Action: drochaid is away: sleeping with any luck
<MysticOne> jcater: you done with your point of sale system yet?
<MysticOne> j/k :)
Action: MysticOne snickers
<ajmitch> heh
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<dneighbo_> sigh is it time to move off opn?
<ajmitch> hmm?
<dneighbo_> i think if debian goes we probably need to consider it
<ajmitch> why?
<ajmitch> ah
<dneighbo_> as like ben armstrong states
<dneighbo_> gnue came here to be where the free software community was
<dneighbo_> if most of it moves of the network it makes little sense for us to stay
<dneighbo_> as most know i personally disagree with lilo's approach to fundraising
<dneighbo_> but really like lilo
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> i could agree with that :)
<dneighbo_> and in many respects have remained silent mostly because in xchat and such you never see the stupid things anyhow
<dneighbo_> even in bitchx they arent frequent enough for me to get irate about
Action: dneighbo_ will be back later just checking in quickly.
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<dtm> dneighbo: there are those who would not want to know my opinion of lilo's personal behavior.
<dtm> i now personally disagree with his entire approach to community relations, period.
<dtm> there are other irc networks who have been created or popularized because OPN is utterly incompetent and obsolete
<dtm> exactly the same as when phpgroupware moved from sf.net 
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<stbain> greetz
<ajmitch> ello
Action: dneighbo sees no relation to phpgroupware moving and opn, butagree with the rest
Action: dneighbo is away: sleeping
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<dtm> dneighbo: the relatoinship is becasue phpgroupware chose the painstaking process of moving away from the original free software haven when it got polluted by greedy short sighted commercial stupidity
<dtm> not to mention heinously unreliable
<dtm> for absolutely no good reason
<ajmitch> SF is moving further away from FS :)
<dtm> sf.net was that stupidity then, and OPN is that stupidity now
<dtm> so that was my point  :>
<dtm> ajmitch: :\
<dtm> ajmitch: i wonder how well savannah will scale
<dtm> i have no idea of the talent behind its management.  apparently they're good though.
<dtm> but that oculd get expensive $$
<dtm> sf.net is heinously expensive
<dtm> in personnel and hardware and networking
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> i don't think hardware is much of an issue yet
<dtm> phpgw alone was causing mad insane traffic
<ajmitch> from the list of donations that i saw :)
<dtm> maybe it helps though that savannah doesn't let any idiot on
<dtm> thereby probably reducing the DoS factor
<ajmitch> savannah has some interesting rules as well
<dtm> mmhmm
<ajmitch> but yeah, resources would be a big drain
<dtm> i dont know anyone who's really on the ball in terms of using savannah, but i haven't heard of a single problem with it
<ajmitch> i'm on the main list, i see a bit of the work they do
<dtm> i heard that they were talking about porting Savannah to phpgwapi somehow.  that *alone* should get gnue interested in providing comprehensive web services!  :>
<chillywilly> what's wrong with OPN?
<dtm> chillywilly: it's a long story; i'll paste you a url if i come across em again
<dtm> lilo's completely lost it
<chillywilly> I don't agree
<chillywilly> I know the whole 'lilo' story
<dtm> oh, well, then you have no reason to ask :)
<dtm> it's a long story subject to personal interpretation and experience
<chillywilly> I suppose you are in agreement with those who have started things like the 'lilo free network' lfnet?
<ajmitch> is #axisgroupware moving?
<dtm> chillywilly: no way; they're nuts
<dtm> chillywilly: i mean they have some personal reasons to be seriously disgruntled but the way they express it is abusive and juvenile
<dtm> the entire concept of starting a network just to be free of lilo or anyone else is utterly pathetic  :)
<dtm> really sad  :\
<chillywilly> agreed
<dtm> but i am on the short end of lilo's stick
<dtm> i got lilo'd a bit  ;)
<ajmitch> i've only had good dealings with him
<chillywilly> same here
<dtm> ajmitch: yeah same for a lot of people
<dtm> especially peopel who are just end users, and who dont try to talk to him about organization or business
<chillywilly> in fact I gave him $10 via paypal
<dtm> like for example asking "what's your plan for using donations?"
<dtm> that's off limits
<ajmitch> i'm just an ordinary channel dictator
<chillywilly> well that was a personal gift that I gave
<chillywilly> not a donation to the non-profit
<dtm> i sent him $5 or $10 long ago back when he was going to ostensibly use it for community purposes rather than just absorbing it into his own personal pocket
<dtm> for the privilege of talking on irc
<dtm> but i backed it with attempts to help develop the organization and to help him personally find work and social services
<dtm> all rational conversation -- even inquiries -- about structure or operations is strictly off limits with him
<ajmitch> only irc server i've run was to play with, and was the undernet server (thanks Isomer ;)
<dtm> that's why everyone has a problem with him
<dtm> well that and the fact that this network is heinously unreliable for no good reason
<dtm> oh yeah, and because he's taking money for no good reason, to do nothing
<dtm> and tricking people into thinking that it's for a community project
<ajmitch> i wouldn't mind people donating money to me
<dtm> ajmitch: i wouldn't mind you taking money if you were honest about what you were doing with it and it was their clear choice :)
<dtm> they can give it to him for blind hero worship or some sort of minor one-time thanks, but not because running an irc network is expensive or hard, because it's not.  all resources are donated.  the time sink is because it's set up like crap.
<ajmitch> ok then, i'm wanting money to get food :)
<dtm> it has no automatic failover
<dtm> all this rehubbing business is automated on most other networks
<dtm> it's like having a bunch of apache servers with nothing but a DNS round robin and when one fails, there's not even a load balancer so everyone stalls
<dtm> it's nonsense  :)
<dtm> quakenet has 60,000-100,000 users
<chillywilly> I have found this network to be most reliable compared to others
<ajmitch> the issue is - should #gnuenterprise move or nor?
<dtm> they manually rehub once every several months, and the servers automatically rehub continuously
<ajmitch> chillywilly: i haven't
<dtm> chillywilly: that is true.  but there's no reason why it's gotta be even as poor as it is :)
<dtm> chillywilly: the point is that people tend to really suck at running irc
<dtm> and they act like it's all wicked hard
<chillywilly> seems most of the kinks have been ironed out
<dtm> lilo has fascist requirements for new servers; that's why nobody wants to donate more.
<chillywilly> T3 connection?
<dtm> no i mean in terms of the unreasonable amount of control the donor has to give to lilo, over their donated server
<dtm> which is partially because the servers aren't simply configured to run themselves as they should be
<dtm> lilo shouldn't even have to log into them
<dtm> nobody should.  they're servers!
<dtm> hee hee
<chillywilly> I have to log into mine to maintain it
<chillywilly> add new crap when I get around to playing with something ;)
<dtm> yeah but you know, irc servers basically only need a watchdog, a log rotation/export, and auto-rehubbing
<ajmitch> my main dektop box is my server :)
<dtm> not unlike apache
<chillywilly> well I have never run irc
<dtm> i've spent weeks listening to people in #infoanarchy who have
<chillywilly> I really don't plan to be donating anything anyway
<dtm> including an op from quakenet and other networks
<dtm> they bitch about lilo like you wouldn't believe
<ajmitch> ah
<chillywilly> only thing I know about IRC is hw the protocol works as I read all the RFCs
<dtm> if running a network is that hard, or if a grassroots volunteer's personal expenses are that high, the simple choice is 1) become intrinsically profitable by finding and filling a need or 2) get someone else to do it who does know how to do it right
<chillywilly> never maintained an IRC network
<dtm> yeah i haven't either.  just did it for fun once like you did.  but i've interrogated ops of other networks to no end
<ajmitch> why?
<dtm> because i wanted to know _exactly_ what it's like so as to ascertain what's going on here
<dtm> and i am including former ops of OPN
<dtm> such as netgod and one other guy
<ajmitch> and current OPN ops?
<dtm> not current ones... virtually all of them that are senior network admins left
<chillywilly> well there's that one network that consists of a lot f fromer OPN ops...I cannot recall it's name
<dtm> chillywilly: there's at least one
<dtm> one's a four letter acronym.  i forgot.
<chillywilly> ElectricElf?
<ajmitch> OFTC?
<dtm> ajmitch: yeah
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> that's the one
<ajmitch> OFTC is what the crashdot article talked about
<chillywilly> open and free technologoy commmunity or some such thing
<chillywilly> I haven't really observed people jumping off Freenode (OPN) en masse though...
<dtm> i have
<dtm> some talked about it.  some are gone.
<dtm> #palmchat is run by one of the former OPN ops i talked to.  it left one day, bewm.
<dtm> last i knew #mandrake had a 24hr edict set.  and they had a backup channel elsewhere.
<dtm> the list goes on
<chillywilly> #palmchat is still there
<dtm> of people who are directly pissed at lilo's completely inane and childish behavior, or who just dont wanna hear their users pissed and leaving, or who just dont like the management's principles
<chillywilly> hah
<chillywilly> [01:22:19] -ChanServ- [#palmchat] There is a new #palmchat at irc.oftc.net. Please connect there.
