[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<fitzix> It's annoying because people really don't get that the issue isn't one of legalities it's one of a "this hurts you and me and everyone else"
<fitzix> and then people just say:
<dneighbo> RMS put something on UL at linuxandmain
<fitzix> "This will make GNU/Linux good for businesses and that's good for everyone."
<fitzix> Yeah - I saw it
<dneighbo> and one of the responses just got me so pissed
<fitzix> very well put - basically fsck per-seat licensing :)
<fitzix> I think I know which one you're talking about - I tried replying too but their post system was broken
<chillywilly> http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=83
<chillywilly> ?
<dneighbo> well it was the one where the guy was saying yeah so people who write gpl stuff shouldnt release for solaris or such either right
<dneighbo> and its that logic thing again
<dneighbo> its like where on earth do you get because RMS says if you want to protect your rear as a developer and prevent per seat licensing use the GPL
<fitzix> Yep
<chillywilly> gah, UL wants per seat licensing
<chillywilly> how crummy
<fitzix> chillywilly: SuSE now denies it
<chillywilly> heh
<dneighbo> that he is saying that GPL developers cant write software for non free operating systems?
<chillywilly> but Caldera is still doing it right now
<fitzix> and, for the sake of clarity, UL doesn't so much (it won't even be distributed, per-se)... the other distros will
<fitzix> dneighbo: Which is not at all what RMS was talking about
<dneighbo> Does this mean that all GPL programmers should sabotage their programs to not run on licensed OSes, such as Solaris?
<dneighbo> was the comment i was referring to
<dneighbo> I think you misunderstood his comment. He said, Free software developers, please don't let them license YOUR program per seat. Use the GNU GPL!
<dneighbo> I take that to mean he is advocating that per seat licensing (if they tried to 'enforce' it) would be a violation of the GPL. He stating if you write 'free software', please do so under the GPL instead of a weak copyleft license so that you can prevent these folks from abusing you.
<dneighbo> He states nothing about not having free sofware work on prop platforms, hell emacs and gcc both run on windows.
<dneighbo> was my response
<fitzix> yep - it was irrelivent and missed the point completely
<fitzix> Well, they could enforce a per-seat license on the disk if it had prop. software on it
<dneighbo> not really
<fitzix> but that wouldn't stop me from extracting all GPL'ed software from the disk and redistributing that
<dneighbo> not on the GPL works
<fitzix> hmm...
<fitzix> the "if you can't use this license you have no right to use the software..." clause?
<dneighbo> well for me the issue is they HAVE to be able to separate the things
<fitzix> Yep - that's important... I agree with that
<dneighbo> or they have a GPL violation out of the bag REGARDLESS of how they charge/distribute the thing
<fitzix> In either case, per-seat licensing is suicide in this market
<fitzix> Caldera should have learned that by now
<ajmitch> hi
<chillywilly>   4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program                                                             except as expressly provided under this License.  Any attempt                                                                    otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is                                                               void, and will automatically terminate your right
<chillywilly> r this License.                                                           However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under                                                             this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such                                                             parties remain in full compliance.
<fitzix> how now brown cow?
<dneighbo> if they have a way to separate the things then preventing me from giving the GPL stuff to everyone without restriction is impossible w/o a violation
<chillywilly> gah
<dneighbo> that said, i cant believe these guys are really 'adding' all that much
<chillywilly> funky ass spacing
<dneighbo> in a 3 disk set for example a very small amount is gonna be non-free stuff (imho)
<fitzix> The big thing is really the installer
<fitzix> that's how they've gotten away with it, is what my understanding is
<fitzix> not that they haven't lost most of their customers in the process
<chillywilly> so doesn't this mean they loose their right to dsotribute according to section 4 there?
<dneighbo> but i start to question how tied is that installer to gpl software
<fitzix> dneighbo: probably not very heavily
<fitzix> dneighbo: or, do you mean
<fitzix> dneighbo: how much free software went into making that proprietary software?
<dneighbo> really i think its moot
<dneighbo> here is my theory
<dneighbo> let them kill projects
<dneighbo> they will only cave themselves
<dneighbo> in this market to survive we need to lean on one another that is the POINT of FS
<fitzix> agreed
<dneighbo> if a company comes in and starts screwing projects
<fitzix> I think that if we get to that point they won't last in any case
<dneighbo> the projects will either fight and win 
<dneighbo> or say screw it i dont need this and stop
<dneighbo> once the community stops
<dneighbo> the full burden, of support, testing, development falls back on the predator
<dneighbo> who will collapse under the weight of the responsibility
<fitzix> Maybe I just cast the first stone, or maybe I just stalled the war if they respond...
<ajmitch> fitzix: what? where?
<dneighbo> i.e. if i use product X (who is developed by others) and add something to it or do support or bundle nicely etc
<fitzix> http://linux.com/article.pl?sid=02/06/03/1837241
<dneighbo> i am only putting operating costs into my 'effort'
<dneighbo> if i kill the developeers
<dneighbo> i now have to burden that cost directly eating into any revenue i take in
<fitzix> dneighbo: you kill your production line
<chillywilly> what about the second part of section C?
<chillywilly> er, 2
<dneighbo> btw: when i think of this and the responses to your article barry
<dneighbo> i couldnt help but think of a successful coup
<dneighbo> PHP
<fitzix> My next article will be supporting Bill Parish's analysis of MS' [lack of] profitability
<dneighbo> Zeev and Andi basically took php
<dneighbo> a GPL product
<dneighbo> and rewrote a portion of it
<dneighbo> killing rasmus and the php development team
<ajmitch> fitzix: alright!
<dneighbo> rasmus rather than fighting said fine lets change license no harm
<dneighbo> and we have zend
<fitzix> dneighbo: Derek - it's time to start fighting back
<dneighbo> ask rasmus in private some day
<dneighbo> what he thinks of zend
<dneighbo> and what has come of php
<dneighbo> i will bet he wished he had fought
<fitzix> it's sad cause PHP is really very nice
<dneighbo> ask zend in another 12 months
<fitzix> it's not too late
<chillywilly> hmmm, I argued with him about the license change...he seemed all for it
<dneighbo> bet wish they would have never started to fight
<dneighbo> its expensive holding the burden
<fitzix> yep -- there are a lot of infrastructure costs
<dneighbo> chillywilly: i will tell you, he was for not maintiaing the engine
<dneighbo> he had other interests
<fitzix> the sad thing is that not only the proprietary imbeciles are left picking up the pieces
<dneighbo> but i dont think he is happy 2 years later with the issues and the results
<fitzix> ajmitch: Heh - somebody had to say it. :)
<chillywilly> I think it was him eho I exchanged mail with and then he brought the other PHP people into it
<chillywilly> s/eho/who
<dneighbo> you must understand rasmus did php to scratch and itch
<dneighbo> it was wildly successful
<dneighbo> and he extended it like hell
<fitzix> dneighbo: Derek, we can take this industry -- I have no doubt about... I am more sure now than ever... but we must realize our potential first...
<dneighbo> i think he wsa rather bored with it
<dneighbo> and wanted to pursue other interests
<dneighbo> zeev and andi stepped up and said look we have this almost done, let us take over
<chillywilly> rasmus works for IBM now?
<dneighbo> he basically said 'keep it no cost to the masses' and do what you like
<chillywilly> whoeevr I was arguing with was working on PHP through IBM
<fitzix> dneighbo: hindsight is always 20/20
<chillywilly> they were paying him
<dneighbo> he did at one time, i dont think so anymore
<chillywilly> and that's how he justified the license change
<chillywilly> saying that he did it so he could get paid to work on it
Action: chillywilly is a PHP lackee too
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> we wrote our whole senior design project in PHP
<fitzix> We can never let our guard down... if we do, we'll be pelted by something
Action: ajmitch has never used PHP
<ajmitch> fitzix: that something could be rather unpleasant :)
<fitzix> ajmitch: to say the least
Action: chillywilly compiles a new kernel for his server
Action: ajmitch pulls on his new CS Otago jacket
<fitzix> I disagree      (#14748)
<fitzix>    by Anonymous Reader on Tuesday June 04, @01:12AM
<fitzix>    What you are doing is spreading rumors, and constructing scenarios which are unlikely to happen. I trust SuSE and tehy
<fitzix>    ahve contributed a lot to Linux.
<fitzix>    http://articles.linuxguru.net/view/159
<fitzix> Sigh
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> value added == freedom subtracted ;)
<fitzix> Some of these people might try reading the whitepaper
<chillywilly> fitzix: you listen to that ogg?
<fitzix> chillywilly: not yet... people asleep in the next room
<chillywilly> no head phones?
<fitzix> speaking of which, I've got to hit the sack in a few
<chillywilly> what sorta hacker are you?
<chillywilly> me too
<fitzix> chillywilly: nope... not at the moment
<fitzix> chillywilly: one with a tight budget :)
<ajmitch> sure they've contributed a fair bit to Linux, and also to GNU/Linux
<fitzix> I have no doubt of that...
<chillywilly> bet mine is tighter than yours
<chillywilly> ;)
<fitzix> chillywilly: yep :)
<dneighbo> oh should i respond
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: ajmitch has a caldera tshirt here.... :)
<chillywilly> evil
<dneighbo> things like
<fitzix> ajmitch: But, that's not what I'm getting at... I'm not lambasting distro providers
<ajmitch> won it at the LUG
<chillywilly> blasphemer
<ajmitch> fitzix: i know :)
<dneighbo> SuSE is great they give software to schools for FREE
<dneighbo> makes me gag
<fitzix> dneighbo: sure thing.. the more help I get the better... I'll play good cop you play bad cop :)
<dneighbo> SO DOES MICROSOFT
<fitzix> yep
<fitzix> heh
<dneighbo> only difference is that SuSE gives something that is FREE to everyone and tries to be a hero for it
<fitzix> lol
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> (duh)
<dneighbo> this is gonna sound REALLY bad but hell im not liked anyways
<ajmitch> you'd love to hear what's being done about that crap in NZ - some people have formed a NZ Open Source Society (seems to be quite a few FS supporters tho), plannign things like a special K12LTSP distro for schools here
<dneighbo> when someone posts a story about BUSINESS and BUSINESS MODELS and FINANCIALS
<dneighbo> and in the picture looks about 15
<dneighbo> i have to almost laugh
<chillywilly> :P
<fitzix> dneighbo: I'm sure you can work something into it like "how much you trust the distro doesn't matter -- actions speak louder than words"
<dneighbo> a 15 year old can be extremely smart
<dneighbo> savy even
<dneighbo> but wisdom only comes with experience
<dneighbo> and not many businesses are offering experience to 15 year olds 
<dneighbo> imho
<fitzix> yep
<fitzix> and the truly wise person understands that he doesn't know everything
<fitzix> and that before you can trust implicitely, you must understand implicitely
<fitzix> certainly not an easy thing
<fitzix> Not something that a press release can solve, that's for sure
<chillywilly> join us now and
<chillywilly> share the software
<fitzix> wow - 18 talkbacks already ... that
<fitzix> s a bit for newsforge
<chillywilly> you'll be free hackers
<chillywilly> you'll be free
<chillywilly> sorry I got that funky song in my head
<fitzix> you will see
<fitzix> it happened to me
<fitzix> you will be
<chillywilly> er?
