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<SachaS> hi everyone.
<SachaS> ajmitch are you here?
<Remosi> haven't heard from him all day
<SachaS> ok. he will get the message then: today i was at a australian governement meeting. they are keen to get a ebXML registry/repository pilot project.
<SachaS> to enable australian companies to get registered.
<SachaS> One of ebXML goals is to get SMEs Small to Medium Enterprises hooked up to electronic business.
<SachaS> Now the problem is: SMEs use their "beloved" SME software (myob in australia) and are not keen to change their system in order to participate with ebXML.
<SachaS> So the idea is: Bring ebXML to the SMEs be providing a toolbox to their beloved SME software.
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<SachaS> Their beloved SME software is a running commercial GNUe with many features :) 
<SachaS> So keep going to develop GNUe and one day someone will add the tools to allow ebXML behind the scene.
<SachaS> :)
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<SachaS> hi reinhard
<SachaS> i will invite you for coffee in january 2003, how about that?
<reinhard> SachaS: hi
<reinhard> SachaS: good :)
<SachaS> OK. cool. will call you when I get there.
<SachaS> bye
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<Arturas> Hello
<ajmitch> hi
<Arturas> ajmitch: have you tried cvs version with latest updates? (the ones of Aug 24)
<ajmitch> mo
<ajmitch> no
<Arturas> then don't update - it's broken :/
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<steveb> are there any app server hackers here?
<Arturas> i guess no - they should be asleep now...
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<reinhard> steveb: i'm here
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<ajmitch> hi
<lupo> hi ajmitch
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<steveb> reinhard: are you aware of PyDO, and could it be used as a data source in the app server?
<steveb> its seriously nice. a bit like WebObject's Enterprise Objects, but without the chicken sacrificing voodoo
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<ajmitch_> yo
<steveb> hey ajmitch
<ajmitch_> sup steveb?
<ajmitch_> being nosy about appserver, eh? :)
<reinhard> steveb: i haven't heard about PyDO
<reinhard> what is it?
<ra3vat> hi all
<ra3vat> reinhard: there is also Persistent-SIG created among other python's sigs
Action: reinhard has been out of touch with GNUe for too long :(
<steveb> reinhard: http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/pydo.html it allows you to hide database access behind python objects, but in a way which is quite powerful and flexible
<steveb> I'm thinking that PyDO + SkunkWeb + ZSI (Soap server/client) + pygtk + pylibglade would make a nice ERP platform
<steveb> which could work on *nix, osx and win32
<reinhard> steveb: thanks for the link
<reinhard> i'll look at it
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<Isomer> ajmitch: did you get Sachas message?
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> was working today, playing with a new box now
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<Arturas> good morning :)
<ajmitch> hi
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<Arturas> good morning :)
<jcater> morning
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<siesel> hi guys!
<Arturas> hello Jan :)
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<siesel> hi awful_house
<awful_house> hello
<siesel> Was it you using wlan-ng equipment?
<awful_house> yeah
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<siesel> did it work for you now? Or did you even get the debian package system working for you?
<stbain> greetz
<siesel> hi stbain
<awful_house> i havent tried
<awful_house> too chicken
<awful_house> everytim e i try the wireless card
<awful_house> it works for a bit then dies
<awful_house> and then i spend an hour trying to get old card to work again :(
<siesel> which kernel version do you use?
<awful_house> pcmcia on debian is black voodoo to me still
<awful_house> kernel 2.4.18
<awful_house> i can get the wireless card up generally
<siesel> I had similar problems on a desktop with an PCI to PCMCIA adapter.
<awful_house> sometimes it stays up for 5min sometimes an hour
<awful_house> then it dies and sometimes restarting services fixes sometimes not
<awful_house> its almost like an IRQ problem or something
<siesel> But after switching to kernel pcmcia it worked well
<awful_house> i have bf2.4.18 i think and the pcmcia header stuff
<awful_house> im not at that machine so im not certain
<awful_house> if there is better way im open to suggestion :)
<siesel> i.e. you've used the orinoco driver, right?
<awful_house> im using the orinoco driver
<awful_house> thats one that works but after some time fails
<awful_house> my particular card has drivers but they are a bitch
<awful_house> basically they want you to get wlan-ng
<awful_house> then they have a 'patch' you can apply to it
<awful_house> and compile and such
<awful_house> it looked painful so i stopped (the instructions were for redhat only)
<awful_house> and had pointers to linuxconf and requested you do reallly evil things
<awful_house> since i need this computer to work i decided to leave it alone and just not have wireless for a bit
<awful_house> maybe get a new card
<awful_house> though after seeing someone elses cheapy router
<awful_house> im thinking maybe i should return my wireless one and wait until a better model comes around
<siesel> Waiting for a better model is allways an option. But normaly I can't wait :)
<siesel> compiling wlan-ng is not as difficult as it sounds to be.
