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<dneighbo> ROCK ON
<dneighbo> the bible college im considering doing online courses with makes the following statement
<dneighbo> for required software
<dneighbo> # Microsoft Word: If you do not have Microsoft Word, you can download freeware called StarOffice. It is compatible with Word 97 and 2000. The web site is: www.sun.com/staroffice  
<ajmitch> yay
<dneighbo> they appear to understand what mozilla is to a degree as well
<dneighbo> *  Recent Web browser: Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 SP1 or higher OR Netscape Explorer 4.6 or higher (Izio is not yet Netscape 6.0 compliant)  
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<ajmitch> hi
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<Arturas> Hello
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<siesel> hi all!!
<ajmitch> hey siesel
<siesel> hi ajmitch
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<ajmitch> hi clock
<clock> hello,ajmitch
<clock> all
<ra3vat> hello all
<siesel> hi ra3vat
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<ariel_> hi jan
<ariel_> siesel: why sabcmd + pgsql.xsl does'nt produce output for primary key?
<ra3vat> hi jan
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<siesel> hi jcater
<siesel> jcater: ariel_ proposed to add an  "initialdrop" attribute to <table> (boolean)  in the GSD file format.
<siesel> jcater: it would create a DROP TABLE statement before the CREATE TABLE command. what do you think?
<jcater> I'm not sure
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<siesel> i.e.  because creating tables will be handled by gnue-common (in the future)  this option won"t be needed (in the future)  because there could be a dialog opening (in designer) which ask the user if he want to keep his old tables with the old data or not.
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<siesel> hmm, seems that i  forgot to add "dots, commas, when's .."" ... trying again..
<siesel> I can imagine a future senario like that:  using designer to create a schema definition, creating tables with this schema definition, by just pressing "Create tables" button.
<siesel> i.e. designer uses a new function in common which create tables, indexes, etc.,
<siesel> if a table already exist a warning message is shown and the user can choose to between leaving this table alone, or to drop it and recreate it.
<siesel> In this case, there is no need for that "initialdrop" attribut.  right?
<jcater> well
<jcater> that's kind of the direction I was wanting
<jcater> however
<jcater> I want the common support to be smart enough
<jcater> to be able to do "alter tables"
<jcater> or give the user the option of restarting from scratch
<jcater> i.e., that will be vital for our packaging
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<siesel> hi sledge
<siesel> jcater:  yes, we need an package format and an installer soon. The installer would use gnue/common to create/modify the tables defined in a GSD file.
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<siesel> btw. it would be cool to have a package tool in designer, where you can just choose some GFD, GND, GSD and build a package.
<sledge_> hi siesel
<jcater> siesel: working on that
<sledge_> what is gnd?
<jcater> (notice the new Project menu in Designer :)
Action: jcater thinks he meant GPD (the Navigator stuff)
<sledge_> i haven't understood the task of navigator yet
<jcater> menuing
<jcater> in a nutshell
<sledge_> ah
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<sledge_> okay
<sledge_> btw, i found a small bug in designer: when changing an attribute in the property editor, a forms object looses its focus (blue border)
<jcater> ah
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<siesel> cool,  do you already have a name for the Project file type?
<jcater> no clue
<jcater> haven't thought that far out
<siesel> btw. are you already working at that grafical schema designer? :)
<jcater> .gdp? --> GNUe Designer Project file?
Action: jcater has only implemented the Wizard stuff for the schema designer
<jcater> haven't started on the graphical part
Action: siesel should give the grafical part a try and learn a bit more wxwindows :)
<siesel> . /f/ph/
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<sledge_> what do you mean with "graphical part"? ms-access like visual creation of tables with all the connected id fields?
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<jcater> sledge_: something like that
<sledge_> do you know pgaccess?
<siesel> yes
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<sledge_> i think it has a very easy and yet powerful visual designer
<jcater> yes
Action: jcater sees something like pgaccess
<jcater> only not pg-specific :0
<sledge_> right :)
<sledge_> having this with a nicer gui around it would *kick* *ass*
<dneighbo> sigh kiss apache goodbye anyone know of decent webserver?
<sledge_> what against apache?
<dneighbo> sledge_: pg_access SUCKS
<dneighbo> make it like pgadmin instead
<dneighbo> sledge_: what do i have against it
<sledge_> dneighbo: i only referred to pgaccess's visual designer, the rest is not very nice
<dneighbo> "We will announce news related to the Apache web server and Microsoft's development technology, .NET. This should be one of the biggest announcements of the conference..."
<dneighbo> this is a co-press release
Action: dneighbo reads this VERY much as Microsoft now owns apache's arse
<sledge_> whaddayamean
<dneighbo> i.e. look for a future press release saying
<dneighbo> IIS is put in grave windows ships with apache now
<sledge_> god forbid
<dneighbo> then look shortly after that for the new apache features that only work on windows
<dneighbo> then after that look for apache that only ships for windows
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<sledge_> do you think that the apache group would do such a thing ... honestly, i believe that there are quite a few people in that group which are opposed to any cooperation
<dneighbo> btw: US folks Linux is the topic of NPR's tech talk today
<dneighbo> sledge_: yes i agree they would
<dneighbo> look at their license
<dneighbo> they are NOT opposed to propreitary software in anyway shape or form
<dneighbo> or their license woudl be stronger copyleft
<sledge_> hm
<sledge_> what shall i say, i don't know, except for 
<sledge_> sigh kiss apache goodbye anyone know of decent webserver?
