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<stbain> doh
<stbain> I missed him
<stbain> :/
<stbain> oh well
<stbain> nite all
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<dneighbo> hey nickr guess what
<nickr> what?
<dneighbo> debian kicks ass
<ajmitch> evening
<nickr> well, tya
<dneighbo> oh and btw, we expect you to provide all the mixed drinks from now on
<dneighbo> seeing how you are gonna get that free blender and all
<dneighbo> ;)
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> well mr dneighbo, i'm glad you like debian :)
<nickr> he he
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> apt-get is my friend
<ajmitch> yes
<dneighbo> i actually dont mind new debian installs (if have fat connection)
<dneighbo> as i know its easy to get stuff as i need it with no hassle
Action: ajmitch has no fat connection :)
<dneighbo> btw: im stoked at how much BETTER my display is going to 2.4 kernel from like 2.0 or 2.2 that rh6.2 had and new X 4.1
<dneighbo> its NOTICEABLY better
<dneighbo> not too mention, this might be weird i had 128mb RAM
<ajmitch> display?
<dneighbo> upgraded to 256mb
<dneighbo> and it didnt seem to 'help' any under 6.2
<dneighbo> under 2.4 kernel and debian this feels like a whole new machine performance wise
<ajmitch> rh 6.2's kernel might not have been seeing the extra ram?
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<dneighbo> ajmitch: my laptop has ATI Rage
Action: ajmitch would have thought most display speedups would come from the pa
<dneighbo> which was supported under rh6.2 but i think its supported better now
<ajmitch> patched xfree86 that debian has
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<ajmitch> hi alexey_, reinhard
<dneighbo> ajmitch: well rh6.2 had X 3.x 
<dneighbo> so im sure upgrading X helped tremendously
<dneighbo> BUT thats beauty of debian :)
Action: ajmitch still has major X performance issues
<dneighbo> rh i tried to upgrade and nearly cried when i saw the dependency list
<dneighbo> s/cried/passed out
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<ajmitch> my issues will only be solved by new hardware :)
<rm-away> morning all
<rm-away> and bay
<rm-away> bye
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<ajmitch> hi SachaS
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<ajmitch> psu!
<psu> aj!
<ajmitch> howsit?
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<dneighbo> hi psu
<psu> not out ;-)
<dneighbo> hi jhs
<ajmitch> psu: i'd say lbw
<psu> nope- pitching outside leg stunp
<dneighbo> psu: i love the leading quote for KC 36 :)
<psu> heh
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<SachaS> HI AJMITCH
Action: ajmitch presses caps lock for SachaS
<SachaS> ta
<ajmitch> np :)
<SachaS> you got experience with xslt? ajmitch?
<ajmitch> nope
Action: ajmitch has to run off to uni now, bbl
<psu> dneighbo is our xslt masta
<SachaS> se ya ajmitch
<SachaS> ta psu
<SachaS> dneighbo your xslt masta?
<dneighbo> yes
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<SachaS> dneighbo: i guess you are not using the apache xalan xslt processor for gnue.
<psu> pysablot/sablotron
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<nickr> speaking of pysablot
<nickr> anyone ever work out the licensing, documentation issues?
<dneighbo> SachaS: no way we are adding apache dependencies :)
<dneighbo> btw: we are xslt agnostic
<dneighbo> we have a driver system similar to db drivers (iirc) in reports
<dneighbo> so that you can use any xslt parser you like
Action: psu wants to do a quick convert to a file to replace literal '\n's with real end of lines
<psu> why is tr '\\n' ' \n' < in > out 
<psu> not working? ;-<
Action: psu could've sworn it worked before
<SachaS> dneigbo: thanks. xml, xsd, and xslt are very sensitive. small changes big errors
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<SachaS> dneigbo: having problem with namespaces. default namespace works fine with xml and xsd. but when i want to transform xml with xslt the xslt parser doesnt like the default namespace.
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<dneighbo> SachaS: with gnue or xslt in general
<SachaS> dneighbo: xslt in general.
Action: dneighbo hasnt played too much with multiple namespaces in xslt 
<dneighbo> im not at home this week (at parents)
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<Arturas> Hello
<ra3vat> hello Arturas
<Arturas> Hi Dmitry :)
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<siesel> morning
<ra3vat> hello
<Arturas> hi Jan
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<ra3vat> Arturas: how to get value (for later calculation) of a field in a trigger, just blockname.fieldname returns instance type, not numeric(or string) type
<ajmitch> hi all
<ra3vat> hello ajmitch
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<Arturas> ra3vat: wait a moment, let me see......
