for the record if you hack the klogd config file and do KLOGD="-c 4" it will turn off the crap on the console er, init script ;) and the default syslog.conf will log all kernel stuff to kern.log including iptables packet filtering/nat output yay night chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" SachaS (~Sacha@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hi psu! hi aj Action: psu has skimmed yeaterday's log reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Integrator looks like it's taking off I know it sounds *so* twentieth century but CSV is still an important format with some interesting issues the evolutionary path for flat file data seems to be fixed width text files -> CSV -> XML heh yay hi reinhard: good reading your mails about appserver this should be an interesting driver to hack up :) New jbailey debians now on web site front page & gone to gnue-announce good morning SachaS and all btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("work is the curse of the drinking classes..."). johannes_ (~johannes@M701P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-240-41.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise. good morning all btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: bye SachaS (~Sacha@ark.cs.curtin.edu.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). wayneg (merlinx@ppp1423.qld.padsl.internode.on.net) left irc: "You ain't got debian you ain't got shit!" drochaid__ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-240-41.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client" gunebakan (~gunebakan@195.87.232.196) joined #gnuenterprise. gunebakan (~gunebakan@195.87.232.196) left #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid__ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-240-41.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid__ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all jamest you here? sorta what'd I break? query by detail support has some typo in popy and postgresql and some dbdrivers are left untached in postgresql there is sql;="" in popy there is sql="" and sql="", but in all others sql="" and sql sigh hang on, the mysql driver also has bug in it i'll commit fix please hack interbase too sorry, i have to go home now bye btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: wtf i swore i did all these hi all jamest: papo's gnue tree has about twice more functions in trigger namespace is there any purpose to keep ours such limited? self._triggerFunctions={'clear':{'function':self.processClear}, 'jumpRecord':{'function':self.jumpRecord, 'global': 1, }, 'getRecordCount':{'function':self.getRecordCount}, 'getCurrentRecord':{'function':self.getCurrentRecord}, 'isSaved':{'function':self.isSaved}, 'deleteRecord':{'function':self.deleteRecord}, 'isEmpty':{'function':self.isEmpty}, 'nextRecord':{'function':self.nextRecord}, 'lastRecord':{'function':self.lastRecord}, 'firstRecord':{'function':self.firstRecord}, 'prevRecord':{'function':self.prevRecord}, 'newRecord':{'function':self.newRecord}, 'initQuery':{'function':self.initQuery}, 'processQuery':{'function':self.processQuery}, 'commit':{'function':self.commit}, 'processRollback':{'function':self.processRollback}, } from papo's forms/src/GFObjects/GFBlock.py dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat: i wouldn't think so i setup the trigger namespace so it could be easily extended then I sat back and let others extend it Action: jamest is lazy like that i'm hoping that we can start looking at merging the two trees in the very near future or at least setting them up as a branch in our cvs until we can work thru the changes it would be great On-Switch trigger when is it raised? whenever the current record is switched to another record when i walk through resultset? ok, works now, put it into wrong wrong place KeithJagrs (jorgre@63.74.24.9) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-240-41.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client" reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: "later.." ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p50805C31.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. is it possible to have several blocks on one page and perform query on that blocks separately? so i can get resultset in one of them, walk through and via on-Switch trigger update related info in other block for now query (initQuery?) in any block clears all page not in the current code base from initQuery: if self.mode != 'query': # for block in self._form._blockList: # block.mode = 'query' # what is the logic that block.initQuery() initailizes all blocks of the form? Action: ra3vat votes for merging with papo's tree :) where'd you get papo's tree? we've never seen it :pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/papo may be that? reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) what's the papo page again? Action: jamest can't find it on sourceforge it's on savannah Action: jcater doesn't have url btw, only their forms are in that papo cvs repository http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/papo Action: jamest feels dumb it's in there jcater http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/papo/gnue/ eh? cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/papo co papo didn't grab it for some reason reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ah cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/papo co gnue got it dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. KeithJagrs (jorgre@63.74.24.9) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ok, web site has been updated to include brief descriptions of the non-main Forms clients available via http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/forms.php Let me know of any omissions or corrections needed err that's a little confusing to me Is there a "freedom-loving" name for Java? but maybe that's because I'm a developer the Curses and GTK are slightly different than the others java, emca, php are separate forms clients curses, gtk, and wx are modes of our main, reference client yeah i think it should be grouped together Action: psu will re-word accordingly and said that it supports wx, gtk, curses actually the java client is so old i bet it'd be a major overhaul to get it to even remotely function dude have you looked at jforms there's no code in there it's all files w/blank class defs iirc if that's the case then I'd be tempted to drop it we need to look at the whole way we're handling this I'm not sure this is clear Action: psu will try again http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/forms.php I can see a case for not mentioning the "Other Forms Clients" at all but they exist, even if JForms is Java no? who is working on that? only as prototypes (jscript) Mr_You: No-one. or (like the Java) as failed experiments to be kept around as an awful warning ;-) ahh maybe we shouldn't mention them Jans javascript code could replace JForms as people will try them out and they ask about them until we have a live one yeah but its cvs james, no releases ;-) they get what they deserve ;-) i mean not on the main page as no one is working on java one so why mention it yeah maybe archive it, or create an "old" directory.. for failed attempts ;-) well, the other Forms clients are fairly well hidden Not on the status page, not on the left toolbar, etc Only accessible