also a MUSTA wish.
<ariel_> it can be usuful to write down a table with five columns:
<ariel_> semantic, gcd syntax, xml sintax, DB syntax , DIA syntax
<ariel_> and one row for each feature wanted in the repository.
<reinhard> thanks for your suggestions
<reinhard> about the word "attributes" i agree and want to change it
<reinhard> (i think)
<reinhard> because i think it's important to distinguish between tables/columns/fields (database side)
<reinhard> and classes/instances/attributes (object side)
<ariel_> it could serve as base for writing GEOR itself and/or tools to translate from one syntax to the others.
<ariel_> Ok.
<reinhard> i'm not sure about storing object definitions visually
<reinhard> i'd like more to store them structured and then have a tool that creates uml from that
<reinhard> about the table: that could become difficult, because
<ariel_> can be put as long-term target
<reinhard> a) we might decide to ditch gcd
<reinhard> b) DB syntax doesn't exist for every type of attribute (for example for indirect fields)
<reinhard> c) DB syntax may be depending on database backend
<ariel_> i tought of it just as a base for discussion of what will be in and what not,
<ariel_> if a feature is not feasible in a given syntax leave that field blank.
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ariel_> gcd can be used as a reference only.
<btami> hi all
<ariel_> one more thing.
<reinhard> i hoped that the section "fields" in "features" is enough to define what will be in and what not
<ariel_> i'm not sure i did understand.
<ariel_> i'm not speaking of a table of the repository, i'm talking about a proposal documenr for GEOR.
<ariel_> by the way, one more suggestion:
<ariel_> in the geasv2arch.dia add dashed arrows to indicate dependency, i.e from GOAT to GEDI, GEMA, GEOR
<ariel_> and GEDI has two subpackages: Database Adapter (or is it an abstract class?) and SQL generator.
<ariel_> forgive me, but i have something more to say
Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-96-116.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> hi siesel
<siesel> morning
<ajmitch> greetings :)
<siesel> hi btami.
<ariel_> in the api doc, the call(methodname) of geas-istannce most provide also a mechaninsm for the "signature" i.e. the list of types for parameters of the method and for the eventual return value 
<siesel> hi ajmitch :)
<btami> i sended 2 bugreports to DCL on appserver
<btami> have you seen?
<siesel> btami: I will open dcl at once.
<siesel> hi madlocke, aber nur fast: BONN is my home
<siesel> netcologne spreads out :) btw. where are you from?
<madlocke> augsburg
drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<madlocke> btw. my messages where private that's why i used german language ;)
<madlocke> where=were ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<siesel> kein problem. 
Action: siesel wonders, I haven't met any german in this channel, who lived north of cologne, 
<reinhard> ariel_: that is true, however we don't know yet how to handle this
<reinhard> so we didn't fix it
<siesel> ariel: the signature of a method should be provided by GEOR.
<ariel_> reinhard: i will try to put down a sketch of this doc and send you by mail
<siesel> ariel: as the type of an field can  be accessed from GEOR too.
<reinhard> ariel_: thanks
<reinhard> ariel_: sorry to be rather unresponsive today but i'm at work :(
<reinhard> lunch time
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-eat
<ariel_> if it's whorty you can add to the doc as a base for discussion.
<ariel_> siesel: still this must be put in the api documentation, say documenting the geas-method class.
<ariel_> in any case you have to pass the actual parameters, say filling the method-def structure.
<siesel> ariel: yes. we just haven't talked about it yet. the whole GEOR stuff isn't defined yet
<siesel> method-def?
<ariel_> siesel: I have seen something like in src or src/_feateretest, let me search...
Action: madlocke wants a DCL account... who can do it?
<ariel_> siesel: sorry, methods attribute of GObjectDef.
<siesel> btami: both error occure on win98 too. I have been fixing pw_xmlrpc, so I the error you posted can be closed at once. but there are still other issues I 'm tracking down.. :(
<btami> ok
<btami> anyway, the appservertest.gfd worked with firebird well on woody
<siesel> ariel: passing the parameter is no problem at the moment, because GNURPC didn't check the parameter format on method calls at the moment :(
<siesel> btami: debian rules
<btami> forever :)
<siesel> :)
Action: ajmitch likes debianslashrules.org
<siesel> ajmitch: did you ever heard of the XXX rules counter?
<siesel> ariel: the next step and the next interface to define is the interface to transfer GConditions to appserver. Do you have any ideas for that part?
<ajmitch> siesel: nope
<siesel> its a natural language processing program which searches for "sucks", "rules" on google etc. and creates a statistic. we made debian increase a bit ;)
<ajmitch> ahh.... ;)
<siesel> morning
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-96-116.netcologne.de) left irc: 
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-96-116.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: siesel hates my firewall. :(
<ajmitch> heh
Action: ajmitch needs to hack his deb building scripts
<ariel_> siesel: what about a parse tree of the expression?
<siesel> its a bit complicated to send a whole tree over rpc, so I thought of splitting the tree into single method calls, or by just sending a expression table. But I still don't know exactly how to do it.
<ariel_> siesel: give some time to think about,
Action: btami is away: lunch
<siesel> l8r
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-96-116.netcologne.de) left irc: "Old programmers never die; they just branch to a new address."
Action: ariel_ is away: Sono occupato
siesel (jan@dial-195-14-226-239.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: rm-eat -> reinhard
Action: ariel_ is back (gone 00:28:27)
Action: btami is back (gone 00:57:45)
riandouglas (~Rian@203-206-88-65-dial.froggy.com.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: madlocke -> mad-away
ToyMan (~stuq@65.167.123.51) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> siesel: the LOGNAME environ variable doesn' exist in win32 per default
<btami> if i don't use user/passw command line args, it fails on LOGNAME
<reinhard> <siesel> btami: i.e. we have to insert a win32 check there. did it work if you 
<reinhard> oop
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> that was not compleate
<btami> i'm waiting :)
<reinhard> siesel: please repost
<btami> and agree, the check needed
<siesel> btami: did it work for you when you add
<siesel>          -username -passwd command line options?
mahmood (~mahmood@217.17.224.219) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> trying...
<siesel> btami: i.e. we have to insert a win32 check there
<mahmood> sorry to barge in... I want to install and evaluate gnuenterprise but I could not find proper installation documentation (step-by-step) can anyone tell me where to find them if they exist please?
mahmood (~mahmood@217.17.224.219) left irc: Client Quit
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> mahmood: you have to be more patient with us :(
mahmood (~mahmood@217.17.224.219) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> wb mahmood
<mahmood> thanx
<reinhard> mahmood: what are you looking for?
<mahmood> any idea where I can find step-by-step install instructions please?
<ariel_> siesel?
<mahmood> I looked at all the faqs but none explain this
<reinhard> mahmood: it would be best to check out cvs
<siesel> ariel: yes
<reinhard> we are just very close to a new release and lots of things have changed since last release
<mahmood> I got the snapshot of yesterday but no docs? or didn't i look?
Action: Yurik hates his collaborators. they all think that microsoft rules da world and the best thing that can exist :(
<ariel_> just to know, under common, what a client has to pass as condition to GDataSource.createResultSet?
<reinhard> mahmood: look for files called INSTALL
<reinhard> the correct order to install would be 1. common 2. the rest :)
<ariel_> say my condition is: zip = 123
<mahmood> did that, I installed python2.2 and all installations went well except for the geas that gave me make errors
<siesel> mahmood: do you use windows or unix?
<mahmood> rh72
<mahmood> i'll get the latest snapshot and try again
<reinhard> mahmood: you don't need geas
<reinhard> mahmood: you don't _want_ geas
<reinhard> geas is obsoleted by appserver
<mahmood> sorry, extreme newbie here! thanx for that
<reinhard> np
<mahmood> won't install it if its not needed
<reinhard> you could try some forms then
<mahmood> 'kay let me ask another one please: I use Filemaker Pro, ACT and other tools and would like to migrate to an ERP system that would take care of my small office, would gnue help in that and is it the right product? am familiar with linux/mysql/php but no python...
<btami> siesel: in appserver DBdriver.py line #97 in _loadNextRecord
<siesel> yes i got that error myself. 
<btami> AttributeError: 'tuple' object has no attribute 'get'
<btami> :(
<siesel> but just two seconds ago... so... one moment..
