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<dneighbo> jcater: something about it saying 'it ownz joo'
<dneighbo> free software and women are a lot a like
<ajmitch> hmm
<dneighbo> woman: i wish you would do X
<dneighbo> man: does X
<dneighbo> woman: why the heck did you do that?
<dneighbo> man: you told me you wanted me to do that
<dneighbo> woman: no i didnt, idiot
<dneighbo> freesoftware: im broken fix me here
<dneighbo> ai: fixes here
<dneighbo> freesoftware: why did you fix me?
<dneighbo> ai: you needed to be fixed
<dneighbo> freesoftware: no i didnt, jerk, just for that im gonna break in some new way
<dneighbo> VADA BING VADA BOOM
Action: dneighbo forgot how much i loved mounds (the candy bar)
<dneighbo> move over dots there's a new confection in town 
<jcater> yeah, that's like me and donut holes
Action: jcater forgot how much I loved donut holes
<jcater> better watch out donuts!
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> how funny is this:
<dneighbo> ======================================================================
<dneighbo> Get your Microsoft®Visual Studio®) .NET 60-day trial DVD. Deploy
<dneighbo> applications easier. Code faster. Develop more robust programs in less
<dneighbo> time. Visual Studio .NET is what you need from your development tools
<dneighbo> today. Try it now and see for yourself.
<dneighbo> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4513341;7405958;k?http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/trial.asp
<dneighbo> ======================================================================
<dneighbo> not very right?
<dneighbo> how funny is it that its in a slashdot emailing?
<ajmitch> hehe
<dneighbo> very, considering mr rob malda said selling to andover would never affect his 'control' of slashdot etc etc etc
Action: jcater thinks it's a conspiracy
<jcater> after all
<jcater> think about Taco's name spelled backwards
<jcater> Ocat
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> you just think about that for a moment!
<dneighbo> ocat? im not getting it, time to continue thinkinig
<jcater> </sarcasm>
Action: jcater wets himself
Action: jcater was rereading the DB-SIG 2 spec
<jcater>    Cursor Attribute .lastrowid
<jcater>         This read-only attribute provides the rowid of the last
<jcater>         modified row (most databases return a rowid only when a single
<jcater>         INSERT operation is performed). If the operation does not set
<jcater>         a rowid or if the database does not support rowids, this
<jcater>         attribute should be set to None.
<jcater>         The semantics of .lastrowid are undefined in case the last
<jcater>         executed statement modified more than one row, e.g. when
<jcater>         using INSERT with .executemany().
<jcater>         Warning Message: "DB-API extension cursor.lastrowid used"
Action: jcater is still wetting himself
<ajmitch> hmm?
Action: dneighbo gets a towel
<dneighbo> call the cleaners, i think he has done soiled more than his shorts at this point
<ajmitch> bad jcater
<dneighbo> where are the germans today?
<dneighbo> i have question for them
<dneighbo> LuftHans: you around?
Action: dneighbo puts out call for a german speaker
<dneighbo> rock allman brothers
<dneighbo> dude i forgot i started merging my nephews music directories into mine and the families 
<dneighbo> from workstations to server
<dneighbo> and i keep finding myself going 'what the heck am i listening to?'
<dneighbo> nevermind i dont question 'Barney & Friends' in the playlist
<dneighbo> is 'gorillaz' a popular group?
<dneighbo> im finding it a lot in here from him and its well noticeably different than what i generally listen too :)
<dneighbo> lotsa 'deadsy' too
<dneighbo> jcater you applied filc's patch on db2html right?
<jcater> a modified version, yes
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> just cleaning out my email
<dneighbo> didnt know if needed to make ticket and apply or not
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<psu> hi all
<dneighbo> sup
<psu> dneighbo: gorillaz is an animated/fictious group
<psu> sorta like josie and the pussycats for the 21st Century
<dneighbo> psu can i talk here and when we are done tell you whether its something we should publish to KC or not
<dneighbo> psu: ah cool
<psu> fronted by Damien Albern from Oasis
<psu> dneighbo: ok
Action: dneighbo doesnt want to know how a middle aged CPA from the UK is so up on pop culture ;)
<psu> or something
<dneighbo> especially when it makes me feel old
<psu> dneighbo: congrats, usually you have to be 35+ before you get to say
<psu> "Who are [insert name]?
<psu> "Who are the Rolling Stones?"
<dneighbo> rofl
<psu> "A popular beat combo group, your honour, of some 
<psu> noterirty amongst the youth of today"
<dneighbo> jcater: you have a minute to talk?
<jcater> 60
<jcater> 59
<dneighbo> im getting ready to respond to
<jcater> 58
<jcater> 57
<dneighbo> > Hello,
<dneighbo> > I need a web enabled accounting software for my organization.So can i download ur Accounting software and if yes then plz send me the complete URL.
<dneighbo> > Thanking You.
<dneighbo> > Regards,
<dneighbo> > Amit Mittal,
<dneighbo> > Osprey Software Technology,
<dneighbo> > India.
<dneighbo> and am at a crux to i respond with an acclite response and fact it will be attempting to put back into nola tree
<dneighbo> or do i not mention at all
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> part of me wonders are we better off just forking
<dneighbo> since it seems nola isnt much maintained anyhow
<dneighbo> and doing more to 'market it'
<jcater> fork it, baby!
<dneighbo> we have been receiving patches
<jcater> erm
<dneighbo> and applying them :)
<jcater> that's something we need to discuss
<dneighbo> and micah and someone else were committing cvs to it
<jcater> as does the FSF copyright assignment cover the patches to that?
<dneighbo> technically yes
<dneighbo> IF we put it under GNU Enterprise
<dneighbo> as i went lawyer like on the assignments
<dneighbo> and have folks assign to GNU Enterprise
<dneighbo> which means ANYTHING under the GNUe umbrella would be covered (as thought of getting more than one assignment seemed painful)
<dneighbo> i would assignment on it would be 'less' critical in sense its already tainted with base code that isnt assigned
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<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<dneighbo> though i would PREFER all new code to it be assigned
<dneighbo> as at somepoint new code will supercede old code
<ajmitch> dneighbo: my assignment stuff came thru ok, right?
<dneighbo> im more concerned in marketing it (At least initially) like DCL
<dneighbo> i.e. Acclite as part of GNUe
<ajmitch> right
<dneighbo> but not an 'official' GNUe Accounting Package
Action: ajmitch has to run off & cook dinner now
<dneighbo> which brings me to the second item which is the backend stuff doing 
<dneighbo> wondering if this should be official unofficial gnue stuff ;)
<dneighbo> or official gnue stuff
<dneighbo> etc
<psu> If nogsaku really don't want to maintain, would they turn NOLA over rather than fork?
