right now john cougar - jack and diane Action: derek embarassedly admits Culture Club - I'll Tumble For You is next in the cue HEH whoa. we had that crap on 8track Action: derek has a WIDE variety in taste most modern christian music though with oldies rock and 80s pop mixed in dtm: you might get a kick out of this one daughter is having a slumber party and the wife took them out to Toilet Paper some houses for a prank omg hehehe that's insane being an upstanding youth pastor of course i suggested they start with the senior pastors house ;) ToyMan (~stuq@glvv-dsl1-116.citlink.net) left irc: ": I'm off to make more toys..." dyfet (~dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sup dave oh just working late quiet night it seems :) yeah but you and i are here now, so LETS PARTY we are close to a 1.1 release in bayonne.... Action: derek turns on the disco ball and throws in the BeeGees Staying Alive soundtrack opps sorry wrong decade lol cool on release well, i thought i would exercise my fair use rights over my doors collection actually as chillywilly would say i need to get a frelling copy of bayonne working i just got a new phone that does AOL IM and im enamored Action: derek is drooling over possibilities actually I have considered adding im support to Bayonne....so it can send sms messages and popups with incoming call info hmm it does sms grr i REALLY need to get a hold of it the biggest hold up (i know you guys hate hearing this) is it needs to support normal modems well, it could though something like jabber, i suppose, where there are appropriate im/sms gateways. thats why i want to build an im module in bayonne currently the hardware cost is way too high barrier to entry for 'free software' developers derek, free is not free as in price :) i know freedom is expensive just free software developers unless commissioned directly to install phone software can not afford 500+ for a professional phone card i think if it ran on modems you would have a huge user base it is often the most expensive and valuable commodity...(freedom that is) i know for myself i would be running at home I would like to get a modem version running but cant afford the card i have 3 clients that are considering buying hardware there even is a start of a voicemodem driver, but nobody has been working on it but its hard for me to give strong recommendation when i havent driven it myself i have been trying to work with rich on a client so that i can get a bayonne install and get an idea for capabilities and MOST importantly start writing applications to it :) and most important, I think, writing applications that integrate into/relate to gnue apps.... david! whaddap dyfet: bayonne 1.1 already?! getting close to that, yes probably would have been out last week but for my pbx card getting busted dyfet: derek wants normal modem support.... maybe we should give him the friends & family discount on an Openline4 instead ;> dyfet: oh no yep, right after the free software business expo hahahah "free is not free as in price" Words of wisdom, Lloyd! so i am waiting for the replacement to arrive so i can do a final unittest before the release well was it insured? :) yes, the replacement is already on it's way here when it arrives, i will do the release :) jcater: if you are around speak up i need to ask you questions! derek: you should email him then! the pbx exhibition went well though dyfet (~dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" CVS: Committing in . CVS: CVS: Added Files: CVS: AUTHORS COPYING INSTALL README TODO contacts/contacts.gpd CVS: contacts/forms/contact_manager.gfd CVS: contacts/forms/lu_address_type.gfd CVS: contacts/forms/lu_email_type.gfd CVS: contacts/forms/lu_phone_type.gfd schema/README CVS: schema/account.gsd schema/account_addr.gsd CVS: schema/account_alias.gsd schema/account_contact.gsd CVS: schema/account_email.gsd schema/account_note.gsd CVS: schema/account_phone.gsd schema/account_url.gsd CVS: schema/addr_type.gsd schema/contact_addr.gsd CVS: schema/contact_email.gsd schema/contact_note.gsd CVS: schema/contact_phone.gsd schema/contact_url.gsd CVS: schema/department.gsd schema/email_type.gsd schema/item.gsd CVS: schema/item_category.gsd schema/item_source.gsd CVS: schema/item_status.gsd schema/note_type.gsd CVS: schema/order_item.gsd schema/personnel.gsd CVS: schema/phone_type.gsd schema/sales_order.gsd schema/store.gsd CVS: schema/url_type.gsd CVS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- yumminess! gack all the item stuff isnt there whew now added and committed watch out foolz here comes gnue-sb heh nice. I assume designer reads gsd files and outputs sql? kind of how you import the schema into a db then? Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-247-243.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. IsoosI (dahoose@port-219-88-247-119.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) website for it committed too wee esands: gsd is an xml file currently you use xslt and an xsl (style sheet) and it makes a sql file Action: derek thinks designer might do this I sohuld be committed currently i do it via command line eventually it will do it designer that is evening lads designer will take database tables and create gsd's :) which should make it easier for others to adopt night ajmitch Got the details, so I can have a fiddle with gnue-sb. turning in early? must be feeling sick He must have an exam tomorrow esands: yes but its broken Its like only 8:40pm here. the gsd stuff in gnue cvs is broked unless jcater fixed it today i have local cache of some things that work Action: derek is consolidating many things You have the xslt/xsl method writing up? DCL, Acclite and custom stuff I have Which is of course your job so expect gnue-sb to be a bit broked for a few days until i get all schemas talking the same Will it (gnue-sb) work against acclite's schema? and revisit all my forms i said evening! not goodnight! heh for now just wanted to get consolidated and into cvs although esands is right about having exam tomorrow :) ajmitch: whew i was worried Why you here? ;) esands: re: xslt its all in gnue-common iirc should be build.py or something that lets you do things esands: exam's at 2:30 :) So, shouldn't you be studying? pyxslt i think is the name of the binary heh in gnue/common/scripts/ or something ah yes, study... You mean ../gnue/common/scripts/pyxslt ?? gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/ i think has the stylesheets esands: yeah that would be it what deb is PySablot? there should be a readme in the xml2sql dir debs arent in sid yet :( working on it they are on our website though :) Nice. Oh. Yes. what was that source.list line again? let me find http://gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/debian/ is where you can find the .deb file Action: derek has no clue as to the 'sources.list' i forgot to add to mine Action: derek is hoping to get stuff in sid ASAP /etc/apt/sources.list ? jbailey hopefully adopted gnue and is working on it esands: i know what sources.list is, i meant no clue as to what gnues is nickr can do pysablot just waiting on its maintainer to apply some patches That sources line was: deb http://www.gnuenterprise.org/debian woody main pysablot's not in the repository though. Only on that jcarter link yea you can get it from my site too try deb http://www.gnuenterprise.org/debian woody main oops you found it never mind Action: derek was grepping log in another channel Action: derek wants to know how they consider it woody :) Action: derek was looking for sid or unstable Maybe it was built on a woody machine they were probably compiled on woody Hmm.' [nic@thunder:~/devel/gnue/gnue-sb] ../gnue/common/scripts/pyxslt -i schema/item.gsd -x ../gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/pgsql_2.xsl -o t' doesn't work to well Neither does sabscmd er, sabcmd sabscmd? Action: derek warned that likely the stuff in gnue/common was borked Action: derek loves that within minutes of cvs checkin there is checkout + bug reports ;) From the xml2sql readme and who says free software dont work ;) heh, fs/oss development. 