<btami> :)
<reinhard> mahmood: gnue is actually 2 projects
<reinhard> a) create tools that enable everybody to easily write business applications
<reinhard> b) write the acutal business applications using a)
<reinhard> currently we have very much of a) and nearly nothing of b)
<reinhard> so if you are willing to learn python you could easily _create_ the application you need
<mahmood> dox management, crm, and erp is what I understood from the faqs.. but I will do some more reading to understand gnue then will try again... thanx for all your help
<reinhard> but i guess you would have to create it, it's not there now
<reinhard> you're welcome
<mahmood> cheers and bye for now
<reinhard> bye
mahmood (~mahmood@217.17.224.219) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<ariel_> mahmood: take a look at cvs/gnue/docbook/articles/redhat_install.html
<ariel_> too late :(
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) left #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> airel: sorry for answering late: an object tree consisting out of a GCOnditionsObject (top) which is an GCeq and has an GCField (zip) and a GCConst (123) as childs (hope i got it right)
<ariel_> ok, thanks i studying Gconditions.py
<siesel> ariel: basicly a GCondition Tree consist of a list of (a=2) AND (b=3) AND .... just ANDs, because it is build out of an dictionary.
<ariel_> siesel: i have seen
<siesel> :)
<siesel> btami: seems to be a pw_xmlrpc problem, it occurs on unix also. (i.e. I can test a bit faster)
<btami> ok, by tomorrow
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<siesel> wait. ... its fixed....
<ariel_> siesel: there is a plan to make the parse tree more complex (i.e also OR )?
<ariel_> because if not you can pass as RPC a list of structs with three elements (field, op, value)
<siesel> ariel: I thought of an geasList.restrictListbyCondition(field,op,value)
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> good morning jamest
<siesel> ariel: restriction would be AND and a geasList.unrestrictListbyCondition(field,op,value) would be an OR. then it could be that an OR has an higher priority than an AND. 
<siesel> reinhard: btw. a forms (computer A) -> appserver (computer B) -> appserver (computer A) works. (A=Linux, B=Win98)
siesel (jan@dial-195-14-226-239.netcologne.de) left irc: "dinner time"
<jamest> morning
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: Client Quit
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> hi again
<Yurik> btami: hi
<btami> hi
<btami> reinhard: please tell siesel the appservertest is ok now on win32 except
<btami> deleting records
<btami> it fails in DBdriver.py line #369 in commit
<btami> really have to go home now
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: "Client Exiting"
riandouglas (~Rian@203-206-88-65-dial.froggy.com.au) left irc: Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> hello
[09:12] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<ariel_> reinhard: i send you what we told before, check mail please.
<reinhard> just seen hit
<reinhard> um
<jamest> someone last week msg'd me about broken popy introspection but I dont' recall who it was
<reinhard> just seen it
<reinhard> ariel_: thanks in any case
<Yurik> hi all
<jamest> anyway I tried to reproduce the problem this weekend and couldn't
<reinhard> however i'm not sure that i find the time today to look more close
<reinhard> but i will keep you on courant :)
<ariel_> reinhard: thank you
<jamest> btw - i see appserver is running on windows...congrats
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-73-174.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1"
<jamest> msg siesel did you contact me about popy last week?
<jamest> whoops :)
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> <btami> reinhard: please tell siesel the appservertest is ok now on win32 except
<reinhard> <btami> deleting records
<reinhard> <btami> it fails in DBdriver.py line #369 in commit
<reinhard> <btami> really have to go home now
<siesel> reinhard: thx.
<ariel_> reinhard: in any case is important to keep a reference to gcd, also if it is dying, because it is possible to write a gcd2xml tool and save all the work in packages.
<ylamaki> Make problem RH7.2    /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lpython1.5      collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<ylamaki> Might not be the right place to ask but im in trouble
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ylamaki> I have followed the guide here: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/redhat_install.html but I guess something is missing
<jamest> python 1.5?
<jamest> which app you building?
<reinhard> ylamaki: please skip step 6 from that document
<reinhard> *
<reinhard> The apps are installed into /usr/local/bin as gfclient, gfdesigner, gnuenav, grrun, and grserve
<reinhard> jamest: are these the current names?
<jamest> i don't really know at the moment
Action: jamest had no time for gnue for about a month
<reinhard> i think they are not optimal
<jamest> i agree
<reinhard> if we make new release
<jamest> we should clean up the names for consistancy
<ylamaki> ok, I will skip that step
<reinhard> what about gnue-forms gnue-designer gnue-navigator gnue-repclient gnue-repserver gnue-appserver ?
<jamest> i think i'd be ok w/ that if the -'s work on all OSes
<jamest> we should do something with the cvs names too
<jamest> as I don't think they match either
<jamest> setup-cvs.py names that is
<siesel> jamest: do we support MSDOS?
<jamest> IIRC python 2.x isn't available for MS-DOS
<reinhard> gfcvs gdcvs gncvs grcvs grscvs gacvs
<jamest> the problem w/ the g?cvs is that's only one letter for program name
<jamest> er
<siesel> ok. that means all (windows, mac, unix) OS support the long names
<jamest> i mean
<StyXman> MSDOS?!? what that? :)
<jamest> g*cvs
<ylamaki> But if I skip step 6 how do am I supposed to do then, Just make?
<jamest> i wondered about gcvs-forms
<jamest> gcvs-designer, etc
<reinhard> ylamaki: please ignore directory geas, it's obsolete
<jamest> but that's a lot of typing :)
<reinhard> jamest: for cvs commands i like the short names
<ylamaki> ok
<jamest> reinhard: ok
<reinhard> just my opinion, i'm not sold on it
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> however it's not an urgent matter
<reinhard> otoh i think if we change install names then we should do _before_ this release
<siesel> btw. if you use bash etc. there is no much typing gnu<TAB>a<TAB> makes a gnue-appserver
<jamest> i'm happy w/ changing before release
<jcater> I'm not sold on gnue-repclient and gnue-repserver, though
<jcater> I like all the others
<jcater> but gnue-repclient just seems awkward to me
<reinhard> jcater: i agree on repclient
<reinhard> maybe rapeclient?
<reinhard> j/k
<jcater> hrm
<siesel> hohoho
<reinhard> gnue-repserver and gnue-reports?
<reinhard> (where gnue-reports = the client)
<jcater> that's what I was thinking, too
<siesel> just repserver still sounds a bit strange
<ylamaki> Before I go through to much trouble intalling gnue I have to ask... Is it suitable for bookkeping in a small company?
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> ylamaki: if you expect to find a drop-in replacement for quickbooks or peachtree then
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> gnue is actually 2 projects in one
<reinhard> a) creating tools that make it possible to build business applications
<reinhard> b) create the actual business applications using a)
<reinhard> currently a) is very usable while b) is only in planning state
<reinhard> so we don't have end user apps yet
<reinhard> but you could easily build one if you would want to :)
<ylamaki> I've never used any bookkeping software but I though this was the closest I could get for free (money wise)
<reinhard> l8r all
reinhard (~rm@M695P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Don't contradict a woman -- wait until she does herself"
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-243-205.dialup.tiscali.it) left #gnuenterprise ("Uscita dal client").
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-73-174.netcologne.de) left irc: "later"
Nick change: mad-away -> madlocke
<madlocke> hey jamest... have some questions ... :)
<jamest> ok
<jamest> wassup?
<madlocke> sec...
<madlocke> why is there a query button for a form? why not just query at startup?
<StyXman> (uh uh...)
<jamest> because I may not want to pull every record
dneighbo (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<jamest> i may want to input a filter
<jamest> like in my zipcode maintenance form 
<jamest> ~50000 records is a bit too much :)
<jcater> another example... I have a 6 million record customer database, I don't want any raw queries happening against that table :)
<jamest> you can make a form prequery by adding the prequery flag to the datasource tag 
<madlocke> maybe i am too stupid for this but how do you define a filter?
<jamest> press the enter query button
<jamest> then put in std sql wildcard stuff in the fields
<jamest> like if I wanted to search of any city with eb in the name
<jamest> %eb%
<madlocke> ah ok... that's the code for i was seeing... was not looking close enough maybe
<jamest> or if I wanted to match on words like rate, fate, gate
<jamest> _ate
<madlocke> btw the button still says prepare query and not enter query (->tooltip)
<jamest> then exec the query 
<jamest> whoops
<jamest> i think we went to enter query everywhere, musta missed one, or I'm just wrong :)
<madlocke> menus etc. use the term enter query
<madlocke> another question about gfblock...
<madlocke> but more about the tag block and not the object...
<madlocke> is the "block" tag really needed? i am talking about logical view... there are datasources, blocks and entries... why is there a block "between" a datasource and an entry?
<jamest> they used to do more
<jamest> now they handle navigation IIRC
<jamest> also a datasource != a table
<jcater> well, datasources are pretty generic
<jcater> i.e., nothing forms-specific (or any tool-specific) should go there
<jcater> every tool that uses datasources has some logical "layout" or other processing section like blocks
<jcater> e.g., reports has <sections> that handle grouping
<jcater> they logically serve the same function as blocks
<jcater> but handle report-specific functions
<jcater> as we implement block "styles" (e.g., this infamous grid that everyone wants)
<jcater> you'll begin to see the usefulness of blocks more and more
<jcater> that's my $0.02
<madlocke> but visual grouping and data grouping are too different things, aren't they?