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah but all the important people are gone
<dtm> there ya go
<dtm> pretty weird huh  :(
<dtm> i've been here since it was nothing but a certain standard of user support and peer etiquette in #linpeople on dal.net
<chillywilly> well I really have no qualms with lilo and don't care that much and I doubt we are going to move, plus I like WOPN radio
<dtm> and back when lilo was the shit, mind you
<dtm> because he built and maintained that channel
<dtm> he made the whole thing work
<dtm> he set the standard and was a great example of a channel moderator
<dtm> he was the best, in fact
<dtm> but at one point he just flat out lost it
<dtm> he went bonkers with this idea that somehow people should magically pay for irc
<chillywilly> well we do have a staffer hanging out in here right now :)
<dtm> specifically, to pay someone to talk on irc
<dtm> yeah i know, poor guy
<dtm> i dare any one of them to set foot in #infoanarchy
<ajmitch> why?
<dtm> oh btw did you know that certain channels and ops and servers were recently being deleted due to idealistic differences?
<dtm> even without causing trouble
<dtm> it's off the deep end
<dtm> ajmitch: because they'd set em straight
<ajmitch> ok, i'm outta here, gotta go play in the rain
<dtm> ajmitch: oh that's cool   splash around for me man, since i can't
Action: ajmitch goes away & grabs a jacket
<chillywilly> I have to piss
<chillywilly> just so you know ;P
<dtm> great!
<dtm> well i'm working on it
<dtm> mom got me some sodas today
<dtm> ;alkjdsflj
Action: chillywilly has soda too
<dtm> we're twins!
<chillywilly> I hope not ;
<chillywilly> P
<chillywilly> http://www.hackles.org/strips/cartoon7.png
<dtm> wow smuckola.org has had a lot of visitors in the last 2 mo
<dtm> 67 unique
<dtm> 67 unique client hostnames
<dtm> none from aol!
<chillywilly> w00t
<chillywilly> should we move to irc.gnuenterprise.org? ;)
<chillywilly> better yet
<chillywilly> irc.gnu.org
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> oh but wait then you would be using FSF donated money to pay people to admin it...oh my...
<chillywilly> wooopps
<dtm> that would be worthwhile if it went to a true community whole
<dtm> and if any money went to someone specifically for full time wages to administrate irc then they should have their fingers bound and hammered
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<dtm> if i was in charge of FSF donations i'd pay an admin a decent fulltime wage, enough to cover rent maybe...   at least the bulk of his expenses... on a contract basis based on estimated weekly hours.  and i'd grease my business network on his behalf so he could continue to create himself more income via my contacts.
<stbain> greetz
<stbain> switched back to debian
<stbain> then realized... no KDE3
<dtm> that's all i asked for whenever I applied to Tim Ney
<stbain> >:/
<dtm> i'd pay somewhere around the neighborhood of $10-20/hr depending on their living cost
<dtm> like out here in SFBA it'd be like $15-20/hr
<dtm> but with a budget of the # of hour
<dtm> s
<dtm> like, irc maintenance is budgeted 10 hrs per month.  savannah maintenance is budgeted <random guess> 80 hrs per month.
<dtm> etc
<dtm> that'd be a sweet gig, man.
<dtm> if one was a badass entrepreneurial admin
<dtm> it'd be a challenge
<dtm> i'm not sure how many people i've ever met who could do such a thing
<dtm> not many
<dtm> netgod probably could
<dtm> Scott van Ravenswaay definately could
<dtm> i worked with scottvr at netcom hosting
<dtm> he's a wizard with a magic head
<dtm> my buddy from ksu, spectre, could
<dtm> of course spectre had higher salary requirements  :)
<dtm> and he wanted more illustrious things
<dtm> materially
<dtm> like mad raging equipment and phat pipe
<chillywilly> 80 per month?
<chillywilly> that's 2 weeks work in one month
<chillywilly> how is that sweet?
<dtm> because it would be continuous, and because the list of work would go on
<dtm> maintaining www.gnu.org, the mailing lists, etc
<dtm> etc etc
<dtm> and again, it was a random guess to illustrate a point
<dtm> the infrastructure would have to become so systematized that it could largely run itself
<dtm> and you manage additions, production changes, and abuses
<dtm> and blue sky research on how to make it all magically even better
<dtm> or research on how to generate more income
<dtm> like grants or fundraisers or what-have-ye
<dtm> selling more free software services and physical products
<dtm> heck it would be a nice piece on someone's own consulting agenda to say that they're primarily responsible for the FSF's networks
<dtm> someone should also investigate and sample the various proprietary products/services out there for feasability of being replaced by free software.  that's basically what i'm doing with my own business.
<dtm> an active sysadmin would be a good person to do that, but it'd help to have someone active in industry, like a consultant
<dtm> along the lines of the edict set by the original GNU researchers who had to do all their work on expensive and proprietary systems so that they could do R&D of free stuff at all
<dtm> that's exactly what i do at yet a higher level
<chillywilly> and here I thought you did prop. video conferencing/telecomm stuff...
<dtm> ok you haven't been reading the same #gnuenterprise that i have  :)
<chillywilly> sorry, must've been my dtm-o-meter filtering stuff out ;P
<dtm> yep
<dtm> i'm researching the state of the art of collaborative technologies, so i can eventually fund or help create free ones
<dtm> half of what i'm working in is already free, so that's good
<dtm> other portions require unbelievable R&D or very expensive physical resources
<chillywilly> so what about the video conferencing gig?
<dtm> that's one of the more expensive and difficult ones, and the impetus to replace that hasn't reached a high enough mass
<dtm> i'm focusing on other stuff in that respect
<chillywilly> btw, if you want to debate intelligently about the whole OPN/lilo thing Barbicane is taking on people in #freenode
Action: chillywilly would like to watch :)
<chillywilly> should be entertaining
<dtm> but it's good though because that conferencing stuff is so wicked complex and expensive that i really do need to learn it from the undisputed masters such as webex, who have $21M in VC
<dtm> and a globally peered network and global professional services
<dtm> i mean, even rsb finds H.323 to be mind boggling
<dtm> it's one of the most absolutely loaded protocols ever
<chillywilly> what about davey boy?
<chillywilly> he's a smart guy
<dtm> it does everything from voice over ip to whiteboarding to triggering of realtime facial expressions of avatars!
<dtm> chillywilly: oh no thanks, i'm not up for debating it because the current slashdot articles and all the protest sites have it nailed.  the slashdot article in particular has it completely.  way better than i could state it.
<chillywilly> hmmm, and here I thought it was just a simple protocol that did VOIP
<dtm> it's a complex issue
<chillywilly> plz?
<chillywilly> just go argue with him :)
<dtm> chillywilly: no, see h.323 is the complete platform of what we call "web conferencing", of which voip is but a mere component.  and voip is not simple at all.
<chillywilly> I'm bored
<dtm> no!  :>  i'm learning java schiznit
<dtm> :\
<chillywilly> even more reason then
<dtm> and my mom's gonna give her life story as her testimony in front of thousands of people tomorrow
<dtm> at church
<chillywilly> fine...I'll do something useful then
<dtm> ok
<chillywilly> cool
<dtm> i should send you guys the text transcript and i'll see if i can get an mpeg
<chillywilly> thousands?
<dtm> yeah we have a huge church
<chillywilly> yur church is that big?
<dtm> and she's doing all 3 or 4 services
<dtm> yes, 2000-3000 members
<dtm> it's like SVLUG  :)
<dtm> in size
<chillywilly> see, I don't think a church can be very functinal when it is bigger than 800, imho
<dtm> ooookay!
<dtm> well this one is highly functional and coherent
<chillywilly> you need to plant sme churches
<dtm> it's all based on small groups
<chillywilly> heck even our small church has planted a few
<dtm> with the most bad ass leadership, also
<chillywilly> our pastr wants t grow us to about 800 so we can better sustain ourselves and keep planting new chruches
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<dtm> i dont understand what's going on with all these java based CMS projects on jakarta.apache.org
<dtm> chillywilly: have your buddy Barbicane read the slashdot article at +3 and higher :
<dtm> :)
<dtm> it's all dead on, and with minimal mention of lilofree.net
<chillywilly> barbicane is barbicane.staff.freenode ;)
<chillywilly> MysticOne: there is a staffer
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> maybe someone will start a parody network called 'feenode'
<dtm> i brought #gnuenterprise over to OPN so it would be ironical if i ended up advocating a move
<dtm> although if people are ignoring lilo's begging messages and the rest of his behavior, then they probably dont care
<dtm> until one of their friends are kicked off
<dtm> like dneighbo was saying, #debian is disgruntled
<chillywilly> how did yu bring us here?
<dtm> and i find the idea of various projects splitting to their own server/network ludicrous
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<Barbicane> hello all!
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<dtm> chillywilly: that coincided with me inviting dneighbo over to #dcl 
<dtm> chillywilly: i happened upon gnue.org and hung out in irc.gnuenterprise.org for a while
<dtm> Barbicane: hi there
<chillywilly> ok
<Barbicane> hey! dneighbo is here in my town!
<dtm> Barbicane: yay
<Barbicane> great guy :)
<dtm> Barbicane: one of the baddest LUGs around
<dtm> Barbicane: oh have you hung out with dneighbo?
<chillywilly> da masta is da bizomb
<dtm> chillywilly: hehehe
<Barbicane> nah, never mey him, just see his emails all the time on the lug list
<dtm> chillywilly: da masta showed me gnue on his laptop at rsb's house.  it was 31337
<chillywilly> well someday I'll make it out there to the west coast
<dtm> y34h
<Barbicane> nah, it is to hot here...
