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<psu> Kernel Cousins GNUe update
<psu> mail to Zack is still reporting problems
<psu> I've resent it
<psu> but 
<psu> will put #33 on www.gnuenterprise.org/psu tonite
<psu> if no further progress
<psu> (I'd do it now, but can't run the XML, so will have to do transform by hand)
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<siesel> good morning and hello all !
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<lupo_> is gnue cvs down?
<lupo_> okay, all right, it just took a moment
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<ajmitch> hi jamest
<jamest> hi
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<StyXman> monin...
<derek> fajun / Kidz hello
Action: derek is away: toiling at the grind
<fajun> hello
<fajun> hello derek
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<nickr> unga wunga
<StyXman> unga batwanta andule
<StyXman> balele ante lole?
<nickr> Oginga Odinga
<StyXman> ah...
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<^chewie> 'lo
<StyXman> hi ^chewie 
<^chewie> how's life in gnueworld?
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<StyXman_reencarn> how do I register to a form's event?
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<psu> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020615_33.html
<psu> Only 5 days late ;-)
<dneighbo> maybe its pregnant?
<psu> well, I suppose there was a pregnant pause
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<nickr> hilarious
<nickr> dneighbo: you chose the wrong profession
<dneighbo> ?
<jcater> I agree
<jcater> you should be in fast food
Action: jcater ducks
<jcater> quack quack
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> jcater: i would eat the profits
<jcater> rofl
<nickr> lol
<nickr> dneighbo: naw, comedy is clearly your true calling
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<psu>  /topic Open Mike nite in #gnuenterprise - bring your own earplugs
<jcater> I have no desire to open up Mike
<psu> ok then, free s/w Mike?
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> wow imagine if a reverse dyslexic reads this
<dneighbo> free s/m mike
<dneighbo> would you expect less from a channel touting 9 out of the top 10 hits for 'goat luvin' on google?
<nickr> lol
<psu> and now 10 out of the top 11
<jcater> gah
Action: jcater thought you were joking
<jcater> but you're not
<nickr> hah
<chillywilly> ooooh, you sooo sexy I wanna feel your horns
<^chewie> cool, lots of work going on the geas side of things, huh?
<dneighbo> um i was kind of joking (i made the numbers up)
<nickr> the top hit IS gnue
Action: chillywilly is not surprised
<jamest> lol
<jamest> the funny thing is that the string <derek> is always close by on the google samples
<jcater> rofl
<jamest> and people thought I had the problem
<dneighbo> i wanna know what happened to bubba
<jamest> the numbers don't lie!
<jamest> :)
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<psu> figures don't lie, but liars figure ;-)
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<siesel> hi ariel, hi chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi jan
<chillywilly> how's it going dude?
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Action: chillywilly just recently learned that the company he worksd for that the senior corporate counsel stole $35 million and another Board member stole $20 million and the CEO resigned and is being investigated
<siesel> quite well, just that appserver makes me headakes
<chillywilly> why?
<chillywilly> what do you think about doing an ml markup of ODL?
<chillywilly> er, xml
<siesel> hmmm, I don't think thats necessary.
<chillywilly> so just use straight ODL?
<siesel> is it a standart ? 
<chillywilly> yea
<siesel> so why not use it :)
<chillywilly> Object Definition Language
<siesel> I think we should take the things we need to create our own XML format
<chillywilly> why our own format?
<ariel_> hi siesel
<chillywilly> well I think we should support ODL and ODLML
<siesel> because .... 
<siesel> ODLML?
<chillywilly> markup lang
<chillywilly> XML
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> because mr. mueller wants to have a non-xml format, IIRC
<chillywilly> also
<siesel> mr. r. mueller?
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> that be the guy
<chillywilly> ;)
<siesel> I just think that it is easier (for the first step) to have an own XML format, which is quite similar to the internal appserver structures
<chillywilly> what internak appserver structures?
<chillywilly> internal
<siesel> the (still has to come) class definitions
<chillywilly> HEH
<siesel> the (still has to come) method definitions
<chillywilly> how do you base your own format on something that does not exist?