<madlocke> maybe i don't really understand...
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> I'm not sure what you mean with the distinction
<madlocke> can i have more than one block for the same datasource?
<jcater> I wouldn't recommend it, but I think you can
<madlocke> it is interesting because if i use a layout manager and not x,y coorinates i will get problems if i can't split block definitions and if they are really needed
<madlocke> if one entry is at the beginning
<madlocke> of a form
<madlocke> and the second part
<madlocke> at the end of a form
<madlocke> but for the same block
<madlocke> visually not the same but for data it is
Action: Yurik is thinking of using SOAP
<madlocke> -> means, not the same region of the form
<madlocke> yrik: i like this, too, because it's something people know... was reading that there are higher goals for gnue but soap should be supported...
<madlocke> jamest,jcater maybe you want to look at another prototype in forms.test
<madlocke> you can see how i did some layout managers...
<jamest> ok, i'll try and look this week
<madlocke> but back to blocks... for the data i don't really need it, right?
<jamest> to just access data no
<jamest> IIRC the new appserver uses blocks now 
<jamest> er
<jamest> s/blocks/datasources
<jamest> without blocks
<madlocke> thx have to look at it...
<madlocke> btw, when you look at forms.test, see how i did the building of the widget tree...
<madlocke> like how i do it, it will maybe be possible to get rid of the many tree walks or at least to remove some
<madlocke> there is also one "layout manager" that can handle x,y coordinates but not in characters... the unit is pixels
<madlocke> because if you font to use non courier fonts you could do that... resizing this for curses should be easy.
<madlocke> other way around you would loose some information
<madlocke> high resolution->low resolution normally always better than other way around
fajun (james@61.154.11.212) joined #gnuenterprise.
<madlocke> form windows (visual basic) you maybe now these special unis that have even hight resolution as screen...
<madlocke> think twips is there name
<madlocke> their
<jamest> we'll have to look thru it
<madlocke> btw. the login dialog will be a .gfd for me too, not hard coded
<jamest> i'm 99% sure the next forms release will focus on UI
<madlocke> ok... btw, jamest, it's possible that you create a dcl account for me?
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> i don't know how, that's a derek thing
ylamaki (~ylamaki@h140n1fls20o18.telia.com) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1"
aprono (~aprono@200.59.78.117) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> aprono: hi
<aprono> StyXman: hi
<madlocke> this old and new trigger stuff. is there a doc about main differences?
<jamest> no
<madlocke> main diff is that i can specity functions or is it more?
<madlocke> specify...
^chewie (~chewie@flemingi.dsl.visi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<^chewie> heya
<jamest> main diff currently is they are moving out of forms into common
<^chewie> #$!#, forgot my Design Patterns book
<^chewie> oh well
<jamest> and that you can easily add trigger namespace changes (functions, attributes, etc) to any gobj based class
<jamest> however they are still too formsish
<^chewie> I think that's the main reason why I haven't committed my very normalized DB to GNUe yet ;-)
<^chewie> so, if you need help separating logic from forms, let me know ;-)  Otherwise my work will be wasted. *grin*
Action: ^chewie has been looking into Proxy and Observer patterns lately.
<^chewie> There was a very nice discussion about Observer patterns on the python SIG in in 1998, I think
<^chewie> and the recent Linux Journal has a nice discussion about patterns, too.
<madlocke> thx
Action: ^chewie starts digging into GNUe Common.
fajun (james@61.154.11.212) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise.
alexey_ (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: madlocke -> mad-away
reinhard (~rm@62.47.246.193) joined #gnuenterprise.
dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> has anyone tested prereleases on win32 yet?
<^chewie> nope
<dneighbo> jamest: very very very slim chance i can
Action: ^chewie heads off to lunch
alexey_ (~alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting"
btami (~btami@195.228.11.31) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> hello
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.."
<btami> jamest: i'v tested pre4 on win2k, except reports
<btami> but just tar.gz versions, not exe (it's too big to download at home)
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: mad-away -> madlocke
<btami> siesel fixed some  appserver errors in the morning
<btami> setup was ok with all packages for me
<jamest> so did we agree on names for the app executables?
<ajmitch> mm?
<reinhard> jamest: iirc you agreed with me, not sure if we need more
<reinhard> j/k
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> gnue-forms gnue-designer gnue-navigator  gnue-appserver
<jcater> gnue-reports and gnue-repserver ??
<jamest> but i didn't know is something was decided on the reports 
<ajmitch> is this for package names or executable names?
<jcater> executables
<ajmitch> hrmm
<reinhard> however i think they would fit well for package names, too :)
<jamest> why shorten gnue-repserver?
<jamest> gnue-reportserver
<jcater> that's fine
Action: jcater is easy
<jcater> just ask my wife
<jamest> that's what we've heard
<reinhard> jcater: lol
<jcater> then should it be gnue-reportserver or gnue-reports-server ?
<jamest> either is fine w/ me
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> flip a coin
<jamest> i know!
<jamest> make a single gnue-reports that has a --server option!
Action: jamest runs
<jcater> grrr
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> call it
<jcater> gnue-reports-cater
<jcater> since a cater serves :)
<jcater> plus it'd pay homage to me
<jcater> mwahahahaha
<jamest> nah, i'm inspired now
<jamest> gnue --forms
daminal (~david@2.specoinc.enterconnect.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> gnue --designer
<jamest> gnue --reports --server-mode
<jamest> :)
<jcater> gnue --do-something-useful
<jcater> Unhandled exception raised: NotYetImplemented error
<reinhard> gnue --config-file=/usr/local/forms.cfg
<dneighbo> um
<reinhard> where forms.cfg must contain the line "mode=forms"
<dneighbo> gnue-reports-server sounds good
<reinhard> :)
<jcater> lol
<jamest> :)
<dneighbo> i do not think there is any reason to be overtly shortened
<jcater> yeah, that's fine
<jcater> it can be long
Action: pattieja is back (gone 67:29:30)
<dneighbo> as if they are having to start the server a lot, we have larger problems than a name :)
<jcater> I'll just create symlinks on my system :)
<dneighbo> only reason im pro longer names in this case is to prevent confusion
<dneighbo> i much prefer gfclient and gfdesigner to say gnue-forms and gnue-designer
<dneighbo> but we are in a better position to not have 'naming' collisions if we prepend gnue- to things
<jamest> gfclient conflicts with gadfly's client program which existed prior to us
<jamest> and gfdesigner doesn't make sense
<dneighbo> exactly the reason the more descriptive names are better for 'protection'
<jamest> as designer can/will do more that "f" :)
<dneighbo> agree
<reinhard> and gfclient is tautological (sp?)
<jcater> well
<reinhard> because forms _is_ a client
<jcater> it's "f"'d me a few times
<dneighbo> jcater rofl
<jamest> it's f'd me too
<dneighbo> not me anymore
<jamest> well then
<jcater> you didn't think the "f"'s stood for "forms", did you?
<jamest> gnue-forms gnue-designer gnue-navigator  gnue-appserver gnue-reports gnue-reports-server
<jamest> is that the final list 
<jcater> works for me
<dneighbo> works for me
<ajmitch> fine for me
Action: jamest is off to break cvs and all previous installs for our tools
<ajmitch> woohoo!
<jcater> works for me
<reinhard> works for me (not that this is of any importance;) )
<dneighbo> reinhard you are close to germany
<reinhard> 25 min w/ car
<dneighbo> what is the 'buzz' there about ibm and german government announcing the GNU/Linux deal?
<reinhard> unless traffic breakdown
btami (~btami@195.228.11.31) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
<reinhard> dneighbo: please rephrase using words i can look up in my dictionary :)
<jcater> what's the 411 on Big Blue and the G going with the Penguin?
