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<ajmitch> hi Isomer
<esands> NZ gathering. ;)
<ajmitch> yo esands :)
<Isomer> G'evenin'
<ajmitch> so what's happening up your way?
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<esands> elections on the 27th.  Should be fun
<ajmitch> oh? interesting
<ajmitch> which month? ;)
<esands> july
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> i can't see national winning this time
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<esands> no
<Isomer> heh
<ajmitch> morning psu
<esands> it'll certainly be a very strange on
<esands> one
<psu> hiya
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<btami> morning
<psu> hi btami
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<mgedmin> hi
<mgedmin> is there any reason why irc logs on http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/ use pretty unsortable date format?
Action: mgedmin prefers ISO 8601 yyyy-mm-dd
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<siesel> Hello and good morning
<Yurik> not good as it could be :)
<dtm> hi all
<siesel> hi dtm
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<siesel_> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> hi
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Action: Isomer agrees with mgedmin
Action: Isomer ponders if psu is in charge of the logs
<ajmitch> ?
Action: ajmitch does not understand
<Isomer> [19:33:27] <mgedmin> is there any reason why irc logs on http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/ use pretty unsortable date format?
<Isomer> [19:33:37] * mgedmin prefers ISO 8601 yyyy-mm-dd
<Isomer> :)
<ajmitch> ah
<ajmitch> i think jamest controls the bot
Action: ajmitch goes to sleep
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<siesel> football time !
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<Arturas> Hello
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<robble> hey can someone give me a hand installing gnue common please
<robble> i get an error
<robble> is it ok to flood 10 lines ?
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<Arturas> yes
<robble> ./setup.py  install
<robble> Traceback (innermost last):
<robble>   File "./setup.py", line 27, in ?
<robble>     from src import VERSION
<robble>   File "./src/__init__.py", line 106
<robble>     text += "%s\n" % strings[:index]
<robble>           ^
<robble> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
<robble>  GNUe-Common-0.3.0
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<siesel> hi all
<Arturas> Hi Jan
<Arturas> robble: thanks for showing it
<Arturas> it should be corrected in the nearest time
Action: robble likes the fast pace here :)
<robble> Arturas:  whats the status of gnu enterprise ?
<robble> are the core components ready for applications to be built ?
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<siesel> robble: I don't know how do you understand ready, but GNUe is already used in production environments.
<robble> ahh
<robble> is there a way around that error i get ?
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<Gedanken> morning guys
<Arturas> Gedanken: hi
<siesel> (as 2 Tier)
<siesel> for more information you should ask dneighbo, jamest or jcater. They should be here in some hours. 
<siesel> btw. this error installing forms, on which platform did it occur and using which python version ?
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<robble> RH 7.3
<robble> python 1.5.2
<Arturas> robble: maybe you can try setup-cvs as a temporary decision
<robble> Arturas: yep, im just getting the cvs now
<robble> haha , i like the last line of the top 10 questions
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<Arturas> robble: from installation manual
<Arturas> #
<Arturas> Since stock RH7.2 installs Python 1.5.2 you will need to install Python2.1 and the Python2.1-devel package. This is easy because the RPMs are on Disc2. Install them with rpm -Uvh <package name>. Now this install doesn't remove Python 1.5.2 so we have to make sure that the right one gets used.
<Arturas> this is for RH7.2, but i guess it will go for RH7.3 too :)
<robble> ta
<robble> well its bed time so i'll have to wait till morning for the cvs ( /me is on dialup)
<robble> thanks for the help guys
<Arturas> it was practically no help
<Arturas> have fun with it :)
<robble> ahh just finished
<robble> i got python2 and 2.2
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<Arturas> bye
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<_dneighbo> ^chewie i responded to your email
<^chewie> thanks ;-)
Action: ^chewie doesn't watch IRC too closely
<^chewie> in fact, it's lunch time ;-)
<^chewie> bbiab
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<_dneighbo> maybe we can discuss when you return
<StyXman> hi, peop
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<sledge_> hi there
<sledge_> someone here?
<pattieja> sledge_: yep
<sledge_> i just wanted to send my congrats to the developers of navigator. it looks really nice :-)
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<_dneighbo> so all you .ar folks staying up to see the SWE v ARG game tonight?
Nick change: _dneighbo -> derek_
Action: ^chewie is tired
<^chewie> ;-)
<^chewie> brb
Action: ^chewie needed some fuel
<^chewie> snickers to the rescue
<^chewie> derek_: how would you like to go about discussing the contact manager?
<^chewie> pwd
<^chewie> ls
<^chewie> doh!
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<derek_> you be here in an hour?
<derek_> actual i guess 20 minutes
<derek_> i am knee deep in somethign but would like to discuss
<derek_> psu: you watching the game today?
<derek_> er tomorrow i guess for you
<psu> nope
<psu> I will go into office normal time
<psu> & wait for everyone else to come in 
<derek_> rofl
<psu> flexitime latest in time is 9.30
<derek_> i was going to say 'enjoy the quiet'
<psu> match should end 9.15
<psu> see how many of them make it ;-)
<^chewie> yeah, I'll be around
Action: psu is pleased Ireland qualified today
<derek_> i will go out on a limb and suggest that against nigeria
<derek_> they should pretty much know at half time if they need to call in late or not :)
<^chewie> didn't US tie Korea yesterday?
Action: ^chewie hasn't been following too closely.
<psu> the opera ain't over 'till the fat lady sings
<psu> best finish to a match I ever heard
<psu> was when I parked up in hotel car park
<psu> after long drive
<psu> & decided to listen to last 5 mins of 
<psu> Euro Cup Final 
<psu> before going to check in
<psu> In that time, Man Utd scored twice to win 2-1
<^chewie> derek_: were you saying you wouldn't be able to discuss ContactMgr until tomorrow?
