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<dtm> he'd better work harder to keep up if he is to win.....   #GNUENTERPRISE COMBAT 2002!!!
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<psu> hi
<StyXman> hi.
<psu> hi StyXman Up early or late?
<StyXman> never got down, I guess :)
<StyXman> sometimes I just can't sleep.
<psu> obviously sick with worry about the England-Argentina match?
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<Arturas> Hello
<madlocke> hi
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<alexia> who
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<Arturas> Is anyone online now?
<Arturas> mmmmmmmmm
Action: Arturas is away: I'm busy
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<esands> you guys tag the 0.3.0 release in the cvs?
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<alexia> who
<ra3vat> alexia: hello
Action: Arturas is away: off
<Arturas> i'm back
<ra3vat> Arturas: hello
<Arturas> Hi Dmitry
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<ariel_> can someone help me with forms?
<ra3vat> ariel_: hi, what is the problem?
<ariel_> ra3vat: suppose i have a dropdown entry in a form that references a p-key in anoter table
<ariel_> classical example is customer-id in an order form.
<ariel_> and i want to add a new referenced record (i.e. a new customer) "on the fly"
<ariel_> so i need:
<ariel_> 1) a button to call another form 
<ariel_> 2) to update the list of values of the dropdown after the insertion.
<jamest> right now the values in a dropdown are populated at form initialization
<jamest> but never reloaded
<jamest> so if the values in the table the dropdown pulls form change you have to reload the form
<jamest> I'm open to ideas on how to deal with this 
<jamest> i didn't want to refresh values prior to each opening as thats a pretty big performance hit
<jamest> s/opening/opening of the dropdown
<jamest> and not all db's support a way for a table to notify apps that it's values have been altered
<jamest> i had wondered about adding a menu entry to tell the form to refresh it's lookup information
<jamest> but that requires the user to know the table values changed in the first place
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<jamest> ariel__: did you get my responce?
<ariel__> jamest: no
<ariel__> jamest:  i was awile for a short time, and xchat disconnected then reconnectrd
<DrMiaow> does anyone know the gcc directive for TLS (Thread Local Storage) ?
<DrMiaow> I thought it was __thread
<ra3vat> jamest: if an user opens another form, puts new entry there and hits "OK" button can we use it as signal to refresh that lookup information in first form?
<ariel__> jamest: to refresh i think that one must do:
<ariel__> someentry._allwedValues = None
<ariel__> someentry.allowedValues()
<ariel__> can a new method (say requery) can be added to GFEentry, that checks if the enty is "dropdown"
<ariel__> and, if so, does the above?
<DrMiaow> ahh bugger.. its only available as a patch to binutils and only supported glibc2.3 :(
<jamest> <jamest> right now the values in a dropdown are populated at form initialization
<jamest> <jamest> but never reloaded
<jamest> <jamest> so if the values in the table the dropdown pulls form change you have to reload the form
<jamest> <jamest> I'm open to ideas on how to deal with this 
<jamest> <jamest> i didn't want to refresh values prior to each opening as thats a pretty big performance hit
<jamest> <jamest> s/opening/opening of the dropdown
<jamest> <jamest> and not all db's support a way for a table to notify apps that it's values have been altered
<jamest> <jamest> i had wondered about adding a menu entry to tell the form to refresh it's lookup information
<ariel__> jamest: i think the menu entry will be useful and feasible.
<jamest> <jamest> but that requires the user to know the table values changed in the first place
<jamest> sorry i'm choppy
<jamest> users
<Isomer> hmm
<ariel__> ra3vat: how i do refer to an entry (the object, not the value) inside a trigger?
<Isomer> postgres supports notification
<Isomer> we use it for X
<jamest> yes postgresql does
<jamest> there really isn't a clean way to get to the object anymore
<jamest> i've tried to hide them from the trigger namespace
<jamest> it can be done but I'd have to re-read the code to recall how to do it
<ariel__> jamest: i did'nt received your response on the first point: which is the best way to call another form from a form
<jamest> um
<jamest> there was at one time a runform() command in the trigger system
<jamest> but I'm not sure it's functional at the moment as it had troubles w/ launching multiple multipage forms
<jamest> so it may be disables
<jamest> d
<jamest> what i did as a work arround was launch a whole new form instance via pythons (IIRC) system command
<jamest> it's been a while though since I did a form like that and it's at home so I can't check
Action: jamest isn't much help
<ariel__> my workaround was those three lines in the trigger:
<ariel__> <ariel_> subform = GFClient()
<ariel__> <ariel_> subform.ARGUMENTS[0] = "pathname of the form"
<ariel__> <ariel_> subform.run()
<ariel__> <ariel_> it does run the form, but when i close the child form, (i.e. file,exit) it closes the main form.
<madlocke> is there a chance with python to fill a string via stream?
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<madlocke> ... ok found...
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Action: ariel__ is away: sorry, i'm busy
<ra3vat> ariel__: /me is not much help either
Action: ariel__ is back (gone 00:00:19)
<ariel__> who is the guru?
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<jamest> ariel__: I'm the last person IIRC to work in triggers i just don't have time at the moment to GNUe, that nasty real work stuff
<jamest> has me too busy
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<jcater> yes, yes
<jcater> it's me
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<ariel__> jcater: did you read what we discussed before?
<jcater> ?
<jcater> lemme look
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<siesel> hi all :)
<ariel__> siesel: hi!, do you have the common.dia that was on gontran.net?
<siesel> ariel: yes. I downloaded it some time ago.
<ariel__> can you send me, i dont want to register myself and remember another pwd, thanks
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<bobacus> Hi, what's the status on .debs? Did anything change during/after yesterday's IRC discussion?
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<ariel__> time to go home, bye
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<madlocke> jamest: you still here?
<jamest> sorta
<madlocke> want to talk a bit about the triggers... you wanted to start namespaces.
<madlocke> what kind of namespaces you wanted to create?
<madlocke> for each package?
<jamest> i really don't have time right now :(
<madlocke> ah ok...
<madlocke> you have a deadline for a project?
<jamest> sorry
<jamest> no
<jamest> just a ton of crap I need to get done this week at work
<jamest> and I'm no where near finished
<madlocke> hm... same for me... but for me it's work on forms..
<madlocke> :)
<madlocke> jcater: you are familiar with triggers, too?
<jamest> lol
<jamest> the trigger namespace code is in common
<jamest> and I think will work ok minus a few issues
<jamest> like self.* isn't working
<madlocke> ok will look at it thx...
<jamest> what I still had left to do was implement a real trigger manager that could merge namespaces, allow for other trigger languages
<jamest> right now the whole thing is still too forms dependent
<madlocke> was seeing a search for a GFForm parent earlier, yes ...:)
<jamest> :)
<madlocke> you use the word trigger now for both, the event handling and the code that is executed for an event, right?
<jcater> madlocke: a little
<jcater> siesel: um, I see you are working on a GCD parser
<jcater> I think we are moving away from GCD files
<jcater> and to XML that can be parsed with GParser
<jcater> so I'm not sure if you want to be spending any time on the GCD stuff
<dneighbo> jamest: i reported same bug that ariel did yesterday
<dneighbo> my suggestion was an option on the entry (dropdown) for refresh="true"
<madlocke> a derek, the man i need ;)
<dneighbo> if that is set then when an f7/f8 is performed the dropdown contents are refreshed
<madlocke> i reported some bugs with dcl... for every ticket i have to define some person responsible for this ticket...
<dneighbo> i dont know if that is a good 'coding' solution
<madlocke> it's ok when you know the name, but not everyone does...
<dneighbo> but it would be acceptable to me as a forms developer
<dneighbo> madlocke is there a choice for 'unassigned'?
<madlocke> think not...
<madlocke> wait i look
<dneighbo> madlocke: only gnue developers have ability to create workorders/tickets via the web interface
<dneighbo> and they should know who to assign things too
<dneighbo> all normal users have to submit issues via productname-support@gnuenterprise.org
<siesel> jcater: I hate do that gcd stuff, but I thought that we should stay with gcd until the xml format for appserver objects is well defined 
<dneighbo> which defaults to the maintainer of the product
<madlocke> no way for unasigned...
<dneighbo> madlocke: correct, me recalls that normal users have to use email and at that point its defaulted to product maintainer
<madlocke> hm... is it possible to make it unassigned and the ticket is automatically assigned to the maintainer?
