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<ajmitch> hey psu
<psu> hi
<psu> well, linux expor uk was interesting
<psu> smaller than I expected (40-50 stands) but still interesting
<psu> good mix of 
<ajmitch> GNUe stand?
<psu> a) the big boys (Sun, Oracle, IBM) come to explain their linux strategy
<psu> b) small to medium size IT firms based around GNU/Linux
<psu> c) the "dot-orgs"
<psu> ajmitch: not this year, maybe next
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> next year, when GNUe is taking the world by storm...
<psu> I got the organisers' details & will contact them once 
<psu> they re-awake from winter hibernation ;-)
<ajmitch> ok
<psu> My main purchase was the double-sided Debian DVD which I bought direct from the Debian stand
<ajmitch> ooh nice
<psu> along with a fetching Debian t-shirt
<ajmitch> wish i had a DVD drive :)
<ajmitch> i'll have the tshirt tho, want my postal address? ;)
<psu> T-shirt is extra large to fit me ;-)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> would be about right for me then :)
<psu> Having had to do at least 20 disc swaps to resolve all the circular depends 
<psu> when going potato -> woody,
<ajmitch> ouch
<psu> suddenly a single DVD install looks quite attractive
<psu> ;-)
<psu> Of course, it's worth remembering *why* Debian bitch-slaps you about depends in the first place
<psu> it really is for your own good
<ajmitch> yeah
<psu> but does make for a longer install
<ajmitch> i haven't used a cd since my first install :)
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<btami> morning
<psu> ajmitch: well, as a dial-up user, physical media of some sort is preferred
<psu> hi btami
<btami> hi psu
<ajmitch> psu: i'm not using much more than dialup
<psu> good work on the windows .exes ;-)
<btami> :)
<psu> also seen at linux expo : www.jalia.com
<psu> if you were trying to design something to be the ant-GNUe, 
<ajmitch> huh?
<psu> s/ant/anti-
<psu> this would be it 
<psu> a) non-free
<psu> b) Java
<ajmitch> ooh, eeeeevil
<psu> c) postgres only
Action: ajmitch grabs a bucket & throws up
<ajmitch> hey at least it's not mysql-only ;)
<psu> actually, I'm *assuming* it's non-free - website's not clear
<ajmitch> it is
<psu> but talks about an "evaluation version", which would be an oxymoron for free as in speech
<ajmitch> "You are allowed to make one copy of the Program for back-up purposes provided you clearly label the back-up copy. Any other copies of the Program, whether as a whole or in part, made without the prior written consent of Jalia, are unlawful and in breach of this Agreement;"
<ajmitch> click on the 'jalia license' button on the page :)
<psu> hmm
<psu> guess we'll have to keep working on acclite, then ;-)
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<jcater> this one's for chillywilly:
<jcater> re the philosophers in public university discussion
<jcater> *****************************************************************
<jcater> Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that 
<jcater> all other philosophers are jackasses.  He usually proves it, and 
<jcater> I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself.
<jcater>                                                  - H.L. Mencken
<jcater> *****************************************************************
<laurie> roflmao
<laurie> im gonna pee my self
<laurie> thats hilarious
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<siesel> hi
<siesel> jcater: the nstti driver doesn't work. Seems like an UIapp module/file is missing.
<jcater> I wouldn't mess w/that right now
<jcater> I have so much stuff outstanding
Action: jcater is working on it at the moment
<jcater>  http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/curses-intro.png
Action: siesel is just curious, but will wait till the next commit to do some testing :)
<jcater> it's no where near production ready :)
<jcater> although at the rate I'm going, it could be at the end of the day
Action: siesel would be happy to say that of the jsclient too :(
<jamest> jsclient?
<siesel> gnue forms written in javascript (i.e. mozilla)
<siesel> simple forms are working allready, but that just means a maximum of 10% of the work
<siesel> to do.
<siesel> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/jsclient/gnue-forms.html
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<nickr> man,
<nickr> dom is like 3000lb of death
<nickr> why is it so obfuscated?
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Action: nickr rants
<jamest> that makes it complex, which is l33t
<jcater> which is why you should use DOM instead of SAX
Action: jcater snickers
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<zoyd> hi.
<zoyd> does gnue-forms now do gtk2 natively, i.e. not through wxGTK ?