<chillywilly> it's hot everywhere
<Barbicane> no, I mean really hot here...
<chillywilly> I was in NC and it was 99 and up in WI it was 96
<Barbicane> bah.. that is sweater weather :)
Action: chillywilly throws a snowball at Barbicane
<chillywilly> but...there's...no...snow....
<Barbicane> hehe
<Barbicane> yeah, it melts :)
<chillywilly> bones....I...need...your...help...
<Barbicane> dtm: I am not even sure if he still lives here....
<chillywilly> who?
<chillywilly> dneighbo be livin' in da desert, afaik
<Barbicane> yeah, I think so...
<chillywilly> AZ
<chillywilly> Gilbert, AZ
<Barbicane> see! he did move :)
Action: Barbicane is in tucson
<chillywilly> yea, I suppose
<chillywilly> I dunno
Action: chillywilly <-- know's nothing
<Barbicane> bah.. doesnt nmatter! what did I interrupt?
<chillywilly> just dtm ripping on lilo/OPN ;)
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<Barbicane> woohoo! erm.. why?
<dtm> hahaha  shaddap!  KTHX  ^_^
<chillywilly> fine then
<chillywilly> you irc nazi
<dtm> Barbicane: behavioral assessments ranging from the personal/subjective to the global/objective, all carefully stated on the current slashdot article
<Barbicane> wow! that sounds good!
<Barbicane> what assemsments?
<dtm> i have some personal points that are even more juicy!  *tee hee*  but still pathetic.
<dtm> well, go read em!
<dtm> Barbicane: except for the juvenile and counterabusive parts of, say, lilofree.net
<Barbicane> donde? slashdot?
<dtm> Barbicane: yessir
<Barbicane> got a something I can grep for.. to save time?
<dtm> i just read all the slashdot comments on that article at +3 and up
<dtm> no, all of them
<dtm> and the list goes *way* farther too but that's the summary
<dtm> hehe.
<Barbicane> hrm.. I did that a few hours ago...
<chillywilly> someone even posted a so called irc log "showing" that lilo worked for a pr0n shop
<dtm> i read like 20 or so articles
<dtm> chillywilly: oh sheesh
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> i seriously doubt that!
<Barbicane> yeah, that is about what I read...
<chillywilly> dtm: but yet you use crashdot as a basis...
<chillywilly> I don't even read crashdt anymore
<Barbicane> I rarely read slashdot
<chillywilly> until ajmitch mentin the article
<chillywilly> mentioned
<Barbicane> just someone pointed this nugget out to me today
<chillywilly> btw, I didn't know MysticOne there was so young
<chillywilly> ;P
<Barbicane> dtm: what comments? I cant find anything with shocking points in there.
<dtm> hmm ok
<dtm> well they all are!
<Barbicane> erm... can you give an example so I can share you prespective?
<dtm> chillywilly: no i dont use it as a basis.  they simply summarized what i know to be true
<Barbicane> dtm: what do you know to be true?
<dtm> Barbicane: no thanks!  they're all right there in plain sight.  every single article at +3 as of an hour or so when i read em.  dont really wanna hash it out myself!
<dtm> that would really really suck
<dtm> big time
<dtm> absolutely nothing new
<Barbicane> Ijust dont see anything that is fact in there...
<dtm> well other than my own personal interactions which i dont have the logs of anyway
<dtm> Barbicane: oh well!
<Barbicane> which makes it all conjecture
<dtm> no, it makes it a different viewpoint
<dtm> because it's chock full of facts that some people dont acknowledge.
<Barbicane> dtm: you are not that stupid
<dtm> what?
<Barbicane> viewpoint is created through conjeture
<chillywilly> what about the bruce perens comment?
<dtm> geez dewd.  kindly back the hell off, ok?
<chillywilly> that is kinda wacky
<dtm> i already expressed in every rational way that i'm not having any sort of discussion about it.
<Barbicane> okay
<chillywilly> hmmm, that's lame
<Barbicane> I thought 'gee, point, counterpoint'
<Barbicane> sorry, I should not have cuntered your counter.
<Barbicane> *countered
<dtm> i didn't make a point.
<dtm> i wasn't in the discussion  :)
<chillywilly> ?
<dtm> my initial comment was to deny a discussion, and deflect the casual reader to slashdot!
<Barbicane> and I did
<chillywilly> jsut hash it out damnit ;)
<Barbicane> and I stated I didnt see anything there of fact
<dtm> and i wont indulge anyone who tries to egg me on anyhow.
<dtm> chillywilly: oh you!
<dtm> Barbicane: well too bad!  end of story!
<Barbicane> okay
<dtm> big fat hairy deal!  i'm learning java  :)
<chillywilly> you can't rationally discuss it with someone who works with lilo and OPN?
<chillywilly> booooo
Action: chillywilly puts dtm into a head lock
<dtm> chillywilly: sorry i wont indulge your desire to get peopel to pick a fight!!  :>
<Barbicane> chillywilly: it is best when let go
<Barbicane> dtm: I am not picking a fight... just looking for facts.
<chillywilly> I don't want to watch a fight
<dtm> Barbicane:  nono  chillywilly was trying to get me to pick a fight  :>
<dtm> he was bored!
<Barbicane> dtm: ah.. okay
<dtm> hehehe
<chillywilly> I want to see if your claims have any merit when put up against someone who actually knows what's up
<dtm> coz he's a silly ass
<dtm> chillywilly: haha whatever!
<Barbicane> dtm: that is rude.
<Barbicane> debate, arfue do whatever, but please refrain from being rude.
<Barbicane> *argue
<chillywilly> hey I don't know the skinny I am sure ther staff.freenode know what is crap and what is not
<chillywilly> er, other
<dtm> Barbicane: ok Mr. Congeniality Cop of #Gnuenterprise.  it would be rude if it was completely out of the context of me and chillywilly being longtime blood bruthaz
<Barbicane> here is the truth:
Action: dtm cuts his hand and spits on it and shakes with chillywilly
<Barbicane> it is acommunication project.
<chillywilly> well anyway...let's not get all mental
<Barbicane> dtm: I am not going to op... I was just asking
Action: chillywilly shakes dtm's hand
<dtm> chillywilly: :)
Action: dtm washes his hands then, coz that's gross and unsanitary
<dtm> :]
<dtm> chillywilly: i beat Superman on my atari 2600 emulator in the first try tonight!
<dtm> on the easy level
<dtm> same with Adventure yesterday
<chillywilly> yipee
<dtm> i hadn't played that stuff since i was like 6-12 yrs old
<dtm> Adventure is as old as we are.
<dtm> it's like (c)1976
<chillywilly> sheeeit
<chillywilly> anyone read the O'reilley article on OS in gov't?
<chillywilly> on LinuxToday
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-08-17-008-26-OP-CY-PB
<chillywilly> just another reason fr me to not like Tim O'reilley's politics
<chillywilly> oh well
<dtm> :\
<dtm> chillywilly: did you read all that rambling i said yesterday about the origins of Adventure?
<dtm> bout the C data structure in asm?
<dtm> and the masters degree program with Ken Thompson
<dtm> that's what my buddy Warren did in order to make that game
<dtm> i hung out with him in las vegas last weekend
<dtm> he's the schmiddt
<chillywilly> yea
<dtm> pretty amazing
<dtm> that kind of complex code in 4k is basically like a shakespearean haiku
<dtm> :>
<dtm> i mean it took the guy like 6-18 months to write a 4k binary.
<dtm> all by himself purely out of his own head
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-08-17-008-26-OP-CY-PB-0014
<dtm> well, you know, more or less
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly>  Though I normally avoid sending people to Slashdot, if you want to see an astroturf flood in action, visit:
<chillywilly> http://slashdot.org/articles/02/08/16/1621244.shtml?tid=99
<chillywilly> The author, Michael, raises a number of valid objections to O'Reilly's article.
<chillywilly> I particularly liked his very-much-to-the-point reference to the CNET article describing how Microsoft pressured the NSA to drop development of Security-Enhanced Linux:
<chillywilly> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-950083.html
<chillywilly> Now read some of the posts demonizing Michael, Open Source, and even the foundations of freedom itself:
<chillywilly> > "Does the public have a RIGHT to know the government's network infrastructure? Does the public have a RIGHT to know what data is on every civil servant's hard drive? I think not." [by crimoid]
<chillywilly> And:
<chillywilly> > "We don't live in a true democracy. Government is not required to be completely transparent." [by crimoid]
<chillywilly> By the way, the post containing that first quote received "Score:4, Insightful," which is another reason I avoid Slashdot.
<dtm> chillywilly: hahaha  #mklinux is moving to oftc
<chillywilly> the last line is hilarious :)
<chillywilly> good for them
<dtm> yeah i dont know what's up with oreilly
<chillywilly> we're getting too politicized damnit!
<dtm> and then there's larry lessig....  the guy Hans who traveled here with derek, said that Larry said that Microsoft is to be credited with the development of the internet.... in the early 90's!!
