ok grrr [00:01] Last message repeated 2 time(s). I keep getting write errors fsckin sheeit cos it's b0rken :) what is the matter, jcater? I think it doesn't like anymore than 410 files in a dir just cvs issues, that's all let me know what it will take for me to help with release before mid week next week as im doing big demo at community college next weekend and really would like to be demoing 0.4.0 and have it ready for release :) Action: jcater is really working on it I'm installing mysql (sigh!) at the moment to look at the issues w/that driver Action: jcater wants to do first round of prereleases tomorrow then hopefully one a day until release siesel did some gadfly drive changes, hopefully he'll be around sometime & commit one day it might work ;) Action: jcater is ready to get this release out the door as I need to do some major breakage to designer designer has grown all it can grow ah he did commit without moving to an event model like forms uses the current spaghetti mess is starting to get confusing ok Action: ajmitch will have to get onto packaging then what will be released? common, forms, reports, designer, navigator(?), appserver ok, so appserver is going out I think so it'll be at 0.0.2 i've setup a woody chroot so packages should be able to be built there as will reports common, forms, designer will be at 0.4.0 will this be the first release of navigator? i think so could have issues with not having a current wxpython debian package for sid huh? Action: jcater just upgraded 5 minutes ago and it seems to work sid? unstable? fsck scratch that Depends: python (>=2.1), python (<<2.2) -- default python is 2.2 in sid now sigh I distinctly remember reading on the debian lists a few weeks ago that they would *not* switch to 2.2 they were waiting for 2.3 wtf is up w/that? going for a short release cycle Action: ajmitch checks the debian-python list for details Action: jcater is very afraid of python 2.2 why? I've just had bad luck with it ok imho, python 2.2 changed enough stuff that it should've been 2.3 err 3.0 but that's just mho I mean, they changed the namespace rules, for crying out loud so stuff that worked under 2.[01] won't work under 2.2 s/stuff/some stuff (not all stuff obviously :) well, 2.2 is now default, so we'll have to live with the pain or switch back to slackware :) Action: ajmitch smacks jcater wash your mouth out! or freebsd Action: jcater does kinda miss freebsd :( in a nostalgic kind of way anyway, i'll attempt to roll some quick & messy debian packages r0x0r can we *please* get it into cvs this time, though and let nickr be pedantic on them yeah cool and then try & get someone to put them into sid jbailey or nickr can do that package names like gnue-forms, gnue-appserver ok? gnue-appserver should conflict & replace geas, i guess :) I'm pretty sure that's what we were wanting good gnue-common will be one package that suggests/recommands db driver dependencies yip thats what we want up front im cool with basic to get going evenutally i would like to see gnue-common gnue-common-mysql gnue-common-psycopg etc ;) so it knows to get those dependencies as well and would setup sample connections.conf file and the likes muahhahaha but baby steps now if you could only do gnue-common-oracle my life would be so much easier somehow I just don't see that happening ya know Oracle isn't doing so hot these days corporate-wise I think we should do like the Blender foundation and raise lots of dough and open up oracle :) gnue-common-oracle would have to fit into contrib :) LOTS of dough if every slashdot reader donated a mere $10,000 I bet we could manage what do y'all think? skim a little bit off for ourselves.... yeah, no worries! :) of course, SAP-DB is the next best thing but, still Oracle would sure be nice :) when will that get into debian? :) SAP-DB? better talk to jbailey about that hmm, jbailey is hellish busy he's doing the glibc 2.2->2.3 transition at the moment he's probably at home with his wife :) that sounds simple enough just untar it ./configure and make seems easy enough Action: jcater is glad jbailey isn't actually here to read that :) hehehe yeah Action: ajmitch wonders if jcater has upgraded gcc & glibc like that on his system ajmitch: sure! she makes a great doorstop too hehe sid is also switching to gcc 3.2 for default compiler should make it fun man and they are trying to get shorter release cycles, eh? glibc 2.3 requires gcc 3.2 to build :) Action: jcater will be afraid of sarge, then :) oh, gcc 3.2 has been in sid for awhile Action: jcater didn't even realize the gcc team was at 3.2 i've built gnome & kde with it that's cool, though as I think gcc 3.something was supposed to really help KDE application's startup times yeah now 3.2 should be following the standard C++ ABI & have no more breakages what ticks me off is what i love about debian they killing i loved that stable was REALLY stable old but STABLE woody isn't? and testing was more stable than everyone elses stable and sid was hit and mis so many people whined and pissed and moaned at how long it took to get woody out new debian leader wants to play catchup