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<chillywilly> hey guys
<chillywilly> there's a #christian channel on freenode in case anyone is interested
<chillywilly> like...oh say derek, ajmitch, and dtm ;) for starters ;)
Action: chillywilly is away: zzzZZZ
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<ajmitch> hi psu, reinhard
<psu> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> how is psu this day?
<psu> are you pre- or post- final exam?
<psu> not too bad
<ajmitch> pre
<psu> ack
<ajmitch> final one is thursday
Action: ajmitch looks forward to being able to relax & do some hacking
<psu> s/&/or
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> probably start gentle, with some C# & python
<ajmitch> GNUe stuff will come in there somewhere, i hope :)
<ajmitch> if i can find something that needs done
Action: psu suspects that gnue-sb will force quite a few issues in Tools
<psu> lots of TODOs suddenly appearing
<ajmitch> yup
<ajmitch> designer coudl do with some more plugins, i guess
<ajmitch> thankfully fsf got my copyright assignment stuff :)
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<zoyd> hi.
<zoyd> i'm downloading wxGTK-2.2.9 and wxPython-2.2.7, is that ok to run GNUe-0.4.0 ?
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<esands_> Works for me:
<esands_> [nic@thunder:~] dpkg --list \*wx\*  | grep ii
<esands_> ii  libwxgtk2.2    2.2.9.2        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GT
<esands_> ii  libwxgtk2.2-py 2.2.9.2        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (wx
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<Chipaca> hi all
<btami> hi
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<chillywilly> is it me or do you guys think it is lame to have a private devel/dev list for a Free software project?
<Chipaca> we have a private list and a public list, the private list is for coordination of the Fundación's team, not for discussion of the project
<Chipaca> dunno if you were referring to us :)
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> hurd-devel
<chillywilly> is read only unless yo are blessed or something
<chillywilly> s/yo/you/
<Chipaca> it is lame, but until recently all of GNU's subprojects were carried like that
<Chipaca> (cf. Cathedral)
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> LAME
<chillywilly> ;)
<Chipaca> quick question on python: is it "global foo; import foo" or viceversa?
<chillywilly> to import a module?
<Chipaca> yeap
<chillywilly> it si the latter
<Chipaca> in the OnStartup trigger, to be able to use it from the others
<chillywilly> crap I have to go
<chillywilly> s/si/is/
Action: chillywilly is away: work
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<Chipaca> jamest: hi
<Chipaca> jamest: tell me more about trigger libraries
<jamest> they're broken!
<jamest> :)
<Chipaca> ah, ok
<Chipaca> so I'll just carry on importing stuff the python way
<jamest> well
<jamest> how they work is
<jamest> your create a trigger lib file
<jamest> <form>
<Chipaca> suits me way up to the point the gfd lives in the database
<jamest>   <trigger type="named" name="foo">
<jamest>      print "Hi Mom"
<jamest>   </trigger>
<jamest> </form>
<jamest> then in your .gfd file you have
<jamest> let me start over 
<jamest> i have two files
<Chipaca> yeah, i got that :)
<jamest> testlib.glb   (my own bs name)
<jamest> test.gfd
<jamest> bash-2.05a$ more testlib.glb
<jamest> <form>
<jamest> <trigger name="helloworld" type="NAMED">
<jamest>   print "I'm alive!!!!!!!!!!!"
<jamest> </trigger>
<jamest> </form>
<jamest> now in my test.gfd I have
<jamest> <form tabbed="top" title="Welcome to GNUe Forms">
<jamest> <import-trigger library="./testlib.glb" name="helloworld"/>
<jamest> <trigger type="on-startup" name="startupTest" src="helloworld"/>
<jamest> the ./ on the library name is meaningless
<Chipaca> :)
<jamest> btw - I'm working on the library system now
<jamest> if you want to use them I think you can get the old system working by going into GFParser.py
<Chipaca> meaningless as in ignored, meaningless as in superfluous, meaningless as in breaks?
<jamest> meaning it'll pull from the current dir by default
<Chipaca> we're not currently on current cvs :)
<jamest> that's fine
<jamest> this hasn't changed in ages
<jamest> anyway try a simple one like above 
<Chipaca> ok
<jamest> if you get a key error with a key of 0
<jamest> then in GFParser.py look for a line like
<jamest>       self._importclass = self._xmlParser\
<jamest>          .getXMLelements()[string.lower(self._type[9:])][0]
<jamest> change the [0] at the end to read
<jamest> ['BaseClass']
<jamest> what I did for my testcase 
<jamest> was to take the intro.gfd file and modify the top to read like what I pasted above
Action: jamest is altering the parser system to allow other gnue apps to do imports
<jamest> the current cvs is forms only wrt imports
<Chipaca> ok
<jamest> i should have any gnue apps able to do them this morning (time allowing)
Action: jamest is caring for sick wife
<Chipaca> hmm
<Chipaca> send her a get-well-soon from the papo team :)
<btami> jamest: may i ask you to look at my patches in DCL ticket #159-160
<btami> if you have time :)
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<jamest> btami: if i can figure out how to get into dcl I will :)
<btami> ok
<btami> bye
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<jamest> whoop!
<jamest> i finally remembered my password
<jamest> ooo, he left
<drochaid> jamest: what's your password? :)
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> I'll take that as a maybe not
<drochaid> how are you?
<jamest> fine
<jamest> and you?
<drochaid> not too bad ta
<Chipaca> mmm-mode is sweet 
<jamest> ?
<Chipaca> random comment
<jamest> did you get the trigger libs working?
<Chipaca> (if the "?" was about relevance)
<Chipaca> jamest: no, I'm afraid I'll have to go to work to try that
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<jamest> lol
<jamest> i typically have to go home to gnue
<Chipaca> jamest: as I can't get gnue to work here (sid, python 2.2, no work)
<jamest> oooooo
<Chipaca> hee
<jamest> i think jcater has it working
<jamest> except for some database driver issues 
<jamest> i _think_
<Chipaca> dunno if it's us or gnue in general (we're using a slightly older gnue, slightly patches)
<Chipaca> yeah, I get the my foo is in your bar thing
<jamest> what!?!?!?
<jamest> i remember sticking in an error like that
<Chipaca> let me paste it
<jamest> but only when things failed rather hideously
<Chipaca>  You've got your bar in my foo! And you've got your foo on my bar!  Two great reams that ream well together!
<Chipaca> :)
<jamest> you know
<jamest> i wonder what companies think when they get error reports like that :)
<Chipaca> LOL
<Chipaca> 'uhhhh...'
<jamest> the worse I read about was a coder that left in a message to himself along the lines of 
<jamest> "hey dumbass, you shouldn't be able to do that"
<jamest> (this was a comercial product)
<jamest> anyway it shipped with the error message accidentaly left in
<jamest> some lady hit it :)
<jamest> can you imagine the tech support call
<jamest> "Yeah.  Your program called me a dumbass."
<jamest> "Well....is it true?"
