psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hey psu hi put your penguin pesos towards GNUe? GNUe is at the top at the moment - let's keep it there :) RSN SachaS_away (~Sacha@dialup-196-12.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). Action: ajmitch is advertising it to the DotGNU people although S11001001 posted it to the list, which should help :) For those who care: all the logs for Aug (whilst bigbrother was on vacation) are now back on website at the usual location all we have to do now is get them sorting properly again ;-) great I've even manually edited them to relflect the fact that gnuebot is on UTC and bb on CDT so they don't agree when a day starts and ends ;-) Action: psu is just pleased he didn't have to adjust for kiwibot as well ;-) heh "what do you mean, Saturday? Sunday over here." some alternate colour schemes for new website are at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~psu/colour1.php and so on Read 'em and weep... s/weep/provide constructive criticism and feedback on mailing list or in here Action: ajmitch looks they load slowly for me, but that's probably because they are html files pretending to be php Action: psu is too lazy to fix that at the moment Action: psu is away: but nearby ewwww, Cool Site of the Day theme is eeeeevil reinhard (~rm@M693P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. hi reinhard psu: you around dude? Action: psu is back ah maybe ;) was just getting feedback on website ? but just found out that he was looking at www.gnu.org/projects/gnue :) a friend of mine is interested in GNUe the aim is for www.gnu.org to have same content as www.gnuenterprise.org I am just sorting out the technical details at moment awaiting response from gnu webmasters but the intent is for two to be the same as we don;t have time/inclination/need to do two sites yeah, i saw the savannah request psu: i think that if you'd CC'ed cvs0hackers, it could have been better cvs-hackers, sorry Action: ajmitch wonders what incantation is required to play with the gtk2 forms uidriver sod it, i broke my wxpython install :) hi ajmitch uhh, hello sorry, I'm a bit asynchronus today yeah saying hi after i've been talking to you ;) Really, there are 2 issues ok a) in terms of the overall conceptual map of www.gnu.org, should we be /projects/gnue or /software/gnue and b) what do we need to do (if anything) to make this happen hmmm ok I suspect a) has to be webmasters' call, b) sounds more like a cvs-hackers job you will need to have no absolute links, i think to have it working on both www.gnuenterprise.org & www.gnu.org already done that ;-) ie no /blah/foo/bar yep great thought you would have also, site is www.gnu.org compliant in that there are no index.html/index.phps the index page of foo/bar/ is always foo/bar/bar.{html/php} and you symlink it ok One thing I haven't done yet is go thru' old news items that's cool and check there are no links to non-free s/w as per FSF guidelines which we shouldn't really be doing anyway agreed as we are, when it comes down to it, a GNU project :) anyway, people to do, things to see psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("car vacuuming - yummy!"). Action: Isomer likes scheme 2 reinhard (~rm@M693P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody" neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) left irc: what? FSF wants web sites to not _like_ to non-free sofwtare? that's insane. s/like/link/ sheesh. the crowning tenet of GNU was borne from proprietary bondage... in fact their PRACTICAL ARCHITECTURAL decisions mandated that people use extremely proprietary and extremely expensive and rare equipemtn in order to use free software. only in order to build a system to replace the non-free parts they considered it acceptalbe (duh, it was mandatory) to actively use proprietary software in order to learn how to make a free software equivalent. that is, in terms of overall usability and utility... not just technical reverse engineering. to get into its world they _had_ to go argue about it with RMS or chillywilly :P and now that the founders are done with the parts they think are interesting, such as gcc, emacs, etc... they can keep their nose in their book and tell people to be oblivious to the outside world? am i correctly interpreting this situation or jsut being inflammatory because i haven't bothred to research it? option B i think i wouldn't be surprised. i've seen this kind of behavior like crazy, even if it's not official policy it's about not recommending non-free software to people, because at this time we have a wealth of free alternatives, iirc hmmm. ha, that's ridiculous for the stuff that the members of the FSF are personally interested in, yes :) btw i'm not arguing with you, ajmitch :) i'm just analyzing the situation take