from /tools/forms.php revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. masta may have some ideas for a second, I looked around to see if you could "authenticate" groups, but I couldn't find anything in pam. psu: my issue is with "official" vs "other people's implementations" as jsforms != the html mode for gnue-forms Action: jcater is just worried about confusion it would require local machine specific group checking what do you mean jsforms != html moe for gnue-forms? what is then? I dunno what it is so why not jsforms? we have planned all along to have an html mode for gnue-forms that's no secret yeah but no one has put anytime or ideas into it cept me and Jan, AFAIK and the best thing we came up with was using js. I'm not saying don't do jsforms.. go for it I never said that but saying its not going to be included is kinda a time waster included? included in what? my opinion is that we have 3 distinct things (perhaps 4) let me put it this way...you won't create a sufficient HTML client WITHOUT JS Mr_You: maybe so inclued as a GNUe Forms client. but the jsforms plans do not hold up to the reference implementation needs jcater: maybe you'd prefer active-x? ;-) 1. UI Drivers - (python based drop in drivers, curses, pygtk2, wx fit this bill) that are official at least, if they will require appserver as the webpage reads I mean, that's completely useless for me well you gotta start somewhere we have 2. Forms Implemenations - complete rewrites of forms that are not drivers that are official and it's called gnue-common and gnue-forms.uidriver.base 3. same thing as 1 only non official umm 4. same thing as 2 only non offical that would be fine to implement a python-based CGI for "2-tier"-like connectivity but its not going to be persistent i think that 3 and 4 dont belong on the gnue.org website except maybe as links to non official gnue stuff like hell its not umm official == in our CVS, or likely to be? 1 and 2 belong there but need to be distinct tell me how you will make HTTP persistent using CGI? as there is a difference between running gnue-forms -u gtk2 someform.gfd and running phpforms someform.gfd if that makes sense Mr_You: you added the CGI part jcater: how else would you connect to a DB from an "HTML client"? way I see it this.. atleast for the immediate future: psu: im not sure how to define official ultimately it should be if its in our cvs its 'official' for unencrypted 2-tier LAN service you could use local machine clients.. but i think jcater and jamest mentioned that perhaps the java version shouldnt be in there anymore as its not maintained and is nearly worthless now for encrypted 3-tier WAN service over the net, you could use appserver and HTML or local machine clients. Mr_You: that's not our vision, though that defeats the mission "All our tools can be used together or independently" in the future i would say the only kind of java implementation that coudl be official woudl be one that used all free software i.e. a free java virtual machine and toolkits jcater: but why would you use an HTML client AND local clients in the same "group? huh? Mr_You: i think you are overseeing the basic principles of gnue and looking with far too narrow of a scope why would I use curses, win32, and gtk in the same group then? because of different user's needs certainly one could make an HTML client that did not require apserver I'm trying to understand how you would use HTML client independently er appserver Mr_You: that wasnt the point the point is you could use an HTML client w/ or w/o appserver w/ or w/o reporter w/ or w/o integrator rev: absolutely, but lets talk technical just like you should be able to use appserver w/o ANY forms implementation how is it POSSIBLE to use an HTML client without middleware? um HTML client can't talk to the DB directly how is it possible to write client server applications w/o middleware? i.e. i dont see how middleware is 'special' er html the UIhtml.py driver for forms I don't see what middleware is being used in a 2-tier setup.. its only 2 hehe would be what the 'middleware' would become the browser kind of becomes the 'toolkit' (like wx or gtk) I'm not refering to "internal middleware" Mr_You: thats my point man this is frustrating im not seeing WHY you need middleware lets get on the same page Mr_You: I'm not discouraging any of y'all from doing the jsforms thing at one time someone was writing an UIhtml.py (its in cvs if i remember correctly) I never said that what is the gripe? that HTML client requires appserver and it won't run alone in 2-tier setup, correct? I just said we have plans for a UIhtml client that basically used forms and was just a driver Mr_You: the gripe is some folks dont want an EXTRA layer called appserver rev: ok by forcing the client to use appserver you are forcing htem to use a layer they feel is unnecessary rev: so tell me now, how you would expect to get persistent connections using a webserver and HTML client? much like the wx client i woudl expect the html client to allow use of appserver or allow use of common db system directly where the forms developer makes that decision but you can't have persistent connections with "common db system directly" Action: revDeke could be wrong, but i think that was the crux of jcaters argument and it still requires a web-server, your middleware/extra component Mr_You: I connect to websites everyday that have database backends and my browswer isn't talking to their database like all crapp^H^H^H^H web applications you often have to 'fake' your persistence jcater: it is "persistent-like" it is not truly persistent. well lemme tell you again i STRONGLY suggest you look at UIhtml.py I'm not opening up a pipe back to my database for a remote web browser to use :) jcater: chicken correct... so what I'm saying is.. you can't create an HTML client WITHOUT extra components, which in this case it would require APPSERVER OR Apache/webserver.. it wouldn't work without one or the other Mr_You: yes it can how so? psu: "here" link from http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/jsforms.php is broken ra3vat: thanks persistent-like is a whole other ballgame its going to be a PITA to code.. IMO um as opposed to javascript that opens connections back to home office ? :) javascript is just implementing xmlrpc I'm still waiting for your explaination Mr_You: I've pasted links to my rough outline many times lemme dig it up no no I'm refering to your response " Mr_You: yes it can" how is it possible to run an HTML client without a webserver? Mr_You: gnue-forms can stand by itself and communicate back to a webbrowser there's no magic to that so gnue-common has a builtin webserver now? ya ok, and this isn't news worth mentioning? um it's part of python's library ok it formed the basis frustrating again of the initial gnurpc implementation how do you think its either in gnue-common or is planned to be in gnue-common or what? gnue-common is serving xmlrpc calls? ok ok not by magic so hmmm isnt magic just science unexplained :) this is bizare psu: I have one concern/suggestion so if he didnt know that python had webserver capabilities it could be construed as /magic/ no? ;) I strongly feel, whatever appoach we take w/the various forms ...user so where would this gnue-common webserver code be executed? on the local machine? you would startup the gnue-web-server on the db machine? I'm very aware that many