Action: jamest just glimpsed thru the source and that error is gone in cvs
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<Chipaca> cool
<Chipaca> that'll reach us in time :)
<Chipaca> meanwhile I'll have to either do remote X or actually go to work
<Chipaca> I think my boss'll prefer the latter, go figure
Action: Chipaca waves
<Chipaca> I'm off
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<drochaid> no you're not
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<jamest> anyone know easy way to really load down the CPU on a machine
Action: jamest is testing a fix for the wx splashscreen timeout bad window error and think he figured it out
<jamest> but I need to really load this machine down to test properly
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<drochaid> lo revDeke
<revDeke> sup
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<btami> hi all
<btami> jamest: may i ask you to look at my patches in DCL ticket #159-160
<jamest> btami: i didn't see any attachments
<btami> or jcater :)
<jamest> so I couldn't look
<btami> ooo
<jcater> btami: I have some questions about the GContent patch
<btami> ?
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<jcater> as the desired behavior of reports is to pass out output exactly as it receives
<jamest> um
Action: jamest guesses he needs to know how to see attachments on a ticket
<jamest> as the web page showed no attachments
<jcater> jamest: I think he forwarded the patches separately to me
<btami> no, just 1 e-mail sended
<jcater> oh, maybe I'm thinking of something else
<btami> DCL doesn't shows attachments per default
<btami> and i don't know how shows
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<btami> jcater: i think "    /n" is not a real content in grd
<btami> and dumpXML makes tabulation
<revDeke> hmmm no attachments on those tickets
<nickr> haha
Action: revDeke needs to look at dcl and find out whats 'broked'
<revDeke> as www-support@gnuenterprise.org is failing for people
<nickr> dumbass
<nickr> hehe
<revDeke> er ok
<btami> jcater: you have attachments (patches from me)?
<Chipaca> hi all
<jcater> btami: yeah
<btami> ok
<jamest> nickr: yes?  you needed something
<jamest> oh wait, this is IRC not work, so I don't have to answer to that
<btami> jcater: what do you think about "    /n" is a real content in our XML files (gfd, grd,...) ?
<nickr> jamest: I aws just entertained by your anecdote
<jcater> btami: if you are only ever outputting xml, then no
<jcater> but I was leaving the option open to output more than that
<jcater> btw, if we don't want the \n's
<jcater> then the patch isn't necessary
<jcater> as there is already a stripContent or such flag in the xmlElements hash
<jcater> we just need to set that for the Layout tags
<btami> aha, but passthru isn't a layout tag :)
<jcater> ah, true
<btami> so i'v failed with simplereport wizard (text.xsl)
<btami> that was the reason i looked into GContent
<btami> maybe we have to make xmlElements for 'simple' layout, and 'mailmerge' layout
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<Arturas> Hello
<btami> hello Arturas
<jcater> anyone know of a good place to get gtk themes?
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<Chipaca> other than gtk.themes.org?
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<jcater> oops
<Chipaca> jcater: other than gtk.themes.org?
<jcater> that'll work
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<nickr> ~hrm, is there a way to get emacs to show what object and method you're in in python mode?
<Chipaca> jcater: about the reaming error, no, it seems to ocurr even with some of the samples from cvs (this is with a current gnue from your cvs)
<jcater> reaming error?
<Chipaca> you know, something like your foo is in my bar and your bar is in my foo or something like that
<jcater> how are you triggering that message?
<jcater> I've never seen it
<jcater> is it a specific function you are calling that triggers it
<jcater> or a certain trigger
<Chipaca> nope, when accessing the db
<Chipaca> it's in pgsql's extension triggers (or something like that, I'm no longer fresh on the error, but I just peeked at the irc logs and saw you asked something after I left last time)
<Chipaca> so I though I'd just err muddle things up a bit
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<jamest> jcater: old error of mine
<jamest> meant really bad thing happened that should never have been triggered
<jamest> it's not in our cvs anymore IIRC
<Chipaca> agh
<Chipaca> ok, I'll check it at home tonight and report in full tomorrow
<jcater> something y'all have done is triggering it
<jcater> I've never seen it triggered before
<jcater> jamest: iirc, it's still there
<jcater> but like you said, it's in a place that is never triggered
<Chipaca> jcater: as I say, AFAIR it ocurred with one of the samples too, but I'm probably wrong if you're so sure
<Chipaca> it happens on my sid (python 2.2) box, not here in woody (python 2.1)
<jcater> if you can reproduce in one of the samples, let us know
<Chipaca> will do
<jcater> I've just never seen it
<jcater> doesn't mean it doesn't happen :)
<Chipaca> btw, for some reason putting global foo; import foo in the OnStartup doesn't seem to work here; have you tested it?
<Chipaca> or is it a "should work" thing?
<jcater> it's an "it works for me" thing
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<jcater> I'll test again soon
<jcater> and put a sample in cvs
<StyXman> hi alll
<jcater> hi
<Chipaca> jcater: thanks
<Chipaca> StyXman: coffee?
<StyXman> yes!
<StyXman> Chipaca: are you gonna make some?
<Chipaca> StyXman: it is in the making
<StyXman> ah, greit
<StyXman> gnue guys: teo little questions...
<StyXman> a) what if forms.test for?
<StyXman> b) nevermind
<StyXman> but a) is still there...
<jcater> um
<jcater> I forget what a) is
<jcater> something someone else was doing
<Chipaca> cofee://fsl
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<Chipaca> is there a way to abort a page switch?
<Chipaca> i.e. the guy clicked on a different page but he left this one in an illegal state
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<jcater> you could do a form.setFocus(some widget on the bad page)
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<Chipaca> ok...
<Chipaca> another question: why can't I pass an entry into a function and have it work?
<Chipaca> hmm, let me expand that
<Chipaca> I can pass form objects to a function and some will work (e.g. block.processRollback()), but others won't (e.g. entry = foo)
<Chipaca> jamest: btw, the trigger library thing isn't working for me :(
Action: psu is away: church meeting
<Chipaca> jamest: heh, no, it's the error you told me about :)
<Arturas> bye
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<Chipaca> jamest: it's in GFLibrary not GFParser, but still :)
<ra3vat_> hi all
<ra3vat_> does navigator work?
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<ra3vat_> DB000:     GRootObj.GRootObj.__init__(self,'processes',GNParser.getXMLelements)
<StyXman> hi again
<ra3vat_> DB000: TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 4 arguments (3 given)
<ra3vat_> gives me that error
<jcater> ra3vat_: do you have the latest common/ ?
<jamest> agh!!!!!
<jamest> hang on
<Chipaca> jamest: me?
<jamest> ra3vat_
<Chipaca> ok
<ra3vat_> jcater: just before test i've updated everything
<Chipaca> I thought maybe you were telepathic and were going to answer my question re DB000: AttributeError: GFImportItem instance has no attribute 'addTrigger'
<Chipaca> before I even asked it :)
<jamest> ra3vat_: cvs update now
<StyXman> form parameters are not available @ on-startup trigger time.
<StyXman> niether work as datasources conditions.
<StyXman> any hints?
