[00:03] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<dneighbo> yo yo yo wassup MicahY
Action: dneighbo is away: bed
<jcater> hehe
Action: jcater misread that as
<jcater> dneighbo is away: bad
Action: jcater was afraid to ask
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<jcater> psu!
<psu> jcater!
<psu> just checking in on my way to work
<jcater> how's life in the old country?
<psu> not bad - we have shifted w/o the slightest tremor
<psu> as a nation
<psu> from World Cup soccer obssesion to 
<psu> Wimbledon tennis obsession
Action: psu believes that the BBC are supplying cable TV companies
<psu> with a seperate channel per court
<jcater> wow
<psu> under the "BBC Interactive" bannner
<psu> Actually, *truly* interactive tennis might be interesting
<psu> let viewers click on ball to add extra topspin etc
Action: psu obviously has a wicked mind
<jcater> rofl
<MicahY> huh? derek isn't really in bed is he????
<MicahY> it's not even 11!
<psu> remember AZ doesn;t have daylight saving
<psu> as in the MidWest it's considered a sign of communism
<psu> like floridated water ;-)
<MicahY> yeah he and I are on the same time now - PDT/MST
<dtm> psu: HAHA  wtf
<psu> or free s/w ;-))
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<Remosi> re KC 34, #16, I've seen one company do precisely as was described
<Remosi> except they wrote their own byte code interpreter
<Remosi> wrote all their code in python, and released only the byte code
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<StyXman> hi peop
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<chillywilly> wooo, fast ass connection here
<chillywilly> 4kb/sec
<StyXman> chillywilly: just 2 years ago, the net here had peaks of 200 bps.
<chillywilly> hell, yeah!
<chillywilly> dems were da days
<StyXman> fortunately, adsl got so cheap that the uni could buy a great bunch. now you can get... a peak of 2kbps
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<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> dude, yesterday I was getting 1.2Mbps on my cable connection at home
<chillywilly> peak rate
<StyXman> he, I can't get that in my local net.
<chillywilly> sheeeit dude you need to setuip that 100Mbps network
<StyXman> uh, we have 100Mbps, man. and technology is becomin more expensive each day.
<chillywilly> what's your point?
<chillywilly> spend, spend, spend
<StyXman> hey, my faculty has a budget of -25.000 usd for this year. spend what?
<chillywilly> I was joking
<chillywilly> that's pretty fucking good
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> -$25,000?
<chillywilly> what facility is this?
<StyXman> well, we used to have money, but then the gov lost his money, so now he can't send us money, so...
<chillywilly> I forget where you guys work
<StyXman> we don't know how is gonna be the future. imf may, tho.
<StyXman> :-/
<chillywilly> what is the name of your non-profit?
<StyXman> chillywilly: no, I mean my uni's facuilty. via libre will work as long as it can get money from other places, but that's another problem.
<StyXman> a big problem is when a statl uni can't get the money to pay it's personnel.
<chillywilly> I know you told me before, but my mind is like seiveoh
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> how old are you?
<StyXman> i'm 25. 
<StyXman> and I think I'll get 26 in spain
<chillywilly> your age is going to change when you are in spain?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> 25 in Argentina and 26 in soain?
<chillywilly> cool ;)
<chillywilly> er, spain
<StyXman> well, yes, I can take it with humor, but ... 
<StyXman> sorry, ain't a good day for me.
<chillywilly> no buts
<chillywilly> you must accept it or face the consequences
Action: chillywilly wields his trout
<StyXman> trout?
Action: chillywilly troutslaps StyXman 
<StyXman> ah, that thing.
Action: StyXman crouches and wishes
<StyXman> (prays)
<chillywilly> prays for another trout slapping>?
<StyXman> :))
<StyXman> uh, not, but you can hit me and call me marta for 50 bucks an hour :)
<chillywilly> who the hell is marta?
<StyXman> uh, its a joke. i'm bad translating jokes.
<StyXman> like, i'm a rpostitute or the like.
<chillywilly> it's nice to know you think so highly of yourself
<chillywilly> don't want to get a nig head
<chillywilly> s/nig/big
<StyXman> well, i'll starve someday. and I don't want to become a prostitute at 50. better start now :)
<chillywilly> what does StyXman  mean?
<StyXman> styx is a river in hell.
<chillywilly> really?
<chillywilly> hell has rivers?
<chillywilly> how are the rapids?
<StyXman> yes, has 5 afaik.
<chillywilly> you've been there?
<StyXman> well, gimme a sec.
<chillywilly> you've been to hell and back?
<StyXman> in hell? i don't even believe in it.
<chillywilly> so you can make a quick trip to hell?
<chillywilly> you're ajn atheist?
<chillywilly> sorry man I am lagged as hell ;)
<chillywilly> this connection blows
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<StyXman> well, god decidely does not exist.
<yma> StyXman: you have verified that?
<chillywilly> well, that's one viepoint but a lot of us here don't buy it
<StyXman> http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/styx_river.html
<yma> what do I need to know to work on GNUe?
<StyXman> well, I'm not selling it. and I hate those guys that come to my hose each 4 days to sell me god. the rest of god-bevlieving people is fine.
<StyXman> yma: python, and havre a lot of time.
<yma> I just finished my semester exams, and want to get into FS
<yma> python, I don't know, but I suppose C++ knowledge is a good starting point
<StyXman> I wish I could finish ythem now. I'll have to wait another month.
<StyXman> yma: it's an oo scripting lang. it's easy, and you don't have to fight with memmory allocation.
<yma> you can hack before exams, I have to wait till they are over
<yma> OK OK, I dig that much of Python, just haven't done any serious work with it
<chillywilly> I can't keep up
<yma> no way to compile .py files to something like a .so?
<chillywilly> yma ?
<StyXman> yma: no, why?
<StyXman> I mean, what for?
<chillywilly> python is an interpreted language
<yma> I am on slow dialup, so I was wondering if any GNUe snapshots are available? like pnet?
<yma> yes, chillywilly?
<chillywilly> you directly import the "module" (.py file)
<chillywilly> your dialup is not as slow as mine
<yma> chillywilly: yeah, I remember seeing that somewhere in sgmltools-lite code
<StyXman> yma: check gnue's website.
<chillywilly> yma read the pyhton tutorial
<StyXman> there waa a release a month ago.
<yma> chillywilly: I won't accept that as fact, this is the bottom
<chillywilly> python
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> oh
<StyXman> yma:  and I suggest diveintopython too
<chillywilly> what's you rate at?
<chillywilly> we are ysing a 25ft long cord ;P
<yma> diveintopython?
<chillywilly> sorry, 50ft
<chillywilly> yea, diveintopython is good
<chillywilly> a GFDL'd book
<StyXman> diveintopython.org
<StyXman> nice, short, to-the-point. and with a transversal approach that python's tutorial.
<yma> I read about GNUe's release, was wondering about CVS snapshots, if you say so, I could start from release code
<chillywilly> just pull cvs
<chillywilly> if you want to dig in
<yma> of course, I need to wrap python around my head first
<StyXman> yma: well, again, check gnue's hp for cvs directions.
<yma> StyXman: OK
<chillywilly> so StyXman  you want to be associated with the river of hate?
<StyXman> well, it's a good picture, smoetimes.
<chillywilly> hiw?
<chillywilly> do you love to hate?
<StyXman> actually, when I picked the name, I didn't konw which river was or what it represented.
<chillywilly> that's a great life philosophy
<StyXman> no, I just have hate to spill.
<chillywilly> are you a terrorist?
<chillywilly> ;P
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<StyXman> well, last monday I was thinking in making terrorist attacks to some places. but the lack of money put me down
<StyXman> hello, echelon.
<chillywilly> hehe
<StyXman> chillywilly: you better stop giving me ideas :)
<chillywilly> just remeber I didn't tell you to fly a jet plane into M$ head quarters
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> maybe crazymike should do something
<StyXman> well, I can't decide between redmond or imf hq.
<chillywilly> imf? internation mother fuckers?
<chillywilly> international
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<StyXman> internation monetary found.
<StyXman> or whatever the translation is.
<chillywilly> what dio they do?
<chillywilly> and why do you hate them>?
<StyXman> and yes, your description suits well.