<reinhard> sledge_: you tried IIS?
<reinhard> j/k
<dneighbo> i might be over prognosticating
<sledge_> wine c:/windows/iis.exe 
<dneighbo> but i dont see how apache supporting a technology that ONLY works on windows is a good thing
<dneighbo> that means they are going to be doing things 'microsofts' way
<sledge_> .net is a specification, not a software
<dneighbo> and i know microsofts history in security and that scares me
<sledge_> but it still is from the biggest proprietarist out there
<dneighbo> um but the biggest guy supporting it is BAD for our community
<dneighbo> we should not be encouraging adoption of .NET
<dneighbo> unless we want microsoft to rule the internet
<dneighbo> its bad enough they currently rule the internet 'client'
<sledge_> GNU Enterprise .NET Edition *g,d&r*
<dneighbo> god forbid the rule the server
<sledge_> perhaps it isn't that evil. dotgnu is doing with .net as well
Action: jcater meant pgadmin
Action: jcater could give a rat's arse about what apache and microsoft does
Action: jcater doesn't particularly see this as a really bad thing
<jcater> nto the best thing
<jcater> but not the worst
<sledge_> pgadmin? this is *not* visual :)
<jcater> ?
<sledge_> http://www.flex.ro/pgaccess/vdesigner.gif
<dneighbo> jcater: this move isnt the problem
<dneighbo> its the 'partnership' that worries me
<dneighbo> i.e. i think this might be the first in a string of 'not the best thing' moves
<dneighbo> this is not 'apache' saying they are wanting to offer customers features tehy are asking for and so diong a .net plug in
<sledge_> dneighbo: don't worry. that'll only cause cancer. just wait and see, as long as you can't stop them :) (except you are superdneighboman)
<jcater> sledge_: I see that as something completely different than designing schemas
Action: jcater wants soemthing like that in designer as well
<dneighbo> this is microsoft collaborating with apache
<sledge_> schema == ?? i'm confused.
<jcater> table definitions
<sledge_> precisely.
<jcater> that link is of a query builder
<jcater> not of a table builder
<dneighbo> let me mock up a ui before you use what is on that image
<dneighbo> im no ui god, but that ui is horrid
Action: jcater foresees that ui being 1-2 years off :)
<sledge_> yes, but the general idea behind this graphical representation can be used for both purposes
<jcater> there are much bigger fish to gry
Action: dneighbo hates to admit for that type of screen i would mimic MS Access before anything else if i were to mimic (as its familiar to people)
<sledge_> argh
<sledge_> hey guys, not the overall GUI. pgaccess is 100% UI horror. i just mean the table design "widget"
<sledge_> it is functional and easy to understand
<sledge_> and to implement, btw ;)
Action: dneighbo has to run to work 
<jcater> yeah
Action: jcater understood what you meant, sledge_
<jcater> :)
<sledge_> okay. i'm happy now :)
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<jcater> ah
<jcater> not apache
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<jcater> but Covalent
<jcater> big difference imho
<jcater> as we've known Covalent was trying to capitalize on Apache's work
<sledge_> mv apache /dev/darkside
<jcater> I just think it important to note that Covalent != Apache Foundation
<jcater> so to say Apache is partnering with M$ is just plain incorrect
<sledge_> according to the article, it is the Apache Foundation partnering with MS
Action: jcater runs off to read the article again
<sledge_> http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/02/07/22/2334239.shtml?tid=109
<sledge_> i always didn't like their affinity to java
<jcater> well
Action: jcater STILL only sees references to Covalent
<sledge_>  whatever
<sledge_> besides, none of the projects I follow, evaluate or work with has a dependency on or need for apache
<sledge_> perhaps it only affects covalents proprietary thing
Action: jcater uses apache in passing
Action: jcater is a zope guy now :)
<sledge_> zope? has it finally become usable?
<jcater> I hope so
<jcater> I have an important site that has been live on it for a while now
<jcater> so does jamest
<sledge_> good :)
<sledge_> btw, have you ever compiled postgres manually?
<siesel> btw. did zope work with that linux kernel webserver?
Action: jcater has no desire to try a kernel-level webserver
<jcater> so I don't know
<jcater> sledge_: not in a long, long time
<jcater> (6.3 iirc)
<sledge_> well, i'll try and seen
<sledge_> then i finally have a db on my home machine :)
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<Arturas> bye
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<StyXman> hi guys
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<stbain> :(
Action: stbain weeps
<stbain> looks like the accounting dept. is pretty much set on either MAS90 or Great Plains
<jcater> gah
<jcater> Great Plains is horrid
<stbain> even though I have a working NOLA installation up and running for them to use
<jcater> we use it here
<jcater> (for now)
<StyXman> jcater: do you know anything about events?