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<ra3vat_> jamest: now it starts then raises error when open a form from navigator
<jamest> error please
<ra3vat_> DB000:   File "/usr/local/src/cvs/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/uidrivers/wx/UIdriver.py", line
<ra3vat_> 371, in activateForm
<ra3vat_> DB000:     self.splash.Raise()
<ra3vat_> DB000: AttributeError: GFUserInterface instance has no attribute 'splash'
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<jamest> wtf!?!
<jcater> ra3vat_: I think the answer to your question is "yes, navigator is broken" :)
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> does navigator short circuit the normal form startup
<jcater> jamest: welcome back :)
<jcater> jamest: somewhat, yes
<jamest> ok
<jamest> just a sec
<jamest> i'll add a check for it
<jamest> oooo
<jamest> before I do
<jamest> i had two options here
<jamest> 1 ) keep the splash on top for 3 seconds 
<jamest> 2 ) drop the splashscren the moment the form was ready for processing
<jamest> it's 1 line of code either way
<jamest> I did 1 as on a fast system the splashscreen wouldn't have been up any time at all
<jamest> but what would peopler prefer
<jcater> jamest: navigator is supposed to always suppress the splash
<jamest> i mean in forms
<jcater> ah
<jcater> 3 sec
<jcater> since no one else will answer
<jcater> :)
<jamest> jcater wins
<jamest> ra3vat_: should be fixed
<ra3vat_> thanks
<jamest> i can't really test this stuff btw
<jamest> my tree is fried for now
<jamest> so if I typo I apologize in advance
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<ajmitch> hi
<Chipaca> jamest: If yuo ask me I'd rather it was up 3 seconds or when the form came up, whichever came last :=)
<jcater> ajmitch: greetings
<ra3vat_> DB000:   File "/usr/local/src/cvs/gnue/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/uidrivers/wx/UIdriver.py", line
<ra3vat_> 370, in activateForm
<ra3vat_> DB000:     if hasattrib(self,'splash'):
<ra3vat_> DB000: NameError: global name 'hasattrib' is not defined
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> on that line replace
<jamest> hasattrib
<jamest> with hasattr
<jamest> and try again
<ra3vat_> ok, now is better
<jamest> i'll fix cvs in  a second
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<Chipaca> jcater: form.setFocus(widget) changes the focus back to the page, but it then changes back to the page the user clicked on
<Chipaca> jcater: i.e. with debug-level set to 5 I get
<Chipaca> one "changing focus" when I clicked on the page tag, and two when I press "Cancel"
<Chipaca> (on a popup that notifies me of the error in my ways)
<Chipaca> s/popup/dialog box/
<Chipaca> gah
<Chipaca> dialog, just a plain dialog
<Chipaca> I'm getting my terminology muxed ip
<Chipaca> One question, shouldn't the pre-focusout trigger get called *before* the actual switch of focus?
<jamest> ya
<jamest> i would think
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<jbailey> Anyone have a public gnue site of some sort I can show off to my boss?
<ajmitch> eh? gnue site?
<ajmitch> you mean dcl, or you thinking that gnue is web-based?
<jbailey> web based full gnue site.
<ajmitch> umm
Action: ajmitch doesn't think anyone is really using gnue as web-based
<jbailey> Hmmm.
<jbailey> I should probably just install it then, shouldn't I.
<ajmitch> would be a good idea if you want to maintain the debs ;)
<ajmitch> the main forms client is wxpython/pygtk based
<ajmitch> and designer uses wxpython
<revDeke>  a month ago i could have shown you a cool demo
<revDeke> basically had you install forms locally
<revDeke> and execute over ssh to my backend
<revDeke> but ssh2 screws that up :)
<revDeke> at least temporarily
Nick change: esands_ -> esands
<jbailey> Ah, okay - My boss is asking me whether we can use it for a simple PO system.  I think it's all good for that, yes?  Like it's stable, generally won't eat data and all that?
<jbailey> Backend would presummably one of our Oracle DBs or mysql or something like that.  Clients are all win32.
<jcater> lol... haven't had it eat data yet :)
<jcater> jbailey: I think it'll be fine
<jcater> as long as you don't have a user
<jcater> named dneighbo
<jcater> if that's the case, everything seems to fall apart
<jbailey> *lol*
<jbailey> how are the screens published to the client?
Action: jcater was only semi-joking
<revDeke> well i guess that means the good news is
<revDeke> im not sure its EVER eaten my data
<revDeke> its not accepted it before
<revDeke> but never eaten it
<revDeke> it has eaten all my X resources before
<revDeke> which was well interesting ;)
<ajmitch> screens are either supplied locally, or can be grabbed over http, iirc :)
<revDeke> if anyone says they changed the 'layout' system be very afraid to run old forms ;)
<revDeke> ajmitch: they can be grabbed over any transport supported by python
<revDeke> http/https/ftp/etc
<ajmitch> ah ok
<ajmitch> uses urlOpen() ?
<jcater> ajmitch: or the python equivalent, yip
<ajmitch> i think that is the python function
<jcater> gnue-reports --list-filters now works 
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> sorry, it
<ajmitch> 's urlopen()
<ajmitch> cool
<jbailey> Nice, thanks.
<jbailey> I've gotten go ahead to play with gnue during work hours, sweet.
<ajmitch> yay!
<jbailey> Now if only I could get paid to abuse cw during work hours too.
<jbailey> But alas, my dream job is not yet here. =)
<ajmitch> such a pity...
<jcater> cvs update -Pd
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<ra3vat_> jcater: my OO (1.0) is aborted with Developers-Guide.sxw rev > 1.1?
<jcater> we are using build 643
<jcater> as it supports some more stuff
<ajmitch> ooh
<jcater> the PDF is up to date
Action: ajmitch is just reading the pdf
Action: jcater dcc's ajmitch some Tylenol
<ra3vat_> thanks, reading pdf now
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Action: dtm radios revDeke
<dtm> attention revDeke, come in.  do you read me?
<ra3vat_> jcater: example for setParemeter written as # Set the runtime parameter "company" to "101"
<ra3vat_> company = form.getParameter("company","101")
<jcater> oops
<ra3vat_> page 49 of pdf
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<ariel_> jcater: if i run grcvs --list-filters without supllying a grd file, it complains that no report file is specified
<jcater> yes
<jcater> because filters are specific to the report type
<ariel_> uhmm
<ariel_> i got
Action: psu is back (gone 03:35:38)
<psu> nite
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<ariel_> \quit "good night"
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<Chipaca> hi all
<Chipaca> can I pass a paremeter to a trigger?
<jcater> no
<Chipaca> :(
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> jcater: it's about cancelling the pageflip
<Chipaca> jcater: I need some way of saying form.setFocus(da_widget), without writing one trigger per page
<Chipaca> can you think of a way?
Action: Chipaca would do it in xml if the xml parser was up to it
<jcater> um
<jcater> you completely lost me
<Chipaca> good! (=:]
<Chipaca> where?
<jcater> <Chipaca> jcater: it's about cancelling the pageflip
<jcater> <Chipaca> jcater: I need some way of saying form.setFocus(da_widget), without writing one trigger per page
<jcater> <Chipaca> can you think of a way?