<fitzix> by a power of three
<ajmitch> fitzix: you're a legend!
<fitzix> and in a tree
<chillywilly> that's not how the song goes dangit
<fitzix> but never flee
<fitzix> ajmitch: eh?
<ajmitch> fitzix: your article, the talkbacks!
Action: ajmitch is a fitzix fanboy now
<fitzix> ajmitch: heheh - quit placating my ego :)... I just wrote something and sent it to Grant and he posted it... 
<chillywilly> you need help ajmitch
<ajmitch> chillywilly: of course
<fitzix> lol
<chillywilly> join us now and
<fitzix> http://www.fitzixfanboys.com
<chillywilly> share the software
<ajmitch> chillywilly: i already agreed that with my friend this afternoon
<chillywilly> you'll be free
<chillywilly> hackers
<chillywilly> you'll be free
<chillywilly> that's some darn tootin good english
<dneighbo> oh dear im going off :)
<dneighbo> you must stay tuned for this one
<ajmitch> dneighbo: ?
<ajmitch> will most certainly do so
<fitzix> I wonder how many GNU/Linux people don't use X
<fitzix> eh>
<fitzix> ?
<chillywilly> X winders?
Action: ajmitch wants a true GNU system
<fitzix> chillywilly: heh
<fitzix> dneighbo: what's up?
<chillywilly> did I stutter damnit?
Action: chillywilly was waiting for that responce
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> me too
<chillywilly> the Hurd needs to be ported to L4
<chillywilly> and needs lots if bug squishing
<ajmitch> yes, but even then the best we can get is a Debian distro of the GNU system
<ajmitch> not an official GNU release :)
<chillywilly> you want a GNU distro?
<chillywilly> I think debian works well enough
<ajmitch> GNU 0.2 was released ages ago
<fitzix> ajmitch: They're supposedly working on something
<ajmitch> chillywilly: debian is quite political - see the recent flamewars over the Hurd :)
<chillywilly> yep, I saw them
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<ajmitch> fitzix: so i've heard
<chillywilly> debian-hurd was a wasteland
<ajmitch> chillywilly: no, you caught the fraction that were CC'ed to debian-hurd
<ajmitch> debian-devel was much much hotter ;)
<chillywilly> interesting
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<chillywilly> Setting up kernel-image-2.4.18 (custom.3.1.frell) ...
<chillywilly> Failed to create initrd image.
<chillywilly> dpkg: error processing kernel-image-2.4.18 (--install):
<chillywilly>  subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 2
<chillywilly> Errors were encountered while processing:
<chillywilly>  kernel-image-2.4.18
<ajmitch> ok, most of one thread was CC'ed to d-h
<chillywilly> :-/
<ajmitch> but there was another hurdish thread
<chillywilly> and what was going on there?
<chillywilly> dude this sucks that I can install this deb
<chillywilly> I bet I am missing the initrd tools
<chillywilly> (duh)
Action: dneighbo wonders how long it takes for a comment to show
Action: ajmitch reloads newsforge article to check for new flames
<chillywilly> s/can/can't
<chillywilly> fitzix: you still here?
<chillywilly> fitzix: we have a new release
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: ajmitch needs crack
<chillywilly> lol
Action: chillywilly is away: 
<dneighbo> http://linux.com/comments.pl?sid=24025&cid=14751
Action: chillywilly is away: 
<dneighbo> oh i am just naughty sometimes
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> no dun
<chillywilly> where'd my crack message go?
<chillywilly> s/dun/fun
Action: ajmitch wishes chillywilly would stop that
<fitzix> bravo! :)
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<chillywilly> :(
<ajmitch> yo DrMiaow
<fitzix> dneighbo: Great response
<chillywilly> you're all just a bunch of jealous little bitches
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: chillywilly runs far away
Action: DrMiaow coughs
<ajmitch> chillywilly: let me slap you, big boy
<ajmitch> DrMiaow: keep your germs on your side of the tasman, please :)
<chillywilly> fudge
<chillywilly> is it me or does cramfs sound funny?
<fitzix> How can that person make a comment like "Red Hat should model SuSE and put work into kernel development..." etc
<ajmitch> hah
<fitzix> ummm...
<ajmitch> who does Alan Cox work for?
<fitzix> Red Hat only employs.. Alan Cox...
<ajmitch> how many kernel hackers do they have?
<fitzix> he's only a minor contributor
<ajmitch> and the glibc & gcc hackers...
<fitzix> yep
<chillywilly> Alan Cox is a minor contributor?
<fitzix> although I dislike Ulrich Drepper after his rant last year
<ajmitch> yeah
<fitzix> chillywilly: I was being sarcastic :)
<chillywilly> sure you were
<ajmitch> i mean, debian hardly contributes back to the community, it doesn't employ anyone :)
<fitzix> chillywilly: If you could see my face, it would have been contorted
<fitzix> :)
<chillywilly> I've never ever seen your face period
<fitzix> ajmitch: Damn Free Software developer -- leaches!
Action: fitzix breaks free
<fitzix> Ransom Love possessed me...
<fitzix> ugh
<dneighbo> i didnt even go there
<dneighbo> but when you see
<dneighbo> alan cox
<dneighbo> havoc pennington
<dneighbo> owen taylor
<dneighbo> etc on the list of redhat employees
<dneighbo> and previously
<ajmitch> ah yes, core gtk+ and gnome hackers
<fitzix> yep
<dneighbo> miguel de icaza (iirc)
<fitzix> was he?
<ajmitch> *cough*
<dneighbo> mandrake 
<dneighbo> er geoff whatever
<dneighbo> and rasterman
<ajmitch> yeah, try
<dneighbo> (enlightenment team)
<dneighbo> at one time
<fitzix> Rasterman works for VA now, right?
<ajmitch> yup
<dneighbo> etc etc
<chillywilly> weee
<dneighbo> these are some of the top guys
<fitzix> yep
<dneighbo> and red hat employeed them when NO distros were shipping their works
<dneighbo> i remember red hat was only one taking a chance on gnome
<fitzix> dneighbo: I'd still use E if they'd just make more timely releases :)
<DrMiaow> and redhat gave us cygwin :)
<dneighbo> it cost them all the share that is now belonging to mandrake (imho)
<fitzix> I remember RH 5.2 which had the GNOME preview on the CD
Action: chillywilly cuddles up with hsi Gnome
<DrMiaow> but i'm not sure if its a Good Thing
<dneighbo> as iirc RH 5.2 or 6.0 shipped with gnome instead of KDE
<chillywilly> I love you gnomie
<chillywilly> your my best friend
<fitzix> Well, mandrake was RH with improvements... so, yeah - RH created mdk...
<chillywilly> I don't need all these irc lusers
<chillywilly> all I need is you baby
<dneighbo> the one that i used to be able to always hit folks with (but i dont think its true as of 7.x
<dneighbo> ALL work done by Red Hat to existing Free Software was under copyright to FSF
<dneighbo> not RH
<fitzix> DrMiaow: Actually, Cygnus Solutions created cygwin, which was later bought by RH)...
<dneighbo> which to me says a BUTT LOAD about how they feel
<fitzix> dneighbo: I'm not sure that that's true anymore... 
<fitzix> yep
<dneighbo> now i think that ximian, eazel and others started working on gnome and such
<fitzix> but with Cygnus came Michael Tiemann -- who is basically true FS
<dneighbo> red hat started putting copyright redhat instead of just defacto going FSF
<fitzix> dneighbo: still, though, I don't think that RH has turned any bad corners... as long as they enforce the GNU GPL, they're fine
<chillywilly> brb
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<fitzix> well all - time for bed - it's 2 AM
<fitzix> dneighbo: thank you - heh, I was beginning to wonder if anyone understood
<ajmitch> night fitzix
<fitzix> ajmitch: adios my friend... :)
<ajmitch> cya round
<fitzix> I'll try to be in IRC more often... been focusing on working on things when I get the chance
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<chillywilly> harro
<ajmitch> ok
<fitzix> chillywilly: 'night dude - time for bed
<chillywilly> damnit what's the config file for NFS?
<chillywilly> night
<ajmitch> NFS == No File is Safe
<fitzix> NFS == Not For Storage
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> anyway
<fitzix> NFS == Negating File Security
<chillywilly> NFS = No Fucking Sanity
<fitzix> NFS == Never Forget Smitty
<fitzix> heh
<fitzix> NFS != Cat5
<chillywilly> oooh I remember now
<chillywilly>  /etc/exports
<chillywilly> no thanks to you people
<fitzix> chillywilly: always at your service
<fitzix> later all
<fitzix> 'night
<fitzix> falling asleep
<ajmitch> night
<fitzix> will fall out of chair and die of a concussion ... which would suck
<fitzix> :)
<fitzix> later
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<chillywilly> hey ajmitch you got any ports open on your firewall for NFS?
<chillywilly> I assume you would need to open some things up
<ajmitch> i hope not
<chillywilly> er, maybe not
<chillywilly> nevermind
<chillywilly> I need sleep
<ajmitch> yes
<chillywilly> bah, it still hangs
<ajmitch> fixit then
<chillywilly> when I go to mount the NFS volume the mount command just sits there
<ajmitch> make sure you have portmap running
<chillywilly> I do
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> frell:/etc# ps ax | grep portmap
<chillywilly>   309 ?        S      0:00 /sbin/portmap
<chillywilly> Jun  4 01:06:47 frell rpc.mountd: authenticated mount request from obfuscation.dyndns.org:838 for /usr/local/share/movies (/usr/local/share/movies)
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> must be a hosts.deny/allow problem?
<chillywilly> portmap: server localhost not responding, timed out
[01:11] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> lockd_up: makesock failed, error=-5
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> that's form the client machine
<chillywilly> I need to install more here
<chillywilly> weee
<chillywilly> O got NFS working
<chillywilly> s/O/I
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> time for bed
<chillywilly> g'night ajmitch
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Action: dneighbo still sits awake, darn world cup matche should be starting soon
<ajmitch> hehe
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<siesel> morning
<Yurik> siesel: morning
<dneighbo> morning
<dtm> roger, roger.