<jcater> we had a gtk2 driver given to us
<jcater> that has been put into cvs
<jcater> (it is native)
<jcater> I'm honestly not sure how feature complete it is
<jcater> compared to the wxgtk driver
<jcater> but I think it's pretty far along
<jcater> but I haven't had the opportunity to test it, so I can't say whether "far along" means "usable" or not
<zoyd> so i guess this is the first time something other than wx* has gone in for gui forms ?
<jcater> we almost have a curses version too
<jcater> but we do consider the "wx" to be the "reference" implementation right now
<jcater> simply because it gave us the most bang for the buck
<jcater> in the near future, we'd like to see a native QT version
<zoyd> hmm.
<jcater> and a native Win32 version
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<zoyd> another question about Reports. how does it work with dot matrix printers.
<zoyd> is it resourceful on the rybon ?
<jcater> well
<jcater> the reports package is not nearly far along as the forms package
<jcater> it's only at 0.0.2
<zoyd> or does it consume it like those win32 report programs.
<jcater> so it isn't spitting out reports for production use yet
<jcater> it would not consume as much
<jcater> as one of my requirements is that it talk to the printer natively
<jcater> i.e., send actual text
<jcater> not pictures of the pages
Action: jcater thinks the windows programs use truetype fonts, etc, then render graphics to send to the printers
<jcater> that has its place of course
<jcater> and you could do that if you wanted
<jcater> but that's just doing injustice to dot-matrix printers :)
<jamest> i would think it'd be as hard on the printer as you'd like
<jamest> as you could have your own output filter
<jamest> what little I've gotten into it i would think you could do dump text w/o too much issue
<zoyd> ok. I think fast printouts through something like GNUe is the key. that rhymed ;)
<zoyd> jamest: cool :)
<jamest> zoyd: reports is pretty cool
<jamest> thanks to jcater's mad coding skills he hacked a fax spammer filter up for me
<jamest> so we could send reports to various schools
<jamest> 1 year ago this required a student worker to hand fax 500 reports 
<jamest> i can't believe the poor s.o.b. didn't go mental on us :)
<zoyd> hehe
Action: zoyd searches for that page mentioning which parts are production level and which are not
<zoyd> I had tried GNUe about a year ago. It must've been changed quite a bit since, isn't it ?
<jamest> depends :)
<jamest> yes it's changed quite a bit
<jamest> but it's in spurts
<zoyd> so, is gnue used to create production systems already ?
<jamest> yes and no
<jamest> i use it here in production
<jamest> for small projects
<jamest> we've got interfaces to a few other pre-existing systems that make some things easier
<jamest> but there is no pure GNUe system
<nickr> I still like dom better than sax, but its annoying how appearently complex it is.
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<zoyd> thanks guys for answering my questions. i'll try the new release as soon as i find some time on my hand.
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<ratmice> hmm, anyone using appserver from windows? 
<jamest> not i
<jcater> nor i
<ratmice> i have appserver running on a linux box, trying to use it with windows forms seems to hang the windows forms client...
<ratmice> has something to do with the connections.cof
<ratmice> changing though it works directly talking to the database
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<siesel> ratmice: I've read in the log that you had problems to use appserver (on linux) from forms (on windows), right?
<siesel> which rpc adapter did you use?
<ratmice> xmlrpc
<siesel> the xmlrpc client should work on windows, although the pw_xmlrpc one is possibly a bit more stable
<siesel> you said that forms was hanging. Did it directly hangs or does it connected to appserver before?
<siesel> You could see that from the appservers output (gacvs/gnue-appserver -Z)
<ratmice> well, the gnue-forms executable launches and then exits
<ratmice> i don't even get the auth form
<siesel> ok, that seems to be a problem with the installation of xmlrpc on windows.
<siesel> did you use the installer version or the zip files?
<ratmice> installer
<siesel> possibly xmlrpc isn't included in the installer  version
<ratmice> thanks
<siesel> thank you :)
<siesel> jcater: you here?
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<crazymike> sup ya'll?
<crazymike> :)
<ajmitch> RUN!!
<crazymike> why do you say that?
Action: ajmitch whimpers & hides
<crazymike> why don't you like me ajmitch?
<crazymike> :(
<ajmitch> who said that?
<crazymike> you...
<crazymike> you always make fun of me and talk shit
<crazymike> it makes me sad
<ajmitch> i never do
<crazymike> man, I hate school
<ajmitch> what i say is pretty standard for this channel :)
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<ajmitch> especially when chillywilly is around ;)
<ajmitch> it's jcater!!
<crazymike> i am sitting in a shitty winblows class
<crazymike> i have to take it
<ajmitch> lucky you
<crazymike> and it is gay
<crazymike> windows 2000 administration
<ajmitch> umm WHY?