<jcater> * Chipaca would do it in xml if the xml parser was up to it
<ajmitch> you want a default widget set on each page?
<jcater> take your pick
<Chipaca> lol
<Chipaca> no
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> explain please :)
<Chipaca> I need to go back to the page the user was on if she forgot to fill something in
<ajmitch> ah
<Chipaca> or
<jcater> the goal was to allow triggers to return a true or false
<jcater> based on success/failure
<ajmitch> so you need to store the previous page visited?
<jcater> so if a failure was returned
<jcater> everything stops
<Chipaca> well, actually, if she forgot to commit or rollback, there's this popup that says "commit/rollback/cancel" except that the cancel thing isn't getting done (same problem)
<Chipaca> yeah, but the page has already changed, even in pre-focusout
<ajmitch> hmm
<jcater> then that's a bug w/page changing
Action: Chipaca feels like ripping out the whole wx thing and doing it over
<Chipaca> the feeling subsides
<Chipaca> :)
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<ajmitch> you don't like the wxpython ui driver?
<ajmitch> or is this some other wx stuff? :)
<Chipaca> no, it's the wxpython ui driver
<Chipaca> (or maybe it's wxpython per se, dunno)
<Chipaca> the worst bug is the widget-seems-to-get-focus-but-doesn't
<Chipaca> that confuses the hell out of people
<jcater> I'm not getting that one any more
<ajmitch> wxpython 2.2 has a few issues, i guess :)
<ajmitch> anyone working on the pygtk driver?
<Chipaca> jcater: not the one with multiple rows, the one where you point at an entry but just on the border so the cursor isn't acutally I-shaped, click, and the | cursor appears in the entry, but the focus isn't there
<Chipaca> it's amazingly simple to trigger that one by accident
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I didn't even know about it
<jcater> all the time I've ever run forms
<jcater> I've never hit that bug
<Chipaca> lol
<Chipaca> I think we put it in dcl some time back
Action: ajmitch volunteers to play with the pygtk driver next week, for something to do
<ajmitch> i'm sorry, but wxpython just looks ugly on my gnome 2 desktop ;)
<jcater> I'd much rather see a Win32 driver written 
<ajmitch> so how is PAPO going?
<jcater> in case anyone cares :)
<dtm> aloha fewlz   what's the url for phpforms?
<jcater> file://dev/null ?
Action: jcater hides
<Chipaca> ajmitch: we're releasing something usable soon (as in november)
<ajmitch> jcater: i don't know the win32 api 
<ajmitch> dtm: www.gnuenterprise.org?
<Chipaca> jcater: you meant file:///dev/null
<ajmitch> Chipaca: great!
<ajmitch> Chipaca: will it be in english? :)
<Chipaca> ajmitch: nope :)
<ajmitch> a pity
<Chipaca> ajmitch: but well the stuff is in english, just not the user-visible labels
<ajmitch> that's the important part ;)
<dtm> ajmitch: negative
Action: dtm googles
<ajmitch> dtm: why would there be an URL for it?
<ajmitch> only one i can think of is an url to gnue's cvs
<dtm> ajmitch: what?  why wouldn't there be?
<dtm> ajmitch: that's all i've found
<dtm> all gnue subprojects have unique urls
<dtm> so far
<Chipaca> dtm: file:///home/john/src/cvs/gnue/phpforms/
<dtm> Chipaca: cool, thanks :)
Action: Chipaca scratches
<ajmitch> it's just another forms implementation
<ajmitch> i don't think anyone has bothered to write up info about it yet
<ajmitch> http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/phpforms/
<ajmitch> perhaps we should get onto psu about that ;)
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Action: Chipaca sticks StyXman onto the run-the-pre-focus-out-trigger-before-changing-the-page bug
<ajmitch> you the boss? :)
<dtm> Chipaca: do you have any interest in DCL engineering?
<Chipaca> "DCL engineering"?
<Chipaca> ENOPARSE, try again
<jbailey> It's a php app.  You can't engineer those, can you? =)
<Chipaca> php U engineering == ĝ
<Chipaca> err
<Chipaca> that should be an upside-down U :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> hello jeff :)
Action: chillywilly is away: Hitting the crack pipe.
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:00:01)
<Chipaca> chillywilly: out of crack?
<chillywilly> I thought I was set as being "away"
<chillywilly> there's doesn't seem to be an easy way to check it unless I /msg myself
<Chipaca> your client probably puts 'away' in your status bar, no?
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> I am using xchat
Action: chillywilly is away: test
<Chipaca> here's an apt-get, kid, get yourself a better irc client
<chillywilly> I like xchat
<chillywilly> what's wrong with xchat?
<chillywilly> Chipaca: and how old are you anyway?
<dtm> Chipaca: ok i'm afraid we're going to have to stick to English for this conversation :)
<dtm> Chipaca: i have no idea what you said.
<dtm> Chipaca: do you or do you not like DCL?
<dtm> Chipaca: and are you or are you not interested in engineering on it as a GNUe project
<chillywilly> php intersected with engineering is the empty set is what he said
<chillywilly> afaict
<Chipaca> dtm: I'm afraid I have no spare time ATM
<dtm> oic
<dtm> how brilliant
<Chipaca> dtm: and I don't know php
<ajmitch> dtm: i would if i knew php! :)
<chillywilly> pside down U is intersection in set notation right?
<chillywilly> er, upsidedown
<Chipaca> chillywilly: correct
<ajmitch> chillywilly: yup
<dtm> Chipaca: are you not working on phpforms?
<Chipaca> dtm: no
<dtm> Chipaca: oic
<dtm> ok sorry :)
<chillywilly> ajmitch: php is not worth learning when there's psp ;)
<Chipaca> dtm: I'm working on plain forms :)
<dtm> chillywilly: psp huh
<dtm> havne't heard of that
<ajmitch> chillywilly: which psp do you mean?
<chillywilly> python server pages
<ajmitch> i know of about 3 different psp products
<ajmitch> 2 of which are python, one is perl server pages :)
<chillywilly> eeek!
<chillywilly> not perl!
<chillywilly> nooooo!
<ajmitch> the only one which i am familiar with using, is the psp which is part of webware
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> this is what I am referring to
<dtm> chillywilly: oh yes, in this crazy universe some of you are in where you require zero compatibility with the outside world and instead reimplement the world one coordinate at a time, yes there's not much value in learning php.  :)
<dtm> hee hee
<dtm> in that case, it is indeed handy
Action: chillywilly knows php
<chillywilly> for the record
<ajmitch> chillywilly: so hack dcl
<dtm> of course for one who does not code or design at the speed of light
<dtm> .....
<chillywilly> dtm: are you talking smack?
<dtm> or who doesn't already know everything, and hence requires multiple points of view and multiple intelligences, then one must integrate one's code once in a while
<dtm> but my skills are not up to speed with the gnue team!  so i submit!
<dtm> hhehe
<Chipaca> ok, I'm off to the lug meet
<dtm> derek has swallowed his pride!