<chillywilly> mr., hate river
<chillywilly> sorry, mr. hate river man
<StyXman> what do they do? they drive our country, making our corrupt political mas to do what they want, and what they want is our enslavery.
<chillywilly> sounds like the US gov't
<StyXman> like, putting some stupid militar guys 25 years ago and tell them to spend all the money we have. now we owe them a fucking big shitload ofd money.
<StyXman> well, you won't hear from me that us govt is not involved.
<chillywilly> just give them drugs it all works the same
<StyXman> and europe just nods
<chillywilly> yea, well the question is do we concentrate on hating things or do we take off the gloves and fight for freedom
<StyXman> but, I think the best thing we can do is to invade slowly their countries and spoil them to the roots.
<chillywilly> what?
<StyXman> I don't hate just for the fun of it. I hate because I can't do a shit about it.
<chillywilly> yea, that's what the PR and media propagandists want you to belive that you joe nothing can't do shit about it
<StyXman> and now I'll have to leave my country just to hope I can survive elsewhere.
<chillywilly> on the contrary you can
<chillywilly> why do you have to leave thew country?
<StyXman> not, what media says here is that the more sutpid (or not) predsident we had is gonna win the next elections, and that's the worst thing that will happen.
<StyXman> why? if vilaibre cannot get money, i'll be oput of bussiness.
<StyXman> and there's no job around.
<StyXman> our country is falling down in flames.
<chillywilly> doesn't prostituing bring in enough money?
<chillywilly> ;)
<StyXman> well, the recession is so big, and the competition so hard, ...
<StyXman> I'll get spain swimming.
<StyXman> s/get/go to/
<chillywilly> well I would day never give up ;?P
<StyXman> I could be ranting this way all the day and even the night, but now I'll leave it there.
<chillywilly> so this is your whole modivatgion for vialibre to make money?
<StyXman> modiwhat?!?
<chillywilly> I think we have enough people who only care about making money
<StyXman> was it motivation?
<chillywilly> motivationm
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> m-o-t-i-v-a-t-i-o-n
<StyXman> well, I care about what's going on here, but I know that this won't work. other countries were driving ours from the start (about 200 years ago)
<chillywilly> where's your web site for vialibre?
<StyXman> www.vialibre.org.ar
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<chillywilly> cheeeeeewiiiieeee
<^chewie> wassup
<chillywilly> ou do the wookie cry?
<^chewie> yep
<^chewie> that's how I got my name
<chillywilly> er, can you
<chillywilly> kewl
<chillywilly> do you have an mp3 o fit?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> or wav file
<^chewie> heh, I should probably do that, shouldn't I?
<chillywilly> you should record it
<chillywilly> yea ;)
<^chewie> heh
<chillywilly> have you seent h commercial where the guys does the wookie cry?
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<StyXman> this copy takes a lot of time!
<^chewie> chillywilly: yeah, I don't remember the name of the movie, though.
<chillywilly> I don't think it was for a movie
Action: ^chewie doesn't watch much television.
<chillywilly> neither do I
<chillywilly> but I do watch the scifi channel
<chillywilly> ;)
<StyXman> he, I don't have tv set. I don't like it.
<^chewie> man, our Representatives are pretty friggin stupid
<^chewie> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43256-2002Jun25.html
<chillywilly> well, yea
<chillywilly> but which stupidity are you referring to?
<chillywilly> ok
<StyXman> finished!
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<StyXman> ah, yes, I read it. 
<StyXman> ok, guys, bbl
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<^chewie> doh, Mozilla froze
<chillywilly> some daY THE SITE WIL LOAD...SOME DAY...
<chillywilly> damn capslock
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<btami> hi all
<chillywilly> fuck nba jam
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<StyXman> and I'm back from hell...
<chillywilly> you wish
<StyXman> he
<chillywilly> oh wait you did say you live in Argentina right ;)
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Action: dneighbo thanks jcater immensely
Action: dneighbo wonders if we can convice mdean tabs are evil :)
<nickr> tabs are good!
<drochaid> tabs are spawn of satan!!!
<drochaid> or is that santa?
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<dneighbo> tab windows = good
<dneighbo> tab indented code spawn of santa
<chillywilly> I agree, tabs are satans spawn
<nickr> oh
<nickr> tabs are good for delimination though!
<chillywilly> yeah. thats about alol they are good for
<chillywilly> s/alol/all
<nickr> well thats what they are *for*
<nickr> its cool how irssi
<nickr> highlights ascii conventions
<nickr> like its makes *foo* bold
<chillywilly> whatever...
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<Chipaca> who's yo mama?
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<dneighbo> i think im a freak
<dneighbo> if your local LUG asked
<dneighbo> woudl you give them your name/address/phone number for a member database
<dneighbo> and items you would be willing to help with like
<dneighbo> lobbying, installfests, supporting postgres etc
<dneighbo> or would you say F You my privacy is more important you cant have my info?
<jcater>  I'd say, F you
<dneighbo> really
<dneighbo> what if all items were optional
<dneighbo> i.e. you could leave just name and email
<dneighbo> or name phone 
<dneighbo> etc etc
Action: dneighbo is really amazed
<dneighbo> i guess i figure identity is not obscure anyhow so to withhold from causes that are good seems silly
Action: dneighbo thinks people are over paranoid
<dneighbo> they are afraid to give out their phone number to friends
<dneighbo> but could care less that the government steals from them
<dneighbo> most curious
Action: jcater is paranoid about it all
<jcater> gov't, friends, etc
<jcater> esp. strange ppl you meet in irc
Action: jcater shivers
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<jcater> I freaked the lady out in Barnes & Noble
<jcater> trying to sell me their 10% off card
<Chipaca> jcater: she ran out screaming?
<dyfet> james always had that problem with the ladies....they go running away screaming :)
<dneighbo> well jcater, i think coming at ladies with a GNUe : Total World Domination tee shirt
<jcater> I said "and just what are you gonna do with the data you keep on me"
<dneighbo> and two krispy kremes hangout your mouth
<dneighbo> is enough to scare most ladies no?
<jcater> they lady's like, "We don't track your purchases"
<jcater> "Well, why else would you want me to use the card? Huh????"
<Chipaca> jcater: did she or did she not run out of the store screaming?
<jcater> "Oh.  I guess you're right... Well, is that really a problem?!?!?"
<Chipaca> jcater: answer the question
<jcater> "Yes it is!"
<dneighbo> jcater: but why do you care if they track your purchases?
<Chipaca> your honour, we have a hostile witness
<dneighbo> it only helps them better target needs
<jcater> Chipaca: the settlement agreement forbids me discussing details like that
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> its 'selling' my information i have a problem with (my data, not my demographics or spending habits)
<jcater> dneighbo: very specific reasons
<nickr> dneighbo: I'd give them an assumed name
<Chipaca> rats
<jcater> when local politicians get their video tape rentals "questioned" because a journalist got access to the person's Blockbuster data
<Chipaca> nickr: like "Benjamin Laden"?
Action: jcater would really worry if ppl saw what he read
<dneighbo> i guess its all matter of where you draw the line
<jcater> and took it out of context
<dneighbo> jcater: yes i agree that is bad
Action: jcater foresees a local office for himself at some point
<dneighbo> but there its not collection of information thats the problem imho
<dneighbo> its usage
<jcater> dneighbo: you are right
<jcater> it;s not the collection I distrust
<dneighbo> i.e. blockbuster shoudl not be GIVING your information to the press :)
<jcater> it's the people I distrust
<dneighbo> if they want to say
<dneighbo> give video rentals by
<jcater> dneighbo: well, video rentals are EXPLICITLY covered by a law now
<jcater> (because of incidents like these)
<dneighbo> males in memphis age 20  to 27 that like donuts
<jcater> also
<jcater> I get tired of being stereotyped by my "demographics"
<jcater> it happens more than you realize
<dneighbo> im cool with that
Action: jcater consciously tracks everything he recieves
<Chipaca> jcater: consciously, or conscienticiously?
<dneighbo> i dont mind 'profiling' if its not used 'against'
<jamest> <flash forward to the future>A journalist reading over jcater's B&N sales list......