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<ra3vat>  TypeError: unsupported operand types for +: 'instance' and 'instance'
<ra3vat> getting this
<Arturas> ra3vat: in my forms i used like 'print pgName.blkName.entryName'
<Arturas> in trigger
<Arturas> this worked (now my cvs copy is broken, so i can't check it)
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<Arturas> something like this did work:  <trigger name="changeDiff" type="NAMED">
<Arturas>     invoice = pgProject.blkAssignment.invoice
<Arturas>     hours = pgProject.blkAssignment.hours
<Arturas>     if invoice == "": invoice = 0
<Arturas>     if hours == "": hours = 0
<Arturas>     pgProject.blkAssignment.diff = float(str(invoice)) - float(str(hours))
<Arturas>   </trigger>
<ra3vat> Arturas but add 'print type(pgName.blkName.entryName)
<ra3vat> oh, may be converting to str first would help
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<ra3vat> seems , that worked
<ra3vat> Arturas: thanks :)
<Arturas> maybe it's already too late, but i made the form, added type(...) to the trigger and this does not work....... but we have working decision anyway :)
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<Arturas> what value will return gConfig from gnue.conf file
<Arturas> if string in file is:
<Arturas> data_string = value_string # comment_string
<Arturas> and we do command
<Arturas> gConfig('data_string') ?
<Arturas> i guess this is a bug
<Arturas> because value returned will be
<Arturas> [print gConfig('data_string')]
<Arturas> value_string # comment_string
<ra3vat> Arturas: can't confirm that
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<ra3vat> Arturas: seems i'm uncompartible with triggers
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> did you feed them with chocolate?
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> what is not working?
<ra3vat> <?xml version="1.0"?>
<ra3vat> <form width="80" title="Simple Calculation" height="8">
<ra3vat> <trigger type="NAMED" name="trgCalc">
<ra3vat> print "Fired\n"
<ra3vat> #if  qnty == "":
<ra3vat> #    gnty = 0
<ra3vat> #if price == "":
<ra3vat> #    price = 0
<ra3vat> #print type(qnty)
<ra3vat> print type(calc.qnty)
<ra3vat> print calc.gnty
<ra3vat> #pg.calc.total = pg.calc.gnty*pg.calc.price
<ra3vat> #print pg.calc.total
<ra3vat> </trigger>
<ra3vat>   <page name="pg">
<ra3vat>     <block name="calc">
<ra3vat>       <label x="2" y="1" name="Label_1" text="Qnty"/>
<ra3vat>       <entry x="2" y="2" name="qnty" width="6" >
<ra3vat>         <trigger type="PRE-FOCUSOUT" name="trg1" src="trgCalc"/>
<ra3vat>       </entry>
<ra3vat>       <label x="10" y="1" name="Label_1" text="Price"/>
<ra3vat>       <entry x="10" y="2" name="price" width="12">
<ra3vat>       </entry>
<ra3vat>       <label x="24" y="1" name="Label_2" text="Total"/>
<ra3vat>       <entry x="24" y="2" name="total" width="10">
<ra3vat>       </entry>
<ra3vat>     </block>
<ra3vat>   </page>
<ra3vat> </form>
<ra3vat> can't get calc.qnty value printed
<ajmitch> print "%s" % calc.qnty, perhaps?
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<ra3vat> ajmitch: does not work. have similar code in other form working tried to make a simple form to play with and no luck
<ajmitch> ok
<ra3vat> found typo gnty with qnty
<ajmitch> ah yes, i should have spotted that too :)
<ajmitch> hmm, maybe print is not best to use from form? perhaps the forms client is capturing stdout?
Action: ajmitch used GDebugMesg 
<Arturas> ra3vat: sorry, was away...
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<ra3vat> works
<ra3vat> how to exclude calculated field from tab order?
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<Arturas> make it readonly :)
<Arturas> hi chillywilly :)
<ra3vat> Arturas: is it a parameter for entry tag?
<Arturas> readonly?
<Arturas> eys, readonly=""
<Arturas> sorry, yes
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<chillywilly> hi Arturas
<chillywilly> ello ra3vat
<chillywilly> hi everyone
<ajmitch> hi
<chillywilly> hey ajmitch
<chillywilly> ajmitch: burning the midnight oil? ;)
<chillywilly> well...almost anyway
Action: chillywilly needs a UPS
<chillywilly> it was storming bad last night
Action: Arturas is away: Lunch! :)
<ra3vat> hello chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi 8)
<chillywilly> later all
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<siesel> hi
<ajmitch> hi siesel
<siesel> hi ajmitch
<ra3vat> hi siesel
<ra3vat> ajmitch: calculated field works, good progress from yesterday
<ajmitch> ra3vat: great
<siesel> hi ra3vat.
<ajmitch> siesel: you sort of got method support working in appserver?
Action: ajmitch couldn't login to it last time he tried, btw :)
<siesel> sort of ;)
<ajmitch> excellent
<siesel> you have to use "test" "test" as username/password pair
<ajmitch> tried
<siesel> which table did you access?
<ajmitch> not sure if it was a login problem or appserver problem
Action: ajmitch tried the appservertest.gfd
<siesel> you have to add all the tables you want to access to the last row in the appserver_users column.
<siesel> appservertest.gfd should work, hmmm...
<ra3vat> siesel: is py-xmlrpc separate package i need to install?
<siesel> yes. 
<siesel> but if you have debian you can just install python-xmlrpc
<ra3vat> i have not
<ajmitch> heresy!
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<siesel> ra3vat: then you have to download it from http://sf.net/projects/python-xmlrpc
<ra3vat> ajmitch: http://www.altlinux.com http://www.altlinux.com/index.php?module=sisyphus
<drochaid> madainn mhath ajmitch
<ra3vat> siesel: is not sf.net/projects/py-xmlrpc a different thing?