Action: Chipaca waves
<dtm> and maybe a couple burritos
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<dtm> and has forged ahead on core php apps for the good of the whole
<dtm> such as acclite and dcl
<dtm> derek is a shining example to us all -- indeed, truly, he is DA MASTA
<chillywilly> dtm: I am half kidding about php, there's nothing wrong with it really...but yo may continue to rant onward
<dtm> chillywilly: lol
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah i know!
<dtm> chillywilly: i'm sure it's architecturally inferior from the perspective many of you have, oriented around original core engineering
<ajmitch> chillywilly: i just go & get a coffee when he's like this, and hope that he's done when i return :)
<dtm> it's highly capable as a presentation/UI
<chillywilly> http://trioweb.sf.net
<dtm> ajmitch: you must have a lot of money and time!
<dtm> ;]
<ajmitch> hehe
<dtm> i have collected some urls of discussions written by high level system architects and coders, who like php
<chillywilly> woops, try http://sf.net/projects/trioweb/
<dtm> because unlike the majority, they implement it correctly
<dtm> they use abstraction layers and other clever ideas
<dtm> dewd even I can see that stuff like postnuke is a rat's nest
<dtm> also i have discovered that php is highly tolerant of mistakes or suboptimal practices
<chillywilly> it's a pretty dead project though as I am converting to GNUe
<dtm> see, these things should be embraced properly
<ajmitch> you are?
<dtm> not chastized for what the kiddies do with it
<dtm> that's all!
<chillywilly> dtm: I was saying as a language I prefer python, it's a personal choice
<chillywilly> I have written code in both
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah i know, that's what i was saying too
<dtm> chillywilly: so what are you working on lately homeslice
<chillywilly> GNU Sim
<dtm> see
<chillywilly> c++ discrete even simulation library, also gnu common c++
<dtm> i have all this crappy food here
<chillywilly> thread-safe iostreams
<dtm> like Safeway brand beef and noodles
<dtm> which ideally i really dont wanna eat
<dtm> so my strategy is to wait until i'm hungry enough, and hence increasingly motivated to eat it.
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<chillywilly> is it that bad?
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<dtm> it's crazy enough that it JUST MIGHT work
<ajmitch> that strategy produces suboptimal work performance
<dtm> chillywilly: sure, thread-safe iostreams are perfectly fine... taste just like chicken
<chillywilly> well it's not too easy to write a wrapper around std::[io]stream
<chillywilly> but I am using them in the library of mine
<chillywilly> they're still in a half finished state
<chillywilly> as it is ostreams only ;)
<chillywilly> no istreams
<chillywilly> or stringstreams
<chillywilly> YET
<chillywilly> but it is in commoncpp2 cvs
<chillywilly> just ask dyfet ;)
<chillywilly> I go in spurts
<chillywilly> not a whole lot of free time
<chillywilly> I akso wrote an ODL parser for the appserver but that was a while ago now
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<derek> chillywilly: tell crazymike i have some people downloading his shn's
<derek> ie im spreading the word for him :)
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> btw, Goran is ignoring him right now
<chillywilly> and he's kinda pissed
<derek> dtm: before you ask i see your mails, havent read them yet, will respond when i do, playing with kids right now so spotty :)
<chillywilly> if you notice
<chillywilly> he has pulled the Holiday From You demo mp3s
<chillywilly> cause some chick told him that Goran didn't want them to be public
<chillywilly> he tried to contact him bt he's ignoring him
<derek> jcater: i have two new quotes for you
<chillywilly> also his gf was supposed to do the Gufs and Goran's new band's website
<chillywilly> that didn't wotk out either
<chillywilly> and mike was asking him wtf is up
<chillywilly> they probably got pissed and are now ignoring him
<derek>   I'm not into working out. My philosophy is no pain, no pain.
<derek> I'm in shape. Round is a shape.
<chillywilly> I hope Goran isn't starting to turn into a butthead
<jbailey> derek: I hope you're not round.
<jbailey> Spherical would be far..  healthier.
<derek> and one master harold might enjoy:
<derek> One out of every three Americans is suffering from some form of mental
<derek>     illness. Think of two of your best friends. If they are OK, then it
<derek>     must be you.
Action: chillywilly is cylindrical ;)
<jcater> rofl
Action: jcater is, um, donut shaped
<jbailey> Mmmm...  donut.
<jbailey> Are you a /vegan/ donut?
Action: jbailey drools.
<jcater> vegan?
<jcater> I don't allow such monstrocities in my house
<jcater> pork fat rules!
<jbailey> Which do you consider the monstrocity.  The vegan, or the vegan donut? =)
<jcater> vegan donut
<jcater> of course
<jcater> I don't think a vegan would be tastey either
<jcater> I imagine they'd have a low fat content
<chillywilly> tastes like chicken ;)
<chillywilly> low protein too
<chillywilly> ;)
<dtm> derek: you do your thing, brutha
<dtm> derek: we dont wanna mix bidness with family too much :)
<dtm> crazymike has shn's?  one would HAVE to be crazy to keep shn's.
<dtm> most suitable
<chillywilly> uh, well he's sing flac now ;)
<chillywilly> using
<chillywilly> which is a Free lossless audio format that also supports 24-bit audio
<chillywilly> and you will be bitch slapped by the tapers if you ask fori mo3s
<chillywilly> mp3s
<derek> jcater: re the 1 of 3 ...
<derek> im thinking jcater, and two developers
<derek> wonder who will get the short straw and be 'normal'
<jcater> jcater and two developers?
<jcater> are they cute females?
<jcater> I can get into that
Action: derek having peeked into masterh and jcater thinks the third fellow is the normal one...
<derek> rock pillar will be back in town for two nights this week
<derek> woot!
<derek> and one of them is about 3 miles from hear for $10 door charge
<chillywilly> dtm: in fact most of the text files that are distributed with .shns or .flacs specifically ask you NOT to encode into mp3 ;)
<derek> chillywilly: they FREAK if you make mp3s
<derek> darn shn folks are more nazi than free software people :)
<chillywilly> yes ;)
<derek> they even have a 'custom' gnutella
<derek> to 'control' the trading of shn's
<jcater> shn?
Action: jcater is out of touch
<chillywilly> yea, I hope that move to flac though, there has been talk
<chillywilly> jcater: lossless audio format
<derek> http://www.furthurnet.com
<chillywilly> a compressed .wav file basically
<derek> jcater: it is a 'shorten' file
<derek> bacially a compressed wav
<derek> as chillywilly stated :)
<derek> the 'tape traders'
<derek> use it to trade live shows
<jcater> bah
<jcater> all my sound can be done with the BASIC "sound" command
<chillywilly> they bring their little mini disks or DAT stuff and tape the shows ;P
Action: derek thinks jcater is thinking why trade music when you have video... girls moaning is only so exciting ;)
<chillywilly> and mp3s are satan spawn becase it is loassy compression
<chillywilly> according to them
<derek> chillywilly: well they have valid points to a degree
<derek> they just go a little insane at times :)
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah, because they're fucked in the head
<chillywilly> sure, but the human ear is only so good ;)
<derek> chillywilly: i agree
<derek> the debate is lossless...