<derek_> about 20 minutes
<derek_> just have to finish something here first
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<^chewie> derek_: ah, OK ;-)
<^chewie> found the GNUe forms in the dclgw tree
<derek_> those are dated
<derek_> 10 more minutes and hopefully i will be done so i can explain :(
<derek_> as its really not intuitive at all
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Action: ^chewie nods
<StyXman> hi again, chip
<Chipaca> StyXman: *yawn* parciales take it out of me
<derek_> ^chewie you here?
<derek_> i just have to find a mtn dew and im ready
<derek_> StyXman / Chipaca they have mtn dew in cordoba?
<StyXman> mtn dew?
<StyXman> *what*'s that?
<Gedanken> mountain dew is nasty
<derek_> http://www.mountaindew.com/
<Chipaca> derek: no, they had it in buenos aires for a while, but it never took on
<StyXman> nono, we don't have such thing. the pritty is the best :)
<Chipaca> derek_: last time i was in miami i had some from a dispenser and it tasted like piss :(
<StyXman> and quilmes beer.
<^chewie> We have MelloYellow on the U of MN campus; I've gotten used to it.
<^chewie> I had my one bottle for the day, so it's back to water
<Chipaca> test
<^chewie> ping
<psu> "mountain dew - are you going to drink that, or have you?"
<Gedanken> psu: hehe
<StyXman> well, seeing the page I don't know if conclude that it's some cloth soap or a car engine's additive.
<Gedanken> I perfer a good ole pepsi ... or a coke if you have some good bourbon
<derek_> Gedanken actually drpepper and jim beam (bourbon) is a nice soothing drink
<^chewie> rum+coke=mmmmmmm
<StyXman> ^chewie: yeap.
<^chewie> kaluah+vodka == MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
<StyXman> or even, *cold* rum.
<^chewie> yeah
<^chewie> kaluah+vodka+bailey's == Oh, yeah <insert funky music>
<StyXman> I haven't frink one of those for years, but I still remenber the taste.
<Gedanken> derek: I don't really like jim beam ... maybe for cooking ... I perfer makers mark or gentleman jack
<derek_> Gedanken : drpepper + <insert favorite bourbon here> 
<derek_> ok ^chewie 
<^chewie> ok
<derek_> here is the scoop
<Gedanken> hehe, fair enough I will try it
<^chewie> scotch+nothing
Action: ^chewie readies the bucket
<Gedanken> ^chewie: laugavalin ...  ymmy
<derek_> at one time i was employed by a health and fitness club (gym/personal trainers/sauna/spa) outfit
<derek_> i started to do their membership management stuff with gnue
<^chewie> excellent job
<derek_> as some of the early proof of concept stuff 
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> i created the tracker item in samples/
<derek_> actually orginally it was REALLY simple and i was using to track assignments for GNUe to FSF
<derek_> i.e. name tracker and some of the fields there
<^chewie> k
<derek_> well then i started using DCL at work
<derek_> and really disliked how it handled contacts
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> i talked to mdean and he needed better contact support in dcl as well
<derek_> so we rewrote a contact spec (data dictionary)
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> which you will find as part of HEAD of DCL (note only HEAD has it)
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<derek_> and are in process of modifying DCL to use the new schema for contacts
<^chewie> under docs or something?
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> no its in scripts/ something
<derek_> it is THE schema
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> anyhow the FSF needed donor management and some tracking software
<derek_> they have decided to use DCL and as part of that im making some GNUe screens for contact management
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> that will have items to do donation management etc
<^chewie> sweet
<derek_> that is part of the fsf-contacts project on savannah
<derek_> the modified sql stuff and forms are in its cvs
<derek_> but that project is not public
<^chewie> is the DCL head at sf.net?
<derek_> its supposed to be, but loic hasnt fixed it yet :(
<derek_> yes dcl head at sf.net
<^chewie> the dclgw module?
<derek_> yes
<derek_> hey you know what just a second
<derek_> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/fsf/datadictionary.html
<derek_> i think thats pretty up to date
<^chewie> ok, I was going to say
<^chewie> it looks like they have NO contact mgmt separation in their tables in the DCL head
<derek_> it is separate in head
<derek_> that datadictionary was built from dcl cvs head
<^chewie> hmm
Action: ^chewie went to script/install/pgsql
<derek_> well it uses our magic new datatool
<derek_> where you define schema in xml
<derek_> and run an xslt to generate the create/insert scripts for each db
<derek_> and its creates the pretty html i gave you as the link
<^chewie> ah
<derek_> so its possible that hte pgsql file wasnt 'refreshed'
<derek_> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/dcl/dclgw/scripts/install/xml/dcl.xml?rev=1.6&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
<derek_> should be the xml version
<derek_> and you are indeed correct the createdb.sql script under scripts/install/pgsql/ is out of date
<derek_> if you have the cvs tree 
<derek_> you just need sablotron and pysablot
<^chewie> it looks better in teh xml
<derek_> then you can do i think 
<derek_> build.py dcl.xml pgsql.xsl createdb.sql
<derek_> or something similar and it will generate the file for you
<derek_> i really like the html output
<derek_> its nice and clean and easy to read :)
<derek_> i hope to get sometime today to work on this stuff
<derek_> especially if you are interested
<derek_> and get things organized
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> definitely
<^chewie> the psyablot site on sf.net is way out of date
<^chewie> looks like the project is dead there
<^chewie> and I don't see a debian package for it
<jcater> ^chewie: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/debian/
<derek_> its not ddead and we do have debs
<derek_> um what jcater said :)
<jcater> courtesy of nickr
<derek_> yes we need to get him to be maintainer of it so it gets in sid
<derek_> i think i had an action item there
<jcater> we need to get it renamed
<jcater> as proper name is python2.1-sablot
<derek_> ah the deb
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> well, if you need a sponsor for the package, let me know
Action: ^chewie is chewie@debian.org
<^chewie> ;-)
Action: derek_ was thinking its not ours to rename, but the package yes we need renamed
<derek_> if you are willing to maintain/sponsor it please see nickr 
<derek_> it needs to be done
<derek_> anyhow that was the short/long story of contact management
<derek_> jcater: btw: this only reinforces the fact we need a good tutorial
<derek_> i have some canned stuff i do on demos and such to show
<derek_> problem is its ugly to 'write' up
<derek_> i wish i had a way to screen capture all my screen/voice while i worked
<derek_> so i could do a demo
<derek_> and capture as digital and we could post on website 
<derek_> as 'online' gnue class
<derek_> do you know of freesoftware that does that?