<stbain> have you upgraded since Microsoft took it over?
<jcater> I've had an upgrade sitting on my desk for a yearh
<jcater> that I've been afraid to install
<stbain> any suggestions for last minute FUD dispellers
<stbain> they've pulled out the 'no support' one
<jcater> um
<jcater> they honestly think they'll get support for Great Plains
Action: jcater falls on the floor laughing
<stbain> I tried to combat it as best I could
<jcater> our service has sucked
<stbain> well... the accounting firm we deal with supports and sells Great Plains
<jcater> I really don't know what to say :(
Action: jcater has a willing accounting department ready to trash GP
<jcater> actually, my accounting dept came to me
<jcater> not vice versa :)
<stbain> can you cite specific reasons?
<jcater> well, in our specific case, we
<jcater> have a production database system that everything happens in
<jcater> well, GP is its own little system
<jcater> so the accountants have to duplicate a LOT of work
<jcater> to get stuff into GP
<jcater> with a free solution, 
Action: jcater can integrate as much as they'd like
<jcater> your situation may be different, though
<stbain> yah
<stbain> I work at a Rescue Mission
<jcater> StyXman: yes?
<jcater> um
<jcater> wtf
<jcater> a Rescue Mission?
<jcater> and they have money to burn
<jcater> ?
<stbain> yup
<stbain> apparently
<jcater> that's just plain sickening
<stbain> see...
<jcater> we need a GNUe Nonprofit
<stbain> the last guy who worked here was somewhat of a programmer
<jcater> that includes a linux distro set up for diskless clients
<jcater> with a database server and our accounting software preinstalled
<stbain> he got the entire operation up and running using MS Access97
<jcater> kinda like the K12Linux project
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<stbain> so now everything (accept the accounting) runs off of MS Access97
<jcater> how horrid
<stbain> ya
<stbain> their tables are starting to grow too large
<StyXman> jcater: uh, I'm trying to put some behaviour on scrollbars...
<stbain> taxing on the network
<stbain> nonetheless, the guy left without documenting any of his programs
<stbain> so now they're VERY skeptical of installing NOLA because they feel that if I leave, they'll be up a creek w/out a paddle
<stbain> s/installing/implementing/
<stbain> (it's already installed)
<StyXman> and I talked to jamest. he first said that I should put the behaviour on gfsb, but more talking lead him to say that  I should put it in the gfinstance 'multpiplexor'...
<btami> hi all
<stbain> hi btami
<jeffsw110> Already doing that type of thing here with another accting system (proprietary)
<StyXman> but I don't feel like it. I think I would put it in gfsb. and I don't understand the mechanism yet...
<StyXman> (hi btami)
<stbain> jeffsw110: doing what type of thing? replacing w/ free software? integrating?
<StyXman> he also suggested me to add a new event, but thinking about it and the way events are handled, I thought of using fireTRIGGER...
<btami> jcater: i sended a SimpleReport wizard to DCL (ticket #114)
<btami> jcater: please visit it, if you have time 
<jeffsw110> Sorry, running accting on diskless xterminals
<jeffsw110> using older 486's for the most part
<stbain> what package are you using?
<stbain> what accounting package, that is
<jeffsw110> PRISM from SDI (we're a bearing and power transmission retailer wholesaler)
<stbain> like Enron?
<jeffsw110> I want to get away from proprietary S/W
<stbain> as do I
<jeffsw110> No, machine transmissions
<stbain> ahhh... ok
<stbain> one of the problems of getting away from proprietary S/W here is that we qualify for free OS and Appserver software from Microsoft
<stbain> so when we buy a Win2K server, we buy the server and the the OS/MS SQL Server for free
<jeffsw110> the cost of free is steep..............
<jeffsw110> ............from MS
<stbain> how so?
<jeffsw110> Tied to their stuff. I have problems here with some s/w that HAS to run under IE or Excel
<stbain> well... in this case, it would be: free Win2K Server, free SQL Server, and we'd only pay for the Great Plains software
<jeffsw110> And only run MS PC's, am I right?
<jeffsw110> If they are powerful enough to run the client end........
<stbain> the PC's are all Win98SE already 
<stbain> except for mine
<jeffsw110> Ok.
<jeffsw110> Our marketing moron here wanted to go all MS, would have cost us about $50,000.
<jeffsw110> Just before the economy went down the tubes...................
<stbain> nice timing
<jeffsw110> I didn;t let it happen
<jeffsw110> thank god
<jeffsw110> Be in the bread line now
<stbain> I just started here last week... I was an outside contractor before
<stbain> no IT Officer before me
<stbain> so I've pretty much inherited the network as-is
<stbain> and we have a bread line
<stbain> hehe
<jeffsw110> I did too 3 years ago
<jeffsw110> lol
Action: stbain works at the local Rescue Mission
<jeffsw110> grew it from 3 PC's to a Linux net with 3 PCs
<jeffsw110> We outnumber them now...........
