[00:42] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<chillywilly> hi
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<siesel> morning
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<ra3vat> hello
<siesel> hi ra3vat
<chillywilly> wassup
<ra3vat> hello siesel, chillywilly
<siesel> chillywilly: you still working on the parser?
<chillywilly> er, yea trying
Action: chillywilly needs some artificial stimulant like caffiene
Action: Mr_You drinks lots of sweet tea, have to cut back late night.
<chillywilly> can't say I am very far  at all, because I am so tired, but I have to stay up
<siesel> you should try chocolate or.. donuts
<Mr_You> hrrmmm no donuts
<Mr_You> krispykreme ain't open
Action: chillywilly should go get some vanilla coke
<Mr_You> we have some going flat in the fridge, but its almost gone
<chillywilly> then I can bring it in tomorrow when we work 3rd shift
<Mr_You> you workin a puter job?
<chillywilly> nope, instal fire alarm systems
<Mr_You> ahh
<Mr_You> still lookin tho?
<chillywilly> we have to put in a system in the surgery part of a hospital
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> we, fix some crap anyway
<chillywilly> s/we/er/
<nickr> chillywilly: reward your curiosity
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> does python compile to binaries?
<chillywilly> uh
<chillywilly> they byte compile
<chillywilly> .pyc files
<Mr_You> that is a binary file I guess?
<chillywilly> sorta
<Mr_You> whatcha mean?
<chillywilly> not the same as a regular ol' executable
<Mr_You> but it doesn't contain viewable source code or does?
<chillywilly> python is interpreted
<Mr_You> yeah I know
<chillywilly> not the .pyc
<chillywilly> files
<Mr_You> ok
<chillywilly> they are "optimized"
<chillywilly> or what not
<Mr_You> cool
<chillywilly> I dunno what it really does
<Mr_You> I was just thinkin some day I may need to do that.
<Mr_You> but not now.
<Mr_You> I could do it in C, but might as well learn a useful language .. hehe
<chillywilly> heh
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<Mr_You> hi alexey
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<chillywilly> oneway void speakInIRCChannel();
<chillywilly> this is part of DaMasta interface ;)
<chillywilly> i.e., he gets no replies because he's too busy talking ;)
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<Arturas> Hello
<Mr_You> hi
<Mr_You> heh chilly
<ra3vat> hello Arturas
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Action: Mr_You & night
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<ra3vat> hello jamest
<ra3vat> jamest: have you seen what problem i faced yesterday?
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<jamest> no
Action: jamest is going to be very, very absent today.  Going to be away from work till next thursday and have tons of stuff to do before quitting time today.
<jamest> can you give brief description of issue
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> jcater: you here? i'm in trouble
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> i did five forms instead of 5 pages in one tabbled
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> "connected" them with navigator
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> now if I open one, get all rows with F8,F9 
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> then open another (first one still exist)
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> query in second is not working
<jamest> and I'll make up some BS answer to get myself off the hook
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> if I then close first one and fit F8 in second - i'm going back to shell with 
<jamest> ok, i hit this too
<jamest> you using the toolbar to query?
<ra3vat> yes
<jamest> what I found is that multiple forms opened in navigator link the toolbar to the first form
<jamest> the keyboard should do the right thing
<ra3vat> i'll try
<ra3vat> is it bug or feature?
<jamest> bug
<ra3vat> ok
<jamest> did the keyboard work?
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<ra3vat> yes
<jamest> isn't cvs code kewl!
<ra3vat> is it fixed already?
<jamest> no
<jamest> i don't have time
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<Arturas> bye
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<dneighbo_> hi jeffsw110 
<jeffsw110> Hi Derek
Action: dneighbo_ wets himself
<dneighbo_> nickr / chilly
<jeffsw110> Oops
<jeffsw110> Soory
<dneighbo_> get this my favorite (dr pepper) is introducing new red drink :)
<dneighbo_> PLANO, TEXAS, May 10, 2002 - When it is introduced to the American public in mid-July, Red Fusion will become the first new flavor addition to the Dr Pepper line-up in its 117-year history. Sporting an alluring red color and use of a variety of fruit flavors,
<jeffsw110> Marketing
<jeffsw110> sheesh
<dneighbo_> first mtn dew gets code red
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> someone should be different
<jcater> and bottle "big blue"
<nickr> ooh
<nickr> pepsi is introducing blue pepsi too
<jcater> oh
<nickr> they arce going nuts with the coloured flavoured drinks
<jcater> nevermind
<jcater> yeah, I agree
Action: jcater personally prefers clear drinks
<dneighbo_> yeha everclear
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<nickr> hehe
<nickr> everclear's some harsh stuff
<nickr> hmm, Code Red and Everclear
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<jcater> everclear works just fine
<jeffsw110> Guys, I d/l the latest snapshot, and whenever I try to run gnue-designer, I get ImportError: "No module named gnue.designer.forms.Instance"
<jamest> it's fixed in cvs
<jamest> almost
<jeffsw110> There is /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/Instance.pyc
<jamest> I'm commiting now
<jeffsw110> Ok, cool. Thx
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<jeffsw110> I'm trying to get a handle on gnue to start some projects here at work.