8) All I'm getting as output is: Excuse the flood [nic@thunder:~/devel/gnue/gnue-sb] sabcmd ../gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/pgsql_2.xsl schema/item_source.gsd sigh you mean i will have to test this crap now :) id id description [nic@thunder:~/devel/gnue/gnue-sb] Lots of empty lines there as well [nic@thunder:~/devel/gnue/gnue-sb] sabcmd ../gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/pgsql_2.xsl schema/item_source.gsd | wc -l 19 Heh. No matter, I can sleep on it and I'm sure someone will have sorted it out by the morning. ;) esands: well you are doing it wrong ;) if you give me a minute i will tell you how Action: derek has to get pysablot :) sure thing. 8) Action: derek forgot i dont have on my laptop piss latitude:/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue-sb/schema# apt-cache search pysablot pysablot2.1 - Python bindings to the Sablotron XSLT engine latitude:/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue-sb/schema# python i think python2.2 is my default np, I can wait until tomorrow. Action: derek tries unstable give me a minute minor road block You could run python2.1 Action: ajmitch just reading gnue-dev archives, how's things going with Via Libre & PAPO people? ok you should have to do something like this dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ ~/cvs/gnue/common/scripts/pyxslt -i account.gsd -x ~/cvs/gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/pgsql.xsl -o pgsql.cmd.xml dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ ~/cvs/gnue/common/scripts/pyxslt -i pgsql.cmd.xml -x ~/cvs/gnue/common/utils/xml2sql/strip.command.xsl -o pgsql.sql Error [code:2] [URI:file:/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue-sb/schema/pgsql.cmd.xml] [line:13] XML parser error 2: syntax error dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ Yep again as iterated the stylesheets/pyxslt in common is probably broked i built all my schemas on a GOOD copy and jan was playing aroudn as was jcater with the gnue ones Action: derek warned VERY strongly that this would screw me and now as you see it has :) I assume you are getting good sql out, while I'm just getting strangest. I guess I'll be waiting for jcarter to fix things dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ ~/cvs/ue/sql/pyxslt -i account.gsd -x ~/cvs/ue/sql/pgsql.xsl -o pgsql.cmd.xml dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ ~/cvs/ue/sql/pyxslt -i pgsql.cmd.xml -x ~/cvs/ue/sql/strip.command.xsl -o pgsql.sql works perfectly i can send you pgsql.sql and strip.command.xsl im using if you like just give me an email address i would replace what is in gnue cvs and tell you to update but i wnat to talk to jcater first thus my earlier question (where is jcater?) ;) nic@plumtree.co.nz dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue-sb/schema$ less pgsql.sql Create Sequence seq_account; Create Table account (account_id int4 NOT NULL default nextval('seq_account'), name varchar(80) NOT NULL, active varchar(1) NULL default 'Y', parent int4 NULL, created_on timestamp NOT NULL default now(), created_by int4 NOT NULL, modified_on timestamp NOT NULL default now(), modified_by int4 NOT NULL); Create Unique Index pk_account On account(account_id); pgsql.sql (END) is the output fwiw definitely not what I get. ok on its way to you note the contact stuff is severely broken as i changed table names before checking in but never touched the forms the item stuff should work i suppose since i have church in the morning i should go to bed i plan to continue tomorrow esands: i have real world deadlines and others have needs that are watiing on us so expect gnue-sb to move at fairly steady pace compared to how gnue apps have gone in the past excellent. Hopefully I can help things along as well. Action: derek is away: sleepy pooh Works now. Thanks derek. I'm pretty busy tomorrow as well, got some new windows and french doors turning up. ajmitch: good luck if I dont see you before your exam Hmm. ERROR: Attribute 'source_id' not found [nic@thunder:~/devel/gnue/gnue-sb/item] grep -s source_id ../schema/* ../schema/item_source.gsd: ../schema/item_source.sql:Create Unique Index pk_source_id On source_lookup(id); Takes for forms/item_maint.gfd s/takes/thats/ reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: drochaid prods derek reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) reinhard_ (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: reinhard_ -> reinhard neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. ToyMan (~stuq@glvv-dsl1-116.citlink.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello neilt i guess you are reading my halloween mails ? yes i am how did the meeting go ello chillywilly: hello which list are the mails on? gnue-dev@gnu.org hmmm wonder if I got unsubscribed again somehow this is pissing me off not sure when they were sent, but they were the last 3 email ireceived http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gnue-dev/2002-October/thread.html http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gnue-dev/2002-November/thread.html is that accurate? has them all oh I might've read them then nope, I never got those man, I dnno why I keep getting unsubscribed it is annoying dragon (~dragon@pcd252010.netvigator.com) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly: gnue-dev has been pretty low volume lately most of the email are on the other list yes I have been getting gnue@gnu.org mails but gnue-dev I have not :) Action: chillywilly fails to see the humor reinhard_ (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt: any comments yet? happy to see the work progressing i think it is a good start with emphasis on "good" or on "start"? :) actually both well seriously i agree I want to build buniness objects and as long as we have a agreed aproach that works well I have a parser commited for ODL that uses PLY in case no one noticed, but I need to make it parse into something like perhaps an AST I am happy i hope we have finally agreed on storing the class definitions in the database I also like the idea that we have several people working on appserver and agreed to priorities or to be more precise in "system business objects" yes what did jan say? chillywilly: we also talked about your parser I don't really care, but I'm not sure I see a point if you se meta objects (like system tables) then those should go int he db as well as about comparable things that only exist more or less as an idea well I'll try and get through some mails and we agreed that it is a good thing to have parsers for other formats ;) that can read "external" defined objects and "merge" that into the "main" repository have to go to church in 30 mins or so :) as a separate command line tool k reinhard_: the back end for storing business objects should be plugable just in case chillywilly: ok i don't want to hold you back then :) we want to change it I figured using an xml markup as an exchange format between designer and appserver would be nice too neilt: yes that's why made it a separate "module" since designer probably wants xml reinhard_: excellent chillywilly: i'm not even sure if designer will be the tool of choice to define business objects well it is supposed to be our IDE isn't it? because an object definition is like a normal business object jcater made it so you could write plugins we could even have some "normal" form that accesses these metaobjects yea that we could do too reinhard_: can business objects be aggregates of other business objects? they