<jeffsw110> hehehe
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<stbain> someday...
Nick change: stbain -> stbain|away
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<jeffsw110> How do I default a form to show the first record in a table when it (the form) opens?
<StyXman> jeffsw110: I guess there's no way. one way is there was a trigger that is run @ form show time, but it seems to not exist...
<jeffsw110> Ok.
<jcater> StyXman: it needs to go into GFInstance
<jcater> as you need a single controller monitoring behavior
<jcater> it's next to impossible to keep track of the "current" scrollbar and catch it
<jcater> 's GFEvents exclusively
<jcater> i.e., if you have all GFScrollBars listen in on the events
<jcater> then you have to distinguish which one should actually respond
<StyXman> well, I thought there was a link between the uiobj and the gfobl, and that way the behaviour could go directly in the gfobj
<StyXman> and I have some problems cause I think I'll get some circular event launching.
<StyXman> the behaviout I want to give to the sb is to scroll the current block datasource
<StyXman> so, when the 'cursor' of the datasource changes, the sb should change, and vice versa...
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<StyXman> hi siesel 
<jcater> yes
<jcater> that's why I think you can't do it within the GFScrollbar code
<siesel> hi StyXman, hi all
<jcater> or you at least have to multiplex the request through GFInstance
<jcater> the GFDisplayHandler uses the multiplexing route
<jcater> so, there are two things you can do:
<jcater> 1) Have GFInstance handle it all (easiest)
<jcater> 2) Have GFInstance listen for the requestSCROLLBAR event and then determines which 
<jcater>   scrollbar/datasource is the current one, and directly call a method
<jcater>   of this scrollbar which then handles the logic
<jcater> but you really can't have GFScrollbar listening for the events
<jcater> as all the Scrollbars in the form would get the event
<jcater> most of the forms stuff uses #1
<jcater> but the GFDisplayHandler (keystrokes, et al) use #2
<jcater> the only reason GFDisplayHandler is different
<jcater> is that each entry widget can have a different *type* of displayhandler
<StyXman> I see in UIbutton's buttonHAndler, which is the wx's event handler for that class a call to _eventHandler instead of 'raising' a event. is this the way to go?
Action: jcater imagines UIbutton isn't the place to be looking to learn stuff
<jcater> lemme look
<StyXman> so, you would suggest I look into... ?
<jcater>       action = GFEvent('fireTRIGGER',gfObject.trigger)
<jcater> UIbutton is using events too
<jcater> UIbutton._eventHandler actually points to GFUserInterface.dispatchEvent
<StyXman> ah, and the way to 'raise' them is to call ...
<jcater> only because UIbutton doesn't have its own dispatchEvent
<jcater> search for  event.eventHandler = self.dispatchEvent
<StyXman> ahhhhh! I was browsing the code to sse, but couldn't find where eventHandler was set :)
<jcater> is it becoming clearer?
<jcater> :)
<StyXman> so, everithin'gs _a little_ clear now...
<StyXman> (don't try to write in other language with loads of caffeine on your blood system :)
<StyXman> how do I 'hook' a new listener to certain event?
<StyXman> I need to know when the datasource does something with the visible records...
<StyXman> with registerEventListeners?
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<StyXman> if so, where should I get one of those? I mean, only gfblock and gfuserinterface has those... or should I make gfscrollbar eventAware too?
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<jeffsw110> Ok, so I figured out  how to get the data to show up in a form, now, how do I get the toolbar record controls to work?
<jcater> StyXman: you will need to hook into GFBlock
<jcater> (add some code there)
<StyXman> like, doing a special event just for a ocassional scrollbar?
<jcater> probably
<StyXman> uh... ok, ack
<StyXman> jeffsw110: how did you do it?
<jeffsw110> Set Prequery to true in data source property. It gave me last record, but it's good enough for now
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<jeffsw110> Hmmmmmmmm
<psu> that was a long hmm ;-)
<jeffsw110> once I used F2 to jump to records, the record arrows work.
<jeffsw110> Do I need to set focus on something, when the form opens?
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<jeffsw110> It works. Cool
Nick change: stbain|away -> stbain
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<Chipaca> hi all
<Chipaca> I seem to be stumbling over a problem with the xml parser in gnue
<Chipaca> who's neighborhood would that be?
Action: Chipaca looks at dneighbo
<siesel> does anyone knows how to do insert in Sybase and MSSQL database?
Action: dneighbo_ looks at jcater
Action: dneighbo_ raises hand for siesel :)
Action: jcater hides
<siesel> cool.
<siesel> dneighbo: is it the same as for Postgres and Mysql plus a "GO" ?
<dneighbo_> INSERT INTO statuses VALUES('OP', 'Open', 'Y', 1)
<dneighbo_> GO
<dneighbo_> yip
<Chipaca> I'm defining stuff via entities and % entities, and I'm not getting what I should
<Chipaca> i.e. xmlproc_parse outputs a file I pass to gfcvs and it understands it, but gfcvs doesn't
<dneighbo_> INSERT INTO dcl_config (dcl_config_name, dcl_config_field, dcl_config_varchar) VALUES ('DCL_FILE_PATH', 'dcl_config_varchar', '.')