<jamest> we'll just ignore the fact that I broke it to begin with. OK? :)
<jeffsw110> LOL, ok
<dneighbo_> you can use 0.3.0 as well if breakage is concern
<dneighbo_> generally we are pretty good about clean cvs
<dneighbo_> btw: im curious, being the marketing guy
<dneighbo_> a. how you learned of gnue
<dneighbo_> b. how you might plan to use it (you mentioned work projects)
<dneighbo_> some of part b is there are several under the radar projects going on, that may be similar to your needs and have room for collaboration
<jeffsw110> A year or so ago I stumbled on the website, browsing for open source accting s/w
<jeffsw110> I am going to cut my teeth making a Football Pool app, so users can enter their picks online and see the results on Monday.
<jeffsw110> Then, I have an app so our buyers can search for vendors that sell the same products
<jeffsw110> A quick search deal with notes
<jeffsw110> nothing fancy, but I see it growing
<dneighbo_> cool
<dneighbo_> if possible we would love to anything you do released to the public to help showcase gnue
<jeffsw110> I intend to do that.
<dneighbo_> i.e. the framework is pretty usable, but we really need applications to help promote it
<jeffsw110> Kinda give back
<jamest> cvs is fixed
<jcater> all of cvs?
<jcater> dang, you are good!
Action: jcater ph34rs j4m3st
<jcater> jamest, even
<jcater> ok, guys... we have a basic technotes system in each of the modules
<jcater> read */doc/technotes/00000.txt for more information or */doc/technotes/index.txt for a listing of technotes
<jcater> (which are few and far between at the moment)
<dneighbo_> ?
<dneighbo_> .txt?
<dneighbo_> should we make these reallly really basic xml?
<jcater> um
<dneighbo_> so we can make html or txt from them
<jcater> HELL NO
<dneighbo_> i.e. pretty much for linking purposes only
<dneighbo_> so you can make a nice index
Action: dneighbo_ hasnt looked at them
<jcater> yes
<jcater> have a script that does that
<dneighbo_> ok
<dneighbo_> and formats well for html
<jcater> it'd be trivial to do an html converter if need be
<jcater> not sure why we'd need it
<dneighbo_> i.e. so crap doesnt roll off edge of broswer and such in case some numb nuts uses odd text editor
<jcater> but we could
<dneighbo_> um im a dillo snob now for docs
<dneighbo_> dillo index.html
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<dneighbo_> and then being able to use a hyperlinked index is nice (imho)
<dneighbo_> aslo so we can publish on web
<dneighbo_> certainly a script can work for this as well
<jcater> dillo?
<jcater> btw
Action: jcater doesn't consider this "Docs" in traditional sense
<dneighbo_> apt-get install dillo
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<dneighbo_> dillo&
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> jeffsw110: cvs is still broken, i had a fix for one issue that broke designer, removed that fix and the old bug is back
<jamest> so you can either have designer load existing forms but not create new ones
<jamest> or have it create news one but not edit old ones
<jamest> :)
<jeffsw110> Ok
<jeffsw110> I'll wait
<dneighbo_> why not just toggle the patches :)
<dneighbo_> apply patch1
<dneighbo_> create new form
<dneighbo_> apply patch2 
<dneighbo_> edit forms
<dneighbo_> repeat ;)
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<dneighbo_> jamest/jcater either of you use htdig before
<dneighbo_> we really need searchable irc logs
<dneighbo_> other than ssh grep
<nickr> a scirpt that runs grep on the logs and presents a webpage would work :)
Action: jamest uses htdig but has 0 time to setup right now
<dneighbo_> wtf
<dneighbo_> nickr youhere for real
<dneighbo_> i tried tune2fs and get wierd answer (suprise)
<dneighbo_> wright:/home/dneighbo# tune2fs -j /dev/hda
<dneighbo_> tune2fs 1.27 (8-Mar-2002)
<dneighbo_> tune2fs: Bad magic number in super-block while trying to open /dev/hda
<dneighbo_> Couldn't find valid filesystem superblock.
