psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hi psu
<psu> hi aj
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) got netsplit.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) got netsplit.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) got netsplit.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by card.freenode.net
<derek> hi
<derek> dang netsplit
Action: psu likes netsplits 
<psu> well, sorta
<psu> I look at a day's log and see it says 95k & get depressed 
<ajmitch> but 90k is from netsplits?
<psu> & cheer up
<psu> ;)
Action: psu got a flyer for LinuxExpoUK2002 
<psu> will see if I can go
<psu> Far too late to get a GNUe stall
<psu> & I'm not sure they have a ".org pavillion"-type area anyway
<psu> but could still be interesting
<ajmitch> hmm
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
<psu> "The UK's only location for Enterprise Linux computing"
<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<reinhard> good morning
<reinhard> offtopic question
<reinhard> can anybody explain in a few words the difference between mono and dotgnu?
<ajmitch> i can try
<ajmitch> mono is looking for mainly .NET framework compatibility, with the associated tools
<ajmitch> DotGNU looks to include that stuff, but to have a more genereic webservices platform with other tools, as well as supplying some webservices
<psu> so sorta dotgnu is like "GNU's not .NET", whereas mono is more like lindows?
<ajmitch> the .NET-compatible stuff is getting the main focus in DotGNU at the moment, but there is work underway that's not related to that stuff, like authentication & VRS
<ajmitch> psu: yeah
<ajmitch> DotGNU will be using the higher-level mono stuff where appropriate, no point redoing the wheel for everything :)
<ajmitch> hmm, that's the second time in 1/2 an hour that i've answered the mono vs dotgnu question ;)
<psu> ajmitch: time for an X-chat macro? ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<reinhard> ajmitch: thanks
<reinhard> ajmitch: seriously i would have expected an answer to this question somewhere on dotgnu.org but didn't find it
<ajmitch> heh, i'll see if i can get someting added
<derek> reinhard: that would break FSF norm of making things difficult
<derek> you make things too clear and people might try to help and that becomes more work than its worth ;)
<derek> much better to make barrier to entry high enough that only the most elite participate ;)
<ajmitch> like GNUe? ;)
<ajmitch> i think that the GNUe website is too clear on things
<psu> I can rot13 the whole site if that would help ;-)
<ajmitch> double-rot13
<psu> double rot13 = clear text?
<ajmitch> gotta be extra careful!
<ajmitch> yeah ;)
<derek> we have a website?
<ajmitch> hmm why is bayonne under tools yet dcl under packages?
<ajmitch> derek: yeah, the one with the ugly colours :)
<derek> thats outta control, next thing you know some nutty englisman will go and read these logs and post summaries to the internet
<ajmitch> don't want to have that happening
<dtm> derek: what's up
<derek> picking my nose
<ajmitch> hi dtm
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/tools.php
<ajmitch> yes?
<derek> ajmitch: thats where bayonne is
<derek> werent you asking?
Action: derek is horribly delayed in response :)
<ajmitch> derek: no
<ajmitch> i was asking why DCL was not listed on that page, yet bayonne is
<psu> 'cause DCL is a package, not a tool 
<ajmitch> how so? :)
<psu> Fine shades of distinction, I know
<ajmitch> grr, something is broken here
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py", line 115, in __init__
<ajmitch> DB000:     self._make_connection(args, kwargs2)
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py", line 41, in _make_connection
<ajmitch> DB000:     apply(super(ConnectionBase, self).__init__, args, kwargs)
<ajmitch> DB000: TypeError: connect() argument 2 must be string, not None
<ajmitch> last person to touch connection related stuff was siesel
<derek> lk;asfdj;lkasjfd;klasjfkl;asdjf;klasjdf
<derek> jas;kldfjsa;lkj;klasdfj
<derek> aljd;kfjas;lkdfj
<derek> i hate mysql driver
<derek> bastards can never decide how they want to do thigns :)
<psu> The reason I list DCL as a package is that, although at the moment, it is in effect a package that includes its own tools
<ajmitch> i don't think it's the driver's fault
Action: derek doesnt have mysql anymore to test
<derek> ajmitch: in this case its not
<derek> psu: im with you
<derek> dcl is a package
<psu> eventually it should become a "normal" package using the main GNUe tools
<psu> w/ the PHP front end as an option
<derek> i.e. it is an producitity application w/o doing anything
<derek> bayonne is a tool
<derek> installing bayonne doesnt do anything useful for you
<derek> until you write applications with it
<ajmitch> ok
<derek> much like forms and such
<ajmitch> ok, psycopg driver just worked with dcl forms
<ajmitch> good thing that gtk2 driver was committed, i broke my wxpython installation
<derek> rofl
<derek> does it look nice the gtk2 one?
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("work time...").
<derek> and what did you ahve to do?
<derek> i.e. im interested in trying gtk2 but nervous
<derek> can i run gtk2 and gtk at same time
<ajmitch> well i've got all gnome 2 stuff compiled with garnome, installed into ~/garnome
<ajmitch> yes, it's designed to work together
<ajmitch> the sid wxpython package only compiled for python 2.1, 2.2 is default now
<derek> i dont compile
<derek> i quit a while back
<derek> 12 step program and all 
<derek> it really got me cured
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch will bbiab
<derek> 1. We admitted we were powerless over compiling - that our computer systems had become unmanageable.
<derek> 2. Came to believe that a packaging system greater than compiling could restore us to sanity.
<derek> 3. Made a decision to turn our makefiles and our compilers over to the care of Debian as we understood it.
<derek> 4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of apt-cache.
<derek> 5. Admitted to #gnuenterprise, to ourselves the exact nature of our compiling.
<derek> 6. Were entirely ready to have Debian remove all these source on our computer systems.
<derek> 7. Humbly asked Debian to remove our makefiles.
<derek> 8. Made a list of all applications we had compiled, and became willing to use packages for them all.
<derek> 9. Made direct packages for such applications wherever packages didnt exit, except when to do so would produce non free packages.
<derek> 10. Continued to use packages and when we didnt promptly admitted it.
<derek> 11. Sought through apt-get and dpkg to improve our computer systems with Debian as we understood it, asking only for knowledge of Debian's package for us and the power to install them.
<derek> 12. Having had a philosophical awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to compiler freaks and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> and that ajmitch my friend is how you kick the compiling habit
<btami> hi all
<derek> hi btami
<btami> are you never sleep :)
<derek> only when im not awake
Action: derek is away: dont wake the slumbering giant, he might think you an oversized donut and swallow you whole....
lupo_ (~lupo@pD950540A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<lupo_> hi
lupo_ (~lupo@pD950540A.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1"
<dtm> does anyone here have a template for a business invoice?  like the one in Excel?  i can't find one for openoffice so i want to convert/recreate one.
siesel (jan@xunzi.sinologie.uni-bonn.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
<siesel> morning :)
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-245-76.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ariel_> siesel: hi Jan
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hi 
<dtm> alert -- I found some excellent business templates for OpenOffice.  http://documentation.openoffice.org/Samples_Templates/User/template/index.html
Scape29 (~Scape29@10.Red-80-33-22.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Scape29> I'm looking for this project about "Python feature freeze", someone talked about on the list some month ago
<Scape29> I don't find it....