have the cncept of relationships in ODL which is like having a ref to an object or cllection of objects neilt: can you give an example please? for example sales order you can have 1 to 1, 1 to n, and n to m relationships between the objects is the object presented to the gui a sales order or a sales order header and sales order detail objects so the GUI has to manage both objects or can the GUI just deal with one sales order objects the GUI will have to deal with two different objects Ugh however the details will be connected to the master not sure how one object could work so the GUI can just request the sale order and get all the header and items on the sales order s/can/can not/ ah ok i think i see what you are after the gui will request a specific sales order will get the requested header data then the gui will request a list of details to the order and fetch the first few items master-detail? because the sales order might have 1000 items on it and the gui doesn't want to load all 1000 at once Action: chillywilly finishes the "Halloween Documents" ;) the systems that I have been working with are doing it slightly different that does not make it right however the author of the form definition woudln't have to know how this works neilt: please explain reinhard_: these should've been about how we can defeat SAP, PeopleSoft, etc. ;) the systems I've been working with Action: chillywilly hopes everyone gets his reference make one business object that cooresponds to the form this business object can be a real object or a proxy object for several real business objects but this means that some of the complexity of the GUI is moved to the business object why aren't we sing the scope resolution operator instead of an '_' neilt: exactly nevermind this is the point i'm not sure if we want it because the GUI does not need to know how many (potentially loosely related ) business objects are displayed on the form) it just gets the data OTOH I prefer the scope resolition operator and methods to resolve names, etc. the form definition is in the appserver module::name reinhard_: i thought the form def was XML text file can be transformed in one line of python my point of view is rather that the appserver shouldn't deal with visualisation of data neilt: i meant if we define those "form-bound" business objects reinhard_: i agree that appserver should deal with visualation s/should/should not/ we move parts of the form definitions into appserver that means well but if we dont we move linking all of the data to the form? i for example think that the business objects shouldn't define whether i want to see header information and detail information on the same form or not reinhard_: exactly I agree with that appserver would define relations between objects ahh that is the problem like sales_head has a list of sales_items and sales_item defines a reference to the sales_head they also have to be defined by the form so the work to maintain it will be double but a form would have to define that it wants to _use_ that link and the forms or appserver will be fragile to breaking if one is changed but not the other reinhard_: that is the essence of the issue i see your point if the form just retrieves the data without know about the link it is IMHO actually independent of the master-detail problem then the form can use all of the data or just part of it or none of it we will always have this issue as long as form definitions (XML) and object definitions (database) are maintained seperately that a form definition doesn't match the underlying object not necessarily let me explain lets say i define a simple object with 3 properties (A B C) the form can referrence to object obj1 and the 3 properties ( A B C) lets say that I take property C out of obj1 and create obj2 with property C and link that to obj1 since obj1 can be proxy object the form can still think it is getting property C from obj1 but it is really stored in obj2 now ok i understand that even in MVC achritectures the view is separate from the model and any changes in one may have to be changed in the other however i don't understand how this could work with 1:n instead of 1:1 thats is the downside in that you hide the relationships in the proxy objects and the forms just deal with data the relationshipd should be refernceable in a form and/or trigger but the upside is that i can add a complex stored procedures to retreive data into andobject and the form does not need to know the relationship hmmm only that it should display the data but the form has to know that it's master detail doesn 't it? no I dont think it does then why wouldn't you just use the objects interface to change anything ans just worry about updating the form? (view) it needs to know that this object has a list of data to display how does the form know that it can insert a new item into the order? the list is either read only or read write if the list is added to then the business object maintains referrential integrity when it updates the db hmmm how does the form know that i can add another item to the order but i can not add another customer? it shouldn't display stuff to add a customer then ;) or the gui should be 'disabled' in the business object with is (1:1) with the form the properties are read only forms has read-only widgets s/with/which/ well i can _change_ the customer could someone be so kind as to forward me the Halloween mails? what email all 5 of them addr the ones on gnue-dev danielb@libertyetech.com to what email addr neilt: let my try if i understand you basically what you are talking about means that we have some "array" type of property would this be correct? reinhard_: essentially which in ODL would be a ref to a collection ;) reinhard_: but let me also say I did not plan to have this conversation this morning and so I am just reponsding with first thoughts ok :) cause relationships and attributes are the object "properties" not necessarily having thought through all of this but this is how some weel know system I am working with operate neilt: one of the side results of the meeting was s/weel/well/ we agreed that there has been much much talk about appserver and not so much implementation and that we have to start getting something done look where we will have the _real_ problems exactly and i dont want to get in the way of progress and improve that rather than for more months talking about problems that could theoretically arise very good example we just implemented that first draft api with jforms siesel found out we have to change it to make performance better so we changed it but if we hadn't done that prototype implementation unfortunately the fact that the forms architecture is relational based may well hinder the appserver design in the long run and I have accepted that we would never ever have seen the real problem except that I have see these problems but I will keep it to myself part of the problem relates to XMLRPC which is what you are refering to now and you are certainly right in that respect and part of the problem relates to bad design of the API which IIRC nobody saw before (at least I was not aware of it) I did, but people just want to see work done and everyone wanted this so i shut up and will do so again so then i would be thankful for a comment to the new api just a sec returning to my other ego reinhard_ (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There's always one more imbecile than you expect" back here :) Action: chillywilly is away: church ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-239.