it up with them, don't complain about it in here yes sir! Action: ajmitch boots dtm well gnue is about as far into FSF territory as i dare tread without anti-chemical-warfare equipment you talk of FSF as it were some evil agency Action: dtm gets his anti-napalm socks geeeeez, dewd wtf! Action: dtm slaps ajmitch with the force of tough love i do NOT! get a grip, man! i talk of them as if they're radically polarized zealots! at least sometimes! i see and then other times i talk of them as being perfect gentlemen and diplomats which they also are it's not my fault they're so extremely quirky and so vehement fucking shit, man. i dont volunteer to work the booths of evil organizations. nor do i commit my life to their ideals :) no need to overreact :) but i do with the FSF uh that's what i was trying to tell YOU :) i said 'evil' because you were talking about walking into their terrirory with anti-chemical-warfare equipment hahaha hallmark.com just reminded me of my brother's birthday1 yeah that was hyperbole :} heh i know hallmark.com <---- jsp perhaps my way of stating things does not come across well i figured that in such a marketing-driven company, it would be something like windows ASP or wtf ever but thankfully it's open standsrds sprintpcs.com and 1800flowers.com run on Windows. they've been up about 50% of the time i've tried over the years 50% will win a political election but i think in this case the votes are rigged. hehe can you imagine being the project manager of sprintpcs.com? no In your professional capacity, explain this: hi, we're a global consumer technology infrastructure leader. we can't maintain availability of our most basic marketing and customer service tool. our main link to the outside world is broken. our customers have no idea what we're billing them for Action: ajmitch would probably turn to strong drink you'd think so :) seriously how could you possibly justify your own existance? i could justify my existence, just not my job :) a web manager who can't keep their web site *ON*. oh heheh yeah Action: dtm justifies ajmitch would probably take up gardening or something i'll vouch for ya buddy something far far away from what ever it was i was doing badly well this is insane, i'm nuts, and it's 5am. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hi psu, night psu :) nite ajmitch may all your dreams be free (as in speech) dtm: I think the issue re linking to non-free s/w is try looking at any proprietary s/w vendor website for links to the "opposition" (whether other prop. or free) chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Free s/w can afford to be more catholic and talk about other free s/w but there's no reason why we should do the prop. boys' work for them There are plenty of other places on the web to find out about prop s/w And note the word is promote/link catholic schmatholic So the statement "GNUe runs with Oracle" is not promoting Oracle "Gnue runs with SAP-DB" is (sorta) anyway, I need to head off soon I'm sure chillywilly can explain better than I anyway thw accounting package images for navigating the doc are b0rked s/thw/the/ Thought I'd fixed that - will have a look http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/docs/accounting_package/node2.html I know that at least one doc had gifs for navigation buttons e-vil ;) which I had to fix of course :) I should go back to bed I should go get lunch The wonderful, time-is-relatively-dysfunctional world of #gnuenterprise psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("I hear the fish and chip shop a-callin' me..."). jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-202001.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). karlis (redrobin@62.85.68.65) joined #gnuenterprise. hi karlis hello jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-202001.flinthills.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) karlis (redrobin@62.85.68.65) left irc: "[BX] Do you... BitchX?" karlis (redrobin@62.85.68.65) joined #gnuenterprise. hmmm he is back me? :) yip yes, i am back to listen listen? man i thought you were going to send a massive patch that rewrote gnue appserver you same karlis that knows something about wlan? who told you that? i mean appserver? no one i was teasing you ok maybe later, when i understand it _all_ and what about wlna? so you are not Karlis Peisenieks I am :) yummy I am just using my friends account im fighting a US Robitics wireless card tooth and nail when doing research on wlan-ng i saw your name (i think) so maybe i have found someone that actually knows something about wireless that can help (muhahahahaha) mm, I have just written some mails to their lists but other that that- i have written several drivers for wlan cards including prism based not open source this thim :) tim time so you are