<^chewie> not of the top of my head
<StyXman> I just want to say: what an *ugly* hack you have done in GFObjects.
<StyXman> fro the correct value of 'you'
<StyXman> s/fro/for/
<^chewie> in comparison between your schema for contact mgmt and the one I cooked up, there are a few differences
<^chewie> one that makes it more difficult to manage in my case
<^chewie> e.g. I used a table to tie two data tables together: person, address, and person_address
<^chewie> i.e. fully normalized
<^chewie> however, this may get to be too much of a headache
<^chewie> the idea is that there's less duplication of address data
<^chewie> in retrospect, it's not that important
<^chewie> so, ease of mgmt should probably win out for a less normalized schema
<jcater> we had a long discussion about that exact example
<derek_> its just not logical there
<jcater> a month or two ago
<derek_> you are 100% correct
<derek_> in that from a compsci view
<jcater> and there's a point at which normalization becomes too academic
<jcater> and unimplementable
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> having the table is correct
Action: jcater is all for data normalization
<derek_> however in practice
<jcater> but have normalized myself to project death before
<derek_> what you gain is used to little that the overhead it puts on UI design
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> not only kills the developer but ultimately confuses the user
<derek_> i am all for normalizing and discussing if we missed normalization
<derek_> but we have to be practical 
<derek_> if that makes sense
<^chewie> the other thing I did was have one table for all phone, url, email, etc named comm
<^chewie> i.e. person_comm table w/a lookup for comm_type
<derek_> at one point i had that
<^chewie> it reduces the tables, but complicates things slightly
<^chewie> so, I don't disagree w/having a phone table
<derek_> i think i spread back out for 
<derek_> a. uncomplicating
<^chewie> I just wanted to avoid it
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> b. helping with size hopefully helping speed
<^chewie> The one thing I disagree with on the DCL schema is the separate tables for accounts v.s. contact v.s. personel
<derek_> im not sure i remember fully but i think i had similar problems
Action: ^chewie looks at the raw XML again
<derek_> i think they need to be separate tables 
<derek_> but all shoudl use contact
<derek_> example you should have an accoutn table
<derek_> but it doesn have first_name
<derek_> is points to a contact
<derek_> you have a personnel table
<derek_> and it points to a contact
<derek_> i.e. you only enter people in a contact table
<^chewie> I would go a step further
<^chewie> enter people in a person table
Action: derek_ looks back at it looks like that is what dcl is doing
<^chewie> a contact is really someone associated w/a particular organization, company, or account
<derek_> you have an account table
<derek_> account_addr table
<^chewie> yeah, they cleaned up the account table, but there's an account_addr table, too
<derek_> account_contact table
<^chewie> ah
<^chewie> there it is
<derek_> best i can tell contact really = person
<derek_> as it only has first/last/middle/active
<^chewie> there must be a reason for their duplication
<^chewie> otherwise, I see no reason for an account_phone or account_addr table
<derek_> for what duplication
<derek_> well account phone has account_id
<derek_> now true you could jus thave one addr table
<derek_> then have a table
<derek_> account_addr
<derek_> that had
<derek_> addr_id
<derek_> account_id
<derek_> but again there isnt a ton to be gained by this
<derek_> one could say sure change the company address and all employees change 
<derek_> but in theory its more likely sally sue moves fromt he denver to the san francisco branch
<derek_> some yo yo goes in and changes her contact record
<derek_> and viola now the whole denver branch has moved to the san francisco branch
<derek_> now you coul make it so the ui doesn allow somethign like this
<derek_> and while the tables support hte many to many the ui doesn
<derek_> but then it goes back to the 
<derek_> a. complexity
<derek_> b. less data in specialized tables = better performance
<derek_> exmaple i have 30,000 contacts (with 30,000 addresses)
<derek_> i avhe
<derek_> 10 companies (with 10 addresses)
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<derek_> now i run acompany report
<derek_> im having to pick that 10 ut of 30,000 each query
<derek_> now in that sample probably wont be a big deal but if i have 1,000,000 contact and 20 companies
<derek_> etc
<derek_> but anyhow
<derek_> im definitely open to discussion
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> no arguments about your example
<derek_> its the classic
<derek_> 'finding the sweet spot'
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> i STRONGLY believe in normalization thats what RDBMS were designed for
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<derek_> but i believe there is such a thing as over normalization as well
<derek_> the problem is its 'gray area'
<dtm> derek_: so do you go to other databases and say "You're not normal."    or maybe medicate them   LOCK THEM UP/!??  where *Exactly* do you draw the line, mister?!
<dtm> chase em outta town with some torches and pitchforks?
<derek_> well mysql is not normal and it should be locked up
<^chewie> I have no problem w/an unnormalized DB as long as there is a reason for the duplication
<dtm> OIC
<derek_> after the crap codeworks found in postgres if it doesnt deserve to be locked up it should definitely be on probation
<^chewie> I'm giving DCL the benefit of the doubt when I said, "There must be a reason why they picked to create account_address" instead of using the existing "contact_addr" table as a reference.
<Gedanken> that is what views are for ...
<dtm> ^chewie: well if you dont like that then you can convert it to beverage format.  Remember, "log in and have a double".