<dneighbo> reinhard : i hear that german government signed contract with IBM to switch to GNU/Linux (SuSE I believe)
<dneighbo> i was wondering what people in austria, germany etc (both in the Free Software and outside the community) were saying about it
<reinhard> the decision to use gnu/linux in german government was some time ago
<reinhard> and is regarded a big success for the fsfeurope (who was quite active in that matter)
<reinhard> and the "bundestux" campaign
<reinhard> bundestux = "federal tux" :)
<reinhard> only the contract with IBM to be the one to support those servers is new
<dneighbo> reinhard : my view as a foreigner is 'talk is cheap'
<dneighbo> so while germany STATED some time ago they wanted to use 'open source' (sic)
<reinhard> i don't think the latter fact has gotten _much_ public attention
<dneighbo> it meant little to me with out a 'committment'
<reinhard> it was quite definitive
<dneighbo> when i see the inking of a 'contract' to IBM (which i know is a REAL investment of money)
<dneighbo> that is 'putting your money where your mouth is' (an english expression)
<dneighbo> and i think many americans view in similar way
<reinhard> they didn't state that they "want" to use "more" free software
<dneighbo> its not germany talking about replacing m$, its germany IS replacing m$
<reinhard> but they stated that they will replace n servers w/ gnu/linux by y
<dneighbo> but thats why i asked for your opinion :)
<reinhard> where n and y were known numbers/dates
<dneighbo> as obviously the press coverage here is really poor
<reinhard> just i don't remember them :)
<reinhard> only fact i remember about that is that n == all (!) servers of the german government
Action: dneighbo imagines that about the only news there is that Germany beat the holy snot out of Saudi 8-0 in Korea ;)
<reinhard> lol
Action: dneighbo wonders if people even bothered coming to work the next day?
<ajmitch> :)
<dneighbo> isnt it a national holiday if the German Team has a match?
<dneighbo> or is that only once they get into the quarterfinals ;)
Action: dneighbo is really curious if you all have a Franz Beckenbauer day
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> lol
<dneighbo> reinhard i guess the real question is do the Austrian's root for Austrian national team or German national team?
Action: reinhard is not a soccer fan at all
Action: reinhard is not a sports fan at all
Chipaca (~john@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> yo Chipaca
<Chipaca> ajmitch: hi there
Action: madlocke needs a phaseinit guru
<madlocke> how to i now what i have to initialize in which phase?
<madlocke> to=do
<madlocke> sometimes in code i read things like: this has do be done in phase nn
<jcater> madlocke: try phase 1
<madlocke> is there a doc what to do in phase 1, 2, 3, ...
<jcater> if it fails
<jcater> try phase 2
<jcater> if it fails
<jcater> try phase 3
<jcater> ;)
<jcater> typically, if it depends on OTHER widgets being initialized, it needs to be in 2
<jcater> otherwise in 1
<madlocke> yikes... was already fearing the worst but that it is true i did not expect ;)
<daminal> Anyone interested in bug reports for forms client under windows?
<dneighbo> daminal : YES
<jcater> daminal: is this for our prereleases
<jcater> ?
<dneighbo> you can post here but most effective way could possibly be
<jcater> or for the last release (forms 0.1.1 ?)
<dneighbo> forms-support@gnuenteprise.org 
<daminal> jcater: cvs updated today
<jcater> then, definitely
<daminal> Toolbar is broken in a new and interesting way --
<daminal> 01:51:23 PM: Can't load image from file 
<daminal> 'F:\Python21\shared\images/shared/images/tb_save.png': file does not exist.
<daminal> An interesting path :-)
<dneighbo> doh looks like / arent getting flopped to \
<reinhard> daminal: please try to remove your gnue.conf
<reinhard> there was an incompatible change
<reinhard> and gnue.conf isn't updated from cvs as it is generated on setup.py
<jcater> dneighbo: that's not a problem in python
<jcater> all its libraries do that automatically
<jcater> the problem is what reinhard said
<jamest> wow
<jamest> was that from when I broke things like a month ago?
<dneighbo> jamest yip
Action: ajmitch ran into that the other day cos he was too lazy to bother hacking gnue.conf :)
Action: dneighbo is just trained to always copy his .conf files to backup
<dneighbo> then delete originals
<dneighbo> and install
<dneighbo> verify the standard ones work
<dneighbo> then copy my old ones back and see if anything breaks
<daminal> uhm - I just deleted Python21\etc\gnue.conf, still have the same problem
<ajmitch> daminal: ran setup again?
<reinhard> daminal: could it be you have another gnue.conf somewhere?
Action: Chipaca wonders if getting gnue's setup.py to download base.tar.gz would be too complicated
<ajmitch> Chipaca: base.tar.gz?
<Chipaca> yeah, from debian's install
<daminal> ajmitch: you mean setup.py install?
<madlocke> this is a bug in the ui driver !!
<ajmitch> daminal: something like that
<madlocke> look at the wx ui driver, bottom line...
<ajmitch> Chipaca: why would you want that? :)
<madlocke> it does not use os.path.join...
<madlocke> for image path
<madlocke> it is only: images_dir = GConfig.getInstalledBase('forms_images','common_images') + '/'
<Chipaca> madlocke: wow, that's broken alright :)
<madlocke> maybe other things resolved but this line i just copied from the driver...
<jcater> that actually shouldn't break it
Action: Chipaca eats humble pie *again*
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.."
Chipaca (~john@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "hide"
<jamest> daminal: any luck?
<daminal> Still looking for gnue.conf 
<jamest> cvs install?
<jamest> or running a real install
<daminal> yes, but there may be remnants from an old release
<daminal> found it, C:\WINNT\Profiles\david\gnue.conf
Chipaca (~john@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<daminal> That's been there a long time :-)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> gnue.conf should be completely optional now
<daminal> yeah there are none left, and the path error is gone.
<Chipaca> the comments in GParser.py just before 'char = Typecast.text', would it be ok if I removed that line and fixed stuff until the forms work?
<daminal> Just the same old corrupted png messages left
<jcater> huh?
<jamest> corrupted png?
<dneighbo> i reported that one before :)
<dneighbo> last release i think
<daminal> 02:36:23 PM: Couldn't load a PNG image - file is corrupted or not enough memory.
<dneighbo> er actually even this release
<jamest> dneighbo reported bugs aren't bugs until reported by someone non-dneighbor
<jamest> otherwise they are considered dneighbo induced features
<daminal> getting them through cvs breaks them.
<dneighbo> daminal correct
<Chipaca> daminal: you're using wincvs
<dneighbo> iirc this is problem with cvs not getting/checking things in 'binary' mode
<dneighbo> i THOUGHT we fixed by checking things in as binary
<Chipaca> if anyone of you guys have access to CVSROOT, there's this file you edit to tell cvs that .png files are 'b'
<dneighbo> so maybe this is a cvs client issue
<jcater> jamest: can you make that change?
<dneighbo> not from here :(
<jcater> not from here?
<ajmitch> Chipaca: yeah
<dneighbo> jcater sorry i thought you said dneighbo
<Chipaca> the file is cvswrappers
Action: ajmitch has that here
<dneighbo> Chipaca is correct, but chillywilly to monkey with the cvs files :)
<Chipaca> you want to add a line """*.png -k 'b'"""
<dneighbo> as he has a .cvsignore fetish already
<dneighbo> might as well make him master of getting other directories to have our rules for binary file types :)
<ajmitch> you can also fix up any files which have been committed before that fix
<jamest> this is CVSROOT on gnu systems not in our tree
<jamest> while I can make that change I'll clear it w/ cvs hackers first
<jamest> so they don't come after me
<ajmitch> ah right
<ajmitch> common CVSROOT for all?
<daminal> Chipaca: cvs client 1.10 circa 1998 via command line
<reinhard> jcater:
<reinhard> Log message:
<reinhard>         fixes for the client/ directory changes
<reinhard> not sure you really wanted to do that for the ChangeLog files
<jcater> oops
<jcater> well, those are autogenerated
<jcater> so I don't think I killed anything
<jcater> just wasted bandwidth
<jcater> :(
<reinhard> someone would have to regenerate before release
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> we do that right before the final tarballs
jetto (~jetto@aboukir-101-1-4-rperrot.adsl.nerim.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jetto> hi all, I'm back
<jetto> I have some time to wast yours :-)
<reinhard> in all setup.py the author_email point to obsolete mail addresses
<dneighbo> what address does it point to?
<reinhard> gnue-forms@gnue.org
<reinhard> for example
<reinhard> i think they should point to
<reinhard> gnue-dev@gnu.org
<reinhard> agree?
<dneighbo> um depends
<dneighbo> what is the context
<reinhard> not sure
<dneighbo> my gut reaction might be they point to product-support@gnuenterprise.org
<reinhard> it's used by distutils
<jcater> I think he's talking about the distutils Setup() thing
<dneighbo> if the verbiage is something like 'if you have issues.....'
<jcater> which I think should be info
<StyXman> we go *papo*! 
<reinhard> jcater: yes
<jcater> info@gnue.org
<dneighbo> if its do you want more information it should be
<dneighbo> info@gnue.org
<StyXman> first release!
<dneighbo> otherwise gnue-dev@gnu.org or gnue@gnu.org
<reinhard> however i saw that there is a variable "scripts" beneath that
<jamest> StyXman: what's the URL again?