<derek> well once you go wav to ogg and trade the ogg
<derek> you shouldnt be going ogg 2 wav 2 ogg 2 wav etc...
<chillywilly> I don't care either way, but I don't go out of my way to piss them off and encode into mp3
<derek> i.e. the quality degrades not by 'copying' from one machine to antoher
<chillywilly> yea
<derek> but rather when 're-encoding'
<chillywilly> that's their argument
<dtm> they're basically paranoid about the EVENTUAL loss of quality in case some mind-baffling idiot decides to downsample or convert all their compressed audio, as if that somehow reduces the number of high quality encodings in the world
<chillywilly> they don't want shitty mp3s floating around
<derek> but regardless most of it is prog rock stuff i have no interest in
<chillywilly> derek: prog rock?
<derek> i would play the shn game if i found decent tape traders
<dtm> and they're protecting the allegedly lossless (it's inherently lossy due to the human ear, playback equipment, and the fact that most of em are live recordings anyway!) as if they're protecting a species against genocide.
<derek> progressive rock
<chillywilly> derek: did you check out the Gufs and/or Goran?
<derek> chillywilly: i might see if i can get gstreamer working
<dtm> so that's all i gotta say about it
<dtm> it's utterly pointless
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<derek> if so, i might ask pillar if i can tape off their soundboard with my laptop
<jcater> I have a kickass screenshot, dudes:   http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/login.png
<jcater> check it out
Action: dtm salutes jcater's audio techniques
<chillywilly> dtm: I see their point and respect their rules, HD space is cheap ;)
<dtm> BASIC 'sound'
<dtm> chillywilly: not _that_ cheap!
<dtm> chillywilly: nor is bandwidth
<derek> jcater: i dont get the screenshot
<dtm> they're wrecking the economics of the public Internet for their belligerance
<jcater> derek: hint... it's the reports client, not forms
<derek> how would one tell that?
<jcater> if forms is installed on the machine, you can use it's interface for prompting for stuff like logins
<dtm> chillywilly: i had an attitude showdown with one of em once, who's an expert in audio and perceptual encoding, and he didn't come close to staying rational.  he basically walked away muttering.
<jcater> derek: esp
<chillywilly> dtm: you can always dl them then unpack them and make a CD then remove them from your HD
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<derek> jcater: cool, but i mean from the screenshot how would someone know that
<derek> oh i get it esp :)
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah, i already do that :)
<derek> i was thinking you were saying especially (abbreviated) and was waiting for the rest
<chillywilly> dtm: why am I not surprised that you got into an argument with someone? ;)
Action: derek bows before jcater
<derek> oh master of bug fixes many thanks
Action: derek shoudl test that it is fixed first i guess
<derek> will you have time to fight gsd tonight?
<derek> re: program vs xslt?
<jcater> I will try
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<dtm> chillywilly: yeah, coz he was all blowing steam
<dtm> :)
<dtm> jcater fixed bugs?  
Action: dtm bows to jcater
<dtm> jcater: it is the good fight.
<jcater> fyi everyone
<jcater> jamest and I are starting to think about another release
<jcater> this is your warning
<jcater> get those forms tested
<chillywilly> oooooh
<jcater> obviously, we still have a few things we're working on
<jcater> but this serves as advanced warning
<jcater> no whining this time ;)
<drochaid> why is no one bouncing in here?
Action: jcater bounces from wall to wall
Action: drochaid spins The Bar - Kays 
<drochaid> ounce your head to the beat and don't stop till you drop off your feat
<drochaid> +b
<drochaid> shake your rump, to the funk
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<drochaid> bow wow wow yipee yo yipee yay
Action: jcater does a funky head dance thingy
<drochaid> :)
<drochaid> just as long as it's not stopping you writing the developer docs ;)
<drochaid> hmm, I *could* listen to wopn ...
<drochaid> or I could just keep funking :)
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<DiegoWS> hello
<DiegoWS> i little question.
<DiegoWS> i need implement a database system with postgre with fault tolerance. can i do this with two mirror servers?
<DiegoWS> ??
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<DiegoWS> i need implement a database system with postgre with fault tolerance. can i do this with two mirror servers?
<jcater> DiegoWS: have you looked at http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgreplication/projdisplay.php
<DiegoWS> no. i m going there now. thanks.
<jcater> http://dbbalancer.sourceforge.net/ also seems to be somewhat working
<jcater> I have not used any of these yet
<jcater> just some things I've found in my research
<ajmitch> greetings
<jcater> dbbalancer looks particularly interesting
<DiegoWS> thanks.
<jcater> ajmitch: werd up
<ajmitch> hacking packages
<jcater> that's two words
<ajmitch> sigh
<ajmitch> i try so hard
Action: ajmitch apt-get updates
<DiegoWS> thanks jcater. dbbalancer is great
<DiegoWS> i need two server worging sync and dbbalance do this.
<DiegoWS> thanks. bye!!!!!!!!!!1
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Action: chillywilly is away: Packers
<jcater> packers?
<jcater> what a pitiful reason not to GNUe
<dtm> DiegoWS: i had heard of another system too
<dtm> jcater: no kidding
Action: dtm thinks
Action: ajmitch decides not to comment on the merits of the game
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<dtm> DiegoWS: it comes from anteil.com
<dtm> DiegoWS: it's part of their CRM
<dtm> cna't find it
<ajmitch> gah, crappy debian dependencies
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<dtm> isn't it called innodb?
<chillywilly> all who talk smack about the packers are little beotches
<jcater> btie me
<jcater> bite me even
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Action: chillywilly bties jcater
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> is that the same as tying me up
<jcater> using a Binary algorithm?
<chillywilly> yuuuup
<chillywilly> I repeatedly ct you in half
<chillywilly> and tie the ends togeether
<chillywilly> it's like a binary search
<willieb> does anyone here use GNUe forms/designer under Gentoo Linux?
<chillywilly> nope, we are debian snobs
<jcater> it should be perfectly usable
<jcater> but like chillywilly said, most developers here prefer debian
<willieb> Yes, someone submitted ebuilds to bugs.gentoo.org, only problem is that they don't include a gnue.conf, or set up paths correctly
<jcater> eh?
<jcater> url?
<willieb> database% gnue-designer 
<willieb> Traceback (mlst recent call last):
<willieb>   File "/usr/bin/gnue-designer", line 40, in ?
<willieb>     from  gnue.designer.Designer import *
<willieb> ImportError: No module named gnue.designer.Designer
<willieb> database% 
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> how can we get ahold of the ebuild sourcE?
<willieb> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9593
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<jcater> um
<jcater> as much as I love debian
<jcater> gentoo portage is based on python
<jcater> that's just too kickass
<willieb> Aye :)
<willieb> which package contains /etc/gnue.conf?
<jcater> common contains some samples
<jcater> I don't know who did the ebuilds
<jcater> but it looks wrong :)
<willieb> I like it when other people are wrong, not me!
