[00:21] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
MicahY ([+URF6dZFp@12-225-21-62.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hi MicahY
<MicahY> hi ajmitch
<MicahY> sorry, was playing minesweeper in another VM.  that can get addicting. :)
<MicahY> s/VM/VD/
<MicahY> not too much recent activity in NOLA this week I see
<MicahY> derek, you around?
<MicahY> I've been moving to a new place and attempting to get other work done
<MicahY> but will get back on NOLA. :)
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<dneighbo> MicahY: im here
<dneighbo> not for too long though
<ajmitch> hi dneighbo
<dneighbo> yo aj
<dneighbo> guess micah is mine sweepering
<ajmitch> i guess
<ajmitch> how are you this evening?
<dneighbo> crappy
<dneighbo> got bit by dog on wednesday and its nasty infected
<dneighbo> cant use right thumb at all
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> why didn't you put something on it yesterday?
<ajmitch> doesn't sound good
<ajmitch> hmm, chillywilly is still awake
<dneighbo> um i got bit between finger nail and it punctured
<dneighbo> so it was nearly impossible to clean
<dneighbo> i soaked in peroxide for 30 min 3 times a day for yesterday and today
<ajmitch> ugh
<chillywilly> ick
<chillywilly> that sucks big donkey dicks
<dneighbo> what is mplayer?
<dneighbo> ah a movie player
<chillywilly> yep
Action: dneighbo needs to get his dvd player working under linux
<dneighbo> sigh i need to go to bed
Action: chillywilly too
<chillywilly> night all
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "woooooosh!"
reinhard (~rm@M692P024.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
mdupont (mdupont@p5080E316.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<mdupont> morning
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise.
<mdupont> morning
<psu> hi
<mdupont> Hello,
Action: mdupont looking for a IDL3 compiler and chatting on #rdfig
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("bbl").
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
MicahY ([+URF6dZFp@12-225-21-62.client.attbi.com) left irc: "[x]chat"
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
mdupont (mdupont@p5080E316.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: "see ya"
sledge_ (~sledge@B957c.pppool.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<sledge_> hi there
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
sledge_ (~sledge@B957c.pppool.de) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/981227-pre0.9"
netmn (~SUPERSHEE@194-208-239-131.TELE.NET) joined #gnuenterprise.
<netmn> is anybody here who expierenced an error in syslog.c during compliling glibc?
reinhard (~rm@M692P024.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "No problem is so interesting that you can't just walk away from it"
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
netmn (~SUPERSHEE@194-208-239-131.TELE.NET) left irc: "server hop"
netmn (~SUPERSHEE@194-208-239-131.TELE.NET) joined #gnuenterprise.
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-64.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-64.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
Isomer (dahoose@port-62-148.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
Isomer (dahoose@port-62-157.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
Action: dneighbo is back (gone 23:34:40)
<jcater> welcome back
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> hi psu
<jcater> wassup, peeps
<psu> hi cw
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<psu> I've just this min sent a new KC to Zack 
<psu> expect it up in a few hours, 
<psu> if he is as sad as me and logged in on a Sat ;-)
<psu> s/hours/mins
<psu> turnaround time has improved muchly 
<psu> since we switched to xslt 
<psu> see, XML does cure all know evils ;-)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> now if I could get it to solve my bear gut problem, we'd be set
<jcater> s/bear/beer
<psu> bear gut? how many bears have you been eating?
<jcater> :)
<psu> rats, too slow
Action: jcater eating bear?
<jcater> with our bear market on wall street
Action: jcater thinks it's more like the bear eating me
<psu> "Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you"
<psu> jcater: do you think that your new tech notes
<psu> could/should form the basis for the 
<psu> developer docs section on website
<jcater> it could be a big part
<jcater> my thought process on the tech notes:
<jcater> it takes time for us to open up tech references using XXXX editor, figure out where something we're working on internally should go (or even if it should), and then work it into the existing structure
netmn (~SUPERSHEE@194-208-239-131.TELE.NET) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
<jcater> but I can whip up a tech note on something i am doing in 5 min or less
<jcater> which can later be put in to the tech reference properly
Action: jcater sees technotes used a lot
<jcater> plus we could put really internal stuff in there that probably has no business in a tech reference
Action: jcater is not sure whether I have to justify this or not, but just in case, there it is :)
<psu> no coder ever has to justify doing docs ;-)
<psu> or doc-like stuff anyway
<jcater> well, the argument will invariably come up
<jcater> esp. since they are simple formatted text files
<jcater> oh, wait... 