<dneighbo_> ---
<dneighbo_> wright:/home/dneighbo# less /etc/fstab 
<dneighbo_> # /etc/fstab: static file system information.
<dneighbo_> #
<dneighbo_> # <file system> <mount point>   <type>  <options>                       <dump>  <pass>
<dneighbo_>  /dev/hda1       /               ext2    defaults,errors=remount-ro      0       1
<dneighbo_>  /dev/hda5       none            swap    sw                      0       0
<dneighbo_> any ideas?
<dneighbo_> fsck never mind
<dneighbo_> i see now the 1 wasnt typed after hda...
<dneighbo_> i have hurt thumb and its affecting my typing seriously
<dneighbo_> sigh i want to kernel upgrade, will kill my 120 day uptime on this desktop
<jamest> if it spent less time where you keep it then the circulation would be better and it wouldn't hurt so much
Action: jamest runs
<dneighbo_> rofl
<dneighbo_> oddly the dog bit me
<dneighbo_> our daughters dog
<nickr> I'm here
<nickr> dneighbo_: /dev/hda isn't the filesystem, its the physical disk
<nickr> dneighbo_: you mant /dev/hda1
<dneighbo_> yip
<dneighbo_> figured it out after reading what i pasted :)
<dneighbo_> since i will lose my uptime
<Mr_You> re
<dneighbo_> on kernel upgrade i think i will switch to grub too
<dneighbo_> what is funny is i was gonna pick on windows but i think probably can be said for other linux distros too
<dneighbo_> good package managment - free
<dneighbo_> 120 desktop uptime - free
<dneighbo_> upgrading kernel, filesystem, bootloader during lunch - priceless
<Mr_You> solaris does a great job
<Mr_You> almost no user intervention needed for a solaris upgrade
<Mr_You> depends mainly on the apps involved such as oracle or volume manager
<Mr_You> I guess tho debian does a good job too
<jamest> Mr_You: ?
<jamest> they always recommend a reboot in the patches clusters
<jamest> unless solaris 9 changed that
<Mr_You> yeah a reboot would be mandatory for a system upgrade ;-)  
<Mr_You> reboot might not require user intervention ;-)
<Mr_You> these future blade servers are gonna be awesome.. forget 1U.
<Mr_You> now someone just put dual AMD CPUs on a single blade, yeah right
<Mr_You> no time soon anyways
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<hkhk> hi
<hkhk> who told me about printshop accounting?
<Mr_You> derek?  NOLA IIRC
<dneighbo_> brb
<dneighbo_> yeah me
<dneighbo_> i need to reboot (hangs head) new kernel i promise
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<Mr_You> dunno how a recruiter expects you to be submitted when 1) they don't know how to read file attachments and 2) they don't have a job description for you
<chillywilly> heh
<Mr_You> she is very clueless.. I said "I can't agree to being submitted without a job description".. duh
<Mr_You> "UNIX ADMIN" is not good enough
<Mr_You> could be me but she had a hint in her voice of "this guy is too much trouble" and if that turns out to be the case I'll call her boss.
<Mr_You> haven't met a recruiter that slack in a while
<Mr_You> maybe she's new
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<Mr_You> I just C&Ped my resume in the body of the email so she'll have no excuse
<chillywilly> I hardly think asking for a job description is "too much trouble"
<chillywilly> she needs a kick in the ass ;)
<Mr_You> no joke
<Mr_You> jr level Unix Admin will turn backup tapes all day.. no do not submit me heh
Action: chillywilly should go get some cousins subs
<Mr_You> tho I could probably get a lot of free time with a job like that
<chillywilly> :P
<nickr> usually recruiters are crazy effictive
<nickr> like some sort of job seeking ninja
<Mr_You> yeah
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<dneighbo_> nickr: im having grub troubles
<Mr_You> this one cool guy I just met at the bar that works for my last contract job.. I met him and my old recruiter by chance at this place.. well anyways.. he's a real cool guy.. he's giving me some jobs just to help me out.. they aren't even through him.. but he would like me to let him know, if I find out, what companies these jobs are at.. so they can beat a competitor ;-)
<dneighbo_> on reboot i get
<dneighbo_> Black screen and in corner it says
<dneighbo_> GRUB Read Error
<dneighbo_> and thats all
<dneighbo_> never tries to load anything
<nickr> how'd you install it?
