rdean (~rdean@chcgil2-ar2-4-64-101-208.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Action: derek is back (gone 04:06:08) oh boy slashdot has a project management discussion hello all aloha ajmitch: pretend i'm saluting you in all channels hello ddttmm! johannes (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. johannes (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). psu (~psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. good moooooooooooooooorning gnuenterprise.... hmm, looks like there's some serious problems with the bitkeeper license can't use bitkeeper if you *or your organisation* are working on a competing product which includes subversions, CVS, etc. psu! psu! you been readin the debian-devel-announce list? so this means no Debian hackers are allowed to work on the Linux kernel any more mad it to /. as well ah i wonder how twisted the story is now the 'no Debian hackers able to work on Linux' is a bit of an extreme extrapolation but that's slashdot for ya ;) that was discussed on the d-d mailing list tho Action: psu wonders what Linus' view is ninja (~rossg@rossg.dial.nildram.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. he probably doesn't care Action: psu wonders if this will finally spur GNU/Hurd on a bit more i doubt it :) people will still not want to work on that ajmitch: true. I guess if a significant number of people feel they can;t submit patches any more (the most extreme poss. result) that just means less patches for him to wade thru' ;-) yes But I guess it's a useful object lesson for us when people say "Why are you so fussy about Java?" etc etc *Working* with non-free tools is fine, and is a good form of spreading the word ("BTW, if you like this d/b development tool, there's a whole OS that's free as well...") *Depending* on anything non-free is always a risk certainly oh i don't see why people think we should use java :) And although it sounds Stalinist to say that any non-free depends "taint" a project it's just evil :) this is a practical example of what we mean yep bbl - switching computers psu (~psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. Stalinist? wtf I jst love "communist" references i think he was referring to the dictatorial & unyielding tone that decrees on non-free software can seem like :) non-free software is a social disease ;) Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-246-173.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" johannes_ (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. johannes_ (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Client Quit johannes_ (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. exit johannes_ (~jv@M702P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" Maniac (~User@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port20.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) got netsplit. nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) got netsplit. ninja (~rossg@rossg.dial.nildram.co.uk) got netsplit. asdfasdf (~asdfasdf@adsl-66.218.46.51.dslextreme.com) got netsplit. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-100.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) got netsplit. Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) got netsplit. ninja (~rossg@rossg.dial.nildram.co.uk) returned to #gnuenterprise. asdfasdf (~asdfasdf@adsl-66.218.46.51.dslextreme.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-100.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. Maniac (~User@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port20.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (~car@gso88-217-049.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. nickr (~panphage@e-64-35-146-236.empnet.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ninja (~rossg@rossg.dial.nildram.co.uk) left irc: Remote closed the connection maint. release for windows coming out anytime soon? sure if someone fixes it Action: jcater doesn't have win machines to see the problems :( it doesn't start.. if you guys need a tester let me know.. designer and navigator don't start up. Action: jcater imagines thats just the installer, not the actual 0.4.0 release want to talk to seisel about the webclient.. I think most of it is going to be written in javascript.. but Idon't think Javascript license is GPL compatible. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. I guess Javascript license is lumped in with mozilla license. sup well yea the JS implementation would be with the browser code which is dual license with GPL being one option now right? ;) well that sounds good damn skippy I'm leaning toward this: any web-based forms/reports/navigator client needs to be completely written in javascript.. with xmlrpc and http/cgi backend connectivity. I think seisel has begun this, but he said the cgi would still lay out the form, but it would be more portable if javascript did it. hmmm, well it wold be more dynamic would* well yeah.. to get any sort of persistent-like activity requires javascript/dhtml/iforms but if possible it makes sense to build in xmlrpc (being done already).. and you might as well buildin form layout. then for 2-tier connectivity it would require a simple cgi engine. cgi<->db engine. what's iforms? I heard of xforms but not iforms some javascript functionality that I looked into a little bit.. for creating dynamic forms. that way, all you gotta do is dump the javascript code onto a web page, and you have a forms client. if everything were xmlrpc. and it seems some people have tied javascript to connect to databases which is interesting, but seems risky. M$ has created libraries for this. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You: afaik, the way to look at javascript from a free s/w perspective is Javascript == name owned by Netscape Jscript == M$ embrace & extend version in MSIE ECMAScript == politically neutral name that encompasses both the above and meets ECMA standard ISO-16262 nod So I guess that way to phrase it is that a GNUe web client should use a sub-set of EMEAscript that is usable on both Javascript and JScript ;-) or use PSP and Ecma for the gui ECMA too less code to write as you can invoke gnue common Action: psu thinks the route to sucessful non-python Forms clients is to seek to use GNUe Common but since I have no intention of doing this myself, don;t feel like you have to take any notice <%@page imports="gnue:common" %> just that, the way GNUe is now structured, being able to use common asumming it's a good idea to take a non-python browser-hosted route in the first palce :) er gives you so much bang for your buck man <%@ page imports="gnue:common" %> that was riddled with typos or some such thing Action: chillywilly spreads the typo mojo to jcater ;) hehhe fwiw, I think people want web (as in web browser) interfaces to gnue...however I am not one of them :) I don't disagree but I still stand by my original premise wrt a GNUe web browser GNUe is SO state-based it will require a persistent backend which, translated to me, a standalone web server (which could of course be proxied via apache or whatever) psp is secksy http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/HTMLClient.txt are my personal notes oooooh I have actually started a medusa client medusa is cool (which is a basic python-based persistent web server library) s/basic/ gnue-common is python specific and? ;) Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-247-81.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. psu mentioned using gnue-common for non-python web forms. without using common for some things you end up implementing a lot more I don't see how you can do a persistent web client without ECMAscript. and talking via arms length rpc persistent on the backend not the front end python servlet? well, actually, there are browser-based python extensions just like JS jcater: I only see XMLRPC for thatwith ECMAscript, which seisel has started. but that's not what I was referring to where? Action: jcater goes googling chilly and I were just wondering about python-plugin I swear I've seen it that would kick some butt I still think writing majority of the client in ECMAscript would be best. then use PSP, ASP, C, Perl, PHP, or whatever for 2-tier backend connectivity. man machinae spremacy kicks a** supremacy* without a persistent backend, that'll be a bitch as you'll have to load/reload forms and data sets then you end up implementing a lot of common functionality thats what JS is for. gnue common that is well, y'all can try to do whatever you'd like w/EMCAscript and browsers it just makes me naucious (sp?) I wish you guys luck :) its mainly just db routines, AFAIK. what? common? wopn rawks common is more than just the db for the web-server backend code. it is basically our framework I'm talking about for a web-server backend code. xml parsers, db, rpc, config file parsing, Gobj tree, triggers, etc. well xml, rpc, would be in JS backend web-server just talks to the database and does I/O base classes for implementing client and server programs too debuggin classes db connection handler class date/time class theres no way you could use gnue-common with JS, AFAIK heh psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("nite..."). jcater: don't you mena "cracker" in that file there ;) mean Action: jcater wrote that a good year ago man I never liked JS so much. hmm cuervo: I know javascript can get data from the server and fill in the entry boxes, etc.. but can it redraw/relocate the entry form/pull downs after downloading a "form definition file" from a server? oops ninja (~rossg@rossg.dial.nildram.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. wonder if thats beyond JS capabilities maybe not. yo should be able to redraw dynamically hmm formObj.innerHTML siesel (jan@dial-213-168-92-3.