<ajmitch> hmm?
<ajmitch> references?
<Scape29> uhm, scanning the mail-list archive :-)
siesel (jan@xunzi.sinologie.uni-bonn.de) left irc: "later"
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-118.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: "Client Exiting"
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-118.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) got netsplit.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) got netsplit.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) got netsplit.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-120.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by card.freenode.net
SachaS_ (~Sacha@dialup-196-158.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-120.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
Nick change: SachaS_ -> SachaS
<SachaS> yep ZipCode example in forms working with postgresql :)
<ajmitch> cool
<SachaS> hi ajmitch
<SachaS> ajmitch: triggers you have to write in code?
<ajmitch> yes, i think so
<ajmitch> python is easy :)
<SachaS> do the triggers have its own syntax?
<SachaS> their own syntax.
<ajmitch> i don't know too much about that, perhaps look at some of the sample forms
<SachaS> yep.
<SachaS> ajmitch: i have a question about cvs: - i download the source from cvs (cvs update) and install it each time. how does the other way work, with the cvs scripts? 
<ajmitch> what cvs scripts?
<SachaS> i "cvs updated" a couple day ago and run the setup scripts in common, forms and designer
<ajmitch> ah
<ajmitch> ./setup-cvs.py is easier
<SachaS> there is another way siesel told me.
<ajmitch> much easier, in fact :)
<SachaS> does setup-cvs.py download the source code as well?
<ajmitch> no
<SachaS> no?
<ajmitch> cvs update grabs the source
<ajmitch> you've got to have source for it to install
<SachaS> ok. what does setup-cvs?
<ajmitch> setup-cvs.py makes scripts that let you use the cvs copy of gnue
<SachaS> o
<ajmitch> and sets up the conf dir
<SachaS> ok. the cvs copy of gnue.
<SachaS> what is the cvs copy of gnue?
Action: ajmitch shoots SachaS
<SachaS> please donts shoot.
<ajmitch> the cvs copy is the source that you're playing with :)
<ajmitch> the directory in which you do cvs update
<SachaS> ok. so i want to get the latest source code. i do a cvs update then i go into common, forms and designer and do a setup in each. thats a way to get up-to-date. right?
<ajmitch> it's an ugly way of doing it
<SachaS> but a way, right?
<ajmitch> i do cvs update, then just run setup-cvs.py
<ajmitch> yes, it is one way
<SachaS> ok.
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) got netsplit.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) got netsplit.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) got netsplit.
<ajmitch> setup-cvs.py creates programs with different names like gfcvs for gnue-forms
<SachaS> ah ok.
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise.
Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
dtm ([3YtE0tQl8@ip55.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise.
pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by card.freenode.net
<SachaS> ok i try it.
<SachaS> is it a problem (for cvs-setup) when i did setup common, forms and designer with setup in each directory the other day?
<SachaS> will see :)
Action: SachaS running cvs update
<SachaS> and went into each directory and did a ./setup.py install :)
ariel__ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-245-76.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-245-76.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
Scape29 (~Scape29@10.Red-80-33-22.pooles.rima-tde.net) left irc: "[x]chat"
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> hi
<btami> how can i write a bootable netinst cd with gtoaster?
<btami> the Make Bootable is grey !
<btami> help!
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: "Client Exiting"
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "It is easiest to suggest solutions when you know nothing about the problem"
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> everyone run
<derek> he's back
Action: derek is back (gone 07:18:31)
<nickr> eek
ariel__ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-245-76.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client"
Action: derek is away: work
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
azar (~nobody@ip-80-205.evc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<azar> is anybody using reiserfs on a production server ?
stbain (~stbain@66.207.65.76) joined #gnuenterprise.
<azar> hello
<stbain> greetz
<azar> where are u from ?
StyXman (~mdione@modem80-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman> hi 'vrybody
<azar> hi
<azar> are you students or workers ?
<StyXman> both
<azar> do you use linux at work ?
<StyXman> and at home
<jcater> azar: I ran resiserfs on a production server up until 18 months ago
<jcater> s/resiser/reiser :)
<StyXman> is there a way to pass parameters to forms?
<jcater> not at the moment
<jcater> we have code in reports that allows for parameter passing
<jcater> that I want to move into common
<jcater> so forms can use as well
<StyXman> ok, I'll take alook and try to port it to forms.
<StyXman> ah, ok
<ToyMan> derek around?
<StyXman> azar: why do you ask?
<fixe> azar: i am using reiserfs
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Client Quit
<StyXman> I used reiser, but switched to ext3 due compatibility
<StyXman> my disk has traveled a lot :)
<StyXman> so, ain't '"%s" % a' equivalent to 'str(a)'?
<azar> because i just had to reformat my reiserfs two times
der_edoc (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<azar> on time to free disk space not liberated, and another time because i had files i cannot delete
<StyXman> wrong way to fix things, I guess
<azar> space was not freed there was differences between df and du 
<jcater> I never had issues w/ReiserFS
<StyXman> uh, yes, that happens. I never found why
<jcater> but heard horror stories
<azar> 20 users /home 8Go
<jcater> so switched to ext3
<azar> and last time there was files i cannot remove any more
<jcater> (plus the backwards compatability was really nice)
<azar> is there same problems with ext3 ?
<jcater> I haven't had any issues w/ext3
<jcater> I use it on all my servers
<jcater> but that doesn't mean there aren't problems :)
<der_edoc> jcater: i have used ext3 for about 4 months now on multiple machines and havent hit a snag yet (knock on wood) and in all instances i converted from ext2 to ext3
<der_edoc> no i cant say that means there are no problems, but if i cant easily break it, thats saying a LOT
<der_edoc> s/no/now
<ra3vat> der_edoc: hi, _edoc in russian means someone who like to eat a lot and do that fast, does it fit well with that literally reading? :)
<der_edoc> ra3vat it fits me yes
<der_edoc> but its basically code red backwards
<ra3vat> so you're doing like edoc and code comes out 
<chillywilly> hi folks
Action: chillywilly prefers XFS filesystem
<chillywilly> but you gotta patch your kernel ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: ya, and how many of those do you run in production? ;)
<chillywilly> 1
<chillywilly> my server is damn productive
<chillywilly> XFS has been around for a long time and used extensively by SGI
<jcater> err
<jcater> that's misleading
<chillywilly> you know they do those hard core graohics type things
<chillywilly> graphics
<jcater> JFS has been used by IBM for ages as well
<jcater> :)
<jcater> but not under linux
<chillywilly> why should that matter?
