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<dneighbo> where o where did all the peoples go :)
<ajmitch> hi dneighbo
<dneighbo> sup
<ajmitch> not much :)
<dneighbo> sigh its late i have to go to dentist in the am (yuck)
<dneighbo> night
Action: dneighbo is away: sleep
<ajmitch> night
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<ariel_> jcater: are you there?
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<Arturas> Hello
<ariel_> hi Arturas
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<siesel> hi all
<ajmitch> hey siesel
<ariel_> hi siesel
<ariel_> siesel: i patched my pgsql_2.xsl such that also the constraints are generated inside the CREATE TABLE command.
<ariel_> to send it?
<ajmitch> hi ariel_
<ariel_> hi ajmitch
Action: ajmitch waits for siesel to return...
<ariel_> can someone help me with reports?
Action: ariel_ is away: busy
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Action: ariel_ is back (gone 00:26:26)
<siesel> hi ariel_
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> GNURPC API
<siesel> it is important to split the API in different implementation levels
<siesel> like level 1: no object, just remote method execution
<ajmitch> 1 is reasonably simple to implement
<siesel> (should be able to implement in all languages)
<siesel> level 2: object support via proxy objects, but proxy objects just contain an execute("name","params") method and a "get" "set" method
<ajmitch> we should define remote calls to other implementations, for getting lists of methods, etc
<siesel> level 3: object support via fully transparent proxy objects, which catch all executed methods and send it over to the remote object
<ajmitch> since this should be able to work over multiple transports
<siesel> (in python: using __call__)
<siesel> yes, this would be a kind of introspection function which should be added to the API
<ajmitch> asked in #mono, for C# i'll probably need to build proxy objects using Reflection.Emit, which outputs IL (sort of like meta-assembly)
<ajmitch> it was basically the same idea as i had
<ajmitch> a similar way would be done with php - generate code & cache it for the lifetime of the object
<siesel> i.e. Reflection.Emit is a kind of the python "compile" command
<ajmitch> except you need to write the IL code in :)
<siesel> oh, good look, writing IL :)
<ajmitch> shouldn't be too much of a challenge to write some simple templates to pass method calls onto the transports
<ajmitch> however for GNUe, since we have the beautiful python to use, it's much much simpler ;)
<ajmitch> Seek3r basically said that after this phpgw branch is stabilised it could be version 1.0, and a more structured project will be born that makes the phpgwapi more accessible
<ajmitch> apps will be composed of a backend & a frontend UI - so GNUe will be able to talk to the apps quite nicely
Action: ajmitch wants to see DCL GNUe-ised, with all trigger code implemented in the appserver
<ajmitch> so we should _really_ work in with him as well, if possible
Action: ajmitch pours siesel some caffiene to get him back 
<siesel> you don't have cappucino, have you?
<ajmitch> no, i don't sorry
Action: ajmitch needs some at this hour :)
<siesel> I've talked a bit about defining object types with seek3r.
<ajmitch> ah, the night is young, might as well try & get some stuff done :)
<ajmitch> great
<ajmitch> i haven't had a chance to talk to him much yet
Action: ajmitch wants a transport tailored for the Hurd ;)
Action: siesel is at university (work), but the boss is away :)
<ajmitch> ah...
<ajmitch> what do you do at uni
<siesel> a bit server administration, a bit private help desk. a bit lend out books 
<ajmitch> the Hurd is built on IPC provided by the underlying microkernel - it would be nice to write something for that :)
<ajmitch> (even if it was just proof-of-concept)
Action: ajmitch sees he will have 4 GNU/Hurd cds to upload sometime this week
<siesel> you're building the HURD CDs?
<ajmitch> no, a friend here builds them
Action: ajmitch will help him soon
<ajmitch> at the moment i just upload them for him
<ajmitch> since 33.6kbps uploads are not healthy ;)
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<ajmitch> hi stbain
<stbain> good morning
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<siesel> what is the status of that forms/samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd form?
<jamest> ew
<jamest> that's a derek form that was created long ago
<jamest> i think it still works but IIRC the data model he had to wrap around was fugly
<jamest> s/data model/pre-existing data model/
Nick change: stbain -> stbain|away
<siesel> I think some parts are quite usable, but I can't test it, because the triggers are broken.
<siesel> there are parts like:
<siesel> blckEmail.helper.object.nextRecord()
<siesel> which looks quite strange.
<siesel> do you know how I can call the nextRecord function now?
<ajmitch> hi jamest
<jamest> i don't think you can w/o source code modifications
<jamest> as that was digging into the forms internals via a trigger which is now block IIRC
<ajmitch> jamest: btw, i can open forms in the current dir with navigator if i do "./form.gfd" but not "form.gfd"
<ajmitch> just fyi :)
<jamest> navigator won't work w/ form.gfd but will work with ./form.gfd in the gpd file?
<ajmitch> for loading from the current dir, yes
<jamest> siesel: that strangeness is IIRC due to the data structre, IIRC that data was hyper-normalized just like you're taught in class
<jamest> siesel: which doesn't work in the real world in most cases IMHO :)
<ajmitch> since without the "./" it seems to just search in the default forms path
<siesel> if there is no ./ before form.gfd it looks for that file in ~/gnue/forms
<ajmitch> siesel: if your gnue is set to load from there, then yup :)
<siesel> there should be a setting for that in gnue.conf
<siesel> but I think we should change it to search in local dir AND default forms path 
<ajmitch> which is why i'm complaining (i can change it if you'd like)
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> just wanting to know what the suggested behaviour should be
<jamest> i think i'd like that too
<jamest> so I could test new forms in the std navigator menu by just cd'ing to dir holding new forms and running std navigator
<siesel> jamest: at the moment GFBlock just expose gotoRecord, newRecord and clear,  do you think that adding nextRecord, prevRecord, deleteRecord would break anything?