<dtm> Doctor.
[03:10] Last message repeated 3 time(s).
Action: dtm shakes everyone's hand at least twice
<dtm> morning, Doctor
<dtm> roger, roger
<dtm> roger, Doctor Morning
<dtm> morning, Morning
Action: ajmitch sedates dtm
<dtm> hey you're not Doctor Mornnnnnnnnnnshshhhhhfff.......
Action: dtm twitches and carries on the greeting process in his sleep, as ajmitch kindly performs dtm's IT tasks for him
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<btami> hi all
<siesel> hi btami
<btami> siesel: hello
Action: btami is away: work
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<dtm> is anyone here able to give named configuration help?
<dtm> for my zone files
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<DrMiaow> yes
<DrMiaow> i speak fluent named
<dtm> DrMiaow: Excellent.
<dtm> DrMiaow: Roger, Doctor.
<ajmitch> my condolences, DrMiaow
<dtm> DrMiaow: i have a dyndns.org server.  i would like to server all my domains from here.
<dtm> my initial plan was to have a primary dns here, which did zone transfers to secondary.com.  i'd update my primary server's IP address with secondary.com whenever it rarely changes.  then only have secondary.com listed in my registrar because they're static.
<dtm> DrMiaow: so are you with me so far? :)
<DrMiaow> dtm: yes
<DrMiaow> dtm: use a CNAME and make sure your zone had a low TTL
<dtm> DrMiaow: http://home.smuckola.org/f-c-c.com.hosts.text  <--- check that out
<dtm> my named refuses to load it
<DrMiaow> dtm: I think the format is wrong... hang on..
<dtm> ok
<DrMiaow> ttl goes between the @ and the IN
<dtm> oh really
<DrMiaow> depends on the version of bind.. but modern binds do...
<DrMiaow> get rid of $ttl 		4H
<dtm> mine's 8.2.3
<DrMiaow> first line should be
<DrMiaow> @	86400	IN	SOA	ns.home.smuckola.org. hostmaster.f-c-c.com. (
<dtm> ok done
<DrMiaow> @ 86400 IN SOA ns.home.smuckola.org. hostmaster.f-c-c.com. (
<dtm> 86400 == 1D, right?
<dtm> hmmm
<dtm> are you sure i should put that high of a ttl on a dyndns.org?
<dtm> i was thinking more like < 1H
<dtm> like 10M
<DrMiaow> yep... whatever works for yoy
<dtm> well, that's what dyndns.org has
<DrMiaow> ns.home.smuckola.org does not resolve
<dtm> ok now i get the same errors
<dtm> that's correct; it's an internal hostname
<dtm> will that be a fatal problem
<dtm> i was concerned about that
<dtm> should i set that to be smuckola.dyndns.org
Action: dtm whispers to ajmitch, "this guy _is_ fluent in named."
Action: ajmitch wants to setup named properly as well!!
<DrMiaow> try removing the cnames for now... cut it back till it starts working
<ajmitch> since i'm not sure if i can use subdomain.ajmitch.dhis.org, for example
<dtm> Jun  4 02:54:42 Datums named[16198]: Zone "f-c-c.com" (file /var/named/f-c-c.com.hosts): No default TTL ($TTL <value>) set, using SOA minimum instead
Action: ajmitch has bind9 on here
<dtm> Jun  4 02:54:42 Datums named[16198]: /var/named/f-c-c.com.hosts:10:f-c-c.com: CNAME and OTHER data error
<dtm> ajmitch: that's coz you're l33t
<DrMiaow> phone
<dtm> DrMiaow: i get a bunch of those CNAME related errors due to each line with a CNAME and then this one:
<dtm> Jun  4 02:54:42 Datums named[16198]: master zone "f-c-c.com" (IN) rejected due to errors (serial 2002060500)
<DrMiaow> are you incrementing your serial number each time you try something new?
<dtm> yessir
<ajmitch> if i get a domain, i'll probably just host DNS on my boss' server anyway :)
<ajmitch> i'm sure he won't mind much :)
<DrMiaow> remove the cnames for now... what does your master record look like in named.conf ?
<dtm> i removed the cnames and all is well
<DrMiaow> ok..
<DrMiaow> lemme check...
<dtm> http://home.smuckola.org/named.conf.text
<dtm> see that.
Action: ajmitch goes zzzz now
Action: dtm adds one CNAME and it works
<siesel> ajmitch: night
<dtm> ajmitch: good luck with that
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<DrMiaow> cool. add one more
<dtm> DrMiaow: oh wait.. it didn't work.  it doesn't like it if i put the "f-c-c.com." CNAME entry
<dtm> if i put a normal hostname with no period at the end, it works
<dtm> but not that one
<dtm> look at it right now
<dtm> doesn't work
<dtm> if i removed that one period at the end of 'f-c-c.com.' it would work
<DrMiaow> get rid of the f-c-c.com
<DrMiaow> it whould still work...
<dtm> but i obviously require it  :(
<dtm> i need a host named f-c-c.com
<DrMiaow> try it :)
Action: dtm hears and obeys
<DrMiaow> the last line should be IN	CNAME	smuckola.dyndns.org.
<dtm> must i specify each hostname?
<DrMiaow> "IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."
<dtm> ok
<DrMiaow> yes.. but no need to do the first
<DrMiaow> "IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."
<DrMiaow> then
<DrMiaow> "www IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."
<DrMiaow> etc...
<dtm> no if i have "IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org." alone, it doesn't work
<DrMiaow> that will give you  f-c-c.com and  www.f-c-c.com
<Isomer> try "@ IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."
<DrMiaow> also IN	MX	100 smtp.f-c-c.com.
<DrMiaow> bah.. dumb tabs
<dtm> ok look at it now
<dtm> doesn't wokr
<dtm> i'll do what DrMiaow just said
<DrMiaow> replace smtp.f-c-c.com.
<DrMiaow> with smuckola.dyndns.org.
<dtm> look at it now.  doesn't work.
<dtm> Isomer: thanks for your input, btw
<DrMiaow> PING www.f-c-c.com (63.89.99.73): 56 data bytes
<DrMiaow> works for me
<dtm> that's the wrong one
<dtm> i haven't disabled that dns, nor removed it from the registry
<dtm> so that's a different host
<dtm> i'm starting with step 1
<dtm> i registered with dyndns.org and secondary.com
<dtm> now i'm making a place to transfer to
<Isomer> np :)
<dtm> so, what now
<dtm> ?
<DrMiaow> ok.. just go back to using the full name in the cname... that worked before for you?
<dtm> DrMiaow: did you look at my current zone?
<dtm> reload your view of that
<dtm> do i need that "@" host entry?
<dtm> er, CNAME entry?
<DrMiaow> got it.. and thats not working? replace that @ IN CNAME with f-f-c.com IN CNAME
<dtm> you mean "f-c-c.com. IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."  ?
<dtm> coz that wont work
<DrMiaow> not f-c-c.com. f-c-c.com
<dtm> ok that works
<dtm> should the SOA be smuckola.dyndns.org?  i.e. a host that publicly resolves?
<dtm> i would think so
<DrMiaow> yes.. but as long as you primary and secondaries resolve its not that important...
<dtm> you mean the primary and secondary as listed in the registry?
<DrMiaow> yes
<dtm> hmm
<dtm> ok well that'll always happen since it's secondary.com
<dtm> ok well i dont know why, but f-c-c.com is resolving.
<dtm> i would think that it shouldn't because i didn't have a "." at the end
<dtm> or am i mistaken in that assumption
<DrMiaow> it should not.. what you have just added should be  f-c-c.com.f-c-c.com
<dtm> that's what i thought
<DrMiaow> can you add more than one CNAME without it breaking?
<dtm> f-c-c.com.f-c-c.com is a nickname for smuckola.dyndns.org
<dtm> yes
<dtm> i have www
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<DrMiaow> and it works?
<dtm> my stupid firewall script isn't allowing external dns connectoins
<dtm> yes it works
<DrMiaow> yes.. I tried to do a zone transfer before and I got blocked
<dtm> :(
<dtm> friggin thing.
<DrMiaow> you could always try "* IN CNAME smuckola.dyndns.org."
<DrMiaow> thats will make anything.f-c-c.com resolve to smuckola.dyndns.org
<dtm> oh geez, well that works!  :)
<dtm> that's what i wanted.  :)  thanks.
<dtm> ok now i must open up my firewall.  UNLEASH THE UDP 53!!
<dtm> PUBLIC     udp  --  0.0.0.0/0            66.135.135.55      udp dpt:53 
<dtm> ok i have that line from 'iptables -L -n' and still public dns isn't reachable
<DrMiaow> and tcp
<dtm> same for tcp
<dtm> that's just wrong.
<dtm> that right there says it should work
<dtm> this is the gshield iptables script.  i edited its conf to explicitly allow public dns served directly from the firewall host.
<dtm> then flushed, then restarted
<dtm> how very ill.
<DrMiaow> whats wrong?
<dtm> it refuses the connections but my firewall isn't logging it.
<dtm> D0H
<dtm> never mind.
<dtm> named isn't listening!
<dtm> hmmmm   since i have a dynamic public address, i probably should just have named listen on *
<dtm> right?
<dtm> i can't specify a hostname like smuckola.dyndns.org as the public named interface :)
<dtm> DrMiaow: if i remove the "listen-on" line, as i just did, should that work?  it doesn't seem to.
<dtm> you know what else is insane?  if you do 'whois f-c-c.com' you can clearly see it's registered with gandi.net.  but their web interface disavows all knowledge of it.
<dtm> this is all evil crap
<siesel> l8r
<dtm> it's good technology but something conspires against me!
<dtm> siesel: l8r
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<DrMiaow> hmm
<DrMiaow> yes
<DrMiaow> listen on * or you will have to reboot named every time you get an ip
<dtm> ok
<dtm> it doesn't work as is.
<dtm> listen-on { *; };
<dtm> is that correct?
<dtm> that'll probably be my final named question for ya tonight, DrMiaow  :)
<dtm> thanks
<dtm> if i have the above listen-on , it doesn't work
<dtm> if i comment listen-on totally out, as it is now, named only explicitly listens on its internal address
<dtm> which is weird because i'm not listing any one IP addr to listen on, and this server has many internal IP addresses.
<dtm> not just the one i used to have named on.
<dtm> so it oughtta be listening on all of those plus the dynamic public one afaik
<dtm> that sucks.
<dtm> AHA  it required a restart, not just a relaod.