like redhat/mandrake Action: jcater whined, but did not piss uh, keep your woody put away please ;) and try to release new stables all the time well.. ideally the faster releases won't mean less stability. and incorporate things OTHER than security fixes and such into stable it'll still take awhile, don't worry ;) Mr_You: i think it does in regards to freebsd it doesn't i think faster than potato -> woody is a good thing they make several . releases a year. i think redhat like release cycles are a joke where did you hear that non-bugfixes will get into stable? anything more than a release a year is bogus mandrake's is insane redhat has commercial reasons for early releases. in something like debian its SO huge they've had like an RC a fortnight it takes a year to test it right :) users want new software.. seriously in a way, I really like OpenBSD's release schedule in a way, I hate it so mitch and match developers want a stable platform to build on new software doesn't mean less stability.. unless yer on an arbitrary time line like commercial software usually is they release every 6 months on the dot period the new version of apt allow this nicely arbitrary in the sense that sales and marketing makes the determination come June, it's time for a release so if some new app comes out you can grab it from testing or sid so they wrap whatever they have up and not WAIT same thing in December works great for sysadmins to plan their upgrades :) but for things like apache, gcc, etc etc etc derek: it's fine so long as they're not too far apart you need not be forced into moderately tested stuff i.e. the thought of using apache2 is still well scary to me well also..freebsd releases are core OS releases.. so bugs in add-on software shouldn't be blamed on an OS release IMO which makes things more complicated and dependent. Mr_You: that was one idea for debian - have separate core & modular releases but say the newest fangled version of gaim or sword or such i will gladly gamble on ajmitch: that is what i would like to see yeah, I kind of like the modular idea that versioning go by core OS? er no ? and 'software' can be moved up at anytime as its 'separate' but anyhow i wont piss and whine much unless things get ugly heh, 'much' the releases of . versions of debian are pretty good now tho.. better than the past. I guess they call them revisions. like 2.2r5? go mutt go! yeah ok, must go, bbl :) derek: why would you be forced to run apache2? why are aj and jcater forced to run python2.2 :) its not matter of forced to, its matter of defaults :) defaults per tasksel selection? apache2 rides that fine line.. if you just want a webserver, run it.. if you want webserver+modules *now*, you'd need v1 once php and mod_perl move to apache2 I'll move to it. Action: ajmitch waits around idly apache modules are the only thing holding apache2 from full deployment last I heard. I dunno then there's people like me "it works as is" "why should I bother with the headache" Action: jcater has 0 complaints with 1.3 that is my point but the argument is about defaults. m$ culture has trained people to upgrade cause there is something to upgrade to I dunno I want to upgrade to Apache2 because of WebDav, etc. I think it predates MS back to Support Contracts imho the mandrake/redhat releases are a my version number is bigger than yours ploy derek: I will agree with that just look at slackware jcater:yeah just m$ mastered the 3 year death march with the 8.0 release psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. i.e. stop supporting products mininum of 3 years they skipped like 4 or 5 release numbers hi psu yer forgeting the big jump.. Solaris 2.6 to 7 ;-) that is the 'scheduled' life cycle hi aj just because newbies thought slackware was outdated as it was 3.x i upgrade to get the new toys to play with and redhat was 6.x or 7.x i don't run a production box Mr_You: solaris is weird as it is SunOS 2.7 solaris rocks but Solaris 7 except for some stuff which i don't touch (compiled from source) no. SunOS 5.7 are you sure? I have Solaris 8 at work umm.. its my job, yes. ;-) and it boots up as SunOS 2.8 lemme tryto recall umm maybe I'm on crack no way Action: jcater only boots it up twice a year people still say 2.7 and 2.8 even tho there is no such thing so maybe I'm not remembering correctly maybe it does boot up as 5.8 but that's still odd is it solaris 8 or sunos 5.8 :) windows wins 3.1 to 95 to 2000 true dat lemme try to recall.. SunOS is the operating environment and Solaris is the operating platform.. something like that.. thats how they seperate.. ie.. SunOS = Core.. Solaris = Core+CDE+libs, etc.. ah in that case Solaris 8 = SunOS 5.8 I wish they'd take the Solaris 8 part out as CDE sucks :) heh I wish I could recall the exact wording, but thats the jist of it. Solaris is pretty cool maybe one day solaris will have gnome as default deaktop desktop it's just not free it is supposed to (yet) yeah, suppose to I believe. well sun have a number of hackers on gnome whooaa..what if solaris licensed aqua heh hmmm no seriously, solaris is supposed to soon ship with gnome as its default