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. jan! you code monkey you ;) Hi chillywilly, hi to all the other great gnue developers and users how are you doing? fine, watching "Forest Gump" at the moment cool :) anyone see LOTR: FOTR yet? s/yet// Forest Gump is a classic man ;) LOTR: FOTR is the second part of LOTR? no the first Fellowship of the Ring then Two Towers then Return of the King iircd s/d// Action: chillywilly is only on chapter 8 of the book though er 9 now of FOTR the movie skipped a lot of stuff in the beginning ans left out some parts which is to be expected I suppose Action: chillywilly hack on gnu common c++ hacks* reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. hey reinhard hello chillywilly I was gonna ask is you saw the LOTR movie? last time you were around sure did you like it? yes very much they cut a lot of things out though possible Action: chillywilly is finally now reading the book ans it up to chapter 9 they skipped a lot of things in beginning didn't recognize that as it has been 12 years since i read the book yea the XMLRPC library is working on both IE and mozilla. they cut out the fect that Frodo waits a while before he levaes the Shire and moves to Crickhollow thats great siesel then he leaves thinkn that Merry and Pipin don't know about his plans to levae right away and start his quest siesel: you talking about gnue in this channel i don't think that conforms to the rules ;) they cut out the part about the forest and when they get caught in the willow tree siesel: will it be in cvsanytime soon? ;-) and when they meet Tom Bombadil offtopic: in case anybody didn't notice yesterday oh and the scene about farmer Maggot is all wrong ;) i have the _urgent_ need to run a COFF binary under woody didn't gnu/linux used to support COFF? and appreciate any hint that doesn't end in "... patch the kernel" chillywilly: yes there was a module named ibcs reinhard: you may need to try .... err never mind reinhard: why can't you recompile the kernel? which is defuntct in 2.4 kernels is COFF icbs? ibcs wtf is icbs? er, ibcs whatever intel binary compatibilty standard oh or something close to that mmhmmm jcater: i know you dealt with sco, too Mr_You: I'm not shure where to put it. yeah I had to use ibcs/linux-abi to get it working though have any experience with sco binaries under woody with 2.4 kernel? which required a patched kernel what are the ibcs packages? damn reinhard: well, that machine has been in production use since last march reinhard: what's wrong with rolling a kernel? it's used by every employee no problems at all Mr_You: they only work with 2.0 and 2.2 kernels jcater: that's ok http://linux-abi.sourceforge.net/ is the 2.4 kernel patches now i finally start to believe that i have to patch the kernel too ahh.. its REAL easy to create a custom compiled kernel package make-kpkg one sec two reasons why i don't like to patch the kernel reinhard: it killed me to have to patch as well :( make-pkg --revision=0.1 --??? kernel_image a) i've never done it before and i should have it working tomorrow morning :( creating a custom kernel isn't really patching. reinhard: its super easy I could walk you through it. you'll need to know what drivers to select tho. not if you're running debian http://www.libertyetech.com/debian-kernel-mini-howto.txt b) it's a customer's machine and i don't want to have gcc and all that develpment stuff installed on it Mr_You: I'm not shure where to put it in cvs, as it didn't really belong to phpforms siesel: well I'd like to play with it some. you can take a stock kernel however download the source reinhard: you could build on another machine. copy the /boot/config-version-number to /usr/src/kernel-source .config reinhard: then just dpkg -i .deb reinhard: if yo have simialr hardware you cna just make a deb and dpkg -i it on there then just tweek it yip that's how i do my win4lin systems copy the new kernel package between systems hey thank you all just make sure the kernel config version matches the new kernel config requirements thank god this channel is logged however i delegated the job to johannes :) are you needing to run sco binaries? reinhard: http://www.libertyetech.com/debian-kernel-mini-howto.txt, crude instrctions there ;) or on the rev thing IIRC you have to do revision=custom.#.#.