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<ddttmm> http://freestateproject.org -- "The Free State Project is a plan in which 20,000 or more liberty-oriented people will move to a single state of the U.S. to secure there a free society. We will accomplish this by first reforming state law, opting out of federal mandates, and finally negotiating directly with the federal government for appropriate political autonomy."
<ddttmm> wow
Action: psu is away: zzz
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<ddttmm> hi all
<ajmitch> hello
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<Arturas> Hello
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<kuno> hi
<kuno> i read in gnue kernel cousin that gnue was on wopn. which file out of the wopn-archive should i get to listen to it?
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<chillywilly> the convo in #hurd is amusing ;)
<psu> heh
<psu> website has been updated so that the downloads file listings 
<chillywilly> they are debating communism
<psu> don't show the category headers
<psu> if there's nothing in that category
<chillywilly> as if some econmonic theory will somehow make society better
<psu> i.e. no more "where are the .deb pre-releases?" questions
Action: chillywilly rips apt-proxy out
<jcater> psu: r0x0r
Action: chillywilly thinks the only way sciety gets better is if they turn to God and do as Jesus asks us to do...to be stewards to all that he has created :)
<chillywilly> well I'm off to go help my significant other's dad
<chillywilly> take care guys
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<psu> \away more shopping
<Arturas> bye
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<derek> psu: when you return screenshots dont work right on the tools/packages pages they show status instead of screenshots
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/designer.php for example
<derek> i will file bug later 
<psu> hmm
<psu> actually, the one you checked is the only one that's b0rked
<psu> Are you related to my old boss, by any chance?
<psu> Now fixed
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Action: Mr_You agrees with chilly.
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<Mr_You> drove a friends new Lexus IS300 last night.. fun car.
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<robewald_> hi
<psu> hi robewald_
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<psu> hi asdfasdf
<derek> someone posted this in postgresql channel and i thought it worthy
<derek> http://www.worth1000.com/posts/image/18258.jpg
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by derek!~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net: On your mark.  Get Ready. Set. Go!!!! Test those preleases... http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/prereleases.php
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<DanielD> which python version must be supported?
<psu> hii DanielD
<psu> 2.0 and above, I believe
<psu> for most stuff
<psu> ISTR Windows 32 users had some problems w/anything less than 2.2
<psu> but freedom-luvving GNU/Linux ppl should be ok with 2.0 or 2.1
<DanielD> It's more about which Python features can be used and which shouldn't
<psu> Not sure what you mean
<psu> Do you mean
<psu> when writing triggers, or what?
<DanielD> I'm fixing the SAP DB driver and want to know if I should use the latest and greatest Python features or if I should code for an older Python version
<DanielD> So its about the gnue source code
<derek> we to date have been compatiable to 2.x and above
<derek> we are finding 2.2 is has some significant changes
<derek> though i dont think we are at the point yet where we are going to say 2.2 and up
<derek> the windows release will be based on 2.2 (re: psu's comment)
<DanielD> No problem, I'm coding mostly to 1.5.2 anyway unless I force myself
<derek> as that is what version pyscopg (the only respectable windows driver we could find)
<derek> you definitely dont have to be 1.5.2 compatiable :)
<psu> anyway, bedtime for me
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<derek> bed time
Action: derek suspects all the football matches wore him out
Action: jcater wants one of those keyboards
Action: derek is away: playing softball
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<ajmitch> hi all
<ddttmm> ajmitch: hi, you
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<ajmitch> wb esands
<chillywilly> anyone know offhand how to generate an ssl certificate ;)
<chillywilly> wtf
<chillywilly> execting openssl from the command line just spits ot Illegal Instruction :-/
<chillywilly> heheh, new openssl package available
Action: chillywilly hits the debian unstable crack pipe
<ddttmm> chillywilly: it's really easy using redhat's RPM so i could post its script
<ddttmm> i mean, it's automatic
<ddttmm> works out of the box
<ajmitch> ugh, article on apache & plan9
<ddttmm> ajmitch: yeah doesn't that sound like a random combo and for an especially random applicatin? :)
<ddttmm> is plan9 open src
<chillywilly> ddttmm: debian packages also generate the certificate for you
<ajmitch> no!
<ddttmm> chillywilly: excellent.  i surmised as much.