<jcater> it already has :)
Action: jcater has already been asked "why not xml?" 
<jcater> :)
<jcater> grrr
<jcater> not that I have anything against xml
<jcater> but simplicity is the key here
<jcater> i.e., literally whip up a technote in 5-10 min while still fresh in your mind
Action: psu is away: bbl
<chillywilly> cool
<nickr> just use [] for section headings, ** for bold, __ for undeline, plain ascii all the way. :)
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> wow
<chillywilly> http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html?pn=1
<nickr> You think I'm joking
<chillywilly> that was a coola rticle
<chillywilly> article
<nickr> too bad she sucks
<chillywilly> yea, but that article has man y valid points and is intelligently written
<chillywilly> I dug it anyway
<nickr> Indeed
<nickr> man, localepurge is so good
Action: chillywilly posts about "labels" to the Gufs board
<nickr> aw fuxer
<chillywilly> http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/18/1644212.shtml?tid=19
<chillywilly> eh?
<dneighbo> my point was rather than [] simply do
<dneighbo> <heading value="sometopic">
<chillywilly> hi dneighbo
<dneighbo> blah
[11:47] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<nickr> dneighbo: which is faster to type?
<dneighbo> and that literally would be like the only tag
<nickr> don't work for your computers, man, make the computers work for you!P
<dneighbo> which requires me to not write a program to translate to 40 different things
<dneighbo> which is more universal
<dneighbo> i totally see jcater's point but i will stand firm that either
<nickr> dneighbo: as soon as you translate the one into xml you're home free
<dneighbo> a. its raw text with NO rules to formatting
<dneighbo> b. if youhave formatting rules you do it with xml
<nickr> I'm proposing a tool that simply eases typing xml
<nickr> not a replacement format
<dneighbo> i havent seen the actual notes but im thinking they will probably be small/simple enough no formating is needed
<nickr> dneighbo: I shall write a demonstration program for you, because you're so annoying and ornery
<dneighbo> hmmm if that is how i need to be to get production maybe i should be so more often
<dneighbo> only request please dont do it in perl :)
<dneighbo> otherwise you will get an onery jcater going to modify it later swearing your name yelling at me why didnt nickr do this in python.....
<nickr> I'm going to write it in perl because it'll take 5 minutes in perl because thats WHAT PERL DOES
<dneighbo> though perhaps that would be just punishment to me, no?
<dneighbo> jcater: i dont know about these debian boys and obsession with automake and perl..... ;)
<nickr> GAR
<nickr> automake fucking sucks me off nightly
<jcater> dneighbo: I had intended on a)
<jcater> I see NO need for formatting in technotes
<dneighbo> hmmm if i could get automake to do that, perhaps i would like it on the same level as jeff
Action: dneighbo goes to read that automake manual again
<dneighbo> LaM: What kind of license do you think would be best for spurring growth of Linux on the desktop while also addressing the needs and desires of developers themselves?
<dneighbo> ra3vat: I choose BSD with the advertising clause. Why? It lets people steal the code. Yes. If someone is smart they can steal any code they want, GPL, BSD, even commercial code. Dis-assembling to figure out the smarts of a system isn't new. Any programmer half-smart can take any GPL code and morph it into something so unrecognizable it would be impossible to prove legally (beyond reasonable doubt) that they violated copyright. 
<dneighbo> st. I know anyone could steal my code if it was GPL - so why live in a fantasy? Accept the fact, let them steal it - just ask them to be nice and tell you they did so you at least get the satisfaction of knowing your code was of use to someone. That's my view on it. :)
<dneighbo> that ra3vat got inserted by xchat
<dneighbo> now just to play devils advocate on this position
<dneighbo> so i supose rasterman doesnt lock his door at night, or put his money in a bank, or gives his credit cards to his friends and doesnt use ssl? or pgp and such?
<dneighbo> i mean as if i apply this logic generally a suitably intelligent car thief will still my porsche REGARDLESS of the preventions i take
<dneighbo> so i might as well leave the keys in it
<chillywilly> real hackers don't need such protections ;)
<dneighbo> adn the doors unlocked
<chillywilly> everything is "common" property
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> so that when it gets stolen they dont end up breaking a window and if i get it back
<dneighbo> it wont be damaged
<dneighbo> im sorry this kind of logic just is so stale its sick someone seemingly so intelligent can think this way
<dneighbo> i.e. i have heard many good and valid arguments for why BSD
<dneighbo> i dont say i agree with them, but they are sound in logic
<dneighbo> but this just is poor logic to me
<dneighbo> am i missing something?