Action: ajmitch hacks UIwxpython.py
<jamest> it shouldn't as long as you use the arrays in there to extend the trigger namespace
Action: jamest thinkgs that sounded confusing
Action: siesel isn't too confused (because he found these arrays :)
<ajmitch> siesel: seek3r is online now
Action: siesel needs some caffeine
Action: ajmitch wonders how to handle this in navigator - currently if the os.path.basename(step.location) == step.location, it assumes that the form is in the FormDir
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<Arturas> hi again :)
<ajmitch> hey Arturas
Action: ajmitch will check if it exists in current dir first
<ajmitch> hmm that was just too easy
Action: ajmitch emails navigator-support
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<btami> hi all!
<ajmitch> hi btami
<btami> ajmitch hi
<btami> is siesel around?
<ajmitch> he was before
<ajmitch> like 40min ago
<btami> i hacked a basically working TreeView.py for designer/reports
<ajmitch> great!!
<btami> i'm sending it to jan in e-mail
<jamest> treeview?
<btami> please tell him if you comes
<ajmitch> siesel: yo, you have patches waiting! :)
<btami> 'Object Navigator'
<jamest> wow
<ajmitch> sounds very nice
<jamest> you know licencing amazes me
<ajmitch> how so?
<Arturas> Hi Bajusz
<jamest> To buy a copy of Office XP you have to pay extra to get the option of upgrading it later
<btami> hi Arturas, jamest
<ajmitch> ah yes
<jamest> that's nuts
<ajmitch> jamest: btw nav patch should be in dcl
Action: jamest is making case for OpenOffice/Linux replacements for all main office PCs
<Arturas> jamest: that's why i just love Lithuania - you can get any CD for ~$4 :)
<jamest> w/ win4lin netraverse server running Win98 for backwards compatibility
<Arturas> (for home use only, of course)
<jamest> grep -v warezTalk irc-logs
<jamest> well my win98 users don't seem to grasp "Don't install software on these systems without permission and without licenses"
<jamest> they always say "ok"
<ajmitch> that's why i love free software - you don't need to worry about these hassles :)
<jamest> which translates to - "As soon as you leave I'll do whatever the hell I want with software I bring in from the web and from home"
<ajmitch> that must be a real hassle
<jamest> people solutions dont work
<jamest> ext3 file permissions will work :)
<Arturas> you have then to go, search for that software and uninstall it?
<Arturas> maybe it would be simplier to restore whole partition from some image? (it's only idea - i don't know what is easier)
<siesel> jamest: I saw a system (win98), which was configured to not allow any installations of new programms by pol files.
<ajmitch> siesel!!
<btami> hi siesel
<Arturas> siesel: they love you :)
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<siesel> sorry, someone came in and I had to work.
<siesel> I hope its only platonic love :)
<jamest> siesel: yeah, I've done that in lab settins
<jamest> the problem there is it's like trying to plug the holes in a sponge
<jamest> the default security policy is "allow mad goat rape"
<siesel> but it seems that the users don't like it, because now they have changed to completely open system again.
<siesel> Do you've heard about that secure laptop something project which is a win98 running on a secured filesystem by an underlaying linux + vmware system
<btami> siesel: i just sended a TreeView.py for designer/reports in e-mail to you
<btami> please try it, if you have time
<josejavier_work> hi all, i'm looking for a tool to make programs like accounting software, my question is, is gnuenterprise manure enough to do this kind of programs?
<josejavier_work> manure=mature
<jamest> i think you had it right the first time
<ajmitch> hehe
<siesel> btami: I will try it tonight, thx.
<ajmitch> there's some accounting software being done in it currently
<btami> siesel: i can't try your schema stuff, i get:assert "wxFalse" failed:wxPaintDC may be created only in EVT_PAINT handler!
<siesel> btami: which wxPython version are you using?
<ajmitch> night all, i'm in need of sleep
<siesel> night
<btami> 2.3.3pre2u
<btami> on WinXP
<siesel> hmmm, can you try to change wxPaintDC into wxMemoryDC ?
<jamest> josejavier_work: gnue could do accounting but it's very much a work in progress
<josejavier_work> thanks jamest
<jamest> i'd love to see you work with it but I don't want to give impression it'll be easy at this time
<jamest> i'm sure you'll find things that are missing, need improved, etc, etc
<siesel> btami: you should change line 72 into  dc = wxMemoryDC() 
<siesel> its in designer/src/schema/VisualEditor.py
<dneighbo> sigh
<dneighbo> why does next record keep disappearing?
<dneighbo> i added it back i could swear like a month ago
<josejavier_work> i think this is a very interesting project, an i would like to contribute, my 'probably' next project will be for a company that have like 12 drugs shops, i was thinking on php, but gnuenterprise looks more interesting
<dneighbo> siesel: before you do too much work i had (as of a month ago a WORKING contact_manager.gfd file)
<dneighbo> just not in GNUe :)
<dneighbo> for some fsf stuff
<siesel> dneighbo: cool. could I have a look at it :)
<jamest> holding out on us eh?
<dneighbo> sigh piss moan its on savannah but you cant readily bbrowse cvs there
Action: jamest grabs the thumb shackels and heads toward dneighbo
<dneighbo> and i dont have all my 'keys' setup up so i cant get cvs from there
<siesel> *sigh*
<dneighbo> let me look for a second
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Action: dneighbo is back (gone 08:16:28)
<jcater_> long nap
<dneighbo> donuts mmmmmm
<dneighbo> jamest: if you are here can you help on a savannah issue?
<dneighbo> i cant seem to get cvs via ssh 
<dneighbo> sigh can anyone use ssh to get at gnu cvs stuff?