<ra3vat> python-xmlrpc - There are no file packages defined for this project. 
<ra3vat> ?
<ajmitch> feasgar math drochaid
<siesel> ra3vat: sorry. I posted the wrong url. sf.net/projects/py-xmlrpc instead if sf.net/projects/python-xmlrpc
<ajmitch> ok, night everyone :)
<drochaid> mar sin leat ;)
<siesel> ajmitch: night
<ra3vat> siesel: yes, found that url in install file already
<ra3vat> night ajmitch
<ra3vat> siesel: Trigger 'person:show' does not exist.
<ra3vat> Function 'show' was called.
<ra3vat> is it expected message?
<siesel> yes
<siesel> at the moment, show is a demo function, which is not a trigger, so "Trigger 'person:show' does not exist" is printed. 
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<siesel> but everything is a very alpha state, because interfaces are not defined, the method namespace is not defined etc.
<siesel> if you have a application which needs a special function or a special way to do something I will try to implemet it.
<ra3vat> what is the difference between frigger and method?
<ra3vat> trigger
<siesel> a trigger is called on a special event. i.e. you can define a trigger person:insertnewrecord which is called every time a new record is inserted into person.
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<siesel> a method is connected to a record/object and is called by a trigger in forms
<siesel> hi reinhard
<reinhard> hi siesel and all
<ra3vat> hi reinhard
<ra3vat> siesel: yes, having trigger is make sense
<jamest> anyone here outside of US
<jamest> on crappy connection
<jamest> on slow computer
<ra3vat> ?
<jamest> :)
<jamest> I've a user claims our site is way too slow
<jamest> implies that it's out new zope server
<jamest> s/out/our
<jamest> i need to find out if it's slow for others
<ra3vat> url?
<jamest> our site = ksu math site
<jamest> www.math.ksu.edu/main
<jamest> or
<jamest> www.math.ksu.edu
<jamest> to get full slowdown
<jamest> a good test of the zopeness of the site
<jamest> would be to click on the Personnel Directory link
<ra3vat> response was very fast for me
<jamest> then 
<jamest> Department Office and Phone Numbers
<jamest> link
<jamest> as that's a non cached db query page
<jamest> very fast == seconds?
<jamest> and what country/connection speed do you have as it'll come up when I talk with them
<siesel> 10 sec / GERMANY / ISDN / (while upgrading debian, so it could be faster)
<jamest> lol
<ra3vat> all pages open fast (without nervous waiting)
<jamest> ra3vat: where are you and what kind of connection
<ra3vat> russia, 128k/b
<siesel> jamest: how can your users add stuff? do they have to use the Zope management interfaces, or do you use Zope/CMS ?
<jamest> i make them use the zope management interface and cadaver (a shell like interface)
<jamest> I'm migrating as much as I can into postgresql tables as well
<siesel> Ok, I thought to do it the same way.
<jamest> works fine
<jamest> zope permissions are a nitemare though
<siesel> hehe. I even thought of using ldap for authentification (ldap user folder)
<ra3vat> jamest: from http://www.seul.org/edu/report74.html Their next need is for people to help install computers in 21 schools in Kansas City, Kansas in September. We encourage you to help out
<ra3vat> jamest i would like to help out
Action: Arturas is back (gone 02:09:47)
<jamest> the page giving more info says i need to be an oracle employee
<jamest> wtf is up with that
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<ra3vat> :)
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<drochaid> allo jcater
<ra3vat> jamest: i have tabbed form with calculated field that works when you insert data row by row, how to get it working when I switch between tabs or run query? what kind of trigger should i add?
<jamest> on forms like that i used to create a named trigger
<jamest> then put a post-change (IIRC) trigger that referenced the named trigger on all fields involved in the calculation
<jamest> that should work for queries
<ra3vat> jamest: can't get it working may be i missunderstand what  post-change (IIRC) trigger that referenced the named trigger is
<jamest> ra3vat: i don't have any examples at work :(
<jamest> but instead of having the trigger definition on each entry contain the trigger text I just point them at the named trigger
<jamest> it's been months since I looked/tested that
<jamest> gnue/forms/samples/button/forms contains named trigger example
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<ra3vat> jamest: now named trigger works with type PRE-FOCUSOUT
<jamest> maybe the post-change trigger is broken
<ra3vat> but calculation does not work if i update data with new query
<jamest> yeah
<ra3vat> jamest: which are left then? :)
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<jamest> the focusout will only fire out navigatoin out of the field
<ra3vat> one more question is there a trigger that is fired one time on form's startup?
<Arturas> ra3vat: you can try with focus-in for the first entry in the form - it should get focus bu default
<Arturas> ra3vat: you can try with focus-in for the first entry in the form - it should get focus by default
<ra3vat> Arturas: will try, thanks
<jamest> if that works it's an interesting hack
<jamest> as we don't have any type of on startup trigger but we need one
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<kemitix> Whoo! Hoo! I finally got GNUe-Forms to show a window!