<dneighbo_> via nick install tutorial in logs
<nickr> did you give the right partition names in the comments of menu.lst?
<dneighbo_> apt-get --purge install grub lilo-
<dneighbo_> grub-install /dev/hda
<dneighbo_> update-grub
<dneighbo_> answered y to create menu.lst
<nickr> try redoing grub-install
<dneighbo_> you said if root is on /dev/hda1 golden
<nickr> ah, thats true
<dneighbo_> so rebooted go thtat error
<dneighbo_> so rescue disked 
<nickr> I think I told you to do grub-install twice
<dneighbo_> looked and menu.lst and it looked sane
<dneighbo_> so did grub-install again
<jamest> why grub over lilo?
<dneighbo_> and update-grub etc and stil sam eissue
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<nickr> weird
<chillywilly> lilo sucks ;)
<nickr> what kind of drive is this?
Action: chillywilly is away: shower, go get cousins subs
<dneighbo_> nickr just a second
<nickr> hmm
<nickr> read error.
<nickr> so strange
<nickr> I've encountered things like this, like grub just won't work on some computers
<nickr> but I thought that was a long time ago
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<dneighbo_> well this is very old hardware
<dneighbo_> p200
<dneighbo_> with removable drive (just a case thing)
<dneighbo_> how can i go back to lilo
<Mr_You> run lilo command IIRC
<Mr_You> man lilo
<nickr> dneighbo_: reinstall lilo and uninstall grub
<dneighbo_> nickr did that and edited lilo.conf up
<dneighbo_> to point to /initrd.img
<dneighbo_> and such
<dneighbo_> seeing now if works
<dneighbo_> seems to be booting
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:21:24)
Action: chillywilly uses this command to install grub
<chillywilly> nstall /grub/stage1 (hd0) /grub/stage2 0x8000 p /grub/menu.lst
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> install /grub/stage1 (hd0) /grub/stage2 0x8000 p /grub/menu.lst
<chillywilly> form the shell or menu
<chillywilly> my laptop doesn't handle grub-install script either
<chillywilly> you can make yourself a boot disk and add that as a menu entry like:
<chillywilly> # Installation step for GRUB hard disk boot blocks
<chillywilly> title   Install GRUB from hard disk into MBR
<chillywilly> root    (hd0,0)
<chillywilly> install /grub/stage1 (hd0) /grub/stage2 0x8000 p /grub/menu.lst
<chillywilly> or you can use lilo of course ;P
<jcater> wtf
Action: chillywilly is away: subs
<jcater> why go thru all this trouble?
<jcater> why not just use lilo?
<jcater> it's always worked for me
<chillywilly> cause grub is a multi-boot compliant bootloader and it can load the Hurd ;)....tis the only reason
<chillywilly> bye
<jcater> and who would want to boot the Hurd?
<jcater> s/who/what sane person
<chillywilly> hackers and OS system developers are the onyl people right now
<jcater> ok
<jcater> so that rules out dneighbo
<chillywilly> there's a port to the L4 microkernel on the way
<chillywilly> should be cool
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> ok, I am gone for real
<chillywilly> buh-bye
<ajmitch> morning
<dneighbo_> jcater honestly this is first time out of like 10 i have had issue with grub
<dneighbo_> to me its menu.lst makes much more sense
<dneighbo_> and gives mre mroe control that lilo
<dneighbo_> but im certainly not 'anti' lilo
<dneighbo_> i.e. the 10 minute lilo2grub didnt work in this cas
<dneighbo_> e
<dneighbo_> so im staying with lilo i dont want grub bad enough to fight it :)
<dneighbo_> plus if i ask nick for help and he finds out im not using grub he is likely to stop  ;)
<ajmitch> dneighbo_: assignment stuff?
<nickr> whats this about not using grub!?
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<_dneighbo> yummy new X and shiny 2.4 kernel with ext3
<_dneighbo> all very smooth cept minor grub incident
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<hkhk> y0
<hkhk> dneigh
<_dneighbo> im back hkhk ifyou had nola questions
<ajmitch> _dneighbo: yo
<ajmitch> _dneighbo: what's the deal with assignment stuff? :)
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:26:28)
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<_dneighbo> um um i meant to send it yeast day
<_dneighbo> adfasdfsdafasdf
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<dneighbo_> ajmitch sorry ssh connection for irc faultered
<ajmitch> dneighbo_: ah ok
<dneighbo_> um ithought i sent but maybe not as that was weekend email wasnt letting me send
<dneighbo_> will try to do when i get home
<ajmitch> great, thanks
<nickr> dneighbo_: so when is the pysablot guy gonna release a new version?