programming languages have http libraries. pk, back way I look at it is this... create a jsforms client that does xmlrpc then when the "gnue-web-server" begins to work you just integrate it with the javascript client.. cause javascript is going to be required for screen writes. psu: I strongly feel, whatever appoach we take w/the various forms the website layout should be more like http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/forms/....... e.g., you have http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/curses this could just as well refer to the curses navigator client no one has explained to me how you can run webserver code without a webserver. you would be your own webserver you mean gnue would have a webserver gnue has a webserver I don't understand why you're arguing with me I don't even understand what this is about why not just build the webserver into appserver? um why? I'm trying to figure out the roadmap! then just build forms into appserver while you're at it and the argument is still this.. if the other tools can use the code, it goes in common we all agree to that so far formsclients shouldn't require extra software for 2-tier setup.. I'm ASKING YOU.. HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE with HTML client? ITS NOT. AFAICS understand? ie. it requires a webserver or appserver.. either way one is required, you said it wasn't, but I haven't heard how. you can't build an HTML 2-tier client without something executing and connecting to the DB.. that ain't gonna be the browser, like you mentioned. if I'm wrong, correct me already. 2 tier refers to database access I never said "no server of any type" app server != a general purpose server like a webserver you said it would work without appserver or webserver. as I said earlier "yes it can" was your response to mine. btw: psu i agree with jason on tools/curses and such ok, maybe I misunderstood you you said apache/webserver so I thought you meant cgi + apache which is not the case but I also said early on mod_forms :) the gnue-forms client can be its own server I said apache/webserver because if a webservr is required it should be able to use apache thats good too so you see.. I stand by my thoughts that js is required for dynamic screen writes.. you build the layout code into JS then add on xmlrpc and 2-tier connectivity and I said that's great I'm not discouraging jsforms the 2-tier connectivity requires backend coding just as the xmlrpc route does also. but you just can't have an HTML client with both functionalities until both backends are coded. I understand ya'lls point now. it comes down to the requirement of configuring and running appserver vs the requirement of configuring and running a webserver. and the only answer I see is that one will have to come later at the expensive of the other I wasn't asking for an answer about anything I don't remember asking a question and I could be wrong, but appserver+jsforms is further along than webserver+jsforms webserver+jsforms? who said anything about webserver+jsforms ? oh man I think that's where we're getting confused morning s/webserver/gnue-web-server that better? s/jsforms/html client that's better why not call it jsforms? Action: revDeke remembers at one time a UIhtml.py floating around that seemed to acutally kind of work and you said webserver was confusing not jsforms wtf? it required webware or something did UIwebware.py ever work? uggh nm yeah that one Action: ajmitch is into webware stuff Action: revDeke thought it kind of worked I don't understand why I keep getting a response that a webserver isn't required for html client hehe what? Action: revDeke would like to see a python/html implemenation first at it should require LEAST amount of work you aren't you never did yer confusing the hell out of me, I'm trying to lay it out as simple as possible rather than a full forms rewrite in javascript or php you said you're not going to have a dynamic client with JS and I could be wrong, but appserver+jsforms is further along than webserver+jsforms but thats just me, im not writing the the client so its not for me to dictate revDeke: well, that was what the webware one was like, no? and I said? webserver+jsforms it should be ajmitch: yes .... and I could be wrong, but appserver+jsforms is further along than webserver+html client which I kind of disagree with as well but that's another story revDeke: a python/html client would still require javascript for any sort of dynamic on screen functionality. tho it'd ideally need js for client-side processing of things like input masks, keystrokes, etc as Mr_You said :) and I keep on saying, I'm not discouraging/competing w/jsforms it's a good idea go for it Action: ajmitch thinks there is a degree of confusion here ajmitch: correct, so why not write all of the layout in JS I say.. ;-0 anyways.. this is pointless.. siesel has a good deal of work done on the jsforms client and its looking good great! I'm glad slap on some sort of cgi component and you have eliminated your appserver requirement easy as that ;-) from what I understand ya'll are talking about having a client that requires a backend cgi component to do most of the forms layout and processing.. and having a "lite weight" javascript functionality to maintain dynamic screen writes and persistent-like capability.. going the route that has been taken, you can reuse the js code for the 2-tier connectivity. not at all! but I give up y'all do your thing well jason, I'm sorry, but no one has explained to me how 2-tier connectivity will be done without the use of some sort of "CGI" why do I have to design the html client right here in IRC? http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/HTMLClient.txt are my plans because we've been discussing this everyone keeps their comments to themselves? what? siesel (jan@dial-194-8-205-204.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all hi that last comment was wrong, my bad. what I meant to say.. is how do you plan on not using js? sigh cool. seems like web clients are being discussed Action: Mr_You sighs too. btw: Mr_You i never said that js couldnt be used in a python client for html i.e. i would expect it rev and all lets not just expect it... it is REQUIRED for dynamic screen writes revDeke: my vision on that is the html client would NOT require JS but if there i think you could do that it could take advantage of it ok the biggest thing that becomes an issue I understand more now. is client side triggers dudes I never said every detail had been worked out I personally don't want to touch a forms client that has to reload the screen every click or key stroke or whatever.. I would use a js client but the data stuff and such i see no problems Mr_You: great! jason: no problem neither would I Action: revDeke thinks its an implementation detail not an architectural one I'm trying to explain why JS is in our best interest for the enduser revDeke: aye as jcater points out, we dont have to design it here today Mr_You: let me state this I would fully expect y'alls jsforms to be a better experience for the end-user BECAUSE it is a specific, targeted version of forms BUT now tell me why you would not want to use JS that doesn't mean we don't want a version using our gnue-forms core Mr_You: because support for JS is very, very lackluster/unstandard I never said we wouldn't use it... just not require it bigger issue than