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<jcater_> yes
<dneighbo> i put my public key on savannah a LONG time ago and it is indeed there
<dneighbo> but if i try to use cvs it prompts me for a password
<dneighbo> what is odd is my user for savannah is dneighbors
<dneighbo> my user at home is dneighbo
<dneighbo> im wondering if that might be the issue as my 'key' says dneighbo
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ alias FSF_CONTACT_CVS="export CVSROOT=":ext:dneighbors@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/"; export CVS_RSH=ssh"
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ FSF_CONTACT_CVS 
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ cvs -z3 co contacts
<dneighbo> dneighbors@subversions.gnu.org's password: 
<dneighbo> i get that whether i use dneighbo or dneighbors@subversions
<siesel> hmmm, this shouldn't be a problem, because my "home" name is jan, but savannah login is siesel
<dneighbo> even if i cut and paste their instructions
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ export CVS_RSH=ssh
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ cvs -z3 -ddneighbors@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/ co contacts 
<dneighbo> dneighbors@subversions.gnu.org's password: 
<dneighbo> grrr i hate ssh key stuff and fsf(seems there are always issues
<jcater_> dneighbo: try CVS_RSH="ssh -1"
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ export CVS_RSH="ssh -1"
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ cvs -z3 -ddneighbors@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/ co contacts 
<dneighbo> cvs [checkout aborted]: cannot exec ssh -1: No such file or directory
<dneighbo> cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ 
<jcater_> err
<jcater_> what is the contents of your ~/.ssh/config file?
<dneighbo> i dont have one
<jcater_> create one
<jcater_> and put the single line:
<dneighbo> BUT in /etc/ssh/ssh_config
<jcater_> Protocol 1
<dneighbo> i put
<dneighbo> Host subversions.gnu.org
<dneighbo>    Protocol 1
<jcater_> well, humor me and let's try ~/.ssh/config
Action: jcater_ is trying all the angles he knows
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/.ssh$ pwd 
<dneighbo> /home/dneighbo/.ssh
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/.ssh$ less config 
<dneighbo> Protocol 1
<dneighbo> right?
<jcater_> ya
<jcater_> also, did you upload your "identity.pub" file, or another key?
<jcater_> err, you need to reset your CVS_RSH :)
<dneighbo> uploaded identity.pub
<dneighbo> i just compared it to what savanah has on file
<dneighbo> they look the same
<jcater_> are you positive there's no line breaks on savannah's copy?
<dneighbo> slightly different
<dneighbo> dneighbo@aegagrus:~/cvs$ cvs -z3 -ddneighbors@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/ co contacts 
<dneighbo> The authenticity of host 'subversions.gnu.org (199.232.41.2)' can't be established.
<dneighbo> RSA1 key fingerprint is 66:f4:9a:7e:e3:a8:c5:16:d1:88:aa:ef:3e:06:75:30.
<dneighbo> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
<dneighbo> Warning: Permanently added 'subversions.gnu.org,199.232.41.2' (RSA1) to the list of known hosts.
<dneighbo> Enter passphrase for RSA key '/home/dneighbo/.ssh/identity': 
<jcater_> ok
<jcater_> this is good
<dneighbo> i dont recall a passphrase for this?
<jcater_> oh, crap :)
<jcater_> that's a whole different problem
<dneighbo> yummy it works :)
<jcater_> ok
<dneighbo> if i enter my USER password for this machine
<dneighbo> at the identity passphrase it snarfs things
Action: dneighbo still wants to know why changing /etc/ssh/ssh_config didnt work
<dneighbo> reinhard: protocol 1
<jcater_> what are your permissions on that file?
<jcater_> as I know with a lot of files, if ssh doesn't approve of the permissions, it will ignore them
<jcater_> dneighbo: also
<jcater_> in your /etc/ssh/ssh_config file
<jcater_> is the Host subversions.gnu.org before the Host * ?
<jcater_> As the manual says this:
<jcater_>      For each parameter, the first obtained value will be used.  The configu-
<jcater_>      ration files contain sections bracketed by ``Host'' specifications, and
<jcater_>      that section is only applied for hosts that match one of the patterns
<jcater_>      given in the specification.  The matched host name is the one given on
<jcater_>      the command line.
<jcater_>      Since the first obtained value for each parameter is used, more host-spe-
<jcater_>      cific declarations should be given near the beginning of the file, and
<jcater_>      general defaults at the end.
<jcater_> just curious
Action: dneighbo slaps self
<dneighbo> swears a bit
<dneighbo> and kicks the computer
<dneighbo> i hate order of precedence!
<dneighbo> siesel: you still around?
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/contacts.tar.gz
<dneighbo> is a more up to date contact manager
<dneighbo> im pretty sure a month or so ago it was working
<dneighbo> (er around 0.3.0) 
<dneighbo> i could swear the next/prev was working thne
<dneighbo> i hope to work on this some tonight
<dneighbo> and then merge changes softly back into the samples directory
<dneighbo> and jcater i got the LIST of copyright from youmans
<dneighbo> so i will add the 'assignment' status back in
<dneighbo> and load up the GNUe Contact db on ash :) so we can get at it via ssh tunnels
<dneighbo> dentist cancelled with technical failure ;)
<dneighbo> the 'pumps' are down
<dneighbo> i should go to work though
<dneighbo> jcater: many props bbs
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<siesel> btw: under a localized environement: LANG=de_DE@euro i get this error:
<siesel> DB000:     self.borderPercentage = (float(gConfig('borderPercentage')) / 100)
<siesel> DB000: ValueError: invalid literal for float(): 100.0
<siesel> is it ok, if I change the default for borderPercentage to 100 instead of 100.0
<jcater_> that's only prolonging other issues
Action: jcater_ doesn't care
<ra3vat> siesel: LC_NUMERIC=C gfdes - as workaround
<siesel> hmmm, we should change that, or better add a Question+Answer to our FAQ
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<Arturas> bye
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<srobertson> morning everyone, anyone mind if a newbie asks some dumb questions?