<ajmitch> heh
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> these are off
<jcater> I may be able to tweak them into working
<jcater> but I don't have a gentoo system laying around
Action: jcater needs to get a "test OS" system though
<ajmitch> sigh this computer feels sluggish
<jcater> ajmitch: send it my way
<willieb> what spec is the hardware?
<jcater> I'm sure it'll work for my test system :)
<ajmitch> ahtlon xp 1800+, 512MB ram
<jcater> yup
<jcater> that'll do
<willieb> ppphhh - sluggish you say?  my machine here does very nicely  p2@400, 256MB
<Mr_You> jcater: removable HD do?  or multiple partitions?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I'd rather have a separate machine
<jcater> as I would like to test on other OS's
<jcater> but I sure as hell don't want to code the fixes on them
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater needs break down and buy VMWare
<Mr_You> heh
<Mr_You> hmm
<Mr_You> UML  would work for multiple distros I guess
<jcater> I wish plex86 were further along
<Mr_You> linux distros
<ajmitch> perhaps it's the stuff i'm running
<ajmitch> but harddrive access seems to be slow (have to change filesystem sometime too)
<jcater> ajmitch: yeah, I have an Athlon 1700 at work
<jcater> and the harddrive access was worse
<jcater> than on my 800Mhz Duron
<jcater> I dunno why
<ajmitch> this tends to swap a bit
<jcater> I played w/hdparm and got much better performance
<jcater> but still not where it should be imho
<ajmitch> perhaps i should get another 512MB & turn swap off
<ajmitch> yeah, hdparm reports reasonable performance
<Mr_You> swap off or no swap is askin for trouble ;-)
<ajmitch> Mr_You: with 1GB of RAM?
<jcater> geeze!
<jcater> and you're swapping?
<jcater> you must be running OpenOffice AND mozilla AT THE SAME TIME
<ajmitch> jcater: no, i said i only have 512
<jcater> ah
<ajmitch> at the moment
<Mr_You> well.. swap space on server is abosolutely mandatory.. minimum of a gig... if its a desktop minimum of 256MB
<Mr_You> even with 1GB 
<Mr_You> even if it only uses 1MB of that swap.
<ajmitch> why?
<Mr_You> because you never know what app or whatever might have a memory leak or hog resources or what not.. its just a safety net.. if you have diskspace problems thats a whole other issue.
<jcater> wow
<jcater> these Gentoo ebuilds are way off
<ajmitch> no, if i have swap enabled, then it just delays the death a little
<Mr_You> delays the death to the point you can intervene?  ;-)
<ajmitch> hardly
<Mr_You> no it does
<Mr_You> I just never understood why people wanted so little swap.
<ajmitch> because on a normal system it's on the same disk as all the apps, and causes lots of disk access?
<Mr_You> not if you have plenty of ram ;-)
<ajmitch> s/normal/normal desktop/
<willieb> are you seeing anything in the ebuilds in particular, or just in general?
<Mr_You> In the past I increased solaris boxes swap space many times cause people configured machines with little swap. ;-)
<jcater> willieb: in general
<Mr_You> unfortunately swap files, cause not worth adding a partition.
<jcater> e.g., common is not dependent on DCL or wxPython
<jcater> and the Common ebuild doesn't set up default /etc/gnue stuff
<Mr_You> I dunno if linux allows swap files.. which if it does.. swap size doesn't matter so much cause you can just add some.
<Mr_You> but I'd rather just go ahead and give 256MB with disk space being so cheap
<jcater> plus there needs to be some "sed"s in all the tools
<jcater> to adjust the bin/ scripts that are created
<jcater> to replace the explicit references to /usr/local/gnue
<jcater> hmm
<Mr_You> If I'm building a Sun box with multiple processors and say 4 gigs of ram with the expectation to expand, I'll create 2GB swap.
<jcater> I wonder if a Dual P166 would be enough for a "test" system?
<jcater> put gentoo, freebsd, redhat, et al on it
<Mr_You> but then thats a big ole server.
<Mr_You> jcater: hell yeah
<Mr_You> jcater: actually.. I dunno... might want to be sure the chipset is supported.
<willieb> aye, a dual 166 would work, would be a few days installing though
<jcater> Mr_You: only problem is it's an ALR Revolution
<jcater> it's based on an INtel chipset that is poorly supported
<jcater> I could not get debian to install on it using the 2.2 kernel
<Mr_You> the only multiproc pentiums I ever admined was NCRs about a year plus ago hhe
<jcater> it'd lock up
<Mr_You> big ole machines
<willieb> need and remember to boot with a i586 image though... that one's caught me out before :(
<Mr_You> jcater: forget it then
<Mr_You> too much trouble
<Mr_You> for little gain
<jcater> Mr_You: I finally got Debian on this machine, BUT i had to install on a separate machine and swap hard drives :)
<jcater> and I cna't use SMP
<jcater> but, damn
<jcater> I hate wasting this machine
<Mr_You> ouch
<jcater> my company gave like $25K - $30K for it back in the day
<jcater> it's our old SCO machine
<Mr_You> what is it?
<Mr_You> dual pentium?
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> back when they said you couldn't do "dual pentium" :)
<Mr_You> well if its free.. *shrug*
<Mr_You> shoot.. you could probably find some desktops to use.
<Mr_You> maybe?
<jcater> not at work
<jcater> we have all available old desktops as LTSP nodes now :)
<jcater> really quite cool
<jcater> I haven't bought a new desktop in like 12-18 months
<jcater> and we've expanded quite a bit
<jcater> well, except for my new Athlon, btu that doesn't count:)
<jcater> I'm not a user
<jcater> and I approve the purchases
<jcater> ;)
<Mr_You> cool
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I have a boat-load of 486s
<jcater> but that'd be painful too :)
<Mr_You> knoppix seems to be the best CD based distro.. but I'm biased to debian ;-)
<ajmitch> everyone is here :)
<Mr_You> well 486DXs are actually pretty useful..
<jcater> oooo
<jcater> do you know the power consumption comparisons between a 486DX
<jcater> and a Pentium 200
<jcater> ?
<Mr_You> no
<jcater> as I'm using the latter as a firewall
<jcater> but have several 486s lying around
<Mr_You> make a cluster.
<ajmitch> can probably still cook an egg on a p200
<jcater> ajmitch: yeah
<jcater> but I've heard pentium-class power supplies are more efficient
<jcater> so I dunno
<jcater> I can't get a good answer
<ajmitch> hmm
<jcater> my inclination is that a Pentium *has* to use more power
<jcater> as it burns hotter
<ajmitch> atx power supplies?
<ajmitch> depends on the other parts, too
<jcater> I find that hard to believe though
<jcater> as I can use a much smaller wattage PS in a 486
<ajmitch> noisy & hot hard drives use much power
<jcater> than I can in a Pentium
<ajmitch> if you can, measure it
<jcater> eh?