desktop (iirc) GNOME should be fun tho.. they have a bit much invested in gnome for it to just be a good-will gesture :) derek:yup they already have their release of it if solaris licensed aqua, then we'd have, um, Sun-brewed ice tea? Action: ajmitch is running gnome 2.0.2 at the moment I feel sad when I'm absent from a Sun box for so long :-( jcater: haha cool Action: Mr_You is running windowmaker w/ KDE apps. and rxvt. my solaris box only runs Oracle nothing more nothing less and it will be a RedHat box come christmas for some reason my KDE and GNOME windowmanagers got hosed.. really not pleasant experience. jcater: it runs solaris x86? Mr_You: yeah, I haven't been lucky enough to have the budget for Sun hardware :( i use fluxbox now derek: we're using fluxbox on the cash registers :) jcater: you want good sun hardware cheap? i can hook you up Action: Mr_You did nothing to hose KDE/GNOME :-( Solaris is good if you wanna run Oracle with quad procs. Mr_You: at least used to be or greater. Oracle has officially dropped Solaris/x86 support really? jcater: not Solaris x86 :-P heh wow yeah Sun has dropped x86 support. that pisses me off IIRC i see as we were a SCO shop then Oracle dropped support for SCO so I called up my Oracle rep and point-blank asked what do you guys recommend? i don't think i'd be likely to be dealing with that sort of hardware they said "well, we develop on Solaris... so that'd be a good bet" 6 months later guess what they announce :) no job for me today cause they were SCO shop :-( i'm probably likely to be using solely GNU/Linux :) now Llinux is their preferred *nix/x86 platform so RedHat it is in my next upgrade cycle understandable RH seem to have a few systems hackers I'd like to run GNU/Linux within a FreeBSD jail ;-) like the ex-cygnus gcc people it would do it to if full /proc support was done. and glibc maintainer drepper, ala cox alan Action: jcater wishes Oracle would officially support debian :) Mr_You: that'd be interesting but that won't happen ajmitch: one day. freebsd linux compatilbity is faster than linux.. atleast it use to be.. this is no joke heh lots of variables, but you could definitely see/feel the difference. some better subsystems, perhaps? i don't know how the VM & disk systems compare at the moment I dunno.. just execution was faster for an X app. ok it's a pity that GNU/Hurd has so few developers maybe I'll add that to my list.. add more linux /proc support to linuxcompat. maybe THAT will be the one money maker for me hahah hehe i remember hurd developers talking about /proc support - they'd have some fake textfiles for things like cpuinfo :) Action: jcater wishes the GNU/Hurd folks would move on over to GNU/BSD as I'd much rather see that :) why bother with yet another UNIX? I've realized GNU/BSD is a solution with no problem ;-) one of the Hurd's reason for existence is trying out new ideas that won't fit easily in a standard UNIX model IIRC, Linus's original usenet post said something like "Of course, this little project of mine after you've admining 5 different unix OSs you don't care heh. "will be obsolete in a few months when Hurd is released."... heh the hurd is still saddled with mach and mach is not pretty for a microkernel :) explains partly why mac os x sucks for some things the Hurd has awesome design principles but they should've never waited for Mach t be Free Software Mach blows anyway yes, that's just what i said except i said it a little nicer :) L4 will be interesting but I say.. if I only mae $0.50/day on Free Software and I'm still happy SO BE IT! all drivers in userspace Action: chillywilly is tired and has no time to smooth talk something that has held a project back for *years* Action: Mr_You moves to foreign country and lives on SS. hehe so long as GNUe tools run ok, i'll be happy :) ajmitch: sigh you are in for a rocky life hehe :) http://www.linuxfund.org/ <-- what happened to shadow conflict? :) i was wondering same thing Action: derek is away: sleep night derek reinhard (~rm@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Diablo-D3 has asked that Shadow Conflict be removed from the LinuxFund.org project queue. For more information on the project, visit shadowconflict.com. ah, he suspended development for now hey reinhard link from userblogs night Action: Mr_You & night Mr_You gotta work on my perl client. Action: Mr_You & hey, cool he has my name mentioned in his logs :) uh? http://www.linuxfund.org/node.php?id=112 Action: jcater submitted several bug reports to him ooooooh heh bbl y'all JohannesV (~jve@M691P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jcater@cpe-024-165-223-104.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "nite" good morning all hi SachaS (~sacha@online.havanawave.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection sacha (~sacha@online.havanawave.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: sacha -> SachaS Action: psu needs to update the contributors page most obvious omission is siesel http://www.gnuenterprise.org/community/contrib.php but arturas, ariel, StyXman are missing too I actually live in menomonee falls