<crazymike> what a waste of time
<crazymike> it is required
<ajmitch> required for what?
<crazymike> isn't there only one way to administer it? re-install?
<crazymike> for my networking degree
<ajmitch> ah
<crazymike> so, whats new ajmitch 
<ajmitch> very little
<ajmitch> haven't even played with GNUe tools lately
<ajmitch> jcater: you been a busy boy lately!
<ddttmm> crazymike: but it's the most accessible OS for all the students!  *all* they need is a $1000 product license apiece, right?
<ddttmm> or is it down to more like $500 these days
<ddttmm> for the server stuff
<ddttmm> and then voila!  you've got a server *anyone* can understand!
<ajmitch> ddttmm: depends if it's a compulsory part of fees ;)
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<crazymike> lol
<crazymike> it is quality stuff man
<crazymike> :)
<ajmitch> students are getting reamed
<ddttmm> heheh oh yeah, "we've changed the class from Network Administration 101 to Windows Network Administration 101.  in a related note, we're raising the price of tuition from $30 to $1030."
<crazymike> my professor and I were arguing linux vs windows
<crazymike> lol
<ddttmm> crazymike: oh BOY
<crazymike> he was about to start yelling, he must be a windows fanatic
<ddttmm> hey in the college of architecture at KSU when i was at KSU, they had a mandatory purchase of a LAPTOP and AUTOCAD for everyone just for being enrolled
<crazymike> it was funny
<ddttmm> so that's like $8000+ on top of everything
<ajmitch> ouch
<crazymike> yeah, there are a few schools around here like that
<ddttmm> this was in like 1997, buying autocad-capable laptops.
<crazymike> not the autocad
<crazymike> but the laptops
<ajmitch> here we have to use redhat in the labs! the horror! :)
<crazymike> ajmitch: lol
<ddttmm> crazymike: yelling?!
<ddttmm> crazymike: seriously how much does the softwre cost
<ajmitch> and we have to pay the uni $5NZ for a cd if we want a copy!!
<crazymike> he wasn't actually yelling, but he was about to
<ddttmm> ajmitch: hehe
<ddttmm> crazymike: so you say "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG BYE!" and ran away?
<crazymike> pretty much
<ajmitch> or we can download it from a uni server & burn it if we have blanks :)
<ddttmm> oic
<ddttmm> ajmitch: leet
<crazymike> he was like "but if windows breaks at least you have a throat to choke"
<ajmitch> iirc one of the admins is setting up a local debian mirror as well
<crazymike> i was like "WHEN windows breaks"
<ajmitch> heh
<ddttmm> what the fuck?!
<ajmitch> the only thing you can do when windows breaks is take out your frustration
<ajmitch> soon if things break you'll have to pay MS for fixes ;)
<crazymike> pretty much
<ddttmm> what kind of psychopath admin would *want* to call someone else up when their software breaks?  as opposed to being able to fix it themselves?
<ddttmm> or to subcontract anyone to fix it
<crazymike> ddttmm: yeah thats what i was saying
<ddttmm> for what sick mind would that even be an option?
<ajmitch> someone who likes shifting blame!
<ddttmm> what does a sysadmin do, if not that?
<ddttmm> (fix it, not shift blame, i mean ;)
<ddttmm> tee hee
<crazymike> i was like "you can sit on the phone and wait for hours, or you can jump on IRC and get a fix in minutes" :)
<ddttmm> crazymike: well either that or rtfm or read the source or buy a support contract from the 283702709153205 linux companies
<ddttmm> crazymike: is he daft?
<ddttmm> or what
<ddttmm> is he teachable?  :)
<ajmitch> not many sysadmins would jump on IRC
<ddttmm> doesn't sound good
<crazymike> i think he is a part-time professor, and full-time at McDonalds
<jcater> ajmitch: yeah
<ddttmm> crazymike: hahahahaha
<jcater> been quite busy
<jcater> 0.5.0 is almost ready :)
<crazymike> ddttmm: he is a bit loopy
<ddttmm> i once had a substitute high school teacher who was 40+ yrs old, lived with his mom, and was a fulltime stockboy at Sears
<ddttmm> crazymike: great.
<crazymike> ddttmm: LOL
<ddttmm> crazymike: yeah they brought him in when the normal teacher got put in the hospital that morning or whatever ;>
<crazymike> my unix professor was great
<ddttmm> like when the principle can't step in
<ddttmm> or the school nurse ;)
<crazymike> ddttmm: they went to Sears and got him?