<chillywilly> it blows
<chillywilly> it's reminda me of arguments I have with crazymike about somking
<chillywilly> he says "hey I am going to die anyway"
<chillywilly> "people die of cancer, etc. all the time thT NEVER smoke"
<chillywilly> "people do all sorts of unhealthy things like east fast food, etc."
<nickr> dneighbo: that comparison is bullshit
<nickr> dneighbo: software isn't a physical good
<nickr> dneighbo: when someone 'steals' it they aren't 'depriving' anyone else of it
<chillywilly> "Intellectual Property"
<dneighbo> still the principle is the same
<chillywilly> you are stealing....uh....a chunk of my brain....yea...that's it stop fucking with my head ;)
<dneighbo> im not saying he has a 'loss' persay
<nickr> dneighbo: the principle IS NOT the same
<dneighbo> it is
<nickr> dneighbo: stealing physical goods deprives someone of that physical good
<dneighbo> he is saying because someone is compentent, they will take what they want
<dneighbo> no sense in fighting
<dneighbo> he does NOT specifically say he feels this way because he is losing nothing
<jcater> dneighbo: actually, when we lived in a bad neighborhood, that was our logic
<jcater> we left the car windows down
<dneighbo> in fact in his argument he states there is value
<nickr> dneighbo: stealing 'intellectual property' only allows the stealer to extend their 'rights' to it is a way the author didn't authorize
<jcater> and ours was one of few who didn't get damaged / stolen too often
<dneighbo> i guess for me though basically if you subscribe this philosphy (regardless of value) you are prescribing to anarchy (even in jcaters situation)
<dneighbo> you are saying the prevention is so hopeless that we are better with lawlessness (anarchy)
Action: dneighbo is i guess in the geek minority in this, but anarchy is imho not a good thing
<nickr> dneighbo: Effectively we live in a thinly veiled anarchy as it is, with arbirtrary rules that everyone ignores
Action: jcater wasn't arguing against you dneighbo
Action: jcater was providing a funny anecdote
Mr_You (rouzer@207.124.144.13) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<jcater> at least, looking back, I think it is funny
<dneighbo> well i have at times in my life done the same
<dneighbo> but i think if your philosphy was like mine it was different
<dneighbo> i.e. i had a vw bus and my philopshy was if they want it, let em have it and i left it unlocked
<dneighbo> BUT
<chillywilly> anarchy is bad because of people's sinful nature...it's a downward spiral
<dneighbo> taht is different than saying, they are gonna take it anyway if they want it, so i might as well let them have it
<dneighbo> imho
<dneighbo> i.e. i think the logic for BSD that says
<dneighbo> its not of any real value to me (i.e. its not physical property and they cant take my copy)
<dneighbo> so if they want it let em have it
<dneighbo> is a valid logical argument
<nickr> chillywilly: anarchy in a mutually rpsectful environment is highly effective
<chillywilly> the thing is it does not address the problem, but just gives in and/or up on it, imho
<dneighbo> but to say well they will steal it if i make GPL or prop or such anyway so i am just going to make it BSD
<dneighbo> is a defeatist philosphy to me and its highly logical
<nickr> dneighbo: I don't think they areu saying it has no real value through bsd, they are saying 'I'm giving more'
<dneighbo> sin keeps all mutual respect from happening on any real scale
<dneighbo> nickr: i was using your train of thought that said it had no value like physical property whether it has any value or not is of no element in the philosphical debate to me
<dneighbo> as its a matter of saying laws to prevent things are useful or not
<dneighbo> i.e. his subscription was that people will break copyright regardless of license therefore give them a license in which they need not have to break copyright
<dneighbo> i.e. there is no faith in copyright enforcement so why bother
<nickr> he is essentially saving thdem from breaking the law, and feeding his desire for recognition
<nickr> I don't agree with his logic, but I understand his motives.
<dneighbo> i can see why he wants to do bsd (and you state it at the end 'recognition') he clearly says that himself
<dneighbo> i just think that should be his logic
<dneighbo> not the BS about copyright wont protect me anyhow so i just will avoid it
<dneighbo> as by doing BSD he even contradicts himself as if he has no faith in copyright at all why BSD>
<nickr> well I would personally like everything to be public domain
<dneighbo> why not public domain ;)
<nickr> its too bad people don't actually care about moral example
<nickr> but it feles good to take the moral highground and say 'I trust you to give me recognition, here is my stuff, have fun'
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> btw: this channel is great
<nickr> heh
<dneighbo> is designer in cvs fixed?
