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<btami> good morning
<psu> hi btami
<btami> hi psu
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<psu> btami: got the e-mail, thanks.
<btami> ok
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<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<reinhard> hi ajmitch
Action: reinhard is amused how he's always greeted after an autorejoin :)
<ajmitch> i didn't see you leave, i was disconnected for awhile
<derek> reinhard: we are just a friendly bunch
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<Korbinus> Hi
<jcater> good morning
<jcater> or afternoon, depending on where you're from
<Korbinus> I'm from Sweden, so it's afternoon :)
<Korbinus> I am looking for a free tool for designing ERD stuff, I quickly read about GNU designer...
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<Korbinus> Is Desginer allowing me to do ERD or not? I have been on www.gnuenterprise.org but I am a little bit confused
<jcater> GNUe Designer is more for designing data-bound forms
<jcater> there has been talk about adding an ERD module, but that's not really what it does
<Korbinus> okay, now I get it
<Korbinus> do you have a clue about free ERD tools?
<jcater> I'm trying to think of some ERD tools.....
<jcater> I am not really familiar with any specifically for ERD
<jcater> I've heard that some use dia
<jcater> (a free diagramming tool)
<jcater> and that there's a free tool that takes dia files
<jcater> and can create SQL create statements
<Korbinus> ok
<jcater> that's not exactly an ERD tool
<Korbinus> no
<jcater> but I don't know exactly how complex you need
<jcater> I assume you are looking for something more like a free version of Rational's tools?
<Korbinus> yes, or a free v. os Sybase PowerDesigner
<Korbinus> s/os/of
<jcater> yeah, I'm not familiar with any free tools like that
<jcater> but that doesn't mean they don't exist :)
<Korbinus> yes :)
<jcater> if you find any though, stop back in and let us know
<jcater> as we do get asked that occasionally
<Korbinus> okay, I'll do it
<Korbinus> I found Dezign, but you must pay for it
<Korbinus> and DataArchitect, but it's not free either
<Korbinus> thanks I'll search more about this Dia option
<jcater> ok
<Korbinus> bye
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<derek> k
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<KeithJagrs> hello ;)
<wayneg> hello KeithJagrs
<KeithJagrs> hi!
<KeithJagrs> Hey which is better between webware, skunkweb and twistedmatrix
<wayneg> sorry i have no idea ... haven't heard of either 
<KeithJagrs> hmm
<KeithJagrs> They are python app servers, the way JBoss and Enhydra are Java app servers
<wayneg> i see ... i'm not a python man ... but i'm thinking of becoming one
<KeithJagrs> What languages have you tried until now
<wayneg> perl eeekkk, tcl/tk, bash 
<wayneg> also C, C++ ... looked at java once
<wayneg> how about yourself ???
<KeithJagrs> perl hehe
<KeithJagrs> hmmm
<KeithJagrs> in school basic, and fortran and some cobl
<KeithJagrs> cobol
<KeithJagrs> but basic knowledge, not deep
<KeithJagrs> more recently php and python
<wayneg> i'm going to have to learn php in a month or so
<KeithJagrs> I was learning perl 4 years ago, but then I switched to php
<wayneg> i think you made a smart move
<KeithJagrs> Me too  ;)
<KeithJagrs> lots of braces, quotation marks and semicolons in PERL were about to make me crazy
<KeithJagrs> I also have refused to learn asp. Don't like M$ stuff. I rather feel myself with a clean soul
<wayneg> yeah and all the $_ $! $. "Special Variables" who needs  to try and remember all that crap
<wayneg> =) ... you'll get no argument here 
<KeithJagrs> yes. you sure aren't going to miss all that with python
<jamest> wayneg: avoid python
<wayneg> jamest: why's that ???
<jamest> you'll hate php even more in a few months if you've already worked with python
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<jamest> :)
Action: jamest loves python
Action: jcater does a screenshot and calls Lindsay....
<jamest> i'm an ex-php, C, C++, fortran, etc user that would rather use python
<reinhard> jcater: lol
<wayneg> so python is a good language to learn ... yes ?
<jamest> I also have a very strong dislike for java
<jcater> wayneg: you are asking a highly biased group of people
<KeithJagrs> jamest: why do you hate java?