<dneighbo> i.e. im against profiling that stops muslims at airports because they are muslims
<jamest> How to best handle your python
<dneighbo> im not against profiling that during world cup matches on tv
<dneighbo> all i see are nike soccer commercials and gatorade commercials
<jamest> Mount techniques of the experts
<dneighbo> How to fsck like a pro
<Chipaca> jamest: if your journalists are like our journalists, most wouldn't tell the difference between BSD and BSM anyway
<dneighbo> jcater: do you pay only in cash?
Action: dneighbo thinks credit card companies are the data kings
<jamest> Life as a AI, how to cope.
<jamest> Hot and kinky sex positions for future politicians
<dneighbo> they have your finanical records, personal records and spending transactions for ALL purchases regardless of where :)
<jamest> Journalist exclaims...."Python! Isn't that one of those anti-american free software thingys!  Congressman Cater is going down, the commie bastard!"
<jamest> Of course the last book didn't bother him as it was Clinton's best seller
<jamest> Amazing the money he made as an author after his term was up
<dneighbo> jamest: most presidents are extremely financially successful post presidency
<dneighbo> via book deals, speaking tours and the likes
<dneighbo> not to mention the now legal kick backs for who they helped while in office ;)
<jamest> i know, it was a (lame) joke 
<jamest> clinton makes more for 1 speach that I make in a year
<dneighbo> thats the problem, its no joke :(
<dneighbo> its real
<jamest> i think I saw somewhere it's like 125K a talk or something 
Action: jamest hopes he remembers wrong but doubts it
<dneighbo> you guys see spy game with brad pitt and robert redford
<dneighbo> was pretty good little flick
<dneighbo> i loved redford's quote to the director of CIA
<dneighbo> 'remember when we could tell who were the good guys and who were the bad guys'
<dneighbo> at this point i think govt agencies are so corrupt
<dneighbo> its not even funny
<dneighbo> politics of course have always been politics and corruption exists
<dneighbo> but now it seems to filter down to the lowest branches
<dneighbo> its like a lie, where soon you have to lie about lies to cover the lies until you arent sure what is truth and what is lie :)
<dneighbo> well based on this discussion, i suppose i will be ousted from the local LUG :)
<dneighbo> as i basically flamed them as paranoid freaks :)
<jcater> dneighbo: cash
<dneighbo> was that an offer ?
<dneighbo> as i would gladly take some :)
<nickr> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/online-tools/rim/rim.php
<nickr> for the paranoids
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<dneighbo> nickr pretty sweet
<dneighbo> Taco Bell Manager with Seduction as a hobby
<dneighbo> thats got to be fun
<dneighbo> i mean as rico sauve as taco bell managers can be and all
<jamest> Occupation: Phone Sex Operator
<jamest> Hobbies: Tai Bo
<jcater> Interest: Part-time Python tamer
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> occupation: mailman
<dneighbo> hobbies: satanism
<jcater> Occupation: Business Manager
<jcater> Hobbies: Computers, Drawing
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> that's no fun
<dneighbo> almsost as good as
<dneighbo> occupation: begger
<dneighbo> hobbies: seduction
<dneighbo> i guess bag ladies are easy prey?
<jcater> Occupation: Tree Surgeon
<jcater> Hobbies: Salsa
<jcater> "Your cha-cha-cha tree needs schwing! surgery!"
<dneighbo> better than a 'swinging' tree surgeon :)
<jcater> hehe... seductive baker
<jcater> "Yeah, I do my magic with chocolate brownies.... wanna taste?!?!?"
<dneighbo> hmmm gnome2.0 is out
<dneighbo> wonder when it will be in sid as official gnome
<jcater> dneighbo: probably about the time KDE 3.0 will be
<jcater> um, by christmas, maybe?!?!?
<dneighbo> though im pretty much a fluxbox junky now anyhow
<jamest> christmas? someone light a fire under someone's arse?
<dneighbo> jamest: im still waiting for X 4.2.x in sid
<dneighbo> :(
<jcater> so are we
<jcater> because dude won't add KDE 3 until X 4.2 is there
<dneighbo> my life is hell because i have to suffer with 4.1 and my card is upported like shit
<jamest> buy a new card 
<jamest> yeah , thats it
<jamest> :)
Action: dneighbo digs around for some of those smelly trouts
<jamest> what?
<dneighbo> jamest: if i had cash right now (extra that is) i would have done that
<dneighbo> as its an onboard video thats not that great anyhow
<jamest> a good geforce4 only costs about $400 bucks now I think
<dneighbo> cant play any g/l games like tuxracer and such :(
<dneighbo> which REALLY does hurt 
<dneighbo> because wife's only real linux complaint is no games for the kids
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> frozen bubble works
<jamest> lemme guess Intel 81[0|5] chipset
<dneighbo> and now they are addicted so they stopped asking to play other games :)
<dneighbo> trident cyberblade/i1
<dneighbo> or something like that
<dneighbo> i emailed the X studs and debian studs response was 
<dneighbo> upgrade to 4.2 and call us in the morning
<jcater> dneighbo: see, that's not in the spirit of Free software
<jcater> you should fix it and send in a patch
<jcater> you do write kernel drivers, right?
<dneighbo> im half considering (but i just cant) installing mandrake on that machine
<dneighbo> jcater: no that was the OTHER response when i asked Debian list
<dneighbo> just compile X
<dneighbo> sure no problem
<jamest> X isn't that bad
<dneighbo> i might as well switch to gentoo  or slack or such
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> it's Y you have to watch out for
<dneighbo> im not against compiling X
<jamest> the major problem would be it's break all your .deb dependencies :)
<dneighbo> im against compiling things period
<dneighbo> i.e. if i wanted a tar ball distro i would use one :)
<dneighbo> im a package nazi 
<dneighbo> i noticed you and jcater are a bit too
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<dneighbo> like need to ahve .deb pysablot
<dneighbo> now there is a package that depends on little would be a no brainer to install from source
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> the idea of a packaging system is to well use packages :) so was glad to see nick make a deb for it :)
<dneighbo> anyhow, jcater when did you say you would have 4.2 pacakged ? ;)
<dneighbo> with all those patches and drivers :)
<jcater> dneighbo: right after GNUe gets packaged
Action: jcater ducks
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> jcater you use sed/awk to get rid of tabs or someother method
Action: dneighbo thinks im going to put my youth group to work testing gnue 
<dneighbo> will start a new teen fad
<dneighbo> Q and A parties
<dneighbo> instead of LAN parties
<dneighbo> biff: "dude did you go to that killer Q&A party last week"
<dneighbo> bob: "yeah, we regression tested all of 0.4.0 and did a full unit test on common, it kicked ass"
<jcater> dneighbo: expand 
<dneighbo> biff: "i hear next week there will be Q & A party where they are gonna load test 4 different db's against forms"
<dneighbo> bob: "im there"
<jcater> now, if I could just find a "contract" command that would shrink the number of leading spaces :)
Action: dneighbo just needs to get an emacs book
<dneighbo> though on this box emacs is painful, ive been using gedit :(
<dneighbo> p 233 64mb and emacs that opens in x is slow to open
<dneighbo> how on earth they used emacs in 85 is beyond me (then again back then it was probably just your o/s)
<dneighbo> in which case it loads fast for an os
Action: dneighbo is determined to get bluefish working well at home for php work
<dneighbo> and html
Action: dneighbo needs to find good python editor (though emacs isnt bad) i would like something with autocomplete
<dneighbo> and built in docs and such
<jcater> autocomplete?
<dneighbo> myMethod.
Action: jcater bleches
<dneighbo> would then give you a drop down list of all methods properties for myMethod
<dneighbo> then
<dneighbo> myMethod.Method(
<dneighbo> woudl give list of params and data types
<jamest> echo "    hi jcater    !" | sed -e "s/\ \ /\ /g"
<jamest> replace 2 space w/ 1
<jamest> not sure if that's what you are after or not
<jcater> jamest: yes, I realize that :)
<dneighbo> myMethod.Method(param,
Action: jcater detests autocomplete editors
<dneighbo> would then pop up data type and name of param two and so forth
<jcater> more of a slowdown than a help
<dneighbo> is what i mean by autocomplete
<dneighbo> a good one certainly is not
<dneighbo> a good one lets you turn autocomplete off
<dneighbo> or put a time on it
<dneighbo> generally i set it to liek 5 seconds
<dneighbo> as if i do myMethod.