Action: jcater guesses IBM's AIX kernel is a different code base than Linux's
<jcater> and SGI's UNIX OS was a separate code base than Linux
<chillywilly> ok, and have you had problems with GNU/Linux's scalability?
<chillywilly> why would IBM put it on mainframes if it sucked?
<jcater> wtf are you talking about?
<jcater> I'm talking about just because a file system is being ported from another OS that doesn't mean it's inherently stable on Linux
<jcater> just because it was stable on that other OS
Action: jcater was not talking anything about stability
<jcater> although
<jcater> since you bring it up
<jcater> don't think for a second that IBM is converting it's mainframes from AIX to linux
<jcater> they are offering a linux "module" (or whatever they call it) 
<jcater> to people who need it
<jcater> there's a big difference
<Mr_You> IIRC, the mainframes run OS/390
<Mr_You> not AIX
<chillywilly> if it is relatively the same code for the filesystem them obviously it comes down to the underlying filesystem interfaces/code (the VFS in Linux's case)
<jcater> and that in know way knocks linux
<jcater> Mr_You: true dat
Action: jcater hasn't had all my caffeine yet
<Mr_You> Linux is the answer to a dying OS/390
<jcater> IBM isn't replacing OS/390
<jcater> linux isn't a mainframe OS
<Mr_You> mainframes are dying, so is OS/390
<chillywilly> they are running virtual Linux's on top of it, why would thye do such a crazy thing?
<Mr_You> its not a mainframe OS right,  but running Linux on a mainframe extends its life
<Mr_You> chillywilly: cause thats the best way they could get it working?
<chillywilly> yea, but I mean what's the point of doing that?
<Mr_You> to run non-OS/390 apps I assume, to get your monies worth from the hardware/investment
<Mr_You> to extend the life of OS/390/IBM mainframes.. ie. enabling more (new) applications to run on these dying geezers
<chillywilly> ok, but doe shtis say anything about Linux's scalability?
<chillywilly> er, does this
<chillywilly> or am I smoking good crackk?
Action: chillywilly takes a hit on the crack pipe
Action: chillywilly passes it around
<Mr_You> well.. linux is multiplatform..
<chillywilly> has anyone seen this hyper threading technology that they are hacking into the Linux kernel?
<Mr_You> its scalable to some extent
<chillywilly> er, read about it
<chillywilly> oh well my circular logic befuddles me
<Mr_You> scability is determined by "hardwired" file system sizes and processors
<Mr_You> and memory
<chillywilly> true dattttt
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> too many t's
<chillywilly> jdhfnlksjdflkab nsdfjfyg wepfuj
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> wassup reinhard ?!?
<Mr_You> "SGI Demos 64-Proc Linux Box".. now thats scability
<chillywilly> w00t
<Mr_You> processor scability isn't a problem with server farms, but you don't get real memory scability
<Mr_You> requires shared memory across a cluster
<reinhard> hi
<chillywilly> howdy old man
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> hi reinhard
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-241-251.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> BitchX licks the big one
<Mr_You> scrollz is fine
Action: chillywilly grumble, grumble
<chillywilly> wassat?
<chillywilly> you know we need a decent blootbot in here
<chillywilly> I want one that I can google with
<chillywilly> dagnabit
Action: chillywilly should run one of his server
<chillywilly> the chillywillybot
<chillywilly> ;P
<der_edoc> how hard is it to add a drive to an existing system? 
Action: der_edoc did long wihile back and remebmer it being easy but that was many moons ago
<Mr_You> depends 
<der_edoc> i suppose need to format it and such
Action: stbain sighs
<stbain> so... what's been going on?
<der_edoc> then jjust add it to fstab?
<chillywilly> der_edoc you might have to modify your fstab
<StyXman> jcater: are names intended to be unique?
<chillywilly> the letters are based on the IDE/SCSI bus positions
<chillywilly> (obviously)
<chillywilly> do, based on where it is just hack fstab
<chillywilly> s/do/so/
<Mr_You> hmm newsforge is down for me
<der_edoc> chilly dont i have to format it?
<jcater> StyXman: that's still up for debate
<chillywilly> create a filesystem on there yes
<Mr_You> where is this GNUe IRC client?
Action: chillywilly was going to write an IRC rpc driver
<Mr_You> anyone?
<jcater> Mr_You: bitchx | gnue-forms
<jcater> ?
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> did you not read what I be typing?
<chillywilly> niggie
<chillywilly> we have no IRC client
<Mr_You> I've seen users with "GNU Enterprise  User" as their realname.
<Mr_You> IRCNAME
<chillywilly> they changes it to be that way then
<chillywilly> changed
<chillywilly> with some client
<Mr_You> username "www-data".. sure looks like a web-based IRC client
<chillywilly> ssssh
<Mr_You> was thinking someone set somethin up
<chillywilly> he's iding out
<chillywilly> he's using a CGI based one
<chillywilly> do a /ctcp version once
<chillywilly> not me stbain 
<stbain> hehe
<chillywilly> -:- CTCP VERSION reply from der_edoc: CGI:IRC 0.5 - http://cgiirc.sf.net/
[14:16] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> oops
<Mr_You> arrgghh wtf is broke with DNS?!?
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> whose dns?
<Mr_You> zonealarm is confused
<chillywilly> isn't that a winblows firewall software?
<stbain> yes
Action: chillywilly is ashamed he knows that
<Mr_You> pretty neat
<StyXman> jcater: uh, what did you understood by 'names'? I meant objectnames, as in the 'name' attribute.
<jcater> StyXman: yes
<Mr_You> bout time someone wrote a decent IRC client
<Mr_You> using CGI
<StyXman> I realized that my question was very ambiguos...
<StyXman> what are the parameters used for in reports?
<chillywilly> Mr_You der_edoc doesn;t think it is decent....he was bitcing baout it the other day
<chillywilly> about
<jcater> StyXman: well, reports can use them 2 ways
<jcater> 1) in the conditions for datasources
<Mr_You> undernet has a java app, I think, which is pretty cool
<jcater> so you can run gnue-reports myreports begindate=09/02/02 enddate=09/03/02
<chillywilly> I ain't doing sheeit at work!?!?!?!!!
<jcater> 2) the conditions can just appear in the output of reports
<chillywilly> woooooo
<jcater> i.e., 
<jcater> gnue-reports myreports custom_title="My Sales Report"
<jcater> I would foresee forms using it similarly
<StyXman> uh, I'll try to guess how does it do it.