Action: dneighbo could look into a optoin that allows 'responsible' to be blank and if left blank defaults to product maintainer
<dneighbo> madlocke: i would have to change the code
<madlocke> ah ok...
<madlocke> was just a bit annoying but not urgent...
<dneighbo> but currently onnly devfelopers can use the interface you are looking at
<dneighbo> and should know who belongs to what
<jamest> did anyone fix the dcl security bugs?
<jamest> we do not want a negative comment about developer's responce to security issues on bugtrac
<dneighbo> no
<dneighbo> i thought mdean said he would (based on the email)
<dneighbo> so i didnt want to collide with him
<siesel> jcater: and I just want to use the packages. ( even if just one method out of ~ 20 defined methods is coded until now)
<dneighbo> i cant look at it tonight, but i can tomorrow
<dneighbo> siesel: i really dislike the idea of using the gcd's
<dneighbo> more forth cant we just get triggers working outside turning everything into objects?
<dneighbo> i.e. we used common rpc, common db
<dneighbo> cant you make it use common trigger over rpc
<dneighbo> at which point we have something highly functional and not overly complex
<siesel> dneighbo: do you create xml files out of all gcd files for me?
<dneighbo> and then we can start arguing about objects
<dneighbo> to me the gcd's are not of any use
<dneighbo> without a TON of work
<dneighbo> as most of then define 'structure' they have NO methods
<dneighbo> and run a gcd to db program
<dneighbo> and look at the tables it builds
<dneighbo> they are nearly worthless for the relational world
<dneighbo> which means gcd data is not useful until you have a full object/relational engine
Action: dneighbo still thinks it best to avoid this early in appserver
<dneighbo> and just get remote methods working (as it seems remote data works now)
<dneighbo> and we have a HUGE victory
<dneighbo> quickly
<dneighbo> then we tackle how we want to approach object to relational
<dneighbo> i hope the above makes sense
<siesel> allmost ;)
<dneighbo> i have to run to work naturally :(
<siesel> no. stay. :)
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<siesel> ok. for the log: the GTrigger stuff works well if the whole object tree is stored in xml files. If we want to store class/table method/trigger definitions in the database, GTrigger has to be changed a LOT to make that possible.
<jamest> would it?
<jamest> wouldn't triggers load from the db upon initialization?
Action: jamest is just asking 
<jcater> bear in mind that the only thing tying us to XML is the 
<jcater> loadObject methods
<jcater> and the dumpXML
<jcater> but once the object is created, it's created
<siesel> ok, it should go without much work.
<jcater> I personally think it will be a very small step from XML-stored GFDs, GCDs, GRDs, etc
<jcater> to database-stored
<jcater> (for those who insist on having stuff in the database)
<jcater> :)
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Action: siesel is thinking
Action: siesel is still thinking
<jcater> siesel: don't hurt yourself
<jamest> anyone smell smoke?
<siesel> the thing which I don't like in GTriggers is that it is a) closely connected to the GObj ( which is great if you don't have heaps of it (performance?))  b) it defines namespaces which should defined in a more global way in appserver. ( this is the same as GNURPC stores the local copy of dynamic objects, which is allready done by appserver )
<jamest> I'm cool w/ changes to the GTrigger system that make it more usefull/flexible
<siesel> jamest: I think the GTrigger system is quite optimal for its actual use. even new languages should be easy to add
<siesel> but it would be great if we could split it in two parts: a very very general one and a part which implement the Namespaces and GObj Tree specific functions. hmmm.  
Action: siesel has to dig deeper into GTrigger.py.  :)
<siesel> l8r
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<nickr> foonf
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<dneighbo> dang arturas is gone
<dneighbo> siesel too
<dneighbo> commuting sucks
<nickr> yea
<nickr> you should work from home
<dneighbo> sounds like my obstinence has forced us to look at GTrigger.py
<dneighbo> and possibly get it changed for the better 
<dneighbo> hopefully this will be a good thing
<dneighbo> jamest: you never commented on solution option for the dropdown 'refresh' issue
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<dneighbo> forms has been berthed to fm
<dneighbo> tommorrow appserver and friday reports :)
<dneighbo> hopefully by then we will have navigator tested and ready for release
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<madlocke> maybe stupid question...: for the dataobject i can use a connect method but i can't find disconnect...
<madlocke> how to disconnect from db?
<dneighbo> um big ugly stick
<jcater> madlocke: disconnect your ethernet cable
<madlocke> hm...good idea jcater, maybe kicking may computer helps too ;)
<dneighbo> madlocke is the german press slandering the german national team, for that tie to IRL this AM?
<dneighbo> kicking computer = see reference to big ugly stick
<dneighbo> dataobject is a like a 'gang'
<dneighbo> easy to get in, impossible to get out
<madlocke> hm... so i have to become a terrorist to get rid of id? ;)
<madlocke> think i am as interested in soccer as reinhard... ;)
<dneighbo> yeah somethign like that
<jamest> dneighbo: F7/F8?
<dneighbo> explains why you all speak english so well
<dneighbo> you are really americans in germany/austria (not liking footbal and all)
<madlocke> ok then at the end of the app i just run a dpkg -remove all-python and it's probably gone... :)
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<dneighbo> jamest: i meant F8/F9 :)
<dneighbo> whatever prep query and execute query are
<jamest> ah 
<jamest> that might get ugly on large dropdowns
<jamest> maybe
Action: dneighbo wonders if ariel_ likes football
<dneighbo> jamest: thats why my suggestion was to make a refresh="true"
<dneighbo> option on dropdown queries
<dneighbo> and default it to false
<ariel_> not so much, altought beeing italian
<dneighbo> so there is no performance hit unless you specifically ask for it
<dneighbo> the other option is we dont provision for it
<dneighbo> and force people to use triggers to get the behavior
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> dneighbo: I thought your
<jcater> "so there is no performance hit unless you specifically ask for it"
<jcater> comment was re the DataObjects as gangs
<jcater> a play on word
<jcater> s
<dneighbo> :)
<jcater> then I realized you were being serious
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> well, I'm going back to work since I now know you are being serious
<jcater> ;-)
<ariel_> why not an entry in menu to refresh all as jcater suggested?
<dneighbo> i just thought it was funny that in year + of testing dropdowns
<dneighbo> i never noticed it
<dneighbo> then yesterday i hit it
<jcater> I suggested that?
<dneighbo> and within 12 hours ariel_ reported same issue
Action: dneighbo isnt real keen on a refresh vs refresh all
<dneighbo> not user friendly
<ariel_> anoter button in toolbar and/or menu entry that requeries all the dropdowns in the form
<dneighbo> i like idea of adding option per entry
<dneighbo> then user doesnt have to think about it
<dneighbo> it just happens
<ariel_> ok, but how the entry is aware of changed data?
<dneighbo> but people with lots of static dropdowns arent burdened with performance slowdowns in their work
<dneighbo> same events that are used for all widgets 
<dneighbo> if a datasource is changed
<dneighbo> all widgets tied to it perform updated
<dneighbo> er updates
<ariel_> someone noticed that not all backends support this kind of event notification
Action: dneighbo assumes that when you do an f8/f9 only the datasource you are in gets requeried and sources linked to it
<dneighbo> i.e. master detail
<dneighbo> i assume it would just be extended to look for foreign keys
<jamest> I'm ok with that I think
<dneighbo> and if the option refresh was there that the datasource of it would be requeried
<dneighbo> other wise it would not
<dneighbo> but i havent looked at the internals for a bit, so maybe its addressed in another way
<jamest> ariel_: he's talking not data aware
<jamest> it always refreshes
<jamest> the bad side of this is I typically notice my dropdown is lacking as I'm entering/altering a record
<jamest> not before I query
<dneighbo> this is true
<dneighbo> another option (one i dont like really)
<dneighbo> would be that when you enter into a dropdown it requeries
<dneighbo> it would be the most updated that way
<dneighbo> but has the most severe performance penalty (which is why i dont like it)
<ariel_> one option is to add a fake row (soneting like --new/change--) to the list of values of the dropdown
<ariel_> when the user choses that value, instead of changing the field value
<ariel_> the subform pops up, and when finished, the dropdown is updated.
<dneighbo> i was thinking of some mechanism like that, but then thought maybe the menu option to 'refresh' dropdowns or such would be more elegant in that situation
<ariel_> there may be an option to display or not that row
Action: ariel_ is away: eating :)
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<psu> hi all
<psu> dneighbo: did you stay up for the match?