<chillywilly> is there something that will validate xml schemas and xml documents?
<nickr> xmlproc_vall
<nickr> xmlproc_val
<nickr> or xmllint
<chillywilly> in pysablot?
<nickr> Nope
<nickr> libxml2 (xmllint) or python2.n-xml (xmlproc)
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> I though libxml2 might have what I need, but I haven't looked yet
<nickr> these are command line validators
<nickr> btw
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I caught that
<chillywilly> just saying I was about to look in libxml2
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<Mr_You> hmm turbolinux is dead supposedly, wonder what will happen to the code
<dneighbo_> nickr i dont know
<dneighbo_> never maybe :)
<dneighbo_> j/k why not put in sid what you have?
<Mr_You> maybe its a rumor
<nickr> dneighbo_: I can't
<nickr> dneighbo_: there is no license and no documentation and no copyright statements
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<dneighbo_> can you email derek@gnue.org exactly what files you need
<dneighbo_> or better yet send email to www-support@gnuenterprise.org 
<dneighbo_> i will get you what you need
<nickr> I don't need *files*
<nickr> specificly
<nickr> just you know, a statement of ownership/copyright and a free license
<nickr> and I'd be happiest if upstream released something with those things in it
<nickr> like on the sf page
<dneighbo_> tahts what i mean i will make the files for him
<dneighbo_> and send as a patch
<dneighbo_> and ask him to release on source forge so we can get in debian
<nickr> okay
<nickr> dneighbo_: sent
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<dneighbo_> rock
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<bkuhn> hi
<bkuhn> anyone here?
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<bkuhn> hi
<jcater> hi
<jcater> what brings you to our neck of the woods?
<bkuhn> I was hoping to find a few GNU Enterprise hackers.
<bkuhn> We are getting close to really needing some hacker talent to build a functional contact and donor management system for FSF.
<bkuhn> We don't want to write just a hack; we'd like to make something other non-profits could find useful.
<bkuhn> but we don't have the resources.
<jcater> where
<jcater> err
<jcater> where's derek when you need him
<jcater> he was working on such a beast
<bkuhn> well, we don't need to discuss this *tonight*. :)  I was thinking about it tonight so I thought I'd stop by.
<jcater> ah
<jcater> I wish I could be more help, but we just got moved into our new house
<jcater> so I'm up to my ears in stuff to do this week
<jcater> I was just stopping in to see how things were going
<jcater> I imagine derek will be in shortly
<jcater> he's usually on about this time
<jcater> he has a nasty commute
<jcater> I'm currently writing a Rental Property management app using our tools
<bkuhn> I may be gone by then, but I'll get in touch with him soon.
<jcater> and it is a piece of cake
<jcater> the biggest problem I have is defining exactly what I want
<bkuhn> jcater: cool.  any chance the app itself could be released itself as Free Software?
<jcater> oh, of course
Action: jcater is part of GNUe core
<jcater> so it'll be a GNUe app I imagine
<jcater> if not official gnue, at least "endorsed" and free :)
<bkuhn> cool.  It would be good to see some apps out there  that  use the tools.
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> that's our biggest problem
<jcater> Both jamest and I (we're the main forms, reports, and designer coders) use GNUe extensively at work
<jcater> so we know what it can do
<jcater> but until we get some real-world apps out
<jcater> it
<bkuhn> yeah, I know.  The problem is that others don't see it becuase there are no apps.  
<jcater> it's hard to explain to people exactly what we are capable of
<bkuhn> BTW, your forms library can have multiple interface generators right?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> GTK / Win32 is well supported
<bkuhn> There is some desire for us to have a web app ... derek said the web app stuff had been started, do you think it would be possible to get it going further with some minimal work?
<jcater> Curses / KDE / HTML started, but not completed
<bkuhn> .. you antcipated what I was asking.  ;)
<jcater> we get that question alot
<jcater> at this stage, we are really need-driven
<jcater> so if there's a need, it gets coded
<jcater> (we consider FSF a "need" :)
<bkuhn> cool.
<jcater> by need-based, I don't necessarily mean coder needs only
<bkuhn> We can provide some staff time, but not much.
<jcater> we try to be responsive to end-users' needs
<bkuhn> my hope is that we can act as an active user, talking about needs and such.
<jcater> but then again, there's only a few of use too
<jcater> relatively speaking, of course
<bkuhn> Our current Technology Director, Paul Fisher, has done a data analysis.