<chillywilly> stinkin linux zealots
<dtm> i didn't personally see/hear that quote but sheesh
<dtm> so i'd have to verify that
<chillywilly> lessig is a bit misguided at times
<dtm> but uh...  one would think that Hans would be likely to get it right
<chillywilly> but has valid points abut copyright and such
<dtm> he doesn't take that stuff lightly 
<dtm> yeah
<chillywilly> the gov't created the internet
<dtm> well .. but.. if Larry did say that, one would wonder what on EARTH he wsa thinking
<dtm> exhibit A:  gates's stupid ass book "the road ahead" had not a single mention of the Internet until they history-revisioned it
<chillywilly> or at least funded it
<dtm> exhibit B:  in the early 90's, M$ didn't even *have* a tcpip stack
<dtm> did not HAVE ONE
<dtm> had no routable networking.
<chillywilly> they took BSD's
<chillywilly> eventually
<dtm> no but they didn't have one at *all* then :>
<dtm> yeah eventually :\
<dtm> sheeeeesh
<dtm> a bit of an oversight for a luminary to make
<chillywilly> I would credit the gov't researchers and BSD hackers
<dtm> i mean....  how could larry lessig think that
<dtm> yeah no kiding
<chillywilly> fr bringing the internet to the masses
<dtm> it was a bit of a think tank over like decades.
<dtm> not to mention extreme engineering
<dtm> and many many reference implementations to strengthen it
<chillywilly> well maybe not the masses
<chillywilly> but fr creating it and creating a nice implementation
<dtm> even minix and linux played a role, because they along with BSD also helped make it possible for ISPs to quickly spring up
paq (~paq@202.155.120.221) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
<chillywilly> yea
<dtm> the first bit of relevance i knew of M$ having, was leveraging their desktop monopoly to embrace and extend PPP
<dtm> iirc
<chillywilly> sme of the RFCs are pretty old aren't they? ;)
<dtm> MS-STAC, etc
<dtm> which IS A LICENSE of stac's compression
<dtm> !!!!
<dtm> yeah they are
<dtm> i mean, Apple had more to do with internet development than M$
<chillywilly> actually...
<chillywilly> Al Gre created the internet! ;P
<chillywilly> Gore even
<dtm> and that license was only procured after they blatantly stole it
<dtm> good ol Al
<chillywilly> I don't like the republocrats
<chillywilly> libertarian party is interesting
<chillywilly> but Idon't agree on everything there either
<chillywilly> I saw this part's convention on CSPAN-2 http://www.americafirstparty.org
<chillywilly> party's
<dtm> huhm.
<chillywilly> but they want to verturn roe v. wade and they also don't think drugs should be legalized...2 libertarian issues I agree on
<chillywilly> er, that they should not be prohibited
<chillywilly> I don't condone either one, but I don't think they should be make against the law
<chillywilly> just like I would be in opposition of a law making it mandatory that you release software under a Free license
<dtm> hmm
<dtm> yeah 
<dtm> that's wacky
<chillywilly> but ethically all three I do not think should be done
<dtm> i mean that blatantly violates liberty
<dtm> the point is to increase, not reduce choice
<dtm> and if proprietary software is literally the best available choice at the time under the circumstances, then by golly you have to sometimes
<dtm> but one thing that should be mandatory is a review process
<chillywilly> er...I mean I am ethically opposed abortion, drug use, and prop. software
<dtm> a publicly documented review process where they explain exactly why they chose what they chose
<dtm> and if it's important enough, then a public commentary process where the public can comment on it or have time to help find or produce alternatives
<chillywilly> and the gov't could fund a Free alternative?
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> maybe?!?
<dtm> possibly
<dtm> i mean, it's entirely likely that someone in the public could point out something they weren't aware of
<dtm> which would show that they can afford the time and money to do a free one
<dtm> liek for example if another govt agency piped up and said they were already working on it
<dtm> can you imagine how much redundancy there has to be in the federal govt
<dtm> especially because so many decisions are made based on how many JOBS they PRESERVE
<chillywilly> well I think it would be of better value to their constitutents to put money into Free Software development than t waste it on a closed solution
<dtm> and taht finding answers or being expedient, is considered bad
<dtm> yeah if possible in the situatoin...  see that all comes back down to a tight evaluation process i designed when i was at VA
<chillywilly> hmmmphm
<dtm> i was going to post this process to the FD defector list but i think everyone's wanting the ultra conservative (zealous?) perspective of absolutely requiring the internal use and external production of only free software
<chillywilly> sadly, the gov't is hardly run byt the people anymore
<dtm> which would exclude virtually everyone i knwo of, including OST
<dtm> and myself
<dtm> because we *cant* get by that way, due to the choice of the basic industries our personalities and skillsets happen to be suited for
<chillywilly> how does it exclde OST they just have a linking exceptin
<chillywilly> I am sure people could live with that
<dtm> no, see, they have to use proprietary software
<dtm> there's no choice
<dtm> they're in telephony.
<chillywilly> I think they should do it like the GNU Business Network
<dtm> period.
<chillywilly> linking exception
<dtm> they have to use things like Netmeeting
<dtm> they have to prove and sell interoperability
<chillywilly> anywho, gbn wanted to do it based on your contributions or something
<chillywilly> I frget but it made more sense
<dtm> virtually no Real Business can survive on only free software
<dtm> but the consensus of the FD defector list is that they should
<dtm> which might suit the TWO or so people on the list other than myself who actually operate a business
<dtm> for now!
<dtm> until they find an alternate demand
<chillywilly> no, but possibly saying you cannt develop it and be apart of the business alliance is acceptable wouldn't you think?
<dtm> hell no!
<chillywilly> using it != developing it
<dtm> that's like saying you can't walk on red bricks 
<dtm> no it's way more restrictive .. it's more like saying you can't walk on concrete
<chillywilly> the point it to promote free software...there's a mission there
<dtm> so that means i can't enter city hall or the library or virtually anywhere else
<dtm> yeah i know that, and their attitude prevents that point
<dtm> because it's strictly zealous and unrealistic
<dtm> it's totally unreal
<dtm> i'm not exaggerating  :)  anyone who makes a business based on supporting and building reality-changing infrastructure would know that in an instant
<chillywilly> well I think the words were not to "promote" prop. software
<dtm> it's nuts and imho it's wrong
<dtm> well ok i dont mean to go overboard in protesting a basic preliminary discussion...
<chillywilly> sme people here have Free based infratructures
<chillywilly> like jcater
<chillywilly> VP of ncsmags
<dtm> but...  they _did_ say that we should disallow the use and production of all non-free software
<dtm> which virtually can't be done
<dtm> especially in various industries
<chillywilly> using LTSP and GNUe to runa  call center
<chillywilly> and also
<chillywilly> he opended a book store for his wife
<dtm> yeah and even that requires serious effort, so if a person's _situation_ happens to be that they can't afford the time or wahtever to customzie ltsp/gnue to that, then what do they do  :)
<chillywilly> which will use gnue
<chillywilly> hire gnue consultant
<dtm> i looked at gnue and at a glance it appears to be the shit
<dtm> hire???  with what money  :)
<dtm> it takes many people years to build a business to the point where they can even pay themselves let alone hiring others
<dtm> and that's if they're good.
<chillywilly> a lot of here would do it for cheap in order to get the gnue name ut there and get good PR and an endorsement
<dtm> rsb lived in some seroiusly hard times, liek i have been, in order to do it, and we're on the fast track of experience compared to a lot of people
<chillywilly> sme of us are doing gnue solutions for nothing
<dtm> he sure is compared to me
<dtm> if i had to pay anybody anything for any reason, i'm dead
<dtm> that'll be true for months at the bare minimum
<dtm> if i'm unbelievably lucky
<chillywilly> well my poiny was out "payment" is always monetary sir
<chillywilly> point, our
<dtm> actually if i'm lucky i'll keep my car
<dtm> i have *no* idea how i've kept it so far :)
<chillywilly> did you catch that?
<dtm> uhm...  hmm
<dtm> you're saying that early gnue adopters do so on a fundamentally goodwill/grassroots basis
<dtm> which is how i am
<dtm> i've been doing that in terms of groupware
<chillywilly> sme are lucky and get to hack on gnue while they are working at their regular jobs
<chillywilly> sme are not, but they do solutions for nothing depending n who it is for
<chillywilly> like there's a project t do chruch management software
<chillywilly> er, church
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> dewd my mom could help with that
<dtm> she uses Shelby
<chillywilly> I am working on TRIO management system using gnue
<dtm> she despises it with a passion
<dtm> i told her about gnue once i saw it
<chillywilly> http://www.trioprgrams.org
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> http://www.trioprograms.org
<dtm> have you heard of Shelby?
<chillywilly> nope
<dtm> (tm)
<chillywilly> this is a project of da masta and geeks for christ
<dtm> client/server all on windows, which manages the church's membership
<dtm> yessir
<dtm> but you fewlz have to not downplay web services :>
<chillywilly> we don't
<dtm> you have to make a concurrent web display driver
<dtm> da masta does  :\
<chillywilly> the have abstraction layer fr most web service protocols
<dtm> he says he never wants to make another web app again
<chillywilly> xmlrcp, soap, etc.