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<siesel> thats the point which makes me get headakes ;)
<jcater> poor, poor naive chillywilly
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> I don't think so jcater
<chillywilly> siesel: you mean headaches
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: siesel hands a non-existent donut over to jcater
<chillywilly> are you mocking me?
<jcater> who?
<jcater> us?
<jcater> never!
<chillywilly> you guys really need to get a netter hobby
<chillywilly> better
<chillywilly> oh wait jcater has one -- donut consumption
<ariel_> i proposed to reinhard a document to serve as base for discussion on this matter
Action: chillywilly hacks on the sol called architecture document
<chillywilly> s/sol/so
<ariel_> it does a comparison of features to put in appserver in :
<ariel_> 1. "old" gfd
<ariel_> 2. xml
<chillywilly> gcd you mean?
<ariel_> 3. what actually is in the DB
<jcater> where is this document?
<chillywilly> we already have 3
<ariel_> 4. representation in DIA/UML
<chillywilly> and we had 1
<ariel_> i did just half and emaled to reinhard, waiting for his response if to go on
<chillywilly> jcater: er, gnue/appserver/doc/geasarch/....but all the crap is till in outline.txt
<chillywilly> s/till/still
<chillywilly> as I am lay
<chillywilly> lazy
<jcater> ariel's stuff?
Action: jcater isn't interested in chillywilly's stuff
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> why do I even bother?
<jcater> chillywilly: your stuff gets too complicated way to early 
<chillywilly> how is ti complicated?
<chillywilly> I don't get it...it defines some APIs, what's complicated about some apis?
<jcater> bleg
<jcater> nevermind
<nickr> omdg forever!
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<siesel> Daniel, did you look at _featuretest recently?
<chillywilly> yea, well just saw the commit messages
<ariel_> siesel: for the diagrams i'm 80%
<siesel> ariel_: cool.
<chillywilly> I don't have much time to poke back through things again as I am madly hacking away at some gnu common c++ stuff...I have to get something released soon or die trying
<dneighbo> sigh im never here for good converstations
<dneighbo> i think it should be mandatory our gcd is xml
<siesel> :)
<dneighbo> as from xml we can make it ANYTHING else easily
<chillywilly> XSLT is cool
<chillywilly> I was playign with it the other for a change
<chillywilly> other day
<ariel_> dneighbo:i pointed yet to reinhard that some kind of sinchronization 
<siesel> yes, the basic format for the new 'gcd's should be XML, the big negative point of odl and the old gcd format is that the method code has to be separatly defined
<ariel_> between the new (say xml) and the old gcd can be useful
<siesel> cw: am I right about odl?
<chillywilly> right about what?
<ariel_> since it is possible to write some kind of gcd2xml tool
<ariel_> and save all the neil work
<chillywilly> well I don't think his work will be lost just because we switched formats
<dneighbo> well i still go back to fact that remote methods(triggers) and normal db 
<dneighbo> wuold be HUGE
<dneighbo> to start with
<chillywilly> someone (me?) would be willing to convert it
<dneighbo> and if you look at current 'gcd' they are not method code
<dneighbo> but basically property code
<siesel> not quite right: there is ONE full coded method in there ;)
<chillywilly> so the idea is to include the method code in the object description?
<chillywilly> does this rule out supporting other languages in a decent way?
<siesel> I would prefer that
<jcater> I think the idea is to just get method code out there
<jcater> regardless of an object description :)
<dneighbo> currently i say object isnt part of the picture
<dneighbo> again i cant stress enough
<dneighbo> how useful REMOTE TRIGGER code would be
<dneighbo> not bound to any data structure
<dneighbo> read no object
<chillywilly> so basically pull triggers out of db (or forms in our case)
<dneighbo> yes 
<chillywilly> ok
<dneighbo> that was one of the MAIN requirements i had listed
<dneighbo> basically what that gives us is xplatform db triggers
<siesel> dneighbo: but this triggers, at which time would they be triggered?