<dneighbo> as i need to start some marketing campaigns for a few things
<dneighbo> psu: most likely not
<psu> IMHO (FWIW) we need to decide if acclite is ever going to be the basis for GNUe Financials
<psu> if not
<dneighbo> i think that is only revelant academically at this point
<psu> (e.g. because acclite is aimed at SME, GNUe Fin at M-to-LE
<psu> we send potentially confusing msgs about project's focus
<dneighbo> as one of the tenets of gnue is umbrella for enteprise apps written w/ or w/o framework and second tenet is community of gnue apps whether official packages or not
<dneighbo> i agree its a marketing thing
<dneighbo> and right now today i would say its NOT going to be final package
<jcater> I would think not as well
<dneighbo> though it may 'evolve' into that, probably wouldnt market as such
<jcater> but it would be a great package to have under our umbrella
<psu> OTOH, an acclite in the hand is worth two GNUe Fin in the bush
<dneighbo> more rather this is stop gap,l get it done now deal
<jcater> i.e., the GNUe Accounting package for SME
<dneighbo> that we want to convert to our framework
<dneighbo> and depending on how that goes it might involve to more
<psu> jcater: squarley aimed at the bookshop around the corner ;-)
<dneighbo> at a minimum there will be a clear upgrade path if something bigger crops up
<jcater> psu: don't jest
<jcater> as you can guess what I'm using
<dneighbo> actually psu there is a secondary motive here
<jcater> until GNUe gets up to speed :)
<dneighbo> in that we are faced with about 3 different shops needing almost identical solution
<dneighbo> we have to start somewhere and SAP equivalent isnt it :)
<jcater> we need to find a POS to bring under our wings too :)
<dneighbo> so we are faced with what do we do with this backend we are writing
<dneighbo> backend = sales order, shipping, purchase order, A/R, A/P, shopping cart etc
<dneighbo> do we make it part of GNUe
<dneighbo> if so is it like acclite and 'start paks'?
<dneighbo> or is it the basis for the OFFICIAL gnue packages
<dneighbo> we have real companies committed to using it
<dneighbo> and already some code (all under GPL) 
<dneighbo> we venture others would be HIGHLY interested
<dneighbo> and would like to start marketing it
<dneighbo> but are at a crux on approach
<dneighbo> so in name of transparency and free software ideology
<dneighbo> i guess we are asking
<dneighbo> what do others think?
<psu> FWIW, I think the key thing is to get apps
<psu> and pref official GNUe Apps
<psu> even if they are more basic than where we want to end up
<dneighbo> yes i agree 100%
<dneighbo> my ONLY reservation
<dneighbo> is i dont want to look like a quickbooks replacement (As an end goal)
<psu> The new web site is deliberately more up-front about "no packages yet"
<dneighbo> by putting sme type packages out as 'official'
<psu> so we don;t have to keep saying so in IRC
<dneighbo> unlike acclite though this backend stuff is all gnue based
<dneighbo> i.e. using the framework
<LuftHans> derek: we need a good, Free Software accounting package for small to medium businesses. If acclite can get that done quickly, then I ask that acclite get fixed.
<dneighbo> one other hiccup of course is we dont have good package/module system in place
<dneighbo> that is in our master scheme
<psu> dneighbo: gear
<dneighbo> gear is i think only SCRATCHING the surface
<dneighbo> of what we have talked about in the past
Action: psu named it - probably my only contrib so far
<dneighbo> think apt for business applications :)
<dneighbo> xplatform
<dneighbo> hey german guys....
<LuftHans> is there a reason you can't have acclite as the 'quickbooks replacement', then work on whatever it is as the big package, or maybe make an accheavy...
<dneighbo> i need translator
<psu> Actually, the acclite name itself helps give the right message
<psu> as the "lite" implies there is a "heavy" as well, at least planned
<dneighbo> ============
<dneighbo> hallo,
<dneighbo> ich habe das etwas unleidliche problem, eine ca. 12 jahre alte
<dneighbo> dbase-anwendung (kleine warenwirtschaft) von "db 4" nach ... ja irgendeine
<dneighbo> sql-datenbank dachte ich.
<dneighbo> jedenfalls faende ich es toll, wenn es ein solches projekt gaebe und ich
<dneighbo> mich daran ...
<dneighbo> oh mist, ich glaub ich bin zu frueh mit meiner mail, ich sollte erst mal
<dneighbo> alles lesen was bei euch schon veroeffentlicht ist  -  
<dneighbo> betrachtet diese mail also bitte als eine etwas umstaendliche art  -
<dneighbo> "Hallo"  zu sagen.
<dneighbo> gruss
<dneighbo> hansjuergen valjent
<dneighbo> psu: meine anwendung ist fuer ein textilunternehmen (ca. 5 mitarbeiter) - ich
<dneighbo> bin etwas ueber 50 - und werde mich nach einer laengeren zeit im bereich
<dneighbo> server-administration wieder dem entwickeln zuwenden.
<dneighbo> ============
<dneighbo> is that spam or a cry for help?
<dneighbo> im not worried about acclite :)
<dneighbo> i see it as before like DCL
<dneighbo> a non GNUe Framework app pointed to as part of gnue
<dneighbo> migrating towards the framework slowly
<dneighbo> im more concerned about the backend stuff i discussed
<dneighbo> which will i assume start to replace or merge with parts of acclite
<dneighbo> as when looking at A/P, A/R that is one area we though, we should really just reuse acclite
<psu> To what extent does the backend stuff conflict with our plans for GNUe Financials?
<dneighbo> for a quick advancement
<dneighbo> it doesnt
<psu> I.e. modular design means that it can talk to either acclite or GNUe Fin
<dneighbo> what im envisioning is the backend stuff is exactly what i want gnue to do long term
<dneighbo> its just starting out small
<dneighbo> i.e. baby steps
<psu> esp sinceGNUe Fin doesn't exist yet and can be made to fit
<dneighbo> put it this way 
<jcater> well
<jcater> I named it AccLite for a reason
<jcater> :)
<jcater> as that's what I saw it as
<dneighbo> current time lines dictate fully functional backend from sales order to warehouse to ups to door to invoice to payment
<jcater> a light-weight entry-level accounting package
<dneighbo> w/in 3 - 6 months minimum
<reinhard> good morning all
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<reinhard> jcater: time to go to bed!
<jcater> gah!