Action: ariel_ is back (gone 00:34:29)
<dneighbo> no i fell asleep
<dneighbo> but we WON
<dneighbo> i can not believe it but we won
<dneighbo> despite scoring on ourselves
Action: dneighbo is drooling over the argentina v england game in a few days
<dneighbo> truth be told i really dont like Premier League nor the Eng national team (and was happy to see sweden pull a tie)
<dneighbo> but i am truly looking forward to the match (me dislikes argentina team more than england) but thinks it will be a good match
Action: dneighbo still cant believe germany dropped one to ireland (with keane) just pitiful
<psu> The 1953 friendly was abandoned as a riot
<psu> and then there's 1986
<psu> My old college common room still has the hole in the wall
<dneighbo> rofl
<psu> where someone punched it after
<psu> the "Hand of God" goal
<dneighbo> hand of bs goal is what i call it
<dneighbo> maradonna was a cheat on the field
Action: dneighbo thinks overrated is the best word for him
<dneighbo> you are in sunderland right?
<psu> your captain's home town
<psu> during the season anyway
<psu> and also home of The Mighty Quinn
Action: dneighbo has a coworker here that follows soccer (rare breed in teh states) he is a huge Premier League fan (i rag on him for that)
<dneighbo> he said he loathes sunderland 
<dneighbo> and i was like hey i know someone from there :)
Action: dneighbo didnt realize you all had a team in the EPL
Action: dneighbo only likes sheffield and nottingham
<dneighbo> or whomever is playing manchester united
<psu> we very nearly didn't have a team in the Premier League
<psu> finished 17th place this season
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<psu> ra3vat: I appear to be sending you emails from DCL by mistake
<psu> if I can't work out how to stop them , just ignore them
<ra3vat> psu: ok, not a big problem
<madlocke> psu: is it a mistake? maybe he fixes all the probs ;)
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<dneighbo> maybe we shoudl get really complex and add more information to the lists for submitting bugs
<dneighbo> productname-support-bigfire@
<dneighbo> productname-support-pleasefix
<dneighbo> productname-support-nohurry
<jcater>  productname-support-patches
<dneighbo> for
<dneighbo> high
<dneighbo> medium
<dneighbo> low
<madlocke> productname-support-why-is-it-not-already-done
<dneighbo> jcater: actually i would like to do
<dneighbo> productname-patch@
<psu> productname-support-can-jcater-have-a-look-in-unlikely-event-ever-has-free-time@
<jcater> madlocke: yeah, we can forward that list to /dev/null
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> but i need to do some things in dcl to do what i want
<dneighbo> for immediate need we need to find out the issue why the upload file is failing
<dneighbo> for meantime patches should go to 
<siesel> dneighbo: congratulations!  3:2 against portugal. 
<dneighbo> projectname-support@
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<dneighbo> with the problem as text and the patch as attachment
<jcater> psu: I'm not that bad, am I?
<dneighbo> the attachment wont show on the ticket :(
<jcater> although I am in process of moving 
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> but it is the /tmp/ dir so we can get to it
<dneighbo> btw: soon there will be non web interfaces to dcl that developers can use to get at our dcl data :)
<dneighbo> which will make life better (at least for me, the hater of webui)
<dneighbo> and im looking into a gnue reports report
<dneighbo> of status
<psu> jcater: general rule of thumb is that your project time is always better spent doing important stuff
<psu> can't waste our AI on user requests ;-)
<dneighbo> adn will proably make it pushed to .html and automate it nightly for the website
<psu> dagnabit, DCL keeps insisting on sending ra3vat notices for my DCL work orders
<psu> Not that there's anything secret, just can't see what's triggering it
<ra3vat> psu: may it be a result of that i subscribed to notifying?
<ra3vat> psu: subscribed by myself that is
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<dneighbo> psu: he asked for it
<dneighbo> i.e. he put a 'watch' on it
<dneighbo> the product
<dneighbo> and so he gets cc'd
<psu> oh well, serves him right then ;-)
<dneighbo> exactly :)
<dneighbo> he problaby gets pissed at me once a week or so
<dneighbo> as generally i tend to dcl only one time a week and change a ton of stuff
<ra3vat> psu: asked to watch a secrets :)
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<psu_> ok, just assigned myself 12 WOs on DCL
<psu_> guess I'd better get started on actually doing some of them...
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<jcater> psu_: you are one sick puppy
<jcater> assigning yourself dcl workorders
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> hmm you must not be checking your mails
<dneighbo> we have a trust metric in DCL
<dneighbo> it says you can only assign a proportional amount of workorders
<dneighbo> example you can only assign 1 wo per 2 work orders to jcater or jamest
<dneighbo> so what psu was saying was
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<dneighbo> check your mail :)
<siesel> dneighbo: how can I set watches on products?
<dneighbo> login
<siesel> done
<dneighbo> and i think via admin->watches
<dneighbo> or product watches
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<siesel> admin->watches don't work. And I just don't find...ok found.
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<psu__> dunno if it's worth getting my nick back, or if another dial-up "moment" is coming...
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Nick change: jcater -> psu
<psu> there, I'll help you keep it available
<psu> :)
Nick change: psu -> jcater
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<dneighbo> siesel you got it worked out
<dneighbo> re watches
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<dneighbo> jcater im worried a bit now too
<dneighbo> seems over 250 downloads of forms/designer etc
<dneighbo> and no increase in traffic here or on mail lists
<madlocke> jamest: you reading?
<ajmitch> hi
<madlocke> hi ajmitch
Action: ajmitch thinks it quite worrying how quiet IRC is :)
<madlocke> jcater: maybe you can help too... i don't understand how the wx widgets get there new values after a click on prev/next record...
<siesel> hi ajmitch 
<madlocke> for queries the setvalue method is called after a few functions/events...
<madlocke> but for prev/next rec i don't understand it
<madlocke> currentrecord changes but where is a notify of the widgets?
Action: madlocke is confused
Action: madlocke sees that it works. just wants to know why ;)
Action: ajmitch will bbl
<madlocke> cu ah
<madlocke> ah=aj
<esands> dneighbo: does the cvs get tagged when there is a point release?
<dneighbo> yes
<jamest> yes
<jamest> madlocke: they are listeners
<madlocke> of which event?
<siesel> the main part of the guys downloading the new release seems to be UNIX based: (designer/forms.exe 48/38 hits common.zip 34 hits and common.tar.gz 98 hits)
<siesel> its quite interesting that the Designer tar.gz is downloaded more often than the forms one (104/98)
<dneighbo> where do you get 104/98
<siesel> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/stats/usage_200206.html#TOPURLS
<dneighbo> 10 295 0.29% 591 0.03% /downloads/common/ 11 291 0.29% 717 0.04% /downloads/designer/ 12 245 0.24% 652 0.03% /downloads/forms/ 13 204 0.20% 222 0.01% /downloads/appserver/
<dneighbo> grrr
<dneighbo> i see
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo> 291 designer 245 forms
<jamest> good luck getting designer working w/o forms
<jamest> madlocke: I don't recall
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> 295 common
<dneighbo> 204 appserver
<dneighbo> 109 reports
<dneighbo> i see you are going by actual tar.gz
<dneighbo> but in the release i put http://gnuenterprise.org/downloads/productname/
<dneighbo> not
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<dneighbo> a link to the exact file
<dneighbo> so the tar.gz numbers should be added to the other numbers
<dneighbo> but ofcourse just because they came in the directory doesnt mean they downloaded the files
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<chillywilly> howdy all
<siesel> hi chillywilly
<jcater> 'sup
<esands> chillywilly: I've got nfs running from a 50GB part. of xfs over lvm 
Action: chillywilly also has nfs working
<chillywilly> with xfs
Action: esands is reading logs from a couple days ago
<chillywilly> yea
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<chillywilly> anyone know about VNC as someone is asking me if they are all connected to the VNC server can someone spy on her
<esands> dneighbo: kick me if I'm stupid, but what is the cvs tag for the recent release?  I can't seem to find it with cvs history -T
<esands> "all connected" ?
<chillywilly> I dunno she's just a web master
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<esands> If vncviewers are connected to a vncserver running on her desktop then yes, those viewers can probably see stuff she sees.  