<siesel> And it will be getting more and more easy if that ****** debian packaging works.
<siesel> At the moment you just install the linux-wlan-ng package, use make-kpkg to compile and install your kernel, run the wlan-ng setup and you have a running and quite stable system.
<Arturas> sometimes :)
<Arturas> bye :)
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<siesel> Hi fixe
<awful_house> i refuse to run custom kernels
<awful_house> i have enough issues with standard gnu/linux stuff
<awful_house> i dont need to add custom stuff that makes it impossible to get support ;)
<siesel> if you get the kernel_headers AND the pcmcia_cs headers/source you possibly still can compile the linux-wlan-ng stuff
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<fixe> hi siesel
<fixe> siesel: i understand you work on the gnue appserver?
<siesel> kind of :)
<fixe> what do you mean kind of? :)
<fixe> can you tell me a little about the appserver? what language it is in, why gnue decided to write their own, what were other app servers lacking? how far along is the project?
<siesel> 1. its in python 
<fixe> i am just curious, i work on phpgroupware (via axisgroupware) and am exploring other groupware/appserver projects
<siesel> 2. its in early alpha stage, i.e. quite functional but lacking some important feature like transactions etc.
<siesel> What kind of appserver are you searching for? What are the requirements you want to have fulfilled? 
<fixe> mainly scalability and interoperability
<fixe> mainly my concern is phpgroupware (due to php) will not scale to enterprise level 
<siesel> that are two "must haves"
<fixe> so idealy it would be nice to have phpgw as a front end for an enterprise app server
<fixe> can python scale? how are you handling that?
<fixe> i know little to nothing about python
<siesel> Our app server project aims to become an enterprise app server, but it just started early this year, so its a bit more than a begining.
<siesel> You can compare python with java. I don't have worked with enterprise level python apps, but I think python can handle that.
<fixe> i see, i have heard it compared with java but i thought they simply meant syntactically
<fixe> ok, thanks siesel, keep me posted on your progress!
<siesel> I will.
<siesel> Btw. seek3r wanted to write a PHP equivalence to the RPC abstraction in gnue-common.
<siesel> Do you know if he did any progress?
<fixe> hmmmm i hadnt heard such things... i would guess not, he has his hands in too many things as it is... but he has actually been online this past week in both #phpgroupware and #axisgroupware
<fixe> if you would like to try and catch him 
<fixe> would that allow for the interoperability I was just asking about?
<siesel> Yep. Appserver is using gnue-common, which means access to almost all SQL92 compatible databases, and a modular RPC system.
<awful_house> we have a full list of WHY OUR OWN
<fixe> hmmmmmmmmm, thanks siesel, i had no idea he was considering that... 
<siesel> You should try the webbased forms client (written in PHP) and access appserver with it, to see an exampe of that interoperability
<fixe> ok
<awful_house> it seems silly to rewrite common in php
<awful_house> as with rpc you can get functionality of common from php through rpc
<awful_house> jan's php client is proof of that :)
<awful_house> i dont readily have the list of why own appserver its on my laptop
<jcater> anyone know how to pass a set of command line arguments easily to another command while preserving quoted groupings?
<jcater> I've been using $*
<jcater> but if $1 = "My Test"
<jcater> then $* passes My Test, not "My Test" 
<jcater> :(
<awful_house> is there way to double quote the $1
Action: jcater can think of some obnoxious ways, but didn't know if there was a slick one-liner?
<awful_house> liek $1 = ""My Test""
<awful_house> $1 = "\"My Test\""
<jcater> well, that's not a viable solution
<jcater> as this is a shell script that is sitting between users and the actual command
<jcater> i.e., the users think this is the actual command
<fixe> awful_house: that makes sense, rewriting it sounded fishy to me but i didn't know better so i wasnt going to question it... :)
<jcater> so it needs to work transparently
<awful_house> ah
<awful_house> fixe: re the reason for own in a nut shell
<awful_house> we have certain requirements
<awful_house> the first on the list was
<awful_house> 1. Must be entirely 'free'
<fixe> of course
<awful_house> jboss and some others were GPL, but required questionably free TOOLS like java
<awful_house> Enhydra was the other on this list
<awful_house> so regardless of any other requirements not finding anything meeting the most important requirement lead us down this path
<awful_house> additional things we didnt readily see in other similar appservers (iirc)
<awful_house> 1. RPC abstraction
<awful_house> 2. Object to Relational mapping engines
<awful_house> 3. Business Rule Language abstraction
<awful_house> i.e. you can write your business rules in python, vb, perl, java, javascript, C, you name it
<fixe> meaning your client apps?