<jamest> lol
<jamest> now to make it actually do something
<jamest> :)
<ra3vat> jamest: is track sample working? it has a bunch of triggers
<ra3vat> have no luck with PRE- POST CHANGE and ON-NEWRECORD
<Arturas> ra3vat: ON-NEWRECORD does work
<kemitix> jamest: Yeah,  guess I better go dig up some more docs. :/
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<ra3vat> Arturas: i need one that would be fired on each row when datasource is filled after query. will it help?
<Arturas> don't know :/
<jamest> ra3vat: I'm pretty sure we'll need to add a trigger for that
<jamest> i think it'd be fairly easy
<jamest> i think
<ra3vat> blckAddress.helper.object.prevRecord() interesting code in track sample
<ra3vat> jamest: ok
<Arturas> ra3vat: how is your encoding called (something like 'iso8859-13', 'iso8859-1',) ?
<ra3vat> Arturas: i use koi8-r, not sure about iso-* equivalent
<Arturas> this is it
<Arturas> mh
<Arturas> or maybe not :)
<Arturas> thanks :)
<ra3vat> jamest: got behaviour when form is not terminaten properly but restart with login window again and again
<ra3vat> interesting: your datasource has updated, reboot now :)
<Arturas> :)
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<ra3vat> Arturas: PRE-FOCUSIN does not fire automatically on form's startup
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<Arturas> ra3vat: maybe focusin or post-focusin does
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<ra3vat> Arturas: with PRE-FOCUSIN and POST-FOCUSIN two additional "enter" fits are required. FOCUSIN did not worked for me 
<Arturas> have a lot of fun today :)
<Arturas> bye
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<psu_> hi all
<ra3vat> hello psu_
<dneighbo_> sup psu
<psu_> hangin'
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<ra3vat> dneighbo_: do you know if track sample in forms working?
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<psu> hi fil_c - not seen you around for a while ;-)
<fil_c> psu: Nope... I've been offline for a while
<psu> wb!
<fil_c> thanks
<fil_c> I've been keeping up to date with KC GNUe... good job psu
Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Action: psu blushes
<psu> I do enjoy doing it, and my comprehension ratio has improved dramatically since I started
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Action: drochaid is back (gone 01:16:03)
<drochaid> PIZZA PIZZA PIZAA :-D
<drochaid> /dcc dneighbo pizza
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> don't feed him!
<jamest> he's like a stray animal
<jamest> once you feed them they'll never leave!
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> lol
<psu_> leave? they let people leave?
<dneighbo_> yummy
<dneighbo_> psu_ i apply the ankle chains, i dont wear them :)
Action: psu_ will have to try and escape when masta is busy at LWE/SF
<psu_> how goes that, anyway/
<psu_> s///?
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<dneighbo_> its hectic
<dneighbo_> i want to have so much more done
<dneighbo_> sigh
<dneighbo_> speaking of which is jcater around?
<jamest> nope
<jcater> as round as ever
<dneighbo_> roflmao
<dneighbo_> jcater: you have print shop capabilities of any kind?
<dneighbo_> two items
<dneighbo_> a. we need marketing materials
<dneighbo_> b. we need to have them printed :)
<dneighbo_> i think you are probably best situated to design (a)
<dneighbo_> b becomes cost issue, if you have printing facilities it might be cheaper for you to print and ups to me
<dneighbo_> if you dont probably cheaper for me to take digital formats to kinkos or such here
<jcater> I have semi-large format color laser
<jcater> up to 13"x19"
<dneighbo_> i got for free a nice display to hold trifoldss
<jcater> but that's usually for proofs
<jcater> not production
<jcater> we outsource all printing
<dneighbo_> its probably 20x15 or larger clear plexiglass
Action: jcater can get some killer deals on printing typically
<dneighbo_> so you can insert your own print
<dneighbo_> then it has the holder on it for the trifolds
<jcater> as NCS is considered a "large" print customer
<dneighbo_> i was thinking if we can get low cost trifold even b/w 
<dneighbo_> with a nice insert for the holder i can place that on the main table
<dneighbo_> as a help yourself kind of thing
<jcater> I have high-speed b&w lasers
<jcater> but only up to 11x17
<dneighbo_> im thining the insert i would like to be color
<dneighbo_> the trifolds can be black and white
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<drochaid> mmmm ... NICE pizza
<drochaid> trifolds?
<drochaid> inserts?
Action: drochaid hears marketing speak
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<Mr_You> hi
<psu> hi
Action: Mr_You waters the growing channel.
<dneighbo_> drochaid so now you are calling me names?
<drochaid> lol
<psu> house rule is dneighbo needs to find at least 3 bugs in your code that 
<drochaid> just reading up [a little]
<psu> no-one else can 
<psu> reproduce before you are allowed that
<drochaid> dneighbo_: could you promise me that any marketing material you produce will be made availble in various formats?
<dneighbo_> sure
<drochaid> I've got a rather nice colour laser sitting behind me, and I already use it to reproduce OOo marketing materials
<Mr_You> has anyone else shown any interest in coding a web-enabled GNUe?  