<^chewie> i.e. account_addr table contains: contact_addr_id
<derek_> ^chewie we discussed it some but not as much as we did re: the phone/address we started with
<^chewie> dtm: ;-)
<dtm> ^chewie: that'll perk ya up and set ya straight
<derek_> Gedanken good point, i think there was some concern many db's dont support views
<derek_> let me restate that many free software dbs
<dtm> derek_: so gnue is definately going to have a booth at LWCE, eh?
<derek_> i think that might be fixed now though and maybe its worth looking at
<derek_> yes, booth #6
<dtm> derek_: elite
<derek_> PLEASE help me man it
<dtm> derek_: i can herp choo
<dtm> derek_: i hope i'm not ill by then.  i feel ok but dont know about contagiousness.
<dtm> :}
<dtm> derek_: do you buy your own plane ticket?
<dtm> or are you driving
<dtm> derek_: do you need lodging
<dtm> i'll lodge ya somewhere!  ;)
<derek_> you can certainly use it as a forum to discuss the teleconferncing services you offer
<derek_> do you know if phpGroupware will be there
<derek_> i keep trying to talk to seek3r but miss him :(
<derek_> he is in part of california we visit several times a year
<derek_> and was hoping we could hook up there sometime
<dtm> i dont know
<dtm> yeah he mentioned that
<derek_> i will be going through that part of town on my way to SF
<dtm> OIC
<dtm> you'll be driving then
<derek_> so if he isnt going to LWE i could see him then
<^chewie> so, if we go about packaging a Contact Management package/module for GNUe, how should we go about it?
Action: derek_ hopes he will be going to LWE
<dtm> derek_: maybe you could pick him up ;)
<derek_> my wife is coming with me, so lodging is iffy
<^chewie> would you like to adopt the build.py scripts DCL is using for their schema generators?
<dtm> derek_: iffy in what way
<derek_> dtm: i could probalby do that
<dtm> derek_: are you allergic to cats/dogs
<derek_> in that there are two of me
<derek_> not allergic
<derek_> ^chewie that is what is tough
<dtm> derek_: well then i have a place for ya
<derek_> and has been my ultimate worry
<dtm> derek_: i have a queen bed, 2 or so inflatable beds, and a couch.
<derek_> as we need a way to do like 'base' module with add-on's
<derek_> i.e. dcl would usge gnue-crm base module
<derek_> and the fsf contact system would use gnue-crm base model
<derek_> for now i have basically been doing duplicate work :(
<derek_> i have a fsf-contacts cvs tree
<derek_> and there is the dcl cvs tree
<derek_> pretty much the fsf-contacts one is identical to dcl
<derek_> only it just contains the schema
<derek_> and i put the forms in there
Action: ^chewie nods
<dtm> derek_: all i can say is that i vote for your CRM to in some way integrate with phpgw, and to have a migration tool away from phpgw's Addressbook and Infolog.
<derek_> we need to fix this though
<derek_> dtm: im all for that
<dtm> derek_: or else I'll....  oh you are?  :) 
<derek_> dtm: if you are serious i might take you up on the lodging part
<dtm> derek_: sure thing dewd
<derek_> the wife will is kind of squemish about such things
<derek_> but i will run it by her
<derek_> i owe her a few nights a luxury hotel though
<dtm> derek_: i'm ~60 mins from SF, by car or BART
<derek_> so it would probably only be for a day or two
Action: derek_ would prefer bart
<dtm> derek_: hehehe   luxury hotel  :-o
<dtm> i'll come stay in your hotel  ;)
<derek_> i am odd in that i like to experience the city when i travel
<dtm> yeah
<derek_> however the wife might not want to use bart :)
<dtm> well hey you're not gonna get much closer contact with the TRUE ESSENCE of the area than riding BART and a trolley!
<^chewie> hmm, one small thing on naming fields
<derek_> in NYC i had more fun riding the bus around town and walking the streets than anything else
<derek_> ^chewie shoot
<dtm> derek_: ok well my place is petite but clean... my mom lives here...  I have nothing which could be blatantly considered a weapon, no criminal record..
<^chewie> personally, I find it a little redundant to name a field after the tablename plus "ID", i.e. table == person, field == person_id
<^chewie> why not just person.id
<^chewie> ;-)
<^chewie> let the context of the table name itself give the field meaning
<derek_> i agree 100% on this one
<^chewie> k
<derek_> im not sure i like dcl_xxx as table names either
<derek_> some of this stuff will fall under 'standards' for gnue applications
<derek_> i just havent been too worried about it yet
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> You know, if normalization of a database isn't a 100% requirement, then using Python introspection to define and translate class objects into RDBMS representation becomes much easier
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<derek_> well that is another argument for another day 
<derek_> the old GEAS did somethign like this
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> there are pluses and minuses
<derek_> for now i need something ASAP
<derek_> i cant wait for an object/relational mapper to come around 
<Gedanken> wow, very hard concept
<Gedanken> btw, are you guys going to have perl bindings for your stuff?
<derek_> but i expect one to materialize (newer versions of appserver)
<derek_> and a migration tool will exist
<derek_> Gedanken yes an no
<derek_> i expect that the trigger engine will eventually support perl
<derek_> if someone writes the perl hookup
<Gedanken> hmmmm
<jcater> if anyone wants to tackle that
<jcater> look at zope's Perl Script support
<Gedanken> I might do it
<derek_> the gnue-common might someday support other languages
<jcater> as they have perl bindings for python
<derek_> if when its more mature it is deemed laudible to expend the efforts to port it to C or such that would allow that
<jcater> pyperl iirc is the name
<derek_> read: we are not against such a thing
<Gedanken> I still am looking over your guys work
<derek_> but are limited on resources so its not high priority as of yet
<derek_> i hate to steer people away (really, but im honest)
<derek_> if you really like perl
<derek_> there is a project very similar to gnue-forms
<derek_> but nearly as geared towards db's
<derek_> or crossplatform work
<derek_> called entity (http://www.entity.cx) i think
<derek_> and iirc its all in perl
<Gedanken> Scripting languages supported include Perl, Python, Tcl, Javascript and C (compiled and loaded at startup). 