<reinhard> ;)
<btami> morning all
<dneighbo> without a 'ton' of bells and whistles
<dneighbo> which from what i have seen just on the local LUG list here
<jcater> man
<jcater> it's 1:30
<dneighbo> people are darn near dying for
<psu> dneighbo: IMHO, as long as we managed expectations (e.g. kep version numbers under 1.0.0)
<psu> I don't see why we can't call what you are working on 
<dneighbo> and its not gnucash small business or sql-ledger or the likes that is basically accounting with some invoicing features
<dneighbo> but full cycle supply chain stuff
<psu> GNUe SCM 0.1,
<dneighbo> that is HIGHLY extendable quickly
<psu> GNUe Inventory 0.1 
<psu> etc
<psu> i.e it's there, use it, but it ain't 1.0 functionality yet
<psu> and yes, we do accept patches
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<psu> After all, the tools were pretty basic to start with but still useful within their limitations
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> crikey
<dneighbo> we have this stuff in private cvs currently
<dneighbo> i suppose before i go committing a ton more crap
<dneighbo> we will need to decide if we want this else where
<jcater> well
Action: dneighbo was thinking if it were to remain 'non official'
<dneighbo> it could stay where it is
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> if its 'official' i want assignments and it should be in savannah and then a whole other argument can ensue on what folders names and such to use :)
<dneighbo> the bad thing is because of timelines a lot of stuff cant be discussed in length to make most optimal decisions
<dneighbo> another reason i questioned should it be official gnue
<dneighbo> no one could decipher that german email i pasted :(
<reinhard> dneighbo: re the german mail
<reinhard> i couldn't find out what he wants, too
<psu> sometimes the only way to prove something is a bad decision is to make it ;-)
<reinhard> although i speak german quite well
<reinhard> dneighbo: if you are talking about the mail to info@gnue.org
<dneighbo> yeah
<jcater> I propose we make it GNUe's SME entry-level accounting package (at least until our main package gets underway)
<dneighbo> psu: im starting to feel that way
<jcater> and that we put it on savannah
<dneighbo> only bad decision is no decision at all principle
<jcater> but not under gnue/
<jcater> perhaps gnue-acclite
<dneighbo> right not under gnue
<jcater> or gnue-accounting-lite
<dneighbo> i dont like acclite as name plate
<jcater> or gnue-entry-level-accounting-starter-package
<dneighbo> for just web acct nola port im cool with it
<dneighbo> but for the backend stuff
<dneighbo> its MUCH more than accounting
<jcater> nah
<jcater> it's entry level accounting
<jcater> don't go overboard
<dneighbo> well im half tempted to make it mimic our packages on our home page
<psu> GNU-ANQ (acclite's not quickbooks)
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> my point is that you are starting to talk BIG again
<dneighbo> and point to them
<jcater> we've talked BIG for a while
<jcater> it's entry level accounting :)
<dneighbo> sigh
<jcater> a stepping-stone to the bigger GNUe stuff
<dneighbo> yes i just want our home page to not look like we dont have anything if we start to have somethign :)
<jcater> at least that's how I see it
<jcater> but I guess I'm in the minority here
<dneighbo> but dont want people to be confused that its the end game
<jcater> no shit
<jcater> that's WHY I keep saying
<jcater> "lote"
<jcater> err lite
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> lote
<jcater> and that it's nothing more than accounting
<dneighbo> ok
<jcater> you keep making it into "backend services" etc
<dneighbo> well thats what i have to deliver
<dneighbo> so thats what im thinking of :)
<psu> split the site - have a prominent link to "Friends of GNUe" that maps to friends.gnuenterprise.org
<jcater> you will be delivering backend services
<psu> or even www.gnuefans.org
<dneighbo> but how do we do this web page wise?
<dneighbo> how do i market this 
<jcater> that at the moment interface with the SME accounting package
<dneighbo> if its not from the main gnue pages
<dneighbo> lite.gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> with REAL simple webpage
<jcater> psu: how about a www.gnueScrewedMeToo.org?"
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> oh crap i nearly fell out of my chair
Action: dneighbo was thinking
<dneighbo> www.sincerechains.org
<jcater> are we the microsoft of the Free software world?
<jcater> embrace-and-extend?
<dneighbo> for the developer url
<dneighbo> jcater:  if you cant beat them, extend them
<dneighbo> sadly in our case its laziness vs greed ;)
<dneighbo> tell me how to 'market' this from a web perspective
<dneighbo> and we can move forward
<dneighbo> do we make it accessible as part of gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> do we do subdomain? do we just using a savannah url?
<dneighbo> im thinking webpage can be very simplistic
<jcater> dneighbo: me too
<jcater> I think we download NOLA's
<jcater> and sed it
<dneighbo> gack no
<jcater> ok, boys and guys
<jcater> dneighbo: that was a joke
<dneighbo> ;)
<jcater> we now have custom authenticators in common
Action: dneighbo now wets self
<jcater> so you can authenticate against NIS, LDAP, database, 
<jcater> your mom
<dneighbo> how hard woudl it be to add in PAM?
<jcater> dneighbo: it's a stub
<dneighbo> as i just picked up a good article in pam implementation
<jcater> I've never programmed against PAM in python
<dneighbo> maybe i will add it ;)
<jcater> but it should be REALLY easy
<jcater> ok, it's going on 2:00
<dneighbo> web space
<jcater> I really should sleep
<dneighbo> where?
<dneighbo> then you can go to bed
<dneighbo> or do you want to sleep on it
<jcater> what's wrong with putting it on the GNUe pages?
<jcater> but labeling it like I said
<jcater> "SME"
<jcater> or such
<jcater> as long as it's clear that this is not "THE" gnue accounting package
<jcater> but a slimmed down version
<psu> GNUe SME is an umbrella for GNUe packages aimed at SME.
<jcater> GNUe Mom-and-Pop
<psu> At the moment, the SME packages are in advance of the official ones
<jcater> psu: but I think that's ok
<psu> This should change over time.
<psu> We are/are not aware of any limitations in GNUe SME that make it unsuitable
<jcater> I must sleep
<psu> for larger biz, but that's not the target market
<jcater> dneighbo: are you satisfied with my answer?
<psu> I must work
<jcater> can I sleep now?
<psu> From what I can remember of the GNUe GL spec, I would guess acclite 
<psu> probably has more functionality anyway
<jcater> I personally think we should remove some features of acclite
<psu> as GNUe GL spec was (deliberately) unambitious
<jcater> if we make it our official SME
<psu> but it's been almost a year since I grokked it
<jcater> e.g., payroll
<jcater> as I think that'll be overcomplicating the initial package
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<jcater> but I haven't thought that thru
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<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> psu you should have a fun KC to write 
<dneighbo> as i imagine this will spark this channel for a few days
<dneighbo> reinhard: release 
<dneighbo> er re : release
<dneighbo> and 
<dneighbo> hammering out details of this
<dneighbo> then of course i plan on a press release
<dneighbo> 'seriously'
<dneighbo> which means more traffic 
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<dneighbo> muhahahaha
<dneighbo> no football for you
<dneighbo> i need sleep too
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<dneighbo> see ya all in the AM
<dneighbo> gilbert time
Action: dneighbo is away: sleepy pooh
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<ajmitch> hey sis
<ajmitch> siesel: 
<ajmitch> sigh
<ajmitch> never rely on tab completion ;)
<siesel> hi ajmitch
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<reinhard> brb
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Action: siesel will never remove fileutils again :(
<ajmitch> siesel: it broke bad?