all of this is triggers in HTML client.. sigh I'm ending this discussion right now we are not designing this today I am happy you guys are doing a jsforms client I am another implementation will keep us in check well I'm not a coding madman like jan and it will be something very useful that doesn't negate use having a more general purpose one in gnue-forms even if it's not as robust/user friendly One of the problems of js is that it is different for every browser. Some don't even support it (like dillo). now, that's all I have to say on the matter Action: jcater out I'll say this... I expect to leave it up to the developer (siesel) as to the point of where incompatibilities become an issue between browsers on whether to code that functionality or not. psu: did you catch my comment on the site layout wrt forms/ ? jcater: I have already fixed to distinguish modes of ref client and "other" clients Just need to be told which of the "other" clients we regard as unofficial at the moment and I'll remove them completely I think it's safe to say Java has jan abandoned phpforms in favor of jsforms? or are those both still being developed? siesel? I dunno if I should mention this on the list, but we could begin group and user based access control using the system group file (requiring local system lookup) or internal objects. just one word to the whole stuff: IMHO 1. choices are good 2. there has to be ONE standart implementation (more than one will allways become unmaintainted) 3. 3. ??? is that like 1. Write GNUe 2. ??? 3. Profit? ;) heh 3. ?? 4. Profit 3. jsforms should be so modular that you can easily implement three different setups: a) standalone jsforms b) jsforms with preloaded data, +... c) ... d) just take triggers from jsforms the rest will keep on the server side (php or python or perl ....) maybe.. lik datasources.. we could also have access list, would be an XML file.. and use internal objects/group file to find out who is a part of which. jcater: CSV db driver inherit from _static ? jcater: 3. Profit like in joining Greanpeace. siesel: :) btw: i dont know if anyone caught my CSV driver comment revDeke: i did revDeke: no anyone comments about what I mentioned? when was it said? Action: siesel is listening revDeke: you said you didn't want it to be complex i think good things were discussed, but im curious about making db driver more complex than need be revDeke: how owuld it be more complex? rev: when is smallbiz gonna be in the cvs? i.e. some of the things sounded more like 'integrator' issues than db driver issues Action: ajmitch will probably work on it after work today revDeke: possibly im not saying anything said shouldnt be in the db driver im just saying i woudl be cautious which things specifically are you thinking about? as generally there are two types of things csv files in which you wnat to read and write and csv files which are used to 'move' data jcater: i think you brought up a VERY good point in the dont assume 1 line some wierd files dont start data until two or three lines in and the issue of do you have header rows or not etc another good point both of those should be in the driver i htink yup you don't think field renaming should be? but one must evaluate how can one reasonably read/write is for some things i.e. is it only valid for import/export read write files and files to just "move" data could be differenciate by a "mode=RW|R|W|R_seq|W_seq" field well I wouldn't expect to run GNUe Forms off of it I suppose one "could" heh again im picking nits here im not saying anything discussed doesnt belong in the dbdriver BUT are there any docs (yet) for writing db drivers? if things are more for import export i think defining them in the conf file sucks :) i.e. it should be part of integrator imho i.e. i deal with flatfile passing for mainframe for a living yuck and having to setup connections.conf stuff for it would be ugly ajmitch: source code Action: jcater ducks Action: revDeke might be envisioning too far out to what integrator will be like revDeke: true however hear me out for a sec revDeke: I thought of this thing too. In normal case the names of the csv file are changing all the time. jcater: ok, so i'm expected to write up docs as i go? :) Action: jcater faces similar issues you are I'm really thinking, wherever you define it, this really boils down to a issue so there's really two options ajmitch: didnt i send you the GNUe Telepathy Headband in via post? 1. do as I originally suggested revDeke: must have missed it Action: revDeke was envisioning another file format..... for integrator that is XML based and have a ......... yaff that could be as simple as holding this kind of data and as complex as providing mappings and triggers etc again maybe im thinking too much into integrator here im not against what has been proposed it will be great to see a csv driver of any type as i would expect it to evolve, so i dont want to 'over complicate' things what does csv stand for? just thinking outloud well, IF it's a part of the datasource definition (since we are considering other things now) comma separated value 1. it can be part of the tag (or a subtag) 2. it can be part of the connections.conf file those are basically the 2 options I'm ok with either IF it's 2 is there a way like FORMS where we can override you could still leave out connections.conf (for one-time stuff) i.e. i can define a connections.conf file and have a tag OR i can define a tag yeah :) if so im totally cool with it now, I'm totally cool with my 1 or 2 as the integrator xml file im thinking of I honestly have no preference well could then if one time stuff just write out the db tag the advantage for #2 if its reused it could be in a connections.conf is if it IS a cvs file you need to reference very often it could be in connections.conf yip Action: Mr_You sighs. maybe I need to shut up and let derek talk im in 100% agrteement here we are talking in parallel here :) Action: revDeke hopes im thinking like them and not them thinking like me (or we are all doomed) ;) I'm reasonably sure you're thinking like us Action: jcater ducks did hell freeze over today? my feet are cold nope, still warm here I love being ignored. way it goes smallbiz is in cvs now what is csv? revDeke: I thought of XML input for Integrator too. But then we need a new directorys "sources","filters","destinations" like report has. Mr_You: comma separated values comma separated value (i answered that earler) Action: Mr_You feels like an idiot once again. I've never refered to it as acronym. siesel: more ithink like jcater (or something like that) i only see it as an acronym :) i think that integrator is just a different front end to reports siesel: I'm not sure about all of that imho integrator is i.e. im thinking the reports engine with little work will do most of what integrator needs to s <-----> s providing a mapping layer between them to do complex stuff just that you get a UI that is slightly different (with triggers if need be) jcater: i agree with that maybe its reports with a little more so I'm not sure what "filters" and "destinations" would be for in integrator at one time i thought completely separate, but i see more and more shared to a degree i tried to not get lost in the details and just kind of observe revDeke: in my mind.. it's reports with a SINGLE destination... another datasource :) i like this converstion in that the CSV driver to