in latvia? yes Action: derek gets out his map to see how close/far that is from lithuania 100km :) max common border hmm you are 100km from our largest development house then :) codeworks.lt afair it takes 4 car hours to get to Vilnius cool what is native tongue of latvia? latvian? russian? latvian but russian is also fine i mean i can understand and read, talking i have forgotten is it bad when you have to add a "fudge factor" to get your books to macth the bank's ;)? erm, match this accounting stuff is for the birds ;) well nice to meet you karlis, if you are around later i might ask you some wireless questions for now im off to softball practice Action: derek is away: embarassing self at softball field heh why wasn' lisp used for gnue? chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) left irc: jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" psu (peter@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all, hi karlis hi psu was the "Why not LISP?" a serious question? hmm yes I've seen "Why not C/C++/java loads of times, but never lisp well i can understand why not c/c++/java but for "why not lisp" i can not imagine other reasons than lisp being not very popular my perception is that lisp is v much a minority lang fairly or unfairly but given it's reputation as an AI lang well, this AI part is always confusing people I guess it could be a good lang for writing business rules in well, like people who know lisp (i do not count myself among them :)) - lisp is best for almost everything sounds a bit like python ;-) sure The intent is that some day AppServer should support multiple langs for triggers/business logic etc These will be abstracted in the same way as the database and RPC via GNUe Common hence, as long as someone can write a "wrapper" for LISP to speak to the python code base of AppServer then yes, we will support LISP and C/C++/C++?+/java/Applesoft Basic and old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all... smalltalk :) APL i was thinking about this lisp part just for fun link in logo and have GNUe Reports produce turtle graphics output ;-) the trigger system will spprt multiple language and appserver will se it jst as firms does now, iirc and this keyborda is crap ;P mine sucks too well I have to press keys really hard I need a new case fr thris laptop, bt it's not under warranty anymore anyway - for triggers it should be easy, object tree has to be represented somehow kuno (~kuno@pD9508917.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. it is represented in xml as a GObject hi in common howdy but for appserver - don't know, i don' understand it all yet hmm, my t key is not working, sorry well I am writing xml markup for ODL I should commit what I have right now...almost done with this example file...I made it to long ;) i've one question, are there deb-packages available for the latest releases? about GObject - it is fine, but to have "full" control in other lang, not just function set(path, value), get(path) all tree has to be made "native" imho i mean one will need GObject in CLOS then kuno - not really. gotta go chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "woooooosh!" that's too bad! however, the setup.py doesn lots of dependancy checking ok Normal suggestion is to install the python driver for whatever d/b you i'll check this now are going to use which will grab most of the dependancies and then run setup.py from there anyway, i will continue my hobby-style digging into gnue+lisp, as i am receiving complete ignorance, when calling for project assignment :) ok i'll do so thank yo u karlis - basically at this stage, almost anything you want to look at is fine and the key bit is to have something you are interested in ;-) kuno - main depends are python >= 2.1, wxpython and mxDateTime plus the python drivers for your d/b , plus your d/b ;-) the setup.py even gives you web site addresses for anything missing ok that's cool actually it is easier to tell what i am not interested in and that is any kind of UI (be it forms or reports) therefore i _am_ interested in everything else - common and black-box-appserver appserver is the key at the moment key? as we have held off doing packages (Financials, HR, etc) until we have a reasonable appserver to base them on There's no reason per se why we couldn't write a Finance package in Forms in 2-tier (forms talks to d/b) but aha, if i had _clear_ understanding what it should do, maybe i could help... that's *so* 20th century... The fashion these days is n-tier (forms to appserver to db) karlis - there was a big planning meeting in Feb which is documented in Kernel Cousins since then, most development has been done by siesel (jan) with appserver meister reinhard chipping in as well Not sure how much has changed since the 0.0.1 release in July