<nickr> I'm sorry, I think we only accept smart questions
<srobertson> :) just being honest
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<srobertson> I'm actuall confused on how you would run some of the packages, like the supply-chain management. or are they still to early in development?
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<reinhard> srobertson: the actual packages are _way_ too early in development
<reinhard> what is quite usable now is the tools
<reinhard> like forms, reports etc.
<reinhard> however appserver is still at the very beginning of development
<dneighbo> we have three 'applications' that are somewhat functional 
<reinhard> and the packages would heavily depend on a working appserver :)
<dneighbo> that are getting converted to the framework
<dneighbo> DCL - Project Management / Bug Tracking
<dneighbo> NOLA - Accounting (Small Business ERP)
<nickr> NOLA is part of Gnue now?
<nickr> wow
<dneighbo> Bayonne - Telephony Application Server (actual tool of )
<dneighbo> nickr no, thats a misquote ;)
<nickr> uh?
<dneighbo> the GNUe team is porting NOLA to the GNUe Framework
<dneighbo> and making it adhere to Free Software philosphy (removing m$ fonts for example)
<dneighbo> and adding GNUe principles 
<dneighbo> (like supporting more than MySQL and getting its code logically organized)
<dneighbo> then we will add GNUe Forms Screens for it
<dneighbo> we are offerring the (somewhat massive changes back to noguska)
<nickr> are you going to kill the web fronend, or just add stuff?
<dneighbo> if they accept them (they seem willing at this point)
<dneighbo> it will be normal NOLA
<dneighbo> other wise we will fork
<srobertson> so none of the n-tier stuff works yet? it's just form working directly with a SQL DB?
<reinhard> srobertson: yes exactly
<srobertson> damn! got my hopes up... is the stuff in cvs the latest or is more code floating around?
<reinhard> not sure if there is much outside CVS
<dneighbo> hold on
<srobertson> how do you guys normally read the docbook stuff? Is there a simple command to run or do I need to grok the DocBOOK howto?
<dneighbo> what distro?
<dneighbo> or platform (for docbook)
<dneighbo> as to appserver
<dneighbo> it works with forms now
<dneighbo> its just not 'mature'
<dneighbo> and the 'business logic' side of the fence probably is very immature but its being actively worked on by siesle and sledge (iirc)
<srobertson> redhat 7.2
<dneighbo> im about to beat jcater up for some gruesome report loving soon and that will probably spur appserver development
<dneighbo> srobertson : db2html maindocbookfile.sgml
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> db2pdf maindocbookfile.sgml
<dneighbo> or db2ps
<dneighbo> some of the docbook stuff probably uses the gnome documentation project stuff
<dneighbo> if you get errors on that then perhaps you can get from http://people.redhat.com/~dcm/ (iirc)
<srobertson> dneighbo: is maindocbookfile.sgml somewhere in the cvs tree? 
<dneighbo> well it would be in gnue/docbook/TheDocument/
<dneighbo> s/TheDocument/name of doc you want
<srobertson> gotcha
<srobertson> hey thanks for the help
<dneighbo> i think the file is usually called main.sgml
<dneighbo> OR
<dneighbo> nameofdocument.sgml
<dneighbo> that ~dcm file is wrong
<dneighbo> er url
<dneighbo> but i cant find his new address (sigh) it was good resource too
<srobertson> no problem, I got it to work, once again thanks for the help!
<dneighbo> did redhat crap the rhad?
Nick change: stbain|away -> stbain
<stbain> greetz
<dneighbo> sup
<dneighbo> how goes it stbain 
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<dneighbo> anyone here do stored procs at all with postgres?
<dneighbo> im looking to do something like
<dneighbo> result = select * from foo;
<dneighbo> if result == null:
<dneighbo>   result = "somevalue"
<dneighbo> or something
<dneighbo> i.e. i want to do a query and return the result set if it has one otherwise i want to return a value
<nickr> hmm
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<dsmith> Howdy Folks
<dsmith> How goes things?
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<psu> yay
<psu> my friendly neighborhood 
<psu> linux CD distributor
<psu> now has woody
Action: psu gets his cheque book out
<siesel> cool :)
<psu> d/l woody on dial up was *not* an option ;-)
<siesel> btw. you should try Knoppix 3.1
<siesel> not for your own computer, but to show friends how cool linux can be
<siesel> I just have to modify it and add GNUe tools to the live CD
<psu> url? (to save me googling ;-)
<siesel> http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/
<siesel> oh, sorry: http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html is the english one :)
<psu> thnx
<psu> my german is limited to "ein big mac, ein groB pommes frites und ein kaffe, bitte"
<psu> ;-)
<dneighbo> will the real jcater please stand up please stand up all you other ai's...
<dneighbo> psu: better than my german i understand ich bin der meister
<psu> "there can be only one.."
<dneighbo> but is there much mroe to understand?
<stbain> dneighbo: get that email?
<dneighbo> yip even responded
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<stbain> dneighbo: danke
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<stbain> just out of curiosity... what's the status of menuitems in forms?
<dneighbo> navigator i think is the answer for right now
<jcater_> dneighbo: wassup?
<stbain> OK
<stbain> I'm on a linux workstation now... downloading last night's CVS snapshot
<stbain> I need to install python2 and wxWindows first, right?
<ariel_> hi jcater
<ariel_> jcater: the #default issue is also in gnue-report.dtd and gnue-navigator.dtd,
<ariel_> just to know: the dtd's are updated automatically by mean of gnuedtd or by hand?