<dtm> HELL YES   i just queried my public interface from a remote public client, and it told it to @*)# off.
Action: dtm strokes his precious, precious named
<dtm> let the hax0ring begin
<dtm> i hope 8.2.3 isn't too vulnerable  :(
<dtm> i am on a ppc, so i tihnk that'll keep some attacks at bay
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<eugeneai> hi! anybody alive?
<dtm> i think some of the named exploits are binary-specific buffer overflows, and ppc is not only not ia32 but it's somehow buffer overflow resistant from waht i've heard
<dtm> eugeneai: hi
<eugeneai> I have a question.
<eugeneai> Did the developers estimated the productivity of the gnuenterprize sulution?
<dtm> eugeneai: can you restate that question please?
<dtm> i dont understand  :)
<eugeneai> Consider the approach to build GNUe (e.g. Python, used technology, decision made, etc), that the developers of the GNUe are to use. What do You can say (estimate) about thrououtput of the enterprise system built on the base of GNUe. Were there any estimations? 
<dtm> eugeneai: are you talking about performance?
<dtm> speed?
<eugeneai> Yes.
<dtm> i'm not sure... you'll have to either wait a while in here or ask that on the mailing list
<dtm> i'm sure performance is a huge priority.  it's intended to scale.
<eugeneai> I get a problem: I must suggest to administration of Irkutsk Region (Russia, Siberia) an approach to build a system, which should automatize our Medical Institutions.
<eugeneai> To GNUe it means, that possibly it can get new Sponsored Developers, If GNUe will appropriate.
<eugeneai> Are there any at least prototype or testing enterprise programms?
<dtm> eugeneai: GNUe is in production at several sites
<dtm> including for a large county government in the US
<dtm> i dont know how that compares to your needs though.
<dtm> eugeneai: GNUe does work very well with corporate and volunteer sponsors
<dtm> i mean, with corporate and volunteer contributors
<eugeneai> So, i'll try to search the information on the application. Second question: How do You organized? (Cfedral or Bazzar). I have no experience in such a software development (I mean cathedral). (i'm scientist).
<dtm> hmmm
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> eugeneai: that's a fascinating question :)
<dtm> eugeneai: i think it's bazaar because it's a volunteer effort, but it is voluntarily organized
<dtm> eugeneai: the group has chosen a leader
<dtm> eugeneai: individuals defer to others' expertise and leadership
<dtm> eugeneai: they trust each other, but they double-check their work
<dtm> eugeneai: there are several leaders in various projects, and one overall project leader
<dtm> eugeneai: they choose to be that way, and there's nothing requiring it.  it's just a good idea.
<dtm> eugeneai: you should stay in this channel and you should participate in the mailing lists :)
<dtm> eugeneai: we'd be glad to have you
<dtm> i'm going to bed
<dtm> good night all!
<eugeneai> Why did You decide to be involved in the project. Did You consider other alternatives (if any)?  (Sorry for my importunity. If do You want I can tell an anekdot to You ;-)).
<eugeneai> Bye, You helped me wery well!
<eugeneai> Are there anybody, who can help me?
<eugeneai> Are there anybody, who want to be asked? ;-)
<eugeneai> Now i'm developing (in the process of my scientific work) an production system. Is it interresting for Your project?
<eugeneai> The production system for Python 2.2 following its syntax.
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<ra3vat> eugeneai: http://savannah.gnu.org/files/?group_id=2013
<ra3vat> eugeneai: hello
<ariel_> hi! i have some question on forms
<ariel_> can someone help me?
<ra3vat> eugeneai: it is a project based on gnue
<eugeneai> OK. I'll see, thank You.
<DrMiaow> dtm: all resolved?
Action: DrMiaow ducks because of the bad pun
<eugeneai> dtm, is in bed now. ;-)
<DrMiaow> ok. . ta
<DrMiaow> looks good - I just did a manual zone transfer..
<madlocke> ariel_: what kind of questions...?
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<riandouglas> Anybody home?
<madlocke> yep... sun is shining and i am at home... how stupid :)
<ariel_> madlocke: suppose i have a dropdown entry that references a p-key in another table
<madlocke> oh erm... looks like detail questions... for these please ask others... sorry
<ariel_> and i want to update (add a new record) the referenced table on the fly.
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<jamest> nickr: you here?
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<jcater> so, what's the bug count?
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<joev> Hi all, With the recent release of the GNUe tools, will the emphasis now shift to the packages like Financial & Manufacturing?
<jcater> joev: probably not with this release
<jcater> the application server is only at 0.0.1
<jcater> but is advancing very rapidly
Nick change: eMeow-v2_ -> meow-
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<joev> Hey jcater thanks.  Is there any existing code base for the packages?
<jcater> I'm really not sure
<jcater> there's the packages/ directory in cvs
<jcater> but I'm not sure where that stands
Action: jcater mainly works on the actual tools
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<StyXman> hi, poep
<ra3vat> StyXman: hi, papo :)
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<siesel> hi all.
<StyXman> hi siesel 
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<madlocke> jcater: i have a question about xmlElements...
<madlocke> when reading an xml object
<madlocke> the GTypecast objects are used to get proper types
<jcater> correct
<madlocke> for output of types you are using something like str(....) to get it back to xml (for example in designer) _
<madlocke> ?
<jcater> I think that's correct
<jcater> well, common/src/GObjects.py
<jcater> has a dumpXML() function
<jcater> and it recognizes the GTypecast types
<jcater> so it checks for GTypecast.boolean, and outputs the attribute value accordingly
<jcater> is that what you are asking?
<madlocke> ok will look there... want to know how to create new types...
<madlocke> yep... boolean is a good example... will look for it, thx
<madlocke> want to create a new type...
<siesel> reinhard: first step on the way to appserver 0.0.2 is done. GConditions support is working.
<jcater> damn, man
<jcater> that was fast
<dneighbo> jcater: you have ai competition it appears :)
<jcater> I see
<siesel> yes, but you were faster (with the release)  ;)
<reinhard> siesel: great
<reinhard> btw i haven't seen an announcement of releases on the gnue-announce list?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> did anyone get my announcement?
<jcater> besides me?
<jcater> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gnue-announce/2002-June/000028.html
<jcater> it appears to have gone thru
<jcater> but more than one person said they didn't get it
<reinhard> siesel just for my understanding
<reinhard> can you build complete trees with prefix notation?
<madlocke> erm...
<madlocke> hm...
<madlocke> sigh...
<siesel> yes. 
<reinhard> how do you do ((a = 1) AND (b = 2)) OR (c = 3)
<siesel> OR AND = a 1 = b 1 = c 3
<madlocke> reinhard: not at all... i would use two :) *sorry couldn't resist}
<madlocke> two =
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<reinhard> siesel: and how is
<bobacus> jcater, I got your announcement on gnue-announce
<reinhard> (a = 1) AND ((b = 2) OR (c = 3)) ?
<madlocke> jcater: GTypecast works only for converting xml to object
<madlocke> not the other way
<madlocke> in dumpxml the types are compared and then converted back...
<siesel> the only thing where i have to change the tree is if i get AND (a,b,c) it becomes AND(a,AND(b,c))
<madlocke> :(
<siesel> AND OR = a 1 = b 1 = c 3
<madlocke> no easy chance to add new types if you don't want to compare for every one at every code location
<StyXman> what a re you using prefix notation for?!?
<madlocke> maybe a typecast should be a class with two class methods, one for in and one for out?
<jcater> madlocke: probably so
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<siesel> StyXmann: for transfering an object tree consisting out of GCOnditions from forms to appserver
<madlocke> ok
<reinhard> ((a = 1) OR (b = 2)) AND (c = 3) ?
<StyXman> siesel: ack. I thought I was to use it.
<StyXman> AND OR = a 1 = b 2 = c 3? 
<jcater> = jcater headache
<siesel> reinhard: sorry my last one was wrong: AND OR = a 1 = b 2 = c 3  is  ((a = 1) OR (b = 2)) AND (c = 3) 
<jcater> I'm glad that's behind the scenes :)
<siesel> and (a = 1) AND ((b = 2) OR (c = 3)) ->  AND = a 1 OR = b 2 = c 3
Action: StyXman too
<reinhard> siesel: ok gotcha
<reinhard> any reason you use prefix and not postfix?
<siesel> reinhard: please wait posting new question like that until we have an appserver  with method support which can listen to IRC helping me.
<reinhard> lol
<siesel> reinhard: because prefix is a bit easier to parse.
<reinhard> still wondering why we code an appserver at all
<reinhard> and don't use jcater and siesel
<reinhard> ;)
<jcater> did anyone get the release announcement?
<reinhard> i only got the gnue-dev one
<jamest> no
<bobacus> yes
Action: siesel is waiting for the gnue anounce diggest
<madlocke> is the typecast only used for xml or for triggers too?
<jcater> xml, iirc
<jcater> hrm
<madlocke> ok, then i'll change some things and say it's your fault if it's not true :)
<jcater> well, maybe gnu.org heard me bitching about their mailing list software last night
<jamest> jcater is very, very scalable so would theoreticly work
<jcater> and "accidentally" deleted my message
<jcater> it's in the archive, though
<jcater> for anyone who wants to read it
<jcater> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gnue-announce/2002-June/000028.html
<jamest> however the work units to donut consumption is an exponental curve
Action: jcater is expensive to run in a production environment
<jamest> so we'd quickly reach a point where meeting the donut requirements would be unmaintainalbe
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<StyXman> prefix starts at the 'lover left' node?
<StyXman> ah, prefix tree traveling!= prefix expressions
<siesel> yes :)
<madlocke> hm...
<madlocke> python has no class methods?!?
<siesel> or, hhmmm, what do you mean with "prefix tree traveling" ?
<siesel> madlocke: python has class functions. functions become methods when a class is instanciated.
<StyXman> siesel: root a, nodes b and c, a's sons
<madlocke> siesel: is it possible to call a function for a class and not it's instance?
<StyXman> IFAIR, prefix would be bac, infix would be abc and posfix would be cab. but I can easily be wrong.
<madlocke> it's=its'
<siesel> StyXman: right
<jcater> madlocke: what I'd do, in GTypecast, is have a class Boolean: (with all my methods)
<jcater> then at the end of the file, do:
<StyXman> but that's traveling trees.
<jcater> boolean = Boolean()
<StyXman> a prefix expression notation is like:
<jcater> then in other files, you can do:  GTypecast.boolean.toXML(myval)
<StyXman> (a+b)= + a b
<jcater> or GTypecast.boolean.toValue(myval)
<StyXman> infix is a+b itself
<madlocke> hm... ok was just wondering if there is another way...