<dneighbo> and wait five seconds it probably cause i dotn remember what im lookign for
<dneighbo> or in Delphi i turn it off
<dneighbo> then hit ctrl-space
<dneighbo> if i want a list
<dneighbo> vbs autocomplete i ABHOR
<dneighbo> as i cant set optiosn for it
<dneighbo> and it actually tries to 'complete' crap
<jcater> gasp!!!!!
<jcater> he said the D work
<jcater> word
<dneighbo> i.e. it changes things on my butt
Action: dneighbo doesnt know why they dont rename pascal to D
<dneighbo> then they could have
<dneighbo> C builder (c/c++)
<dneighbo> D builder (pascal)
<dneighbo> J builder (java)
<dneighbo> as C and J builders already exist
<jcater> they need a "G" language too
<jcater> so we can discuss the proper usage of "G" strings
<dneighbo> fwiw: since getting rid of windows at home, converting everything to python at work, and using gnue for most things, i dont think i have touched Delphi in at least 6 months if not longer
Action: jamest pictures derek at the local meeting of the DDD - Delphi Dependent Developers meeting
<jamest> "HI, my names derek"
<jamest> "hi derek"
<jamest> "I haven't used Delphi in 6 months"
<jamest> <pats on the pack><words of encouragement>
<jcater> fwiw: since getting rid of windows at home, converting everything to python at work, and using gnue for most things, I have a hard time gettin jiggy with the women
<jamest> btw - I fixed my windows install at home
Action: jamest is almost awstruck at the number of times it crashes during short sessions
<jamest> i'm messing around a bit with a game editor and damn
<jcater> what!?!?!?
<jamest> crash editor, lock up windows
[14:30] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> no winex ?
<jamest> crash editor, lock up windows
[14:31] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<jamest> over and over
<jamest> I wonder how people get anything done 
<jcater> jamest: in my experience w/ppl at work, freecell and solitaire run fairly stable in win32'
<jcater> so it's typically not an issue
<dneighbo> jamest: i reinstalled windows for a friend (at their request)
<dneighbo> and no kidding i had to reboot at least 40 times
<dneighbo> just to get windows installed and configured on the network
<jamest> i know the feeling
<dneighbo> the friend was watching and like man, this has to reboot a lot
<jamest> mine crashed on setup
<dneighbo> the two funniest parts of that experience for me were
<jamest> not to mention that trying to fix the partition damage via a window tool wiped my whole damn machine
<jamest> i lost all my linux partitions
<dneighbo> 1. Its proof windows is hard to install (as this friend tried to reinstall windows himself and couldnt get modem or video to work right)
<dneighbo> 2. I had installed Debian for this friend and he complained it took a whole afternoon and windows was much faster to install.  After the 40 reboots and 3 hours.  He said, still better than a full day.
<dneighbo> then he said ok can you copy that cd for me to my machine why im here 
<dneighbo> i had to regretfully inform him we would have to download a tool to do this
<nickr> hoo ha
<dneighbo> and anotehr tool to play it
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<dneighbo> and said when debian took a half a day you got about 2000+ pieces of software not just an operating system
<dneighbo> now a few days later i get the, this sucks i dont have any cool software where do i get x, y, z (things he had been doing on debian)
<nickr> hehe
<dneighbo> sad part main reason he wanted to change is i couldnt get dial up ISP workign for him (didnt have time)
<dneighbo> that and his other friends kept giving him pirated windows software (games) and he couldnt play them
<dneighbo> if i could have got dial up working i would have tried winex or something for him
<dneighbo> anyhow
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Nick change: psu_ -> psu
<jamest> next time install wvdial
<jamest> it's like windows dialer and a no brainer to setup
<dneighbo> i didnt have dialing out and loging it
<dneighbo> that was a cinch
<dneighbo> damn routing problems
<dneighbo> something installed tap?
<dneighbo> and it was interfering with ppp
<dneighbo> so i could connect to the ISP no problem
<dneighbo> just couldnt route out to the internet
<dneighbo> the day i was trouble shooting you werent around
<dneighbo> and you and chilly are only two that have modem/ppp expierence with linux really
<dneighbo> =====
<dneighbo> GNOME 2.0 boasts some significant advances for developers, including an
<dneighbo> enhanced GTK Toolkit, new libraries and widgets, as well as the
<dneighbo> unparalleled advantages of GNOME's component-based architecture.
<dneighbo> GNOME's libraries are available for use in any application, without
<dneighbo> fees, under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License
<dneighbo> =====
<dneighbo> how great is that
<dneighbo> more widgets instead of making widgets they have stable?
<psu> This is the sort of reason 
<psu> that you and jcater 
<psu> come across as anti-new widget
<psu> to the papo guys
<jamest> yeah, what is it with you 2 anyway?
Action: jamest runs
<psu> GNUe - the anti-glade?
<psu> The golden rule for new widgets is
<psu> "how would it work in curses?"
<dneighbo> no golden rule to me is 'why'
<dneighbo> is it more productive?
<jamest> psu - you really can't blame derek about that - I'm the original anti widget arse
<jamest> as GUI != better
<dneighbo> i think part of the problem (and im guilty here too) is that m$ has traind develoers
<dneighbo> that spin boxes and fooboxes and such
<dneighbo> are great and wonderful
<jamest> and I _HATE_<stab, kick, maul> over complex widget sets
<dneighbo> but generally they end up being harder for develoeprs to maintain
<dneighbo> easier for users to use
<dneighbo> but less productive
<dneighbo> example gui as a whole can be considered this way
<dneighbo> gui harder for developer
<psu> and with david sugar mentioning a bayonne forms driver on the mail list 
<dneighbo> easier to learn
<dneighbo> harder to use
<dneighbo> i think its a point of finding a middle ground
<psu> I guess even curses-supportable widgets may be 
<dneighbo> where a developer need not know of 500 widgets
<psu> not the bottom line
<dneighbo> (and the user too for that matter)
<jamest> I wanted widgets based upon function not style
<dneighbo> but they arent crippled
<jamest> that is why you see <entry> and not <textentry>
<dneighbo> i think many things papo folks are asking for are very valid
<dneighbo> list boxes for example i thik are necessare
<jcater> psu: yes, definitely!
<dneighbo> y
<psu> jamest: question should be "what does it do?" not "what does it look like?"
<jcater> we've wanted a Bayonne form driver for a while
<dneighbo> as are multi table datasources
<jcater> we were discussing that last summer
<dneighbo> as are scrollboxes
<dneighbo> psu: yes i think thats a good way of putting it :)
<jcater> that's why we fight so hard against things like scrollboxes
<dneighbo> s/scrollboxes/scrollbars on my above line
<dneighbo> i was then going to argue in case of scrollbars
<dneighbo> its not that we are anti scrollbar its a matter of implementation
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<dneighbo> just like currently we support 'grids'
<dneighbo> even though its not a 'traditional' grid
<dneighbo> for sometime i had issue with this
<dneighbo> but once i dropped gui prejudice and focused on functionality
<dneighbo> the grid works
<psu> dneighbo: it really goes back to what you've been saying ad passim for as long as I've been doing KC
<psu> "we need apps"
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> well im not saying we dont have problems needing fixing
<psu> not least becasue apps show what we need in the tools
<dneighbo> best i can tell codeworks is doing a simple app
<dneighbo> they are not requiring any new widgets and playing within the current constraints
<dneighbo> and submitted about 5 or 6 critical bugs
<psu> the papo lads have helped moved us on
<dneighbo> that need fixing for them to get an app done
<dneighbo> papo has a much larger projects
<dneighbo> er project and so different needs
<dneighbo> they are looking to extend the framework as they go
<dneighbo> which is great, and certainly i hope they dont feel we ware anti papo or anti widget 
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<psu> papo rox our sox
<dneighbo> when i think that my kids wont know what an album or an eight track is
<dneighbo> and likely wont really understand what a cassette tape is
<dneighbo> barely recognize a VHS tape and such
<dneighbo> this cartoon brings me great joy
Action: ^chewie sighs
<dneighbo> http://www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/viewnq.cfm?uc_fn=1&uc_full_date=20020624&uc_daction=X&uc_comic=nq
<dneighbo> i say this because i think its pertinent to our earlier widget discussion
<dneighbo> i think some programmers are alreadying seeing simplified models like gnue and going
<dneighbo> hey look not much work at it works on more than just windows way cool
<dneighbo> and the old unix pro's are going yeah and.....