<jcater_> you have to run gnuedtd for each one
<jcater_> I only updated gnuedtd
<jcater_> I didn't have time to rerun it for each tool
<jcater_> I will have it automatically run as part of our release procedures
<jcater_> but right now, there's no auto running
<ariel_> i did'n express myself well (sorry for my english)
<ariel_> what i want to know is:
<ariel_> if i run gnuedtd do i still get ATTLIST... #DEFAULT ?
<ariel_> i need some help with reports.
<ariel_> if i run grcvs --filter-list i get only "raw"
<jcater_> no, if you run gnuedtd, you should get the correct syntax
<jcater_> --filter-list has not been implemented yet
<ariel_> if i run it "dry" on some grd it goes well
<ariel_> if i do -filter html i get a problem in PySablot, is this right?
<ariel_> s/-filter/--filter/
<ariel_> also gnue-navigator.dtd is not complete: ELEMENT step is EMPTY, it must contain ELEMENT description
<dneighbo> hey jcater_ what do you do to make VCDs?
<dneighbo> do you do it under GNU/Linux?
Action: dneighbo is thinking 
<dneighbo> i have a digital camera would be nice to go directly from my camera to VCD
<dneighbo> as cd media is cheaper than VHS media
<dneighbo> and since its for church services / worship concerts (i.e. gasp legal copyright usage stuff) ;)
<dneighbo> i suppose i would consider installing windows if absolutely neccessary as my laptop has S-Video in/out...
<dneighbo> NAH! who am i kidding, i wouldnt consider that
<jcater_> yes
<jcater_> I have all the /etc/apt/sources.list entries at home
<jcater_> of the tools you need to make and burn vcd's
<jcater_> it's really easy
<dneighbo> how do you do the input?
<jcater_> input?
<dneighbo> say i have a digital camera (or a vcr) or a dvd player or anything with say RCA Output
<dneighbo> how are you getting it onto your computer to make it VCD?
<jcater_> oh, well, I, um, got the video sources from, um, "legal" copies of, um, stuff from newsgroups
<jcater_> however, I do have a video in board on this computer
<jcater_> it wasn't hard to set up
<jcater_> video4linux project iirc
<dneighbo> ok so on that hand will have to figure way to get thigns in digital image format
<dneighbo> to then make a VCD?
<jcater_> yes
Action: jcater_ is sure it isn't difficult
<dneighbo> and VCD uses just normal CD right
<jcater_> yes
<dneighbo> yummy
<dneighbo> im definitely going to have to play with this you know how awesome it will be
<dneighbo> do you know if you can do split cds?
<jcater_> yip
<dneighbo> like some of the cd as wav, some as mp3 some as vcd?
<jcater_> oh
<jcater_> um
<jcater_> I have no idea about that
<jcater_> you have exceeded my knowledge threshhold
<jcater_> AI.segfault()
<dneighbo> as what would be KILLER for me is to film worship, service (and we record them as well (audio)
<dneighbo> and offer it all on one cD
<dneighbo> er CD
<jcater_> honestly, I wouldn't count on being able to do that
<dneighbo> so they can pop in DVD player and watch
<jcater_> but then again, I could be wrong
<dneighbo> or throw in car CD and listen
Action: dneighbo is doubting its possible
<dneighbo> you know how much (time wise) video will fit on a cd?
Action: dneighbo doubts much more than an hour
<dneighbo> i suppose it doesnt matter as CD media is sooooo cheap
<jcater_> um
<dneighbo> i need to bug nick so that i can get my DVD workign under linux
<dneighbo> so i can make LEGAL backups of my OWNED dvd's 
<jcater_> http://vcdinfo.free.fr/cd
<jcater_> fsck
<jcater_> damn popup
<jcater_> http://www.vcdhelp.com/
<jcater_> is what I was trying to post
<jcater_> tell syou anything about vcd's you could want to know
<dneighbo> yummy
<stbain> nite all
<stbain> thnx dneighbo
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<dneighbo> i will need those sources.list entries
<dneighbo> does the program let you convert to vcd?
<dneighbo> does it let you author menus and such?
<dneighbo> does it do the burning too?
<dneighbo> links? ;)
<nickr> there are things that let you compile vcd images
<jcater_> yes
<dneighbo> yummy so much cool stuff so little time
<jcater_> that's what my sources.list file is for
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<jcater_> compiling vcd images
<jcater_> yes, all the above
Action: jcater_ has no links at the moment
<jcater_> it's all at home
<jcater_> I even wrote myself a 5 line text file
<jcater_> explaining exactly what to do to get what I want :)
<jcater_> so I wouldn't have to wade thru docs each time
<jcater_> dneighbo: you still using sylpheed ?