<chillywilly> when th form fires them
<dneighbo> im not against object to relational mappers in any way shape or form, but i want best bang for buck
<chillywilly> I would think
<dneighbo> siesel forms fires them or they fire each other
<chillywilly> oh you want the appserver to work in a non OO way also?
<dneighbo> i.e. a form/report/navigator can initiate a trigger
<dneighbo> or a trigger can navigate a trigger
<ariel_> i think that an object method description most contain only the method signature and eventually a pointer to the code
<chillywilly> I agree that objects do add complexity
<ariel_> the code is elsewhere
<chillywilly> so I see what you mean mr. cater even if you like to poke fun at me
<dneighbo> im talking speed of implementation and bang for buck
<dneighbo> if we do remote triggers/ remote db
<dneighbo> we are n-tier as advertised
<dneighbo> and gain the benefits from there
<dneighbo> er that
<siesel> dneighbo: so you think about a table appserver.triggers which can be called by forms.
<dneighbo> i still think there is immense value to object/relational mapping and such
<chillywilly> that would be putting the triggers in the db
<chillywilly> a 2-tier deal
<chillywilly> imho
<dneighbo> siesel im not sure what table appserver.triggers means?
<dneighbo> triggers should not be bound to tables
<dneighbo> i havent thought too hard on implementation
<siesel> I mean all triggers are stored in a datastructure (i.e. in the database, i.e. in a table)
<chillywilly> i see what you mean though dneighbo, you want to pull the logic into a middle layer
<siesel> and if a form wants to call a trigger it calls it
<chillywilly> right?
<siesel> I just think, that if you want a trigger bound to a special event like table person-setField(name) we can directly handle that table as an object and make that setField a method 
<chillywilly> so basically appserver would need to know something about the forms definition right? assuming you keep the trigger declarations in the gfd
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<ariel_> sorry, very interesting but too late ;)
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<jcater> chillywilly: but you wouldn't have the triggers in the gfd at that point
<jcater> if I understand correctly
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> err, the triggers wouldn't be defined there
<chillywilly> so the form would use the exposed services of grpc?
<jcater> the form would access triggers via the common "appserver" driver
<jcater> which would use grpc
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> a gfd wouldn't use grpc
<chillywilly> I get it
<dneighbo> im thinking that in a form, report, navigator you could define 'modules' 
<^chewie> ugh
<^chewie> can't get triggers to do anything w/release 0.3
<siesel> jcater, dneighbo: to ask again: you mean, that the trigger in appserver should do the same as triggers in postgres f.e., right?
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<jcater> I have to run
<jcater> but I'm thinking, to a certain extent, yes
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<chillywilly> currently, for the other db drivers, the triggers are in the form?
<chillywilly> some day I will freakin
<chillywilly> convert an app to use forms
<chillywilly> I need 36 hour days
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<siesel> ok, i.e. using an XML db table/trigger definition like the one in the DCL tree, it should be possible to create A) postgres tables (with postgres triggers) B) appserver + triggers + tables in any kind of supported database
<siesel> cw: I have to write a 3 min speech in chinese tonight, that is quite depressing :(
<chillywilly> indeed
Action: chillywilly is not in school anymore than God :)
<chillywilly> thank
<chillywilly> not that it matters as a trained monkey can do my job
<chillywilly> er, are in school right now siesel?
<chillywilly> are yuo
<chillywilly> you
<chillywilly> typing sucks
<siesel> last (i hope so) year of university
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> then onto the wonderful task of finding a job ;P
Action: siesel 's keyboard doesn't support auto-repeat anymore. that sucks::((
<chillywilly> sell yourself to the corporate machine
Action: chillywilly is cog number 7699
<chillywilly> maybe I should just take after the CEO and steal millions then I will never have to work on something I don't want to work on ever again
<siesel> or become a working maschine by creating you own company ;)
<chillywilly> oh yea I saw you sig ;)
<chillywilly> how far along are you with that siesel?