<^chewie> ok, maybe the type-less nature of Python will throw a monkey wrench into my last statement ;-)
<Gedanken> Intersesting
<^chewie> I see why there's been talk about ODMG and why gcd was necessary
<^chewie> derek_: do you want to head up some sort of gnue-cmr, then?  How should we go about organizing this?
<^chewie> derek_: there are certainly other holes for me to fill so I don't duplicate your work
<dtm> derek_: heheh i just realized that if you're staying here and picking up Seek3r then that means seek3r would be staying here too  ;)
<derek_> um yes i would like to start the gnue crm package
<derek_> the problem is to do that we need to probably use the module proposal template yada yada yada
<derek_> and put out for review and such
<derek_> which is great and i want to do that, but i have time constraints for FSF
<derek_> so im torn
<derek_> you around tonight at all
<^chewie> maybe
<^chewie> I usually try to leave work behind, if you know what I mean
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<^chewie> I'm usually in the office btwn 09:00 and 17:30 CDT
<^chewie> +/- an hour
<derek_> what is CDT this time of year?
<^chewie> I do need to work on things such as an Event tracker, in the context of workshops, seminars, lunches, etc.
<derek_> -5 or -4
<^chewie> -5
<derek_> ok so 2 hour time diff
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> so you are around 7 to 15 my time
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> Are you in WA or CA?
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<dtm> ^chewie: he's in AZ   what area are you in
<^chewie> MN
<dtm> ^chewie: anywhere near Milwaukee?
Action: dtm is in San Ramon, Ca
<derek_> ive been coming in at 9
<^chewie> dtm: No, Milwaukee is in WI.
<derek_> which is 11 your time
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> so from 7 - 9 it might owrk
<^chewie> you're on at 7 in the morning?
<derek_> my time yes before work
<^chewie> wow
<^chewie> you're hardcore
<^chewie> I burned myself out of that habit already
<StyXman> no jcater or jamest? I need an answer about uidriver...
Action: ^chewie found the ModulesProposalTemplate folder
<Gedanken> entity is kinda cute
Action: ^chewie is reflecting on how he should change his Workshop Manager schema to be less of a normalization freakish nightmare ;-)
<^chewie> or not
<^chewie> grr
<derek_> hey dtm what is that product from IBM you had me look at before
<derek_> for weblicatoins
<derek_> or whatever
<dtm> derek_ sashxb.org
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<StyXman> hi chillywilly 
<ajmitch> StyXman: not saying hi to me? :)
<chillywilly> hi StyXman
<chillywilly> hi ajmitch
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<StyXman> ajmitch: may be.. I don't know you that much.. but... hi.
Action: ajmitch sobs
<StyXman> ajmitch: hey! I didn't saw you enter the channel! how am I suppossed to 'hi' you?!? :)
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<ajmitch> true....
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<StyXman> e.g., today I didn't read the channel at all...
<StyXman> ok, just a little...
Action: ajmitch does same :)
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Action: ^chewie hypothesizes about using reference counters in normalized DB's to help in decision making while avoiding costly adhoc "count" queries.
<^chewie> relational DB's get pretty hairy when trying to apply object concepts to them
<StyXman> jamest or jcater, you hear me?
Action: StyXman notes that jamest does the same ;)
<chillywilly> what are you talking about ^chewie?
<^chewie> I was musing on the complexity that RDBMS's introduce to an application when you have a normalized database
<chillywilly> okey dokey
<^chewie> we were discussing the idea that an address record shared between personal and the company benefit from being edited once and changed everywhere, but if the UI is designed under the presumption that data is atonomous of eachother, than someone could open up the editor and change the data incorrectly
<^chewie> so, two ways to combat that at the application layer
<chillywilly> btw, this is always a nice doc on relational design --> http://www.utexas.edu/cc/database/datamodeling/index.html
<^chewie> 1) even though the DB is normalized, you never let people share records between themselves or between companies
<^chewie> 2) implement a before-commit trigger that counts references to a given address record and confirm with the user that it will indeed change for a number of users
<^chewie> 3) de-normalize the database
<^chewie> cool, I'll look at it
<chillywilly> I see
<^chewie> if 1, then you bypass one of the benefits of a normailzed DB
<chillywilly> what about record locking?
<^chewie> how would you conditionalize that?
<^chewie> that has potential, actually
<chillywilly> you tell them they can't play with it because someone else is modifying it
<^chewie> different problem
<chillywilly> in the appserver I think we wil be locking the objects
<^chewie> however, you can lock it w/a special field saying "I'm referenced multiple times"
<chillywilly> how is it different?
<^chewie> and then apply the logic based on that "state" field
<^chewie> it's different because multiple aren't really editing it
<^chewie> you and I work for the same company, let's say
<chillywilly> ok
<^chewie> we each have a person_addr record that references address.id
<^chewie> that is also referernced in the org_addr table under address_id.