<jcater> ... but, yes, python rocks
<wayneg> jcater: it doesn't matter ... i'll pick up a coupla books soon and find out for sure myself
<jcater> that's like asking the JBoss people what they think of java ;)
<jamest> i tried java in the past (back when swing) was not part of java
<wayneg> i'm not yet very fluent in any scripting language and i'm trying to find you that suits me 
<jamest> it was a pain then to work with and resource hog
<jcater> Things I like about python
Action: jcater feels like he's in 1st grade
<jcater> 1. Lightweight
<jcater> 2. Not heavily typed
<jcater> 3. Easy to use for both top-up and bottom-down programming
<jcater> 4. Just enough object-orientedness to actually be useful
<jcater> 5. Jamest like it, so it must be da bomb
<wayneg> haha
<KeithJagrs> heh
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> and the most important to me:
<jcater> 6. It forces cleanly written code, so I can pick up on other people's stuff quickly
<KeithJagrs> yes
<jamest> 7.  it's got a name that lends itself to phallic references
<KeithJagrs> and it is also GNU?GPL
<KeithJagrs> gnu/gpl
<jamest> it's gpl compatible
<jamest> but not GPL IIRC
<KeithJagrs> IIRC?
<jamest> if i recall correctly
<KeithJagrs> he
<wayneg> can you set some flag or something to make it typed ??
<KeithJagrs> well python has its own license type
<KeithJagrs> GPL compatible 
<wayneg> sorry i mean so you have to declare your vars before you use them (typed =)
<jcater> no
<jcater> no such types
<jcater> for better or worse
<KeithJagrs> yeah. for better or worse
<wayneg> hmm
<KeithJagrs> In fact, that is one of the things Java zealots don't like about python
<wayneg> O well if that's it's only short coming it's miles ahead of the lang's i've tried 
<jcater> I prefer it that way
<jcater> but that's a matter of taste
<KeithJagrs> yeah
<KeithJagrs> id like it that way too
<jamest> I personally like the fact it's dictionary based 
<wayneg> yes it is a matter of taste =)
<jamest> you can do some wicked stuff w/ that at runtime
<jcater> yeah
<wayneg> dictionary based ??? 
<jcater> if you know much about OO theory
<jcater> Python is a message-based Object language
<jcater> (much like smalltalk)
<wayneg> i see
<jcater> when you want the object to do something or want an attribute, you are really sending the object a message 
<jcater> that says "Hey, send me this attribute"
<jcater> now, in normal usage
<jamest> like jcater's self-aware, polymorphic, hemophilic, supercalifragilistic, spazomatic, morphing code
<jcater> it's indistinguishable from Java objects
<jcater> but what's really cool
<jcater> is if you need to do advanced stuff
<jcater> you can intercept these messages
<jamest> basically tack at -ic only any word you want and jcaters made code that acts like that :)
<jamest> s/only/on
<jcater> e.g., you could create an object that proxies for another object
<jcater> so if you have o = object and p = proxy of o
<jamest> our trigger namespace code does that 
<jcater> and you do p.doThis()
<jcater> you can have code in p that makes p look like it has the doThis() method
<jcater> maybe I'm getting ahead of myself
<jcater> just letting you know the power of python
<wayneg> no i understand 
<wayneg> i have a lecturer that drills as about the evils of such things =)
<wayneg> not saying i agree
<jamest> you should
<jamest> it's pure evil
<wayneg> haha
<jamest> but evil has it's place in the world
<jcater> well, it's funny
<jamest> mainly in our .py files I think
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<jcater> if you talk to hardcore smalltalk people
<jcater> they'll save java is NOT object based
<jcater> for this very fact
<jcater> python is kind of a middle ground
<jcater> you can have it either way
<jcater> s/save/say
<wayneg> well that's the best way ... strike a compromise
<wayneg> then everyone can be happy
<jcater> python is one huge compromise :)
<psu> except for fans of curly brackets {;-}
<jcater> well, that had unintended phallic connotations
<wayneg> opinions on best python newbie book ??
<jcater> I've honestly not read any python books
<jcater> so I can't say
<jcater> python.org has some really, really good tutorials
<wayneg> what?
<jcater> for any stage of programming experience
<wayneg> ok cool
<jcater> from new-to-programming
<jcater> to new-to-python
<jcater> but someone else might be able to recommend a book
<jamest> i recomment avoiding the o'reily books
<jamest> the one I have SUCKS
<jcater> psu: you going to have my KC's ready for Sunday breakfast?
<jcater> or do I need to troutslap you around?
Action: jcater ducks
<jamest> the tutorials on python.org are the best ref I've found online
<wayneg> i'm already looking =)
<wayneg> dumb question (but all this talk on python has got me wondering): how many people in here are working on the gnue software ??
<jamest> 1
<jamest> :)
<jamest> actually quite a few but most of us are busy or burnt out at the moment
<wayneg> where's the best place to dive into some code ??
<jamest> jcater is still plugging away 
<jamest> our code? or other example code?