<reinhard> that isn't updated to new names yet
<reinhard> so i won't touch the files
<ajmitch> StyXman: cool, where can we get info on papo? :)
<StyXman> https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/papo/
<jcater> reinhard: that should've been committed already
<StyXman> er, without the s.
<reinhard> for appserver yes
<reinhard> but not for forms etc
<jcater> hmm
<jetto> yesterday you me some help to get forms run. May I have now some help to get database backend running ?
Action: reinhard has to get up early tomorrow
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (~rm@62.47.246.193) left irc: "All things being equal, fat people use more soap"
<ajmitch> StyXman: the savannah site looks rather bare for info
<jcater> *****
<jcater> Round 5 of prereleases are at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease
<jcater> includes man pages, updated executable names (gnue-forms, etc), and win32 snapshots
<jcater> *****
<jetto> jcater: thats sound great.
<jetto> Is there a section "puting the foot on the stirrup"
<jamest> jetto: which db?
<jetto> why not prostgres.
<StyXman> ajmitch: uh, yes. out savannah admin is working on it
<ajmitch> ok :)
<jetto> where do I miss some thing in doc on w.g.o site ?
<jamest> what are you needing help with?
<jetto> where relation between gnue and db are explained.
<jetto> I see connection.conf but there is multiple connection in it.
ToyMan (~stuq@65.167.123.51) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<daminal> Thanks all - later
daminal (~david@2.specoinc.enterconnect.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
<jetto> is there a doc that explain db config ?
<jamest> you installing from cvs?
<jetto> yes a snapshout.
<jamest> there should be docs in both the common and forms directories
Action: jamest is checking out fresh cvs after dumping his local copy 
<jamest> so I cant tell you the exact file name to look for
<jetto> I see a README in forms/samples/inventory 
<jamest> no
<jamest> there should be a /doc dir in each tarbar
Action: ^chewie still isn't seeing the right images path from CVS snapshot (no tags or branches)
<jetto> no doc for me juste a docbook dir.
<jetto> there is one under forms.
<jamest> hmmm
Action: ^chewie is getting a share/images/shared/images/gnue.png path
<jamest> basically in connections.conf you can list connection parameters and give them a [name]
<jetto> yes, I understand that.
<jamest> so that in your files you can connect to that via the database=name
<jamest> or IIRC our tools should all support a <database> tag in their files
<jamest> the forms tech ref used to cover this 
<jamest> but it may have got moved into common
Action: jamest now has cvs
<jetto> user_guide.lyx may be helpfull.
<jetto> well even lyx can't read user_guide.lyx
bobacus (~rja29@pc2-camc5-0-cust191.cam.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> complains about docbook?
<jetto> lyx dislike "\textclass docbook-book"
<jamest> yip
<jamest> we originally did that file using lyx's docbook support
<jamest> then docbook changed or something
<jamest> i think someone here got it to work again but it was not me
<jamest> you should still be able to read the file in lyx
<jamest> but the Navigate menu is screwed
<jetto> yes I've got it.
<madlocke> btw... is there a way to do spell checking for tex files?
<jetto> madlocke:  aspell -t check file.tex
<madlocke> thx a lot
chillywilly (~danielb@mke-65-29-142-117.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> oh no
<chillywilly> hey are there debs of gstreamer?
<chillywilly> and does the player work?
<ajmitch> chillywilly: yes, i think the question is best for #gstreamer tho?
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> I meant to ask in a diff channel
<chillywilly> not in #gnue
<chillywilly> my bad
<ajmitch> or you could RTFW :)
<chillywilly> yea, but it's quicker to ask you
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> since you are on top of things
<madlocke> chillywilly: you just want a player or it has to be gstreamer?
<chillywilly> well, I want to play with gstreamer if it works
<madlocke> ah ok...
<chillywilly> otherwise I can get mplayer-installer and install it
<madlocke> you know xine?
<chillywilly> I know of it
<madlocke> ok
<chillywilly> never used it
<madlocke> i like it... cause it works for me :)
<chillywilly> but gstreamer is full of cool people, imho ;)
<madlocke> xine has cool ui :)
<jetto> jamest: I found what I looking for in common/README.databases.
<StyXman> he, I'm playing with dvd ripping with mplyer.
ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-4-ip248.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Chipaca> StyXman: mplayer isn't GPL-blessed
<Chipaca> StyXman: :)
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jetto> I'm thinking of making a project planning tools (gantt, perte), do you think it will possible with form ?
<StyXman> oh, I shouldn't be talking about it here...
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise.
<madlocke> jetto: why you want to create a new one?
<jetto> do you mean there is already one ?
<madlocke> take a look at: http://mrproject.codefactory.se/
<jetto> yes I see but it's a personal tool not colaborative one.
<madlocke> help them :)
<jetto> and it's a very few part of my project.
<jetto> bye
<dsmith> jetto: Check out #mrproject on irc.gnome.org
<jetto> take a look at the topic of #OPMS to understand what I want to do.
jetto (~jetto@aboukir-101-1-4-rperrot.adsl.nerim.net) left #gnuenterprise ("bye").
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.."
<bobacus> setup-cvs.py seems to be b0rked
<chillywilly> why do you say that?
<bobacus> Creating forms/scripts/gfcvs
<bobacus> Traceback (most recent call last):
<bobacus>   File "setup-cvs.py", line 327, in ?
<bobacus>     createCVS ('forms/scripts','gfcvs','forms/GFClient.py')
<bobacus>   File "setup-cvs.py", line 15, in createCVS
<bobacus>     file = open(os.path.join(scriptdir, script),'w')
<bobacus> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'forms/scripts/gfcvs'
<bobacus> Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious - for info I just did a 'cvs update'
<jcater> bobacus: rerun ./setup-cvs.py
<jcater> we were making some internal naming changes
<bobacus> Same error I'm afraid
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> do you have a forms/scripts directory?
dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "#OPMS"
<bobacus> no.
<jcater> you may need to rerun "cvs update -Pd"
<madlocke> same error for me, too. just tried it...
<bobacus> Ah...I didn't give the -d last time... rerunning...
<bobacus> OK that sorted it. thanks jcater
<madlocke> here too...
<madlocke> ... but cvs complains about some missing dirs when updating
<madlocke> is this because they have been removed on server?
<jcater> yes
<madlocke> ah ok...
<jcater> you can just manually delete those dirs
<madlocke> ok...
<madlocke> thx
<bobacus> Cool, I made forms crash :)
<bobacus> by clicking on 'Prepare query' then 'execute query' then 'last record'. I'm using mysql. I couldn't find this bug in dcl
<chillywilly> weee
<bobacus> and by "crash" I mean CPU-bound loop
<chillywilly> it hung?
<chillywilly> I think I got it to hang the same way the other day
<chillywilly> forgot to file the big report
<bobacus> Hmm. I get control back (and get a trace) if I CTRL-C in the controlling terminal
<bobacus> Do you want the trace?
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> bobacus: sure
<bobacus> flooded to the channel, msg'd or emailed?
dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: Client Quit
<madlocke> jcater: i was looking at all the phase inits to prove some theories...
<madlocke> one question left for GRReports.py
<madlocke> there is this post init:
<madlocke>   def postInit(self):
<madlocke>     if not self._parameters:
<madlocke>       self._parameters = GRParameters.GRParameters(self)
<jcater> bobacus: email to common-support@gnuenterprise.org
<jcater> with a brief description ot the problem
<madlocke> in phase 2
<jcater> that will get us the information 
<madlocke> phase 1 does nothing
<jcater> and automatically create a ticket
<jcater> madlocke: if you are trying to eliminate phaseInits, I'm afraid you may be spinning your wheels
<madlocke> is there a change to get parameters between phase 1 and phase 2 or could this also be done in phase 1
<jcater> we used to have a single init system
<jcater> and it just didn't work
<madlocke> if i am right the phases do the following:
<madlocke> phase 1: create object relations
<madlocke> phase 2: do datasources stuff
jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201031.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<madlocke> phase 3: prequery
<jcater> yeah
<madlocke> and for phase 1: a lot of tree walkings
<jcater> that's probably right
<jcater> well, the tree walkings will be cleaned up more and more
<madlocke> in the forms.test i try a different approach (maybe not completely different)
<jcater> we are trying to eliminate those
<jcater> actually
<madlocke> there is an object called buildContext
<jcater> we used to have a lot of tree walkings, and the phaseInit was implemented to eliminate those
<jcater> we aren't quite there, though
<madlocke> there i store information collected during parsing
<jcater> buildContext?
<madlocke> like parent objects etc...
<madlocke> for the object creation i pass this buildContext object
<madlocke> if children need infos from parents it is easy to query the buildContext
<madlocke> without tree walks...