Action: jcater_ is having serious issues w/sylpheed this latest upgrade'
<dneighbo> i have GOT to get my dv camera working with linux or i will get roasted
<dneighbo> yes using sylpheed 
<dneighbo> it worked this morning (knock on wood)
<dneighbo> but im crabby that it sucks at imap mail :(
<dneighbo> or at least imap + local mail
<dneighbo> if i get a local mail and move it to my IMAP mailbox
<jcater_> dude
<dneighbo> it MOVES it but doesnt delete it out of the local box
<dneighbo> grrr
<jcater_> latest releases it screws up its cache
<jcater_> so I can click on the header of an email I want to read
<dneighbo> and if i highlight 10 messages from local and move them to IMAP mail
<dneighbo> it only moves the FIRST one
<jcater_> and the body displays a message I deleted a week ago
<dneighbo> ouch
<jcater_> plus they broke imap support
<jcater_> it works
<jcater_> but 3-4 times as slow
Action: jcater_ is not happy
<dneighbo> i had some netscape issues like that once upon a time
<dneighbo> im half way considering a switch to evolution :(
<dneighbo> just to see if has better imap support
<dneighbo> let me rephrase that 
<jcater_> kmail looks better with the 3.0 release
<dneighbo> im a DUMB ass and i will be moving my wife to imap mail ASAP
<dneighbo> and she uses evolution so she will be my tester
<dneighbo> generally this is a painful way to test thigns, but they get fixed quickly this way :)
<dneighbo> i really am not a kde fan (ive even tried recently)
<dneighbo> so i try to not use kde apps unless they are far and above the gnome equivalents
<dneighbo> for the most part i dont see many kde apps
<jcater_> they are far and above :)
<dneighbo> i think in many respects they ahve a better end user desktop
<dneighbo> but i think the application selection and such is much weaker
<dneighbo> i could see using linux where i had no kdelibs
<jcater_> maybe so
<dneighbo> i can say the same for gnome
<dneighbo> i can live w/o gnome (do so with fluxbox daily)
<jcater_> but imho the quality of the majority of the kde apps is better than the majority of the gnome apps
<dneighbo> but gtk apps too much
<jcater_> not to say there are no good gnome apps and no bad kde's
<dneighbo> i think the 'polish' of kde apps are better
<jcater_> but my callcenters are now 100% KDE EXCEPT GNUe
<dneighbo> the problem is there just are not many of them
<jcater_> and the occasional freak who MUST have OpenOffice
<dneighbo> and what htey have are pretty limited
<jcater_> I tend to disagree
<dneighbo> i.e. i tried koffice
<dneighbo> and its light years behind openoffice
<jcater_> true
<dneighbo> and about same as gnome office stuff
<dneighbo> cept gnumeric
<jcater_> but I don't want OOo on most machines :)
<jcater_> as it is way too overbloated
<dneighbo> im in love with open office
<dneighbo> the fact that i use it at work here now and all home machines
<dneighbo> and can interchange docs w/o issue
<dneighbo> is PURE bliss
<siesel> you can't compare openoffice and koffice, because openoffice has a ~10 year (am I right?) history
<dneighbo> i never could do that before
<jcater_> siesel: absolutely 
<dneighbo> siesel : hold on, because something is younger doesnt mean you cant compare them
<dneighbo> that woudl be like saying you cant compare windows and linux
<jcater_> I say it is an unfair comparison
<memmett> re evolution: mutt works great for me :)
<jcater_> as imho KOffice kicks mucho arse as a Word Processor and Spreadsheet
<dneighbo> cause windows is older (unless you count dos/cpm) but then if you count unix, well maybe they are the same age :)
Nick change: ariel_ -> arielzzz
<jcater_> but OpenOffice isn't Word Porcessor and Spreadsheet
<dneighbo> its an ok word processor and spreadsheet
<dneighbo> BUT its compatiablity to office on both sucks
<jcater_> sure
<dneighbo> unfortunately in my current world that is mandatory
Action: jcater_ thinks you are missing what I'm saying
<dneighbo> also its spreadsheet is weak for power users :)
Action: jcater_ is not saying you should be using KOffice
<dneighbo> i liked its word processor though
<jcater_> imho, it's word processor is light-years beyond most
<jcater_> as it incorporates frame-based layout 
<dneighbo> funny thing is you know what really got me converted to open office
<dneighbo> the damn presentation software
<dneighbo> not only is it compatiable with office
<dneighbo> feature for feature it blows the crap out of power point
Action: jcater_ has switched my office to OpenOffice in place of Word too
<jcater_> unfortunately , we have hit the bounds of OpenOffice
<jcater_> and are uncovering buttloads of bugs
<jcater_> which is very frustrating for the users
<jcater_> :(
<dneighbo> hmm its been great here, we love the fact it forces 'styles' 
<dneighbo> its great for documentation stuff :)
<siesel> Compatibility is important, but features and stability is important too. Just try to write a book in Winword (as some of my users did) and you'll getting very frustrated
<dneighbo> the number one feature here that was deemed INCREDIBLE
<dneighbo> is when open office decides it needs to freak out (rarely happens when compared to word/excel)
<dneighbo> it says 'hey im gonna freak out now, im giong to save this file first for you' ok?
<dneighbo> click ok
<dneighbo> then it crashes and reopens your file
<dneighbo> and you lose no data
<jcater_> we are creating quite a few documents in marketing that look fine on screen, you save them, and reopen them, and OpenOffice doesn't redisplay right
<dneighbo> i cant tell you how nuts they went about that here
<jcater_> for most users, though, the OpenOffice upgrade has been fine
<jcater_> just don't use several text boxes :)
<dneighbo> i have found some .doc conversion oddities
<siesel> if abiword would support footnotes, I would use it, because its lightweight and stable. 
<dneighbo> more in spreadsheets than word docs
<dneighbo> but same kind of thing, after save and open it would well not be perfect
<dneighbo> but for me i had to fight to get word to do SIMPLE stuff for me, so its been a wet dream :)
<dneighbo> if i were a power word user i might be frustrated
<dneighbo> only real feature in spreadsheet that gets my productivity
<dneighbo> is in excell if you say have
<dneighbo> A   B   C
<siesel> jcater: do you've tryed TeXmacs?