<dneighbo_> GO
<dneighbo_> would be an alternative way to do by name
<dneighbo_> siesel hope that helps
<siesel> it helps...
<Chipaca> it's not like it chokes, but I'm just not seeing anything in place of the entity i use
Action: siesel is copying data stuff from pgsql.xsl to mssql.xsl :)
<dneighbo_> writing a mssql driver for gnue ;)
Action: Chipaca wonders if there's any way to extract the parse tree from gfcvs
<Chipaca> siesel: mssql, or mysql?
<StyXman> jcater: uh, I have a little problem yet...
Action: Chipaca looks at StyXman 
<Chipaca> hi!
<StyXman> I added a method on gfblock that registers scrollbars.\
<dneighbo_> jcater: how is designer doing?
<siesel> Chipaca: both ;)
<dneighbo_> is it ready for a masta beating tonight?
<jcater> dneighbo_: well, it has a slight fever and cold spells
Action: dneighbo_ is really anxious to get that schema stuff tested
<jcater> but it's feeling somewhat better today
Action: jcater thinks the schema stuff is working now
<dneighbo_> er actually just to use it :)
<Chipaca> <!ENTITY % messages SYSTEM "messages/en.ent">%messages; 
<jcater> wtf!?!?
<Chipaca> that doesn't seem to get thru
<dneighbo_> i dont even want to knw where in gnue you are trying to use that line
<jcater> nor do I
<Chipaca> way outside, in a gfd
<dneighbo_> sigh
<Chipaca> it's xml, isn't it? that _should_ work
<dneighbo_> we are working on an official way to do language support in gfd's
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<jcater> err
<dneighbo_> i do think entities might be the proper way to do it
<jcater> I'm not sure if that logic follows thru or not
<dneighbo_> but it should be discussed
<dneighbo_> Chipaca: not necessarily
<Chipaca> jcater: that's the way the W3C guys do it
<dneighbo_> but we dont have a w3c parser
<dneighbo_> i.e. we have a custom parser for gnue that uses a w3c parser
<Chipaca> <!ENTITY % HTMLlat1 PUBLIC
<Chipaca>    "-//W3C//ENTITIES Latin 1 for XHTML//EN"
<Chipaca>    "xhtml-lat1.ent">
<Chipaca> %HTMLlat1;
<StyXman> a scroll bar created registers itself as a scrollbar for that block. then, the block, when updates, updates the scrollbars registered.
<selerius> hello all
<selerius> what is the state of development of gnue?
<Chipaca> selerius: chaotic
<dneighbo_> it might not hurt to add enitity support so that we could have i18n forms via entities and be conforming (but i dont think that it will work as of now)
<dneighbo_> selerius depends on what you are looking for
<StyXman> *but* now I'm registering uisb instead of gfsb
<dneighbo_> many things are quite usable
<selerius> i want to replace quick books
<dneighbo_> others are well chaotic :)
Action: Chipaca looks at his pretty xml
Action: Chipaca weeps
Action: Chipaca goes home
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<dneighbo_> selerius you could replace some functionality but not all probably with tools today
<dneighbo_> but you cant go and download a quickbooks replacement today
<siesel> GO GO GO MSSQL-GIRL
<dneighbo_> i.e. the tools to build business applications (the framework) is rather far along
<selerius> i really only need basic invoicing, and accounts management...the rest of the stuff is useless for me
<StyXman> so, the update process is either too specific for the userinterface...
<dneighbo_> but we havent had time to to do the applications
<dneighbo_> i have 3 people perhaps 2 more including you
<dneighbo_> that need invoicing, inventory, BOM and 'shipping' modules
<StyXman> or there should be something more generic... hmmm, I guess I'll do some hacks and come back
<dneighbo_> i have existing windows application that does this well now
<dneighbo_> i think making a gnue version of it wouldnt take long
<dneighbo_> it would not do accounting though, but woudl do invoicing reconcilation and such
<dneighbo_> and you could create files to load into an existing accounting system
<dneighbo_> if i have enough folks interested 
Action: psu thinks that sounds like a job for Integrator/Reporter
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<StyXman> hi chillywilly !
<jcater> incidentally, I'm accepting patches for the visual editor of schemas in designer :)
<jcater> btami sent me the first Report wizard !!!!
Action: jcater hasn't played with it yet
<chillywilly> hello StyXman
<chillywilly> hi jc
<ajmitch> morning
<chillywilly> hi ajmitch
<chillywilly> hello all
Action: siesel wants to contribute a very important part to that visual editor... 
<ajmitch> yay
<siesel> but I think I have to wait a bit to add my VERY important "change background color" patch ;)
Action: ajmitch wants that!!
<ajmitch> oh that'd be so hot, siesel!