<jcater> I'm not sure I follow
<jcater> so is buildContext like a sandbox
<madlocke> i make an example with gfblock
<madlocke> when a gfd is parsed i would store a bfblock stock
<madlocke> stock=stack
<madlocke> so an entry field just takes the last/first entry of this stack
<madlocke> this can be done for other tags/objects too
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I need to look at this
<jcater> I'm not sure I fully understand
<jcater> but it sounds interesting
<madlocke> just look at parser.py and ui/base/driver.py to get basics...
<madlocke> not everything is in there yet but it's improving
aprono (~aprono@200.59.78.117) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<madlocke> will go to bed now... i am back tomorrow...cu
madlocke (madlocke@p50807801.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<StyXman> hehey! there are papo files! http://savannah.gnu.org/files/?group_id=2013
<StyXman> r-e-l-e-a-s-e!
<StyXman> (we made it. uf!)
<jamest> :)
<bobacus> StyXman: What's papo?
<StyXman> it's our little project that uses gnue as base.
<jamest> the fools!
<jamest> ;)
<StyXman> :)
<bobacus> StyXman: just curious, what does it do? (the web site is a little scarce on info, and i don't know spanish/portuguese!)
<Chipaca> bobacus: I'm working on it. 
<StyXman> bobacus: Chipaca will answer
yogurt2unge (~charlie@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Chipaca> bobacus: it'll be mostly spanish, anyway
<Chipaca> bobacus: an ERD for SMOs
<StyXman> yeah, that should be clear enought
<StyXman> :)
<Chipaca> StyXman: s/t$//g
<StyXman> Chipaca: zanx
<Chipaca> how do I upload the webpage?
<bobacus> Chipaca: thanks, I expect I can "google" it from there :)
Action: Chipaca shouldn't be asking savannah questions on #gnue
<Chipaca> bobacus: sorry, s/ERD/ERP/ :)
Action: Chipaca has is TLAs muxed
<StyXman> ah, that's better. I thought we already finished, and where hacking just for the fun of it.
<bobacus> Extra-terrestrial Relocation Project ?? [papo.sql: CREATE SEQUENCE "alienstorehouse_id_seq"....] :)
<StyXman> s/where/were/
<StyXman> er, shhh. don't tell anybody what you saw.
<StyXman> or else...
<StyXman> :)
<Chipaca> bobacus: yeap, alien relocation service is one of the big cash cows of XXI
<StyXman> juajua!
^chewie (~chewie@flemingi.dsl.visi.com) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?"
<chillywilly> why is there no #papo?
<StyXman> chillywilly: we're just four, and qe're here all the time, anyways
<StyXman> and have no bot to keep the channel open
<chillywilly> who all makes up the papo team?
<StyXman> and don't have time. we do nothing here already.
<chillywilly> you, yogurt2unge, Chipaca, who else?
<Chipaca> chillywilly: Chipaca, StyXman, yogurt2unge, aprono
<StyXman> the fantastic four? er, almost...
<Chipaca> there's perlhead, but he's been banned
<chillywilly> uh?
<StyXman> Chipaca: why?
<chillywilly> from OPN?
<chillywilly> or this channel?
<Chipaca> chillywilly: no, his name is shoot-on-sight :)
<StyXman> brb
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left #gnuenterprise.
<Chipaca> chillywilly: if he were 'pythonhead', we might let him come in
<Chipaca> ]:)
<Chipaca> anyway, he's da boss
<Chipaca> poor guy hasn't been able to hack much since he's da boss, but still...
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> back
<Chipaca> some might say it's a blessing in disguise. He won't agree, I'm sure. But then, he doesn't have to try to understand his code.
Action: Chipaca suddenly remembers the logs
<bobacus> haha; and you'll probably end up quoted on the Kernel Cousins web site :)
Action: Chipaca grins evily
<StyXman> Chipaca: don't worry, he doesn't read them. if not, I'm in worst trubles...
<Chipaca> LOL
<chillywilly> you guys all work for the same company?
<StyXman> uh, I'm nervous. can someone whipe my postings during the wwekend? :)
<Chipaca> chillywilly: it's a NGO
<StyXman> just s/^<StyXman>.*$//g
Action: Chipaca goes to find the weekend's logs
<chillywilly> NGO?
<chillywilly> non-profit?
<Chipaca> chillywilly: yes
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> you guys have a web site?
<Chipaca> chillywilly: I'm getting there
<Chipaca> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.vialibre.org.ar/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfundaci%25F3n%2Bv%25EDa%2Blibre%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D
<Chipaca> chillywilly: uh, you could probably truncate everything after the org.ar/
<chillywilly> cool
<Chipaca> hmm, translate.google doesn't like iso8859-1
<jcater> can I get some people to make one last final install test
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease/
<jcater> if these install ok, then these are the release
<StyXman> jcater: install of? gnue? 
<jcater> yes
<jcater> tonight we are releasing GNUe-Forms 0.3.0, GNUe-Common 0.3.0, GNUe-Designer 0.3.0, GNUe-Reports 0.0.1, and GNUe-AppServer 0.0.1
<bobacus> does the release have an overall number or name?
<StyXman> ok, trying.
<yogurt2unge> jcater: what's the difference with cvs??...
<jcater> yogurt2unge: none
<jcater> I just need people to make sure it installs via these tarballs
<StyXman> trying from tarballs
<jcater> the functionality shouldn't be different from cvs
<jcater> but we use python distutils which sometimes leaves files out :)
<yogurt2unge> Tying using tarballss ok....
Action: yogurt2unge downloading
<StyXman> jcater: any install seq besides common first?
<jamest> designer needs forms installed
<jcater> actually, the sequence doesn't matter
<jcater> but forms + common is needed for designer
<jcater> and common is needed for all the others
<StyXman> jcater: ack. *must* I be root?
<StyXman> (sudo is my friend, but anyways...)
<jcater> StyXman: since our current packaging system *truly* sucks, yes
<jamest> what?!?!? do you speak of distutils?!?!?
<jcater> I need to run home... can you reupdate cvs and tag?
<StyXman> jamest: distutils? nah, I just use sudo for root things, if that answers...
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "homeoops"
<jamest> jcater: will tag
<jamest> i was giving jcater a hard time
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> as months ago we read a mail on the distutils list claiming it was pretty much feature complete
<jcater> oops, that last message was for jamest
<jcater> :)
<StyXman> jamest: jcater: I confuse your nicks very easily...
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Client Quit
<chillywilly> why not use the auto* tools if disutils sucks ;)
Action: chillywilly ducks
<jamest> but spend a little time with it and it's focused on python modules
<jamest> not apps :)
<jamest> cause they suck more for python :)
<jamest> it may be fixed now but you had to apply patches not in auto* source to handle python
<StyXman> ok, ./setup.py install on all dirs. trying forms...
<bobacus> Hmmm I have to chmod o+r the .conf files
<StyXman> oh! connections.conf not yet there. just a sec...
<bobacus> rja29@purple:~/gnue$ gnue-forms --connections etc/connections.conf person.gfd 
<bobacus> libpng error: Not a PNG file
<StyXman> form works with papo!
<bobacus> ah, permission denied
<StyXman> 0 hacks needed.
<bobacus> StyXman: are you running it all as root?
<jamest> bobacus: which OS/platform?
<jamest> i've see this kind of oddity on solaris
<bobacus> Debian sid ia32
<StyXman> bobacus: just install steps. now as me.
<jamest> hmmm
<StyXman> same here.
<jamest> that is wierd
<jamest> pwd
<bobacus> jamest: it's file permissions. For some reason (perhaps my umask) none of the files are readable by non-root, non-staff users
<StyXman> I got these when draggin' a text entry:
<StyXman> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<StyXman> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/forms/LayoutEditor/LayoutEditor.py", line 389, in OnMotion
<StyXman> DB000:     self.xorBox(self.__x, self.__y, x, y, self.__ox, self.__oy)
<StyXman> DB000: AttributeError: LayoutEditor instance has no attribute '_LayoutEditor__ox'
<StyXman> but designer still runs
<bobacus> jamest: Having fixed the permissions, gnue-forms now runs
<StyXman> and the layout is not *exactly* as the one from forms
<jamest> looking at error
<jamest> the layout is different?
jcater (~jason@cpe-024-165-193-024.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> just that text entry 1 row up, 1 colum...
<StyXman> nah , works ok.
<StyXman> me eyes jump from left to right when tired.
<StyXman> my monitor dances the rumba.
Action: Chipaca prepares to leave
<jamest> lol
<StyXman> my glasses are *way* dirty.
<Chipaca> StyXman: nope, that's your optival nerve
<jamest> that text thing is a bug
<jamest> sigh
Action: Chipaca waves
<StyXman> jamest: you're near.