<StyXman> an posfix is a b +
<StyXman> are slightly different
<jcater> madlocke: not really any other clean solutions
<madlocke> jcater: this was only an example or you are already doing this somewhere
<jcater> this is just an example
<madlocke> with gtypecast
<madlocke> ah ok...
<bobacus> StyXman: Pre-order tree traversal would process a, then b, then c, which corresponds to the order of symbols in prefix notation. In-order would do b, then a, then c.
<bobacus> StyXman: wouldn't it?
<siesel> StyXman: the plus of postfix and prefix over infix is that it doesn't need brackets
<StyXman> uh, I don't remember well. 
<StyXman> siesel: yes. like rpm
<StyXman> s/m/n/
<siesel> rpn = postfix
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<StyXman> bobacus: to my knowledge, pre does b a c and in does a b c
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<reinhard> l8r all
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<StyXman> yogurt2unge: ain't it 'yogur2'ngué'?
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<JonnyQ> hello!
<dneighbo> hello
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<ajmitch> psu_: hi
<psu_> hi aj
<psu_> big shout to everyone who worked on the new releases
<psu_> esp the two j's
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<ajmitch> hey psu :)
<psu> back again
<ajmitch> the real psu, not an imposter? :)
<psu> there can be only one ;-)
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<ajmitch> psu: busy KC week? :)
<psu> not too bad
<psu> main problem is I got about 4 days behind 
<psu> and am still catching up
<ajmitch> ah
<psu> btw, were we going to include Navigator in this release/
<psu> s///?
<ajmitch> don't think so, it looks pretty ugly still
<ajmitch> needs some luvin
Action: ajmitch wants to be able to build navigation forms, to use GNUe as an access replacement :)
<psu> kool
<psu> Concorde is just going past with the Red Arrows
<psu> on the TV
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<psu> bye bye mini-me
<ajmitch> weee
<ajmitch> i need sanity
<psu> GNUe - formerly known as Project Sanity
<psu> that statement is even factually correct
<psu> well sorta
<psu> Project Sanity was dneighbo and jade's project that merged into GNUe
<psu> iirc
<ajmitch> heh
<psu> jamest was Project Obelisk, dneighbo was Project Sanity
<ajmitch> ah yes
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<jamest> no navigator this release
<ajmitch> hi jamest
<jcater> jcater was Project Oracle Forms
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> heh
<psu> ok, new version of the "What is GNUe?" article for the website
<psu> based on 
<psu> what dneighbo and reinhard keep saying whenever newbies ask the q in this channel ;--)
<psu> GNUe Enterprise is (or will be) three linked things:
<psu> GNUe Enterprise is (or will be) three linked things
<psu> 1. A set of tools which provide a development framework for enterprise information technology professional to write or customise data-aware applications and deploy them effectively across large or small organisations. The GNUe platform boasts an open architecture and easy maintenance. It gives users a modular system and freedom from being stuck with a single-source vendor. 
<psu> 2. A set of packages written using the tools, to implement a full Enterprise Resource Planning ( ERP) system. From human resources, accounting, customer relationship management and project management to supply chain or e-commerce, GNUe can handle the needs of any business, large or small. 
<psu> 3. A general community of support and resources for developers writing applications using the GNUe Tools (whether part of the 'official' GNUe Packages or not). GNUe is a Free Software project with a corps of volunteer developers around the world working on GNUe projects. This provides the added benefits of easy internationalization of applications. The project is working to provide a worldwide GNUe community, allowing everyone who is involved in the p
<psu> w/ hyperlinks to explain open architecture, free s/w and ERP as on existing site
<psu> any comments?
<ajmitch> works for me
<psu> also add
<psu> GNUe is a work in progress. For the status of various packages, please view our Status <../project/status.html> document.
<psu> onus is obviously then to keep Status doc up to date ;-)
<jcater> I would personally revise #1 to include a "A set of tools, such as a data-aware user interface, a reporting system, and an application server, ..."
<jcater> or something like that
<psu> yes - as we have lots of e.gs in second para but not first
<psu> we really want an Oracle user 
<psu> to be able to relate to "this is a forms, reports, appserver replacement" eureka moment right away
<ajmitch> a eureka moment? you mean run screaming naked down the street?
Action: jcater has never had a eureka moment like that
<jamest> with a vacum cleaner in your hand
Action: jcater feels left out
<StyXman> if I do a cvs diff, how do I apply the generated patch?
<StyXman> I also tried a diff command, but files generated @ instalation time get into the patch :(
<dtm> DrMiaow: hahah "all resolved"...   
<dtm> DrMiaow: were you saying that you did a manual transfer of f-c-c.com from my server at smuckola.dyndns.org?
<jamest> StyXman: don't know
<madlocke> who is working on GParser? found a little bug to fix...
<jcater> I typically work in GParser
<jcater> what did you find?
<madlocke> GParser.py:238 the check for the required attribute is wrong
<madlocke>           elif baseAttrs.get('Required', 0): #default(baseAttrs[attr], 'Required', 0):
<madlocke> is the line
<madlocke> but it has to be
<madlocke> elif baseAttrs[attr].get ....
<jcater> ah
<jcater> good eye
<StyXman> byr jcater 
<dneighbo> no navigator in release?
Action: dneighbo supposes likely nothing has changed wrt navigator
<dneighbo> though has it ever been released
<madlocke> did another checkin of forms.test so if you are interested look at the parser...
<dneighbo> *** LOG FOR REINHARD **
<dneighbo> Bytwise Assignment is official now
<dneighbo> *** END LOG ***
<madlocke> wow... i fast faster with the papers than reinhard... tapping on my shoulders ;)
<madlocke> fast=was
<dneighbo> what is forms.test?
Action: dneighbo is wondering if this would have been better as a 'branch' or something
<dneighbo> as it almost looks a mirror of other parts of cvs
<madlocke> hm... maybe... don't really know how to work with branches...
<madlocke> someone comitted that a forms.test would be ok
<madlocke> at the moment it is in some parts very different from original forms...
<madlocke> don't know if it would be a real branch
<madlocke> oh dear my bad english, forgive me...
<madlocke> working for 13h now... maybe i should just stop for a while and get oxygen...
<dneighbo> understand
<jcater> dneighbo: we should probably clean up navigator a bit and release it
<jcater> dneighbo: are you gonna handle posting to freshmeat, et al?
<dneighbo> yeah
<dneighbo> designer and forms are public beyond gnuenteprise.org and gnue-announce
<dneighbo> er common not forms
<dneighbo> common was last night at 1am (during costa rica v china match)
<dneighbo> and
<jcater> dneighbo: did you ever get my gnue-announce post?
<dneighbo> designer this morning about 9am
<dneighbo> yes i did
<jcater> ok, good
<dneighbo> looked at the stats
<dneighbo> past 3 months they are anemic
<dneighbo> but in 2 hours after forms release its been off the hook
<dneighbo> im suprised ash is still standing
<dneighbo> about 40k hits in a few hour period
<dneighbo> i plan on sending forms off tomorrow morning
<dneighbo> and geas the morning after that
<dneighbo> oh and we have reports to release too
Action: dneighbo is like i a kid in a candy store
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well, no complains on mailing lists or in irc
Action: jcater is a little worried
<dneighbo> i got one personal email :)
<jcater> are ppl giving up quickly on it, or are they not having issues?
<ajmitch> heh, where was the release announced?
<dneighbo> freshmeat
<dneighbo> announce list
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> our website
Action: dneighbo is debating on listing on our other regulars
<dneighbo> as many of them are going way of buffalo
Action: dneighbo will do so this weekend probably and do them all at once at like
<dneighbo> icewalkers, linuxapps (or whatever the name was), cnet and such
<ajmitch> hmm, not bad then
<ajmitch> you'd get quite a few hits if it got on linuxtoday.com
<ajmitch> looking at the monthly stats, the last few months have been very very quiet
<jcater> where are stats?
<ajmitch> www.gnuenterprise.org/stats
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/stats/
<ajmitch> march's stats are weird
<ajmitch> the daily page avg is same as monthly total
<dneighbo> ajmitch yeah i think a few months in there are wrong
<dneighbo> i think was raround time of server problems
<dneighbo> perhaps things were not restored all the way ?
<ajmitch> could have been
<dneighbo> i meant to give jamst a ticket to look into it
<dneighbo> but figured i wasnt sweating it :)
<ajmitch> heh
<dneighbo> read into that, i didnt want to be slaughtered for being petty :)
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<dneighbo> run its those argentinian mongols returning ;)
<ajmitch> uh oh
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<psu> dneighbo: reason I queried Navigator is that we have iirc never released it
<psu> said it would be in next release
<psu> and avail from CVS in meantime 
<psu> I guess that's still true
<ajmitch> psu: navigator seems usable, but not much work seems ot have been done
<psu> AFAIK the original navigator was a quick hack jcater did for dneighbo
<psu> as one of the less glamourous tools, probably not much looked at since
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<jcater> psu: we could release navigator any day now, I suppose
<jcater> there's nothing that says all the tools need to be released at the same time
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<psu> only reason I noticed was that I was updating the website text
<psu> where we said Navigator was in CVS, and would be officially released w/next Forms
<psu> but given all the other hassle you've had 
<psu> I assume we all either forgot or decided not  a priority
<jcater> just not a priority
<psu> yep
<jamest> it's functional just not tested
<jcater> actually
<jcater> it has a l33t HTML based display
<ajmitch> oh?
<jcater> (not browswer, just html renderer)
<jcater> that's skinnable
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> wow! :)
<jcater> however, I'm having issues with wxHTML
<jcater> and catching the URL clicks
<jcater> the damn wx ppl say it's a bug on my end
<jcater> but I can reproduce in like 5 lines of code
<jcater> so I don't really think so :)
<jcater> I was really wanting to resolve that
<ajmitch> heh
<jcater> before releasing
<jcater> as that would kick some arse
<ajmitch> where can we try out this neat feature?
<dneighbo> jcater: i think we need not release things at same time
<dneighbo> i am willing to do some testing
<dneighbo> and contact the list for wx and light a fire to get a response (especially if you can do in 5 lines of code)
<jcater> ajmitch: gnuenav -u web
<dneighbo> as i assume tey will show us how to fix it
<dneighbo> or acknowledge the bug
<dneighbo> but either way we can leave
<jcater> check the wx lists for my email address
<jcater> and you will see my sample code 
<ajmitch> ok
<jcater> at least, iirc
<jcater> gnue-nav is really cool
<jcater> i.e., you can do gnue-navigator --install-kde-menu
<jcater> and it will build a KDE menu of the gpd file
<ajmitch> yeah, i saw that
<jcater> so each form/report/etc is an option on the menu
<ajmitch> it worked for my gnome menu too
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I didn't have a gnome setup to test under
<ajmitch> doesn't any more, i don't think
<jcater> oh
<jcater> bummer
<ajmitch> since i'm using a gnome2 setup
<ajmitch> different dirs
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<ajmitch> you could use the debian tools to install into debian menus tho
<madlocke> jcater: wx people are people from wxwindows or wxpython mailing list or irc, ..?