<siesel> no "rm","ls", etc. anymore.
<siesel> luckily scp still worked so I finally copied rm from a distant host.
<ajmitch> why'd you need to do that?
<ajmitch> does dpkg rely on them to install new package?
<siesel> then dpkg worked again and I could install that **** coreutils package
<ajmitch> ah :)
<ajmitch> i'll know not to remove fileutils then
<siesel> some tools have moved from fileutils to coreutils
<ajmitch> yup
<ajmitch>  --- Cannot join #debian (User limit reached).
<ajmitch> hmmm
<siesel> btw. I'm populating that new top-level samples directory, what do you think is better?
<ajmitch> i haven't looked yet
<siesel> keeping all report files in a report directory, all form files in a form directory or
<ajmitch> ah
<siesel> have some example specific directorys, i.e. all files of the zipcode example should move to zipcode directory etc.
<ajmitch> i think that mixing related forms, reports, etc, is a good idea
<ajmitch> yes
<siesel> ok, do you think that having a zipcode/forms a zipcode/reports and a zipcode sql/gsd directory make sense?
<ajmitch> yeah
<siesel> sometimes there is just one form in an example sometimes just one report, sometimes alltogether 4-5 files,  maximum of all files in a sample is 8 or 10 (if you don't count sql files)
Action: ajmitch wants a working designer :)
<siesel> which part is broken?
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Action: siesel corrects himself: which broken part do you mean?
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> missing wxpython
Action: siesel really don't know, why jcater don't like the idea of rewriting designer to use gtk2 ;)
<ajmitch> :)
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<ajmitch> hi
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<ra3vat__> hi all
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<ariel_> hi siesel
<siesel> hi ariel
<ajmitch> hi 
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<siesel> could anyone have a look at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/samples and tell me, if this kind of toplevel samples would be ok, or not, critics comments :)
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<siesel>  /anyone/someone/
<siesel> Hi yurik
<Yurik> siesel: hi
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<ajmitch> wb siesel
<siesel> hi ajmitch, it seems that my comp. is not as stable as I would like too. :(
<ajmitch> oh :(
<siesel> jamest: could you have a look at www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/samples and tell me, if that could be a directory layout for the new toplevel samples directory
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<siesel> hi Jason,
<siesel> siesel] jamest: could you have a look at
<siesel>          www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/samples and tell me, if that could be a
<siesel>          directory layout for the new toplevel samples directory
<dneighbo> jan works for me
<dneighbo> THOUGH
<dneighbo> it might be better to kill applications and historical_examples
<dneighbo> eventually i want test cases and tutorials to run off a nice gpd
<dneighbo> so that you get a tree list of test cases to walk through
<dneighbo> or you get a walk through tutorial
<dneighbo> MUCH like the wxWindows demo/sample
<siesel> if you pack the whole sample directory in a zip file, and rename it to samples.gear, you can get that navigator file automaticly builded. just call gncvs samples.gear
<ajmitch> dneighbo: agreed
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<ajmitch_> argh
<siesel> I agree on killing applications and historical sample, but would move contact manager to packages, and application/location to tutorials
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<siesel> I hope that we have a gnue schema installer in the next release, then we can throw all the sql files in the samples directory away :) 
<ajmitch> that would be nice :)
<jcater> I just wish our schema stuff didn't depend on XSLT
<jcater> :(
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> why not like xslt?
<jcater> yet another dependency to be installed before you can play
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> well im not really pro writing our own
<jcater> plus apparently ppl are haveing trouble with pysablot on Win32 machines
<dneighbo> to include it in gnue
Action: jcater sees XSLT as a short-term solution
<jcater> not a long-term one
<jcater> so I guess it works now
<dneighbo> i.e. im not sure we want to make a gnue parser for it
<dneighbo> it works VERY well for gsd stuff
<dneighbo> where i think it will likely fall more short is reports
<jcater> oh, we will have a GNUe parser for it
<dneighbo> and there i see it as just one of many options
<jcater> it will become an extension of the dbdrivers
<dneighbo> sigh
<jcater> and the dbdrivers will be able to create tables directly based on gsd files
<dneighbo> that ruins a lot
<jcater> but this is down the road
<jcater> ?
<siesel> why?
<dneighbo> as one of the powerful things to me is that for OTHER projects to adopt this currently all they need is an XSLT parser
<dneighbo> in the future if all they need to adopt it is GNUe Common we lose a lot of people using it
<jcater> that's no small barrier to entry
<jcater> !
<dneighbo> its smaller and less 'political' than requiring common
<jcater> sigh
Action: jcater sees the XSLT solution as a bad, short-term workable one
<jcater> one that works
<jcater> but with many limitations
<dneighbo> i agree i dont like it the dependency
<dneighbo> maybe we can make it like reports
<dneighbo> and allow xslt to still be used
<dneighbo> or use native gnue components
<dneighbo> i think we need to be careful to try to use (or be standards compatiable) where possible
<jcater> gsd is no standard?
<jcater> s/?/
<jcater> it's something we came up with
<jcater> I'm all for other projects being able to benefit from it
<jcater> but only to the point that it fulfills our needs
<dneighbo> thats not what i meant
<jcater> s/it/it still/
<dneighbo> i meant that XSLT is a standard
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> gnue common parser is not
<jcater> I don';t exactly see how that relates at all
<siesel> we need more than the xslt solution. The xslt solution is good and important. f.e. for populating empty databases, but we need something like a real schema installer 
<jcater> then let's get rid of GNUe Forms and do an XSLT engine
<dneighbo> jcater: you are missing my point
<jcater> but I think you are missing mine!
<jcater> well, I must start working now
<dneighbo> im not AGAINST moving away from XSLT though we should probably still support/maintain it
<siesel> a real schema installer could tell you the differences between the actual schema in the database and the schema in the GSD file
<jcater> since they are paying me :)
<dneighbo> for others to use
<jcater> siesel: yes! I agree
<jcater> dneighbo: I never said otherwise
<jcater> I just said at some point dbdrivers will support it natively
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<jcater> I never said you couldn't have xslt as well
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<Arturas> Hello
<Yurik> Arturas: hi
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<psu> hi all
<stbain> <dneighbo> i think we need to be careful to try to use (or be standards compatiable) where possible
<stbain> perhaps now would be a good time to bring up XUL again? ;)
<psu> hmm, to me part of being a standard is to have people using it
<psu> which XUL seriously lacks (last time I heard)
<psu> I mean, I can sit down at my kitchen table and define a standard for something
<psu> but unless it gets accepted by the community
<psu> it;s all academic
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<Mr_You> hi
[12:23] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<Mr_You> !seen seisel
<Mr_You> as the channel grows that could become useful ;-)
<stbain> dneighbo: you still alive in there?