# hmm.. wonder if you could just build a module package.. never done that. reinhard: who's that? if you don't then every upgrade will try and install a base kernel over yours chillywilly: JohannesV i learned that the hard way reinhard: I still don't know who that is ;) chillywilly: it's a guy who works for me the thing to do is set the epcoh to 3 just a sec --revision=3:custom.x.x i try if he's still up '3:' is the epoch then it shouldn't be upgraded by apt somewhere I read that messing w/ epochs isn't quite std so I avoided it works for me i didn't say it didn't work, I just read some warning about doing it somewhere once, I don't recall the details on why well I suppose it is possible that some packager would se epoch '3', but I think it is highly unlikely s/se/use/ I got the epoch stuff out of the make-kpkg docs iirc the problem with XMLRPC is that you can just connect to the server where you loaded the file from siesel: hmmm? don't you connect to port 80? jcater: i need to run sco binaries because that f***ing prop software that i make my current living from is an sco binary cw, no to some other port (at the moment) reinhard: I was going to offer to send you my tarball of my custom Action: Mr_You predicts many SCO shops will move to Linux and potentially require ibcs but I just realized, I only added the network cards I needed to the kernel :( not all the standard ones Debian supports out of the box jcater / all: thanks a lot for all this info in any case this channel has once again proofed to be better than #debian :) :) johannes is probably trying the patch right now if we have problems it's good that i know that i can eventually ask here :) that's what community is about man :) oooo thanks again are we like the new M$ community? if so that'll be $49.95 an issue :P i don't think you can gat this kind of help for any windows problem uh, let's hope not ;) lol just what i was thinking :) did anyone have a chance to test my .debs of GNUe ?? yep, working great. thx a lot. coolness Action: jcater hopes to do the 0.0.x stuff later on derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: you made debs? coolnes s http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/prereleases/ if you wanna be a guinnea pig for me :) only common, forms, and designer at this point and I make no guarantees that its 100% Debian Policy :) but should be pretty darn close if not after I reboot. ok Action: chillywilly could give a rats ass about debian policy ;) jcater: so you did what others could not? ;) I cna build the deb from cvs right? the instructions are in gnue/*/packaging/debian you need to do it from a tarball, not from the cvs dir though ok but that's as easy as doing a ./setup.py sdist then the tar.gz file will be in dist/ alrighty cw: why do you ask? Don't you know jcater is the AI. yes, I know forgive me siesel ;) Wow, debian developers were busy this weekend : Need to get 86.5MB of archives. heheh sid? Action: chillywilly is unpacking gcc and it is taking forever Action: chillywilly rm -r's it and only unpacks the libstdc++ source Action: siesel had a bad dream: to port JPython to javascript :( hehe Action: chillywilly is finishing up thread-safe iostreams for gnu common c++ chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" hey xfree86 4.2 is in sid Action: siesel is allready downloading it :) night all reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "No problem is so interesting that you can't just walk away from it" does anyone nows how to "expand" out of a "narrow xxx" in Xemacs? xterm -e "vi" Action: siesel let UPS deliver a "emacs emulation mode (for vi)" to jcater morning all siesel: what do you mean narrow xxx ? I'm using html helper mode and activated "narrow to javascript". afterwards I could just see and edit the javascript code. Quite good. But I want to change back :) i still dont get what you mean by 'narrow to javascript' must be some vi terminology generally with emacs modes /minor or major/ they get loaded by file extension so if you edit a foo.js you get javascript mode edit a foo.php you get php mode etc I'm using HTML HELPER major mode. And after clicking on a "narrow to x" command, all HTML code get ?blended? out. Even if I change the mode it still remains invisible clicking on? what emacs are you using where you 'click' ;) i would ask in #emacs xemacs i never use html helper mode, but i know many others do xemacs != emacs ;) xemacs is worse than vi ;) ok maybe not that bad Action: siesel will ask on #xemacs (if that exists) thanks anyway ajmitch_ (~me@wlg1-port20.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port20.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) left irc: Killed (NickServ (Ghost: ajmitch_!~me@wlg1-port20.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz)) Nick change: ajmitch_ -> ajmitch night everybody :) siesel (jan@dial-213-168-92-3.netcologne.de) left irc: "What's a script?" SachaS (~Sacha@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: what are the chances that make-ssh-tunnel could be updated to get rid of This program makes three assumptions: 1) You have ssh installed on this machine and know how to log into another machine using ssh, and 2) You have a login on the machine you wish to tunnel to. 3) This remote machine allows SSH level 1 number 3 on this list? slim to none I have no idea how to do autologins on SSH 2 machines and the ppl I know who do, have had really bad luck w/it recently :( at first, I thought you were talking about all 3 assumptions that would've been funny :)