<bkuhn> RMS is pushing us to do a simple hack so that we don't need to spend much staff time on it, which would be sad, because I know the GNUe stuff could get us something really nice.
<bkuhn> so my hope is to find volunteers who can help so we can spend minimal staff time, and get something nice for FSF and the world -- instead of something "barely adequate" for just FSF.
<jcater> in all honesty, using GNUe would probably be even quicker than a quick hack
<jcater> the trouble is getting ppl started on it
<bkuhn> jcater: agreed.  Any suggestions to get people started?  What can FSF do to spur things on?
<jcater> well, firstly, whoever will be helping must be "on-board"... or, better put, must accept that we can and will be a solution
<jcater> doing similar projects in the past, the 
<jcater> in-guy "helping" us get acquanted has his own objectives
<jcater> and usually railroads us
Action: jcater isn't speaking of fsf, just some other things we've tried doing
<jcater> so we've always gotten dropped before we even got started
<jcater> maybe it's because GNUe isn't "geeky" in the traditional sense... we are geared more towards business needs than hacker needs
<bkuhn> Well, as a GNU project we don't want to railroad you.
<jcater> not to rag on the hackers, mind you....
<jcater> I'm just saying, that's the usual outcome :)
<bkuhn> Our experience last time is that we had long talks and then no coding got done.  
<jcater> yeah, that is a bad thing
<bkuhn> From my point of view, what I need is some reasonable, but hard, deadlines for something to be produced.
<jcater> in my opinion (and I wish derek was here)
<jcater> we should do one or two USABLE and USEFUL screens
<jcater> that you could start using right away
<jcater> this would accomplish several things:
<bkuhn> This *is* an application for our non-technical staff.  Our tech guy has some requirements to integreate with stuff he's already done, but we want it to be end user oriented.
<jcater> 1. Show that GNUe is capable of what you need
<jcater> 2. Get your users acquanted (and get feedback - positive or negative - from their viewpoint)
<bkuhn> one problem: we have an input and merge problem.
<jcater> 3. Give your staff (if they are going to help us do your project) example forms to work from
<jcater> hmm
<bkuhn> we have existing data in a really shitty format that is big.
<bkuhn> to make the system useful right off, it needs to have the imported data.
<bkuhn> so, there are bootstrapping issues.
<jcater> what kind of formats are we talking?
<bkuhn> a big text file that is transaction, not "contact" oriented.
<jcater> and any chance we could get some samples (does not have to be live data)
<bkuhn> So, if you bought things /donated from FSF twice in the last five years, we'd have you in twice, likely with slightly different entries.
<jcater> or does derek already have samples?
<bkuhn> jcater: I can get some samples of that; although I have to check that my  script that removes sensative data works without fail.
<bkuhn> It looks mostly like:
<bkuhn> Field: Data
<bkuhn> e.g.
<bkuhn> Shipping-Address-1: 59 Temple Place, Suite 330
<bkuhn> the problem is that each record refers to a "Transaction" and it's not in any normal form.
<jcater> what kinds of programs do you have interfacing with this data now?
<jcater> is there just one primary program? or a lot of different programs?
<bkuhn> A hacked together Emacs Lisp application.
<bkuhn> The import process would have to be user directed.
<bkuhn> If we can get to the point where we have a good table layout, we could do that in house.
<jcater> user directed? as in?
<bkuhn> jcater: asking the user: "Are these two transactions actually refering to the same person?"
<jcater> gotcha
<bkuhn> We have some specific needs for database layout.
<jcater> is this hacked-together lisp application publicly available?
<jcater> or only internal?
<bkuhn> As last it was left with Derek, we showed him a database layout that would work for us, and he was going to try to merge it.
<bkuhn> jcater: it may only be internal; we wouldn't mind making available of course, but it is junky.  ;)
<bkuhn> (i.e., merge it in with canonical GNUe tables)
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<dneighbo> hi brad
<jcater> you just missed him
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<fitzix> yeah - why do people always leave when I come around? :)
<jcater> deodorant?
<jcater> (or lack there of?)
<fitzix> damn man - you can smell that through IRC?!? :)
<jcater> luckily, no...