<ddttmm> crazymike: well just be sure and have well formed responses to your professor buddy
<ddttmm> crazymike: talk about open standards so you can pick the best tool for the job, and say that all software has paid support and contracts no matter what form the source code license comes in
<crazymike> it was just before class, he is up there making a fool of himself right now
<ajmitch> which means that slashdot is a bad resource for facts, ok?
<ddttmm> crazymike: flat out evangelism doesn't work on people lik ehtat
<crazymike> ajmitch: lol
<crazymike> oh, there is no evangelism from me
<ddttmm> ajmitch: if you filter it wrong, yes :)   you must have a bulletproof mental slashdot filter!
<crazymike> i could care less what he thinks
<ddttmm> crazymike: well even normal talk doesn't work usually
<ajmitch> ddttmm: slashdot sometimes has a rare gem or two
<ddttmm> crazymike: it's all about the TCO reports, the paid support, the open standards, and the low cost of R&D
<ddttmm> ajmitch: yes and depending on the topic, there may be all gems
<ajmitch> ddttmm is THE master at advocacy!
<ddttmm> i'd say half of slashdot is amazing
<ddttmm> i search it for everything
<ajmitch> ddttmm: fool's gold, perhaps ;)
<ddttmm> it's one of my top resources, but certainly far from the only one.  i go there for esoteric tribal knowledge basically.
<ddttmm> but that's only coz i know how to read it
<ddttmm> otherwise it would do far more harm than god
<ddttmm> good
<crazymike> i'll be back late
<crazymike> r
<crazymike> have fun guys
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<ajmitch> wecolme back
<crazymike> ajmitch: thanks
<crazymike> it is good to be back
<ajmitch> even if i cannot spell
<crazymike> i missed all of you guys dearly
<ajmitch> i'm sure
<crazymike> i did
<crazymike> :)
<ajmitch> planning to hack on GNUe today?
<crazymike> why yes I am
<crazymike> i would love nothing more
<ajmitch> cool
<ajmitch> appserver needs some work still
<crazymike> I'll take care of it
<crazymike> :)
<crazymike> yeah right, I don't know shit about programing
<ajmitch> it's not too hard to learn :)
<ajmitch> if you want to learn, i can show you some docs :)
<crazymike> i can't read
<crazymike> and that is a problem
<ajmitch> if you cannot read, how are you using irc?
<crazymike> i can read simple text
<crazymike> i can't read books and shit, even long paragraphs are hard for me
<crazymike> I think I have add
<crazymike> ADD
<ddttmm> hmmm
Action: ddttmm drills holes in crazymike's head to relieve the pressure
<ddttmm> there.
<crazymike> how is that going to help me?
Action: ajmitch thinks this is a good start: http://www.andamooka.org/reader.pl?section=thinkpython
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<ajmitch> hello
<putra-langit> hello
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<chillywilly> hmm, I missed crazymike
<chillywilly> oh well I have to be off
<chillywilly> no more rading the Lord of the Rings
<chillywilly> reading even
Action: chillywilly is almost done with FOTR
<chillywilly> bye
Action: chillywilly wonders if Gandalf is really dead
<chillywilly> l8r
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<dyfet> is derek around?
<ddttmm> derek has not spoken today afiak
<ddttmm> afaik
<dyfet> ah, i heard he was crushed when he heard the news...
<ddttmm> which news
<dyfet> The nobel committee passed him up again this year :)
<ddttmm> the news that a garbage truck had been dropped on him and was scheduled for impact in 3 seconds?
<ddttmm> oh
<dyfet> its okay, they passed me up too :)
<ddttmm> these crazy people and their priorities
<ddttmm> this says VOLUMES about the state of society
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<jcater> anyone here played w/neighborhood wireless before?
<jamest> nope
<ajmitch> hi hi
<ajmitch> not yet
<ajmitch> was at a local wireless group meeting the other night :)
<jcater> I just measured the distance between our house and our bookstore
<jcater> it's between 0.2 and 0.3 miles
<ajmitch> planning for an eventual city-wide MAN
<jcater> which is closer than I realized
<ajmitch> jcater: you can get up to 25 miles with directional point-point
<jcater> there is one row of trees between us
<ajmitch> so 0.3 is no problem if there's no obstructions
<ajmitch> hmm
<jcater> (and residential houses)
<jcater> we have a 2 story though
<ajmitch> trees can be worse in winter
<jcater> it's a single line of trees
<ajmitch> when they get wet
<jcater> not like a forest
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> go to max signal strength at both ends, good cards, good directional antennae, and test
<jcater> you have any links to recommended equipment?