<dneighbo_> jcater can promise that
<Mr_You> just curious
<dneighbo_> Mr_You two efforts exist
<dneighbo_> one is in cvs
<Mr_You> cool
<jcater> any marketing materials I produce will be available in press-ready PDF
<Mr_You> hopefully I can extend whatever might be the end result
<drochaid> great jcater
<Mr_You> why do press need PDF? unless they are printing? I've just always used a news service.
<drochaid> what sort of quantities are you looking at for the UK market?
<Mr_You> I guess for letter head?
<drochaid> and do you have a sponsor for it yet?
<Mr_You> sorry jumped in heh
Action: Mr_You has never owned a working printer.
<Mr_You> well I had a dot matrix donated I never used.
<Mr_You> ok I'll stop babbling now
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> tis a very nice networked colour laser I have behind me you know ;)
<jcater> Mr_You: printing press quality
<jcater> now news press
<jcater> :)
<jcater> s/now/not
<drochaid> <drochaid> what sort of quantities are you looking at for the UK market?
<drochaid> <drochaid> and do you have a sponsor for it yet?
<Mr_You> ok
<Mr_You> Pub: #gnue      Mr_You thalakan
<Mr_You> dunno him/her
<Mr_You> anyone offer a suggested price range on sys/database/network admin services?  looking for opinions
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<Mr_You> off-topic sorry, but life is hard heh
<Mr_You> per hour
<Mr_You> based on total # of hours per month or week (msg me I guess)
<drochaid> Mr_You: where abouts are you based?
<Mr_You> NC, USA
<drochaid> oh yeah
<drochaid> are you any good? [don't be modest]
<Mr_You> my background includes 6+ years of Sun admin, Level 2 Cisco Network Engineer at MCI (old backbone), I have mid level DB experience.. from Fortune 500 (MCI, Lucent, Fujitsu) to startups..
<drochaid> if you're capable and can get by with checking resources as needed, I'd say around $30 p/hr ... if you're shit hot, upto $125 p/hr
<drochaid> and somewhere inbetween for anything else
<drochaid> hmm .. I'd probably say at least $60 p/hr up then
<Mr_You> right now I'm looking for $80/hour for custom work.. being that it would only take me an hour or two to complete a lot of work.
<drochaid> then that's falls right in the range I suggested .. so cool ;)
<Mr_You> ie. I'm probably gonna set 30 minute minimum and charge somewhere like that I guess..
<Mr_You> 30 min increments
<drochaid> I'd suggest 15min increments
<Mr_You> yeah but its still too high for small biz :-((
<drochaid> offer small businesses a discount then
<Mr_You> I can't find any biters, I don't even know where to look.. I tried looking local already a year plus.. 
<drochaid> but make it as you discuss the work with them rather than a default small business cost
<Mr_You> and the other side of it is people who just want simple web interface management services.. and they probably wanna pay $8-$15/hour.
<Mr_You> yeah.. I always remind them pricing is based on skills needed and total time.
<drochaid> well, one way to market it could be that although you charge more per hour, you work faster than less experienced people
<Mr_You> yeah
<Mr_You> I'll hafta emphasize that more.
<drochaid> and therefore the job cost difference between you and a less experienced person is much reduced
<Mr_You> I need to find a price for "run my web interface" type management.
<Mr_You> yeah.. I said that on one "ad" but I should emphasize
<drochaid> yep
<drochaid> p/hr costing is misleading ...
<drochaid> don't advertise that bit, discuss it when you meet a potential client
<drochaid> also consider job costing withing set parameters
<Mr_You> well ideally tho, it would be an ongoing deal
<Mr_You> outsourced management
<Mr_You> ok
<drochaid> job cost to get it setup and a service fee, reduced from standard hourly rate maybe?
<drochaid> on the basis that keeping their business is even more important than gaining new business
<Mr_You> I don't follow that statement "job cost..."
<Mr_You> there is no setup fee
<Mr_You> essentially you are just hiring me as a contractor.. with minimum hours per month
<Mr_You> as the cost
<Mr_You> with report of how much used, kinda like cell phone minutes ;-)
<Mr_You> thanks, will take your suggestions
<Mr_You> oh yeah.. and I *NEED* GNUe (geas and "web" available) for backend ;-)))
<drochaid> hmm, I'd have serious issues hiring someone on a min hours per month basis unless I KNEW I was going to use them all
<Mr_You> I know I know it works
<Mr_You> well.. the idea is that you are paying a minimum to employ us period.
<Mr_You> but lets discuss this
<Mr_You> you expect to use above that amount anyways
<Mr_You> if not, you are having a slump in business.
<Mr_You> if you just need per project pricing, that is not the same as management pricing
<Mr_You> follow?
<Mr_You> ie. we provide services for your cost, such as monitoring, etc.
<drochaid> I'd still object
<Mr_You> single point of contact
<drochaid> either I get a fixed service plan regarless or I pay strict useage
<Mr_You> you get both.
<Mr_You> ie. if you need me to be available and monitoring and "daily maint.", that might be only $160/month.. 2 hours..