ok, but i do not completely understand what "business logic" in context of appserver means - what will be input and what output, to say simple ok, well my understanding is as follows (probably wrong) a simple example of biz logic would be that the lines on an invoice must add to the invoice header total In 2-tier, you'd have an on-submit trigger to check this & throw a "fix it bozo" msg to user if wrong In n-tier, this checking sits in appserver as a very simple biz rule Obviously, biz rules can be much more complex than this and may involve workflow-style processes e.g. balanced invoice goes to Fred for approval butthat's the basic idea AFAIK aha, and this way gnue application will consist of related form and report definitions and business logic written for appserver? yep then i was not far from truth http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020309_19.html is a good starter ok, thanks, i'll look into it karlis: why not lisp LISP is NOT a business programmers language END of STORY lisp is great (there is no argument there) but our target market is not academia programmers btw: we DO support lisp well scheme our appserver/forms have a plugable business rules engine architecture where by anyone wishing to fashion a plugin engine for their language can orginal appserver (GEAS) supported C and python current appserver only supports python but it is in the specification to have exposed api where as you can use any language you like even Visual Basic or such i hope that answers the question (it has been asked and discussed in great detail with rms) basically another reason is it was not good bang for buck python + wxwindows gave us win32, *nix, mac out of box anyhow i will stop, but psu these are some of the arguments if you wish to 'tone' them down and put them in FAQ :) a comprehensive review of the FAQ is on the todo list ;) wow,wow, calm down, i am not complaining, just interested karlis: yes i apologize it *was* heated at one time because RMS really pressed in fact at one time after we had a workign product he requested / near demanded we rewrite it in lisp because there was brief time that python had issues it caused 'quite' an uproar luckily we were able to get guido (collective we) to get the licensing for python straight and avert any long term issue :) fwiw: originally we kicked some C stuff around for forms (and geas was all in C) and at one point we were going to try scheme/lisp for all the scheme/lisp affeciandos that read logs major issues with the environment (at least at that time) a. horrid documentation (and all sources for help were the lovely rtfm, eltist type :( ) b. no good toolkit support for doing xplatform UI (even weak single platform support) im sure that in 4 years (b) has had to improve and i hope that somehow (a) has improved i really want to play with lisp (more than just emacs hacking) hmm, was rms for lisp or against python? a little of both mostly for lisp i think it was odd as we were the ones originally concerned with python once it was in licensing limbo so we approached rms to talk with guido it was then sometime later that he came back and asked why not lisp (after python was fixed) or at least thats how i seem to remember it ok, lets finish this painful topic and go to wireless problems Action: karlis is becoming sleepy otherwise hi all derek: werd psu (peter@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. karlis (redrobin@62.85.68.65) left irc: "BitchX: now with flavor crystals!" kuno (~kuno@pD9508917.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.1" btami (~btami@dial-3-122.emitel.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all jcater around ? his "fixed incorrect resetting of summaries" in reports broked CVS with foobulations sample ! btami (~btami@dial-3-122.emitel.hu) left irc: Client Quit dyfet (~dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hey dyfet hello, is derek about? Action: ajmitch pokes derek dyfet: hi! dyfet: man i can't reach rsb! he must be at that scifi convention with Francesca (sp?) dyfet: how ya doin Im fine dtm ([1cnMxoYoA@66.135.135.55) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) lol, I should pay more attention to the screen perhaps :) I was on another workstation... ok haven't seen derek around chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hello chillywilly hiya how it be shakin'? umm yeah that wasn't a yes r no question sir s/r/or/ hey dyfet waazzzapaneeen? jcater_ (~jcater@cpe-024-165-223-104.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Nick change: jcater_ -> jcater word all werd man the options for free POS systems really sucks I've found one that's really impressive and feature complete that's not good write one of your own then :) BUT it's written in C ah what's wrong with that? we well it's good for speed