Chipaca (~john@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "later!"
<yogurt2unge> jcater: I'll test in my house, see you tomorrow
<StyXman> bye chip
<yogurt2unge> bye
<StyXman> bye yog
<StyXman> astuto sobrino mio.
<StyXman> :) 
yogurt2unge (~charlie@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
<StyXman> <excuse the spanish>
<StyXman> uf! late!
<StyXman> but still here a little more.
eMeow-v2_ (~meow@212.199.197.2) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> jamest: any other test? dunno how to test appserver or reports.
<jamest> that's good enough
<jamest> finding a bug within 5 minutes of testing is enough :)
riandouglas (~Rian@www.stc.successes.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
stuq_ (~stuq@c5300-4-ip248.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
stuq_ (~stuq@c5300-4-ip248.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Quit
<StyXman> wow! I *ripped* a dvd!
Action: StyXman is happy
eMeow-v2 (~meow@212.199.197.81) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<jamest> that bugs is really, really hard to reproduce
<jamest> it's now a "known bug" for this release :)
<StyXman> jamest: ok. should I feel lucky? :)
<jamest> yip
<StyXman> wow. I feel... something :)
Action: StyXman has just contributed to two releases in a row!
<chillywilly> hehe
<jamest> common, forms, designer, reports, appserver all tagged
<jamest> dneighbo: you'd better sit down
<jamest> jcater is moving the tarballs into the downloads area
<jamest> we've released
<jamest> <sprong!>
<chillywilly> woooo!
<chillywilly> it has escaped!
<StyXman> weeeeeee! gnue and papo, hand by hand? :)
<StyXman> chillywilly: :)))
<jcater> ok, it's there!!!
<StyXman> wee! everybody, drink a beer!
<dneighbo> rock
<dneighbo> can someone file that designer bug to dcl 
Action: chillywilly dances around
<chillywilly> file this
<dneighbo> so tonight i can relase to the world?
<dneighbo> i.e. freshmeat and friends
<jcater> um
<jcater> file a bug?
<dneighbo> or you wan to just send to our announce list
Action: StyXman not
<jcater> so you can release it to the world?
<chillywilly> how sweeeet, frreeeesssh meeeaaatt
<dneighbo> and to website
<dneighbo> and wait a day or so then hit freshmeat?
Action: dneighbo plans to only postone or two a day to freshmeat :)
<dneighbo> to drag out the PR
<StyXman> you go fm? we didn't knew where to go... local mailinglist first. till the program grows a litlle.
<dneighbo> congrats to all whom helpd with this release
<dneighbo> as i think we had a lot more people testing and installing than in the past
<dneighbo> and submitting patches
<dneighbo> jcater and jamest extra thanks to you guys as i know you are both busy as hell and probably are taking serious crap from the significant others and work for the final push to get this bear tagged :)
<jcater> you don't know the half of it
<dneighbo> release party my house, lemonades on me :)
<jcater> jamest was yelling at me this morning
<jcater> oh, you meant from the wives
<dneighbo> ;)
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> well, I won't go there :)
<chillywilly> j & j strike again!
<StyXman> bye bye, then. good work.
StyXman (~mdione@modem117-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?"
<dneighbo> so the releases really there?
<dneighbo> if so i will compose somethign for website and announce list
<chillywilly> no they were making it up
<dneighbo> unless its already done
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/announcement-0.3.0.txt
<jcater> one step ahead of ya, partner
<chillywilly> HEH
<dneighbo> did you email it out yet?
<jcater> no
<jcater> proofing at the moment
<jcater> but I'm satisfied with it
<chillywilly> congrats guys
<jcater> is there a geas guy here?
<jcater> I hope I did them justice
<chillywilly> the description?
<dneighbo> o Logs of bug fixes
[18:51] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> er is that supposed to b eLots
<jcater> oops
<jcater> yeah
<chillywilly> I think it does
<chillywilly> it was just to prove that you can make a nice appserver by using common ;)
<riandouglas> Congratulations folks.
<jcater> thanks
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-91-6.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dneighbo> i think it proved common useful :)
<jcater> well, what's cool is look at the changelogs
<jcater> not many commits to anything besides common
<jcater> well, relatively speaking
<chillywilly> yes indeed
<chillywilly> common rocks my socks
<chillywilly> brb
<jcater> any other issues w/the announcement?
<jcater> I need to paint my front door
<jcater> btw
<jcater> in this release, we have
<jcater> 1) man pages
<jcater> 2) mechanisms for spread-out file systems (i.e., everything doesn't have to be under gnue/
<jcater> so, there's no reasons people shouldn't do debs and rpms
<jcater> :)
<jamest> l8r
<siesel> jcater: btw. appserver works on windows too. 
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> jcater: you posting to announce?
<jcater> yeah
<dneighbo> i will post to our website if you like
<siesel> jcater: do you have already tagged cvs? 
<jcater> ok, make sure you have latest announcement from my site
<jcater> siesel: yes
<jcater> so code away :)
Action: dneighbo begs for debian developers to package this buster
Action: siesel finally wants to commit experimental stuff ;)
<jcater> dneighbo: that's the specific reason I did debs
<jcater> s/debs/man pages
<jcater> as reading the debian policy, they expect man pages in the deb archives
<dneighbo> correct
<dneighbo> that was one reason jbailey siad we couldnt be in woody
<jcater> oh
<jcater> didn't know that
<jcater> or I would've done it a long time ago
<dneighbo> um i didnt bring it up really because well our packages were broked so they didnt belng in woody
<jamest> no chance of making woody now?
<dneighbo> no
<siesel> who did the debian packages for version 1.1 ? because the stuff in the debian subdirs in cvs isn't working ok
<dneighbo> maurizo did ones in sid
<dneighbo> jade did ones in cvs
<dneighbo> but that was 2 yesrs ago and they worked then :)
<dneighbo> if i could find good docs i would give it a stab
<chillywilly> there are good docs
<chillywilly> plenty of them
<chillywilly> for making a deb
<jcater> so
<chillywilly> you have to reads tons of crap
<jcater> the announcement ready to go?
<jcater> I added Win32 support for AppServer
<chillywilly> woooo
<siesel> cool.
<siesel> I would liked to add some batch files for AppServer on Win32, but that can wait for the next release.
<siesel> jcater: ready to go
<jcater> dneighbo?
<dneighbo> jcater?
<dneighbo> oh sorry i see
<dneighbo> um i am previewing the web version now
<dneighbo> looks good im posting it
<dneighbo> you are going to send email to the list though right?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> code name "Mike, thanks for the Lemonade" ;)
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> releaes to website complete
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> whatever gnu uses for mailing lists truly sucks
<dneighbo> jamest you still here?
<jcater> he's at taekwondo
<dneighbo> mailman
<dneighbo> ah
<chillywilly> mailman is a list admint ool
<chillywilly> admin tool
<chillywilly> it doesnt deliver the mail
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> aaaaawww sheeeeit
<siesel> does anyone know how the "8 5 +" notation is called? 
<jcater> postfix
<jcater> + 8 5 is prefix
<jcater> and 8 + 5 is infix
<jcater> iirc
<siesel> thx.
Action: jcater thinks its also called Reverse Polish Notation (RPN)
<jcater> but you might wanna verify that with someone else
<chillywilly> yea, I think that's right
<siesel> jcater: I 've just know the RPN terminus in german, so I think its alright
<jcater> I forget with is "Reverse": "+ 8 5" or "8 5 +"
<chillywilly> the second way
<chillywilly> as you can use a stack to implement it
<jcater> that's right
<chillywilly> push on the args and then push the operator pop it off to get the result
<chillywilly> iirc
<siesel> I just create a "GConditionTree to Postfix Term" method in GCondition to send a GCondition over RPC. Seems to be better than sending an object tree
<dneighbo> time to run ta ta
dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "home"
<siesel> I just create a "GConditionTree to Postfix Term" method in GCondition to send a GCondition over RPC. Seems to be better than sending an object tree
<siesel> oops. pressed Enter in the wrong window :)
<chillywilly> lol
Action: siesel getting too tired (3:08 pm). cu tomorow :)
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: 
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-91-6.netcologne.de) left irc: "gnuenterprise rules!"
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-4-ip248.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: 
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
dneighbo (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> fsf uses exim IIRC
<ajmitch> yup
<jamest> someone was asking earlier
<ajmitch> well at least that's what's the sendmail binary on fencepost says
<jcater> for their mailing list?
<ajmitch> seems to be
<jamest> mailman
<jamest> sorry 
<jamest> i thought you wanted MTA
<jamest> so hows the bug count ticker
<jcater> well, it crashes under redhat
<jamest> seriously?