<jcater> i.e., it could use them in datasources to limit a query
<jcater> or it could be values that trigger code could access
<StyXman> yes, it's what we need.
<jcater> datasources inherently support parameters
<jcater> but only reports currently passes them
<jcater> it should be trivial to get forms to
<jcater> it just hasn't happened yet
<StyXman> yes, that one too. indeed, we're thinking about a kind of 'app' that would integrate a lot of forms into one single app.
<StyXman> in a different way that navigator does. it would also handle app config and, more specifically, users and roles.
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "later"
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise.
<der_edoc> rather than cowboy up your own, its better to discuss
<der_edoc> i.e. navigator is supposed to handle at somepoint role based access control to things
<der_edoc> and also tools are discussed to do things like manage connections.conf and such
<psu> Actually, if connections.conf was XML, we could use DEsigner to edit it ;-)
<psu> then it really would be "the emacs of GNUe"...
Action: jcater thwaps psu with a large, irish trout
<jcater> erm
<jcater> does irish trout == beer battered trout? 
<jcater> :)
<der_edoc> does the jcater irish trout special come with chips?
<der_edoc> if so can you dish me up one too?
siesel (jan@dial-194-8-195-37.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> hi :)
<der_edoc> run, the germans are coming, the germans are coming, run
azar (~nobody@ip-80-205.evc.net) left irc: "KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith'"
<siesel> hehehe
<ariel_> hi jan
<ariel_> siesel: are you there?
Chipaca (~john@200.59.86.80) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Chipaca> hi all
<siesel> hi ariel_, I'm here
<StyXman> hi Chipaca 
<siesel> hi Chipaca
<ariel_> siesel: i'm reviewing the code in _featuretest and i'm asking
<ariel_> why the field type in geas_meta_object is varchar
<ariel_> and not another table/object such as 'geas_meta_type'?
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<ariel_> then type in geas_meta_object would be an int referring, as foreign key, the oid of geas_meta_type. 
<ariel_> vantages: 
<ariel_> 1) less waste of space.
<ariel_> 2) only 'known' types can be inserted
<ariel_> 3) specific info on the type can be stored in other fields of geas_meta_type, for example if type is 'function' the language or wathsoever
<siesel> The idea was to only use one table at the beginning, and split it up into multiple tables later.
<ariel_> another question:
<siesel> ok
<ariel_> now geas_meta_object is filled 'by hand' 
<siesel> btw. derek: you can use gtk and gtk2 together without problems on debian/unstable.
<siesel> just uncomment the two lines in the uidriver to "require gtk2"
<ariel_> i guess tomorrow a parser will do the job, but which language will be used? gsd, idl, odl, godl or what?
stbain (~stbain@66.207.65.76) left irc: "Ni!"
<psu> since chillywilly isn't here, I guess it falls to me to say "ODMG"
<siesel> there will be many parsers which can fill the internal structures
<siesel> hehe :)
Action: jcater thwaps psu
<der_edoc> psu  i think that means odl
<der_edoc> can i take step back and say can geas not focus on objects until it can get basics done?
Action: psu is just trying to fill up his GNUe Buzzword Bingo card
<der_edoc> thats the problem
<der_edoc> geas always seems to want to play buzzword bingo
<der_edoc> instead of focusing on just working :)
<siesel> since I 'm not 100% conviced that odl/odmg 3.0 ... is the best choice for internal structures etc. I would prefer a own format first. I think using .gsd as a start would be ok. 
<siesel> we can later add all that ODMG features to appserver and to the godl / odl parsers
ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> The main drawback of odl IMHO is that code and definitions are seperated. I would like to have a file format which combines both
<siesel> like putting kind of <trigger> or <method> sections in a extended .gsd file
ra3vat (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: Connection timed out
ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: Client Quit
ra3vat (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ariel_> separation of code and definitions is not a bad thing, it improves reusability
<ariel_> you can improve the code for a single method without reloading/recompiling the whole thing
Chipaca (~john@200.59.86.80) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?"
<siesel> I don't think, that putting code and definition together is a must, but it makes things much easier.
<siesel> btw. appserver could provide a "load new code into function X" method, which solves that problem.
<siesel> I just want to program like in f.e. python and not in the way like C, where I always have to change two file (.h, .c) if I modify the interfaces
<ariel_> what about the old 'gcd'
<siesel> I've started writing a parser for it, but there seems to be a heaps of reasons not to use 'gcd', I just don't remeber :)
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> hi Daniel
<chillywilly> ello
<ariel_> can i improve gcdparser.py just to convert all the Neil's work into gsd?
<siesel> yes, that should be possible. 
<siesel> Not only possible, that would be great :)
Action: chillywilly has been reading the bison manual
<chillywilly> gcd schmecd
<ariel_> i will do, but since is a 'use and throw' job may be i will use old geas code to do it (in c) since that parser is more complete
<ariel_> what we need is only the output, i.e the gsd's
<chillywilly> can anyone reach http://www.dotster.com?
<Mr_You> use
<Mr_You> yes
<chillywilly> blah I hate my ISP
<psu> works for me - redirects to web.dotster.com
<siesel> ariel_: yes, it would be much easier to use geas to build up its db structure and then use designer to create a gsd out of it
Action: ariel_ is away: sleep
<siesel> ariel: night
<chillywilly> fucking shit
<chillywilly> that's it I am going to kick their a$$
<chillywilly> ;)
<ariel_> not sure it will work, because 'type' in gcd doesn't create classes but just reusable definitions
<ariel_> anyway i' m really tired, later...
<siesel> the_edoc: what do you think about a special dbdriver to edit the connections.conf in gnue-forms
<StyXman> why GRSources.prepare is marked as 'please go bye bye'? 
<jcater> because it will go away at some point
<jcater> :)
<siesel> jcater: what do you think about using forms itself to edit its own config files?
<jcater> I'd thought about that before
<chillywilly> anyone know ff hand the name of the website (OASIS group) that has the DTD and such for dcbook, etc.
Action: jcater even considered making IMAP and POP3 dbdrivers for gnue-common
<jcater> but then the more I thought about it
<chillywilly> I don't think I could ever reach their website either
<jcater> the more I thought that might be hellacious to maintain
<jcater> for the little benefit derived
<siesel> i.e. you think that writing a seperate app, or config dialog to do this is easier?
<chillywilly> www.oasis-open.org
<jcater> I think a popup dialog in Designer to do this may be best
<jcater> I'm honestly not sure
<jcater> I'm torn in several directions
<der_edoc> i think making a python app to do it is fine
<der_edoc> sigh this irc client eats my comments
<der_edoc> i can type faster than it can process (how sad)
<siesel> USA Today: Incredebil: Human faster than Computer 
<Mr_You> hehe
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise.