<chillywilly> that's what I told her
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<chillywilly> if she's not running a vnc server then they probably cannot see her desktop
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<esands> Unless they look over her shoulder
<chillywilly> well yea
<chillywilly> I think she just doesn't know wtf she is talking about
<chillywilly> she can't explain it properly to me
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<chillywilly> she's a bit non-techie oriented
<esands> heh, fear of the unknown and unexplainable is tricky.
<chillywilly> trying to ask me generic questions and if she is notified when they connect to her via vnc
<esands> If the server is not running then there is no way a client can connect.  Its the same with http or any client/server application
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<chillywilly> well I don't crap about vnc anyway
<StyXman> someone telll me: why does the <option> tag exist? even more, why does <options> exist?
<StyXman> is just a way to let some features not be implemented by some UIdriver?
<StyXman> if so, I think is the Wrong Way (tm)....
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<StyXman> ... and I'm open to discussion.
<esands> vnc is a damn useful product. Easy to tunnel over ssh, light weight.  Saved me having to fly to another city many times. ;)
Action: madlocke is stupid... just found this widget notify about i asked earlier
<StyXman> jcater?\
<jcater> options pre-date me
<madlocke> StyXman: what would you do if there were no more options left ;)
<madlocke> but you are right, does not look very good....
<madlocke> it's only used for tooltips and version numbers or do you know more option sections?
<jcater> options aren't part of the core code
<jcater> i.e., you could add your own option types and values to widgets
<jcater> and access those in triggers
<jcater> ..afk
<madlocke> phone...
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<madlocke> jcater: jep but for this i think there is the option to update existing xmlElements
<siesel> hi reinhard
<madlocke> and if an attribute is not marked as required
<madlocke> drivers not supporting it could just ignore it...
<jcater> for what?
<jcater> what are we talking about?
Action: jcater thought we were talking options in general
<madlocke> getting rid of options
<jcater> why?
<jcater> as options provide a way for developers to add non-standard values to objects
<madlocke> can you open the zipcode.gfd
<jcater> ok
<StyXman> jcater: ah, like ad hoc class members.
<jcater> in a way
<jcater> if you are arguing that tips, title, version, etc
<jcater> should be attributes and not options
<jcater> I will certainly go along with that
<madlocke> version is ok i think
<jcater> btu if you are arguing to get rid of options altogether
<madlocke> but for entries etc i makes no sense imo
<jcater> I don't agree there
<StyXman> madlocke: well, I teared off main{menu,tool}bar, and created new tags for them. they tell me to move them to <option> tags.
<jcater> I just think it'd make sense to have these non-standard things
<jcater> not cluttering up the main xml definition
<madlocke> if i understand it right, the main thing about a form parser
<StyXman> jcater: I agree too.
<madlocke> was to support everything required and interpret
<madlocke> it in it's own way and to be able to just ignore some things
<madlocke> like this it is natural that some renderers support more than others
<jcater> the form parser does not ignore anything
<jcater> the UI drivers can ignore things if they need to
<madlocke> as i was seeing in some files the xmlElements start to get split accross files
<madlocke> i like this because it binds the definition to the classes/objects
<madlocke> of course there must always be a minimal xmlElements for forms
<madlocke> but you could extent it for some widgets 
Action: jcater isn't fully following here
<madlocke> making an example
<jcater> the only xmlElements I remember being elsewhere are conditions and datasources
<madlocke> you have a button with picture and text
<madlocke> the basic definition only allows text
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<jcater> and the only reason for that is those xmlElements are identical for all tools...reports, forms, appserver
<madlocke> so for your mixed button you need a change in xmlElements
<madlocke> or you make options
<jcater> ok
<jcater> in this case
<jcater> if we all agreed to support mixed buttons, then an image tag would be added
<jcater> not options
<jcater> s/tag/attribute
<madlocke> but this image does not make sense with curses
<StyXman> madlocke: I would either add the image attr to button, or make a new button (I'm all for one for the former)
<madlocke> so you could say it is not necessary for an ui to have an image in a button
<StyXman> madlocke: then ncurses UIdriver should ignore the image attr
<madlocke> there it is: you ignore it, StyXman
<madlocke> but you need not change the basic xmlElements statically for havin images in buttons
<StyXman> madlocke: the UIdriver is the responsible to drop things it cannot do.
<madlocke> this special button could just extend the elements
<StyXman> madlocke: why not?
<StyXman> ok, you don't like to touch the originals? add a new entity
<madlocke> StyXman: because everybody developing a special widget must change basic xml defs..
<madlocke> yep..
<StyXman> yes, I do.
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I'm not following what's actually being discussed here
<madlocke> one more for jcater ;)
<jcater> are you saying we need to provide a way for the end-developer to add his own elements
<jcater> ?
<jcater> or
<StyXman> you should do a lot of things anyways. adding/modifying to xmlElements is just one of the steps.
<jcater> are you saying we need different xmlElements for different UI drivers
<madlocke> jcater: one basic xmlElements that could be extended by ui drivers
<jcater> see, I don't like that approach
<jcater> you end up with different DTDs for each UI driver
<madlocke> did not see any real dtd yet ;)
<jcater> and then you run into overlap issues
<StyXman> jcater: I actually would like to add new widgets without hacking gnue.
<jcater> madlocke: DTD in principle
<StyXman> but for now hacking it is nice
<jcater> StyXman: I totally agree we need to add that ability
<jcater> I'm not arguing against that
<jcater> however, I don't like the idea of our different UI drivers implementing their own xmlElements
<StyXman> and very instructive.
<StyXman> yeah, that's wrong
<jcater> ...work calls, brb
<StyXman> bye
<madlocke> jcater: i don't want that they are different that the basic definition
<madlocke> the basic should be a subset
<madlocke> a bit like deriving classes
<jcater> back
<jcater> yeah, I understand that
<jcater> but in the end, that's would it would turn into
<jcater> at least imho
<dneighbo> i think we are screwed if we make xml element dependent on drivers
<dneighbo> it goes against the goal of one xml file many UI's
<madlocke> dneighbo: there is no real dependency
<madlocke> dneighbo: other drivers could just ignore it because it is no basic thing
<StyXman> into?
<madlocke> in the example of images in buttons for example
<dneighbo> i want to be REAL careful about this
<StyXman> ah, into. 
<dneighbo> as we really would rather have a limited widget set that is almost 100% portable to all ui's
<madlocke> yep that's what the basic elements should contain
<dneighbo> than a billion widgets where you must look at a matrix to see what widgets will work with what ui drivers
<reinhard> a late "hi" to all
<dneighbo> if people want that they are better off using glade/gtk
<dneighbo> or qt
<StyXman> hi reinhard 
<dneighbo> or MFC/visual basic
<dneighbo> etc
<StyXman> gll.
<dneighbo> as soon as you start making items highly specific to a 'ui'
<dneighbo> what is the point in over head of abstraction
<dneighbo> imho
<madlocke> with these buttons again...
<StyXman> well, I think every new thing must be discussed somewhere, like here or any of the devel mlists.
<dneighbo> i suppose we get this so much that eventually if we dont do something eventually some one will force the issue with a fork
<madlocke> any ui driver can display a button with text but why would you deny a picture in a button
<madlocke> text drivers just ignore the tag
<dneighbo> i think we need to make a way to do supported/not supported
<dneighbo> so if people want to do wild stuff fine
<StyXman> even php-forms could do image-text buttosn.
<dneighbo> but we wont support it (i.e. if someone uses it and the developer goes by by they are on their own)
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> we define what is ok for OFFICIAL GNUe apps
<madlocke> i think it is a wrong way to bind a widget in a driver that handles data which another ui driver is not able to handle of course!
<jcater> madlocke: I disagree
<StyXman> ah, that's why menu and toolbars should go as opstions? 
<StyXman> I still think new tags are better.
<dneighbo> im talking with limited scope
<jcater> in GNUe-land, tags always correspond to objects
<dneighbo> but if my choice is
<madlocke> menu is a good other example... make it non required and it is ok for every ui driver
<dneighbo> <button img="path/to/image/image.png" align="center">
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> <img-button src="path/to/image/image.png" align="center">
<dneighbo> im gonna vote for the first one
<madlocke> it's not only about buttons...
<dneighbo> and have that be a property(attribute) of teh button tag
<madlocke> it's a general thing
<dneighbo> im gonna say its almost a case by case basis
<dneighbo> in case of image in a button
<madlocke> i would recommend a <button img="something" text="something"/>
<dneighbo> im gonna say make it a property where TEXT must not be null
<madlocke> because a curses driver can't display the image...