<Mr_You> but if you use beyond those 2 hours, an hourly charge begins
<drochaid> mm, maybe then
<Mr_You> seems to be you could drastically reduce onsite management
<Mr_You> s/be/me
<Mr_You> hmm
<Mr_You> pricing the way you were.. just a sec
<drochaid> of course, it doesn't help that I have little knowledge of what you're doing ;)
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<Mr_You> pricing the way you were mentioning.. it would be like paying seperately.. which is the same thing.. ie. $160 for daily services and another price for on demand service
<Mr_You> so I'll take that into consideration also
<Mr_You> or maybe $80 for daily services/month with minimum of one hour admin services.
<Mr_You> way cheap
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<Mr_You> bbiab
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<jcater> oops
<jcater> frame relay doesn't like this weather we're having
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<dneighbo_> hi mumpf 
<mumpf> hi dneighbro
<mumpf> i am having no gnue joy lately, CVS version (designer) doesn't even start.  
<mumpf> it says it can't find a module named Instance
<dneighbo_> ok lets start at beginning we will get you all fixed up :)
<dneighbo_> a. you are running cvs from (today)?
<dneighbo_> b. what platform(distro) ex: linux/debian, windows/xp
<mumpf> yes (cvs today). Debian woody.
<dneighbo_> ok
<dneighbo_> what version of python you using?
<mumpf> 2.1.3
<dneighbo_> ok
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<dneighbo_> how did you 'install' cvs?
<dneighbo_> er once you grabbed cvs
<dneighbo_> how did you go about installing gnue?
<mumpf> run ,/setup.py install in common, edit the .conf files in /usr/local/gnue/etc, run  ./setup.py install in forms, designer, reports, navigator
<mumpf> i do that after efery CVS update.
<mumpf> today out of desperation I nuked /usr/local/gnue and started ./setup'ping from scratch.
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<mumpf> it used to work OK for me until a while ago (say 2 weeks). started to learn a bit about forms and getting frustrated abourt docbook docs :-)
<stbain> dneighbo: missed you last night by about 15 minutes
<dneighbo_> dont do that
<dneighbo_> mumpf if you are running cvs
<dneighbo_> in the root of cvs there should be setup-cvs.py or setup-cvs.sh (i cant recall which)
<mumpf> well, the docbook frustration is over: i got docbook-tools from debian and hey presto, docbook2ps and suxch work fine. There was an issue with jade but i can't be bothered to figure that one now that docbook-tools work.
<dneighbo_> run that instead
<dneighbo_> and answer the questions
<dneighbo_> this lets you run cvs and production at same time if needed and gives much greater controll of where things are and such
<dneighbo_> if you can run that and let me know when you have done so
<dneighbo_> then i can walk you through a few configuration tests
<stbain> dneighbo: looks like I'll be going to work for the rescue mission at a reduced salary w/ the understanding that I can use any and all spare/free time to a) build my consulting business and b) develop free software
<dneighbo_> and we can get you giong
<dneighbo_> stbain yummy
<stbain> they have NOLA installed
<dneighbo_> so they willing to use postgres and NOLA
<stbain> haven't started playing with it yet
<dneighbo_> did you install NOLA or acclite
<stbain> acclite
<stbain> w/ MySQL
<dneighbo_> yuck
<dneighbo_> :)
<stbain> hehe
<stbain> don't worry... once they play w/ it
<stbain> I'll convert the production installation to Postgres
<stbain> which brings me to my question for you
<stbain> do you have any sample companies that I can load in for them?
<dneighbo_> nope :(
<stbain> :/
<dneighbo_> i plan to start banging away with testing
<dneighbo_> and out of that i can end up witha  sample company :)
<stbain> time estimate?
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<dneighbo_> nope
<dneighbo_> im displaced this week
<dneighbo_> on laptop w/ no software (thoght quickly getting it up to speed)
<dneighbo_> hopefuly by end of tonight
<dneighbo_> and then i will start grunting forward on acclite
<dneighbo_> last week dcl security fixes were my top priority
<stbain> you on vacation or something?
<dneighbo_> nope
<dneighbo_> im youth pastor at our church i couldnt escape for a full week to go to youth/kids camp so i sent my wife
<stbain> you're the youth pastor?
<stbain> that's cool
<dneighbo_> i have our two little ones, but take them to my parents house so they can watch while im at work (it happens to be on other side of town from my house and work is in the middle
<stbain> I'll probably start working w/ the youth dept. at my church when the school year starts again
<dneighbo_> so im just staying at their place rather drive my self to death
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<stbain> ahhh... so you're not at your home workstation, just your laptop at your folk's place
<stbain> that's cool
<dneighbo_> yip
<stbain> tell mom & dad I said hi
<dneighbo_> and i cant live w/o debian
<stbain> you have your M. Div.?
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<dneighbo_> so on sunday i wiped red hat and installed debian on laptop
<dneighbo_> so its kind of bare bones
<dneighbo_> stbain : nope, i would like to get it though
<stbain> and since you're on a dialup, it will probably stay pretty bare bones, eh?