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There's always one more imbecile than you expect"
reinhard (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
StyXman_ (~mdione@200.59.86.57) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> siesel: that's a bad headline
<jcater> more appropriately:
<jcater> USA Today: Mountain Dew, Dots push human faster than computer
<jcater> Subtitle: Massive amounts of pizza shown to reverse the effects
<chillywilly> heh
<nickr> Dots eh
<der_edoc> roflmao
Action: der_edoc has been dot free for about a month
StyXman (~mdione@modem80-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
Nick change: StyXman_ -> StyXman
<der_edoc> though i did scarf a large pizza last night :)
<ajmitch> hi
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I forgot the topic of conversation
<jcater> and read the "dot free for about a month"
Action: jcater thought it was a WinXP reference
Action: jcater was confused :)
<jcater> then I was going to ask
<jcater> wtf have you been using dotNet prior to a month a go
<StyXman> jcater: I just can't follow the code. how does exactly reports pass parameters to the datasoures?
<nickr> what is a Dot, exactly?
<nickr> some sort of new street drug?
<nickr> spank? horse? the snake?
<jcater> Reports has a GRParameter class
<jcater> that subclasses common's GParameter
<jcater> so it all happens automatically
<jcater> we just need some code in the gfclient.py code
<jcater> that takes the parameters from the command lines
<jcater> and sets the GFParameter object
<jcater> with the value
<jcater> then GDataSources will take over from there
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-sleep
<der_edoc> if you remove sleep wont you get tired?
<StyXman> yes, I saw the part where sys.argv convers into self.PARAMETERS or the like an then they're copied all over the code till they become GRParameters...
StyXman_ (~mdione@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
perlhead (~fheinz@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<StyXman_> hi 'head
<StyXman_> freaking ISP...
<perlhead> tell me about it.
perlhead (~fheinz@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: Client Quit
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home"
StyXman (~mdione@200.59.86.57) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
Nick change: StyXman_ -> StyXman
sshack (~sshack@h24-70-202-72.gv.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> this is so fun
<chillywilly> thei tech support chat thing for RR
<chillywilly> ;P
<ajmitch> umm yeah
<chillywilly> I can't reach http://www.dotster.com or http://www.oasis-open.org
<chillywilly> he's telling me se nslookup, to ping the IP, etc.
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> now he's trying to transfer me to the network specialist becase thye don't know Linux ;)
<ajmitch> online, or on phone?
<chillywilly> it jst times out
<chillywilly> online java chat
<chillywilly> I cna ping them
<chillywilly> the IPs resolve
<ajmitch> ok, blame your isp
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> i can get to the oasis-open.org page
<chillywilly> really
<chillywilly> what abot dotster?
<ajmitch> well, i can get a page title, and galeon has loaded some data :)
<chillywilly> about
<chillywilly> k
<ajmitch> yup, i can get to both
<chillywilly> blah
<ajmitch> :D
<chillywilly> it's the ISP's fault
<chillywilly> I am naked with no firewall up right now ;P
perlhead (~fheinz@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> I tried tracerouting it
<chillywilly> at sme point I get *** lines
<chillywilly> you know how to interpret that ajmitch?
<ajmitch> it's broken
<chillywilly> routing problem?
<chillywilly> blah
<ajmitch> dunno
<chillywilly> well that's the only evidence I have of brokenness
<ajmitch> check that you don't have broken ECN settings
<chillywilly> what's that? ;)
<ajmitch> cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
<chillywilly> alrighty
<ajmitch> it used to be a prblem
<chillywilly> frell:~# cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
<chillywilly> 1
<ajmitch> ahah
<ajmitch> set that to 0, and retry
<sshack> ajmitch: He can't have "broken" ecn settings.
<ajmitch> sshack: broken for accessing these sites ;)
<sshack> ajmitch: Someone between him and the remote host can have a broken router that doesn't know how to handle ecn.
<chillywilly> wtf is ECN anyway
<sshack> ajmitch: That's not his problem though, it's theirs. 
<ajmitch> still amounts to brokenness somewhere
<sshack> chillywilly: Explicit congestion notification.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I think there's a bnd link along the way
<sshack> What does a traceroute say?
<StyXman> chillywilly: mb you better use mtr
<sshack> Okay, question. Are the re any subprojects in gnue that need an extra developer?
<ajmitch> all of them
<ajmitch> :)
<chillywilly> frell:~# cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn
<chillywilly> 0
<StyXman> yes, I saw the part where sys.argv convers into self.PARAMETERS or the like an then they're copied all over the code till they become GRParameters...
<sshack> Which one most needs an extra developer?
<StyXman> you say that GDataSources will look for them and use them if found?
<ajmitch> hmm, appserver?
<StyXman> (those were for jcater)
<chillywilly> sshack: traceroute dies after so many hops
<chillywilly> spits out lines like
<chillywilly>  15 * * *
<chillywilly> etc.
<sshack> chillywilly: There you are then.
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> i dunno...
<chillywilly> someone shit is fbarred
<ajmitch> you can ping the box
<chillywilly> yes I can ping it
<sshack> ajmitch: I shall look into appserver then.
<ajmitch> i get a large number of no replies
<ajmitch> yet i can load the page
<ajmitch> chillywilly: have you retried yet?
<StyXman> chillywilly: they may be dropping echo requests... our uni does that
<chillywilly> not yet
<chillywilly> echo is a ping right?
<sshack> chillywilly: Yes.
<ajmitch> icmp & udp
<StyXman> chillywilly: yeap
<sshack> ICMP echo == ping.
<chillywilly> pign works though
<ajmitch> traceroute apparantly uses udp echo by default
<StyXman> chillywilly: that's why: you better use mtr
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> that worked ajmitch
<ajmitch> hmm, what a guess :)
<chillywilly> so what's the issue with that?
<chillywilly> and how can I make sure it is always disabled?
<ajmitch> it's a kernel option, can probably be set elsewhere in debian
<chillywilly> so I get notified of ECN and then it can't connect or what?
Action: ajmitch larts chillywilly with the rtfm stick ;)
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> there is no damn manual ;)
<ajmitch> i'm sure i saw it in the kernel configuration somewhere...
<chillywilly> actally where could I look? run the frelling kernek config program and read the help?
<ajmitch> dunno
<chillywilly> do you know how it works?
<ajmitch> no, if i did i wouldn't be telling you to look at google
<chillywilly> where did you hear about that issue?
<chillywilly> perhaps there's a fe more lists I need to subscribe to or something
<ajmitch> a year or so ago
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> man you have a good memory
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> do you have it turned off?
<chillywilly> and if so where
<ajmitch> http://www.aplawrence.com/Linux/ecn.html
<chillywilly> options file?
Action: chillywilly looks
<chillywilly> thanks ajmitch
Remosi (dahoose@port-62-162.jet.net.nz) got netsplit.