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise. hello ariel_! hi! did i lost something in the last hour? possibly neilt explained a system that lets you include several related business objects into a single "proxy" object however i felt that i partly failed to understand :( and sorry about the rant but i think there is a big difference between discussions that hold up progress and discussions that prevent further problems there _is_ a big difference the problem is that it's not always possible to tell in advance which category a discussion will end in ;-) exactly and that means that if you dont agree then continue on, never stop whether i agree or not - input is always valuable even whether i completely understand or not discussions should not mean that the idea has to adopted or dropped its always better to have additional input yes it's not only black or white the other item is that my view is for implementing large systems anyway i won't go there, sorry i better go nonw now later all later neilt thanks again neilt (~neilt@ip68-100-144-59.nv.nv.cox.net) left #gnuenterprise. for your input jamest (~jamest@adsl-208-191-39-241.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello jamest hi i meant last hour of meeting ah ok actually not you should probably read the halloween mail no. 5 which contains the stuff we discussed after you left dragon (~dragon@pcd252010.netvigator.com) left irc: "[x]chat" Action: derek is away: church derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection bbl Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-239.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client" psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. omg! someone who uses the debian packages has sent in a patch which fixes the Property Inspector issue :) :) :) the one we've been trying to figure out for a year now yay! and it's a one-liner whoop! is that the "can't edit field with scroll bars present" one? this is the great thing about free software users who fix their own bugs gotta love 'em drochaid: yeah :) psu: for the KC, that was from Monte Lin :) hint, hint All hail! Action: psu will have to cross-ref this to all the previous KC threads mentioning the bug must be a good dozen of them You mean the one's where I said it was a WX bug, and not a GNUe bug? Action: jcater hides his head in shame first line of defence "the wx docs weren;t clear" lol second line of defence "no-one else noticed it either" third line "derek told me to do it that way" ;-) lol Action: drochaid swaps first and third round Can people please check http://www.gnuenterprise.org/community/contrib.php in their favourite browser The e-mail addresses should be just about readable, but not too clear to foil spambots (probably futile, but I feel a need to make an effort) looks good in Opera v6.04 on Win2k looks good in Konqueror 3 and I guess even if anyone can test in MSIE, they are hardly likely to "out" themselves in this channel... lol Action: drochaid doesn't want to test it in IE Action: drochaid doesn't want to have to reboot his machine Action: jcater cranks up his win4lin instance well, for the most part, looks good the email addresses look like they're in superscript on IE 6 :) ah cool those are images isn't that spiffy well spotted ;) I'm assuming that most of the people on the end of info@gnue.org have spamassasin I do but for some of the others, an ounce of prevention Of course, it stuffs lynx users right royally but I'm afraid the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (in this case - I am normally a "sites unreadable in lynx are broken sites" zealot) man What manual page do you want? that many people are willing to associate their name w/ gnue the net is just full of sick people jamest: well, some of the "gone but not forgotten"s might be trying to live it down ;-) they were young and didn't know better eh? i think some of them are people we acquired in mergers hehe spoken by a true accountant back wehn you & derek were in "embrace and extend" mode "we acquired in mergers" well, we have to leverage our brand identity and focus on our core vision Action: psu is obviously sick, being able to come up w/this sort of stuff on a Sun Action: psu is away: gone to recover me in embrace and extend what was I thinking more users = more issues more coders = more solutions to those issues ok, who's got my NAV cd? own up, I know one of you do Action: jcater hides Action: drochaid stares Action: drochaid starts to cry this is ridiculous I'm a firkin Symantec authorised software partner and I don't have a NAV vd to hand :) s/vd/cd erm Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard back for a bit lo reinhard ok, I fess up http://www.newegg.com/app/specification.asp?item=32-108-112 there ya go psu: the email adresses are not very readable in galeon for example billh looks like biiih Action: drochaid stares in disbelief at the .asp part of the url reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Don't contradict a woman -- wait until she does herself" reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. grib (~grib@grib.customer.jump.net) left irc: "I'm too lame to make a quit message" IsoosI (dahoose@port-219-88-246-28.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@adsl-208-191-39-241.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Action: chillywilly is back (gone 04:28:11) newegg.com has nice prices someone posted it on our LUG list a while ago er, a link to it anyway it's my personal vendor of choice and jamest's (he tuned me into them) groovy btw, I don't think chillywilly@gnue.org works anymore Action: chillywilly was looking at the contrib page I don't have access to freeloader (gnue.org) to fix heheh, is that the box name? that's gnue.org, not gnuenterprise.org the latter is ash yea Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-247-243.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) the one in sunny AZ yeah freeloader as in, freeloading off of someone's T1 ;)P woot! who has access? derek? jade yea or that dewd derek might have root, I dunno come on now, would you give derek root access knowing his luck? ;) ajmitch has root access to my server... hrrm, I tried to sbscribe to gnue-dev again and I nevr got the little confirmation email I did however get the forwarded mails form neilt so I know my mail is working ;) woops, spolke to soon got filtered to my mailman folder Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) joined #gnuenterprise. hey jim what's up? lunch soon ;) er, well it will be ready anyway Action: chillywilly doesn't want his lunch coming "up" though ahh, the Small business image is broken on http://www.nongnu.org/gnue-sb/ hmmm Action: chillywilly blames psu that was, um, created late yesterday we haven't uploaded anything yet and they have our GNU status wrong :( we are trying to get that fixed jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-64-191-7.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest_ (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-64-191-7.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) morning you lot afternoon, senior aj psu: have you given any thought on how to handle our new GNUe/Small Business Edition? I think derek and I were leaning towards keeping it as GNUe (and so having it be a part of GNUe's website, somehow) we just wanted a separate CVS tree jcater: they been approved by savannah yet? :) ajmitch: I got root + savannah admin acces s so, yes :) hehe I signed up for savannah-hackers 2 days ago I got a confirmation email but no mail yet is it usually quiet on the weekends? surprising there's been mail hmm i saw rudy mailing maintainers@gnu.org asking about rentfree & gnue-sb Action: jcater is thinking about doing a webpage for gnue-sb (on savannah) that simply does a redirect to our main gnue site where's derek ? ran away it's past 1:00 pm his time surely he's out of church by now went to church, last i saw hmm sheesh! we need to work on his priorities reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. hi reinhard psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) got netsplit. Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) got netsplit. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) got netsplit. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) returned to #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net wb jcater and to you \away Action: psu is back (gone 02:22:47) jcater: Is the rationale for gnue-sb as seperate simply that we want the "official" apps to use appserver and this is therefore almost a self-fork? If so, then I think I would just add gnue-sb to the "Applications" section of the site once we have the gnu/non-gnu resolved, the gnue-sb web page will automagically live at www.gnu.org/software/gnue-sb www.gnu.org/software/gnue being the main web page reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) got netsplit. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) got netsplit. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. heavy cross-linking (and probably a common look and feel) to both hang on I'm on calvino I might be going..... reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. am I still here? I'm on brunner, but seem to be immune so far... wheeeeee psu: I wish derek were here Action: drochaid on saberhagen yep I think the final verdict is this is not really a self-fork this is a smaller, scaled down version incidentally we are **strongly** considering going to this gnue-??? model for all our gnue stuff gnue-forms gnue-reports etc Action: psu likes gives us an auto structure for the web site too as each gnue-foo will have its own mini site on www.gnu.org I hadn't considered the website structure implications actually, that is one of our hangups with /software/gnue/ as the official entry point as we were expecting it to be harder to do the websight :) and the whole thing mirrored onto ash website, even well another thing this would let gnue.org be more of a community site like derek's always clamoring for as we would always have easily accessible tool sites I dunno... I'll let our webmaster figure all that out psu well, www.gnuenterprise.org already has things that we wouldn't ever put on www.gnu.org e.g. the irc logs one of the big concerns is that our gnue/ cvs is getting way too big :) Action: psu nods psu: are you the website maintainer? drochaid: for my sins ;-) psu: could you do me a favour on it please? :) bugs to www-support@gnuenterprise.org drochaid: no nekkid goat porn derek said ;-) give documentation a much more prominent position? ah boo to the nekkid goat porn ban :'( Documentation is a funny one as we only have 1 docs page at the moment but there are at least 3 levels a) end user docs b) application developer docs (people designing apps with gnue) I always find it's one of the most important link .. and just now it's the 2nd last item on the menu, or into community and the 2nd last item, there c) GNUe developer docs drochaid: I think psu is waiting on us to give him better docs ;) I'd like to see "GNUe Docs" beside "GNUe Community" in the top header Short term, I may as well go back to the old "fudge" jcater: LOL which is to have Docs listed in both Project (loghically just under "Downloads" ) and also in Community as well jcater: I can't comment on that, I promised to write some back in June .. haven't had time yet :) psu: or just see my suggestion above maybe? The main sections (other than Project) link to the three bullet points on the home page at the moment So I guess I'd have to say that GNue was 4 things, one of which is a repository of docs and add another tab along the top Actually, that might not be a bad idea Action: drochaid spies psu trying to work drochaids suggestion round to his own way of thinking ;) but of course I used to be a consultant can I chime in? and all consultants know the art of modifying the customer's ideas to fit the pre-packeged solution jcater: ? I'd hate to see another tab across the top I think we have about as many tabs as we can realistically put there Action: psu agrees, esp. at 800 x 600 psu: what I think you'll find the real situation is, is that consultants take customer ideas and make them fit a pre-packaged solution :) Action: drochaid spits at jcater for dashing his new tab idea Action: jcater ignores drochaid... is used to being spit on lol I think each tab deserve's its own doc menu menu=page :o jcater: really really bad idea IMHO GNUe Community --> Developer Docs err crickey I dunno but if we have a centralized doc page I think it's going to be so confusing just thinking on basic knowledge management philophies if someone isn't sure which category a doc is likely to be in, could piss them off trying to find it Action: jcater is thinking on basic "Designing around tasks" mentality i.e., "What task is this web visitor doing?" Studying/writing with GNUe Tools? if they're centralised, there's nothing to stop you linking to docs within other sections as required Looking for Downloadable solutions? looking for goat pr0n? drochaid: well, that is true I'm still not sure I agree though :) my $0.02 (USD) : my suggestion would also allow the docs to be linked from within the sections at a location that is appropriate to the doc rather than a "docs" section in each main section Each module/tool/package needs a documentation section on its page but then each tab should have a documentation page linking to all relevant documentation e.g., GNUe-Forms has a doc section but GNUe Tools section has a doc page of all GNue Tools docs and on the right hand side the last (or first, whatever) option under GNUe Tools is Documentation So, you end up with GNUe Tools Forms Designer .... Document Store Documenation Gnue Packages Financials .... DCL Documentation or maybe having Docs as first option makes more sense either way am I making sense? yes the Forms/ page would still list all the form-related docs but from the main menu, you could quickly get to all tool-related docs too but I still disagree with the positioning/logic behind it that's ok, because I disagree with yours :) grrrr I noticed :) Action: jcater runs off to get his duel weapons drochaid: I challenge you to a duel LOL ok I've got a claymore Action: jcater takes off his gloves which arm would you like to loose first? :) Action: jcater puts his gloves back on and slowly walks away bwhahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAA one of the things we've been emphasizing over the last month or so is that the tools get lost in the apps so we're trying to point out that GNue is 3 projects in one I just think the documentation should follow in that focus as well and I'm talking at a minimum here whereas I would always classify documention as a separate project, as without really good docs, the tools/apps are useless to the less than technical users as far as I'm concerned, we could do: ie, me gnue.org/docs <-- all docs, categorized gnue.org/tools/docs <-- all tool-related docs gnue.org/tools/forms/docs <-- all form-related docs after all, I don't think psu has anything better to do LOL I would REALLY just rather see gnue.org/docs sub cats as required in that we already have that and links to individual docs as required from the relevant sections of the rest yeah, you have that logically .. but not obviously from a UI pov I don't like it from either standpoint, but we've already established that :)_ lol oh well, I'm not even a pretend member of the community, so I'll just bow out gracefully now ;) Action: jcater was hoping others would chime in I think psu is hiding as if I'm in the minority, I'll certainly bow out I really don't know what others think Action: psu isn't really fussed hey, even if you're in the majority ... you're still wrong jcater Action: drochaid runs away depends on the perspective Action: psu notes we need a lot more docs before any of this matters I still