<ajmitch> iirc you can get old power meter things to measure power consumption
<jcater> there's an idea
<ajmitch> they're not within the power company's tolerances to use as a house meter, so you might be able to pick one up
<jcater> I tried googling for a comparison
<jcater> but couldn't find anything
<derek> jcater the problem is i dont think you can go by 'output' per say
<derek> for example if i have a hotwater heater from 10 years ago and one from this year
<derek> likely the one from this year will burn 10 times hotter but be 80% more efficient
<jcater> yeah, I know that
<derek> obviously the sway in powersupply's wont be that drastic
<jcater> hmm
<derek> i think its probably about a wash
<jcater> well, this 486 has a 325W PS drawing 4.2 Amps
<ajmitch> derek: the newer one could still be hotter, but gets it's efficiency thru insulation
<willieb> a cheap multimeter from radioshack would soon tell you - hack up an old PC power lead, set the meter to AC amps and stick it inline?
<jcater> according to the sticker
<derek> this reminds me of old generator talk
<derek> people going i only need a 2500 watt generator for my stuff im only running a circular saw and a small nailer for compressor
<derek> BUT
Action: dtm washes derek's mouth out with degreaser
<derek> they always forget you have to calculate for 'surge' on initial draw of startup
Action: derek forgets the calc but its nearly twice the steady throughput
<dtm> well they just need to get a running start then
Action: derek would try to warn the guys and they would think i was trying to rip them off and sell them something bigger
<derek> but then.....
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> boom?
<derek> next day... hey when i fire up my second saw it cuts out and i have to restart...
<derek> and me is like ... 'duh'
<willieb> nature's way of telling you only to do one thing at once ;)
Action: chillywilly has a nice fluke meter
<chillywilly> hey derek how do you like our defense ;)
<willieb> clamp on ac/dc ammeter by any chance?
Action: derek likes the 14 points they have for me
<chillywilly> 14 - 0
<chillywilly> :)
<derek> miami is my defense on the 'bench'
<derek> they arent doing bad either
<chillywilly> and this is with a banged up Favre
<jcater> banged up?
<ajmitch> you talking about that pansy game again?
<jcater> the boys been playing w/him in the locker room again?
<chillywilly> yes he sprained his knee last game
<chillywilly> no he got sacked
<chillywilly> sprained his knee
<chillywilly> real men actually watch football ;)
<jcater> real men gnue
<chillywilly> suuuure
<jcater> ... in their underwear
<jcater> ... while scratching themselves
<chillywilly> aaah!
<chillywilly> plz!
<chillywilly> someonme poke out my eyes with a hot sick
<ajmitch> ah yes, that's what i'm doing now :)
<chillywilly> lol
<ajmitch> when's the next release planned for? how long we got for testing?
<jcater> if I had to estimate
<jcater> I'd say between 2 and 30 days
<ajmitch> hmm
<jcater> but that's only a guestimate
<jcater> I could be wrong
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> depends on how many bugs need fixed
<ajmitch> yay, setup-cvs.py doesn't generate docs
<ajmitch> TMPDIR is DBTOHTML_OUTPUT_DIR2117
<ajmitch> Using stylesheet: "/usr/lib/sgml/stylesheet/dsssl/docbook/cygnus/cygnus-both.dsl"
<ajmitch> Usage: db2html [filename.{sgml,xml}]
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> placement.gfd is broke
<jcater> what?
<jcater> placement was working for me an hour ago
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> i just did cvs update, ran setup-cvs.py
<jcater> bbiaf... trying a 486 as my firewall
<ajmitch> and tried placement.gfd with both gtk2 & wx drivers
<jcater> hmm
<ajmitch> masks.gfd also has some buglets with gtk2 drivere (i need to hack it next week)
Action: ajmitch will put stuff into dcl as required :)
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<Mr_You_> guess just me got disconnected
<Mr_You_> ahh there go my other servers
<Mr_You_> cable must have gone out
<chillywilly> w00t, I can record with gstreamer
<chillywilly> http://www.libertyetech.com/test.ogg
<ajmitch> heh
Action: ajmitch looks for an alternative to wxBell()
<chillywilly> try it again ajmitch ;)
<ajmitch> try what again?
<chillywilly> play my test.ogg
<chillywilly> dl it again
<chillywilly> now I just need to go to radio shack and get a 1/4 to 1/8 adapter
<chillywilly> and I can record the sermon on sunday mornings
<ajmitch> i never bothered to download it in the first place
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> well try it now plz :)
<ajmitch> as i was trying to fix the gtk2 driver
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> carry on then
<chillywilly> don't mind me and my shinannagins
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<ajmitch> right, so formAlert() needs fixed :)
<ajmitch> cool, that worked (setting status bar)
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<esands> Mr_You: with a 486 you might have PCI bus bandwidth issues. I know with the Soekris net4501 it has issues pushing large amounts of bandwidth though.  Then again for a home network its probably fine.  Another point is that P5 have a very solid arch. I've had a P5-166 running constantly for 2 years with a downtime of only 4 hours.  Not so sure and older 486 could handle. I'm replacing all my old routers with Celeron 1Ghz/815E/256Mb/Case/
<esands> If do you old stuff, make sure you replace the PSUs. Usually thats the thing that can cause fires.
<ajmitch> hi esands
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<Maniac> what is the 'yacc' command and why don't i have it?
<dtm> esands: 1GHz router, huh
<dtm> esands: there's no way the fastest link you can buy, could max that out
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<ajmitch> Maniac: apt-get install bison
<dtm> herro, f1x3stix
<ajmitch> dtm: probably one of the cheaper new boxes you can get
<dtm> ajmitch: neato
<Maniac> ajmitch: apt-get debian
<Maniac> rpm -Uvh debian
<ajmitch> Maniac: so get bison :P
<Maniac> how did i get so far without having bison, flex, nor yacc on my system
<Maniac> apt-get install debian
<ajmitch> not sure, but bison provides yacc
Action: Maniac thinks next run at this maybe a debian install 
<Maniac> apt-get sounds so usefull
<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch pnetlib] yacc --version
<ajmitch> bison (GNU Bison) 1.75
<ajmitch> Written by Robert Corbett and Richard Stallman.
<Maniac> Richard Stallman actually wrote software?
<ajmitch> he wrote a lot of software
<Maniac> :P
Action: Maniac kids
<chillywilly> packers are kicking a$$
<ajmitch> yeah, many people think he's just this weird old guy who never codes :)
<dtm> Maniac: install apt for rpm, then
<dtm> Maniac: i double dog dare ya
<chillywilly> RMS hacked so much he damaged his hands
<chillywilly> now *that's* hackin'
<Maniac> hmmm
Nick change: f1x3 -> fixe
<Maniac> don't hit the keys so hard?
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<esands> dtm: Actually 2x 4 port NICs?? Maybe.  Main reason is relability.  Wven though my P5s still work, they are 5 years+ old.  Pass their trustworthy usable life
<dtm> 586 can saturate a 100mbps link
<dtm> fyi
<dtm> in case you were curious  :}
<esands> Not have to fly/drive to some place to fix an old broken 586 is important.  Still newer embedded 586s are pretty cool.
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--- Tue Nov  5 2002