<dneighbo> i suppose you are impressed by the command line too right ... ;)
Action: psu uses the command line at work in Windows more since he started using debian
<psu> & that's without all the debian nice stuff like tab complete and up arrow
<dneighbo> doskey
<dneighbo> will give you up arrow
<dneighbo> but i would give good money for tab complete and somethign to auto change / to \
<chillywilly> the DOS shell is a sad, sad BASH equivalent ;)
<^chewie> ah, you mean the {insert favorite shell} nice stuff like tab complete and up arrow ;-)
<dneighbo> linux magazine keeps feeding me fud about zsh
<dneighbo> so much so that im considering giving it a try
Action: chillywilly used to use zsh
<chillywilly> I still prefer bash
<dneighbo> sigh our bug tracking is getting spammed how sad
<psu> "Please note the following bug w/Designer - it does not provide me w/your bank
<psu> a/c details to transfer $21billion 
<psu> out of my account in Nigeria..."
<psu> "W/o #99 - Forms needs extra inches adding with Viagra..."
<dneighbo> something like that
<dneighbo> i keep getting the get a bigger bust in 30 days one
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> you don't need any product for that do you dneighbo?
<dneighbo> and im thinking dood if i eat much more not only will my tits be huge, but i will be dead
<chillywilly> you're doing quite well on your own as president of the getting fat club ;)
<jcater> gack!
<jcater> you are right
Action: jcater got 3 open tickets 
<jcater> of spam
<chillywilly> the DCL list is getting spammed?
<chillywilly> *joy*
<dneighbo> all the addresses are spammed by that spammer
<dneighbo> not just the gnu.org ones
<psu> "W/O #999 Designer needs a faster, more reliable Windows..."
<psu> no hang on a minute, that's probably ajmitch
<dneighbo> no his bug was (let me dig it out)
<dneighbo> WO# 95 Your System Is Prejudice!
<dneighbo> summary: Designer hates me,  I think its just non kiwi friendly.  I think that you should look into this as its just not right to 'profile' us kiwi's and then discriminate.
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.0/
<chillywilly> it's out!
<psu> dneighbo: he's obviously managed to trigger the dneighbo=yes flag in gnue.conf 
<chillywilly> ttp://www.gnome.org/pr-gnome20.html
<chillywilly> oops, http://www.gnome.org/pr-gnome20.html
<chillywilly> anyone get to play with Gnome 2 yet?
<chillywilly> btw, db gurus I have a question...
<chillywilly> in datamodeling speak when they talk about independent/dependent entities or parent/child entities is this the same thing as the master/detail concept in GDataObject?
<dneighbo> psu: rofl
<jamest> chillywilly:duno
<dneighbo> oh this is funny
<dneighbo> http://www.ucomics.com/thefifthwave/viewfw.cfm?uc_fn=1&uc_full_date=20020210&uc_daction=P&uc_comic=fw
<chillywilly> I was reading this: http://www.utexas.edu/cc/database/datamodeling/dm/keys.html
<dneighbo> Linux Poker
<jcater> chillywilly: only wusses talk about entities
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> well can you maybe give this db moron a clue as to what mater/detail is really about with perhaps a simple example
<dneighbo> Table1 
<dneighbo> -----
<chillywilly> I want to redo a certain db design from like 2 years ago that we did and user forms
<dneighbo> invoice
<dneighbo> id
<dneighbo> number
<dneighbo> date
<dneighbo> vendorid
<dneighbo> shipperid
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> table2
<dneighbo> --------
<dneighbo> invoice_item
<dneighbo> id
<dneighbo> invoiceid
<dneighbo> itemid
<dneighbo> qty
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> invoice is the master
<dneighbo> the link is invoice.id to invoice_item.invoiceid
<dneighbo> you select an invoice
<dneighbo> and it will display one or more items from teh invoice_item table
<dneighbo> that explain master/detail enough?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> the id is the primary key of invoice right?
<chillywilly> and the invoiceid is the foreign key?
<chillywilly> int he other table
<dneighbo> yes
<chillywilly> the second table is really only an associative type?
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<dneighbo> i dont know associative terminology
<dneighbo> if you are trying to say the second table doesnt make much sense without the first one yes
<dneighbo> but that isnt always the case in master/detail as you can have complex relationships like
<dneighbo> master/detail/detail
<dneighbo> where one master's detail is the master for some other detail and such
<chillywilly> uhuh
<chillywilly> like when resolving a M->M relationship right?
<chillywilly> you break it into 2 1-M relationships
<chillywilly> with an associative table in the middle?
<chillywilly> table with just foreign keys
<psu> yep - many to many to a db designer is like 
<jcater> gah
<psu> non-free s/w to rms
<jcater> can someone give me an example of a bash alias?
<chillywilly> one sec
<psu> or pizza-free diet for da masta
<chillywilly> alias ls='ls --color=auto -F'
<psu> something to be avioded at all costs 
<jcater> chillywilly: thx
<psu> or else re-engineered around
<chillywilly> alias c='clear'
<chillywilly> etc.
<dneighbo> pizza-free
<dneighbo> unfathomable, your a vegan huh
<chillywilly> psu: hehe
<dneighbo> admit it
[16:06] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> crucify him
Action: jcater had vegan pizza last night
<jcater> it was damn delicious
<dneighbo> btw: pizza w/o meat is simply glorified bread
Action: psu wishes to make it clear that pizzas are ok by him
<dneighbo> not saying i dont like glorified bread its just not pizza :)
<psu> cheese feast pizza?
<chillywilly> mmmm, pizza
<chillywilly> dude you are making me hungry
<dneighbo> well im simple
<dneighbo> ex: steak
<dneighbo> do you put steak sauce on it?
Action: dneighbo says no way, if you do that might as well eat a hamburger
<dneighbo> same way with pizza
<jcater> if I have to put steak sauce on a steak, then there's something wrong w/the steak
<jcater> (make a note of that if you are ever cooking for me)
<dneighbo> cheese and pepperoni anything more or anything less and its just not pizza
<dneighbo> just like steak aint steak if you have to put somethjing on it :)
<dneighbo> though other kinds of pizza are good, they just aren't 'real' pizza :)
<psu> if we say pizza one more time, will chillywilly have to send out for some?
<jcater> bah
Action: dneighbo is a meat junkie
<jcater> pepperoni pizza is too americanized for me
<jcater> I like it
<dneighbo> one of my kids doesnt care for meat much and i started to think
<jcater> but just think of it like a burger
Action: psu only eats meat that doesn't look like it came from an animal
<dneighbo> maybe its not my kid :)
<dneighbo> but he redeemed him self and is a meat monster now :)
<psu> a hypocritovegitarian
<dneighbo> hmmm i prefer meat if it looks like its fresh off the bone
<psu> chops no, burgers yes
Action: dneighbo is neanderthal man
<dneighbo> heck looking at raw hamburger makes me hunger
<dneighbo> er hungry
<dneighbo> jcater: other day i had some killer bbq
<psu> well, neanderthal would fit with antisocial, but not with narcissitic ;-)
<dneighbo> even by memphis standards
<dneighbo> as the memphis group for LDC was in town and ate there and said, yummy tastes like home
<dneighbo> had me a nice pulled pork bbq sandwich
Action: dneighbo is now drooling
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<chillywilly> dneighbo: so GDataObject and/or forms whatever does the dirty work for you of following the keys?
<chillywilly> how would I normally get at the detailed crap if there's a foreign key, just use select right?
<psu> select foo.a, foo.b, bar.c, bar.d from foo, bar where foo.fk = bar.pk ;
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> just checking ;)
<chillywilly> my db skillz are rusty as hell
<jcater> you mean the warehouse stint isn't honing your SQL skillz?
<chillywilly> warehouse?