<chillywilly> I didn't think to look in there ;)
<ajmitch> both OSI & FSF don
<ddttmm> ajmitch: well then whoop-de-doo  :)  i wonder why they did it.
<ajmitch> don't approve the license
<ddttmm> hehe
<ddttmm> ajmitch: can you even get the src?
<ddttmm> for plan9 itself
<ajmitch> you can
<ajmitch> you can get MS source as well
<chillywilly> only thert program that is b0rked is gabber
<chillywilly> which I just added to a previous bug report about the package
<chillywilly> er, other
<ajmitch> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/plan-nine.html
<chillywilly> bitched about protocol family when I try to connect t my server
<chillywilly> I just updated cvs for jabberd though
<chillywilly> hmmm, wonder if that has anything to do with it ;P
<ajmitch> maybe they could use the Hurd instead of plan9 :)
<chillywilly> anyone have a wrking jabber client?
<chillywilly> try to connect to frell.dyndns.org
<chillywilly> er, working
<ddttmm> ajmitch: it's awesome that they write up all those summareis.
<ddttmm> summaries.
<chillywilly> standard jabber port (5222)
<ddttmm> full reports, full license, plus a human comprehensible summary
<ajmitch> yeah, makes it a lot easier for us non-lawyers
<chillywilly> gnu.org rawks for the legal BS
Action: chillywilly tries everybuddy
<chillywilly> ajmitch: what's your jabber id?
<ajmitch> ajmitch@jabber.org, same as it's always been
<chillywilly> k
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<BullWeivel> good evening...
<BullWeivel> how is everyone ?
<ajmitch> hi
<BullWeivel> hrmm...  so right now as it stands with gnue.   there is no CRM  ?
<ddttmm> BullWeivel: CRM is brewing beginning in the form of DCL
<ddttmm> it's due in the "short term", asap
<BullWeivel> ahh okay.
<BullWeivel> was curious... i have 2 large projects within the next 2 months that require CRM, inventory, quickbooks type stuff also.  and a fax server...   planning on trying to use the same thing on both of them.  and one of them i was thinking of integrating a POS (Point of sale) into the system also.
<ajmitch> got to talk to jcater about POS
<BullWeivel> hrmm.....im going to take a peek at all this.  realy hoping i can use gnue for this...looks very promising project!
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<ajmitch> hi jeff
<ajmitch> jbailey: i've got a rather awful gnue-common package done, and have rebuilt wxpython against python 2.2 :)
<jbailey> Ah nice.
<jbailey> Need it uploaded?
<ajmitch> which?
<ajmitch> gnue-common is not fit for uploading
<jbailey> gnue-common
<jbailey> Okay.
<jbailey> Does it work though?
<ajmitch> i did something that works
<ajmitch> well, the files are installed
<ajmitch> i can't tell if it works ;)
<jbailey> That's further then I've gotten.
<jbailey> God I hate distutils
<ajmitch> it's awful
<ajmitch> i changed the install paths in setup.cfg.in
<ajmitch> looked like the easier way to do it
<ajmitch> i'm also not sure where to install stuff
<jbailey> http://www.gnu.org/manual/automake/html_chapter/automake_11.html#SEC59 described how automake and python work together, for any who might want to be convinced to Come Back To The Light Side Of The Force.
<ajmitch> ok
<jbailey> I'm also willing to put some effort into that. =)
<ajmitch> it would be nice :)
<ajmitch> how will it go for windows packagine?
<jbailey> Sure.  All that needs to happen is you and cw need to convince jcater and hmm.  I can't remember who else.
<ajmitch> derek
<jbailey> Derek says he doesn't care as long as it does everything distutils does.
<ajmitch> and jamest
<ajmitch> ok
<jbailey> jamest, that's the other one.
<jbailey> Sorry, quite tired.
<ajmitch> i guess it's distutils for this release tho
<jbailey> IIRC, he's willing yo require cygwin for developpers, not for end users.
<ajmitch> which means having to package distutils-based forms & reports & designer & navigator & appserver :)
<jbailey> Which is no problem, since end users should be using some distro.
<ajmitch> yeah
<jbailey> I had suggested a windows based installer that should work fine.
<ajmitch> which one?
<ajmitch> they've been using mcmillan & inno
<jbailey> I can't remember.