<ajmitch> i think it was probably turned off in my kernel config
<chillywilly> aw crud
<chillywilly> that means I should recompile the bugger ;)
<ajmitch> no
<chillywilly> well relaistically I don't want that crap in there
<chillywilly> at all
<ajmitch> then disable it
Remosi (dahoose@port-62-162.jet.net.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise.
perlhead (~fheinz@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<ajmitch> i'd imagine that it could be /etc/network/options
<ajmitch> but nooo, it's not
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> that would only make sense ;)
Remosi (dahoose@port-62-162.jet.net.nz) got netsplit.
<chillywilly> all my kernels are infected with it
<chillywilly> I had to do the same for this box
<chillywilly> this just gives me a gd excse to compile a new kernel ;)
<chillywilly> er, good
Remosi (dahoose@port-62-162.jet.net.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise.
der_edoc (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "CGI:IRC 0.5 (EOF)"
<nickr> what does gnue use for standalone executables?
<nickr> py2exe or mcmillan?
<nickr> or some other twisted concoction
nike_degresbosh (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> I think the latter
<nickr> fie
<chillywilly> fie?
<nickr> FIE!
<chillywilly> erm, ok ;)
nike_degresbosh (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "CGI:IRC 0.5 (EOF)"
StyXman (~mdione@modem69-adsl1.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.5 -- Are we there yet?"
nike_degrebosh (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
rm-sleep (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
nike_degrebosh (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left irc: Client Quit
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
rm-sleep (~rm@M704P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (jan@dial-194-8-195-37.netcologne.de) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-158.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
Action: chillywilly looks for derek
<chillywilly> derek: show time real soon now(tm)?!?
jcater (~jcater@cpe-024-165-223-104.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> hi jc
<chillywilly> yo gonna listen to WOPN tonight?
<chillywilly> s/yo/you/
<chillywilly> someone should change the topic
Action: jcater doesn't have a sound card
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> why not?
<chillywilly> you're gonna miss derek's interview ;)
<jcater> but
<jcater> I don't have my wading boots anyway
<jcater> ;)
<chillywilly> lol
Action: derek is back (gone 11:27:28)
<derek> boots? im angry you said that
<ajmitch> heh
<derek> when i talk you need waders dang it
<derek> wear boots and you will be wiping it off your pants ;)
<ajmitch> ready for your moment of glory?
<derek> not really
<derek> im hungry must find food
<derek> is wopn streaming right now?
<ajmitch> yes
<derek> grr xmms crapped on em
<derek> says
<derek> couldnt open audio
<derek> 1. correct output selected
<derek> 2. no other programs blocking
Action: LuftHans gets in from yoga and tunes in wopn
<derek> 3. sound card configured
<derek> what is nuts is im not finding anything else using it
<derek> it worked fine yesterday
<LuftHans> ogg123 -d esd http://stream.wopn.org:10000/wopn-broadband.ogg
<derek> and if i shut it down and open frozenbubble the sound on frozen bubble works so it aint the sound card
<derek> grrr
<ajmitch> esd?
<ajmitch> that's just wrong
<derek> ok have it working
<derek> somehow my setting go changed from oss to esd in xmms
<derek> how odd
<LuftHans> ajmitch: why?
<ajmitch> esd is basically unmaintained, not very good with latency
<ajmitch> i'm using a soundcard now that allows hardware mixing
<LuftHans> well, it's default for debian, so it can't be bad :)
<LuftHans> my card doesn't do hardware mixing, that would be cool
<derek> LuftHans: i would agree, BUT
<derek> they install LILO by default too ;)
<ajmitch> default for debian?
<LuftHans> oh, and I suppose you think we should be using grub
<derek> ajmitch: yip unless you use progeny
<derek> um yeah i do suppose that ;)
<LuftHans> it's only good if you want to multi-boot with lesser OSen :)
<ajmitch> default for gnome, perhaps
<derek> LuftHans: not ture
<derek> er true
<chillywilly> LuftHans: the Hurd is lesser?
<derek> LuftHans: see the light
<chillywilly> grub rules
<LuftHans> ah, OK, Hurd would be OK.
<chillywilly> :)
<derek> http://gnue.org/~dneighbo/notes/java_plugin.html
<derek> oops
<derek> http://gnue.org/~dneighbo/notes/grub.html
<LuftHans> derek: as I said before, I couldn't get grub working.
<LuftHans> yeah, I need to use that and try it again.
<chillywilly> hey I have a debian kernel mini howto I wrote
<chillywilly> (i.e., make a deb of the kernel you compiled)
<LuftHans> using kernel-package?
<chillywilly> ajmitch: thanks again dewd setting that ECN thing to 0 has really imprved my connection speed
<ajmitch> cool
<chillywilly> well actually I think these packages are cahced on my server (doh)...but the other ones weren't
<derek> LuftHans: im utterly disguisted you seconded quickbooks online
<chillywilly> LuftHans: yes
<LuftHans> derek: get NOLA working, then bitch :)
<derek> not only is it far from free software
<derek> but its an ASP
<derek> the evil twin of prop software
<derek> if i get NOLA working will azoto use it?
<derek> btw: i wont say anything on the list
<derek> i figured i could rib you here in irc 
<LuftHans> I'm planning on it. I even hope to help with being part of the drive to get it working.
<LuftHans> I figure we can get Carl to use something else, but it's one of the few business apps things for which I could have input.
<LuftHans> BTW, if we get NOLA working under similar circumstances I can probably get that CPA to start using it :).
<derek> im not concerned per say with what carl uses :) (though i would like to see him preserve his freedom)
<derek> but AZOTO should really practice what they preach :)
<chillywilly> what/who is azoto?
<derek> AriZona evil word Technology Orginzation ;)
<chillywilly> they preach Free Software?
<LuftHans> ariel zenon offers technology OOpisms
<LuftHans> if you can provide the trillions of dollars we'd need to do Free Hardware, we'll do it. Until then it's Free Software and Open Technology :)
<LuftHans> derek: I didn't say that's what AZOTO will be using, did I?
<LuftHans> short term, we might, but I intended not to indicate that
<derek> LuftHans: i read half an email out of 30 with that subject
<derek> i just saw (the cpa uses it)
<derek> and so figured you were talking about azoto
<derek> i think 'kimi' said something about using it
<LuftHans> currently there aren't any Free Software packages, so we'll have to use a non-free package until one is
<LuftHans> that or just not track accounting stuff, which is what we currently do
<derek> paper/pencil
<derek> or large marker ;
<derek> )
<LuftHans> derek: we need a tool kimi can use
Grantbow (~grantbow@12-233-20-180.client.attbi.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Connection timed out
Grantbow (~grantbow@12-233-20-180.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
esands (~nic@mdr1-port28.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
<esands> hey
<chillywilly> ho
<chillywilly> heeeeey
<chillywilly> hooooo
<chillywilly> heeeeey
[22:43] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> hooooo
<esands> sounding like a house, Mr Ed.