<Arturas> bye
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<Chipaca> hi all
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<StyXman> hi there
<Chipaca> jcater: are you here
<Chipaca> ?
<Chipaca> well, anyhow, I understand y'all read the irc logs a lot, so
<Chipaca> ----
<StyXman> Chipaca: and I cite: "I don't read irc logs a lot..." --jcater :-/
<Chipaca> we need to add support for tables that don't update their fields via an update, but via marking the row as 'old' (via a timestamp)
<Chipaca> StyXman: 
<Chipaca> rats
<Chipaca> oh, ok, I'll wait
Action: Chipaca waits
[13:07] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
Action: Chipaca gets tired of busy-waiting
<Chipaca> jamest_: umm are you here?
<jcater> um
<jcater> stranger things have happened
<jcater> wassup?
<Chipaca> jcater: hi!
<Chipaca> did you read ^^^
<Chipaca> anyhow, i repeat
<Chipaca> we need to add support for tables that don't update their fields via an update, but via marking the row as 'old' (via a timestamp)
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<jcater> um
<StyXman> hi filc
<jcater> you lost me
<filc> hi StyXman
<Chipaca> we were about to do this via a 'papo' dbdriver, but we thought maybe it could be taken to a point where other people could use it
<Chipaca> in papo tables that should behave like this have two fields, a start_t and an end_t, but that should be configurable if we were to make it part of gnue
<Chipaca> jcater: where did I lose you?
Action: StyXman seraches in his pockets for jcater
<Chipaca> jcater: tables that keep a historic record of themselves, and as such don't ever update, but mark rows as no longer valid
<Chipaca> jcater: thus you can have a snapshot of the system at any previous point in time
<jcater> ah
<jcater> a transactional system
<Chipaca> jcater: umm I'm not sure if I can explain it better
<Chipaca> jcater: call it what you would :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> eek
<Chipaca> gdb ./jcater core
<jcater> I do that here at work with database-level triggers
<jcater> I'm not sure how to do that cleanly at the client level
<Chipaca> jcater: in the dbsig, by saying 'this table uses whatever', and which columns do the dirty work 
<Chipaca> jcater: we could come up with something very, very, very ugly and it would still be nicer than triggers in the database
<Chipaca> :)
<Chipaca> s/dbsig/databse driver/
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<derek> jcater is v0.3.0 windows broken w/ postgres entirely?
<derek> or just certain aspects?
<jcater> just the ability to login to the database
<jcater> everything else works
<derek> fsck
Action: derek has stuff written here been using in GNU/Linux and need to give to user, but of course user only has windows
<derek> cvs broked too
<jcater> is it?
<derek> i.e. regardless of driver its broken?
Action: filc thinks that transaction history should be handled by the appserver stuff... not the db level.  e.g. Sales Order History, Audit Trail
<derek> i dont know that was a question 'cvs broked too?'
<derek> for windows
<jcater> I dunno
Action: derek might have a machine to test it on
<derek> could be your lucky day
<jcater> cool
<jcater> grab cvs and check her out
Action: Chipaca waits, ever patient
<derek> python 2.1 installed
<derek> wx 2.2 installed
<jcater> Chipaca: I hope you're not waiting for me
<jcater> I don't have a clean solution that I like
<jcater> :(
<derek> rofl: i dont think i have postgres stuff 
<Chipaca> jcater: ok, we'll come up with something semi-clean and push it at you ]:)
<derek> only db2 ;)
<derek> we still have snapshots readily available
<jcater> ya
<Chipaca> We need it for papo, but as I say, we were going to do it out of gnue completely, so if you don't like it it's still A-ok
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/hourly/
<jcater> iirc
<Chipaca> just thtat we thought it might be of more general use
<derek> does setup-cvs.py work on windows?
<jcater> derek: most definitely not
Action: derek needs a guide to cvs gnue on windows
<derek> its been too long since i used windows :)
<derek> windows is hard to use ;)
<derek> do they have a Windows User Group I could email for help on Windows? ;)
<jcater> ya
<jcater> jamest@gnue.org
<jcater> I heard he loves it
<jcater> and loves to help clueless windows ppl
<derek> hey i think he runs the SUG (Solaris User Group) too
<derek> so do i just do setup.py in each dir for windows cvs?
<derek> this should be fun
Action: StyXman wishes you luck
<jcater> derek: yup
<Chipaca> jcater: does the above sound reasonable to you?
<derek> dklasdjfl;sdjfkla
<derek> why the hell doesnt dos have scrollable backlog
<derek> or tab complete
<filc> doskey
Action: derek mutters some derogatory comments about  this stupid operating system that is so EASY to use
<Chipaca> jcater: also, what's the status of multi-table thing?
<StyXman> derek: tab completion: 4dos
<Chipaca> derek: cygwin
<derek> sigh
<derek> python21 doesnt have wx
<derek> or doesnt have mx datetime 
<derek> this iwll be fun
<Chipaca> derek: mx datetime
Action: derek is uninstalling python20 and all its goodies
<derek> and getting an environment all setup to run windows cvs of gnue
<derek> all i can say is i must 'REALLY' like GNUe
<derek> as i wouldnt wish this process even on Chipaca
<jcater> derek: we accept patches
<derek> this isnt a complaint about gnue its one about windows
<derek> i hope to create a patch so that we have a distributable windows client that works wth postgres ASAP
<filc> jcater: :)
<jcater> oooooo
<jcater> what will we call integrator files?
<jcater> .gid is a fairly common extension
<derek> gack gid is a windows thing
<derek> what is an integrator file exactly
<jcater> it's a file that integrator reads
<derek> in respect to what will it contain
<derek> mappinsgs and triggers i suppose
<jcater> data mappings
<jcater> and triggers
<jcater> yeah
<derek> hmmm
<filc> .map
<derek> gmd
<derek> filc we are limited to one letter :)
<derek> as g for gnue
<derek> and d for definition 
<derek> grd
<derek> gcd
<derek> gfd
<filc> derek: expand your keyboard :)
<derek> gsd
<filc> only 26 (ish) different file types then
<derek> .gmd gnue mapping definition
<derek> or .gid gnue integrator definition
<filc> gmd
<jcater> gmd looks like it should be medical related
<derek> gtd
<derek> gnue translator definition
<jcater> gmd - GNUe Merge Definition
<jcater> gmd does work at several levels I guess
<jcater> Merge
<jcater> Map
<jcater> Migration
<derek> but tis more than merge
<derek> i guess its ok
<Chipaca> gif - GNUe Integrator file
<Chipaca> :)
<Chipaca> ggg - gnue goes global
<derek> jcater i found psycopg win binaries
<derek> fsck but its built for python 2.2
<derek> guess its time to grab python2.2 of everything
<StyXman> will gnue stay with 2.1 or will be a switch to 2.2 any time soon?