<^chewie> so, two reference tables, one detail record in address
<^chewie> The context to the address is delivered by the reliationship table
<^chewie> i.e. person_addr.addr_type
<^chewie> for me, it may be "mailing"
<^chewie> for you, it may be "billing"
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<^chewie> and for the company, it may be "personel"
<chillywilly> yea, I get it you have an adress that can be referenced from many different places
Action: ^chewie nods
<chillywilly> it si "shared"
Action: ^chewie nods
<chillywilly> to reduce redundant data
Action: ^chewie nods
<chillywilly> i.e., make it "normalized"
<^chewie> if it changes, it changes everywhere
<^chewie> obviously, not a light operation, responsibility-wise
<^chewie> there has to be a way, under that circumstance, to confirm with the user (editor) that the change is indeed what they want to do
<jcater> and the issue I presume you are talking about is: what happens if a person has as his work address the corporate headquarters
<jcater> and he moves to another branch
<jcater> well, if his address is "shared"
<jcater> and you went to change it
<^chewie> you change the "id"
<jcater> you'd also change the corporate one
<^chewie> you create a new record in person_addr for the new person->addr relationship
<^chewie> instead of changing it
<jcater> ^chewie: as long as your users understand when to change the id, or when to change an address
<jcater> and that is a tall order
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> exactly
Action: jcater has had this problem
<jcater> repeatedly :(
<chillywilly> I see, so you want to make this more friendly to clueless people ;)
<^chewie> the UI must be able to either hide the logic or reflect it accurately
<jcater> chillywilly: it's not as simple as that
<jcater> i.e., be careful with the term "clueless"
<jcater> as in this example, the screen will get very complex
<derek_> a few items and i breached them earlier
<derek_> is you must fix the ui which makes it complex
<derek_> which means people get confused
<derek_> which means they make mistakes
<derek_> now you can 'trap' it with lots of exceptions and messages (complex)
<derek_> then users freak and mess up
<derek_> so then you make it so that only certain users can do X
<derek_> and pretty soon you are in pain
<jcater> chillywilly: as in this example, the screen will get very complex
<chillywilly> I am joking, but what I was saying is you want to hide the nitty gritty but still let them know somehow so they are surprised that it happened
<jcater> damn
<^chewie> this is where you need to hide the logic in calls to object-layer methods
<jcater> that was an old message
<derek_> i.e. if you have a rule that says the user can change the address
<derek_> BUT
<derek_> if the address belongs to more than one person it throws a message (hey dummy this is a shared address by X people)
<derek_> one of two things happens
<derek_> a. the user doesnt care and just hits ok
<derek_> b. the user panics and clicks no and tells the customer, sorry i cant change your address
<derek_> c. they create the new address (when there is no need)
Action: ^chewie nods
<derek_> so you decide to game the system
<derek_> and instead of doing this if you change a 'shared' address you need access level of X
<jcater> what usually happens is they get in the habit of doing "c" because in their mind, that causes the least damage
<derek_> so now only a few 'clued' peopel can perform this function
<derek_> yada yada yada
<derek_> im going to say in principle it sounds like the greatest idea
<derek_> in practice i think you would have to work pretty hard to make it really solid
<derek_> that and shared addresses should be the EXCEPTION
<derek_> not the rule
Action: ^chewie nods
<jcater> I have one more opinion to throw out here
<derek_> i.e. there generally isnt a lot of address sharing
<jcater> extending what derek_ is saying
<derek_> i.e. there are lots of employees in a company
<derek_> but you point them to the company record to get the address
<jcater> imho, about the only time you'd use this sharing feature is with autopopulated sources
<derek_> in a sense
<^chewie> derek_: which, is to say that the direct relationship between person->company address isn't necessary
<chillywilly> i think it is more important to encapsulate the "employee" functionality then it is to reduce redundant in that case
<derek_> ^chewie right
<derek_> person->company->company_address
<chillywilly> cause it makes life difficult if you try to share
<^chewie> ah, there's a phrase I remember popping up years ago, "autopopulated sources"
Action: ^chewie grins
<derek_> im not convinced sharing is evil
<derek_> i think its rather good
<derek_> but its rather an implementation issue
<derek_> im all for expirementing with it
<derek_> but for now i need something quick
<derek_> robust but not over engineered
<^chewie> chillywilly: yes, the employee table referencing a person.id record as person_id foreign key is fine.  The data in person isn't going to change often, and when it does, you WANT everyone to know.
<chillywilly> btw, anyone looking for a good jabber server that has a AIM transport can use mine at frell.dyndns.org :)
<chillywilly> port 5223 is SSL
Action: chillywilly got sick of the server he was using being down every other day
Action: ajmitch only uses msn transport
<^chewie> roger that, cw
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<chillywilly> hi jan
<^chewie> hmm, I should get out of here
<siesel> hi chillywilly, hi all
<StyXman> hi siesel 
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<StyXman> which was the server again, chiliwily?
<StyXman> just for the records...
<chillywilly> frell.dyndns.org
<chillywilly> maybe I will donate some money to dyndns soon and get a real domain ;)
<chillywilly> does anyone catch the reference in that hostname?
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: StyXman doesn't
<chillywilly> you ever watch Farscape?
<esands> heh
Action: ajmitch should get a real domain
<StyXman> frascape? no, I don't even have tv.
<esands> Season 4's started as well.  Lucky there is dvds and donkey, otherwise we (in NZ) would be stuck back in season 1
<chillywilly> heheh, ok
<chillywilly> donkey?
Action: ajmitch would probably get dns hosted on fred :)
Action: chillywilly just saw the season premiere last satirday
<esands> haven't finished watch season three yet.
<chillywilly> it sucks that you don't get the scifi channel there
<esands> oh well
<StyXman> satirday is the day when satires are the only thing that tv stations emmit?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> lol
<StyXman> ok, gone. dinner with chipaca and then watch argentine-sweden
<chillywilly> cya
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<derek_> thats a long dinner
<derek_> arg vs swe is 7 hours away
<ajmitch> hehe
<derek_> maybe he meant dinner then go to bed then wake up and arg v swe
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<derek_> anyone here using windows?
<derek_> i tested a little prop program that seems interesting (they have a linux version but i dont seem to be able to get the player to work)
<derek_> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/mytest.rbx
<derek_> you can get the player at 
<derek_> http://www.xstreamsoftware.com/download.htm
Action: derek_ is curious
<derek_> <StyXman> frascape? no, I don't even have tv.
<derek_> <StyXman> ok, gone. dinner with chipaca and then watch argentine-sweden
<derek_> is he stopping to get a TV after dinner or flying to Korea?
<ajmitch> lol
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<derek_> hey dont jump in here its crowded
<ajmitch> doesn't matter, the walls are padded
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<ajmitch> hi jcater
<jcater> wassup?