<ajmitch> ;)
<siesel> I would prefer PINK and Yooouuuu? j/k
<ajmitch> rofl
<nickr> hot pink
<ajmitch> gray is so boring tho
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<nickr> need to add gradient support
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<ajmitch> it's lots easier to support single colours
Action: ajmitch looks up the wxpython docs
<nickr> yea
<nickr> but
<nickr> c'mon
<ajmitch> i know, i know
<nickr> ONE colour is so boring
<nickr> thousands of colours is where its at
<jcater> change background color?
<jcater> wtf?
<ajmitch> jcater: yeah, some people don't like gray
<jcater> was that a joke?
<chillywilly> it did involve rofling
<jcater> yes, gray is boring
<ajmitch> i dunno, but it probably wouldn't be hard to do :)
<jcater> that's why I prefer grey
<StyXman> bye peop.
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<nickr> jcater: you are entirely too boring
<nickr> jcater: you should be full of life like siesel 
<ajmitch> ooh, there's a wxWindow.SetBackgroundColour method
<nickr> beauty
<ajmitch> just let 'colour' (or color if you prefer) to be an optional attribute of the form 
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<nickr> but if you wa;nt other colours shouldhn't you use a local theme for your widget set like gtk or winders or whatever
<ajmitch> yeah, but how do you get wxp to pick up those colours?
<nickr> shounldn't it pick up whatever colours the native widgets are using?
<ajmitch> it should, i guess
<chillywilly> yea, backgroud color is such a critical feature
<ajmitch> but what if i want white forms for an app?
<chillywilly> ;P
<ajmitch> chillywilly: it is!
<chillywilly> uh, no
<nickr> ajmitch: in the case of white forms, I can see the ulitily
<ajmitch> these UI enhancements win over the stupid users & management ;)
<ajmitch> chillywilly: you think like a developer too much
<chillywilly> make it work first then make it pretty ;)
<nickr> can I get that in cornflower blue?
<ajmitch> nickr: i'm sure you can
<ajmitch> hey, if you can get pretty forms in access, why not GNUe? ;)
<nickr> I need forms to look just like paper forms
<siesel> my ES*  wants a "background with pink flowers on green"   * ask Sigi Freud
<nickr> like in Filemaker
<ajmitch> nickr: agreed
Action: jcater runs away screaming
<jcater> next /me fears ppl will want semi-transparent forms
<ajmitch> ooh, that'd be nice!
<dneighbo_> actually at one time we discussed being able to take a .eps file or such
<dneighbo_> and having it be the 'background' for a form
<chillywilly> so you could have like a logo watermark looking backgroud?
<jcater> yeah, but thank god y'all sobered up
<ajmitch> yeah, how about optional pics in forms? :)
<dneighbo_> jcater: i still think its a separate product
Action: jcater only foresees one pic in forms
<jcater> and that's a goat
<chillywilly> where's the graphs ans such, I want embedded charts, etc. ;)
<chillywilly> s/ans/and/
<dneighbo_> chillywilly thats reporter
<nickr> dneighbo_: that'd be cool
<jcater> chillywilly: reporter and navigator
<nickr> dneighbo_: although it'd be better if it could just format the forms to look like paper
<jcater> err, what dneighbo_ said
<ajmitch> chillywilly: hmm, now that's an idea - how'd you do it cross-platform?
<jcater> nickr: college rule or wide rule?
<dneighbo_> selerius anyhow i was trying to say before i got interrupted here
<chillywilly> yea, but can we embed reports in the forms?
<ajmitch> jcater: ooh, html reports in a wxHtml window within a form? ;)
<dneighbo_> if i have enough people seriously needing a solution and WILLING to COMMIT to using GNUe
<chillywilly> hmmm
<ajmitch> (for the wx ui driver, that is)
<psu> chillywilly: navigator?
<dneighbo_> i'd be much more apt to really start digging in
<selerius> i would love to help out in anyway i can
<jcater> so, what you are saying is you could apt-get into it?
<chillywilly> I don't get what navigator does
<dneighbo_> definitely
<selerius> i need to get rid of quick books bad
<jcater> chillywilly: it navigates
<ajmitch> chillywilly: navigator rocks
<chillywilly> gee thanks
<psu> chillywilly: well, it just launches forms, reports etc
<dneighbo_> jcater: it segfaults sometimes too
<siesel> and navigator has pictures :)
<psu> menu type thing
<dneighbo_> j/k it actually hasnt on me yet (knock on wood)
<psu> screenshots on website
<jcater> dneighbo_: well, everyone needs a break sometimes, even navigators
<chillywilly> I saw the screenshots
<ajmitch> but forms still open in separate windows :)
<ajmitch> chillywilly: now try the app!
<chillywilly> just seemed like a tree thing
<jcater> ajmitch: give us time
<chillywilly> ajmitch: bite me
<ajmitch> jcater: or give you patches?
<jcater> yes
<ajmitch> dneighbo_: i want email1
<psu> someone was suggesting an alternative layout
<jcater> that's my rally call
<jcater> "Give me time or give me patches!!!!"
Action: ajmitch would probably give patches in cases like that
<psu> with the forms/reports as tabs w/in the window
<jcater> in the tune of Give me liberty...."