<jcater> gnue is still 2.0
<StyXman> also, derek, how can we help with the release, then?
<derek> we are 2.x
<derek> but on windows looks like to get pyscopg bindings i need 2.2
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<StyXman> how can I switch to gtk2?
<jcater> -u gtk2
<StyXman> ack
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<derek> ok designer and forms installed on windows w/ python2.2 and wx2.3
<derek> now if i can get the database connection stuff to work
<stbain> I know the ODBC works
<stbain> but then you lose introspection
<stbain> not sure about the direct Postgres drivers
<derek> jcater the postgres driver is working (at least in designer) whooo hooo
<derek> psycopg even!!!!
Action: derek will need a doc real soon on how to make the builds for windows
<stbain> the wonders of modern technology
<derek> as i want to relesae 0.3.1 i think
<stbain> derek
<stbain> while I have your ear
<stbain> perhaps you can rehash some of the XUL things for me
<derek> with  python2.2, wx2.3 and psycopg
<derek> ok go at it
<stbain> well... I was introduced to XUL a week or so ago by a co-contractor at one of our mutual customers
<stbain> seems like it would actually fit quite well
<stbain> it's not browser based
<stbain> rather, a cross platform GUI builder
<stbain> and now that Mozilla is moving towards MPL/LGPL/GPL tri-licensing
<jcater> GUI? or UI?
<jcater> as theres a big difference
<stbain> ok... uhm... how about "replacement for what we're trying to accomplish with Forms"
<derek> ROCK forms works too!
<stbain> granted, the databindings are quite as strong yet, but from what I've seen so far, it's a very feature rich language
Action: derek hugs his pyscopg driver binary
<stbain> I haven't delved deep enough to really get a hold of what it can and can't do yet
<derek> hold up hold up hold up
<stbain> ok
<derek> a lot of it goes to 3 years ago when we made a decision
<stbain> right
<stbain> I saw some of that
<derek> part of the problem is also mozilla and gecko arent well separate (though much better now)
<derek> and requiring mozilla as a 'client' is a bit much
<derek> the databinding isnt even on the roadmap
<stbain> have you seen ActiveState's Komodo IDE?
<derek> where in gnue the databinding IS the product
<stbain> perhaps you can give me a nutshell explanation of XBL
<derek> fwiw: you could use navigator in same way you want to use mozilla
<derek> i.e. it could read gfd's over http just fine
<derek> and you have an 'internet' application
<derek> im just seeing NO real value in scrapping all our work
<derek> and starting with XUL and having to do their databinding for them
<stbain> I think the databindings may already be there in XBL
<stbain> but I haven't had time to read into it too much
<derek> I do see value in someone over there getting head out of sand and looking to add XPCOM to gnue-common
<derek> then use gnue-common databasde for bindings
<derek> and even possibly making a forms client that renders XUL
<derek> i guess im saying there wouldnt be much you could say to convince me to drop our current path to go to XUL
<derek> i like XUL, hell i tried to write GNUe in XUL first (milestone 9) 
<stbain> right... I gathered that from the KC and whatnot
<derek> and got sick of the frustration
<derek> i think a better question might be one that chilly mentions often
<derek> it is a standard 
<derek> it is actually a w3c standard
<stbain> XUL is?
<derek> XUL is a netscape standard
<derek> just like GFD is a GNUe based standard
<derek> currently none of the 3 is WIDELY adopted
<derek> and currently only GNUe focuses on DATA
<derek> er databinding
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<derek> XUL does all this great databinding to RDF/RSS which is basically XML data streams, not what an enterprise will be storing its data in and horribly slow for large data heaps
<derek> jcater: is it easy to make .exes for windows?
<derek> i ahve working system
<stbain> py2exe
<jcater> define "easy"
<stbain> it's not that hard
<jcater> py2exe won't work w/GNUe iirc
<stbain> oh
<derek> or maybe if i send you the goodies you can do it?
<jcater> we use McMillan + INNO
<derek> stbain: you miss my point
<derek> python .exe's are easy
<derek> working python .exe install for GNUe == not so easy
<jcater> derek: email me a patch
<stbain> right
<derek> no patch necessary
<stbain> I didn't know that py2exe + GNUe == doh!
<derek> simply use python 2.2 , egenix for 2.2 , wx2.3 for 2.2 and the psycopg driver
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<jcater> url for psycopg driver?
<derek> um
<derek> http://www.stickpeople.com/projects/python/psycopg/
<siesel> Mr_You: you still here?
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<siesel> StyXman: That transaction stuff can be added quite fast to the application server. If papo don't want to additionaly start appserver, there will be a way using that loopback RPC driver to start appserver every time you start up forms, as an additional thread. 
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<derek> jcater did we lose you?
<jcater> no
<derek> you be able to get to a windows boxen today?
<derek> and test teh psycopg driver and install
Action: derek thinks its working well here
<jcater> working on it
<jcater> these things take time
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<StyXman> siesel: lemme ask the other guys.
<derek> ah
<derek> didnt know if you would have tie to work on it, that was the question
<derek> siesel: im not sure i like that solution
<derek> one of the tenents of GNUe is
<derek> productss work alone or together
<derek> of course common is the exception
<derek> and designer isnt necessary much if dont have at  least one other product installed
<derek> but the itdea was you would not be required to have appserver ifyou didnt want it
<derek> you would nto be required ot have reports if you didnt want it
<derek> i have no problem making transactions and such happen in appserver, but i dont think that you can require appserver to have transactions
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<StyXman> hi chillywilly 
<chillywilly> howdy
<siesel> jcater: can you add an sapdb driver to the windows installer?
<jcater> I was just looking for the sapdb drivers
<jcater> and can't seem to find them
<siesel> btw. do you use mcmillan 4 or mcmillan 5?
<jcater> 4
<jcater> 5 introduced a new config file format
<jcater> and it took a lot of trial and error to tweak the 4 config file
<jcater> so we haven't migrated yet
<jcater> 5 looks much more impressive
<jcater> but 4 is getting the job done :)
<jcater> anyone know where the win32 drivers for sapdb arE?
<siesel> I did 1 hour of trial and error, before leaving 5 alone again
Action: chillywilly sees lots of cvs commits
<chillywilly> good work dudes :)
<siesel> on http://www.sapdb.org/sap_db_downloads.htm#tgz is a sapdb-python....
<jcater> I was just there and completely missed that
<jcater> um
<jcater> if it requires WinNT/2000
<jcater> then we are SOL
<siesel> if sapdb just runs on WinNT/2000, Firebird seems to be a better choice.