<dneighbo> i.e. i want to test schema stuff
<dneighbo> and give you errors if you have time
<nickr> argh, galan is broken
<nickr> :(
<chillywilly> galan?
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<nickr> gAlan is a sequencer network builder thing
<dneighbo> that distraught its obviously some rare yet important automake extension program ;)
<nickr> http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~torbenh/
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly>  I am not able to contact Tony so I have to make my changes to galan available like this. As you can see, I consider further development on galan more important than a beautiful webpage. Well at least I have a style sheet now :-)
<nickr> its the only sequencer/network editor that I've actually been able to produce good stuff with
<chillywilly> what do you use it for?
<chillywilly> simulate networks?
<chillywilly> please excuse my ignorance
<dneighbo> simulac (formula i.e. simulated lactated milk) for infants
<dneighbo> simulated networks
<dneighbo> simulated network for network newbies?
<chillywilly> bbiab
<nickr> No
<chillywilly> Yes
<nickr> music sequencer
markoi (marko@h126n2fls21o825.telia.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> :P
<nickr> like a 909
<nickr> but whatever componants you want
<chillywilly> that was going to be my next guess
Action: psu is back
Action: chillywilly is away: lunch with scotty
<dneighbo> i thought that said potty
<dneighbo> im like lunch at the potty?
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("dinner with wife").
<nickr> ladspa rules!
<dneighbo> ladspa?
<nickr> http://www.ladspa.org/
<nickr> common filtering plugin format
<nickr> which means I'll have hundreds of plugins for gAlan!
<dneighbo> jcater: you here
<dneighbo> DB001: [DBdriver:133] Setting postgresql client_encoding to default
<dneighbo> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Designer.py", line 133, in OnWizard
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.RunWizard(wizard)
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/Designer.py", line 154, in RunWizard
<dneighbo> DB000:     instance, templateInformation).run():
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/designer/src/TemplateParser.py", line 119, in run
<dneighbo> DB000:     completed = self.template.Finalize()
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/templates/schema/Introspection.py", line 125, in Finalize
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.ModifyElement(self.root, title=self.variables['title'])
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/TemplateBase.py", line 125, in ModifyElement
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.parser.instance.onModifyObject(o, __name__)
<dneighbo> DB000: NameError: global name 'o' is not defined
<dneighbo> is what i get running schema wizard
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<jcater> um
<jcater> is everyone ignoring my "designer will be broke" comments I keep making in CVS?
<jcater> s/CVS/irc
Action: jcater is away: pizza
<dneighbo> i asked you didnt answer :)
<dneighbo> <dneighbo> is designer in cvs fixed?
<dneighbo> <dneighbo> i.e. i want to test schema stuff
<dneighbo> <dneighbo> and give you errors if you have time
fitzix (~fitzix@64.252.134.18) joined #gnuenterprise.
fitzix (~fitzix@64.252.134.18) left irc: "Client Exiting"
dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection
dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
dres_ (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
Yurik (~yrashk@195.5.1.188) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Yurik> re
Yurik (~yrashk@195.5.1.188) left irc: "Leaving"
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: jcater is back (gone 02:42:48)
Nick change: jcater -> jcAway
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 04:03:39)
<dneighbo> you eat scotty for lunch or what
<ajmitch> morning
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: heh
rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-4-64-030-076.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: chillywilly is away: family time
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Remosi (dahoose@port-62-147.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
Isomer (dahoose@port-62-157.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "woooooosh!"
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<chillywilly> where is the jcater at?
<chillywilly> jcAway just isn't enough...I need something more like jcDonutRun, for example ;)
<chillywilly> ello is anyone awake here besides kiwiboy?
<jcAway> bah
Nick change: jcAway -> jcMovieWithDonut
<jcMovieWithDonut> is that better?
<chillywilly> yes =)
<chillywilly> I must keep track of jc at all times
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> what are you doing here if you are watcing a movie?
<chillywilly> watching even
Nick change: dres_ -> dres
<Remosi> Dum-De-Dooo
Action: Remosi viciously wiki's
jhs (~jhs@cs6668105-78.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
MicahY ([V6spvb2kK@12-225-21-62.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
--- Sun Jul 21 2002