<dtm> and i'm sure that's somewhat hyperbole but still
<chillywilly> xmlrpc
<dtm> it's so important
<ajmitch> hello all
<dtm> gnue has to go hand in hand with stuff like groupware
<dtm> and other things which are fundamentally web based
<chillywilly> well, appserver should talk to anything by exposing "web services"
Action: ajmitch scrolls up a couple of hours
<dtm> or which at least need an alternate web interface
<chillywilly> anything that uses the rpc absatraction will
<chillywilly> he just means via a browser/php
<dtm> liek for example you often want super fast data entry in a local binary app, but you should have web access later
<chillywilly> we use forms as a front end
<chillywilly> and there's php frms fr those who want that "web app ui" feel
<chillywilly> forms
<dtm> already/
<dtm> ?
<dtm> you can already access all the forms via php?
<chillywilly> masta despises web app ui I think
<dtm> yeah apparently
<chillywilly> jan wrote a whole php forms client
<chillywilly> he is da bizomb
<dtm> asljdlkf
<dtm> well nice
<dtm> ok
<dtm> so
<dtm> what about generalizing it as a general web app platform
<dtm> or collaborative platform/
<dtm> mdean had been waving around about that long ago
<chillywilly> well I believe that leaves it open as a web app platform
<dtm> but when i talked with derek after lwce, he said that gnue has a fundmanetally different model (transactoinal oriented or whatever)
<dtm> and is not optimized for that directly, fwiw
<chillywilly> you make some forms (tie them to the apppserver eventually) voila
<dtm> i dont understand that stuff since i'm not a db designer
<dtm> but i dont see what the difference is
<dtm> it's not like gnue is based on ldap or something *that* optimized.  is it?
<chillywilly> well jan has melded the 2 somehow
<dtm> i mean i understand what he's saying but i'm not sure what it literally means
<chillywilly> the form hits the db
<chillywilly> each "commit" is a transaction
<dtm> coz i mean shizzit   look at all the app framworks out there for web and client/server
<dtm> everything written in java and LAMP
<dtm> it's so ridiculous  there are dozens.
<dtm> all of them allegedly generalized
<chillywilly> web stuff is somewhat transactional too
<dtm> gnue should be such a thing afaict
<chillywilly> you "submit" the form
<dtm> unless i'm grossly mistaken
<dtm> WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY
<chillywilly> you "commit" a transaction
<chillywilly> some frelling thing ;)
<chillywilly> same
<dtm> yeah i dont understand what the difference is
<dtm> i am iggerant
<dtm> SHAPE ME
<dtm> MOLD ME
<dtm> *MAKE* ME UNDERSTAND
<chillywilly> well maybe da masta can clarify next time
<dtm> do youy know what i'm talking about in interpreting what he said?
<dtm> is there any reason why we can't make web based groupware on gnue
<chillywilly> I'm not sure why he draws such a distinction
<dtm> here's another question...  is there any reason why we can't make a *generalized* RAD out of gnue instead of just for database oriented forms?
<chillywilly> I don't see a reason
<dtm> i mean you have a drag-n-drop UI for forms and db stuff...  why can't those widgets be, say, user-oriented or task-oriented or schedule-oriented?
<chillywilly> ummm, gnue designer is supposed to be RAD
<dtm> yes it's RAD but only for a specific type of app as opposed to, say, designing a calendar
<chillywilly> see the appserver will provide objects eventually
<chillywilly> that is very generic
<dtm> can't you just define new kinds of widgets and objects?
<dtm> instead of just forms
<chillywilly> and you don't have to be a db guru then
<dtm> and new kinds of relationships?
<chillywilly> just an object lackey
<chillywilly> http://www.odmg.org
<dtm> basically i'd like to be able to have groupware guts in there, and to drag them around
<chillywilly> is where jan and I would like to take appserver eventually
Action: ajmitch waves to the funny people
<dtm> ajmitch: hi!
<chillywilly> then designer needs a nice object designer
<ajmitch> finally :P
<chillywilly> ell ajmitch
<chillywilly> sorry
<dtm> ajmitch: @)*@KL:S
<chillywilly> ello
Action: dtm pats ajmitch on the head
<dtm> chillywilly: so .. are you saing that these things are prerequisites to what i'm talking about?
Action: ajmitch breaks down & cries
<chillywilly> so essentially you designer your apps using objects and forget about it
<dtm> chillywilly: and if so, then are there any alternative RADs which already exist (like zope or whatever) which are compatible with gnue so we could get started building groupware on your current gnue shizzit?
<dtm> or am i hallucinating
<dtm> i know there exists language-independant IDEs
<chillywilly> still needs to use a db to store them, but I think objects give you the generic thing that you desire
<dtm> such as those which output to php
<chillywilly> I never used zope
<dtm> ok i hope someone's picking up on what i'm saying, sometime later at least, via the irc log
<chillywilly> I dunno about zope
<dtm> chillywilly: but you know that zope is a python based app server right?
<chillywilly> yes
<dtm> chillywilly: there are various IDEs and RADs
<chillywilly> so is the one that the guys that do psp, etc.
<chillywilly> that they developed
<dtm> i just want to know how the heck to easily create a properly architected groupware based on app server technolgoies which ALREADY EXIST
<chillywilly> webware guys
<chillywilly> they have an appserver too
<dtm> hear me now and believe me later:  i will not tolerate having another NIH-spurned groupware suite
<dtm> i dont even want to bother with a rewrite of phpgroupware
<chillywilly> well I dunno if anyone has a designer like we do
<dtm> and i dont care what new statically-minded technology it's named after :)
<dtm> even if it's xmlgroupware
<chillywilly> I am not aware f any RAD environments
<dtm> no point in reinventing that afaict
<dtm> someone please tell me if i'm mistaken
<chillywilly> an appserver alone isn't a RAD environment
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah
<dtm> well
<dtm> my point is that there are RADs and there are appservers
<dtm> there are massive app frameworks
<dtm> and they're based on FSF-compatible technology and licenses
<dtm> even if some aren't GNU
<chillywilly> yep
<dtm> they're LGPL/GPL
<dtm> they're on the list ;>
<chillywilly> we have so much code and time invested in ur framework
<chillywilly> I dunno who has the time to adapt to an existing one
<dtm> i care about an expedient FSF-compatible enterprise quality groupware, more than i care about being a GNU project (unfortunately) and than i care about staying with the inertia i've already built up
<chillywilly> or if it would ever make sense to throw away our stuff ther than picking some existing appserver
<dtm> because such a ridiculously massive amount of my intertia has been wasted because phpgroupware is state of the art as far as free groupware, but it's not state of the art in terms of app services
<chillywilly> since that's the only piece being reworked once again
<dtm> it sucks less... that's about it...  it would suck a lot less if groupware developers were magically granted a kick ass framework to start with
<chillywilly> well they also do not wish to invest time into gnue integration
<chillywilly> I talked with them
<dtm> well
<chillywilly> they wanted ti use us in a backasswards way
<dtm> that's their problem then, isn't it?
<dtm> wait
<chillywilly> and this is why mdean said he was not ging t go their way but come with us
<dtm> seek3r has slightly reopened somewhat to the idea of moving toward gnue's direction, one way or another
<dtm> but still!
<dtm> that's a bit of a leap
<dtm> and also he's gone completely off into security instead of gruopware
<chillywilly> ok
<dtm> he stopped his groupware operation
<dtm> s
<chillywilly> well this was all many moons ago
<dtm> i'm sure he could do some great stuff now but nobody can just go reinventing major app frameworks
<dtm> and they certainly can't please everyone
<chillywilly> indeed
<dtm> furthermore
<dtm> all the technology at the root *has* to be FSF compatible
<dtm> which gnue is
<chillywilly> we are strict in that we make people assign coopyright to FSF also
<dtm> so i'm afraid that even if java stuff was more currently suited to my personal needs, and even if i use it for my client's demands, i can't advocate a complete community movement on it
<chillywilly> and we only release under GPL
<dtm> not based on -- DEPENDANT upon -- java.  there's no way i could ask them to do it and there's no way FSF-minded people would comply anyway
<dtm> fruthermore
<chillywilly> but I really shoul finally finish this object format markup fr the appserver as I am dman sick of typing all this xml by hand and want to get my GParser based parser going :P
<dtm> the only FSF-compatible alternative to the excellent enterprise quality stuff that's being done in java today, is in LAMP
<dtm> which is strong but is not ubiquitous enough
<dtm> for example it's web-only
<dtm> so people liek derek wouldn't lik eit  :>
<dtm> and that's important
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> some aspects of groupware are gonna be wicked tedious as web-only
<dtm> even if it's only for certain users
<dtm> like mass data entery
<dtm> entry
<dtm> like how about a major sales force who collects shitloads of business cards per month
<dtm> they'd have to give their piles of cards to an assistant who scans em into a windows parallel port card scanner, corrects em in a proprietary program, standardizes all the fields, then exports to csv and imports into the CRM
<chillywilly> well I think this is where gnue intergrator comes in
<dtm> and
<chillywilly> so you can prime the pump
<dtm> that leads to another point
<dtm> this is important!