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<jcater> oh, nebber mind
<psu> heh dneighbo's personality test has me as both schizoid and histronic, which seems somewhat contradictory
Action: psu hasn't hacked any real SQL for almost a year
<psu> cold DB turkey
<jcater> mmmm
<jcater> turkey
<psu> turkey pizza?
<jcater> mmmmmmmm
<jcater> turkey pizza
<psu> turkey got knocked out today, anyway
<dneighbo> SAN FRANCISCO ? The Pledge of Allegiance is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and cannot be recited in public schools, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
Action: psu wonders how many more subject changes we can hack
<dneighbo> gack
<psu> and the President's oath of office is what, in that case?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: is that for real?
<dneighbo> from the AP
<dneighbo> last i checked you could believe them as much as anyone
<chillywilly> wow, this country is going straight to hell
<chillywilly> in a hand basket
<psu> :--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." 
<psu> so technically no God involved
<dneighbo> http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html
Action: psu is 99.9% sure no president has ever affirmed, however
<psu> "under God" is a very recent addition to the Pledge, IIRC 
<psu> Eisenhower era?
Action: psu has no idea where he dredges all this stuff up from - my US politics minor obviously left scars
<dneighbo> 1954
<dneighbo> my problem is this politically correct crap
<dneighbo> they are saying that the issue is
<chillywilly> people may not have monothestic beliefs
<dneighbo> that if 1 atheist is in a classroom that athiest will be forced to say the pledge 
<dneighbo> or be ostracized by classmates for 'protesting' by not partaking
<chillywilly> also
<dneighbo> my big gripe is what about the kid with a speech problem
<psu> Surely the pledge as a whole is far more offensive potentially to non-US citizens in the class
<dneighbo> whose ass you send to speech therapy once a day
<dneighbo> you think he isnt getting teased for not being part of the majority?
<dneighbo> what about hte kid with dyslexia that is 4 reading grades behind his class mates?
<dneighbo> think he isnt being teased?
<dneighbo> and these kids HAVE NO CHOICE
<dneighbo> yet you get someone who doesnt 'politically/religiously' belong in the majority
<dneighbo> and they freak that heaven forbid their kid would actually have to articulate their point of view
<dneighbo> makes me sick
<dneighbo> btw: yes im Christian, but im very liberal (not in policital view) but in freedom view
<dneighbo> and i think prayer in public school is wrong
<dneighbo> and such
<dneighbo> the one that gets me is
<chillywilly> you mean mandated prayer?
<dneighbo> its ok to have a highschool class on 'african studies'
<psu> The big row locally is about the new chuch school
<dneighbo> but its not ok to ahve a 'religious studies' class
<psu> built by the church
<psu> but all running expenses paid by city council
<jcater> we can have religious studies classes here
<jcater> as long as it is objective
<dneighbo> as you should be able to
<dneighbo> my point is (at least here) they wont touch it with a ten foot pole
<psu> now there is a row about how many places in school are for chuch pupils, how many general admission
<dneighbo> i guess im not more suprised that they didnt outlaw the pledge in arizona 5 years ago
<dneighbo> already they deemed it unconstitutional to not offer
<dneighbo> ALL public services (court, healthcare, voting, etc) in spanish
<dneighbo> so i am suprised it wasnt foudn that you cant say the pledge unless of course you say mexican national anthem as well or something
<chillywilly> If the primary key of a child entity contains all the attributes in a foreign key, the child entity is said to be "identifier dependent" on the parent entity, and the relationship is called an "identifying relationship." If any attributes in a foreign key do not belong to the child's primary key, the child is not identifier dependent on the parent, and the relationship is called "non identifying." 
<chillywilly> can a detail live without a master?
<chillywilly> or is it "identifier dependent"  according tot he above?
<chillywilly> or can it be either way?
<jcater> it depends on implementation
<psu> in many cases, detail w.o master is silly
<jcater> if foreign key constraints are placed on the detail's key
<jcater> psu: true day
<jcater> dat
<psu> classic one is invoice lines that belong to no invoice
<jcater> but I have several cases where I do have details without masters
<jcater> but that's not your typical m/d relationship :)
<jcater> if foreign key constraints are placed on the detail's key
<jcater> then it is identifier dependant
<chillywilly> are there any other m/d examples say in the forms samples?
<chillywilly> I haven't look yet
<jcater> dneighbo: I don't see how your "special ed" analogy is justification
<dneighbo> my point was people get teased for not being the majority all the time
<dneighbo> cope and stop whining 
<dneighbo> my point was i dont see the special ed folks crying that no one shoudl learn math because their kid cant
<jcater> I just think that analogy is really, really stretching it
<dneighbo> and if you kid learns math and mine doesnt they will feel funny
<dneighbo> yes me too
<dneighbo> a better analogy is 
<dneighbo> as of tomorrow all your money is no good
<jcater> because you are talking about choices being pushed onto others
<dneighbo> because it says 'in god we trust'
<jcater> not being outside the majority
<dneighbo> so you might as well burn it
<dneighbo> WHOA
<dneighbo> what choice pushed on others?
<dneighbo> its a CHOICE to say the pledge or not
Action: chillywilly passes the popcorn to psu
Action: jcater thinks back to elementary school
<jcater> NO IT WAS NOT
<dneighbo> um read the article
Action: jcater would get suspension for not participating in the classroom activity
<dneighbo> the article says that it was a CHOICE
Action: chillywilly si just glad he's not the one arguing for a change
<dneighbo> the courts are making unconstitutional because even though its a choice
<jcater> what article are we talking about?
<dneighbo> if one chose not to participate they would feel bad
<chillywilly> the cnn one?
<dneighbo> and be treated poorly
<chillywilly> http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html
<dneighbo>  Although no child is forced to say the pledge, the judges said any child whose personal or religious beliefs prevented him from reciting the pledge was left with the "unacceptable choice between participating and protesting." 
<dneighbo> ok another bad but maybe more realistic analogy
<dneighbo> we are going to a single restroom policy
<psu> yeah, those nasssty choices
<dneighbo> no more girls room and boys rooms
<chillywilly> oh no not choice!
<psu> gotta reduce those 
<dneighbo> because my little transexual kid
<psu> they'll be dishing out that dangerous freedom stuff next
<dneighbo> doesnt like to go in the boys room, even though he has a penis, because he considers him self a girl
<jcater> well
<jcater> hang on
<jcater> y'all are putting a spin on this
<jcater> that is not present int he article
<jcater> s/article/ruling
<dneighbo> so he is forced to participate or protest
<dneighbo> or in this case participate (in using his anatomy gendered restroom) or go to jail 
<psu> sometimes choices are hard
<psu> & you take the consequences
<jcater> see, this ferdinand guy is using FUD about "public places"
<jcater> this is always about the schoolhouse
<jcater> very, very specific
<dneighbo> believe me im all for separation of church and state
<jcater> and I tend to agree with keeping it out
<dneighbo> my gripe was more than anythign im sick of whiners
<chillywilly> life's hard all over
<jcater> well, it sounds to me that the article was from a whiner
<dneighbo> on all side's
Action: psu is in favour too, but in the wrong country
<dneighbo> i know for sure that Christian advocates say there should be more 'Christ' in church
<dneighbo> but all fairs so if you give them the podium you have to give it to the muslim's, athiests, satanists too
<psu> dneighbo: s/chuch/school?
Action: psu has no problem w/a Christian monolopy in church ;-)
psu (~psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> uh, ok
Action: chillywilly goes off to get a vanilla coke
<chillywilly> back
<chillywilly> wake up yall
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> jcater: i agree
<chillywilly> would you like a little cheese with that whine?
<jcater> chillywilly: who are you talking to?