<madlocke> so text must be required...!
<dneighbo> this way curses just ignors img
<jcater> well, I will reiterate my view: I don't want separate XML schemas for each UI driver
<yogurt2unge> im gonna vote for the first option
<dneighbo> but if you start say lets do a toolbar
<dneighbo> with a toolbar tag
<dneighbo> i get nervous
<madlocke> erm... hm..
<dneighbo> as curses supporting a toolbar is a much larger stretch
<madlocke> a button is something essential
<dneighbo> we have buttons
<madlocke> you need it for saying yes or no
<madlocke> of course you can type 'yes' in a text field, too but
<madlocke> that is not required because i thing it is possible for every ui driver to support buttons
<madlocke> with buttons you make very basic things
<madlocke> so a button must be able to display for every ui
<madlocke> as curses cannot display buttons, the text attr must be required
<madlocke> for every other ui too
<StyXman> jcater: that's out od question.
<madlocke> if you don't do it the gfd could not be displayed in all drivers anymore
<StyXman> dneighbo: ncurses UIdriver could ingore the <toolbar? thing
<madlocke> so i want a basic xmlElements that MUST be supported
<madlocke> and basic requirements MUST NOT be changed
<StyXman> madlocke: eh?
<madlocke> but you could add atts or tags with a ui driver that are not really required
<madlocke> erm... hm.. think i am confusing everyone here..
<StyXman> madlocke: no, jcater has a point there.
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<StyXman> madlocke: just let me reread it.
<StyXman> madlocke: you meant 'as curses cannot display image buttons, ...', ain't you?
<StyXman> hi Chipaca 
<madlocke> yep
<StyXman> no, I still think jcater has a point on 'no, dtd per uidriver is bad'
<madlocke> why?
<madlocke> what's the bad thing about it?
<madlocke> the dtd is not very different. only extended
<StyXman> cause then you could easily get clash of entities/tags names in different UIdrivers, for a start
<Chipaca> madlocke: because if you write a valid gfd, it should make a form with any of the drivers
<Chipaca> madlocke: even if it is missing some gizmo if the driver doesn't support it
<siesel> about the image buttons: I think its better to use the simple name <button> which any uidriver understands and add options for new features like image, etc.  like in HTML there is only one <INPUT tag> which has many types 
<madlocke> Chipaca: yep... that's not against what i am saying
<Chipaca> e.g. an optional and possibly ignored 'img' attribute for buttons
<Chipaca> siesel: agreed
<StyXman> madlocke: the thing is, how do you say a .gfd is valid? I mean, which is the .dtd you're using?
<yogurt2unge> siesel: yes
<jcater> siesel: that's the general plan with most things GNUe
<StyXman> no, <button type="img"> is *ugly*.
<Chipaca> siesel: and still have the required text field so the text driver would know what to do, while the gtk driver could use that text as a tooltip
<madlocke> StyXman: it is valid if the basic xmlElements is ok for the gfd
<madlocke> StyXman: ok i see the prob... let me thing
<madlocke> thing=think
<Chipaca> I recommend <button img="thing" text="A thing"/>
<Chipaca> :)
<StyXman> madlocke: wrong answer. you check xmls against dtd's, not some possible broken parser
<dneighbo> not that people here are too interested but there are new screenshots of designer v0.3.0 up
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=NS-My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&gid=4&offset=0&orderby=titleA
<yogurt2unge> Chipaca: ack
<madlocke> StyXman: if you want a strict dtd like defined in xml spec then i ask why you are doing this xmlElements
<jcater> madlocke: we can generate DTDs from our xmlElements
<madlocke> i think it is because it is easier and sometimes more flexible
<jcater> :)
<madlocke> jcater: for what? for saying we have a dtd?
<jcater> dneighbo: cool
<jcater> madlocke: we just can
<jcater> people are always requesting DTDs
<jcater> so we are writing a script that will generate a DTD from xmlElements
<StyXman> and are the *way* to check xml's
<jcater> I honestly don't know why anyone would want them
<jcater> but it's not a big jump to make them
<jcater> so we are
<jcater> dneighbo: we just need to get you off of those silly gnome themes and into KDE
<jcater> :)
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<madlocke> is it not possible with schema to extend definitions... hm... :)
<dneighbo> jcater: gnome theme?
<dneighbo> im not running gnome
Action: jcater realized I was looking at old png's after I said that
<dneighbo> well techinically im running gnome as much as a kde user does to use forms :)
<jcater> actually, I like the simple theme you have ther4e
<dneighbo> but desktop/wm now is fluxbox
<StyXman> ok, leave desktop things. get back to tags/dtd by uidriver thing :)
<StyXman> namely, get back to work! :)
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<madlocke> hm... the only prob i see is whene two different extensions conflict
<madlocke> everything else can be handled as superset of attrs
<reinhard> siesel: i saw the commit for the gcd parser
<StyXman> madlocke: and that;s a aproblem by itself.
<madlocke> btw how would the dtd look like for options?
<StyXman> madlocke: don't even ask.
<reinhard> it's your choice; we have a _working_ gcd parser in the old geas code
<madlocke> in what way is that different?
<reinhard> in c
<reinhard> maybe you would want to write a python wrapper around that instead of reimplementing it
<madlocke> hm...
<StyXman> also, are there xml elements ouside GFPArser.py?
<jcater> StyXman: yes
<StyXman> sucking kbd...
<jcater> look in common/src/GConditions.py
<StyXman> jcater: why, can I ask?
<jcater> (for shared conditional support)
<siesel> hmmm. I've been scolded for even touching the gcd stuff. ;)
<madlocke> or datasources, ...
<jcater> and common/src/GDataSources.py
<jcater> StyXman: because Reports, Forms, AppServer all support the same database tags
<StyXman> it's against the dtd reason.
<jcater> StyXman: not really
<jcater> as GFParser manually pulls in those two sources
<StyXman> and? MB you should move the parser to common.
<jcater> the parser is in common
<jcater> GParser.py
<jcater> all GFParser does is define *forms* specific tags
<StyXman> jcater: yes, but xmlElements are in forms
<jcater> you lost me
<siesel> reinhard: what is the status of the files in the package dirs? pre-alpha alpha beta?
<StyXman> so, is there a way to generate a complete dtd? uh, shit wrong. no, I thing that if you give a dtd, be it the real dtd, the one you can use to check .gfd's and the others.
<madlocke> jcater: is it possible to define this <import*> with a dtd?
<jcater> yes
<madlocke> and even parse the files being imported?
<StyXman> madlocke: to import other dtd's?
<reinhard> siesel: result of a _very_ long discussin, but still not finally decided upon :)
<dneighbo> siesel / reinhard i still go back to the gcd's we have now are worthless
<dneighbo> without an object/relational mapper
<madlocke> StyXman: nope, there is a tag which imports parts of a gfd i.e.
<dneighbo> i think it best to get trigger support without that first
Action: crazymike loves you guys
<dneighbo> muting the point about gcd's
<StyXman> madlocke: are they relocatable?
<madlocke> don't know...
<StyXman> I mean, can you position the whole thing with just one x,y?
<madlocke> question is if it is really important to be able to have dtds...
<dneighbo> once we get to a gcd state it should be xml
<dneighbo> and we shouldnt have much work in parsing it
<dneighbo> as we have a working xml parser already
<jcater> StyXman/madlocke: that's currently more for importing datasources/etc, than for importing UI widgets
<dneighbo> which would imho be much quicker than wrapping the old one
<jcater> madlocke: to me, that means, is it important to have a well-defined, common xml structure
<jcater> more so than "do we need a .DTD file"
<StyXman> madlocke: you can give it or not. I think xml philosofy forces you to give it. just for static cheking
<reinhard> dneighbo: i very much believe that anything siesel does currently is very much quicker than anything i do
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<siesel> dneighbo: if you look in the appserver/ROADMAP there is no object/relational mapper mentioned.
<reinhard> if i look at my calendar for the next weeks :(
<madlocke> i like things being very dynamic...
<madlocke> understand you critics... but...
<dneighbo> siesel right, and im saying the current gcd's have almost no methods
<StyXman> madlocke: you can do things dynamic, but be carefull when thinking in forms widgets.
Action: jamest feels his maintainer sense tingling
<dneighbo> they are mostly properties (field definitions)
Action: jamest dives for the off switch
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<dneighbo> but they are laidout like objects which makes them horrid for relational access
<StyXman> we don't need that lot of widgets. I think just a couple more is enough
<madlocke> the discussion started with opions against new tags/attrs...