<dtm> there are areas where groupware and enterprise blend SUCH AS CRM
<chillywilly> if I have my gnue architecture correctly in mind
<dtm> aselkjja;j
<dtm> i hope someone else can summarize this -- bless your soul, whoever you are
<dtm> otherwise maybe i can later
<dtm> i've got massive ideas brewing
Action: chillywilly wants to do CRM badly for the law firm his mom works at
<dtm> HURTS MUH BRANE
<chillywilly> his name is PSU
<dtm> yes psu
<dtm> HI PSU
<chillywilly> and he does a damn god job at summarizing :)))
<dtm> POWER SUPPLY UNIT
<dtm> dear psu
<dtm> yes i've seen
<dtm> very devout
<dtm> takes one to know one
<chillywilly> we love you psuu!!!
<dtm> jesh we dew!
<chillywilly> peeeee-essssse-yeeeeewwww
<dtm> ok
<dtm> here's another question
<chillywilly> plz!
<chillywilly> no more!
<dtm> let's say that something like gnue was generalized like i said, so that it could be the ultimate framework in the universe
<chillywilly> I can't take anymore!
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: dtm persists!
<dtm> then what happens to all the java stuf?F
<chillywilly> who cares?
<chillywilly> ;)
<dtm> can stuff like j2ee be made to sit atop gnue?  or only interoperate via message passing
<dtm> like soap/xmlrpc
<dtm> coudl tomcat and jboss sit on gnue
<dtm> or something?
<chillywilly> I dunno j2ee framework, but it could always talk via rpc
<dtm> or am i just stretching the state of the art beyond recognition?
<chillywilly> you are a man on a missin
<dtm> SO ABSTRACT   SHE CANNA TAKE NO MORE
<chillywilly> mission too
Action: dtm strains under the abstraction!
Action: dtm fades out
<dtm> chillywilly:  i need answers, man!
<chillywilly> eventually
<chillywilly> I think all our components/servers will be web enabled and export remote interfaces
<dtm> and BELIEVE ME i will antagonize you peopel until i get them.  so it will be MUCH EASIER for all of us if someone just figures out the engineering requirements for me  :)
<chillywilly> via our absatraction layer
<dtm> ok, when?
<dtm> that's a start
<chillywilly> when it is dman ready ;)
<dtm> ok
<dtm> when can we start obsoleting phpgw?
<dtm> which can't be all that hard on the surface assuming the guts are ready
<dtm> assuming that you support groupware-like data structures
<chillywilly> are you volunteering?
<dtm> and then simply export it to the web via a standard gnue web output, like maybe a php display driver similar to the current wxwindows stuff
<dtm> no way; that would require seriuos engineering
<dtm> i mean, programming
<dtm> i can't even do ridiculous programming
<chillywilly> perhaps you should talk with mdean when he can return to gnue/dcl intergration work
<dtm> unlesss..   is there a gnue interface to Applesoft or Atari BASIC??!?!
<dtm> yeah where the heck is he
<dtm> he's the one.
<chillywilly> but I am not sure wtf is going on there
<dtm> MDEAN
<chillywilly> talk to da masta
Action: dtm screams mdean's name into the wind
<chillywilly> he's in bed with mdean, dcl, and gnue :P
<dtm> ooh, cozy
<dtm> well that's a mighty big bed, mister
<dtm> i hope it's not a waterbed but i'm all for a slumber party
<chillywilly> you have seen da masta in person right?
<dtm> yeah twice
<ajmitch> heh, only a few days ago, right?
<chillywilly> does he not need a big bed? ;)
<dtm> i just spent an evening with him and drove him to the airport
<dtm> oh maybe a queen at least  :> 
<chillywilly> lol
<ajmitch> nobody here spends any time with me :'(
<dtm> then i dont know where his wife will go  :)
Action: chillywilly loves ajmitch all up
<dtm> WE LOVE YOU AJMITCH
Action: ajmitch sobs
<dtm> :-o
<dtm> chillywilly: lol
Action: ajmitch is disturbed now
<chillywilly> lol
<dtm> h0h0
<ajmitch> when are y'all gonna come to NZ & visit?
<dtm> when i'm rich & famous
<dtm> so do my bidding!
<dtm> now!
<ajmitch> you're infamous now
<dtm> oh yeah.
<dtm> that's a start.
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-08-17-008-26-OP-CY-PB-0015
<dtm> they say that any publicity is good publicity but i'm not sure.
<chillywilly> an oreilly comment
<chillywilly> I love rufus
<ajmitch> what crack be this?
<chillywilly> his comments are always great
<ajmitch> i need food
<ajmitch> too poor
<chillywilly> d yu have paypal ajmitch?
<chillywilly> or something
<ajmitch> no
<chillywilly> I will seriously send yo sme money
<ajmitch> why would i have paypal?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<chillywilly> naive at one point in your life?
<dtm> ajmitch: what's this about food?
<chillywilly> ;P
<dtm> chillywilly: hehehe
<ajmitch> dtm: i'm hungry :P
<chillywilly> are you broke?
Action: ajmitch will wait until wednesday or so
<dtm> ajmitch: you can afford food, right?
<ajmitch> chillywilly: for the next couple of days
<chillywilly> probably not
<ajmitch> and then i'll have $$
<chillywilly> gah
<dtm> ajmitch: if you can't afford food then you should go to your church pantry
<ajmitch> have got some food here :)
<dtm> that's what i've been doing occasoinally
<dtm> that's exactly what it's for
<ajmitch> ouch
<chillywilly> there ya go
Action: dtm slaps ajmitch
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Action: ajmitch wonders why paypal is considered a good thing
<chillywilly> it is not
<chillywilly> they sucj
<chillywilly> suck
<chillywilly> they double dip all the time if you use them
<chillywilly> and I only used it once :P
<ajmitch> yucky
Action: chillywilly uese USPS eBillPay to pay bills
Action: ajmitch needs to get searching for a piece of paper
<chillywilly> btw, dtm I know a guy who runs his own consulting business that is looking t hire someone ;P
<chillywilly> he's in my LUG
<chillywilly> I won't take it because our philosphies do not jive
Action: ajmitch has a job tomorrow
<ajmitch> sigh...
<chillywilly> ?
<ajmitch> trying to fix up a winders pc
<chillywilly> I don't think we'd get along too well
<chillywilly> blah
<ajmitch> lots fun
<chillywilly> he used the ever lovely statement of, "I am running a business here not a charity"
<dtm> heheh ookay
<chillywilly> I find it highly ironic when he uses gnu/linux
<ajmitch> he calls it that?
<dtm> chillywilly: well if you're going to pass up work then ....  ok!
<chillywilly> if it wasn't for various people's "charity" he might not be in business
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<chillywilly> ajmitch: of course not
<dtm> chillywilly: what prompted him to say that
<dtm> is he being beligerant or hat
<dtm> what
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> we're still friends and all
<dtm> yeah but what's the context
<chillywilly> he was just like, "don't come asking me for a job if that is how you feel"
<dtm> if what's how you feel
Action: chillywilly made a similar comment about putting freedom first
<chillywilly> my usual rhetoric
<chillywilly> plz, dtm, let's not get into a fight about this plzzzz
<dtm> yeah but you make abstract arm-waving comments about stuff all the time, without regard to how to literally implement it in a real situation  :)  or what to do when it's impossible to implement given the situational constraints  :)  so i'm not sure if he's being unreasonable or what  :)
<chillywilly> it's not worth it
Action: ajmitch grabs the popcorn
<dtm> well yeah of course
<ajmitch> fight! fight!
Action: ajmitch watches the cage lower on the 2 opponents
Action: dtm dips ajmitch in butter flavoring
<dtm> hey let's beat up on ajmitch now.
<chillywilly> dtm: I was just letting him know where I stand and I did it in a tactful manner...I am learning
<ajmitch> nah, chillywilly does that all the time
<chillywilly> do not
<ajmitch> do too
<chillywilly> I haven't picked on you in forveer
<ajmitch> where all the time == at least once every 6 months
<chillywilly> I have been nice to you as of late I am turning over a new leaf
<ajmitch> and dtm subjects me to horrific abuse, constantly :)
<ajmitch> but the leaves will start to fall soon
Action: chillywilly loves up ajmitch some more
<dtm> i do my best humanly possible to put implementational freedom first...  and if i do my best but still i absolutely can't reliably do it or am not allowed, then i'll have documented the process and have educated anyone on what i really think as long as they can comprehend it without misconstruing me as a zealot.
<dtm> but some people just can't take it
<dtm> or even if they can, they CHANGE THEIR MINDS LATER
<dtm> even if they agree with me, they might see my commitment as a risk
<dtm> even if i've relegated myself to digging their ditches for them
<dtm> and even the good ones can turn two faced on ya
<chillywilly> dtm: I was out of line when I said what I said in #freedevelopers...I scoured lgs for hours and found what you were referring to
<chillywilly> I am sorry
<chillywilly> I am stupid
<dtm> so "in business" you often have to stick to purely the observable facts, like costs and TCO and protecting investements or whatever
<chillywilly> ajmitchie had logs
<dtm> chillywilly: awwwwww    CHEELEEEE
<dtm> COME TO ME CHEEEELEEE
Action: dtm hugs chillywilly as brethren often do
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> i had logs?
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> remember?
Action: ajmitch fjears
<dtm> i tell you what, i speak as someone who WALKED OUT on VA stock....   i know what it's like to fiercely stick to my guns to prove something, but i drew a line.  i considered VA to be the final confrontation in terms of raw unabashed idealism
<ajmitch> i know that i have logs for like the last year or so, but i cannot recall what was said :)
<chillywilly> ok, mr. smarty pants
<dtm> if i had simply been willing to install vmware and M$ office on the linux workstations of "The Linux Company" i would have had hundreds of thousands of dollars of stock
<dtm> and iknew that
<dtm> and i told her flat out "No.  That's stupid."