<ajmitch> just a min...
Action: jcater figures with the cost of broadband
<jcater> it wouldn't take me long to recover the costs
<jcater> of doing a one-time wireless to my house
<ajmitch> www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/CategoryHardware
<jcater> vs having broadband in 2 places
<ajmitch> apparantly cisco cards are good
<jcater> ouch
<ajmitch> prism2 chipsets work well with GNU/Linux, in HostAP mode
<jcater> I'm sure that name shoots the price up
<ajmitch> yeah
<Mr_You> 25 miles for what?
<ajmitch> http://seattlewireless.net/?HardwareComparison
<ajmitch> Mr_You: 802.11b 
<Mr_You> ahh ok
Action: jcater thought it was closer to 2.5 miles
<jcater> I guess I'm out of touch :)
<ajmitch> nope
<Mr_You> 25 miles could be askin for trouble ;-)
<ajmitch> had adam shand, top personaltelco person, talking at the LUG the other night
<ajmitch> he's an ex-dunedin person, so it was quite good :)
<ajmitch> #wireless on freenode is also good
<ajmitch> ah, the seattle wireless page looks good
<Mr_You> I can't see 25 miles realistic unless 2Ghz phones aren't sold/used in your area ;-)
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<ajmitch> Mr_You: it was on the edge of portland on a clear day, iirc :)
<Mr_You> multiple points?
<ajmitch> point-point
<ajmitch> one of which was on the back of a truck :)
<Mr_You> two points only, spanning 25  miles?
<ajmitch> yup
<Mr_You> if a 25 mile 802.11b signal lasted more than a year, I'd be satisfied.
<Mr_You> but the FCC might shut it down
<ajmitch> it was a one-off thing
<Mr_You> ok, yeah I don't see it as a realistic setup.
<Mr_You> maybe possible, but not realistic.
<Mr_You> better off with multiple access points, bridging one another.
<ajmitch> yup
<Mr_You> my orinoco/lucent card works fine with linux.
<ajmitch> yup
<ajmitch> i think prism2 chipsets are the only ones capable of HostAP
<Mr_You> the latest wincrap driver is trash tho
<Mr_You> HostAP?
<ajmitch> yeah, running a linux box as an AP
<Mr_You> hmm
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<ajmitch> yo jbailey
<jbailey> Hyea Andrew
<Mr_You> that is builtin to the driver?
<ajmitch> Mr_You: it's an option
<ajmitch> http://personaltelco.net/index.cgi/HostApMode
<Mr_You> in the driver only?
<ajmitch> afaik, yes
<ajmitch> i don't have the hardware
<ajmitch> it's dependant on the card
<Mr_You> hmm.. well.. is ad-hoc/computer-to-computer the same as being a NAP?
<ajmitch> don't think so
<Mr_You> my wincrap orinoco driver has ad-hoc capability
<Mr_You> wait a minute
<ajmitch> right, i think most of them do
<Mr_You> I would agree with you, but the Apple Airports use the same card as this orinoco
<ajmitch> adhoc mode isn't hostAP mode, there's a difference in protocol
<ajmitch> Mr_You: hmm, read the personaltelco.net wiki & tell me what you think :)
<Mr_You> ok, maybe some other time ;-)
<ajmitch> it'd be nice to use them, but you'd have to hack your own firmware
<ajmitch> which is why only the prism2 work in hostAP mode currently :)
<Mr_You> who makes prism2?
<ajmitch> intersil makes the chipsets
<ajmitch> lots & lots of card manufacturers use them
<Mr_You> one day, I'd like to use this laptop as a satelitte broadband connection.. so I could hook it up ad-hoc or up to the airport.
<ajmitch> http://personaltelco.net/index.cgi/Prism2Card
<ajmitch> that'd be nice
<Mr_You> unfortunately itwould require a Wincrap gateway <-> satelite
<ajmitch> ugh
<ajmitch> hack time! ;)
<Mr_You> well I'm sure someone is out there working on a direcway satellite driver
<Mr_You> I think someone has, but its for commercial apps
<ajmitch> yeah, no free drivers :(
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<ddttmm> http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Networking/WebServices/1_intro_folder/XML_RPC_vs._SOAP.html
--- Sat Oct 12 2002