<ajmitch> not much :)
<robble> mornings
<ajmitch> hi
<siesel> night
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<MicahY> hi all........
<MicahY> anyone wanna give me a quick tip in installing on RH 7.3?
<MicahY> [root@eclipse GNUe-Forms-0.3.0]# python2 setup.py install
<MicahY> [...]  mx DateTime.... No
<MicahY> rpm -q egenix-mx-base
<MicahY> egenix-mx-base-2.0.3-py2.2_1
<MicahY> anyone home?
Action: ajmitch is
<ajmitch> but i'm yet another debian user
<MicahY> hmm. that's forgiveable I guess.
<MicahY> I tried to install debian a couple months ago but couldn't get X to work...
<ajmitch> ah
<MicahY> have a G400.  Didn't try *REALLY* hard.  Red Hat is OK for me.
Action: ajmitch never had problems, probably due to older, supported hardware
<robble> ajmitch: are the woody debs of gnue reasonably up to date ?
<ajmitch> robble: i doubt it :)
<MicahY> anyway, I had GNUe working a year or so ago.  Am now wanting to hack on it again, and build an app.
<MicahY> buy why the heck doesn't python see the installed egenix stuff?
Action: ajmitch looks
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<ajmitch> there might be a separate datetime package?
<MicahY> hmmm....
<MicahY> no, looks like DateTime is included in this RPM I have installed.
<MicahY> is there an evn variable I can set to point Python to the right dir?
<ajmitch> from mx.DateTime import DateTime
<ajmitch> yep, should be, where is the DateTime pkg at the moment?
<MicahY> /usr/local/lib/python2.2/site-packages/mx/DateTime/DateTime.py
<MicahY> hmm... RPMs aren't supposed to go in /urs/local!!!!
<ajmitch> is python2 symlinked to python2.2?
<ajmitch> yeah, that looks broken
<MicahY> no symlink, but it's 2.2
<ajmitch> export PYTHONPATH=/usr/local/lib/python2.2:$PYTHONPATH
<ajmitch> that might get it to see stuff in /usr/local
<MicahY> should..... but it's not... :(
<ajmitch> or even try export PYTHONPATH=/usr/local/lib/python2.2:/usr/local/lib/python2.2/site-packages:$PYTHONPATH
<MicahY> yep that did it!
<MicahY> thanks...
<ajmitch> great
Action: ajmitch would rather place messy symlinks in /usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages
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<MicahY> I just made a script to set the environment....  needed to add the /usr/local/gnue/lib/python to it anyway.
<MicahY> now I'm not seeing the forms client executable installed anywhere....?
<ajmitch> gnue-forms?
Action: ajmitch really prefers to use setup-cvs.py
<ajmitch> since it installs symlinks in /usr/local/bin, sets up the python path, etc
<MicahY> ah there it is... I was looking in /usr/local/gnue....
<MicahY> ok, got the hello form running!
<ajmitch> great
<ajmitch> you should play with designer :)
<MicahY> yeah, last time I used GNUe that didn't exist.  Need to install it next....
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<MicahY> ok, am playing with designer.  good start but a bit quirky. :)
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<derek> quirky?
<derek> jcater: you here?
<MicahY> quirky... yeah...... right now it's not letting me edit anything in the prop editor
<derek> um i think this a wx bug
<derek> make the property editor big enough the scroll bar goes away
<derek> and then you should be able to edit
<MicahY> no scroll bar in the way.  I just keep clicking on an entry and banging on keys, and don't get an edit cursor
<MicahY> I did at one point, not sure what changed
<jcater> MicahY: do you have a hi-res screen?
<MicahY> ok, I maximized it and can edit!
<MicahY> 19"
<MicahY> 1024X768
<jcater> did you have the prop editor in lower right corner of screen?
<MicahY> uh..... right middle
<jcater> oh
Action: jcater had the weirdest issue one time that if it was in the lower-right corner, it wouldn't respond
<MicahY> ok, restored to size it just was and it lets me edit now!
<jcater> move it anywhere else, and it would work
<jcater> was the d@mnest thing
<derek> its a fun wx'ism isnt it ;)
<MicahY> ooh, clicked on another field now it's broke again
<MicahY> yeah OK, this is reproducible!
<MicahY> doesn't work -> maximize -> it works -> restore -> it works -> click on another widget -> doesn't work
<MicahY> hmm maybe not.... but close
<derek> im telling you
<derek> make the scroll disappear and your problems will go away
<derek> i.e. move the property inspector all the way to the left upper corner
<derek> make it wide enough so no scroll bar on bottom
<MicahY> horizontal or vertical scroll?
<MicahY> no horizontal scroll now and it's not working
<derek> then make it long enough scroll bar goes bye bye 
<derek> and it will work
<MicahY> no vertical and it works
<derek> i find if you put it in the upper left corner generally the problem doesnt occur nearly as much
<derek> but once the problem starts the only way to rectify it w/o restarting is to make it long enough vert scroll goes bye bye
<MicahY> yeah it does appear to relate to scrollbars
<MicahY> but what if the object has too many properties?
<MicahY> then you're screwed!
<derek> um virtual desktops :)
<MicahY> derek: any guesstimate on how many man-hours it would take to build something like Kardia on GNUe?
<derek> thas how i solved it
<derek> um if you already had the sql schema
<derek> based on what i saw
<derek> less than one night
<MicahY> crap
<MicahY> yeah, I have Centrallix and Kardia installed here as a test.  I think the Sybase schema is in there.
<MicahY> I could certainly do it in Postgres quickly enough, I think
<derek> we work with sybase :)
<MicahY> oh, and what's the URL for DCL?  I couldn't find it....
<MicahY> yeah, but I don't want to... :)
<MicahY> sybase sucks
<derek> dcl.sf.net
<derek> MicahY: i wont argue that, just stating we work with it :)
<MicahY> thanks
<MicahY> actually they're planning to write a PG driver for Centrallix eventually
<MicahY> but I looked at the Sybase driver code and it's MONSTER.  They said it will be non trivial
<MicahY> you really think DCL will be a drop in program for a typical helpdesk?