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> i refused to tolerate it anymore
<chillywilly> well we all know VA is a big fat sellout anyway ;P
<chillywilly> now a days
<dtm> and i have no regrets about that, because ... some experiences are worth it.  and that was my personal experience of toeing the line and walking away.
<dtm> it's like i had some youthful endurance run to prove, so i did
<dtm> and i knew that when i was faced with indomitable greed and ignorance in exchange for wealth, i knew what i was made of.
<chillywilly> well, that story does warm my heart :)
<dtm> i didn't do it to be a jerk
<dtm> i did it because it was right
<dtm> it would have been far easier to have installed Windows.
<dtm> far far far far easier at that point
<dtm> easier to do linux the right way, but easier to do windows the wrong way
<dtm> if we could have architected the network the way we wanted/needed to, linux desktops wuld have stayed dominanet
<dtm> dominant
<dtm> well see
<dtm> somehow deep down, i knew i'd have to be accountable to people like you guys in the future and that i'd want proof
<chillywilly> they don't have "Linux" in the name anymore anyway ;P
<chillywilly> VA Software!
<dtm> i knew i'd have to prove to someone and show them why i know i believe what i'm saying.  and i think that kind of act is a token of that belief.
<chillywilly> wooooo
<chillywilly> well, I know I am a stubborn...
<dtm> so that even when i do things like promote proprietary solutions, you can know that it's a temporary stopgap because it can't be reasonably done otherwise, and i'm learning how to either reimplement it in free software or else eventually get away from it.
<chillywilly> good to hear
<dtm> rsb and i are going to work on a way to basically GPL a company's internal operations too
<dtm> we've each independantly worked on that
<chillywilly> a GPL'd business model?
<dtm> yeah i'm stubborn too and in that case it paid off in my own terms, although i was unemployed for a long while
<ajmitch> you'll have trouble replacing that conferencing stuff of yours
<dtm> coz then i extended my idealism to only wanting to work for Apple, and TELLING everyone that.  so of course they didn't hire me.
<dtm> ajmitch: oh yeah definately
<dtm> rsb and i are already working on replacing my fax/voice gateway
<dtm> even on my first quote
Action: chillywilly was just going t ask about those guys and cnferencing
<chillywilly> s/t/to/
<dtm> i'm on my first quote for it, and already OST's solution beat mine so i'm going to resell OST if this goes through
<chillywilly> my 'o' key doesn't work very well
<dtm> i didn't even send them my own reseller service
<dtm> yeah conferencing is wicked hard
<dtm> my partners use boxes costing $50,000 apiece
<chillywilly> servers?
<dtm> telephony servers
<chillywilly> shit it's 5am
<dtm> big ass conference bridges
<chillywilly> oooh
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> big ol' thangs
<ajmitch> nice
<chillywilly> meridian and the like?
<ajmitch> how much will your stuff cost?
Action: chillywilly has seen a phone system r 2
<chillywilly> s/r/or/
<dtm> even if it was possible for OST to replace that, it would also cost a fortune and who could afford to build an ASP on that :)
<dtm> dont know if it's meridian
<chillywilly> well they make one of the phone system that I see all the time
<ajmitch> dtm: and the network?
<dtm> it makes sense to use their expensive ASP per minute
<chillywilly> big ol box
<dtm> and those servers are bridged to other systems..  they can archive or webcast the whole thing
<dtm> and merge it with video
<dtm> it's insane
<dtm> i dont know how they do it
<dtm> they can record fullscreen WebEx sessions, which even webex doesn't do
<chillywilly> multimedia stuff is whacked
<chillywilly> ;P
<dtm> extremely expensive and difficult
Action: chillywilly wonders if you could do gstreamer conferencing
<dtm> especially telephony (realtime)
<chillywilly> ajmitch?
<ajmitch> what?
<chillywilly> think it is possible or you need a lot more code t be written?
<ajmitch> ask in #gstreamer
<chillywilly> to sue gstreamer in a conferencing app
<chillywilly> er, use
Action: chillywilly doesn't want to sue anyone ;)
<dtm> one cool thing is that OST has made it so that M$ Netmeeting can do an audio conference with its GNOME counterpart
<dtm> that's pretty cool
<chillywilly> GnomeMeeting?
<dtm> i guess so
<dtm> we demo'd that at DEF CON
<dtm> it's all about the baby steps
<dtm> but i mean even if you had a big web/video reflector ASP with plenty of internet throughput, for all those conferencing peers, you'd have to have some complex error compensation stuff
<dtm> voip would maybe be easier in some ways
<dtm> whereas web conferencing slides would be easier in others
<dtm> webex just has like a meter for your internet health
<dtm> and it scales down each component of the h.323 conference, automatically.  even on a modem
<dtm> so like your video goes at 3 fps so that your slides will still turn
<dtm> and all of this is one single solid encrypted stream via tcp port 80
<dtm> perfectly firewall-proof
<chillywilly> h.323 sunds like a real complicated thing
<dtm> it's insanely cmplex
<dtm> rsb feeerz it
<chillywilly> what about dave?
<chillywilly> does he also ph34r it?
<chillywilly> did they ever start the GNU Comm meta project?
<dtm> dewd it includes voip, remote desktop display, sharing of all specific document types (anyting you can print, plus particular controls like slideshow buttons), video, whiteboarding, ... and that's just the stuff webex supports.  h.323 includes even more.  such as realtime facial movements of avatars to complement voip.
<dtm> i cant believe it
<dtm> i had no idea even when he explained it 2 weeks ago
<dtm> whiteboarding == everyone scribbles with a transparent highlighter marker on top of your slides or shared desktop apps
<dtm> i have no idea how all this is possible
<dtm> gnu comm exists although i dont know what it is
<dtm> dont know about dave although he himself is ph34rable
<dtm> from what i've herad
<dtm> heard
<chillywilly> :-D
<dtm> i've never worked with dave since he's in delaware
<chillywilly> he's a damn good hacker
<dtm> i've hung out a tad with Martin
<dtm> and i've worked a lot with rsb and his brother john (aka bodoman)
<chillywilly> how do they run a company when they don't even live near each other?
<dtm> i shopped at their brother Martin's stores, Disk Drive Depot (he also wrote the Hard Drive Bible)
<chillywilly> dave is eats coast and rsb is west cst right?
<chillywilly> east
<dtm> yeah
<chillywilly> how do they do it?
<dtm> voip!
<dtm> a really good intranet
<dtm> VPNs
<dtm> lots of voip
<dtm> they have unlimited calling for $40/mo
<dtm> to anywhere in the US
<dtm> it sounds like an analog cell phone, which is fine
<dtm> until someone starts looking at a web page
<dtm> they'll have that prioritized soon
<chillywilly> so does one work one coast and one the other?
<chillywilly> getting clients and such
<dtm> rsb is in sunnyvale, CA and martin is somewhere in CA and dave is in delaware afaik
<dtm> i dunno
<dtm> i think by now they have a strong referral network
<dtm> i haven't heard of them needing to, say, fly anywhere
<chillywilly> which means what?
<dtm> well they have a good reputation
<chillywilly> customers come to them?
<dtm> they ahve repeat customers and referrals
<dtm> somewhat
<chillywilly> ok
<dtm> i'll need to get reacquainted again
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Action: drochaid is back (gone 08:14:43)
<chillywilly> night
<drochaid> morning
<chillywilly> Sun Aug 18 06:10:41 CDT 2002
<chillywilly> yea, I guess technically it is morning
<chillywilly> but I haven't slept yet
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<psu> anyone awake?
Action: psu will take that as a No
Action: drochaid is awake
<psu> hi drochaid
<drochaid> allo
<psu> actually, I was looking for a sysadmin type being
<drochaid> uhm .. not me then :)
<psu> as my ash p/w is b0rked
<drochaid> ash, I should know that ..
<psu> ash == the gnuenterprise web-and-everything-else-server
<psu> well, except for CVS (on savannah)
<psu> and the mail lists (on mail.gnu.org)
<psu> and the "other" website at www.gnu.org/projects/gnue/
<psu> Distributed systems, yeah, that sounds good ;-)
<drochaid> ahh, I was thinking of another ash :)
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Action: psu is away: ST:v + wife
Action: dneighbo is back (gone 10:06:25)
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<drochaid> heya dneighbo
<dneighbo> yoyoyo wassup
<jcater> werd
<drochaid> uhm .. not a lot, writing marketing material and, err, that's it
<drochaid> you?
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<lupo> hi jcater
<jcater> hi
<lupo> do you know whether i can copy a CVS pserver checkout to another machine and still be able to make a cvs update on that new machine?
<jcater> I'm pretty sure you can
<lupo> hm ... because it doesn't work here (gnue cvs)
<jcater> hrm
<lupo> wtf
<lupo> i made cvs -t update -d
<lupo> -t means "be verbose"
<lupo> and he tells me he's sending _every_ file to the cvs server
<lupo> hm. how does cvs know whether a file was modified or not?