<jbailey> Sometihng I found on sourceforge.  I don't really care. =)
<jbailey> As long as it works. =)
<ajmitch> heh ok :)
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<jcater> my problem with automake is that it's *nix-specific
<jcater> which we are not
<jcater> that's a serious issue
<jbailey> Well, it's posix specific.
<jbailey> But effectively the same thing.
<jbailey> It requires a bourne shell.
<jcater> fwiw, I truly hate distutils as well
<jcater> but it's cross-platform
<jcater> jamest and I wanted to go w/custom installation program
<jcater> as that's what this is
<jbailey> Derek had mentioned before that he didn't mind requiring *developpers* to have cygwin, so long as we didn't require the *end users* to have cygwin.
<jcater> an installation program
<jcater> but, see, we use distutils as an installation program
<jcater> not a developer's tool
<jcater> for developers
<jcater> we use a custom solution
<jcater> (our setup-cvs.py script)
Action: jcater doesn't really like any of our options
<jcater> :(
<jbailey> I think the best option is to use an install shield like program for Windows users.
<jcater> that's not very feasible
<jcater> at least at this point in time
<jbailey> What blocks that?
<jcater> well, we currently use a system like that
<jcater> and it works for users to demo our software
<jcater> but
<jcater> the users have to install the old fashioned way
<jcater> if they use anything other than postgres / mysql
<jcater> as our python packaging program won't let us add proprietary drivers
<jbailey> *lol*
<jcater> well, it will
<jcater> but we would be in license violation :)
<jcater> even then
<jcater> if we made it work that way
<jcater> we are maintaining several installer programs
<jcater> :'(
<jbailey> You are in any instance:
<jbailey> Debian, REdHat, Windows.
<jbailey> In none of those cases should the user need to do anything other than install the compiled python files through some non-shell method.
<jbailey> Thet trick is what builds those methods.
<jbailey> distutils/automake or whatever should be the tool that gets invoked in the creation of the installer, either through generating spec files, debian subdirs, or whatever type of script is required for the windows installer.
<jcater> that sounds great coming from a linux-centric background
<ajmitch> in debian a suggested method for installing bytecode is to have the postinst script compile it
<jcater> it just seems soo out of place
<jcater> to be using automake
<jcater> for stuff that isn't being compiled
<jcater> you would be using automake no differently than any of these other methods either
<jcater> plus the pains of maintaining an automake system
Action: jcater shudders
<ajmitch> it's good fun ;)
<jbailey> jcater: Why is that linux centred?
<derek> fwiw: what i said
<derek> was
<derek> i dont mind if DEBIAN/RPM packaging requires make
<derek> i didnt say making make a mandatory item for developers was ok
<derek> just rather developers of deb/rpm etc packaging
<jcater> derek: I would agree with that
<ajmitch> jbailey: they're making it difficult for us, aren't they? ;)
<jbailey> ajmitch: Well, it sounds at the least like we'd be permitted to build the automake setup and use it for packaging.
<jbailey> ajmitch: It seems silly to compile the .py's in the postinst, since then the .deb would be larger than it needs to be.
<jbailey> ajmitch: The make install target of automake compiles them.  Use debhelper to pull it in already compiled...
<jbailey> jcater: On Unix systems, distutils doesn't have a useful way of doing `./configure --sysconfdir=/etc --prefix=/usr --mandir=/usr/share/man --infodir=/usr/share/info
<jbailey> jcater: It seems to really want sed magic in order to accomplish that. =(
<jbailey> And also it seemed to be quite hard to get the equivalent of make install DESTDIR=`pwd`/debian/tmp for a staged install.
<jbailey> So it's terribly difficult to package. =(
<ajmitch> jbailey: compiling bytecode in postinst means you don't include the .py[co] files in the deb
<ajmitch> if you use make install to compile bytecode, then it has to be included in the deb
Action: ajmitch got this from python policy
<jbailey> Hmm.
<ajmitch>  python2.2 setup.py install --root $(CURDIR)/debian/gnue-common
<ajmitch> that what you mean?
<jbailey> I thought that changed any internal directory pointers doing it that way.
<ajmitch> it probably does
<jbailey> The same as why you want to use DESTDIR instead of prefix when installing automake/libtool packages.
<ajmitch> but that's how other python packages do it
<ajmitch> right
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<dneighbo> im on wireless so dont expect long connections
<ajmitch> heh
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--- Sun Sep 22 2002