<dneighbo> jcater: it worked for me before
<jcater> dneighbo: ?
<jcater> madlocke: mailing list
<jcater> ajmitch: definitely
<madlocke> jcater: but not the wxpython-users list?
<madlocke> jcater: try it there... i wrote some messages earlier. got good help. especially from robin dunn
<jcater> Robin is the one who responded with "It works in the demo"
<jcater> but, yeah, he's usually really good about responding
<jcater> anyone with wxPython experience is welcome to look at my UIweb.py
<jcater> it's fairly simple
<jcater> maybe I am on crack and am doing something wrong
<ajmitch> ok, will look
<jcater> it could use another set of eyes
Action: ajmitch hasn't used the html classes much tho
<jcater> neither have I
<jcater> that's my problem :(
<jcater> this was the first^H^H^H^H^Honly time I've used the wxHTML classes
<ajmitch> so what error do you get? error opening requested document <big integer> ?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> which means
<jcater> my custom handler to retrieve URLs isn't being called
<jcater> as its their default handlers that gives that error message
Action: jcater blows the dust off of UIweb.py and opens it up in kate
<jcater> the OnLinkClicked is never getting called
<ajmitch> i hate those probs
<jcater> look at the MyHtmlWindow at the bottom of the file
<ajmitch> yep
<madlocke> is there a way to try this without installing navigator?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> gnuenav should run the cvs version (setup by setup-cvs.py)
<jcater> but I got an error message
<jcater> so it must be out of date
Action: ajmitch is using gncvs
<madlocke> ah a gncvs i have too..
<jcater> oh
<jcater> wrong name
<jcater> doh!
<jcater> that'd explain it :)
<madlocke> unable to open, ...
<dneighbo> rofl
Action: ajmitch looks up wxpython demo
<dneighbo> open source
<dneighbo> the only place where the users explain to the developers how to use the software
<ajmitch> madlocke: use the sample in the navigator/samples dir
<jcater> lol
<ajmitch> haha
<madlocke> did it...
<madlocke>  gncvs -u web sample.gpd
<madlocke> hope it was right...
<jcater> yes
<jcater> and when you click on one of the 3 options
<madlocke> i get the window but clicking on the item i get the error smg
<madlocke> smg=msg
<jcater> do you get an error
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> question: are we all using latest greatest wxPython?
Action: jcater is using 2.2.9
<dneighbo> as maybe in rob's version its fixed :)
<jcater> latest stable version
<dneighbo> jcater : ouch i bet rob is using like 2.3.x
<jcater> iirc, I tried on newest version too
<dneighbo> ah ok
Action: ajmitch is using 2.3.2.1
<dneighbo> i have a 2.3.x at hom iirc
<ajmitch> needed the newer version for stuff i'm doing
<jcater> rofl
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<dneighbo> we should all go to #wxwindows and bring this up  :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> the notes section for UIwxweb.py:
<jcater> # NOTES:
<jcater> # Experimental, at best.
<jcater> I crack me up sometimes
Action: ajmitch tries to figure out why the wxpython demo works
<psu> 'uh oh, the #gnuenterprise heavies are coming'
<madlocke> using 2.3.2.1 too
Action: ajmitch should try with non-default ID
<ajmitch> hmm, that probably won't do much
<ajmitch> anyway, must be off, got to find stuff so i can go to an exam
<madlocke> ajmitch: maybe you change nick to wxPythonIsGreat_erm_sometimes...
<ajmitch> madlocke: no, i meant in the src, not IRC :P
<madlocke> ;)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> this is exactly why I get frustrated with wxPython sometimes
<jcater> do a google search on
<jcater> OnLInkClicked wxHtmlWindow
<jcater> 11 responses
<jcater> 2 of which are us
<dneighbo> roflma
<jcater> and most of the others are links back to the reference manual
<jcater> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=OnLInkClicked+wxHtmlWindow&hl=en&lr=&selm=mailman.993574278.6002.wx-users%40lists.wxwindows.org&rnum=1
<jcater> that's what kills me
<jcater> can anyone see a difference in his code
<jcater> and my MyHtmlWindow ?
<jcater> did I mispell OnLinkClicked or something?
<dneighbo> is it a whitespace issue
<dneighbo> http://www.ifi.uio.no/in228/scripting/doc/python/wxPython/tut/archive/2001-March/004776.html
<jcater> holy shit
<jcater> I fixed it
<dneighbo> what was it?
Action: dneighbo sniffs around, it might be holy but it still smells
<dneighbo> your shit that is
<jcater> apparently it's a C++ <--> Python integration issue
<jcater> I was building a MyHtmlWindow instance
<jcater> and then right after it, overloading the OnLinkClicked
<jcater> but the overloading was negating out somehow
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> it's hard to explain
<dneighbo> the best kind of bug
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<jcater> oooooo
<jcater> Segmentation fault
<jcater> we're making progress now, folks
<madlocke> grin... segmentation faults with wx is not too difficult ;)
Action: jcater looks for a spair trout laying around
<madlocke> :)
<jcater> ok, if anyone wants to play with the -u web driver, it's committed in cvs
<jcater> it's amazing what 4 months of not looking at something can do :)
<jcater> btw, just for the record, it is a wxPython bug
<jcater> <sniff>
<dneighbo> brain spiff what are valid floating types for postgres?
<psu> Navigator 0.0.1, here we come ;-)
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<madlocke> "Something happened"
Action: jcater has been motivated to work on navigator
Action: madlocke has been motivated to look for his bed ;)
<madlocke> cu
<jcater> madlocke: it's over there
Action: jcater points to the left
<madlocke> hm... think a bit too far away ;)
<madlocke> wow... 16:12 for you...
<madlocke> hm...
<madlocke> sun is shining?
<jcater> yip
<jcater> very brightly
<madlocke> hm... convinced... taking the next plane :)
<madlocke> ok off now, cu
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<siesel> hi chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi
Action: chillywilly is going to look at the irc python lib
<chillywilly> you going to be available for GNURPC questions in case I have some?
<siesel> a short while. I 'm getting tired.
<chillywilly> ok
<siesel> did you had a look at the GComm Proposal the last days? Although there is still much missing, I hope it make GNURPC a bit more clear
<chillywilly> you should rename it
<chillywilly> in fact the code should be renamed to reflect it too
<chillywilly> GComm is actually a meta project creaed by Dave for GNU Telephony software, iirc
<chillywilly> which is also part of GNUe
<chillywilly> (sorta)
<siesel> oh.
<chillywilly> GComm.py should be rename to GnuRPC.py or something
<siesel>  i.e. I better drop my changes and create a new Proposal
<chillywilly> or GPRC.py
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> just change the name
<chillywilly> er, GRPC.py I meant
<siesel> won't be too hard ;)
<siesel> jcater: you begun the rpc work. what do you think?
Action: jcater thinks GnuRPC is misleading
<jcater> this is a GNUe thing
<jcater> GRPC is fine with me
<jcater> but then again, so is GComm
<chillywilly> but I thought you agreed with me the other day that it can be confused with Dave's project?
<jcater> well, I don't see how a python script can be confused with Dave's project
<jcater> the official name is "GNUe-Common RPC Abstraction"
<jcater> as far as I'm concerned
<jcater> but if you think GComm.py is misleading, change it to GRpc.py
<chillywilly> .whatever
<jcater> matters not to me
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<chillywilly> now I see where the name comes from
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<chillywilly> (duh)
<chillywilly> or was the Comm supposed to mean communications?
<jcater> communications
<siesel> I would like to have the communication part for MOM in commdrivers too. so GRPC would be a bit restrictive
<jcater> MOM?
<siesel> Message Oriented Middleware
<jcater> it's an internal name, so I don't see what the problem is with GComm
<chillywilly> just beacuse it is part of a bigger lib doesn't mean you should name it poorly, imho
<jcater> why is it poorly named?
<chillywilly> but I'm not going to split hairs about it
<chillywilly> well wha if someone else wants to use it?
<jcater> huh?
<chillywilly> then there could be some confusion
<chillywilly> with the telephony stuff
<jcater> import gnue.common.GComm
<jcater> I just don't follow
<jcater> it doesn't matter to me
<jcater> I just don't follow the reasoning to change it
<chillywilly> well we call it gnu[e]rpc then you import a GComm module...it doesn't make sense
<siesel> Another question: did the original GComm Proposal belong to "Dave's project" or to GNUe Common RPC abstraction
<chillywilly> I added it
<chillywilly> was meaning to work on it cause I had ideas for this big middleware thing, but didn't have time and can't keep up with the code machine that is jcater
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: chillywilly needs to contribute more
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> instead of playing with kernels
<jcater> ;)
<chillywilly> well I need more space
<chillywilly> so I had to compile NFS v3 in as it wouldn't mount with v2
<chillywilly> prior to this, I hadn't compiled on in eons
<chillywilly> dagnabit ;)
<chillywilly> I'm innocent!
<chillywilly> s/on/one
<nickr> 'kernel jerk'
<chillywilly> well when you going to do something with your 'spec' mr. nickr ;)
<nickr> yea yea.
<jamest> nickr: hey
<jamest> what's the stat on .debs?
Action: jamest was wanting to work on them if they are not done
<jamest> as I need
<chillywilly> hey does xfs work with nfs?
<jcater> dunno
Action: jcater is an Ext3 guy
<dneighbo> jamest: i need them desperately
<jcater> can someone update their nav install
<jcater> and lemme know what you think
<chillywilly> ext3 is fucking slow
<chillywilly> compared to xfs
<Mr_You> hi
<chillywilly> although kernel preemption pacth makes everythin scream ;)
<Mr_You> just to verify, designer v0.3.0 didn't get its version # updated in the About area? 
<jamest> ????
<jcater> eh?
<siesel> cool
<chillywilly> help->about
<jcater> it is in mine
<Mr_You> mine says 0.2.0a
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> anyone else?