<wayneg> just found this tonight ... exactly what i was going to be programming ... but thank god for the open source movement 
<wayneg> yeah gnue 
<jamest> ah
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<jamest> boy
<wayneg> just wonna get a feel for what's going on ... read as much as i could on the web page
<jamest> the forms, designer, and common are probably the most complex
<Keith_jgrs> jamest have you tried webware
<jamest> navigator might be simple to get python feel but common is the core of everything
<jamest> Keith_jgrs: no
<wayneg> ok thanks 
<Keith_jgrs> or skunkweb or twistedmatrix?
<jamest> no
<psu> jcater: should do. I just have some missing URLs to hunt down 
<psu> On a completely different topic, can anyone confirm that the Connection form 
<wayneg> ok it's 6 in the morning here in oz land and i gotta get some sleep =) night ... afk 
<psu> in the 0.4.0  install works on *nix platforms?
<jcater> oz land?
<psu> I've done about 1/2 hour's sanity testing of Bajusz's new Win32 setup.exe package
<psu> jcater: oz == australia
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<psu> and this seems to be all that's not quite right
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I didn't want the connections editor to be linked to in the install
<jcater> as it wasn't tested
<jcater> that'
<jcater> that's why no links to it were created in the 0.4.0 official release
<psu> If it works in the *nix version, I'll just list it as a known bug in the Windows version
<psu> If  it doesn't work in the *nix version, I'll just list it as a known bug period.
<jcater> it doesn't work on mine
<jcater> but that's because he doesn't account for service= type connections
<jcater> not all connections are host/dbname based :-/
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<jcater> that's pretty slick though
<jcater> once we get stuff ironed out
<psu> agreed - it's a bit like the early versions of Designer
<psu> It looks so cool and useful that 
<psu> the fact it doesn't quite work yet is forgivable
<jcater> surely
<psu> Of course, Designer is much more solid these days anyway
<jcater> that's debatable
Action: jcater hides
<jcater> oh wait
<jcater> I'm the main coder
<jcater> doh!
<jcater> main coder = main coder of designer
<psu> well, Derek doesn't seem to say "goshdarnit, i forgot to save every 5 mins" as much these days
<psu> that's all i'm going on
<Keith_jgrs> heh
Nick change: Keith_jgrs -> KeithJagrs
<psu> Of course, those far-off days when men were men 
<psu> & forms defs were done in emacs/vi 
<psu> were before I got here
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<KeithJagrs> gotta go
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<chillywilly> wtf is an .sxw file?
<jamest> OpenOffice file IIRC
<chillywilly> ooooh
<chillywilly> that thing is too painfl for me to run ;)....I tried to open a rtf version of lord of the rings but my mahcine couldn't take it ;)
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/Developers-Guide.pdf
<jcater> is the pdf version
<jamest> man
<jamest> the framerate on an RTF lord of the rings would SUCK....I'd just buy the dvd
<jamest> unless you can hit page down at 30fps
<chillywilly> the ebook man!
<chillywilly> ;)
<jamest> :)
Action: chillywilly has text versions too
<chillywilly> I am now on Chapter 5 of The Two Towers
<chillywilly> Book I - Chater 5
<jcater> chillywilly: so, who wins?
<jcater> :)
<jamest> ooooo
<chillywilly> wins what?
<jamest> isn't e-books DRM enabled?
<chillywilly> the great war?
<chillywilly> umm, no..this isn't a ebook like adone or M$ defines
<jcater> I've almost finished my "Creating your First Form" section
<jcater> yay
<chillywilly> adobe
<chillywilly> kewl
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<nickr> chillywilly: can ya hook me up witch the ebooks?
<nickr> unless of course you actually payed for em
<nickr> I wouldn't want you to break your license.
<chillywilly> hah!
<chillywilly> yea I paid for them ;)
<chillywilly> NOT!
<chillywilly> one sec
Action: jamest looks over at gnuebot
<jamest> gnuebot: please strike chillywilly's comments from the logs
<chillywilly> http://frell.dyndns.org/ebooks/
<nickr> I was just kidding *wink* I would never ask chillywilly to break the law *wink* *wink*
<chillywilly> *wink*
<nickr> wget, engage suckage.
<chillywilly> works from marx, jrr tolkien, homer, and neitzsche
<nickr> go go gadget neitzche
<chillywilly> I have the oddessey and the iliad
<chillywilly> the communist manifesto
<chillywilly> ;)
<nickr> *wink*
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<nickr> er, how do I find out if a particular object is in a certain class?
<jcater> if isinstance(particularObject, CertainClass): 
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<nickr> ah excellent
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<ajmitch> hello
<crazymike> hi ajmitch 
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<derek> sup jbailey
Action: derek is back (gone 14:10:41)
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<jbailey> Heya Derek
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<ajmitch> hi jcater
<jcater> hi
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<chillywilly> this network licks sack
--- Sat Oct 19 2002