<chillywilly> it's mr chillywilly to you ;)
<ajmitch> hi esands, 
<esands> hey
<ajmitch> ltns
<chillywilly> derek: when you up homey?
<esands> yeah, been busy. Then my desktop had issues - both a faulty new PSU and case 
<chillywilly> when, when wheeeen!
<chillywilly> damn these packages 
<chillywilly> damn them all to hell
<esands> Had a go with the cvs version of gnucash and the new business conponents.  Now I'm fiddling around with acclite to see what thats like.
<ajmitch> ok
<esands> how is acclite at the moment?  
<derek> chillywilly: 9:15 i think
<derek> esands: its going
<derek> esands: what did you think of the gnucash stuff
Action: derek is curious, i have considered reviewing but have been too busy
<esands> I can send you the debs if you wish.  Although I need to get my desktop going first. 
Action: esands considers ...
<esands> I think the business part of gnucash is functional
<derek> um hmm
<derek> i suppose if you have them it might be worth looking at
<esands> It has promising and is usable
<esands> However, if you've used gnucash before you'll know when I says its very manual.
<esands> Still that's probably because Derek (the guy developing it) is designed it so far mostly for his own use
<chillywilly> derek: you need to school the WOPN boyz on Free Software ;)
<derek> esands: to me its nothing more than a toy, until it reads/writes to SQL database
<derek> i.e. flatfiles are just not suitable for business (imho)
<esands> I figure its current target is home size businesses  
<derek> to me its a quickbooks replacement (or sounds like)
<derek> which there is a market for, but not market persay that gnue is going after
<esands> I agree for most companys. However I've used it for my personal company for a while.  That said my personal company is very small, and I must admit in the last 6 months I've had difficults using it effective. 
<esands> It does have a sql feature though.  Unfortunately its out of date, and currently doesn;t work with the cvs version.
<esands> Definitely gnue and gnucash target different markets.  The big different though between the two products is that gnucash is stable having reached MILESTONE 1. 
<esands> Gnue is still work in progress. Useful no doubt, but still needing further work.  
<derek> we have really hit past our milestone one
<derek> as our first milestones were for the framework
<derek> not the applications
<derek> and soon now, we will enter first phase of application development
<derek> expect working goodies within the month
<derek> and kick butt goodies within 6 months
<esands> My personally experience between the two so far: I've used gnucash (although only tested the business component side of things) and I've _tried_ to use (unsucessfully) gnue for a couple spreadsheet replacement needs I have
<chillywilly> derek: you ready?!?
<derek> ?
<esands> Sure, you know what I mean by MILESTONE though. I a sense gnucash is a finished/sellable product at the moment. Gnue is quite there yet.
<chillywilly> you're next dewd
<chillywilly> interview time
<chillywilly> ;)
<derek> hmm odd i have sold it to a few customers last month alone
<derek> there is this fixation that 'shrinkwrap' means good and complete
<derek> oh well different markets i suppose
<LuftHans> derek: when he asks you to moo respond with gnu: :)
<chillywilly> LuftHans: :)
<chillywilly> I like that idea
<LuftHans> or even just gnu
<chillywilly> gnooooooooo!
<sshack> Good evening all.
<chillywilly> derek: guh-noooooo!
<derek> gary guh noooooooooooooo
<esands> Sure, but you are a core developer. Consider the part-developer who spends a lot of time doing business stuff (ie. me ;). I'm ready to do some work (hell I've compiled gnucash cvs to for myself) but I don't have a lot of time to spend trying to get things going. Or at least that's been my experience so far with gnue.  Of course since its a FS/OSS type project I've missed much in the last three months.  Things are probably different aga
Action: derek is not quite sure what to expect
<chillywilly> hehe
<esands> Hm
<esands> Something I can use. ;)
Action: chillywilly feels confident in derek's ability to articulate all that is gnu(e)
<ajmitch> have jcater & jamest been hiding lately, or just busy?
<derek> esands: what distro are you running?
<derek> ajmitch: busy
Action: chillywilly slaps jcater around
<esands> debian of course. 8)
<derek> esands: on a BLANK debian install gnue takes no longer than say 20 minutes to install (including postgres)
<chillywilly> :)
<derek> on redhat/mandrake then yes its hell, but i cant help crappy packaging ;)
<esands> sure, but the lack of documentation make it tricky to use.  Although I haven't checked the document in the last couple months.
<derek> yes docs are not quite there
<esands> I use the cvs version away.
<derek> problem is its a framework
<derek> not an application
<esands> Sure
<derek> so making docs is difficult
<LuftHans> esands: ask in here and you can get it working
<derek> as there is a certain amount of given one needs to know
<esands> but even framework needs docs, otherwise its difficult for outsiders to use.  Of course its a moving target at the moment.
<sshack> derek: Not entirely. Depends who your documentation is targeted towards.
<derek> until we get a real users manual
<derek> esands: i agree 1000%
<derek> to both comments
<sshack> api level documentation for developers using the framework is more difficult than developer level docs.
<derek> just docs for a framework (that covers all users) is a HUGE task
<derek> and we dont want our developers doing it
<derek> and we havent had volunteers :)
<esands> sshack: Its the most important though, otherwise its difficult to build a community interest in USE, not development
<esands> anyway, these are just comments for my personal experience so far.
<derek> yes i agree
<derek> we are selfish as of late
<esands> s/for/from/
<derek> we have personal needs for gnue
<derek> and so we are concentrating on the tools and our needs
<derek> we would love someone to help with docs
<esands> itches too scratch are the reason projects like this exist.  Wouldn't be fun for you to do it otherwise
<derek> as LuftHans said we are more than willing to help via irc
<sshack> derek: Why not document everything once a question or problem has arisen?
<derek> yeah
<derek> sshack: we try to
<derek> its a big job
<sshack> It is.
<derek> its on my list to finish a tutorial
<sshack> But once you start doing it, it starts to become natural.
<derek> but i am swamped have real clients need gnue applications
<sshack> ahh.
<esands> You guys probably need something like a wiki/fom.  Make document in the first instance a communitity task
Action: LuftHans plans on helping with the docs probs once he gets a couple of projects done and can move on to gnue
<derek> no wiki's suck
<esands> 8P.
<derek> actually wiki's are good for informal documentation
<derek> and throwing ideas around
<derek> but i dont think they shoudl be a documentation substitution
<esands> TWiki is pretty cool.  Of course I'm bais.  
<sshack> wiki's are perfect for informal stuff.