<jamest> damn
<jcater> no
<jcater> :)
[20:49] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> don't you have a door to paint?
Action: jamest should shut up though....that closet door is sitll in need of painting here too
<ajmitch> hehe
<jamest> no release announcement on the lists?
<jamest> and was anything announced on any other lists?
<jcater> the announcement went thru
<jcater> did you not get it?
Action: jcater finished painting while you were kicking butts in class
jbailey (jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
bobacus (~rja29@pc2-camc5-0-cust191.cam.cable.ntl.com) left irc: "[x]chat"
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: 
riandouglas (~Rian@www.stc.successes.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201031.flinthills.com) left irc: "[x]chat"
chillywilly (~danielb@mke-65-29-142-117.wi.rr.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
chillywilly (~danielb@mke-65-29-142-117.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
jcater (~jason@cpe-024-165-193-024.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
fitzix (~fitzix@189.142.252.64.snet.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<fitzix> Hello
<fitzix> dneighbo: Thank you - btw :)
yma (hello@203.195.202.15) joined #gnuenterprise.
yma (hello@203.195.202.15) left #gnuenterprise.
alexey_ (~Alexey@techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dneighbo> hi fitzix
chillywilly (~danielb@mke-65-29-142-117.wi.rr.com) left irc: "booting new kernel"
chillywilly (~danielb@mke-65-29-142-117.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> man I'm telling you the preemption patch makes all the difference in the world
<dneighbo> fitzix: you are far more diplomatic than me
<dneighbo> re: united linux
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> ransom love is at the center of it
<dneighbo> and quotes in the past from him tell me EXACTLY how he sees free software, open source software and the community
<chillywilly> we have no love for mr. love
<dneighbo> so when people say
<dneighbo> 'cut united linux a break' what have they done wrong etc etc etc
<dneighbo> i like the gpl which makes me unamerican
<dneighbo> and since im unamerican i say 'guilty until proven innocent' ;)
riandouglas (~Rian@205.252.49.10) joined #gnuenterprise.
<fitzix> lol
<fitzix> Well, I'm trying to stir up some public dissent and keep them in place
<fitzix> we can't kill UL -- so we need to jail it
<dneighbo> personally i smell another Corel
<fitzix> I wouldn't want to kill UL either... they have the right...
<dneighbo> it will only get worse
<fitzix> me too
<dneighbo> i.e. I was PRO corel
<fitzix> imagine a private code base, held up for 6 monthes
<dneighbo> i mean a big vendor
<dneighbo> using debian
<dneighbo> bundling an office suite
<fitzix> then having to remerge everything just for compatibility?
<fitzix> ugh
<dneighbo> and then stupid move after stupid move proved their ignorance of the community
<fitzix> Yep
<fitzix> I supported Corel [GNU/]Linux as well
<fitzix> until I used it
<fitzix> Corel
<fitzix> Lindows
<fitzix> Caldera
<fitzix> they're all of the same parasitic breed
<dneighbo> yip
<fitzix> hell, without GNU/Linux -- Corel probably wouldn't even have lived long enough to become a Microsoft lapdog
<chillywilly> hey anyone hear the funky remix of the free software song?
<fitzix> chillywilly: nope - link?
<dneighbo> if SuSE or Connectiva were heading this up i would be giving more than the benefit of the doubt (though i think suse is a bit shady too)
<dneighbo> but when i hear caldera is the brain child i know its just a scheme
<fitzix> Both SuSE and Caldera have wrapped their distros in prop. install packages before
<chillywilly> http://frell.dyndns.org/Fenster-Free-Software-Song.ogg
<dneighbo> right but thats what scares the crap out of me
<dneighbo> they both have tried GNU\Linux with a pile of prop shit 
<chillywilly> bitch
<dneighbo> and havent been too succesfull
<chillywilly> hold up
<chillywilly> gotta change some perms
<dneighbo> so now its like lets get together and try to get market share so we can ......
<dneighbo> have a 'standard' linux(sic)
<fitzix> And Caldera is the posterchild of deceit
Action: dneighbo isnt buying that
<fitzix> and then fuck you when you're tied irrevocably into us
<fitzix> yep
<fitzix> I see the same thing stacking up
<dneighbo> if they want a standard linux(sic) all they have to do is all adhere to LSB and such
<fitzix> And contribute back to the official packages
<dneighbo> and i know caldera and SuSE are too greedy to unite for the better of a standard
<fitzix> just use the damned official projects - they're there for a reason
<dneighbo> if they didnt smell a dollar at the end of it, they wouldnt be having it
<dneighbo> connectiva and turbolinux are just flat out broke and desperate
<chillywilly> now try it
<fitzix> chillywilly: thanks :)
<fitzix> dneighbo: no argument here -- connectiva is South America, right?  And TurboLinux is asia...
<chillywilly> it's very funky
<fitzix> Connectiva really doesn't have much of a market there...
<dneighbo> yip
<chillywilly> brb
<dneighbo> what i find interesting
<dneighbo> is that initially everyone was touting that they kept red hat out because they want to upsurp redhat
<dneighbo> which i bought at first
<dneighbo> but after thinking and digging more
<fitzix> Yep - that was the pre-conference hype
<dneighbo> i think they excluded red hat, because red hat is really pro free software
<fitzix> then Love denounced that in an interview
<fitzix> precisely
<dneighbo> and to be honest knows that you DO NOT piss the community off
<dneighbo> or you have marked your own gravestone
<fitzix> http://newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=24025&cid=14744
<fitzix> my last response, which basically commends Red Hat as being more pro-Free Software
<fitzix> and I definitely see them as being so
<fitzix> GCC 2.96 is also a great example of what I'm talking about
<dneighbo> re: gcc thing
<fitzix> Do you think I'm right?  That they may try to fork the projects and overtake their development in order to circumvent the community?
<dneighbo> i think the fork doesnt matter much its the reason that counts
<dneighbo> if red hat did the fork to purposely fsck with other distributions
<fitzix> Agreed -- and GCC is only one package
<fitzix> But, that's not why they did it
<dneighbo> i.e. so that rpm's and such only worked on red hat 7.x and not say on mandrake and such
<fitzix> they did it for performance reasons
<dneighbo> then thats using your market share like microsoft does
<fitzix> and even folded most of their changes into GCC 3.0
<dneighbo> if the fork is because the maintainers WILL NOT listen to you
<fitzix> agreed
<dneighbo> and you need to make your customers happy
<dneighbo> thats what free software is for
<fitzix> agreed
<dneighbo> way i look at it their market share and persistence made the other distros and gcc maintainers get off their ass
<dneighbo> and deliver
<fitzix> I support their right to do it... I also support UL's right to do this if that is in fact what they plan on doing...
<dneighbo> fitzix: absolutely thats what i love about the debate 
<dneighbo> is people are so illogical
<dneighbo> example: 
<fitzix> Heh - I love the guy who called me a FUD spreader... heh
<dneighbo> X is legal but it hurts people
<dneighbo> So I say its wrong to do X.
<fitzix> in a sense, he may be right... but it's valid to doubt those who have proven themselves untrustworthy
<dneighbo> and the rebuttal is
<chillywilly> you FUD spreader you
<dneighbo> fsck you jack ass there is nothing illegal in doing X
<chillywilly> lol
Action: dneighbo then scratches head and wonders how saying something is wrong is same as saying its illegal
<fitzix> lol - yep
<fitzix> Well, emotions run high -- I expected that
Action: chillywilly speads some FUD on his toast
<chillywilly> spreads
Action: fitzix calls poison control
<dneighbo> you know what REALLY REALLY gets me though
<chillywilly> aaaaaw shheeeeeeit
<dneighbo> is here and everywhere else i see people arguing GPL issues
<dneighbo> and UL stuff etc
<dneighbo> i really want to say (ok mister open source militant dick weed)
<fitzix> heh
<dneighbo> exactly how much code, testing, documentation have you EVER
<chillywilly> rofl
<dneighbo> i repeat EVER
<dneighbo> submitted to the community
<chillywilly> "open source militant dick weed"
<fitzix> organizational work, specs, articles
<fitzix> etc
<dneighbo> exactly
<chillywilly> hey that needs to be the winning quote for the next KC ;)
Action: fitzix feels guilty that he hasn't been able to write much code -- been too hectic for me to sit down and just do it... :(
<dneighbo> little esr sniffing leech having money grubbing fuk stains ;)
<fitzix> lol
<dneighbo> and yes im teasing on that last one
Action: fitzix will turn that into his sig
<chillywilly> the latter or the former?
<chillywilly> I like this one guys on the hurd list
<chillywilly> "anyone referring to this as open source shall be eaten by a gnu"
<chillywilly> ;P
--- Tue Jun  4 2002