me is a HUGE first step for integrator ie. i have needs for integrator but mostly with CSV as soon as we have CSV driver i can start to torture test integrator with sample usages :) Action: revDeke notes that i opened a credit like with ye lowly donut shoppe in Memphis s/like/line ooooo bbl, time for me to work :) my bank offers Quicken (QIF) and MSMoney (OFX) should be easy enough to integrate Ok, so I'll remove the Java forms client from the website Is someone going to tag it then remove it fromCVS too? And should I drop the ECMAScript/Javascript as well? At least until siesel and Mr_You get something that is CVS-able? tell me where to put it into cvs then I will commit /jforms? psu: possibly just commenting (jsClient) out would be good for now. jcater: you asked about phpforms. At the moment I will first make jsforms a bit more complete before combining it with phpforms, moving much code from it into phpforms and make phpforms still work with non ECMAscript capable clients. But now I need a working Integrator (s <-----> s) um we need to hash out what a gmd file is gonna look like ack! i leave for 1/2hour and have 25 pages of logs to read jamest: psu will have an executive summary by Sunday :) i can wait then :) ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p50805C31.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: my thoughts about are kind of the following: 1. define source and destination datasources 2. define fields to be directly copied heh, it's Thursday That makes it next week in KC-land ;-) I didn't specify which sunday :) jcater: true 3. source fields split into multiple dest fields 4. source fields merged into single dest. fields 5. source fields being input for triggers only and populate dest fields 6. multiple rows from source which get merged into one row in the dest. datasource 7. "row splits" 8. submappings for detail datasources Jason: what do you think? reinhard (~reinhard@M693P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Everything that is worth fighting for, is worthy fighting dirty for" I'd say thats a pretty good use-case listing :) forms section on website changed again hopefully now definitive www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/forms.php psu: i like that better 1 possible change :) would it be cleaner to have 1 page on the reference client with #section tags for the various drivers as I know that I want to see a native win32 driver and a qt driver and I'm sure we need an emacs driver too :) The main justification for separate pages is that each mode of the ref client may have diff statuses and it's confusing to have too many "Status" lines on one page IMHO if we have the emacs driver, we possibly won't need anymore. Even unicode would be handled perfectly ;) /anymore/any other driver/ psu: good point wx: flaky curses: unusable gtk2: who knows? hmmmm, maybe we should just leave status off :) j/k Action: jcater would still rather see /tools/forms/ /tools/forms/curses /tools/forms/gtk2 /tools/forms/wx if you want to keep separate pages as I think /tools/curses is ambiguous considering we have a curses navigator too true dat as reports almost has a curses and wx mode i think Action: psu will fix that in the pending site overhaul for when we get it into CVS as the current site assumes things that make that difficult but I intend to "unassume" them once I need to get site working in both locations i.e. www.gnu.orh/software/gnue & www.gnuenterprise.org Action: psu sometimes whishes we had stuck with Zope but I got so blocked with that, I even did the unthinkable and RTFM-ed and even that didn't work ;-/ :) documentation == the last step before apt-get remove hey any of you gnue-ers have any experience with EDI? are there any free libraries to deal with it, pref C? I know derek dealt heavily w/EDI but I don't know if he had any free libraries to play with ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: ": I'm off to make more toys..." jcater: from what I can tell it doesn't seem like rocket science, but I'm just sort of trying to get a handle on the big picture from a dev perspective... looking at source is generally the way I learn best :) from what I understand EDI is a broad concept.. I guess I'm thinking specifically about ANSI X.12 and EDIFACT, which seem to be the most prevalent standards. ok but the whole "Value Added Network" concept and how EDI transactions actually take place is sort of eluding me. Anyway I figured somebody around here might have a clue about it... when's derek generally around? theoretically, EDI is meant to be a dead duck with ebXML and the like about but like many legacy technologies like my fax machine? :) it's proving much more resistant than the tech consultants expected/hoped rofl Action: psu sits opposite a COBOL programmer at work you poor naive innocent developer EDI is TECHNICALLY is as simple as it gets tis the politics of EDI that is a nightmare psu: man, you really have derek disease. everyone has different EDI standard i.e. doctype and uses different VANs (carriers) the price is LUDICROUS nickr: i find that if i wait until the end of the sentance to press return someone else has already said what I was going to i suspect there will be little hope of free EDI stuff until the cost of EDI comes down as free software develoeprs can afford to test it psu: I have a touch of that myself unless I'm hopped up on caffiene and type like the wind. Action: revDeke could look into whether LDC would gpl stuff its not likely though as over time it became cheaper in ways to outsource some of it and deal with it on an outer level as customizing for each vendor was tedious Action: revDeke still thinks the best biz model in the world would be FREE EDI i.e. all libraries and such are completely free all software free and the 'HUB' van could be 1/3rd the price of what exists today Action: jcater thinks the best biz model in the world is FREE DONUTS.... I'm just waiting for someone to try it next door to me and you would still make serious cash EDI does seem like mostly a service type situation. anyhow grib you are sick sick sick man if you want to do EDI in C as much as i hate perl it would make sense because of its good text parsing capabilities but C is well just not optimal for slicing and dicing text files imho It can be with the right support libraries. true python would is fun for edi cause its all about the lists baby :) you could compile in perl support :) haha or pcre i.e. you just read the file in as dictionaries and go to work yea but back to grib's original issue, there arent any free ones i know of i plan on authoring some (they will be in python) for now its not high priority revDeke: you seem, to know what yer talking about :) thanks for the info (still reading scrollback)... at some time i think might close a contract deal that would involve paying to author an EDI VAN and corresponding libraries if you want i can put you contact with the EDI guru ive been removed from it for a bit and he does all of it now revDeke: I know --><--- that much about EDI and I would waste a guru's time at this point. I'm just trying to figure out which direction is up. i owe him a lunch so i can meet with him and get update of what is being done there now well it kicks ass in sense that if you do volume it saves you a lot of money even though its expensive grib: follow the $$$$$$ ... that's the direction it goes revDeke: what's expensive? is it using a VAN, who charges per document? VANs generally charge per document (or per byte) a transaction might be in neighborhood of say 1.00 well it might take 4 docs to complete a transaction order invoice payment so 4 for a roudn trip transaction shipping manifest if you do say 1000 orders a day I take it that EDIFACT is an XML based text format ... is that what really gets used, or is the older X.12 stuff still more common? that s4,000 a day with say 20 business days thats 80,000 a month er month w/ 20 days not day with 20 days x.12 is more common (or was last i played) though many were starting to support XML variations think of a VAN as a good ole boy network when i was playing there were like 4 GM owned one Sears owned one Walmart owned one and a bank owned one most peopel were going through GM's but say you do business with business X and he uses GM you have to sign up with GM to do business with him then you get an accoutn with business Y and he uses Sears you ahve to sign up with Sears to do business with him you can use GM er cant yep, sounds like a typical squeeze play. the 'setup fees' are kind of costly and everyone does it a little different then even with the same VAN you might have walmart use 874 for invoices but mcdonalds uses 872 the documents are 'similar' but different anyhow there has been some shake out and there are a lot more than 3 now and people are starting to belong to more than one or two jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. so some ofthose barriers are dropping but they are still there and frustrating however EDI rocks when it works revDeke: but generally a transaction is just an exchange of text documents following a "knowable" (i.e. purchasable) format? and the protocol for connecting to and delivering documents to the VAN is knowable too? someone sends an order electronically hits the floor and pick ticket is generated, product packed and shipped... the person ordering gets a shipping manifest whenthey get the shipment the invoice goes out electronically their system auto deposits the payment and sends a receipt and you just cut out half the human labor process :) and got paid quicker to boot grib: yes its purely shoving around text files thats why i say 'techinically' its pretty simplistic gnue will support it REALLY well with integrator which we were discussing earlier in fact once someone makes a 'document' they coudl put under the gpl for others to use then all they would have to do is map their data into it :) revDeke: so it would be moderately reasonable to use XML report formats, process them to generate report output, and then transform that into an EDI doc, at least on the output direction... pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) left irc: "[x]chat" absolutely im more thinking that if you XML-EDI you could have reports actually just output that but either way you have flexibility psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. revDeke: Is designer eventually supposed to let you setup the database too? yes i think we want strong database support in our IDE there is start of schema editor in there i suspect that will just continue to be built on because its so plugin oriented it should be easy for people to continue to enhance functionality without know the internals i would like to see it be able to design queries and create views and many other things (though its not high priority) i.e.. someone not wanting to touch GNUe might be interested in GNUe Schema and the Designer portion that manages databases as a consistent cross platform / cross database mangament tool doesnt really exist ToyMan (~stuq@glvv-dsl1-116.citlink.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.." time to go home revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left #gnuenterprise. sounds like a plan jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. mmmmm home is where the donuts are jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home" Action: siesel has no home then My donuts are at home. =( chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Heya dan. re sup jeff Not much. Just ignoring my homework. are those debs in yet ;)? :P They were in yesterday. ok, ok I didn't check Apparently. ;) well I'm a busy man ya know busy busy busy *lol* Action: chillywilly fails to see the humor in that statement man I need some caffiene gotta get pepped up for some hacking What'cha breaking today? rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey: my own thing not gnue related something that I should've finish long ago it's kinda like the thorn in my side Infected? I MUST finish it now or die trying Oozing with puss? definitely yuuuup Sweet man, MIT's Dspace is such a ripoff of GNUe Docustore Action: nickr shakes a fist I don't see any Docustore where's Docustore?!? ;) there is a partially finished proposal thatI wrote over a year ago no way wait about 2 years ago exactly ;) Action: chillywilly pokes nickr in the eye with the sharp end of a trout ow someone should update the link for that, btw and that someone would be psu ;) it should be http://nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/etc ... I should rewrite the proposal I've had several good ideas since I wrote it. you should write some python too ;) I write python all day at work yea, but what abot gnue about anyway, I am just giving you a hard time cause it is what I do best I see Action: chillywilly drinks raspberry iced tea that explains a lot kdjfhskdjflksjd hfjkhgskdjfgkjghIYI&687tGIUYT7t There are sharp ends on trout? you wanna find to?!? er, out maybe instead of playing Natural Selection for four hours tonight I will rewrite my proposal yea, why don't you do something with your life ;) natural selection is like crack though Unbelievably addictive nickr: I don't believe you siesel (jan@dial-194-8-205-204.netcologne.de) left irc: "night all" uh huh nopw nope mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: rdean is away: ut2003 jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. for what purpose such a sql command is raised: DB005: [DBdriver:573] SELECT count(*) FROM reclaims WHERE ((1 = 0)) derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ? it returns a completely empty recordset from the database ok #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by derek!~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net: really useless banter #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. gack #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. gnuebot you bick stop it #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. ROFL! #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jbailey!~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com: really useless banter | foo #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 #gnuenterprise: mode change '-t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+t ' by gnuebot!