<siesel> you should do it like the CEO of the german telekom, first increase his own income by some 100% percent while the company's stocks are down to 10% of original value and then 
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<siesel>  /stock/shares/
<chillywilly> aw crud, who let that in here
<siesel> wb jcater
<chillywilly> siesel: they are all corrupt at the top
<chillywilly> look at jcater ;)
Action: chillywilly ducks
Action: chillywilly 's official job title is "peon"
<siesel> say that you won't take the your share options because you don't want to hurt the company
<jcater> siesel: I don't think the goal is to translate our triggers into db-level triggers
<jcater> (although that would be a kick-ass thing)
<siesel> hehe
<jcater> kick-ass, but impractical to implement
<siesel> ok, so what do you think how the triggers should be.
<siesel> * WOW autorepeat woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorks again :)
<chillywilly> wtf ia autorepeat?
<chillywilly> s/ia/is
<siesel> keyboard autorepeat: hold a key longer than 10 secs and you get not just one but many keypresses 
<jcater> like thiiiiiiiiiiis
<jcater> woohoo!
<chillywilly> yay
<chillywilly> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh
Action: chillywilly is dense
<chillywilly> what do you expect from a "peon"
<siesel> quite usefull if you are german, and you type so slow that you have to delete you sentence every second time, because someone else was faster :)
<chillywilly> blackened?
<chillywilly> hmmm, is that client any good?
<siesel> better than ircII I think
<chillywilly> xchat is fucked up lately in that it has trouble redrawing the screen properly sometimes
<chillywilly> espeically when lusers use mIRC colors
<jcater> color me bad
<jcater> err, wrong channel
<chillywilly> you're only connected to one channel
<chillywilly> silly
<jcater> um
<jcater> that was a GNUe Reports code comment
<jcater> that I typed in the wrong window
<jcater> yeah, that's it
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> can't be as entertaining as some of andrewm's comments in the old geas
<siesel> jcater: how do you think, that trigger should work in appserver (if they shouldn't be db-level triggers), can you give an example?
<chillywilly> ;)
<siesel> you should look into the python adapter code of entity (www.entity.cx)
<dneighbo> siesel i meant trigger replace db trigger concept
<siesel> ... <Slow> py_enode_mapping_ass_subscript(PyEnodeObject *self, PyObject *key, ...
<dneighbo> not be db level triggers
<dneighbo> im thinking in the client you define 'trigger' spaces to import
<dneighbo> or include
<dneighbo> then you can call triggers in those spaces
<dneighbo> so say i have string manipulation methods i have in strings.py
<dneighbo> or such
<dneighbo> er string.xml
<dneighbo> lets be more practical
<dneighbo> i have bank account methods
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<dneighbo> so i ahve accounts.xml (gcd) whatever
<dneighbo> and i have a trigger
<dneighbo> isValid(AccountNumber)
<dneighbo> or such in it
<dneighbo> in forms or what not some import/include exists to name that i want to use accounts
<dneighbo> then i can call this trigger by accounts.isValid
<dneighbo> sigh i dont communicate this kind of stuff well over irc
<siesel> i.e. if you have access to the gfd, or the forms client source code you can switch off triggers and directly write to the db, right?
<dneighbo> ???
<dneighbo> i dont think triggers should be tied to db at all
<dneighbo> i should be able to have a gfd that doesnt access a database
<dneighbo> that can use remote triggers
<dneighbo> actually just nix my comments on the subject
<dneighbo> i think im confusing you guys more than im helping
<dneighbo> i know what i want, but havent thought through the implementation :)
<siesel> I meant, if you seperate data and triggers on appserver level then you control the data flow on forms level by remote triggers which are called on forms level. 
<siesel> i.e. if you manipulate forms, the data flow isn't controlled anymore. i.e. not good.
<siesel> but this is an other problem.
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<Chipaca> hi all
<siesel> if I understand you right you want to collect a heap of "methods" in a library which is stored remote, i.e. in the appserver
<dneighbo> personally i see data going remotely too
<siesel> btw. Heideger said that confusing helps understanding :)
<dneighbo> this was part of my problems with putting data functionality in blocks
<dneighbo> as my long term goal was that you would have 
<dneighbo> local datasources or remote datasources
<dneighbo> so in an n-tier application you would point your datasource to a remote datasource 
<jcater> as opposed to?