<dneighbo> and why i say they are not highly useful w/o an object/relational mapper (imho)
<siesel> dneighbo: i have counted ONE method has code 
<madlocke> jcater: if i put all extensions between <option> then it would be ok for you?
<dneighbo> believe me i wish more than anyone that i could put those gcd's to use
<StyXman> madlocke: a img attr is right.
<dneighbo> so now that im confused on this ui think
<dneighbo> would we see this
<jcater> madlocke: I think it needs to be discussed
<jcater> we need specifics
<dneighbo> <button text="foo">
<dneighbo>   <option>
<StyXman> next widget, come and discuss it here. do it case by case.
<dneighbo>   <img src="pathtofile/file.png"/>
<dneighbo>   </option>
<dneighbo> </button>
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<StyXman> I don't like that.
<madlocke> hm...
<jcater> dneighbo: actually, that would be:
<jcater> <button text="foo"><option name="src" value="pathtofile/file.png"/></button>
<jcater> given our current parser
<jcater> but same idea
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> im just wondering would the img
<StyXman> the option class should then be too much clever, like yo know what widget definition was it invoked
<dneighbo> be like tooltips
<dneighbo> and is this why we did tool tips this way
<Chipaca> why don't we do something like docbook?
<Chipaca> i.e. a 'role' attribute?
<StyXman> Chipaca: ah?
<StyXman> I guess html is right, when saying that renderer should render what it knows about and ignore the rest.
<Chipaca> StyXman: in docbook you can tag (uhm, attribute) a tag with say 'role=web' and that entity will only be rendered by renderers that want to do web content
<Chipaca> StyXman: no really, because that can quickly lead to conflicting extensions
<Chipaca> StyXman: as in HTML
<StyXman> that way uidrivers that cannot show imgs should ignore img attr.
<StyXman> and I said attribute.
<dneighbo> again i stress we need to be cautious on this stuff
<madlocke> don't like the role very much because it is not really needed...
<StyXman> Chipaca: no, if you keep that on closed (discussed) attribs. no local definitions, just definitions in gnue.
<madlocke> and could make things more difficult
<StyXman> contrib/forked code is just that.
<madlocke> dneighbo: of course... i see the problems with it...
<StyXman> I still think option is very difficult to implement.
<madlocke> just like the idea of being able to extend everything.
<StyXman> think: the option tag has a GOption class
<madlocke> but of course not breaking it
<dneighbo> im not against extending
<dneighbo> im concerned with management of it
<dneighbo> example if i tout gnue as being win32, curses, gtk, html etc
<StyXman> that should know in which context it was invoked
<dneighbo> and all of a sudden its littered with custom widgets that work on only one or two of these ui's
<StyXman> (that clas...)
<dneighbo> and someone downloads a GNUe 'app' and cant get it to run on but one UI
<jamest> custom widgets!?!?!?!?!?
<jamest> argh!!!!!!!!!
<Chipaca> dneighbo: agreed. custom widgets are bad
<dneighbo> we are the laughing stock, boy who cried wolf, JAVA
<dneighbo> and why i say, lets be careful
Action: jamest grabs the off switch on the cvs server
<madlocke> dneighbo: sure
<dneighbo> im very much pro letting people extend themselves into a single UI
<madlocke> lol @jamest
<jamest> back demons!
<dneighbo> but i want to make sure that it doesnt tarnish GNUe as a whole
<StyXman> dneighbo: no, you should force all the widgets to get drawn on all uidrives or be not required
<dneighbo> and that it can be managed properly
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<StyXman> like toolbars or menubars
<dneighbo> StyXman i tend to agree
<dneighbo> i would like to only support widgets
<madlocke> StyXman: yep that is what i want
<dneighbo> that can be expressed or be optional(on all ui's)
<dneighbo> no option BY UI
<madlocke> dneighbo: yep, too
<dneighbo> i.e. if i make an image widget that is for a HR application to display employee picture
<dneighbo> obviously this wont show in curses 
<madlocke> not by but from ui...
<dneighbo> but could on teh web or such
<madlocke> ;)
<StyXman> madlocke: but options is baaaad
<dneighbo> but if the application NEEDS it for ANY ui
<StyXman> <option>'s, I eant
<madlocke> StyXman: option or new tag is still a different thing
<StyXman> meant
<dneighbo> it shouldnt be a widget
<dneighbo> imho
<jcater> StyXman: I think these are different issues
<jcater> StyXman: I will agree we need to discuss the use of options
<madlocke> at the moment i want to discuss extending... later back to options or new tags...
<madlocke> :)
<dneighbo> i.e. if a widget is mandatory for the application to work
<jcater> StyXman: and I will start a gnue-dev discussion if you'd like
<dneighbo> its real hard to say well the widget only works on X
<dneighbo> as that means the application only works on X
<madlocke> dneighbo: no...!
<StyXman> ok, extending: yes.
<madlocke> if you have a menu to access pages
<StyXman> with 'a dtd per uidriver', no
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (~rm@M695P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate"
<madlocke> and you have tabpages too... crazy example but maybe easy to understand
<madlocke> then it works for x
<madlocke> and for curses
<jamest> an dtd per uidriver!?!?!
Action: dneighbo still thinks you can do tabs/menus for curses
<madlocke> if you can't display on curses
<madlocke> it's only an extension
<StyXman> yes, mandatory widgets should render on al uidrivers
<madlocke> but an extension that is not needed to let the app work
<madlocke> grrr...
<StyXman> jamest: it was mentioned once...
<dneighbo> just like a 'combobox' doesnt exist in curses
<madlocke> then a menu that takes input from a microphone :)
<dneighbo> but i think with curses you can 'fudge' one
<madlocke> and works only on macos
<StyXman> madlocke: I agree.
<madlocke> it would be ok to have it, but not needed.
<StyXman> madlocke: stop dreaming
<StyXman> the menu will get mic input if the whole desktop can
<dneighbo> i guess i dont understand teh discussion
<jcater> that's my problem
<madlocke> hm....
<jcater> I'm still lost as to what we are discussing
<dneighbo> as what you stated before seemed to contradict what my thinking was
<madlocke> maybe i draw some examples and send them next week when i have more time
<dneighbo> but now you say you agree with the line of thinking
<StyXman> we're discussing extentions.
<siesel> dneighbo: the employee picture could be like that <label x="17" y="1" name="userpix" text="UserX"><option name="src" value="pathtofile/file.png"/></label>
<madlocke> dneighbo: it is too different things....
<madlocke> too=two
<StyXman> can we extend/make new widgets without hacking gnue?
<StyXman> that's the question
<madlocke> but i will make it clear with some pictures soon
<dneighbo> StyXman i dont think thats the only question
<jcater> StyXman: I think that's your question :)
<jcater> StyXman: and the answer with that is we intend to
<dneighbo> i 100% agree one should be able to extend GNUe without pulling off their fingernails
<jcater> StyXman: but you can't currently do it well without getting into GNUe internals
<madlocke> maybe pictures that are not in buttons. lol
<StyXman> siesel: options! arggggg!
<dneighbo> but thats a different question to me than how to address customization
<jcater> StyXman: but you already know that :)
<StyXman> jcater: no, it's the first question
<madlocke> the question options or new tags is a different to me
<madlocke> more important for me is how to extend the stuff
<StyXman> madlocke: ui is *not*, repeat, *not* graphical.
<madlocke> relation between basic elements and ui elements
<madlocke> StyXman: no that's why i use the term ui and not gui ;)
<dneighbo> i liked the futbol discussions better, psu where did you go?
<dneighbo> ;)
<madlocke> but i hope you would a accept a picutre explaning it anyway ;)
<StyXman> so, don't pretend graphic things to work
<siesel> if we don't want to use options, then there is a need for an forms extention interface where you can add new types with ease and in an standart way 
<StyXman> so, about if you can extend or not, yes, you can. for the moment, hack in gnue.
<StyXman> *but*, don't do things that must be present in your app to work and being graphical at the same time
<StyXman> dneighbo: argentina will kick ass on friday
<madlocke> dneighbo: btw. was seeing some pictures of ireland:germany...