<ajmitch> psu: yeah, that's what i'm thinking
<chillywilly> or give me death ;)
<jcater> psu: I foresee supporting such a layout
Action: psu would give time if he had any spare
Action: chillywilly pleads for death
<jcater> patches are always welcome
Action: jcater troutslaps chillywilly
Action: ajmitch will look this afternoon after uni
<chillywilly> bah, I am immune to those jcater
<psu> ISTR we discussed that as "skinning" Navigator
<jcater> ISTR?
<jcater> what's that fancy lingo?
<nickr> I need to get rid of Filemaker badly
<ajmitch> psu: yeah, at the moment you can use different UI drivers & skin it that way
<psu> I seem to remember
<jcater> nickr: format c: /u
<nickr> no such luck!
<selerius> is anything tied specifically to the linux kernel?
<jcater> selerius: NO!
<nickr> yes
<ajmitch> nickr: eh?
<selerius> i do not run linux, and do not intend to....do not like it very much
<dneighbo_> selerius we are entirely neutral on about everything
<ajmitch> selerius: ah, a GNU/Hurd fan then? ;)
<psu> GNUe runs on GNU/Linux, 
<dneighbo_> ui : www, windows, mac, linux, bsd, dumb terminal, palm, telephone you name it
<ajmitch> dneighbo_: hehe, right, most people here are neutral, you mean
<psu> Win 32, Solaris
<selerius> more BSD Unix...in particular OpenBSD...i run it on most everything
<psu> Mac OS
<dneighbo_> database: mysql, postgres, sapdb you name it
<jcater> selerius: no problem running on OpenBSD
<jcater> iirc everything you need is in ports
<dneighbo_> rpc: xml-rpc, corba, soap
<selerius> good....
<psu>  /msg dneighbo methinks we just found ourselves an OpenBSD tester
<dneighbo_> reporting: pdf, office, open office, html 
<psu> oops
<siesel> btw. its the "Single Login" feature which makes Navigator break, so we need to use that "netrc" patch or hack up forms to create a version which can be emebeded and don't create new MAINLOOPS. 
<jcater> donuts: glazed, cake, chocolate, cream, lemon
<selerius> i can test for you if you like...i runn --current...update nightly
<dneighbo_> i.e. generally one gets a hand slap around here if they do non neutral things
<psu> donuts: *
<selerius> do you need a graphical environment to test in?
<dneighbo_> we do have preferences though :)
<dneighbo_> os: Debian GNU/Linux
<selerius> i have a spare dual 333 machine, with a 10 gig SCSI array in it laying around..
<dneighbo_> db: SAP-DB (currently Postgres, but changing slowly)
<chillywilly> jcater: was that a hint for me?
<jcater> chillywilly?
<chillywilly> jcater: you haven't been readin thekitchensink.odl have you ;)?
<jcater> no
<jcater> I saw the commit messages, tho
<nickr> pizza!
<chillywilly> check out
<dneighbo_> ui: wx (for now)
<jcater> wtf is thekitchensink.odl?
<chillywilly> class Jcater extends Goat...
<chillywilly> and example file
<jcater> implements donuteater
<chillywilly> for the parser
<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> class Jcater extends Goat: CodeSlave {...};
<chillywilly> or something
Action: ajmitch wonders where the pdf, openoffice, etc stuff is for reports
<chillywilly> suppose I could make a DonutEater interface, but I think I've added enough to that file... ;)
Nick change: psu -> psuZZZZ
<jcater> openoffice is supported via merge_rtf
<ajmitch> ah ok
<stbain> dneighbo: you gonna be around for a while?
Action: jcater is doing one of those reports right now
<jcater> or, one of my guys is
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<dneighbo_> um he left before i could say will be here for 3 more hours at least
<dneighbo_> one of what reports?
<dneighbo_> btw: open office rtf works
<dneighbo_> jcater: should i submit a bug report on the fact that rtf freaks a bit if you have table as first item?
<ajmitch> how about pdf?
<dneighbo_> i think you were looking for other
<dneighbo_> ajmitch not yet
<dneighbo_> this is 'mail merge'
<ajmitch> dneighbo_: ok
<dneighbo_> i dont think we could ever do pdf mail merge directly
<jcater> dneighbo_: authorization forms that we send to publishers
<jcater> well, not directly
<jcater> but look at Ted
<dneighbo_> probably more you have a document
Action: ajmitch is looking for something to use for small business invoicing
<jcater> it's an RTF editor
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<jcater> that can print to postscript from the command line
<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<dneighbo_> then we coudl convert to pdf post merge for you
<reinhard> hey all
Action: dneighbo_ rubs eyes
<reinhard> i guess most of you noticed that woody has become stable 
<ajmitch> yes
<dneighbo_> is that reinhard, reinhard muller?
<jcater> yeah
<reinhard> dneighbo_ :)
<dneighbo_> only an austrian is interested in a stable woody (bad pun)
<reinhard> did somebody also notice that woody still contains geas-0.0.6?