<nickr> a huge, ever growing brain at the center of the universe.
<siesel> ok, but if you have local and remote triggers, then in case of remote triggers you should distinguish between data bound triggers and gui bound triggers
<jcater> nickr: /me tries not to think of himself as the center of the universe
<jcater> wife thinks that's unhealthy
Action: siesel remebers reading something about the number of virtual calculation (on electron spin level)  done since the begin of univers
<nickr> teehee
<siesel> jcater: really, I feel quite well ;)
<nickr> http://www.angryflower.com/bobthe.gif
<nickr> jcater the robogalactic megabrain
<siesel> the databound ones should be invisible for the forms client, while the gui ones can be raised+executed localy or raised localy and executed remote
<chillywilly> heideger eh?
<chillywilly> the German existentialist?
<jcater> siesel: I'd tend to agree
<jcater> not sure if I'd call the latter "GUI" tho
<jcater> maybe "Remotely Executable" triggers and "Data-level" triggers
<jcater> but I agree with the distinction
<jcater> as the databound one wound be needed for data integrity
Action: jcater is away: store
Action: Chipaca waves
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<chillywilly> you win :)
<chillywilly> hi jcater
<chillywilly> how's it going?
<jcater> swell
<chillywilly> gee wally that's great to here
<jcater> gosh
<jcater> will you be my friend
<chillywilly> nah lumpy, I gotta get home
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> :`(
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<chillywilly> he's a maaaaaniiiaaac, maaaaaniaaaac on the flooooor....
Action: jcater thwaps chillywilly
<jcater> get a grip, man!
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<chillywilly> looks who's talkin' donut boy
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<chillywilly> multiple personaility syndrome donut boy
Action: chillywilly brushes the powedered sugar off of him
Action: jcater grabs another donut
<jcater> <muffled> I don't know what you're talking about
<siesel> btw. appserver supports triggers now.
<siesel> please try and test and comment
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> j00 da man
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Action: Maniac dances a little jig to chillywilly's maniac rendition
<Maniac> (much delayed)
<chillywilly> much indeed ;)
<chillywilly> better late then never ;)
Action: ajmitch slows his box down to a crawl by bouncing several pieces of mail to ajmitch
<chillywilly> ?
<ajmitch> filters them thru spamassassin
<chillywilly> you freakaziod
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> not running spamd?
<ajmitch> i am
<chillywilly> well shouldn't it perform better then?
<chillywilly> you just need the preemption patch ;)
<ajmitch> i doubt that it'd make much difference
<chillywilly> it does, imho
Action: ajmitch is leaving for a few days soon
<chillywilly> vacation?
Action: ajmitch listens to a Third Day & Caedmon's Call song :)
<ajmitch> visiting parents
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<chillywilly> I suppose one should pay them a visit now and then
<ajmitch> yeah, haven't been down home since february
<derek> ajmitch: i have that one
<derek> if you ever want .ogg of latest christian hits let me know :)
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<jbailey> Careful, my wife's in the other room.
<chillywilly> well...I suppose she can join in ;P
<jbailey> Hmm.  I'd ask her, but that might be a case of "shoot the messenger"
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<chillywilly> hi dres
<dres> lo chillywilly
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<nickr> goats!
Action: derek is back (gone 02:13:52)
<derek> frogs
<derek> where oh where is psu?
<derek> Match: England  : Brazil
<derek>   #57, Quarterfinals
<derek> <ttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/gen/o.gif>
<derek> Date:  21 June 2002, 15:30
<derek> <ttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/gen/o.gif>
<derek> Venue:  Shizuoka, Japan
<derek> <ttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/gen/o.gif>
<derek> Referee:  RAMOS RIZO Felipe
<derek> 1.5 hours away :)
--- Fri Jun 21 2002