~eggdrop@65.101.4.211 oh dear sorry for now gnuebot and chanserv want to bitch fight if over t so you will have to wait until i can fix gnuebot :) so deop gnuebot um he will come back he is persistent little bi0tch and i dont want to ban him i woudl rather fix him, i just cant right now i didn't say ban, i said deop he will reop himself he's not dumb you know Take away his perms in chanserv. =) That might just break him, though why do we even have him? we have 2 bots in here And the everpresent chanserv. =) jamest its nice to have a back up however he shouldnt be an op and shouldnt have any rights except to log the channel :) why is that so many messages on form's startup DB003: [EventController:57] Unknown Event: updateENTRY events are now defined per object instead of globaly so if you've events on objects we've missed then they won't fire if the form is in sampes i can fix ooooo does the form have buttons? no with what sample form i can try? i was asking if it was a sample form no if it's not then we've got issues ok hang on oooo, nevermind Action: jamest read that as trigger issue not event issue triggers are now defined per object the event system sigh, were to start :) any object can register to listen to any other object (basically) however that object may only understand what to do with a few of those events example: so if you and i both did something crazy like register to listen to derek and derek says "jump off a bridge" i may know how to jump off a bridge so I go do it :) SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-246.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. hello everyone you on the other hand don't know how (or are too smart to listen to him) and instead say "Unknown Event: jump off bridge" hi jamest.jumpOffBridge(true) rofl i typed that originally as jamest.jumpOffBridget(true) lol Action: jamest took a while to see the typo jamest: ok, i will look into that (fridge?) later jamest: what do you guys need testing on? Action: derek will be ready to rock in a few minutes everything but specifically try and break query by detail designer issues any issue you find please let me know any database drivers you can test On Monday I have to demo Gnue to my boss against a mysql database. And he'll decide if we'll use it for our purchase order system and network database. =) then you'll want me to commit the fixes :) actually the python-mysql in woody has issues or we have issues working with it i just built 0.9.2 mysql from source and it works fine I'm running unstable. yeah It'll be using the debs I uploaded, so it's all python 2.2 oh, your computer I don't have anyone elses handy. well, i'm happy to do what I can to make demo success Well - this demo is the whole reason I could spend paid time packaging it. We might be saving ourselved liek 25 licenses of filemaker. are you getting things working ok? dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. then I'm much much more interested in making things work for you I haven't tried designer yet against a database source. I ran out of time, and it turns uot I wasn't logging the conversation where you told me what to put in. =) i'll test tonight I can read the website and dig it out though. tommorow maybe. as I have mysql working Sure - I'm doing another CVS upload this weekend, so let me know if that's a good snapshot. if you have openoffice read jcaters guide in OO format I've also gotten confirmation from the folks in #python that I can change it from arch: any to arch: all. That'll speed up the time it takes to get into testing. Hmm. I don't know if abiword reads OO format or not. He hasn't got it in pdf? it teaches form creation from both text editor and designer Ah, nice. dunno i'll look jbailey: what reasons for choosing mysql? ajmitch: two reasons. ajmitch: 1) I know how to make it work ajmitch: 2) phpmyadmin heh ok phppgadmin is ok, i guess Action: ajmitch uses both mysql & pgsql I don't know of a nice equivalent for pgsql. phppgadmin does pretty much the same Ah, really? I had heard that it sucked. It's been a while though. Action: ajmitch hasn't used it enough to say if it sucks or not Dunno. I used mSql way back when. I switched to Mysql when the rest of the world did. good to hear that designer is being nice :) i wonder if it's worth me printing out the developers guide even with all it's TODOs i don't think I would yet ok crap costs me 15c a page to print at uni Ouch then dont Go to kinkos or something. kinkos? copyco sounds dodgy i can't make the pdf file No Kinkos in the correct hemisphere? it bombs on my system jamest: Can you make a .ps? Like print to file? trying uploading http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jamest/ ps format Cool - Do you want the pdf? =) excelletn Ah, cool. Anjuta supports python syntax highlighting. does mysql support subselects? I think mysql 4 might. the current version definetly doesn't. argh (unless I just have the syntax horribly wrong) what you using to make the pdf files ps2pdf? ps2pdf Action: jamest will install on ash and make them seems that mysql doesn't unless we both have the syntax horribly wrong jbailey: what will you demo monday? I haven't decided. I might reproduce our network database. If I do that and can show him it on Linux and windows that would be cool. If I can figure out how phpforms works, even better. =) all in a weekend ? :) Hmm.. I was thinking in 2 hours tommorow afternoon. =) well, i know you're feeling the python love right now Is phpforms supposed to work off of the same gcd files as gnuef? the same gfd files yes typo, sorry. =) in fact jan had a webpage that you could upload your form it had 0 privacy though gnuef sounds a LOT like queef i wouldn't try and sell gnue on phpforms yet though as I'm not sure if it's ready dict queef doesn't give me anything. jbailey: you don't want to know jamest: It's not the critical selling features. The win32 client will be. it's slang ;) Action: jamest whimpers win32 with wx is a complete bitch *lol* Looks bad? functions wierd Joy. =) jamest: found a vic^H^Holunteer to do a python win32 client? i haven't tried cvs on it yet ajmitch: all we need is a UIdriver.py file for win32all and we're golden yeah i actually started digging this morning on that i know, but there's not too much docs for the win32 stuff Would it distress you to know then that part of this proposal is to use it as a purchase order system for millions of dollars a year? jbailey: nope And that if it works that it would be on almost everyone's desk in a 70 person company? =) i feel good about forms iand common i feel ok about designer jbailey: only 70 people? i feel ok about reports appserver still a bit iffy I haven't looked at reports yet. Only designer and forms. (and obviously common by extension) navigator might need some love, i guess, but it's fairly simple yeah jbailey: to be completely honest Well, hey, it's in Debian now - it *must* be stable. =) i'd be more worried about mysql :) but then I'm bias and if it works for you it works for you *lol* I've run millions of transactions on mysql before. =) rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" keep good backups :) It's starts to suck wind when you load 20 million records into it. But so did pgsql. =) i know ALthough... pgsql would at least still load. =) jbailey: if you have a sec I can give a 90 second demo of designer/forms well, if you have 90secs and currnet cvs cool mysql works no now Action: ajmitch does cvs update though without subselects query by detail will fail derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. ToyMan (~stuq@glvv-dsl1-116.citlink.net) got netsplit. Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-247-104.jet.net.nz) got netsplit. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) got netsplit. I'll update from CVS tommorow maybe. It's close to bedtime and I want to go home soon. ok And the Hurd is top story on slashdot right now. hehe :) going to post a few comments? I usually do. I think we have enough bitches^H^H^H^H^H^H^Husers who can do that now. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-247-104.jet.net.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl081-147-022.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. gnuebot (~eggdrop@65.101.4.211) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+oo derek gnuebot' by calvino.freenode.net yeah, there have been a few more around lately Especially since the story is so stupid. RMS was stupid in proposing a release date this year and got caught with his pants down. don't know why he thought it'd be ready he had jbailey working on it i haven't seen a massive speedup in development lately jamest: I'm not a core developper. =) I just provide abuse and have been around longer than all but one person who still commits to the Hurd tree. =) jamest: chillywilly perhaps? perhaps jbailey: you also provided an autobuilder And still do. hmmm? it's alive again? Although it's spent most of its time recently building toolchains. ToyMan (~stuq@glvv-dsl1-116.citlink.net) got lost in the net-split. what are we looking at timewize for a hurd based system in production depends on what developers focus on - if they focus on L4 porting, then it could be awhile I can't asnwer that, but here's what I can give you. We got pthreads about a month ago. Marcus spent the last two nights hacking on oskit-mach and chasing stability bugs. Using oskit mach has the neat advantage that it has a serial debugger. Whcih means that we can get backtraces off of kernel crashes. This summer we switched to the same "io" core of glibc that linux uses. Neal claims that he has a solution to the partition limit ready to implement after christmas. so things are moving along ah, he does? useful I've been working with Matthias Klose on getting our toolchain up to date. Earlier this week we finally got pascal and chill running on our boxes. and as soon as ajmitch fixed libffi we'll have gcj,. ;) s/fixed/fixes/ So you can generally expect apps to run. Action: derek hasnt read back log hmm XFree works - I've seen it on Marcus' laptop. jbailey: if you want purchase order system PLEASE use gnue i can promise to help as part of gnue-sb derek: The decision isn't mind. i.e. if he is willing to do it as gpl s/mind/mine/ Action: ajmitch should try & compile that stuff he will get additional help the network database of course you are on your own :) jamest: So things are moving along and picking up speed. did gnue-sb get in cvs? MArcus' console is now in use on a bunch of systems and he's porting it to oskit-mach. That gives us all the virtual terminal support that Linux has. Scrollback buffers in each window, *and* unicode support on the console. jamest: csi is on after that i can start testing And we also have multi-attach like screen -x. jamest: yes its in cvs jamest: the savannah project is up, i think though we need it to be gnu.org not nongnu.org Action: derek doesnt know the issues there but its in gnue-sb cvs jamest: And that's all in the last few months. the gsd's are busted unless jcater got around to fixing the schema stuff in cvs derek: just a setting on savannah KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: derek runs back to CSI see you a few jbailey: time for me to try & resolve build dependencies for gcc-3.2... Action: chillywilly has tun X on the Hurd before er, run this could be a minor nightmare :) ajmitch: I haven't uploaded the bison and something else, sorry. All of the build deps build no prob, though. doxygen? dpkg-buildpackage -B doing apt-get -b source :) generally works better when i don't have the source to play with yet jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). so linux fans, should my next install be debian? there can be no other! depends it's the only thing I'd install if at all possible there is something other than debian gnu/linux hmmmm but it's frustrating to see it trail behind the other distros wrt to package version numbers ? Action: derek found redhat frustrating i run mandark loonuks now woody ships with kde 2.2 for that reason you all would have new cool toys and i couldnt even get the stinking software in a package i was compiling so much it was sick Action: derek thinks that's the love part of debian apt-get sid + other sources.list lines = pure bliss the bad thing is you either run testing or sid (no way in hell on productoin equipment) i.e. you might not be able to get kde3 or gtk2 or such or stable but with a sources.list file addition generally will get it or learn like i finally did how to run a mixed system and as jamest says i might not put a SERVER on testing/sid nor would i generally have a workstation on sid but generally a server shouldnt be running 'brand new' software as its likely not fully tested except for my home box which i develop on i.e. when a new redhat comes out with latest gcc and kde and such no way its had proper testing already :) anyhow its all opinion, i still say the best thing you can do is run what your friends run (or whoever you get support from) jamest: you know where jcater is or if he will be back? Action: derek is curious about schema stuff i want to convert our samples over to using gsd's as well as get gnue-sb working properly um his cable modem fried so he's off line at night until he gets replacement ouch thats wrong i wouldnt go home he had some work to do at the store but talked about going to work late tonight to work on some things so he may be here later cool l8r derek: update cvs again before you test things ok hey where do you get mailman? and I'm cleaning out the dcl tickets the reporst are debian version is very old so submit more list.org anyone have a sources.list l8r jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "[x]chat" l8r not that i know of well what do you know ;) 2.0.13 is the version in sid, and is the latest stable mailman version yeah looks like 2.1 is on beta4 but still how can debian test it if its not in sid? heh debian tests software as stable for inclusion in a distro they don't track the gnome 2.1.x series, for example yeah i know but generally on bigger patches there are sources.list of stuff that is close i.e. whomever is the maintainer puts in his home dir as he is brewing the packages until they become stable ah mithrandir is maintainer for mailman i thought salve wass hmm lemme check Maintainer: Tollef Fog Heen which is mithrandir - debian-installer guy people.debian.org/~tfheen has no mailman stuff yeah i checked too KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) left irc: "later" he's online now, ask him about it :) where is he and who is him (tfheen or mithrandir) uses the nick mithrandir what channel? he's in #debian-devel, might not be a good idea to ask there ;) Action: ajmitch points derek in the direction of /whois ah why not its fun to be flamed by know it all ^H^H^H^H^H^H good guys it's your skin that'll get roasted mithrandir is a LOTR reference derek ;) Gandalf Mithrandir the wizard :) in case no one knew but I suspect many did, so I dunno why I bothered to state the obvious Action: chillywilly is on crack Action: chillywilly passes it around ymmmy Action: derek bogarts the crack pip e dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-20.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: "later.." --- Fri Nov 8 2002