Action: dneighbo_ is thinking of arnold prouncing around with his accent 'i've got a stable woody'
<reinhard> dneighbo_: lol
<ajmitch> reinhard: it's been frozen for quite awhile
<dneighbo_> now that is really BAD pun
<dneighbo_> a frozen woody that is ;)
<jcater> well
<jcater> better than an unstable woody
<jcater> that's what I always say
Action: ajmitch goes away to uni now :)
<dneighbo_> ha the kiwi's cant handle us anylonger muhahahahhahaha
<ajmitch> :P
<chillywilly> that's pretty sad, imho
<reinhard> chillywilly: yes
<reinhard> i wrote a mail to the one who packaged it
<reinhard> some _months_ ago
<reinhard> requesting to remove it again
<reinhard> dneighbo_: what is a frozen woody?
<chillywilly> well I meant that the kiwis can't handle us
<reinhard> chillywilly: oh
<chillywilly> but yea old crusty geas is sad too ;)
<dneighbo_> a frozen woody i woudl imagine would be painful
Action: dneighbo_ notes woody is US slang for an 'erect penis'
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> so frozen woody == chilly willy ?
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo_> roflmao
<chillywilly> now you know why I am so unhappy and cranky
<chillywilly> you try going around all day with a chilly willy
<chillywilly> ;)
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<siesel> jcater: do you have a idea about solving that navigator SEGFAULTS problem?
<reinhard> just for the record i believe that backgruond color in forms _could_ be useful but in another context
<reinhard> e.g. i have clients that have set up a live database and a testing database
<reinhard> and they have requested that if they log into the testing database then the background should turn into red
<reinhard> but of course i don't see it as a priority
<reinhard> night all
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<siesel> reinhard: do you ... :(
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<Mr_You> re
<Mr_You> hope everyone is well
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<chillywilly> anyone know if it is legal to declare a struct (in C or IDL) like this: struct Foo {int a, b, c;float x;}; ?
<chillywilly> this struct would have 4 members right?
<Mr_You> oops
<Mr_You> dunno if thats legal
<Mr_You> probably
<Mr_You> looks good heh
<chillywilly> well according to the EBNF of ODL it is legal
<Mr_You> bbl
<Mr_You> gonna go for a quick hike
<chillywilly> a quickie eh?
<chillywilly> ;)
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<siesel> how can I do a call by reference in python?
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<ajmitch> hi again
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<chillywilly> siesel: I thought everything was a reference in python
<siesel> no, seems to be that function parameters are transfered 'call by value'
<chillywilly> how do you know?
<siesel> a book told me.
<chillywilly> [19:04:41] <ameoba> chilly : it's all by reference... just some objects are immutable.
<chillywilly> from #python
<ajmitch> function params are call by ref
<chillywilly> I am pretty sure it is al call by ref
Action: ajmitch has used that a lot
<chillywilly> a/al/all/
<siesel> hmmm, possibly I should burn that book :)
<ajmitch> i think everythin is an object in python, right?
<chillywilly> well if you were to pass someString = "foo
<chillywilly> "
<ajmitch> or are the 'primitives' not?
<chillywilly> that is immutable
Action: ajmitch knows you can do "foo sidjd".split()
<siesel> btw. you can create schema files out of gfd's now.
<ajmitch> yay
<chillywilly> it scans the datasource info?
<chillywilly> yanks it out
<siesel> just do gfdes myfile.gfd and choose Tools/AddOns/CreateSchema
<siesel> cW:yes
<siesel> just the scan for masterlink/detaillink is missing
Action: chillywilly was making cml markuop for ODL, but then I ate dinner and watched some TV...and I have to pack for my trip
<chillywilly> er, xml
<ajmitch> trip?
Action: chillywilly is going on vacation
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> ah
<chillywilly> to North Carolina with caroline to visit family
<ajmitch> good rid^H^H^Hbye
<chillywilly> :'(
<Mr_You> cool chilly
<ajmitch> don't worry chillywilly
<ajmitch> by the time you get back, we'll have a nice smelly trout :)
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> I was hoping to finish the parser
<chillywilly> before I have to go
<ajmitch> ah well
<chillywilly> we'll see if that happens
<ajmitch> you've still got time
<chillywilly> otherwise jan can finish it if he wants ;)
<chillywilly> I am leaving thrusday morning
<chillywilly> thursday even
<chillywilly> won't be back until the 2nd of August
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<chillywilly> so if you notice that I am not here, you can breathe easy as I will still be alive ;)
<ajmitch> we'll notice? :)
Action: chillywilly contemplates bringing the laptop
Action: chillywilly writes that off quickly
<Mr_You> work on GEAS or somethin ;-)
<Mr_You> appserver heh
<chillywilly> well that's what I have been trying to do for a while now
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> the "parser" is the ODL parser for the appserver
<chillywilly> btw, writing xml by hand blows ;)
<Mr_You> yah
Action: chillywilly is just procrastinating as packing sucks ;)
<siesel> chillywilly: wish you nice trip :)
<siesel> night
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<dneighbo> yummy power outage
<nickr> wee
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--- Wed Jul 24 2002