<jcater> or I'd always be smelling chillywilly's dead trout
<fitzix> lol
<fitzix> fichy
<fitzix> fishy
<fitzix> well - gotta run here
<fitzix> jcater: good luck  :)
<dneighbo> i have the spec just havent had time some of it was i heard they wanted web
<fitzix> time for bed
<dneighbo> and then someone else mentioned they were doing it
<jcater> thx
<fitzix> :) - 'night
<dneighbo> so i put a little on back burner until i could talk to brad and got busy and didnt
<dneighbo> im totally cool with deadlines but i dont work with here is the data elements code it
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<dneighbo> thats how a hacker does it
<dneighbo> im a business analyst
<dneighbo> i want to talk to the users
<dneighbo> i want to see what they need
<dneighbo> i want to see what the needs are from them and go from there :)
<dneighbo> i just havent been able to corral brad
<dneighbo> maybe i will call him tomorrow since toyman seems to have stalled on getting postgres working for his conversion :(
<dneighbo> i actually have a semi clean plate right now so looking for what to abuse next
<dneighbo> dumb storm tore up the pool filter so had to play plumber after work 
<dneighbo> well i guess im off to bed too
Action: bkuhnIdle checked back before logging off
Nick change: bkuhnIdle -> bkuhn
<dneighbo> oh hey bkuhn
<bkuhn> dneighbo: it's fine for you to talk with the users.
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<dneighbo> i figured as much just havent gotten with you to arrange it :)
<bkuhn> dneighbo: however, we don't have a ton of time for needs analysis --- and rao has already done a good deal of needs analysis .
<dneighbo> i talked to rao some on it
<dneighbo> and some of the needs weren't full developed (i.e. the questioning needed to go further)
<bkuhn> I really invision doing something that can do some basic things, and then improving over time with more needs analysis, user wishlist s, etc.
<dneighbo> well thats  what i was thinking
<dneighbo> basic contact data
<bkuhn> the key user you should talk to is Ravi, as he is the one hurting most.
<dneighbo> then build more
<dneighbo> but he started to talk about really weird views for highly specialized tasks
<dneighbo> so felt like i was building the wrong thing
<bkuhn> plus, even though I am a hacker, I am going to be one of the primary users, too.
<bkuhn> dneighbo: what specialized tasks did he mention?
<dneighbo> not to say we cant support those things, but i was going on assumption of basic contact manager to start and build from there
<dneighbo> bkuhn: its been a while but i think i was getting into how they  would  most likely be looking at the data
<bkuhn> another big part of the system will need to be handle the transactions, including donations and purchases. 
<dneighbo> i.e. pulling up a company and trying to view the employees of that company
<dneighbo> by region
<dneighbo> by name
<bkuhn> yeah, we actually need to do such things.
<dneighbo> and how important was it to manage 'companies' as well as 'people'
<dneighbo> as stated will be able to do what ever you want
<dneighbo> its just a matter of UI layout an such to fit best how system will be used
<bkuhn> one of the biggest things Ravi needs is being able to tell the difference between "This company donates, and this is our contact there" vs. "this person donates, and they happen to work at a company"
<dneighbo> right thats what i was trying to ask about
<dneighbo> do you want to manage companies
<bkuhn> right now, we have no clue to tell the difference.
<dneighbo> and manage people
<dneighbo> and then be able to say person X belongs to company X
<dneighbo> etc etc
<bkuhn> sadly, we have to do both well.  ;)
<dneighbo> as i was thinking there would be a company form
<dneighbo> where you could change raw company data
<dneighbo> and then you could add employees/contacts of that company to it
<dneighbo> or you could view things as employees and see what company(s) they belonged too
<bkuhn> perhaps that could work, but one company can have made addresses and contact info...
<dneighbo> i actually have a form mocked up and working with postgres with the DCL contact data (iirc)
<bkuhn> we could just treat such different "divisions" as different compnaies.
<dneighbo> i have on my desk in front of me also the DCL to RAO mappings 
<bkuhn> dneighbo: cool.
<dneighbo> bkuhn: yes i was kind of thinking of doing company hierarchy as there is only one IBM
<dneighbo> but they have a pc group (er x series)
<dneighbo> main frame group (er e series) etc etd
<dneighbo> i am thinking maybe i just get the data spec completely done
<dneighbo> its REAL close
<dneighbo> have RAO review it
<dneighbo> then perhaps you all could provide me with a copy of the existing data store
<dneighbo> and i can work on pushing the data into it (unless you all would rather do that)
<dneighbo> but im thinking just looking at the data and attempting to map it on even conceptional level
<bkuhn> dneighbo: I don't have an objection to that, but we do need a way for a user-directed data cleanup.