Action: lupo is an idiot. scp has changed the date of the files ...
<lupo> scp -prC helps :)
Action: psu is back
<lupo> anything heard from jan or reinhard about appserver status?
<jcater> not i
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<lupo> yo jamest
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<lupo> reinhard!
<reinhard> hello
<reinhard> back again
<lupo> reinhard: what is currently going on with appserver?
<reinhard> lupo: i have returned from a 2-weeks holiday
<reinhard> about 30 minutes ago
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> ah
<lupo> ah, i hope you enjoyed it :)
<jamest> a GNUe addict
<jamest> only home for 30min and already online
<lupo> 2 weeks without GNUe dope :)
<psu> reinhard: KCs are up for you to catch up from ;-)
<reinhard> jamest: how true :)
<reinhard> psu: thanks!!
<lupo> reinhard: btw, both jan and you are about 350-450km away from me, so there is a chance that we could set up a gnue hack meeting (esp. for appserver)
<reinhard> lupo: sure
<reinhard> however i'd like to "really" come home first before i leave again ;-)
<lupo> of course :)
<lupo> i just thought that 2-5 days of appserver hacking could bring it really forward. besides, three people with a flipchart and a lot of good intentions can really make sth. work :)
Action: dneighbo is scared to have 4 german engineers hacking in room on GNUe at same time ;)
<dneighbo> er german/austrian
<drochaid> same thing
Action: drochaid hides
<lupo> hey!
<psu> drochaid: yeah, and we so enjoy your cute ENglish accent...
<lupo> which accent?
Action: drochaid mutters something in gaelic about psu and a sheep
<psu> drochaid: german == austrian just like english == scottish
<psu> baa!
<drochaid> :)
<lupo> i wouldn't precisely compare austrian and scottish
<psu> austrians don't eat sheep's stomachs and pretend it's a delicacy, for a start
<lupo> erm
<lupo> if you say so
<lupo> to resume to the intial topic, why you're scared when 4 german engineers go on to hack something?
<lupo> you=dneighbo
<drochaid> psu: but we don't fill an intestine with blood and call THAT food
<drochaid> and since when was haggis ever called a delicacy@
<drochaid> ?
<drochaid> it was made to use all the remaining scraps left over
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<psu> hi cw
<chillywilly> hi
<chillywilly> http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/08/15/020815hnperenshp.xml
Action: chillywilly peers at reinhard
Action: chillywilly rubs his eyes
<chillywilly> is that you?!?
<reinhard> yep
<chillywilly> how are you doing sir?
<reinhard> fine
<reinhard> relaxed
<chillywilly> that's good to hear
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<chillywilly> hi
<psu>  hi
Action: chillywilly is reading about scientology and how screwed up L. Ron Hubbard was...wow, this guy was s whacked
<psu> is there a quick way to search & replace text recursively thru directories from cmd line?
<psu> sorta like grep --with-update?
<psu> or do i need to ask a perl hacker?
<chillywilly> yo could hack together a shell script and use sed
<psu> true
<chillywilly> might even be able to concoct a one liner using find and sed
<chillywilly> or find, xargs and sed
<reinhard> something like
<reinhard> find . -type f -exec sed -e's/oldtext/newtext/g' \{\} > /tmp/xyz && mv /tmp/xyz \{\} \;
<reinhard> (not tested, use with care)
<chillywilly> yea, like that
<chillywilly> you sure you need to espace the {}?
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> otherwise bash interpretes it
<chillywilly> why does this work then: find . -type f -exec echo {} \;?
<reinhard> that works?
<chillywilly> yep
<reinhard> works for me, too
<reinhard> maybe it depends on the shell you use
<chillywilly> find . -type f -exec chmod 644 {} 
<reinhard> and \{\} is safe
<chillywilly> \;
<chillywilly> is a common thing I do
<chillywilly> yea I suppose
<chillywilly> cause the {} are used in variable jnk
<chillywilly> ${VAR}
<chillywilly> stiff like that
<chillywilly> stuff
<reinhard> and in function definitions i think
<chillywilly> yep, that too
<chillywilly> btw, I am using bash ;)
<chillywilly> that last part may not work though as the {} don't have any meaning in a simple mv command d they?
<chillywilly> ohw ait that will still be part of the exec
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<chillywilly> hi jcater
<jcater> hi
<psu> reinhard: chillywilly: thanks
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Action: dneighbo finally has working 802.11b in house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<ajmitch> yay
Action: drochaid sits outside dneighbos house and plays
<drochaid> allo dneighbo, ajmitch
<dneighbo> hello
<dneighbo> drochaid: its ok i like to share :)
<drochaid> heh
Action: ajmitch plots
<nickr> I have working 802.11b also
<nickr> aynone can come over and use our massive bandwidth
<nickr> its 'manly' and 'ferocious'
<nickr> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/data/pictures/photos/2002-july-28/10.html
seme|Home2 (~jrizzo@dsl081-194-200.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<seme|Home2> hi guys
<seme|Home2> hey guys... whats going on with GNUe... I downloaded and installed all the packages but it doesn't actually seem to be very functional... is what is available in the /downloads section very old?
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> if you grabbed the 0.3.0 release of things its rather functional
<dneighbo> what did you try to do with it?
<dneighbo> the gnue tools (what are in the downloads) are just that tools
<dtm> dneighbo: werd
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: I'm just learning how it all works... I have been reading 
<seme|Home2> but
<seme|Home2> I haven't been able to get it to do much yet... 
<dneighbo> what have you TRIED to do with it
<seme|Home2> its not necessarily a deficiency with GNUe... :)
<seme|Home2> he hee
<dneighbo> for example running gnue-forms
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: I'm working on getting the financils stuff working 
<dneighbo> would be less than an exciting experience if you didnt have gfd's
<seme|Home2> to see how comprehensive it is
<dneighbo> and w/o database driven gfd's its really boring
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: I clicked on the financials section of the web page but it doesn't have anything to download
<seme|Home2> am I completely missing something
<dneighbo> gnue-designer should be fun to run w/o gfd's, but with out a database it would get boring quick too ;)
<dneighbo> we have no 'shrink wrap applications' to date
<dneighbo> we have the tools done (some of them)
<dneighbo> so that you could build a financials package
<dneighbo> which is probably why you are less than thrilled :)
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: hrm...
<seme|Home2> does dcl actually integrate with GNUe or is it just a php programm that sits outside the whole structure of gnue?
<dneighbo> nickr: if you are gonna post all sorts of nifty art pictures can you do me a favor
<seme|Home2> I didn't see how it used any of the GNUe stuff at all
<dneighbo> please zoom in on a nice fresh piece of pepperoni pizza and snap a shot
<ajmitch> don't mention food!
<dneighbo> then when im hungry i can just go to a book mark of that and be in my happy place
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: where do I get those gfd's you were talking about
<dneighbo> dcl currently is part of GNUe
<dneighbo> it is being CONVERTED to use the GNUe application framework
<dneighbo> the most current versions do not reflect this
<dneighbo> cvs has .gfd files started for DCL usage
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: hrm... so should I even work with anything other than whats in CVS?
<dneighbo> http://gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_account.png
<dneighbo> http://gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_departments.png
<dneighbo> are some samples of what dcl would look like in gnue framework
<dneighbo> seme|Home2: for dcl i would use stable and not cvs
<nickr> dneighbo: thats not really an art pictrue, its my WAP
<dneighbo> as cvs head is brutalized right now to get some contact management stuff bolted on
<dneighbo> nickr: i hit next for about 10-15 times
<nickr> oh
<nickr> hehe
<dneighbo> and saw more 'art' close up photography stuff
<dneighbo> i saw a keyboard with a plate on it
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: hrm.. so it looks like GNUe is really not even close to being usable right now? would that be a safe statement?
<nickr> dneighbo: there are an 'assload' of images
<dneighbo> and though nice picture
<nickr> dneighbo: if you go up a level
<nickr> dneighbo: sorted by day
<dneighbo> but a true masterpiece would have had pizza on that plate ;)
<dneighbo> seme|Home2: absolutely UNSAFE statement
<dneighbo> GNUe is highly usable right now
<dneighbo> it just depends on WHAT your view as a user is
<dneighbo> if you are a developer looking to build business applications GNUe is nice and usable for you right now today
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: I'm a developer but I want to put together a system for a small company that I'm working with
<nickr> dneighbo: the crazy thing is that the picture with my keyboard in it, theres a paper plate that probably had pizza on it
<dneighbo> if you are an end user looking to download say the financials package and run it with doing anything then no GNUe isnt ready for you today
<dneighbo> nickr: :)
<dneighbo> seme|Home2: it sounds as though GNUe would be quite usable to you then
<seme|Home2> dneighbo: ok I'm going to work on it a lot more and see what I can do with it
<seme|Home2> :)
<dneighbo> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/data/pictures/photos/2002-july-28/20.html
<dneighbo> you mean you had pizza on my birthday and didnt invite me? 
Action: dneighbo is deeply wounded
<nickr> I had no idea it was your birthday
<drochaid> dneighbo: I mailed you a pizza, did it reach you nice'n'hot all the way from Scotland? :)
<dneighbo> drochaid: seeing how its like 110 or so here, pizza via mail would be hot
<drochaid> heh
<nickr> hah
--- Mon Aug 19 2002