believe in task-oriented websites but that willcome psu: true dat anyway jcater: yeah, but as I've mentioned, I believe the docs are as important a task as the tools Action: psu is away: assisting wife's essay crisis - still logging drochaid: by task, I mean visitor task damn, that means we can't insult psu :'( :( of course jcater: I mean it in both development and visitor tasks I'll say this, as I have many times before ...as long as someone else is doing the website maintenance I am happy with whatever :) personally, I go to a site to find out about something, I want to see a prominant about/downloads/docs arrangement so I can scan quicjly and easily I don't want to have to go into one section and scan, then move to another and scan etc odds are, though you care about one section or another i.e., you are here to develop with the tools or you are here for the packages most will be, some won't even tho I'm nowhere near technical enough to think about developing .. I may still want to scan the docs as I find an understanding of the architecture and coding can help me design with a tool so I still use both anyways, I doubt either of us are going to change opinion since BOTH our opinions are valid from a different perspective .. so a small change of topic instead [and just SLIGHTLY OT :)] can anyone think of a decent domain to use for "Andrew Robertson Studios"?? Dema (rtyu@n100.ryd.student.liu.se) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) joined #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. deke! Action: psu is back (gone 00:25:54) ack! jcater: you around? drochaid: I assume the obvious 3-letter abbreviation is taken? Action: derek hasnt read back logs and i have nasty well ... im pissing out my arse ;) i will respond to your mail ASAP (between runs to the border) psu: it is :'( otay no hurry all points are very valid and was hoping to resolve before i committed anything last night but got impatient :) not like we're releasing tomorrow anyway :) I just wanted to put all my thoughts down in writing while they were fresh psu: as are all the most likely contenders I've thought of except the full name which I think is just too much allo de rek jcater: well actually... we will be releasing VERY soon possibly even tomorrow likely no later than wednesday at least for item stuff drochaid: try a .biz or other bijou domain? so it is 'critical' for me :) psu: erk, no ta ah Action: derek is very upset that gsd stuff in common is grossly broked Action: derek understands why and how and stuff happens drochaid: domain name registration is so critical these days Action: psu is registering a domain for a business I have no intention of starting for at least 2 years lol very wise I launched ARS on the 1st July 2001 been thinking about a domain since may 2001 got 2 photographers [inc me] and 2 artists involved just now and STILL no domain :'( Action: psu is away: bbl oh dear, I frightened him off :) drochaid: hey there1 ! hey dtm :) derek: so did you code stuff last night? drochaid: howya doin? erm .. no, but I designed a fairly complex site structure Action: drochaid notes he isn't derek and shuts up hehe well that's cool anyway! we all want to be derek, but alas there can be only one. LOL thank gawd! I don't think I could ever get any rest we don't want to be derek right now ;) with multiple dereks you dont want to be derek right now unless you like well severe stomach cramping no i dont! so i hereby reiterate my committment to delegating all derek-like duties to derek. Action: dtm is not derek who wants to be ajmitch for the day? ajmitch: not I, unless you are a well-figured 19 year old blonde chick sorry well he might be, for all we know! true dat has anyone ever met the REAL ajmitch? Action: ajmitch checks and how would you know? Action: chillywilly has seen pictures f ajmitch if you did? nope, i'm not well-figured, 19, blonde, or a chick chillywilly: how can you be sure? dtm: how can I be sure that you are who you say you are? come on, all i need is someone to sit the exam for me this afternoon! :) I'd be happy to sit in I couldn't promise a good grade though neither can i :) blah, I have more cleaning to do anyone know of some good, non-permanent glue? I want to turn some paper into, basically, sticky notes most glue will break down after you try to restick the notes by some frelling sticky notes ;) I don't need to restick them anyway, bbiab just one time use but when I take it down I don't want any glue to remaind remain I gess this goes to show just how cheap VPs are ;) Action: chillywilly is away: clean the house jcater: dont use jet glue then ;) you want 'rubber cement' based stuff likely as it is more like 'stickem' than glue ok I'm using christmas wrapping paper as a faux wallpaper in a display in the bookstore so, come December 26, I want it to peel off :) hi http://www.officedepot.com/shop/search/skuResults.asp?type=3&DIV%5FID=11&CATG%5FID=1101&SUB%5FCATG%5FID=1101001&FAM%5FID=322&ANDOR=&WILDCARDS=&STEMMING=&advancedqu=glue&SID=CBUBV165UM1C9G7MLULEXJF7NPK59JM6&PP=0 Action: psu is back (gone 00:31:13) or http://www.officedepot.com/shop/search/skuResults.asp?type=3&DIV%5FID=11&CATG%5FID=1101&SUB%5FCATG%5FID=1101001&FAM%5FID=321&ANDOR=&WILDCARDS=&STEMMING=&advancedqu=glue&SID=CBUBV165UM1C9G7MLULEXJF7NPK59JM6&PP=0 Action: psu thinks we should have a contest for the longest, most unbelievable URL but I think derek just won anyway woot! I think that's what I want psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("#gnuenterprise - for people not ashamed of the length of their URLs..."). oh so rock that resize of property inspector has been debugged!!!! what;'s that page to use that lets you shorten obscenely long urls? derek needs to find it quick hehe, didn't know such a thing existed ;-) www.google.com works for me someone pasted the url fr the page into this channel a while back, iirc Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:12:06) yeah, I know what you're talking about but I don't know the url makeashorterlink.com? or something like that interesting site yeah but they could've used a shorter domain :) masl.com http://www.maltaisgeomatics.com/ ?? :) night all reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There are two types of people: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't" Action: jcater is off to buy some poster tape at wal-mart I sent an email to www-supPort@gnuenterprise.org some time ago (retried today also) which gives an error-message. Then i tried with a guess: dneighbo gnue.org but I didn't get any reply on that. Can someone tell me this is alright, I can forget it and go to sleep? Or should I resend the mail (correction for webpages) to another email? email to info@gnue.org for now if you can email the error you get when sending to www-support@gnuenterprise.org as well that would be good as we can fix it will info@gnue spam lot's of ppl? nope like 5 or so you can send directly to derek@gnue.org if you are worried Ok, it's running through the net. if your name is simon i received it ok :) Then I'll go to sleep. Bye! Dema (rtyu@n100.ryd.student.liu.se) left irc: "zzZZz" dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. q dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: "later.." Action: chillywilly is away: clean the house some more siesel (jan@dial-213-168-72-219.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. hi hiya Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:29:18) hey chillywilly hey siesel_ (jan@dial-213-168-72-61.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (~yrashk@as5300.kharkov.ukrtel.net) joined #gnuenterprise. siesel_ (jan@dial-213-168-72-61.netcologne.de) left irc: "night all" siesel (jan@dial-213-168-72-219.netcologne.de) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) Yurik (~yrashk@as5300.kharkov.ukrtel.