<stbain> hehe
<dneighbo_> its funny really as i never have 'desired' to be youth pastor
<stbain> my sister and brother-in-law have their M. Div. degrees, met at seminary
<dneighbo_> and at old church the pastor asked me to do it and i was really leary and said ok anyways as the group was small (under 5)
<stbain> wow... we have like... 30-50 active youth at my church
<dneighbo_> then moved and started giong to bigger church youth of about (100+) and the youth pastor asked me to be sponsor and next thing i know im preaching on sunday for htem
<stbain> lol
<stbain> from 5 to 100+
<stbain> nice transition
<dneighbo_> then we planted a church with some folks from there
<dneighbo_> and im very close to the pastor (being one of core families starting the church)
<dneighbo_> and am on council and such
<dneighbo_> and we had 1 youth age kid 
<dneighbo_> and they asked if on wednesdays if i would do a study with him, i said sure (not thinking this was going to be youth pastor thing)
<dneighbo_> i have been having about 6 regularly now and this weekend two new families are coming both with youth kids so now my group is about at 14
<dneighbo_> and some how im officially youth pastor
<dneighbo_> go figure
<dneighbo_> the funny part of the story is i've had all guy youth group for past 3 months or so
<stbain> good deal
<dneighbo_> always they complain no 'chicks'
<dneighbo_> so last week we prayed for 'ladies' and growth
<dneighbo_> that sunday 6 tall blondes show up to service
<dneighbo_> when i started teasing the boys, see God answers prayers
<dneighbo_> they said, you set this up didnt you?
<dneighbo_> and i was like nope, really i dont even know these families
<dneighbo_> i think im taking them all to mexico for mission work next month
<dneighbo_> that should be well interesting
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<mumpf> OK, cool. I tried that, thank you. Is gnue-forms the CVS and gfclient the produuction? 
<mumpf> err, sorry, i didn't mean that.
<jamest> gfcvs = cvs
<jamest> gfclient = production
<jamest> er
<jamest> s/production/fully installed
<jamest> s/cvs/running from cvs directory
<mumpf> i find gfdes from CVS  doesn't work, is that OK?
<dneighbo_> when you installed via the setup-cvs
<dneighbo_> it should have asked you where to put the files (by default it goes to your home dir)
<dneighbo_> so you would run ~/bin/gfdes
<dneighbo_> please do /path/to/gfdes --debug-level 10
<dneighbo_> and then paste here the last 10 lines of the output on failure
<dneighbo_> if you cold
<dneighbo_> s/cold/could
<dneighbo_> also can you do
<dneighbo_>  /path/to/gfcvs /path/to/gnue/cvs/gnue/forms/samples/intro/intro.gfd
<dneighbo_> and tell me if that fails or is a success?
<mumpf> intreo form rund fine. output of ~/bin//gfdes --debug-level 10
<dneighbo_> i have to run, jamest or jcater might be able to help if not i will be back in a few hours
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/wxPython/wx.py", line 1677, in __init__
<mumpf> DB000:     _wxStart(self.OnInit)
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Designer.py", line 104, in OnInit
<mumpf> DB000:     self.SetTopWindow(self.newInstance('forms'))
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Designer.py", line 299, in newInstance
<dneighbo_> ok waiting for output :)
<mumpf> DB000:     return c(self, *args, **parms)
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/designer/src/forms/Instance.py", line 68, in __init__
<mumpf> DB000:     BaseInstance.__init__(self, app, *args, **params)
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Instance.py", line 168, in __init__
<mumpf> DB000:     self.createTools()
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/designer/src/forms/Instance.py", line 112, in createTools
<mumpf> DB000:     self.loadWizards(wizards)
<mumpf> DB000:   File "/home/seb/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Instance.py", line 485, in loadWizards
<mumpf> DB000:     for dir in dircache.listdir(basedir):
Action: jcater broke cvs designer last night
<mumpf> DB000: NameError: global name 'dircache' is not defined
Action: jcater broke cvs designer last night
<dneighbo_> mumpf jcater broke the plate :)
<dneighbo_> im off
Action: jcater will fix tonight when I get back into town
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<mumpf> aaah, well, i suppose i go to bet then and wait for it to heal. thanks for the good work
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<ThreeSeas> chillywilly: what's the scope of gnuenterprise, freedevelopers and dotgnu? how do they relate?
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<chillywilly> ThreeSeas: they're gnu projects? ;) Is this a riddle of some sorts?
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<chillywilly> well 2 of them are anyway
<chillywilly> jan
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<siesel> hi Daniel
<ThreeSeas> Ok, what I'm wondering is about freedevelopers and is gnuenterprise  something along the same lines 
<ThreeSeas> ?
<chillywilly> no, gnuenterprise is an enterprise application framework
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org
<ThreeSeas> Oh, ok, what about freedevelopers.......is it really a dead stick?
<chillywilly> yes it is
<ThreeSeas> shouldn't something be said on the web page?
<chillywilly> various people were discussing it problems on dotgnu developers list recently
<chillywilly> it's dead to most Developers
<ThreeSeas> Ok who are you on the list?
<chillywilly> probably not to Tony, although nothing has been done with it in forever
<ThreeSeas> or have you posted recently.....
<chillywilly> nope, I don't even use my freedvelopers.net email address anymore
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<chillywilly> I do NOT wish to be associated with FreeDevelopers
<chillywilly> the reasons for that do not need to be publicly logged here though ;)
<chillywilly> and it is offtopic for this channel
<ThreeSeas> I was refering to dotgnu list.... or is that to close an association? :)
<drochaid> wtf is FreeDevelopers?