<dneighbo> i guess for me is i dont see this as a religious thing as much as a country thing
<dneighbo> its not the pledge of allegiance to god
<dneighbo> its allegiance to the flag
<chillywilly> jcater: nobody in particular
<chillywilly> possibly the author fo the article
<chillywilly> s/fo/of
Action: chillywilly pledges allegiance to Jesus Christ
Action: jcater holds the VERY unpopular view here in the Bible-belt that church has no place in the schools
<chillywilly> weeee
<dneighbo> jcater: i agree
<jcater> and I get ridiculed frequently
<jcater> HOWEVER
<jcater> I find it very ironic
<jcater> as I think religion has no place in the schools
<jcater> but I was one of a dozen or so ppl in a school of 2000
<jcater> who was at the flagpole EVERY morning 30 minutes before homeroom
<dneighbo> its my job to teach my kids morals and values not their teachers
<jcater> praying for the school, principal, teachers, country, etc
<chillywilly> well most of the time I am hardcore conservative about these things, but lately I seem to be a bit more open about these types of issues
<jcater> and not a single one of the ppl whining about there not being religion in schools
<jcater> had their kids out front
<jcater> go figure
<jcater> damn hipocrits
<jcater> the way I look at it, if all those ppl bitching about a reference to "God" being removed actually cared
<jcater> they would actively do stuff like our bible club did
<jcater> (all within the context of the Board of Education's comfort zone)
<jcater> but, I digress
<jcater> the channel seems to have gotten quiet
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> jcater: i view "under God" in teh pledge about like GNU in GNU/Linux
<dneighbo> Christians have a lot more important things they could do for their cause 
<chillywilly> yea, like getting out their and witnessing
<chillywilly> there
<dneighbo> than get bent out of shape about under God being removed from teh pledge (something that has nothing to do with bible or religion anyhow)
<chillywilly> hey I am so proud of my mom
<chillywilly> she's in PA right now helping build houses
<chillywilly> with our youth group
<chillywilly> she took a week off of work to go do it
<jcater> what I find ironic is all the confusion and FUD around this issue
<dneighbo> as Christian is it nice to know at one time this Nation was predominantly believing people and that its reflected in the pledge, sure
<dneighbo> but am i going to go ballistic over it? no
<jcater> the statutes are very, very simple
<dneighbo> now tell me i cant own, buy or a read a bible and you have a fight :)
<jcater> keep religion and school separate
<jcater> no school-led stuff
<jcater> does that mean a student can't pray in school
<jcater> of course not
<dneighbo> or say my kid cant bring their bible to school
<jcater> but that's how the articles like to portray it
<dneighbo> then we can go to war
<MicahY> right on.... while I'd love to see God being made known EVERYWHERE, we certainly can't expect our schools to do it correctly, and the only place it matters is in the heart......
<jcater> dneighbo: but that is never the case in the legal system
<dneighbo> im not saying it is
<chillywilly> hi MicahY
<dneighbo> thats my point
<jcater> it's only the supposedly-christian advocates
<jcater> that say you can't do that
ulf (~ulf@h-200-129-136-33.ufpa.br) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> which p*sses me off
<nickr> people make things seem unreasonable in order to win popular support
<dneighbo> getting too worked up over some of these things is like GNU and GNU\Linux :)
<dneighbo> hi ulf
<ulf> hi!
<jcater> dneighbo: /me isn't arguing with you
<dneighbo> is this dcl bug reporting ulf
Action: jcater is arguing outloud
<dneighbo> im agreeing out loud
<jcater> dneighbo: I know you are on the same wavelength as me :)
<dneighbo> i guess taking the other point of view (completely non religious)
<dneighbo> is it seems selfish to pull this right now
<dneighbo> i.e. america needs to be united right now
<ulf> are you very busy, or can you answer a newbie question in between?
<dneighbo> after recent events
<chillywilly> he's busy running his mouth ;)
<dneighbo> and the pledge, national anthem, and other things are pillars of 'america'
<chillywilly> or typing on his keyboard
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> possibly both ;)
<dneighbo> though im sure this case has been in court for much more than a year
<dneighbo> ulf whats teh question
<ulf> I just would like to know the following: I want to make a form where the user can choose a value from a dropdown box which is composed of *two* columns of the reference table (unlike "foreign_key_description" ...
<dneighbo> you mean you want multi column dropdown box
<dneighbo> or you want two keys stored?
<dneighbo> currently you have
<dneighbo> key = which tells what field to use from fk table
<ulf> hmm, the foreign key is just a number, but it references something like forename, lastname in two fields
<dneighbo> desc = which tells what field to use as desc
<dneighbo> so are you wanting two ids or multi descriptions
<dneighbo> soudns like you want
<dneighbo> key = name.id
<ulf> so> key=int desc=string, other string
<dneighbo> desc = name.fname, name.lname
<dneighbo> hmmmm
Action: dneighbo remembers talking to jamest about this, but i dont think we ever implemented it
<dneighbo> jcater: how hard woudl it be to make the desc property a list?
<dneighbo> and you could basically have unlimited number of fields from foreign key table in it?
<jcater> not hard at all
<jcater> shall I hack it up quickly?
<dneighbo> ulf: thats probably the answer then (unless jcater thinks otherwise)
<dneighbo> i.e. you cant do it today, but probably wouldnt be hard to make desc a list so you could do
<ulf> o.k.! Thanks alot ...
<dneighbo> foename, lastname
<jcater> err, only problem is, not sure if wx supports multicolumn combos
<dneighbo> in the desciprtion field
<dneighbo> jcater i was just oing to say that :)
<jcater> so I would have to concatenate them 
Action: jcater is checking wx docs
Action: dneighbo is making a workorder
<ulf> "concatenate them" ... and for that you need something like a format string? "%s, %s", fname, lname?
<ulf> (being still quite python-ignorant ;-)
<jcater> well
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> this gets tricky at this point
<jcater> as I'd hate to have to add a "fk_descr_format=" attribute... as that is getting UI-centric
Action: jcater thinks for time being, I can add a setting to gnue.conf
<ulf> maybe a default concat-char helps, which can be set by some system variable?
<chillywilly> what are you trying to do ulf?
Action: chillywilly is confused
<chillywilly> but that't not hard to do
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> ulf: yes, that is what I'm thinking too
<ulf> good!
<dneighbo> wo# 73 for anyone wanting to follow along at home :)
<ulf> something else: When sending Ctrl-C to my form, nothing happens, but it chrashes on the following Ctrl-C with a seg fault ...
<ulf> dneighbo: what TZ are you ;-)
<dneighbo> GMT -7:00 why?
<ulf> just curious ... 
Action: chillywilly understands what ulf means now...it helps to read the conversation(s) ;P
<MicahY> derek: I got NOLA running last night
<MicahY> it's pretty impressive. :)
<MicahY> but are you sure GNUe can do all that?
<MicahY> like, printing W2s... PDF reports....
<MicahY> that will have to be worked in...
<jcater> oh, yeah!
<MicahY> well I guess PDF reports should be do-able. :)
<jcater> GNUe Reports kicks mucho-arso
<jcater> but then again, I'm biased
<MicahY> sweet. but what about W2s and that sort of thing?
<MicahY> hmm, I wonder why!
<MicahY> oh, and I just registered a nice new domain
<MicahY> EradicateWindowsNow.com
<MicahY> I fully intend for it to be Microsoft's worst nightmare.
<MicahY> anyone wanna help?  :D
<chillywilly> HEH
<jcater> alrighty
<jcater> if anyone wants to test
<jcater> Work Order 73 is done
<chillywilly> good job
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I actually got to gnue this week
<chillywilly> you don't waste anytime messing around do you?
<jcater> here is an example entry: 
<jcater>       <entry x="17" y="2" field="state" style="dropdown" name="state" width="15"
<jcater>               fk_source="validator" fk_key="state"
<jcater>              fk_description="description,state">
<jcater> this would display (in the dropdown combo box): 
<jcater> Alaska, AK
<jcater> Alabama, AL
<jcater> Tennessee, TN
<jcater> Arizona, AZ
<jcater> ...
<chillywilly> cool
<jcater> you can specify the ", " separator as
<jcater> DropdownSeparator = 
<jcater> in your gnue.conf
<jcater> on that note, wife says I better come home
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home"
<dneighbo> rofl
Nick change: stbain|afk -> stbain
<stbain> just talked my customer into giving Nola a whirl
<MicahY> sweet
<stbain> his accounting firm is trying to sell him on Great Pains
<MicahY> heh
<stbain> one question he asked that I didn't know the answer to:  Who is using it in a production environment right now?