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dragon (~dragon@pcd252010.netvigator.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dragon (~dragon@pcd252010.netvigator.com) left irc: "[x]chat" KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) got netsplit. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) got netsplit. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) got netsplit. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) got netsplit. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) got netsplit. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) returned to #gnuenterprise. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: Client Quit rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: rdean is away: stuff to do dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) got netsplit. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) got netsplit. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) got netsplit. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) got netsplit. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) got netsplit. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) got netsplit. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit. KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) left #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) returned to #gnuenterprise. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net Phython (~jim@24.43.163.229) got lost in the net-split. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) got netsplit. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) got netsplit. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) got netsplit. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) got netsplit. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) got netsplit. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (~car@gso56-184-113.triad.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) returned to #gnuenterprise. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net ok, y'all cut that out jcater: you and the other children just cant learn to play nice now can you jcater: they're trying to tell you they agree with me on the docs issue Action: drochaid ducks and runs it's like he just keeps driving them away, out of the channel altogether rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) got netsplit. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) got netsplit. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) got netsplit. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. sfb- (mattr@chew.exelus.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@wlg1-port47.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat_ (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) returned to #gnuenterprise. paqan (~paqan@202.155.120.221) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm ([YdUiiN5Ft@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net jamest_ (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left #gnuenterprise. esands_ (~nic@mdr1-port10.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. esands (~nic@mdr1-port10.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) aliguori (~anthony@cs24317-130.austin.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all i was browsing the gnue website and saw the app server diagram had a quick question about the security adapter layer... noticed that ldap and active directory were connected to it (presumably, example security plugins) ldap doesn't seem like nearly enough for enterprise security though (and security is a huge part of the app server) so i was wondering if this project is going to have a huge dependecy on active directory? or are there plans to work on an enterprise security layer? probably plans to work on something - i very much doubt that there'd be an AD dependency :) it seems like a big portion... there's possibly more details in the mailing list archives - that's just an early diagram is this the same app server that the dotGNU project refers too? most likely :) :) especially as i'm the one who talks about dotgnu & gnue the most :) lol so this is the one that supposed to support both j2ee and clr ;-) a mighty big task... say what? not the GNUe appserver.. what's it based on? the GNUe appserver is written in python hmmm, that's quite different :) yes i guess i don't know enough about python to know whether it would lend itself to this kind of model does it have an architecture similiar to j2ee or .net? it's a programming language - we build the architecture :) :) I think you are describing a completely different type of appserver than GNUe is building probably this must be dotGNU's stuff, I take it? when i think of app server, i think WebLogic, WebSphere, or the MS App server... how does the GNUe app server differ? well,take away all those "web" references, for starters btw: i'm terribly interested in this area as i've been doing a lot of active directory interoperability work, so sorry if this comes off as grilling ;-) so its not based on a web client model, that's a good start IMHO but I'm not really a good one to be asking about appserver our main goal with gnue appserver is centralizing business application rules business logic, if you will there were a host of "Halloween" messages posted to our gnue-dev mailing list yesterday from the October 31 meeting of the appserver guys Action: ajmitch only saw one :( note that we aren't building a generic, all purpose application server ajmitch: ?? doh, i see that now :) only saw one halloween message hmm, i subscribed to that list yesterday or was it day before i should have got those messages anyway :) http://www.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/geas_notes.txt from a meeting a while back you will notice goal number one precludes use of j2ee and/or .NET i thought that was what dotGNU was though... a web services server (which is an app server) with a GPL CLR implementation my confusion i guess is the relationship between GNUe and dotGNU. dotGNU is implementing an open version of .NET and .NET app server and business logic server no DotGNU is building a framework with things like DGEE, which maybe what you're thinking of it's not going for just a .NET clone yes, i realize its not just trying to be a clone, but its implementing similiar functionality, or at least, this was my impression yeah wayneg (~merlinx@ppp1087.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) left irc: "You ain't got debian you ain't got shit!" nice /quit message so, it seems that the GNUe app server is based on RPC, LDAP, and Python. Seems a bit like Active Directory... so is my email program Action: jcater isn't familiar w/active directory jcater: MS' spawn AD = MS's answer to Novell NDS (at least it was NDS at the time...think it's Novell OpenDirectory now) that's what I was thinking Action: jcater is curious what that has to do with our business rules server so, my understanding of an app server is that its composed of a transport protocol (j2ee for WL & WS, LDAP+RPC for AD, and SOAP for .NET), a big server-library, and a database/transaction server aliguori: huh? from a web services perspective, I think you could have the business rules registered in the directory, and then clients would look it up in the directory when needed appserver can run fine w/o ldap it uses rpc but virtually any SOAP, CORBA, DCOM what ever melts your butter yes, ad uses both, but you could use anything Action: derek doesnt see it as anything REMOTELY like AD at ALL i would see it more like MTS than AD MTS? MS Transaction Server ok and even there its a bad analogy but better than active directory active directory isn't an app server it was a step towards one i imagine... nah active directory imho is 3 things 1. replacement to ldap (m$ doesnt want open standards) so ms's extensions to ldap actually were quite logically... but they did break the standards a bit superfluously ;-) 2. a penis measuring contest with Novells NDS (i.e. they have gotten their arses kicked so bad in this area bill problably told people their job was gone if they didnt trump novell in directory services) 3. a way to lockout non microsoft platforms from directory services best i can tell they are being successfull at 1 and 3 but still falling short on 2 the interesting thing about ad, is that they were able to integrate more of the platform into directory it's just the logical extension of MS Registry rdean: yes i think thats where they are going basically network registry services NDS was there to make admin life easy ADS is there to chain your ass to mickey soft Action: jcater stopped caring about MS plans long, long ago that is of course my opinion boy, do I sleep better at night well, at least, until I hooked up with GNUe so, my interest in the MS stuff is merely in overlap between dotGNU and GNUe of course :) now I have nightmares about shackles and dots and Mt Dew don't stop caring...stop worrying, but don't stop caring.....MS can lock up things with patents that will give open/free software developers fits i am not one of those keep up with ms people :) just trying to understand the two projects better :) aliguori: we are two very independent projects rdean: ok, I give you that crap i have a box of dots hidden away Action: derek forgot Action: derek thanks jcater jcater: yes, and i still don't understand the difference--that could be my ignorance ;-) aliguori: at this point there is no ties to dotgnu with gnue simply because an app server isn't a small task, at least, if scalability and mass acceptance is desired except perhaps observers that observe both projects there have been talks on two items one is using gnu-rpc derek: yes gnu-rpc? which at some point if a CLR was available could be converted into that derek: that's what i'm working on also there was talk by dotGNU folks to look at appserver as something they are interested in i couldnt tell you the status of either of these from dotGNU GNUe has working gnu-rpc in our cvs which was our end of the bargain :) i'm probably the main person who has feet in both projects (not so much in GNUe) the gnu-rpc implementation will be getting worked on next week after i finish exams, and appserver will be used where it suits if appserver is not suitable for more generic tasks, then we'll sort something else out :) whats gnu-rpc based on? dce-rpc ? no any particular reason not to base it on dce-rpc? gnu-rpc is an abstraction layer to allow multiple transports to be used think perl-dbi only for rpc mechanisms again its written in python well, the GNUe implementation is done in python :) how so? my one is being done in C# is it an object model? in a way - it's like System.Runtime.Remoting on .NET where remote objects can be manipulated in ways like local ones (at least that's the plan) not familiar with C# i'm afraid... i still think programmers should be more creative so its just like COM Action: Mr_You makes note. object.sniff.butt and such dol, scrollback syndrome. doh heh derek: what, you haven't looked at our dbdriver system? no, COM is less than ideal, it's one reason why .NET exists, to fix up some of MS' screwups & crappy COM API gack... oo creates ugly html http://www.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/schema.html new gsd info .NET is much more than that... mainly the bottom part is relevant aliguori: i realise that aliguori: and DotGNU is far more than the gnu-rpc implementation :) lol jcater: you into compiler sado-masochism? ajmitch: I am into all forms of S&M .NET to date is nothing cept vapor i got to sit through 5 days of smoke and mirrors to prove it ;) compiler, tail recursion, self-modifying python code derek: and the framework which people are using & have been writing apps on for awhile :) you name it it actually has code so its not vapor i guess but it was FAR from complete i felt like i was in a GNUe demo :) jcater: cool, i'm going to add python code generation support to treecc :) derek: MS has released a .NET server beta... how did the bayonne demo go? so if you want ultimate bloat, GNUe could get a compiler! ;) lol cool I guess actually I've been looking into supporting pyco sorry, psyco real? tail recursion? http://psyco.sourceforge.net/ aliguori / ajmitch not to burst your bubble, but m$ releases BETAS nearly 2 years before final product ships. Most customers consider the shipping product not USABLE until Service Pack 1 at a minimum self-modifying code?!? ajmitch: completely optional, of course currently that puts .NET about 18 mos out from even being usable derek: gives others time to catch up then :) chillywilly: python is suited for it besides, .NET has moved away from rpc.. rpc has many problems... wtf? rpc is a generic term all they do is preach SOAP whtf is SOAP? just like "app server" is :) smells like RPC to me rpc plus a dash or 10 of hype :) derek: sime object access protocol Action: jcater breaks out into tune of "Smells like Teen Spirit" no when i say SOAP i mean gnu-rpc SUPPORTS SOAP yep, her rpc means nthing but remote invocation er, here ah, i see Action: derek thinks its impossible ot have these hyped up buzzwords like 'web services' w/o RPC as without RPC you done have thick clients yuuuuuup RPC = Remote Procedure Call could be CORBA, DCOM, RMI, SOAP, XML-RPC, FOOMAGIC you name it i.e. its generic like the term SQL GOATSPEAK? hmm i almost have that ready for release that's what we should call the tcp/ip mechanism oh wait thats COWSPEAK GOATSPEAK mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the vinum author says you should be able to do remote mirrors using software RAID and iSCSI ;-) iSCSI just sounds like a BAAAAAD idea to me sime, effective, and painful ;) no way certainly it could have its uses GOATSPEAK er, simple but overall it seems like more hype less substance well, to make a tre analogy grpc format is more like WSDL than anything, imho atleast with cisco they are providing stats showing near fiber channel capability... like REALLY close.. or even in other aspects we suport multiple transports like WSDL etc. chillywilly: yup siesel & i have talked a little about gnu-rpc stuff derek: it will be excellent for synchronous file system replication. over long distances or even locally having looke dat both mysefl looked at WSDL is more crack-laden ;) Action: jcater will stick with my carrier pidgeon redundency system siesel is not here ;-) grpc is KISS all the way oh duh of course I read that wrong. we don't need to hype it Mr_You: why would siesel need to be here Yurik (~yrashk@as5300.kharkov.ukrtel.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater is one that wrote gnu rpc I thought andrew directed a message to siesel true siesel has fine tuned parts but really most of the code base was commited by jcater certainly he could answer the questions as well as jan :) nothing more ;-) he might not like to admit it, but that beast was his work :) sigh you outted me now, how can I face my 2-tier friends? i talked to siesel cos jcater is scary mwahaha boo! Action: ajmitch is scarier, especially when using the nick andrewm chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) sigh just the meer mention of it and you scared chilly away hehe rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" well, bbl chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. doh, I unplugged my cable modem by accident ;) good think you werent using iSCSI ;) lol :-P aliguori (~anthony@cs24317-130.austin.rr.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" Yurik (~yrashk@as5300.kharkov.ukrtel.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) --- Mon Nov 4 2002