<jcater> what are you looking for?
<jcater> as those are two different classes of databases
<jcater> if you are wanting a compact database
<jcater> SAP-DB is definitely not what you want
<chillywilly> mysql ;)?
<chillywilly> oh sorry I thought you said relatinal file system ;)
<chillywilly> relational even
Action: siesel searches a database which supports a bit more complex sql than mysql does.
<siesel> And it should run on both UNIX and WIN95/98 systems.
<jcater> I wonder if firebird wouldn't be best for those requirements
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<jcater> I want to make toys
<jcater> :(
<StyXman> Error: Unable to open file
<StyXman>      [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'gnue-forms.dtd'
<StyXman> ah?!?
<jcater> huh?
<jcater> what are you doing?
<StyXman> trying gtk2 under sid
<jcater> wtf
<StyXman> wild guess: the parser tries to load the dtd?
<jcater> nope
<jcater> better not
<jcater> or I may be kicking someone's ass
<jcater> the DTD is for documentation only
<jcater> i.e., it's a reference
<jcater> it's not actually used by the code
<StyXman> I know
<StyXman> grep'ing...
<StyXman> nothing?!?
<StyXman> yes, it *tries* to load it...
<StyXman> mdione@tempest:~/src/work/fvl/papo/forms$ head client.gfd
<StyXman> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<StyXman> <!--DOCTYPE form SYSTEM "gnue-forms.dtd"-->
<StyXman> if the last line is not a comment, *something* tries to load the dtd...
<jcater> where'd that <!--DOCTYPE--> come from?
<StyXman> emacs, I guess
<jcater> ah
Action: StyXman doesn't use it
<chillywilly> remove the line ;)
<jcater> ya
Action: StyXman whispers some other names
<jcater> like chillywilly said
<StyXman> yea, removed.
<StyXman> works
<StyXman> 'let emacs do the magic' they say...
<StyXman> is the first time I hit this one... could be the version of sax that I use?
<StyXman> ||shri harih||?!?
<StyXman> wtf?!?
<StyXman> my windows say it's
<StyXman> || SHRI HARIH ||
<StyXman> ah?!?
<jcater> is that hindi for
<jcater> "you been ownzed" ?
<StyXman> I guesss
<jcater> I dunno what that is
<StyXman> ok, gtk2 is discarded for a while
<StyXman> alas, it's hard to setup in woody's
<derek> let me pipe in
<derek> firebird imho is par from 'lite' which is a good thing not a bad one
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<jcater> par or far?
<jcater> well, by "lite" I meant "doesn't need dedicated machine"
<derek> but the real thing i wished to interject is if you are using a SQL level db on 95/98 you are CRAZY!!!!!!
<jcater> if you want lite-lite, I think I'm liking sqlite
<derek> far
<derek> this fscking irc client is miserable
<jcater> anyone know where I can find a Tux costume for halloween?
<nickr> you could make one
<nickr> like a true fanboy
Action: jcater would prefer to be the FreeBSD devil
<jcater> but tux is probably more appropriate
<derek> correct
<nickr> you could be the openbsd blowfish
<jcater> or I could be the GNU Hurd
<jcater> but I haven't found
<jcater> a cloak of invisibility yet
Action: jcater ducks
Action: siesel don't want to use it on win95/98, but I have to show, that it works on win95/98 too
<derek> yeah that would do wonders in the south.....
<nickr>  jcater: you suck.
<jcater> thanks
<StyXman> jcater: what about gnu's gnu?
<siesel> Is there a sshd for windows?
<chillywilly> the hurd mascot would be a herd of gnus
<chillywilly> no one wants to be a "gnu", it's not cool enough ;)
<chillywilly> tux is where it's at yo
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> anyone know the command to make exim resend the frozen mail in /var/spool/exim/input?
<siesel> jcater: can you include the connection.gfd in the windows installer, it would be cool to have a shortcut in the menu for that
<siesel> I think: exim -qff 
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<derek> siesel : cygwin : re: sshd windows
<siesel> derek: thx.
<siesel> I will try tomorow.
<siesel> night
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<derek> jcater: did you get anywhere on the windows packaging?
<jcater> I spent an hour on it
<jcater> then had to do some other work
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I have to start from square one
<ajmitch> hi people
<jcater> because it's python 2.2
<jcater> :(
<derek> did pyscopg work for you?
<jcater> it installed on
<jcater> s/on/ok
<filc> jcater: Do you have some time to answer some questions on forms?
<filc> jcater: I'm confused as to how "moving" the focus works.
<filc> jcater: In wx and gtk the form is initialised and when activated the "mainloop" is started
<filc> jcater: How then does GNUe forms control tab/focus order?
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<jcater> filc: gtk and wx are UI toolkits
<filc> jcater: yep
<jcater> part of their responsibility is controlling focus/tab order
<jcater> we do intercept their attempts to move the focus
<jcater> and create a nextEntry event
<jcater> (iirc)
<StyXman> what the _featureTest in appserver?
<filc> ... ok.  I think I need re-do the focus/tab side of nstti
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<chillywilly> filc: experimental drug-induced code of an appserver...a version with extra features
<chillywilly> a "testing area"
<ajmitch> woohoo! drugs!
Action: ajmitch bounces
Action: chillywilly thwaps ajmitch with an M$ EULA
Action: ajmitch chews it up & spits it out!
<chillywilly> hehe!
Action: chillywilly waits for his server to finish upgrading packages
<chillywilly> la, la, la
Action: ajmitch waits for this to finish downloading
<ajmitch> 15min to go...
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<chillywilly> anyone thought of someone to nominate for: http://www.gnu.org/award/2002/2002.html ?
Action: filc is checking out curses libform
Action: filc sees you've already been down this road pyncurses!!
<Mr_You> someone cut a telco cable here today :-((
<filc> Andrew Tridgell
<ajmitch> interesting choice
<dneighbo> has United Linux gotten caught with its hand in the cookie jar?
<ajmitch> how?
<Mr_You> are labels supposed to be inside <block>s?
<dneighbo> http://lwn.net/Articles/9629/
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> http://lwn.net/Articles/10257/
<dneighbo> specifically
<dneighbo> wonder what our boys in cordoba have to say about this....
<dneighbo> http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s645107.htm
<dneighbo> Argentina GoatSucker Gets Retirement Pension ;)
<Mr_You> anyways, glaccount.gfd has labels outside the bloc
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<ajmitch> hi
<jcater> howdy
<Mr_You> so essentially parts or all of the dtd is hardcoded into the client and only the gfd file is read which then the interface is created by comparing the elements in the gfd file to the hardcoded interface parts?
<Mr_You> anyone?
<jbailey> Buhler...
<Mr_You> after the gfd file is parsed
<jbailey> Buhler...