<chillywilly> dotgnu started as a joint GNU and FD project
<chillywilly> drochaid: http://www.freedevelopers.net
<drochaid> ta
<ThreeSeas> didn't mean to be offtopic, but on one ofthe channels I was told you were one that might answer some of my questions, <shrug>
<ThreeSeas> and thanks fr doing so!
<ThreeSeas> :)
<chillywilly> np
<chillywilly> we're not too strict around here about staying on toopic
<ajmitch> hi all
<chillywilly> however, this channel is logged publicly and summarized in Kernel Cousins ;)
<ThreeSeas> so where does dotgnu stand now that there is stagnt friction?
<ajmitch> DotGNU is moving ahead with speed
<chillywilly> dotgnu is going strong despite FD's lack of progress
<drochaid> madainn mhath ajmitch
<ajmitch> ello
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<drochaid> apparently "ello" is now a conversation killer ;)
<ThreeSeas> ~~~
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<drochaid> SEE??!!??
<ajmitch> my deepest apologies, drochaid
<drochaid> well it was my fault the second time .. I should merely have infered what you said
<ajmitch> surely we can blame it on chillywilly?
<chillywilly> of course
<ajmitch> thanks
<drochaid> ah cool, a good compromise
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<chillywilly> hi jcater
<jcater> 'sup?
<chillywilly> writing an xml parser using GParser ;)
<Mr_You> bac
<Mr_You> k
<jcater> cool
<jcater> for what?
Action: jcater is nosey
<chillywilly> ODLML
Action: chillywilly runs away
<Mr_You> hmm this prepped fish dinner ain't bad
<chillywilly> well, right now I am converting an odl file to xml
<ajmitch> hello jcater
<chillywilly> then I can define the GObj children and the dict thingy
<jcater> hi ajmitch
Action: siesel is getting tired (3 am)
<chillywilly> eeek
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<Mr_You> heh
<SachaS> morning ajmitch
<ajmitch> morning? :)
<ajmitch> maybe for you
<drochaid> feasgar math, as I belive the saying goes
<SachaS> ah yeah.
<ajmitch> it is too
<SachaS> ajmitch: are you coming to Perth for the australian linux conference and present gnue?
<SachaS> ajmitch: conference is in January 2003
<SachaS> http://www.linux.conf.au :)
<ajmitch> i doubt that i could :)
<chillywilly> how far away is AU from NZ?
<SachaS> chillywilly, ajmitch: maybe 7 hours by plane, just around the corner
<ajmitch> SachaS: 3 hours from NZ to brisbane or syndey, i think
<SachaS> chillywilly: Perth is at the very west of australia.
<ajmitch> but perth is other side of the country :)
Action: ajmitch imagines rhys would be there, maybe myrddian
<ajmitch> hmm, could be some fun if i ever had the money :)
<drochaid> mar sin leat
Action: drochaid toddles off to bed
Action: drochaid is away: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
<ajmitch> night drochaid
Action: chillywilly wires ajmitch some cash ;)
<ajmitch> chillywilly: it says that i'd need to be a good presenter & have a v.good technical knowledge of the subject
<ajmitch> abstracts are also due in 5 days ;)
<chillywilly> get to work then ;)
<ajmitch> *cough*
Action: ajmitch is a clueless newbie
<chillywilly> hehehe :)
<SachaS> chillywilly can come as well....
<SachaS> make some holidays in Australia and combine it with the linux conference
<ajmitch> "Abstracts are required for paper, tutorial and work in progress presentations. Abstracts should be up to 400 words and be submitted to the Paper Review Committee at the address lca-cfp@conf.linux.org.au."
Action: ajmitch would have to get *much* better at GNUe stuff before then
<SachaS> ajmitch: i think they are going to extend the date for abstracts
<ajmitch> and i'm a uni student, not a presenter ;)
<chillywilly> bah, for me they were one in the same
<chillywilly> don't they make you take a speech class ajmitch?
<SachaS> lol
<ajmitch> chillywilly: certainly not
<chillywilly> (one where you have to give speeches in public/class)
<chillywilly> ajmitch: wow, that sucks
<ajmitch> did that at HS
<chillywilly> ok
<ajmitch> we may have to present simnars to the class next year or later
<ajmitch> seminars
Action: ajmitch has to run out sometime soon
<chillywilly> well that's good
<chillywilly> if you do a senior project you will surely have to present it ;)
<ajmitch> and **** around with IE5
<ajmitch> yeah, i will
Action: ajmitch doesn't have much problem with that
Action: ajmitch is able to BS his way thru speeches :)
<chillywilly> well what I thought was cool about speech class is that we get to have a banquet at the end and everyone gives a speech
<chillywilly> s/get/got/
<chillywilly> and there's food and all that good stuff
<ajmitch> interesting
Action: ajmitch is just a simple student, none of that fancy guff
<chillywilly> I believ they made us take that class as a freshman or sophomore
<chillywilly> I don't recall
<chillywilly> or I suppose you can put it off until senior year like some people ;)
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