<awful_house> note that items 2 and 3 are long term goals of the application server not short term, but targets none the less
<awful_house> fixe: you app can be written in ANYTHING that supports a valid RPC mechanism
<fixe> right ok, thats what i thought
<awful_house> i mean the actual business logic that sits on teh application serv eitslef though
<awful_house> being language independent
<fixe> i just never heard that term before, Business Rule Language
<fixe> oh ok wow
<fixe> thats fantastic
<awful_house> well normally its what ever the application server is written in
<awful_house> or some CUSTOM language
<awful_house> ex: jboss its java
<awful_house> zope its python
<awful_house> in GNUe it will be anything someone has written the plugin for :)
<awful_house> so if you are in love with php you should be able to use common and appserver
<awful_house> without touching python really
<awful_house> you write your client in php and use rpc to talk to appserver/common
<awful_house> and you write your rules in php that reside on appserver and you go along your merrily php way ;)
<fixe> love php? its a love hate thing really... heh... i like it for client side cuz it is easy but thats it, thats why i am investigating gnue app server :)
<awful_house> btw: when i said 'you' in above sentence it didnt mean 'you personally' you could substitue 'someone' where you see you
<fixe> awful_house: coolm thanks a lot
<fixe> heheheh ok :) i got it
<jcater> ooo
<jcater> "$@"
<jcater> instead of $*
<awful_house> cool
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<StyXman> hi guys. 
<StyXman> is there any thing we can 'call' within a trigger that can show a 'ok/cancel' dialog?
<StyXman> ... that can be portable?
<StyXman> (portable inthe sense that would work under any 'frontend'...)
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<btami> hi all
<btami> jcater ?
<btami> perhaps later...
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<aprono> hi all
<aprono> jamest: How can i show a message window in a from?
<jamest> you can't 
<jamest> you'll need to add a trigger function for this
<jamest> btw - i'm completely out of touch with the forms code
<jamest> someone else may have added this feature
<jamest> and I now know it
<aprono> ok thanks jamest
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<psu> hi freakazoid
<freakazoid> ello
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<monkey_boy> i can hardly believe it but SAP is telling customers to go to Linux ;)
<monkey_boy> http://www.sap.com/community/week35_1.asp
<monkey_boy> i figured this was mainly a move away from commericial unices as followed by this statement
<monkey_boy> The First Customer Shipment of the SAP Web Application Server was dispatched exclusively on Linux and Windows NT, for example. The J2EE engine was also developed mainly on Linux. Linux is also the reference Unix for all new SAP developments. 
<monkey_boy> they use SuSE of course ;)
<monkey_boy> poor chums
<monkey_boy> but it got a little better and the last line basically states m$ is the next target :
<monkey_boy> With regard to the SAP GUI, which is available on all platforms as a Java implementation, its integration into the Star Office suite is currently being analyzed and implemented in the Linux Lab. 
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<nickr> sizers and lcs in wx are extremely frustrating
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<psu> hmm, dat was some netsplit 
<psu> everyone back yet?
<monkey_boy> yes and gnuebot was gone too
<monkey_boy> so you missed my routing
<monkey_boy> er ranting
<monkey_boy> <monkey_boy> i can hardly believe it but SAP is telling customers to go to Linux ;)<monkey_boy> http://www.sap.com/community/week35_1.asp<monkey_boy> i figured this was mainly a move away from commericial unices as followed by this statement<monkey_boy> The First Customer Shipment of the SAP Web Application Server was dispatched exclusively on Linux and Windows NT, for example. The J2EE engine was also developed mainly on Linux. Lin
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<siesel> hi!
<nickr> hi
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<Mr_You> hi
Action: chillywilly is away: running errands
<nickr> oy gods
Action: Mr_You &
<dtm> hi all
Action: Mr_You is away. Automatically set away [SZon]
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<lupo> hi there
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<lupo> hey jamest
<jamest> hey
<lupo> it's become a bit silent here in recent days
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> I told ppl to start using that Deodorant more often
<jcater> but a few people said they couldn't find a python interface to that, so didn't know what to do
<jcater> :)
<lupo> you killed them, indeed
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:49:14)
<lupo> xy56c 7zvbio.0#
<lupo> hi chillywilly!
<chillywilly> ello
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