<LuftHans> docs with room for comments on the end are better, they're semi-wiki
<sshack> but you don't want to have to search through a wiki to find an answer to your problems.
<derek> the biggest problem you will find is we are business guys that know how to code
<esands> I think though at the moment you don't really have any formal document. Something that's easy keep up to date is more important than something that is 'formal'.
<derek> and as such we like to deal with thing slike we do in business world
<derek> i.e. get up and go to someones desk
<LuftHans> you then need someone(s) to go through comments and put the suggestions into the dos.
<derek> in our world the equivalent is IRC
<LuftHans> s/dos/docs/
<derek> once a community is big enough i encourage wiki and such
<derek> and will probalby help with getting content into it
<derek> dont expect other gnue core folks to though
<derek> as its not their style (and rightfully so, as it would only slow down their production) ;)
<esands> Actually I disagree. Business process is important to document. Otherwise if you have outsides/newbies entering a business unit without knowledge of how tasks are processed its harder to bring them up to speed without effective resources
<derek> you misunderstood me
Maniac (~User@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> i didnt say business process was unimportant to document
<derek> at work we have a professional technical writer that comes to our meetings
<sshack> Development steaming forward is good. But everyonce in a while you need to stop and checkpoint everything.
Action: chillywilly thinks derek will have to be *untangled* soon for his interview ;)
<derek> and translates our development process
<derek> i dont have that here ;)
<sshack> or else the only one's who know anything will be those in the loop/cabal/inner circle.
<derek> unless someone wants to volunteer
<esands> heh.
<derek> btw: psu does this to a degree with his kernel cousins and i adore him dearly for it
<esands> I guess you need some professional doc writes in the gnue team then. 8)
<chillywilly> core people can't do everything
<derek> chillywilly: i think thats what im trying to drive at ;)
<chillywilly> :)
<esands> definitely. kc is the only reason I'm able to follow what's happening with gnue sometimes
<sshack> Something the quality of gnu octave or gnu scientific library docs would be very useful.
<sshack> Actually the octave docs are slightly better than gsl.
<chillywilly> they are also further along
<esands> just a note outside the current discussion, its probably worth changing the acclite footer to point at the gnue web site instead of the nola site.  Its not polite otherwise.
<chillywilly> much further
<chillywilly> gsl rocks
<derek> not polite?
<derek> i figured not giving them attribution was worse
<derek> fwiw: the idea is not to have a fork
<derek> just to finish our regutting and give back to noguska
<derek> at which point if they dont like we fork
<esands> Sure, but for the purposes of bug reports acclite is not their problem.  Since its not their development
<sshack> chillywilly: I've got the dead tree books for gsl and octave. octave has by far the better manual.
<sshack> gsl is a good reference, but not a great manual.
<chillywilly> well I use gsl in a pet project of mine
<chillywilly> gsl and gnu common c++
<esands> sshack: how much they able to copy from matlab though?
<chillywilly> I have used octave too, but not fr a long while (not since I was in college)
<sshack> esands: I don't know, i've never actually seen a matlab manual. I'm a mathematica guy.
<derek> esands: good point, though it was never meant as public consumption
<derek> short of gnue folks helping us review our changes :)
<chillywilly> I jsut submitted a big patch to gnu common c++ like last weeks or so
<derek> it kind of grew into more than that, because we were slow getting changes back to nola
<jcater> ajmitch: both jamest and my jobs deal with schools
<derek> i will make the changes and commit 
<esands> sure, but having a link to the snapshots from kc makes it reasonablely public.  
<ajmitch> jcater: ok
<derek> jcater you live
<jcater> ajmitch: so come September
<jcater> jcater: all hell breaks loose for both of us
<ajmitch> oh lovely 
<jcater> s/jcater/ajmitch
<chillywilly> *joy*
<ajmitch> back to a resemblance of sanity soon?
<chillywilly> that sorta bites the big one jcater ;)
<jcater> ajmitch: yip
<jcater> ajmitch: about January 2, or so
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> that's a ways away
<ajmitch> yeah, a long way
<jcater> fsck
Action: jcater just got another desupport notice from Oracle
<jcater> happy, happy, joy, joy
<derek> poop
<chillywilly> desupport?
<jcater> chillywilly: ya
<jcater> the latest round of "if you are still using this old, old version, we won't support you any more
<jcater> old, old version = 18 months, maybe
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> what crap
<jcater> funny enough, Win98 and WinNT are desupported
<jcater> permanently
<chillywilly> you can get someone else to support you though, can't you?
<ajmitch> this isn't FS :)
<jcater> chillywilly: nah
<jcater> only reason to be supported (imho) 
<jcater> is you get free upgrades
<chillywilly> yea, but you can't get the code anyway
<chillywilly> ah
<jcater> yearlyt support contracts w/free upgrades
<chillywilly> gayness
<jcater> are much cheaper than waiting a few years and repurchasing
<esands> is there a bug with adding users in acclite?
<ajmitch> you can add users?
<jcater> beats me
<LuftHans> jcater: sounds like an excuse to move to SAPdb :)/
<jcater> LuftHans: no kidding
<jcater> but we have to much legacy code at the moment
Action: LuftHans will be calling about an Oracle job after the dneighbo i/view on WOPN, though.
<chillywilly> M$ will provide you with support s yo don't hurt yourself when they bend you over 
<jcater> (hence the reason I joined gnue 18 months ago :)
<ajmitch> derek!!!!
<esands> ajmitch: other than the default admin:password user
<ajmitch> he's on WOPN
<jcater> sigh
<ajmitch> http://streamer.wopn.org:10000/wopn-broadband.ogg
<jcater> I wish we could get a transcript
<ajmitch> http://stream.wopn.org:10000/wopn-broadband.ogg
Action: jcater is really curious what kind of promises derek is making that we will have to deliver
<jcater> :)
<esands> is there a way to get acclite to debug log sql commands to a file?
<jcater> "Oh, yeah; the GNUe-Sanitizer module will clean out your refrigerator and sanitize your toilet"
<ajmitch> it'll be archived, so you could get a transcript
<sshack> oh dear god. pc jr.
<sshack> The power.
<jcater> "And the GNUe-Carpenter can do additions, but the GNUe-Electrical module isn't yet functional"
<jcater> "But give us 2 months and she'll be able to do electrical wiring too"
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I have to run back to the city
<jcater> bbi45min
fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-021.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: chillywilly is recording =)
<LuftHans> aha! We've got him! He just admitted to writing documentation :).
<sshack> mehehehe.
<sshack> "whuh huh. uhm. uhhh. What database backends does it work with? yeah. Uhh yeah.."
<ajmitch> hehhe
<ajmitch> new release anyday?
<ajmitch> now that's something new... ;)
<sshack> The host is so bloody bored with him.
--- Tue Sep 10 2002