<madlocke> the game was 1 minute too long ;)
<StyXman> siesel: I don't think that's so necesary. I think just a couple more of widgets would do the thing. then, the res can be dependant, like menues or toolbars\
Action: dneighbo loves german team and leagues, but tying ireland just pissed me off
<dneighbo> StyXman : i htink England is on a pay back mission
<StyXman> dependant in the sense that they could not be rendered and the app still works
<dneighbo> you guys could be in trouble (though they looked pitiful against sweden) so you probalby need not worry :)
<dneighbo> StyXman btw, did you guys release papo?
<dneighbo> i.e. is it useable yet?
Action: madlocke wonders what papo is
<dneighbo> an application using gnue framework
<StyXman> dneighbo: it's out. check out savannah.gnu.org/projects/papo
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<dneighbo> is it something usable
<dneighbo> i.e. do the forms work and such
<StyXman> madlocke: I would tell you what does papo mean reallly
<madlocke> but?
<StyXman> dneighbo: yes, *the* form works. it's in is phoetal stage, but works.
<StyXman> but 'ERP for SMO's' shuld be enough
<StyXman> brb
<madlocke> from argentinia you are... ah, was already wondering about that spanish stuff
<madlocke> we still need somebody from africa :)
<StyXman> well, one can say that yogurt2unge is from there....
<StyXman> but that's just a joke
<StyXman> so. resuming:
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<madlocke> maybe i try this discussion again without pictures... hm... or is it better to run... :)
<StyXman> madlocke: just run. I'll finish them :)
<StyXman> ok, then
<StyXman> extensions go to the main xmlElements
<madlocke> how are combo boxes printed on curses terminal?
<StyXman> uidrivers ignore things they don't know about
<madlocke> dneighbo: ?
<StyXman> graphical things are not required.
<StyXman> madlocke: a text entry with a 'V' at the right
<siesel> dneighbo: just two things about appserver for clarification: 1. triggers can just work if there is some kind of class/table definition and a namespace. This has to be populated somehow. (f.e. by gcds). 2. there is already some kind of a very very simple object-relational mapping engine in appserver/_featuretest. This should be merged with appserver to a full functional odmg compatible appserver after the 1.0 release of appserver acording 
<StyXman> press the V, a list bos appears, just like you expect it.
<StyXman> I was saying...
<StyXman> graphical things are not required.
<StyXman> especially when talking about app functionality.
<madlocke> you could print a tooltip to on curses..
<StyXman> I think that answers the first part of the question
<madlocke> just bind the appearing of it to a key...
<StyXman> madlocke: eventually, yes.
<madlocke> so maybe it is wrong to say tooltip is an option...
<madlocke> ;)
<StyXman> madlocke: or whatever. tooltips are not required.
<siesel> StyXmann: yes, but keep it simple. A good designed text only screen can help you input stuff much faster than all that windowZ stuff
<StyXman> that's another discussion
<StyXman> siesel: I agree totally.
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<jamest> forms should always fail gracefully
<StyXman> graphical things are just for someones call beauty
<jamest> when the curses interface worked it knew nothing about dropdowns
<StyXman> jamest: fail? no, they shouldn't :)
<jamest> but downdown forms still worked fine
<madlocke> jamest: just would be bad if you get a segmentation fault from wx while playing the "i will crash now" video ;)
<StyXman> jamest: I don't understand what you're saying
<jamest> as the concept of <entry> was supported and it just ignored the style of dropdown
<StyXman> jamest: but how it worked, then?
<jamest> in the objects it still validated that the entry value was in the dropdown list
<StyXman> I think dropdowns are basic widgets
<jamest> they are
<jamest> but they were implemented in wx driver first
<StyXman> hmmm, yes, but as long as you put the entry in the widget, it becomes non optional.
<siesel> StyXmann: if there would be a way to display pictures of  famous popstars, a horse etc. in the background of a text terminal. Nobody would say it isn't beauty.  
<jamest> and the curses client didn't know they existed
<StyXman> but, options for widgets or non-essential ones could be ignored
<madlocke> siesel: there could be more beautiful things ;)
<jamest> but it was still just an entry so the curses driver just worked
<jamest> not using the UI widget logic to validate input (a huge mistake IMHO) let the form fail gracefully back
<madlocke> jamest: if you make a menu widget, curses will still work even if it can't display it.
<madlocke> jamest: because for the app you would not need a menu...
<jamest> that's why you'll not see <dropdown> or <graphicbox> widgets in anything I do
<madlocke> difficult to say, that a menu is a option of something...
<jamest> as I think it should be simple
<jcater> madlocke: not the menu
<jamest> madlocke: right
<jcater> but whether the standard menu should be displayed or not
siesel (jan@dial-213-168-91-1.netcologne.de) left irc: "An apple a day keeps bill gates away!"
<jamest> the curses client didn't do a menu
<jamest> at first
<StyXman> madlocke: only if the app does not rely on thsat widget to work. ncurses will work, the app don't
<madlocke> StyXman: that's the basic thing, of course
<jamest> the idea was that if some things be tagged as required
<StyXman> madlocke: an optional tag, yes
<StyXman> an optional rendered one, yes
<jamest> so that is the ui driver could not display the pic of an employee on a HR form it could still work
<madlocke> the problem with this and i think that is why dneighbo complains is:
<jamest> but a form that dealt with scanned xrays would be useless so it would say GUI display required
<madlocke> (one of his complaints ;)
<madlocke> if a user sees this menu
<StyXman> the, required tags/attrs should be rendered on al uidrivers or not esxist at all
<madlocke> and says "wow a menu widget"
<StyXman> like box, it's required. menubar does not.
<madlocke> that's what i have been waiting for so long
<madlocke> and uses it and makes the app depend on it
<madlocke> you'll get into real trouble for other drivers...
<madlocke> then you'll have win32 gfds or X gfds , ...
<jamest> if it's considered core then it has to be in all drivers
<jamest> even if the menu on curses came up on hot key
<StyXman> madlocke: that's a bas developer or just oine that does not care about portability. let it go to hell.
<StyXman> s/bas/bad/
<jamest> but the # of widgets available will be kept small
<StyXman> s/oine/one/
<jamest> as I'm not wanting to recreate Glade or GTK or QT
<StyXman> jamest: # of core ones, yes.
<StyXman> the others are optional. again, like menubar
<jamest> as I think they are pure hell in terms of overload and complexity
<StyXman> jamest: they have another target. that's all.
<StyXman> or not. nevermind.
<jamest> forms is primarily aimed at getting data from one source (a user for instance) to a data store
<StyXman> ok, do we all agree on this?
<jamest> on what?
<StyXman> that core things should be rendered by all uidrivers, and optional not
<StyXman> are just that, optional.
<jamest> i think that's in the original forms documentation
<jamest> but it's been a long time since I read that part ;)
<StyXman> yes, but madlocke doesn't seem to understand
<StyXman> no offending intention there.
<madlocke> StyXman: i do... but it were two different things...
<madlocke> one thing is if you can extend things
<madlocke> second thing is how
<StyXman> extentions are optional or not, depending if here are considered core or not.
<madlocke> then there is still jcaters complains about how to make a dtd when allowing extensions
<madlocke> so is a dtd necessary?
<StyXman> if you come with a super-giga widget that does zillions of things simply, then it should be discussed if it's core or not.
<StyXman> simple, keep it in the core parser.
<StyXman> hack gnue if you want to hack gnue
<jcater> madlocke: no, that's not my complaint
<StyXman> nessesary? I think yes, but not really.
<jcater> I could care less whether we actually have a DTD or not
<madlocke> erm who was it... think i was reading it somewhere...
<jcater> but I DO think our XML schema should be representable in a DTD fashion
<StyXman> I mean, I would like to have one, but maybe is not everybody's opinion.
<jcater> BECAUSE if it is, that means we have a structured XML schema
<StyXman> agree
<jcater> that isn't changing for the end user based on various factors
<jcater> (such as which UI they are using)
<madlocke> jcater: but with extension you really may get different dtds for different uis
<jcater> that's my point
<jcater> exactly
<jcater> which is what I want to avoid
<madlocke> that's way i am talking of two different things... :)
<StyXman> madlocke: wrong. keep it in the main parser. then you get just one dtd. simple
<madlocke> "1.allowing it or not. 2 if yes, how?"
<jcater> this is where I'm confused
<madlocke> StyXman: you want to make extensions in the main parser?
<jcater> as I thought my opinion on #1 was well voiced tonight
<madlocke> ??