<Mr_You> hmm ok, well I just installed over my current install.. forms looks fine
<Mr_You> yeah I just reinstalled again just for kicks
<Mr_You> this is windows binary
<Mr_You> will install linux next
<Mr_You> I'm locked out of my apple airport so thats another problem :-(
<siesel> jcater: no. 0.3.0
<Mr_You> ahh
<Mr_You> there is gnue-designer.exe and gfdesigner.exe
<jcater> oh
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> we renamed all our tools to be consistent
<Mr_You> seems if you install one on top of the other, the start menu icon doesn't get updated
<yogurt2unge> people: if I made "grcvs --filter-list" the only option is raw, why?
<Mr_You> going to uninstall the reinstall
<jcater> oops
<jcater> because --filter-list doesn't do the right thing
Action: dneighbo is having gnue forms issues
<dneighbo> sigh
Action: jcater forgot to comment it out
<Mr_You> hmm I'm not sure if I would call that a bug or not..
<Mr_You> guess its too early to be concerned about
<dneighbo> whew i figured it out, but have question how we should handle it
<dneighbo> if i have two tables say
<dneighbo> department
<dneighbo> ---------
<dneighbo> id
<dneighbo> name
<dneighbo> manager 
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> employee
<dneighbo> ----------
<dneighbo> id
<dneighbo> name
<dneighbo> dept
<dneighbo> title
<dneighbo> salary
<nickr> you know, I haven't tested it but the prototype debian/ for gnue-common looks just about done
<dneighbo> employee.dept is linked to department.id
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> department.manager is linked to employee.id
<jamest> nickr: you be on later?
<jamest> as I need
<dneighbo> if i use a wizard to make this
<yogurt2unge> jcater: tks, I'm working with report in this momment, and it is the first time
<dneighbo> department as parent
<jamest> and can put time into it myself
<jamest> if need be
<dneighbo> employee as child
<jamest> but right now
<jamest> i need to go home ;)
<jamest> l8r
<dneighbo> it makes the entry for department.manager typecast as number
<dneighbo> then i come along and make it a combobox
<dneighbo> add a new datasource
<dneighbo> and make it only contain valid employees
<jamest> nickr: if not no later can you mail files to jamest@gnuenterprise.org so I can at least have a sample of how .deb construction works
<nickr> how need do you need? I could probably be on later
<dneighbo> all is well but the form is useless
<dneighbo> as if i pick an employee
<dneighbo> as a manager from the combo box
<jamest> i need them asap for deployment here
<jamest> i know jcater needs them
<dneighbo> it disappears when selected
<dneighbo> (as its typecast as a number)
<nickr> I'm going geocaching after work but I can be back later in the evening
<jamest> and I know one other person needed them for company usage
<dneighbo> as soon as i remove the typecast it performs as normal
<dneighbo> maybe im being lazy here
<jcater> err
<jamest> i'm happy to work on them i was just wanting to get them somewhere as an example
<jcater> jamest/nickr
<jcater> can we get those in cvs
<jcater> so all can play?
<jamest> i'd love to see than
<jamest> that
<dneighbo> but if i wasnt familiar with forms i would be scratching my head pretty hard why this didnt work
<jamest> be i have to run
<jamest> but
<jamest> argh
<jamest> l8r
<jcater> dneighbo: sounds like a bug
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<nickr> I can make a tar of the debian/ dir, its not done yet tohugh
<jcater> but I'm still not exactly sure what's happening
<dneighbo> its not a bug really
<nickr> IX could knock them out tonight if properly motivated.
<nickr> at least common
<dneighbo> what happens is the wizard makes it typecast (correctly)
<nickr> but from common to others will be a trivial move I think
<dneighbo> but the combobox while storing an int, really displays text
<dneighbo> so when you select it disappears
<dneighbo> as JASON CATER is not a valid integer :)
<dneighbo> i would assume take ANY combobox that has strings
<dneighbo> and typecast the field to int
<dneighbo> and you will get same result
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I still think that's a bug
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> very well could be
<dneighbo> if we dont call it a bug and fix it
<dneighbo> we probably need to institute some error message
<dneighbo> gack
<dneighbo> another bug
<dneighbo> interesting one i never thought of before
<dneighbo> there seems to be no way to update combo box contents
<dneighbo> example: i open a form and it has prequery="" for the source that loads combobox A
<dneighbo> i then change data and add new items to table for that source
<dneighbo> and i do f8/f9
<dneighbo> and the combobox doesnt requery
<dneighbo> only the fields in the form
<dneighbo> does that make sense?
<dneighbo> maybe its by design?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> not intentionally by design
<dneighbo> maybe its maybelliene
<jcater> but I'm torn
<dneighbo> jcater: me too
<chillywilly> heh
<jcater> as to "correct" behaviour
<dneighbo> i think i could do it via triggers
Action: jcater hadn't thought of it either
<dneighbo> but im inclined that someday someone will want
<dneighbo> so i wouldnt be opposed to making it an 'option'
<dneighbo> something like
<dneighbo> <entry field="manager" foreign_key="dtsrcEmployeeLookup.id"
<dneighbo>              foreign_key_description="name" name="inpManager" style="dropdown" width="33" x="1" y="5" requery="true" />
<dneighbo> or seomthing
<dneighbo> though i suppose if its supported in triggers one could just use triggers to do it, i just dont know how common it will or wont be
<dneighbo> sigh some more wicked bug now
<nickr> fie, setup.py doesn't operate as I expected.
<dneighbo> jcater: for somereason combobox is not loading all items in the table
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<dneighbo> doh
Action: dneighbo smacks self
<dneighbo> damn sequences
<dneighbo> its a dumb user issue (re: postgres sequences)
Action: dneighbo can never remember how to change seq number
<nickr> who is in charge of setup.py again?
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<siesel> has anyone ideas for an easy way to parse gcd files?
<dneighbo> select setval('sequence_name', newvalue);
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<dneighbo> nickr jcater
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> jcater : first bug is still bug (about datatype)
<dneighbo> other bug is user stupidity
<jcater> siesel?
<jcater> oh
<jcater> gcd
<jcater> blah
<jcater> sorry, no
<nickr> jcater: fix setup.py to make it easy to package common, for example.
<jcater> nickr?
<jcater> you must be more specific than that
<nickr> aw
<jcater> btw, I only have distutils to play with
<nickr> okay, well maybe I just misunderstand.
<nickr> basically I had thought we'd modified it to accept a path to hardcode the location of a setup file which would softcode all other paths
<nickr> I have seen that this is not what happened at all
<nickr> s/setup/config/
<jcater> --cfg-file or something like that
<nickr> yea, but --config-file DOESN'T do that
<nickr> cfg-file
<nickr> python2.1 setup.py install --root `pwd`/debian/build/ --prefix '/' --cfg-file /etc/gnue/site.cfg
<nickr> Traceback (most recent call last):
<nickr>   File "setup.py", line 107, in ?
<nickr>     class my_build_scripts(build_scripts):
<nickr>   File "setup.py", line 215, in my_build_scripts
<nickr>     input = open('site_config.cfg')
<nickr> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'site_config.cfg'
<nickr> make: *** [install-stamp] Error 1
<jcater> what tool is this in?
<nickr> common
<jcater> hang on
<jcater> have I ever mentioned HOW MUCH I FSCKING HATE DISTUTILS
<nickr> Yes
<nickr> in fact last time we were talking about this you reiterated that. :)
<siesel> night
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<jcater> nickr: can you give me a run down on where stuff will go
<jcater> I assume etc stuff will go in /etc/gnue
<jcater> what about images, shared stuff, and the gnue.common libraries?
<jcater> I assume the latter will be /var/lib/gnue/lib/python
<jcater> (as that's how Zope is named)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> just a sec
<jcater> ok
<nickr> images go in /usr/share/gnue/images/
<nickr> shared stuff like text files and such go in /usr/share/gnue
<nickr> etc stuff goes in /etc/gnue
<jcater> for common, do not specify the --cfg-file, but as part of your scripts, create the actual cfg file
<nickr> libraries go in /usr/lib/python<version>/gnue/
<jcater> that last part I don't think is right
<jcater> as we are an app, not a python module
<jcater> c.f., the zope install
<jcater> but anywho
<jcater> as part of the common script, create the actual cfg file with the following contents:
<jcater> install_prefix = '/var/lib/gnue/lib/python'
<jcater> common_etc = '/etc/gnue'
<jcater> common_appbase = '/var/lib/gnue/lib/python'
<jcater> common_images = '/usr/share/gnue/images'
<jcater> then for all the other tools, use --cfg-file /path/to/this/file
<nickr> it does NOT go in var, whatever the case
<dneighbo> jcater: sent you some mail
<jcater> nickr: well, change those lines as appropriate
<jcater> but it needs those 4 lines
<nickr> I'm certain that it goes in /usr/lib/
<dneighbo> in it is a sample that will reproduce the dropdown requery (issue, bug, question, thing)
<jcater> that was a typo on my part :)
<jcater> I know it doesn't go in /var :)
<jcater> oops
<nickr> I need to be able to give this file in a ... non-commital way
<nickr> like 'these are the paths you should install to under --root, and this is the path that the config file will be at later'
<jcater> I don't think any of the tools (besides common) looks for the existance of that file
<jcater> so you can actually create the file wherever
<jcater> i.e., if you are in forms/
<nickr> how will the other apps find the various parts after installtion, then?
<jcater> ok
<nickr> or do they do that through common?
<jcater> what was happening was common was creating the file
<jcater> (which we are bypassing)
<jcater> but the other tools
<jcater> record where the file *should be*
<jcater> so when their executable script is run
<jcater> they look for the file
<jcater> they don't actually look for it when you do the ./setup.py
<jcater> if that makes sense
<nickr> Yes
<nickr> good
<nickr> thats basically my concern
<nickr> I need to say weher things SHOULD be and wher ethey SHOULD go (in relation to --root, which will eventually be /)
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> I'm a bit confused though ..
<nickr> all the binaries go in appbase?
<nickr> or just the .pyc files?
<jcater> um
<jcater> what do you define as binaries?
<nickr> well 'gfclient'
<jcater> the .py and .pyc files should be in appbase
<jcater> oh
<jcater> that's irrelevant to this file
<nickr> hrm
<jcater> this file tells GBaseApp where to look for its stuff
<nickr> right
<nickr> okay
<nickr> I've created a 'debian-setup.cgf'
<nickr> cgf
<jcater> GBaseApp could care less how it was run :)
<nickr> cfg
<nickr> in debian/
<nickr> how do I invoke setup to use that for the installation, and do I have to install that osmewhere in the target directory?