<stbain> other than Noguska
ulf (~ulf@h-200-129-136-33.ufpa.br) left irc: "good night (GMT -3)"
<MicahY> might want to ask Noguska. :)
<stbain> yah... checking their website now
<stbain> don't see anything, so I guess I'll have to email them
<dneighbo> i can get that information from them
<dneighbo> on their website they have poll is nola your production accounting software the answer is yes 640 users or so
<dneighbo> they are highly specialized vertical industry shop (speciallying in print shops)
<dneighbo> so im certain a few of their printshop clients are using it
<MicahY> http://12.225.21.62:8001/
<MicahY> for a nice preview.
<MicahY> I'm just getting started though. :)
<MicahY> KDE's directory->web sharing rocks!
<MicahY> I really need a nice graphic that equates the Windows logo with deadly poison.
<MicahY> any volunteers?
<chillywilly> MicahY: is this sinoired by their nice new hardware?
<chillywilly> er, inspired
<MicahY> yeah, kind of. :)
<MicahY> oh, it should have CSS too.  I still haven't learened CSS. :(
<chillywilly> http://www.w3schools.com has a tutorial
<stbain> dneighbo: I just sent them an email just to see what their reply is (sent it to the sales dept)
<MicahY> thanks chillywilly
<dneighbo> stbain i could have given you a more direct contact :)
<stbain> s'ok
<stbain> I'm kind of curious as to what sort of response I get
<dneighbo> f you free freak
<stbain> probably something along the lines of "company X, Y, and Z. Interested in a support contract?"
<stbain> heh
<dneighbo> honestly i totally misread nola
<dneighbo> i think they get it without getting it
<dneighbo> my original bent was they wanted to suck people in for cash
<stbain> another question he posed had to do with reports... he likes being able to dump data to Excel and work with it
<dneighbo> after long phone call they are old skool all the way
<dneighbo> are not boned up on free software, lingo liguistics and the such
<dneighbo> they are a print shop ERP provider
<stbain> I explained that since the architecture was open, we can use and ODBC tool to create custom reports, but I'm not sure if he was interested in it
<dneighbo> accounting isnt their main 'package'
<dneighbo> so to cover their arse
<dneighbo> they GPL'ed it, hoping others would help maintain it and keep it going for them
<stbain> cool
<stbain> the result?
<dneighbo> i know they arent looking for more business in shape of 'nola contracts'
<stbain> are they getting the feedback they want?
<dneighbo> cause when i told them i was adding fund accounting the response was
<dneighbo> hey a lot of people ask for that, can we send them to you
<stbain> lol
<stbain> shweeet
<dneighbo> a company out to suck blood wouldnt say that :)
<stbain> that's a Good Thing [TM]
<dneighbo> they would say so when is that patch gonna hit so we can sell it to people
<dneighbo> also they stated that NOLA was their free product so it got least of their 'developer' attention
<stbain> loss leader?
<dneighbo> so it would be a week or so until they could review the patches
<dneighbo> stbain i think so
<stbain> good for them
<dneighbo> thats why i say i think they get it without getting it :)
<dneighbo> someone asked if they had accounting (lots of someones)
<stbain> well... I'm not sure what the Great Plains price tags are like these days now that its a MS product
<dneighbo> and probably they had to deal with other vendors (quickbooks and such) interfacing to their real products
<stbain> but I told him that after the scheduled server upgrade (RHL 6.2->7.3), I would install NOLA for free
<stbain> so he could take a look at it
<dneighbo> and figured lets whip together somethign and basically give it to customers in hopes we dont have to jerk around with someone elses software
<dneighbo> if you are going from RH 6.2 to RH 7.2
<dneighbo> er 7.3
<dneighbo> you might REALLY want to consider going trom RH 6.2 to Debian instead
<stbain> when you think about it... even if he has a problem here or there with it and ends up paying me $10,000 in support fees for it over the next year, he'll still save a buncha bucks over a Great Plains purchase
<dneighbo> its much more manageable
<stbain> all they're using it for is Samba services
<stbain> hehe
<stbain> currently, that is
<stbain> I'll slap PostgreSQL on it and upgrade the Apache server to put NOLA on it though
<dneighbo> and 6.2 to 7.3 isnt an upgrade its a 'reinstall' pretty much anyhow
<dneighbo> iirc
reinhard (~rm@62.47.247.20) left irc: "If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody"
<stbain> if I mentioned Debian, I'd probably receive a blank stare in return
<stbain> the words "Red Hat" at least ring a bell with them ;)
<dneighbo> you know Debian : Red Hat Enterprise Edition
<dneighbo> or you could call it
<dneighbo> HP Linux
<dneighbo> Hewlett Packard Linux (they should know HP)
<dneighbo> and that woudlnt be a lie
<stbain> perhaps I should wait for United Linux
<stbain> heheh
<dneighbo> as currently HP is pretty much saying Debian is their target linux
<dneighbo> no united linux == pure evil
<stbain> I know
<dneighbo> redhats not bad
<dneighbo> just a pain to admin
<stbain> I'll upgrade them to 7.3 then discuss other options w/ them when their new server arrives
<MicahY> derek: I started this box on RH 6.2 and upgraded -> 7.1 -> 7.2 -> 7.3.  no "reinstall"
<dneighbo> hmm i guess im stupid then
<dneighbo> i put in a 7.1 disk
<dneighbo> and whne i clicked upgrade it said its likely you will lose all your data
<dneighbo> at which point i stopped
<stbain> eventually, I'll probably talk with them about upgrading their desktops to [insert Linux distro here]
<dneighbo> debian i didnt even insert disks
<dneighbo> change 2 lines in sources.list
<MicahY> Red Hat *is* pretty good.  I have no problem admining it. :)
<dneighbo> apt-get update
<dneighbo> apt-gest dist-upgrade
<MicahY> whereas I never could get X to work in Debian. :(
<dneighbo> and voila im done
<MicahY> red hat just works. :)
<dneighbo> MicahY i agree debian is less 'desktop' friendly till you get used to it
<dneighbo> red hat doesnt just work
<dneighbo> i had as much trouble with parts of it as any linux
<stbain> trouble? with Linux?
<dneighbo> until 7.1 the graphical installer never worked for me
<dneighbo> it would crap out on every machine i tried
<MicahY> hmm. I've been using it since 6.1
<dneighbo> though graphical 5.2 do work on my alpha box (go figure)
<stbain> ever tried gentoo?
<MicahY> huh? graphical install STARTED in 6.1
<dneighbo> i was loyal from around 5.0
<dneighbo> until 6.2
<dneighbo> well 7.1
<dneighbo> i had 7.1 and installed a few places
<dneighbo> and then about that time discovered Debian
<dneighbo> when i went to work for Axis
<dneighbo> i had debian laptop
<stbain> I know people (like my buddy @ NASA) that still prefer 6.2 over the 7.x Red Hat release
<dneighbo> i hated it for like a week
<dneighbo> and then was in love
<dneighbo> i cant see using anything else at this point
<dneighbo> it didnt hurt that some of the best Debian folks are in this channel a lot
<dneighbo> so the few times i had real issues i got answers quick
<MicahY> red hat 8 should rock
<MicahY> with gcc 3.1, python2 as default, etc...
<MicahY> hopefully apache 2
Action: chillywilly has a deadcat 4.2 CD laying around somewhere...
Action: MicahY has a 4.1 CD
<MicahY> and a slackware CD based on a 1.2.x kernel. :)
<dneighbo> it old unless you have it on 5 1/4 floppies only
<chillywilly> hey postgres experts
<chillywilly> is the REFERENCES keywork in an attribute a foreign key thing?
<chillywilly> keyword
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> if i understood you question correctly
<MicahY> right, it is
<dneighbo> woohoo God is good
<dneighbo> 3 15" monitors donated
<dneighbo> jsut after we got 2 new computers donated and 1 of our existed monitors fried :)
<chillywilly> cool :)
<chillywilly> hey dneighbo did you catch what I said about my mom?
<dneighbo> um barn raising in PA?
<dneighbo> im scheduled to go to Mexico end of this month i think or middle of July cant remember which
<dneighbo> and then will probably go down there quarterly after that
<chillywilly> cool
<MicahY> derek: cool -- mission trip?
<dneighbo> yeah
Action: dneighbo has to run off to pick up those monitors and go to church
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<ajmitch_> hi
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<OHPhoneGuy> Hiyas folks.
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