<StyXman> extensions an in 'take this patch and apply it to gnue's code before intalling' are off the case.
<StyXman> madlocke: I already done two, except they haven't been discussed yet. I'm waiting to the 'how' stuff
<StyXman> and I'm running out of time.
<StyXman> I would like to close that subject today, now that the discussion is on the board
<jcater> StyXman: sorry, we were busy with releases
<jcater> we haven't forgotten about your patches
<StyXman> jcater: it was not a complain. 
<StyXman> you have better things to do, and I realize that. I keep my patches locally by now.
<StyXman> someday they'll become public to discuss.
<jcater> madlocke: let me restate my viewpoint before I leave:
<madlocke> StyXman: can you explain the extensions that you made?
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<jcater> I am NOT opposed to allowing end developers to add extensions to GNUe that are not supported by us. (Custom controls, if you will).  I think it's a BAD idea, but I'm not opposed to it.
<jcater> I AM opposed to having GNUe-supported UI's (or anything else "official") extend the base XML schema.
<jcater> I must run home
<jcater> but will be back on
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<StyXman> shi, what happened? been kick off due to flood? just *typing*?
<madlocke> you were typing to fast ;)
<StyXman> what was my las mesg?
<madlocke> <StyXman> someday they'll become public to discuss.
<StyXman> ok
<StyXman> <StyXman> madlocke: 1 allowing? yes.
<madlocke> j<jcater> I am NOT opposed to allowing end developers to add extensions to GNUe that are not supported by us. (Custom controls, if you will).  I think it's a BAD idea, but I'm not opposed to it.
<madlocke> <jcater> I AM opposed to having GNUe-supported UI's (or anything else "official") extend the base XML schema.
<madlocke> <jcater> I must run home
<madlocke> <jcater> but will be back on
<StyXman> he's gone
<madlocke> StyXman: for 2) you would like to do it without options, right?
<madlocke> (was just repeating what he said, when you were kicked)
<StyXman> madlocke: yeap. tags or attrs. it's the best
<madlocke> i want the same but i understand the problems the others have with it
<madlocke> explain me your patch work please?
<StyXman> madlocke: and the problems are? I never got a real answer to that.
<StyXman> madlocke: just kicks off toolbar and menubar and makes then optional.
<StyXman> we want X uidriver to not draw them
<StyXman> and new tags <maintoolbar> and <mainmenubar> were added.
<madlocke> if you make a menubar officially supported a user makes a form using a menubar with gnue and it does not
<StyXman> they wanted them as <option>'s
<madlocke> work with all ui drivers
<StyXman> madlocke: actually, x uidriver draws the menu bar without asking you.
<StyXman> we want it off.
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<StyXman> and toolbar too
<StyXman> and optionally, will come custom toobars/menubars
<StyXman> but that's far away in time
<madlocke> was thinking you are talking about custom menus/toolbars all the time ;)
<StyXman> no, the ones alredy there.
<madlocke> why would somebody not want to see mainmenu?
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<madlocke> StyXman: ?
<madlocke> hm... need to go ...
<madlocke> have to get up early tomorrow...
<madlocke> cu
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<StyXman> ah, jcater's back...
<StyXman> jcater: you hear?
<StyXman> ok, gone anyways
<StyXman> can we discuss <option> against <tag>/<attr=""> thing tomorrow?
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<dneighbo> well fine im leaving too
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<dneighbo> stayed here longer than planned (sigh)
<dneighbo> but i did download and test drive PAPO :)
<dneighbo> for anyone interested http://www.gnuenteprise.org/
<dneighbo> should have a new story about PAPO with linkage and screenshots :)
<dneighbo> its kind of cool to see spanish forms :)
<ajmitch> hehe, cool
<dneighbo> bad though that im too dumb to change my locale
<dneighbo> so that tool tips such would be spanish
<ajmitch> interesting, dns problems...
<ajmitch> but only with galeon
<ajmitch> ah
Action: ajmitch should know not to trust links on irc
<dneighbo> yeah i cant speel
<dneighbo> er spell even
<dneighbo> leaving for real now
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<chillywilly> Isomer: you here?
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<chillywilly> mmmmmm, pizzza
<esands> mmmmm, icecream 
<dsmith> mmmm, FreeBSD
<esands> Openbsd on a 64Mb CF 8P
<dsmith> esands: What's a "CF 8P" ?
<esands> Compact Flash, then a smily.  
<dsmith> Ah
Action: dsmith goes off to check his obsd system
<esands> setting up a net4501 at the moment
<esands> at home and I discovered some ice cream in the fridge. ;)
<dsmith> $ uname -a
<dsmith> OpenBSD portal 2.8 GENERIC#399 i386
<dsmith> $ uptime
<dsmith> 10:58PM  up 161 days,  9:52, 2 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.09, 0.08
<esands> hmm
<esands>  2:59PM  up 293 days,  1:18, 1 user, load averages: 2.21, 2.11, 2.09
<esands> heh heh
<dsmith> heh
<dsmith> real mem  = 33140736 (32364K)
<esands> Of course I read somewhere is quite trival to change the running uptime in openbsd
<dsmith> That's my firewall
<esands> small
<dsmith> Yep. junk box
<esands> I've got a few openbsd firewalls around the place.  Nice.
Action: esands hates iptables
<dsmith> I've tried it as a desktop (well, laptop) os.  It's just not there yet.
<dsmith> Not enough in the ports
<esands> definitely. Linux still has better application support for the desktop
<dsmith> Yep.  And it's so easy with Debian (my main os)
<esands> apt-get all the way. 8)
<dsmith> :)
<dsmith> But ice-cream sounds good too.
<esands> esp New Zealand creamly ice cream. ;)
<esands> one of the best reasons to live here. 8)
<dsmith> Hmm.
Action: dsmith wanders off, looking for food
Action: dsmith gives up
Action: jcater dcc's dsmith a spair donut
<jcater> oh, wait.. I have no spair donuts
<dsmith> jcater: Thanks for the effort
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> fuck BSD
Action: dsmith shakes his head
<esands> hmm
<chillywilly> for the record iptables rules
<dsmith> bah
<jcater> which bsd?
<jcater> free, open, net
<dsmith> For firewalls? Open!
<jcater> well, yeah
<jcater> that's a given
<dsmith> For laptops? Debain Linux!
Action: jcater has a highly customized OpenBSD firewall hiding my entire company
<dsmith> 'cuse me GNU/Linux
<jcater> no Debian GNU/BSD?
<dsmith> I wish
Action: jcater wants to see about getting GNUe into FreeBSD ports
<esands> There is in fact
<jcater> yip
<dsmith> Maybe if they just replaced ports with debs and apt-get and not the base system.
<esands> IIRC both Debian/NetBSD and /Openbsd 
<esands> See Debian Weekly News - April 17th, 2002 for the Debian/Openbsd mention
<dsmith> The Debian/NetBSD people want to replace the whole system, except the kennel, with .deb packages.
<dsmith> I don't think that's a good idea.  I like the way the base system and the kernel are in sync.
<esands> Goes both ways I think
<esands> For instance ssh updates would be nice sometimes as a deb (in openbsd).  Esp for smaller router installations. 
<esands> Having to "cvs up" and compile binaries for ssh on a P5/133 router is not nice. 
<dsmith> Hmm.
<dsmith> OpenBSD is a pain to upgrade anyway. Not near as refined as FreeBSD
<esands> I could of course compile else where and 'try' find the right binaries to install, but thats a pain when you are in a rush
<esands> I've never used freebsd, I've taken one machine from 2.6 to 2.9 via cvs upgrades. 8)
<dsmith> Did you install from cdrom, or Inet?
<esands> cvs up
<dsmith> I meant initially.
<esands> Initally from cdrom, then a few from ftp snapshots. I tend to buy a CD a year to support the project
<esands> Try this for debs on openbsd: http://non-us.debian.org/~andreas/obsd/ ;)
<dsmith> Hmm. Intresting.
<Isomer> chillywilly: ?
<chillywilly> I was wondering before what IRC network you helped admin
<chillywilly> that was you I am thinking of right?
<Isomer> yeah, Undernet.
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> I thought it was efnet
<Isomer> I talk to the people that code on (one of) the EFnet code bases
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I can never use their network
<chillywilly> it tells me I am not authorized ;)
<Isomer> install ident :)
<Isomer> EFnet are big on requiring ident for some strange reason
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--- Thu Jun  6 2002