<dneighbo> 1   2  =sum(a1;b1)
<dneighbo> normally if you go in cell c1
<dneighbo> and click the bottom right corner
<dneighbo> it will copy that formula
<dneighbo> for as many rows that have data
<dneighbo> changing the row value for you
<dneighbo> in open office it doesnt do that
<dneighbo> so you have to grab right corner and drag it (sigh)
<dneighbo> i was cranking out some pretty gruesome stuff last week and that was the only real thing that continually irrated me
<dneighbo> that and a missing feature about page printing :)
<dneighbo> you can specify width/heigth paging
<dneighbo> you can say
<dneighbo> print x% of normal size
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> print on x number of pages
<dneighbo> but in excell you can say
<dneighbo> print on x number of pages wide
<dneighbo> print on x number of pages down (or something)
<dneighbo> you can say 1 wide but leave down blank
<dneighbo> anyhow
<dneighbo> at least for once there is good choices to be had :)
<dneighbo> s/is/are
<jcater_> this is the best friggin reading I've done in a while
<jcater_> http://www.eff.org/IP/IP_SLAPP/20010706_eff_barney_response.html
<jcater_> I love the EFF lawyers
<dneighbo> rock on 
<dneighbo> i love lawyers berating other lawyers :)
<jamest> lo
<jamest> lol
<nickr> in the name of good, yea
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> inally, we would like to remind you that New York State Code of Professional Responsibility DR 7-102 [?1200.33] and Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 provides for sanctions for litigation undertaken without support in existing law or sufficient evidentiary support. You may rest assured that, should you pursue a legal course of action against the EFF based upon the frivolous claims made in your e-mail, we will both defend against your c
<jcater_> I love lawyers berating other lawyers, in whoever's name :)
<dneighbo> followed by
<dneighbo> Sincerely,
<dneighbo>  
[16:56] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dneighbo> Cindy A. Cohn
<dneighbo> only a lawyer can send out a serious letter treating you like a 2 year old
<dneighbo> smacking your hand and rubbing your face in your soil
<dneighbo> then straight faced say
<dneighbo> thanks for doing business :)
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<nickr> Hehe.
<nickr> ahh, the EFF is such a good cause.
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<ajmitch> hello all
Action: ajmitch wakes up the channel
Action: nickr screams\
Action: dneighbo troutslaps the alarm clock known as ajmitch
<ajmitch> such a lovely greeting
Action: ajmitch hopes papers come soon
<ajmitch> how is everyone today?
Action: ajmitch waits for someone to commit the miniscule 3-line patch that was sent in... ;)
<dneighbo> cool a record label owned by an artist (that is a lawyer) who might actually get it
<dneighbo> basically offers a good selection of his artists stuff for free in mp3 format
<dneighbo> or you can get in more 'pure' format for .99 cents a song
<dneighbo> or of course you can buy the album
<ajmitch> cool
<dneighbo> http://kungfurecords.com/html/mp3.htm
<dneighbo> funny i used to really like the vandals (thats how i stumbled on kung fu)
<dneighbo> come to find out they wrote most of No Doubts stuff and did a lot of work on Sublime's stuff
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<alias> hi
<ajmitch> greetings alias
<alias> hi....
<ajmitch> how may we help you, good sir?
<alias> so.../
<ajmitch> do you have a request which we may fulfill?
<alias> come on now, i know what's going on, its not like its the first time i've heard of GNUe
<alias> ;)
<ajmitch> ERR108: Syntax Error
<ajmitch> please restate your sentence in a format which contains truth
<alias> hey, i dont feel bad for having not heard of GNUe i dont use "enterprise" software
<alias> i'm a kid =)
<ajmitch> you may wish to harass dneighbo with your queries
<alias> i'm only 16 + 4 years old =)
Action: ajmitch 2
<ajmitch> and i heard of GNUe a couple of years ago
<ajmitch> you have consumed information on the website?
<alias> sure...
<ajmitch> all information?
<alias> i guess not
<alias> *all* information
<ajmitch> ah
<ajmitch> you have a grasp on what GNUe is, then?
<alias> ya
<alias> i guess so
<ajmitch> and you realise that it is primarily used in production, unlike that crappy DotGNU wannabe .NET clone? ;)
<alias> riigghtt...
<ajmitch> that there are support monkeys trained to sit in #gnuenterprise 24/7 going 'Oook'
<alias> really?
<ajmitch> yup
<alias> hmmm... so who uses GNUe?
<ajmitch> most people here, i'd say :)
<alias> any companies or anything?
Action: ajmitch is unsure of people using it - i just know that there are quite a few
<ajmitch> of course
<alias> cool
<alias> ok im going back to the safe world of dotGNU =)
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<dneighbo> ook
<ajmitch> hello dneighbo
<ajmitch> was just entertaining a DotGNU developer as to what GNUe is
<ajmitch> [11:26:58] <alias> ajmitch: who? i've never heard of it. of course that doesnt mean no one uses it. but i mean it was never /.ed or anything.
<ajmitch> [11:27:19] * ajmitch sighs
<ajmitch> maybe you shoudl announce GNUe on slashdot ;)
<dneighbo> um based on teh quality of folks that troll slashdot nowadays its hardly an honor
<dneighbo> ie. slashdot and enterprise are somewhat non complimentary :)
<dneighbo> we have been on linuxtoday and newsforge and even recently in eweek
<dneighbo> all much more suitable :)
<dneighbo> when we make a first 'real' application outside the tools and get website abble to with stand slashdot
<ajmitch> i know, was just joking :)
<jcater> eh?
<jcater> you don't trust ash?
<ajmitch> ash is probably up to it, but could you handle the hordes of people coming in saying "h3y th1s is a 1337 VB cl0n3!!!"
Action: ajmitch has seen a couple of people in here before that were like that
<jcater> you mean, "why not java?"
<jcater> "why not perl"
<jcater> "how are you different than glade?"
<jcater> "you support Oracle and DB2: That's anti-freedom!!!"
<jcater> "this isn't access"
<dneighbo> hmm we never get that last one (least not yet)
<jcater> "this isn't pgadmin"
<dneighbo> the first one we get ALL the FRIGGIN time
<dneighbo> why not java
<ajmitch> heh
<jcater> "why not XUL?"