<dneighbo> will give me MUCH greater insight as to what you are tracking
<dneighbo> and will prompt me with LOTS of questoins for RAO and RAVI about how do you see handling X
<bkuhn> dneighbo: we don't want to focus too much on what we are tracking now, becaues our whole current tracking doesn't work for what the organization needs to be doing.
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> thats actually good to know :)
<bkuhn> we have an opportunity to do it right from scratch, becaues there is really NOTHING there now.  Just a big honking text file.
<dneighbo> btw: can you please please please please pretty please
<dneighbo> let me let this thing do copyright assignment's too
<bkuhn> dneighbo: over time, we could get there.
<dneighbo> ive been using dcl for it and its MUCH nicer for me to bug poor youmans :)
<dneighbo> but all the time i get asked does so and so have assignment
<dneighbo> and i woudl love to fire up an ssh tunnel to a db
<bkuhn> dneighbo: actually, our GPL Compliance guy has a system that will grok copryight.list into an SQL databse.
<dneighbo> and open the fsf contact manager and tell them in like 10 seconds :)
<dneighbo> i think this guy might become my best friend :)
<bkuhn> dneighbo: well, there are going to be security concerns with merging these two databases.
<bkuhn> dneighbo: we have anonymous donors, etc.
<dneighbo> as you know we are well 'anal' about assignment
<dneighbo> RBAC = Role Based Access Control
<bkuhn> dneighbo: I grok that, but I am still kinda funny about it.
<dneighbo> i understand
<bkuhn> dneighbo: I'd have to be sold on how good the security is once someone has a DB handle.
<dneighbo> i dont see this as a 'general' use database
<bkuhn> anyway, this is pie in the sky at the moment -- we just need to get a donor managment system running first.  ;)
<jcater> yeah, keep it simple, guys
<jcater> one thing at a time
<dneighbo> also no reason you couldnt keep the assignment in a separate db that merely uses a key from the contact db
<dneighbo> etc etc :)
<dneighbo> jcater: im just being selfish as i get asked (me looks at jcater) does so and so have assignment we have a patch from them can i commit it :)
<dneighbo> and some days i cant find a certain someone's phone number ;)
<dneighbo> sorry im humoring myself now
<dneighbo> brad what day you getting into SF?
<jcater> maybe this is a dumb question, but why isn't a project's assignment list made available to that project?
<dneighbo> it is
<dneighbo> in copyright.list file
<dneighbo> the problem i have (this is not a gripe) is that i can only  get to that machine with a key
<dneighbo> and i only had a key setup for my laptop
<dneighbo> so if i wasnt on my laptop i couldnt get in
<bkuhn> dneighbo: we could set you up with Kerb5, too.
<dneighbo> my bad i know for not setting up the key
<dneighbo> bkuhn: i tried that early on and had issues
<dneighbo> the key isnt a problem, i just need to get off my butt and generate them and send them to proper person
<bkuhn> dneighbo: ssh-keygen -t dsa , then email it to accounts@gnu.org, GPG-signed if possible.
Action: dneighbo is still bummed i didnt plan for o'reilly conference this year :( wouldnt have worked out with work anyhow
Action: dneighbo hangs head in shame
<dneighbo> i have been too lazy to do GPG too
Action: dneighbo is a bad bad man
<dneighbo> finally all debian machines everywhere though
<dneighbo> so now life is good, and should be able to work on doing the little things like gpg :)
<dneighbo> bkuhn: jbailey was willing to install postgres somewhere over there until SAP is ready
<dneighbo> should i have him talk to you?
<bkuhn> we can probalby do it on fencepost...
<bkuhn> jbailey is clueful enough to make the right deicsions; probalby you and he could just figure out what is best.
<dneighbo> he should i hope start SAP-DB packages this weekend and perhaps have them by monday 
<dneighbo> i plan on testing them up for them and hopefully they will be there
<dneighbo> OH YEAH
<dneighbo> dcl is now in sid official
Action: dneighbo does happy dance
<nickr> yea
<nickr> that too
<bkuhn> ok, I really do need to go this time; I am on EDT time.
Nick change: bkuhn -> bkuhnIdle
<dneighbo> its the 'stable' branch (not new contacts) but certainly we could install for you guys to play with some
<dneighbo> nickr volunteered to do gnue debs
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> ok good talking to you
<dneighbo> i might try to call tomorrow on chat over weekend as i plan on attacking some of this
Action: dneighbo wanders off to lala land himself
Action: dneighbo is away: sleeping
<jcater> sleep?
<jcater> this early?
<jcater> freak!
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--- Fri Jul 19 2002