<ajmitch> uhh...
<Mr_You> ?
<jcater> whew
<jcater> that was a mouthful
<jcater> lemme re-read it again
<chillywilly> jbailey: :P
Action: ajmitch has no idea what jbailey means
<jcater> Mr_You: yip
<jcater> ajmitch: gasp!
<jcater> it's a cult classic
<Mr_You> ok
<ajmitch> uh ok
<Mr_You> so next thing I need to do is figure out how to do "x,y" interface for web form and I'm half way there.
<jcater> ajmitch: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0091042
<filc> good film
<filc> night night
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<Mr_You> I spell it bueller
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<ddttmm> dneighbo: has anyone approached http://www.synitech.com/ ?
<ddttmm> they have a web UI.  they should consider GNUe for the backend, if GNUe's any good for it yet.
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<chillywilly> ddttmm: werd
<ddttmm> chillywilly: wh0rd
<chillywilly> whiiirrrrred
<jcater> ddttmm: quite a stutter you've got there
<ddttmm> jcater: thanks
<Mr_You> I saw a big yellow spider today.
<Mr_You> i use stunnel for secure imap
<Mr_You> or pop3
<chillywilly> ok
<Mr_You> only downside is the certificate notice
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<Mr_You> bblm
Action: Mr_You &
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<derek> ddttmm: if you are still here i have seen the url you have given
<derek> the problem is its hard to work with people that have VASTLY different philosophy
<derek> i see them as opening a 'small' part of their business to get what they need
<derek> im not saying thats bad, its just generally hard to collaborate in that environment, but certainly if they were open GNUe is
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<ddttmm> derek: harr
<ddttmm> derek: so you're saying that gnue doesn't know these guys at all but is willing to approach them cautiously or in stages?
<ddttmm> s/harr/harro/
<ddttmm> Mr_You: a big yellow spider?  how chillingly bizzare
<ddttmm> i dont like any spiders, Sam I am.
<ddttmm> No I dont.
<ddttmm> Nosir.
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<ddttmm> they have their invisible, transparent place in the ecosystem.  far far away from me.
<ddttmm> Kinda like engine grease.
<jcater> sigh
Action: jcater shouldn't skim the logs
<jcater> as this is what I read
<jcater> <derek> ddttmm: if you are still here i have seen the url you have given
<jcater> <derek> the problem is its hard to work with people that have VASTLY different philosophy
<jcater> <ddttmm> they have their invisible, transparent place in the ecosystem.  far far away from me.
<jcater> <ddttmm> Kinda like engine grease.
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<ddttmm> jcater: yeah that's true  :)
<SachaS> hi everyone
<ddttmm> spiders and health management software are pretty nonsequitur ;)
<ddttmm> SachaS: hi
<jcater> ddttmm: unfortunately, it kind of flowed the way I read it
<jcater> :(
<ddttmm> heheh
<SachaS> does someone know a "xml transformation (XML2PDF etc) middleware"?
<jcater> SachaS: free?
<jcater> or just any in general?
<SachaS> any in general will do
<jcater> ReportLab
<jcater> as a RML (xml-based report markup)
<jcater> that converts to PDF
<ddttmm> SachaS: i'm no expert but the only such thing i've found is opencms.org and wyona.org.  they're open source java-based CMS and workflow management and publishing management software and they each have that framework to them.
<SachaS> thanks jcater will look it up
<SachaS> thanks ddttm
<SachaS> another student asked my about it. xml and xslt processer are too low level so she needs to find a middleware....
<derek> fwiw: i started a sapdb channel on freenode in hopes of getting some extra support
<derek> i have been very active in the postgresql channel of late
Action: derek is suprised that i can answer 85% of the questions
Action: derek thinks gnue made learn more about postgres than i bargained for
<ajmitch> hehe
<derek> though still have problem no one can answer my questions
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<ddttmm> SachaS: opencms is EJB oriented and wyona is servlet oriented
<ddttmm> derek: heheh cool
<ddttmm> derek: yeah you're too hard core for em.
<ddttmm> SachaS: i mean, opencms isn't written in EJB, but it's hard core that way
<ddttmm> so it might be too heavyweight for ya, i dunno
<ddttmm> but it's got object frameworks for what you seek
<ddttmm> derek: would you like to go voice right now about the short term roadmap of dcl?
<ddttmm> derek: i'm literally selling DCL to OST and Protectix.com tonight
<ddttmm> they now are committing to it and AxisGroupware
<ddttmm> derek: plus i'm writing up a roadmap for AxisGW
<derek> yummy
<derek> i dont like voice
<derek> in sense that i get interrupted at home too much (or my family gets ticked that i shut the door and yell at them to be quiet 
<ajmitch> the joy of family
<chillywilly> voice what?
Action: chillywilly is setting up imap :)
<ajmitch> yay
<SachaS> moving to school. see you later.
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<chillywilly> man I have tons of email
Action: chillywilly needs to write cron job to archive email now ;)
<ddttmm> derek: uhhhhh ok!
<ajmitch> chillywilly: how much?
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<chillywilly> I dunno but it makes imap slow when it has to read a LOT of headers
<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch pnet] du -h ~/Mail
<chillywilly> 143MB, yea I know you probably have a lot more
<ajmitch> 516K    /home/ajmitch/Mail/backup
<ajmitch> 1.2G    /home/ajmitch/Mail
<ajmitch> not much more
<chillywilly> HEH
<ajmitch> my debian-devel folder is ~130MB by itself
<chillywilly> do yuo read all of those lists?
<chillywilly> or just skim them
<ddttmm> uhhhhh  my guess is 'skim'
<ddttmm> :)
<ajmitch> skim
<ajmitch> at best
<chillywilly> heh
<ddttmm> he's got far too much priority on irc to be able to read all that!
<ajmitch> sigh
<ddttmm> grunt
<chillywilly> damn I'm hungry
<ddttmm> oh, did I type that?  i meant to actually _do_ it.
<ddttmm> grumble
<chillywilly> plus I have it working with an ssl connection ;P
<ddttmm> rm -f /tmp/.X11/X1
<chillywilly> I shouldn't bother to use imaps:// on the local machine here
<ddttmm> whoops did i say that?  i meant to execute it on my operating system.
<ajmitch> rm -rf ddttmm
<chillywilly> sorta pointless
<ddttmm> chillywilly: but then your mail would be secure from all the people who've broken into your LAN.
<chillywilly> yea, but ssl makes things slower
<ddttmm> how could you perceive it?
<chillywilly> it always is
<chillywilly> like scp takes damn near forever
<chillywilly> but pulling it from apahce takes no time at all
<ddttmm> chillywilly: try scp with blowfish
<chillywilly> what's the switch to turn that on?
--- Thu Sep 19 2002