<dneighbo> usually followed by why designer, just use glade
<ajmitch> have had that with DotGNU, too
<dneighbo> oh and yes why not XUL
<dneighbo> thats another common one
<dneighbo> in fact 
<dneighbo> Java, XUL, Glade
<dneighbo> probably are the top three
<dneighbo> early on lots of 'lets use php'
<dneighbo> now that we are python we get some
<ajmitch> the usual one in #dotgnu is 'why do you bother with a compiler & stuff when there's mono'
<dneighbo> why python (for appserver)
<ajmitch> yep
<dneighbo> ajmitch: my question for dotgnu generally had been 'why bother'
<ajmitch> dneighbo: i know :)
<dneighbo> now that hailstorm is almost defunct
<dneighbo> and almost all the 'services' initiatives are dead at M$
<ajmitch> still something fun to do
<dneighbo> isnt that the main thing dotGNU was trying to circumvent?
<dneighbo> and leaving the other stuff to mono?
<ajmitch> there are an awful lot of companies that are getting pushed into .NET
<dneighbo> now m$ seems to be waivering a bit on .NET
<ajmitch> we can still do our webservices & stuff
Action: ajmitch doesn't think MS will waver that much
<dneighbo> we can do webservices today with m$ or .net :)
<ajmitch> which is why we want a free platform to do them on :)
<dneighbo> hell we could do them 2 years ago, just no one was claling them 'web services' ;)
<ajmitch> i know
<dneighbo> s/with/without
<dneighbo> freudian slip
<ajmitch> the 'web services' thing that they're pushing is just a little more integrated
<dneighbo> i see less 'coolness' in web services
<dneighbo> and more value in the library stuff ( i dont know the name of it )
<dneighbo> CLR - common language runtime or whatever?
<dneighbo> so that say gnue-common could be written in such a way that
<dneighbo> C or PHP or Python could use it natively
<dneighbo> almost like it was swig'ed only without having to swig it
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> that's what we will be able to do
<ajmitch> well, with python at least
<dneighbo> i think python and java already do xplatform well
<dneighbo> and so there is no need to replace that with say C#
<ajmitch> gopal started a python integration thing, which wrapped the pnet runtime
<dneighbo> webservices exist so there doesnt seem like new standards are needed
<ajmitch> java & python have their shortfalls - we want to make it easy to migrate off .NET
<dneighbo> the code sharing among languages is interesting concept though
<dneighbo> python doesnt have pitfalls
<ajmitch> rofl
<dneighbo> merely unexpected ditches
<jcater> an interesting, albeit flawed one :)
Action: ajmitch knows that C# is crap for some things, java for others (quite similar), and python crap in a different way :)
<dneighbo> python might be crap, but we consider it a polished turd
<ajmitch> python is still very nice 
<ajmitch> wxPython, however...
<dneighbo> not diarreha like java ;)
Action: ajmitch wonders if psu will put that in the KC ;)
<dneighbo> or bloated gas cramps like C# (i.e. a crap waiting to happen)
Action: ajmitch waits for gnue cvs changes to land
<dneighbo> hmmm xplatform language matrix
<dneighbo> python - polished turd
<dneighbo> java - diarreha 
<dneighbo> c# - severe cramps (diarreha waiting to happen)
<ajmitch> what about C or C++?
<ajmitch> and php?
<dneighbo> ajmitch i said cross platform
<ajmitch> C is cross platform :)
<dneighbo> c/c++ : consipation (crap that is painful and hard to get out)
<dneighbo> er constipation
<dneighbo> php: pebble poops (serious poopers need not apply)
<dneighbo> anyhow jcater its great 
Action: ajmitch guesses that derek has a bias or two :)
<dneighbo> now someone says "Why not java?"
<dneighbo> we answer
<dneighbo> "Not enough toilet paper to go around."
<dneighbo> ajmitch i use php probably more than any other language right now
<dneighbo> so my bias comes with experience in the trenches not general biased snobbery
Action: ajmitch wonders if it's worth splitting code from navigator UI drivers into a UIbase.py
<ajmitch> seems like the main code sharing is in the runForm method
<dneighbo> time to run home
<ajmitch> ok, bye
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<ajmitch> wb jamest
<ajmitch> sigh, still no mail
<jamest> no mail?
<ajmitch> assignment papers
<jamest> ah
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<ajmitch> hey lex!!
<lex> ajmitch: 'lo
<lex> im looking for dtm.... thought he might be abducted in the whereabouts of gnue..... you seen this man????
Action: lex shows a picture of skinny ass dtm
<ajmitch> nope
<lex> mhm.... are you SHURE?
<lex> mhm....kay im overout
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<dneighbo> nickr: you around?>
<nickr> yep
<dneighbo> hey frozen bubble busted for you in testing or unstable?
<dneighbo> i get
<dneighbo> [SDL Init] libpng warning: Application was compiled with png.h from libpng-1.2.1libpng warning: Application  is running with png.c from libpng-1.0.12
<dneighbo> libpng error: Incompatible libpng version in application and library
<dneighbo> Fatal signal: Segmentation Fault (SDL Parachute Deployed)
<dneighbo> dneighbo@latitude:~$ 
<dneighbo> on both
<dneighbo> i tried to get some of the other libpng packages but no help
<nickr> yea, there isa  libpng issue thats being worked out
<nickr> in unstable
<dneighbo> and testing too
<dneighbo> as my testing box has same issue
<nickr> testing is irrelevent at this point
<nickr> since the testing script has'nt started yet
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> im having to go back to stable just to get this package
<dneighbo> or i die at my house 
<dneighbo> of all the packages to hurt that is the neighbors house 'killer app'
<dneighbo> snapper head
<dneighbo> it seems stable has this issue too
<dneighbo> oh well they will have to understand
--- Wed Jul 31 2002