<MicahY> I'm not entirely sure what they want
<MicahY> but I'll run it by them
<MicahY> hmmm.... this SQL has quite a bit of sybase-isms in it
<MicahY> looks like stored procs, etc
<derek> i think its a stronger projects/work order system than a help desk
<derek> but i think it does helpdesk ok
<derek> and you have the code :)
<derek> btw: i also think they probably will end up using the other features a lot
<MicahY> so how does it link with GNUe?  Or does it?  I heard the projects merged.
<derek> they merged
<derek> currently we are gutting the contact management for next realease
<derek> that will be the base for a gnue crm 
<derek> that fsf will be using
<derek> already in cvs for working version there are gnue screens
<derek> i am adding more as well
<MicahY> what's a crm?
<MicahY> so it will basically what I see there, but with a GNUe Forms interface?
<derek> Customer Relationship Managment
<derek> yip
<derek> i have some reporting stuff at work with it too
<derek> i.e. using gnue reports
<derek> to generate things from dcl data integrated into the dcl interface
<MicahY> cool
<MicahY> only problem is this is a sticky social situation.
<MicahY> I think GNUe looks clearly better than Centrallix for what they're doing
<MicahY> but Greg and some Taylor U students have put a LOT of work into Centrallix
<jcater> well, we've put many manyears into gnue too :)
<MicahY> and it IS impressive -- just a little clunky in its use of JavaScript and Sybase
<derek> its sick number of hours put in gnue actually
<jcater> hey!
<MicahY> I'm sure it is!
<jcater> I didn't call in sick to work for all the hours I put into GNUe
<jcater> just most of them
<derek> i didnt mean more is expected
<MicahY> any idea when the new DCL+GNUe will be ready?
<derek> someday
Action: derek has learned not to 'predict'
<derek> jcater: you have any opinions on packaging and such
<derek> like this crm kind of stuff
<jcater> err
<derek> have you thought about it at all?
<jcater> do I need to read the back logs?
<jcater> as I haven't really been following along today
<jcater> or product packaging in general?
<derek> um
<derek> how best to describe....
<derek> i have discussed in length with neilt from time to time
<derek> but there are a few issues
<derek> first issue bundling
<derek> as packages have overlap
<derek> dcl for example needs contact info
<derek> as would say invoicing (vendors) etc etc etc
<derek> as would salesforce automation
<derek> but each needs 'varying' degrees
<derek> at one time it was discussed we would have base packages
<derek> much like common is to the tools
<derek> that had things that were widely common
<derek> then other packages like inventory and invoicing
<derek> might have overlap
<derek> but you could run invoicing without inventory or vice versa
<derek> i.e. you could mix and match gnue packages with other third party stuff
<derek> but do to do that schemas and such would have be done properly to break apart and such
<derek> im thinking im going to hit this what is giong on now
<derek> as DCL uses contacts but isnt a contact manager
<derek> fsf needs contact manager and wants to use dcl
<derek> so i was going to build contact stuff for dcl
<derek> then add what i needed outside of dcl for fsf
<derek> but if chewie needs something
<derek> then maybe its time to do it more 'officially'
<derek> im just not sure the best approach i have lots of ideas
<derek> but i think most of them will require we have something like apt/dpkg only specifically for gnue
<derek> to manage dependencies and such
<jcater> python-based, of course :)
<jcater> um
<derek> um yes
<jcater> I've only minimally thought about it
<jcater> and my mind things in relational, 2-tier fashion
<jcater> s/things/thinks
<derek> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/oldstuff/GNUePackaging.png
<derek> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/oldstuff/GNUePackagingExample.png
<derek> were some really old diagrams
<derek> jcater: to me the concept of packaging is no different
<derek> you have
<derek> rules(2tier=triggers,ntier=methods(triggerengine)
<derek> reports(same)
<derek> forms(same)
<derek> schemas(2tier=sqlschema,ntier=object defs)
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/ExtendingGNUe.txt
<jcater> was my very first stab at it
<jcater> actually, my very first proposal
<jcater> before the days of reports, and designer, and common :)
<jcater> but that only addresses updating schemas
<jcater> not dependencies
<jcater> conversions
<jcater> upgrades
<derek> yummy
<derek> My proposal is to keep the database definitions separate from the creation 
<derek> logic.  Table definitions should be kept in a standard (XML) marked-up file 
<derek> and this file should be loaded into a database-specific "preprocessor(?)"
<derek> that interprets the standard definition file into database-specific 
<derek> create (or alter) statements.
<derek> we do this right now
<derek> so we are on right track
<jcater> yeah
<derek> adding the other items in your example wouldnt be tough
<jcater> note that I haven't touched this in 15 months
<derek> i think just seeing this sparked the revelation i was needing
<derek> my fear was defining items over and over and over
<jcater> so this predates the DCL schema XML thingy
<derek> but with xml it solves the problem
<derek> as the table and fields can be done
<derek> and then meta data placed aroudn them to say wen to use what
<derek> obvioulsy its vastly more complex than this
<derek> but its a start
Action: derek is thinking out loud which could be dangerous
<derek> but say you have
<jcater> what is really cool
<jcater> is we could do this with GObjects
<derek> a person table defined in xml
<jcater> and actually tie triggers to these XML objects
<derek> and a company table
<derek> etc etc
<jcater> so you could have a "pre-install" trigger
<jcater> and a "pre-dependency-check" trigger
<derek> then you would have a package xml file
<jcater> :)
<derek> and all it does is point to the master table xml file
<derek> then define what tables to use or fields
<derek> kind of thing
<derek> hmmm someday soon we will need to look at this :)
<derek> MicahY: here is a screenshot of a gnue'ized dcl
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/service_request.png
<derek> going against production dcl data
--- Wed Jun 12 2002