<jcater> I'm confused
<nickr> I created a debian-setup.cfg with debian specific config settings paths etc
<nickr> a) do I need to install this into teh target tree somewhere
<nickr> b) do I need to give a path that it will eventuall appear at when installed
<nickr> c) how to I give setup.py the info it needs to use it
<jcater> 1) that file will need to go somewhere during installation (for the moment, assume it will be /usr/lib/gnue/site.cfg whether or not this is correct)
<jcater> s/1/a
<jcater> b) when running the setup.py's for anything BUT common, you'll need to pass '--cfg-file /usr/lib/gnue/site.cfg'
<jcater> c) see b)
<jcater> I may be confused re what you are asking
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<nickr> well setup.py needs the info in there to install things in the right spots, no?
<nickr> if that is the case, YI have to give it the info in that file in a non-commital way IN ADDITION to telling it where that file will be later on
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<nickr> jcater: well setup.py needs the info in there to install things in the right spots, no?
<nickr> jcater: if that is the case, YI have to give it the info in that file in a non-commital way IN ADDITION to telling it where that file will be later on
<jcater> setup.py will not install to the right places
<nickr> fie.
<jcater> you'll have to probably do your own install script to move the files around
<nickr> this is so suck.
<nickr> Whats the point of using setup.py at all?
<nickr> might as well just write a debian-specific makefile and bypass all this bullshit
<chillywilly_> distutils sucks this bad?
<nickr> feels like ti.
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<chillywilly_> howdy jamest
<jamest> hi
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<nickr> well anyway
<nickr> I'm going geocaching now, I'll be back this evening
<jamest> l8r
<jamest> did you put the deb stuff in cvs?
<nickr> jamest: no, I'm going to have to completely rewrite it to work around distutils' brokeness
<nickr> my plan is to write a makefile to do it The Debian Way(tm)
<nickr> it shouldn't be that hard.
<chillywilly> ew
<jamest> nickr: if I find time do you mind if I start something and put in cvs?
<nickr> No, not at all.
<nickr> although the basics are nothing, its the getting it installed right into the target dir thats the hard part
<nickr> and its not something that there is any standard on really
<nickr> thus I will have to write some build system, I believe.
<jamest> there is no way to do this in our setup system?
<jamest> like the man pages and such?
Action: jamest wants to see setup.py stuff in common
<nickr> We've been wrestingly with it
<jamest> so we have a real install system
<nickr> I don't think its worth it.
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<jamest> what's the issue?
<chillywilly> ./configure
<chillywilly> make
<chillywilly> make install 
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: chillywilly runs
<nickr> making it stick the things in the right spot in the right way
<jamest> i know I'd like to tell distutils where to stick it sometimes
<chillywilly> hehe
<nickr> haha
<nickr> yea
<nickr> I will be back later and we can go over what is needed more thuroughly.
<nickr> I'm outtie.
<jcater> chillywilly: that's probably what we'll need for debian support
<jcater> but that can't be our main install mechanism
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<chillywilly> why not?
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> winders?
<jcater> Win32 installs
<jcater> Mac installs
<chillywilly> mac run on top of unix
<jcater> that's a BIGGIE, btw
<chillywilly> and supports auto tools
<jcater> installed by default?
<chillywilly> win32 well you guys made a separate installer for that anyway
<jcater> does Mac OSX come pre-configured with autoconf
<chillywilly> beats me
<chillywilly> I think you install fink
<jcater> well, this won't happen regardless :)
<chillywilly> and you get apt-get too
<chillywilly> there's aways good ol' Make files ;P
<jamest> setup.py sucks like than autotools for dealing w/ python
<jamest> s/like/less
<jamest> i think with some effort we could mold distutils and our setup stuff into a kick ass setup system
<jamest> it's just not been a priority
<chillywilly> AM_PATH_PYTHON
<chillywilly> groovy
<ajmitch> afternoon
<ajmitch> jcater: any luck with navigator issues?
<jcater> yip
<jamest> any of it good luck?
<jcater> some
<ajmitch> good news or bad?
<jcater> which part?
<ajmitch> either
Action: jcater isn't sure of what news you are talking about
<ajmitch> don't worry then
Action: jcater is away: store run
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:18:54)
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<fitzix> hello
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<fitzix> hey Derek
<fitzix> how are ya?
<dneighbo> hungry
Action: dneighbo goes to scavenge food and try to catch the diamondbacks last innings
<dneighbo> bbs
<fitzix> heh
<chillywilly> will someone beat me if I autoconfiscate gnue?
Action: chillywilly is playing with the new python automake support
<chillywilly> pygtk is a big help
<chillywilly> in figuring outhow to use it
Action: chillywilly hacks up some php
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<dneighbo> StyXman: ?
<dneighbo> isnt it late to be at work?
Action: dneighbo thinks we have an imposter
<chillywilly> how do blind people write software?
<dneighbo> coding eye dogs?
<chillywilly> I take it you don't get the wallops?
<chillywilly> [22:34:43] -lilo/Wallops- From dwaters, who registered #speakup:  "The speakup project is basically a bunch of blind people who like messing around with Linux and writing cool and, hopefully useful, software. It began with the Speakup screen reader package and has grown to encompass a number of projects as well as becoming a vibrant community."  Please welcome #speakup to OPN. :)
<chillywilly> [22:35:29] -lilo/Wallops- (Btw, that's 'dmwaters' :)
<dneighbo> wallops are for weenies
<fitzix> Free Software -- letting the blind program
Action: dneighbo only gets them when i am using bitchx
<fitzix> what's next? :)
<fitzix> that's awesome
<dneighbo> fitzix: they might be one of the dying breed that actually READS the license :)
<fitzix> lol
<fitzix> They are few and far between these days
<chillywilly> aaaaaaw sshheeeeit
<fitzix> hmm... this is an eclectic list... light rap, metal, techno, and some fusion...
<chillywilly> dd you listen to that ogg file?
<chillywilly> did
<fitzix> will play it after Static-X
<chillywilly> fuck static-x
Action: chillywilly listens to ozzy
<fitzix> chillywilly: If you want to, go right ahead -- I have no interest in fornicating with bands
<chillywilly> yes, you do
<chillywilly> it's the thing you do
<fitzix> fornicating to band music... yes
<chillywilly> it is what makes you, you
<fitzix> whoa - funky
<chillywilly> bah bah bah
<fitzix> where's shaft?
<chillywilly> lol
<fitzix> lol - the solo is a modem tone
<chillywilly> you are the band fornicating mofo of the Free Software world
<chillywilly> hehe, yep
<fitzix> fornication - it's what's for dinner!
<fitzix> She is the other white mear
<fitzix> s/mear/meat
<chillywilly> that bitch
<chillywilly> dream of californication
<StyXman> dneighbo: I'm not at work. I'm studying.
<chillywilly> you craaaaazy
<StyXman> me? nah, just take the chance when I cannot sleep. occurs sometimes.
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<jcater> chillywilly: we will beat you to within an inch of your life and leave you out for the dogs
<jcater> if you move us to autoconf support
<jcater> that's all...
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<StyXman> wow. that was rude.
<StyXman> by the way, how can I clean my installer dir just to the state it was before installing?
<StyXman> I mean, something like 'distclean'
<nickr> hokay, I'm back
<fitzix> No matter how hard they try they can't stop us now!
Action: chillywilly continues to autoconfiscate gnue
<chillywilly> fuck you jcater
<fitzix> I'm gonna start doing that thing on the jacket of the Rage "Renegades" CD
<fitzix> writing on money "you are not a slave"
<fitzix> Battle of Los Angeles is a solid album, but the Jacket is the best part of this CD
<chillywilly> and if he's awake why the fuck isn't he sitting here in IRC like a good boy?
Action: nickr enjoys a heaping dose of groove salad
<nickr> It'd really suck to have to write a makefile for the debian install. Blah.
<nickr> I guess it'd be easier to just move it post-install ... but will it work then?
<chillywilly> isn't it easier if you use the auto* tools?
<chillywilly> ;P
<nickr> No
<nickr> much harder, actually
<nickr> because they add aditional work with no benifit
<chillywilly> I think you are biased
<chillywilly> you just don't like them
<nickr> well since for example common is a python project, it is completely pointless to use a C-oriented dependency tool
<chillywilly> I disagree...point is you can check thing like python version etc and have ot be as portable as a shell script is
<nickr> I don't need to check the python version or anything
<nickr> I invoke setup with the version I want to compile with, simple as that
<nickr> I just need to do some string replacements and move everything to the right spot and compile everything
<StyXman> nickr: but that's not automatic...
<nickr> setup.py IS automatic
<nickr> its just brain damaged
<StyXman> actually, I hacked the setup-cvs.py to do not ask me what version of python I like it to run with...
<StyXman> althought I know we're not talking about cvs..
<chillywilly> well we should require a sertain version
<chillywilly> like >= 2.0
<chillywilly> and doign AM_PYTHON_PATH(2.0) does that
<StyXman> you actually need some python modules...
<nickr> chillywilly: you're thinking of it completely backwards, python-wise
<StyXman> but I guess a autoconf thing won't detect them anyways.
<nickr> its simplistic to indicate what version of python to use by doing python2.1 setup.py
<chillywilly> nickr: dude, we don;t even support 1.5.2 anymore
<chillywilly> we're using features that it does not have
<chillywilly> iirc
<StyXman> or you'll end up hacking code to do so, a thing you can already do with the actual setup.py
<nickr> and when 2.2 becomes the official, simply python2.2 setup.py
<StyXman> (take the last sentence as a question)
<chillywilly> that's manual
<nickr> yes, it is
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<nickr> but python2.1 is the official python to use
<chillywilly> some people would have to make a symlink, etc.
<nickr> so it is manual
<nickr> I'm referring to the debian build process
<chillywilly> says who?
<chillywilly> I asked jc the other day
<chillywilly> he said 2.0
<chillywilly> even thought he personally uses 2.1
<nickr> I was told that the debian package would use 2.1
<chillywilly> wel if that's what is decided
<StyXman> that's a problem. you could end up using things in 2.1 and not in 2.0
<StyXman> and you'll never notice the difference.
<chillywilly> especially if you just make symlinks to whatever version
<chillywilly> so you can just type "python"
<nickr> wtf is this symlink stuff? it will build-depend on python2.1, and thats what it uses, and will predictably fail if 2.1 isn't given.
<chillywilly> I am not talking about the debian package numb nuts
<nickr> I know you're not
<nickr> but that IS what i'm talking about
<chillywilly> I was responding to StyXman
<nickr> thats funny, since the whole world revolves around me
<StyXman> chillywilly: I was just saying that developing with python 2.1 but saying that 2.0 is enough is a little risky.
<chillywilly> uhuh
<StyXman> but if you're using me as a shield...
<StyXman> :)
<chillywilly> whatever
--- Wed Jun  5 2002