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<derek> hi mdean
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<jamest> i guess jcater didn't make it in?
<ajmitch> not that i saw
<jamest> oh well
<jamest> i hunt him down in the AM
<jamest> l8r
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<ajmitch> bye
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<ajmitch> morning psu, reinhard
<psu> hi ajmitch
<reinhard> good morning all
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<SachaS> morning reinhard
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<btami> good morning
<psu> hi btami
<ra3vat> hello
<psu> well, better head off to work
<psu> 4 meetings of 1-2 hours today
<psu> including one from 10-11.30 and another from 11-12
<psu> haven't quite worked that one out yet ;-)
<ajmitch> have fun psu :)
Action: dimas is at home celebrating good old communist holiday
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<SachaS> what is the gnue python xml parser based on? libxml?
<SachaS> libxml is licened under MIT licence ....
<dimas> SachaS: one that is shipped with python 
<SachaS> dimas: what is that one based on? written from scratch in python???
<dimas> i'm do not know exactly
<SachaS> libxml is licences ad mit licence which is obviously gnu gpl compliant.
<dimas> but licence should be like for others main python libs
<SachaS> everything gnu or what? :)
<dimas> i hope it is appropriate :)
<ajmitch> all recent python licenses are gpl compatible
<SachaS> ok. thanks ajmitch.
<SachaS> ajmitch do you roughly know the difference between ruby and python? 
<SachaS> as i am looking at ruby to do some programming.
<ajmitch> nope, haven't looked at ruby
<ajmitch> ruby has c-like syntax i've heard
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<rm-away> Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in
<rm-away> the milk.
<rm-away> 		-- Thoreau
<rm-away> fortune of the day :)
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<derek> quick factoid #1: 
<derek> Kiwis are the only birds that hunt by smell. 
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<jamest> GACK!!!!!
Action: jamest just noticed that dcl splits ticket listing into multiple pages
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<StyXman> hi. anything wrong with cvs?
<StyXman> I get 
<StyXman> cvs server: cannot open directory /cvsroot/gnue/gnue/forms/src/uidrivers/nstti: No such file or directory
<StyXman> cvs server: skipping directory forms/src/uidrivers/nstti
<jcater> nstti is no longer... it's curses now
<jcater> (since we are using our own curses lib)
<StyXman> ah, ok. so I just wipe out that dior
<StyXman> can you stop coding? I can't keep up with you, guys! :)
<jamest> StyXman: if you do cvs update -Pd
<jamest> it should clean things for you
<StyXman> jamest: ok, zanx
<jamest> also
<jcater> StyXman: no way!
<jamest> we need to start looking into what it's giong to take to merge trees
<jcater> :)
<jamest> or at least make papo's a branch in our cvs
<jamest> so that we can abuse you guys less
<StyXman> that sounds reasonable
<StyXman> just... try to do a few things this weekend, ok? :)
<jamest> i have my kids
<jamest> so expect nothing on my end :)
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<Arturas> Hello
<dimas> hello Arturas
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<Arturaz> Arturas qr tu?
<Arturaz> |}
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<grib> hey y'all.  just brainstorming with some folks and thinking about how it all fits in with gnue.  a few thoughts/questions: 
<nickr> kadink
<grib> so the application server.  does Zope fit in there at all?  it has many of the properties of an application server and gives you a lot of freebies. 
<grib> and it's already python.
<grib> for example, the ZPT mechanism and TAL/METAL could be used to process a report definition (in XML) into a filled-out report (in XML)
<grib> essentially for free. 
<grib> since it already talks XML-RPC every which way it seems like it could interoperate with some of the existing gnue stuff, no? 
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<grib> anyway.  just thinking.  I don't have enough experience with the state of the art in gnue to really know how the pieces fit together so the above is likely to make no sense. 
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<revDeke> oh studs de la network
<revDeke> do any of you have experience with duplicate packet transfer?
<revDeke> i.e. whenyou do a ping you get say 3 packets for every 1 requested
<revDeke> with a (DUP!)
<grib> revDeke: are you pinging a broadcast address, x.x.x.255 for example? 
<revDeke> well if its a broadcast its not x.x.x.255
<revDeke> its actually the proxy server
<revDeke> so i dont think it should be 'broadcasting'
Action: revDeke is far from a networkign guru
<revDeke> but i think they have some routing tables messed up here
<revDeke> OR they ahve multiple machines with same mac address or something
Action: revDeke was going to try to use tcpdump but i dont knw what to really look for
<revDeke> i did a traceroute and only 3 machiens between me and this box
<revDeke> if i ping each intermediate machine
<revDeke> i dont get DUP's so the DUP is happening at last box 
<revDeke> i just dont want to go stir the hornets nest that is lan services
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<btami> hi all
<revDeke> unless i can confirm that this should NOT be happening
<revDeke> i.e. im not as concerned in fixing it (As thats the network guys job), but rather in diagnosing it as a problem
<revDeke> btw: windows tools do not show the duplication
<revDeke> but research tells me their tools are buggy and thats why
<btami> jcater: SyntaxError: invalid syntax in UIdriver.py line#679 and #688
<btami> except AttributeError
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<revDeke> that was quick
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<pradhap> jcater: hi
<pradhap> jcater: i want some example of oracle with gnue...
<pradhap> jcater: if any application... can you juz tell me..
<jcater> pradhap: an example of what?
<revDeke> would load balancing cause duplicate packet creation?
<pradhap> jcater: sample application... that conects oracle database... add/remove record some thing like that...
<pradhap> jcater: if you have any apps like that juz mail to pradhap@indiya.com
<jcater> pradhap: I'll see what I have
<jcater> most of my stuff is internal to my company... but I think I have some samples somewhere
<pradhap> jcater: i really need a small application.... 
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<jcater> pradhap: all of the samples/ stuff works under Oracle
<jcater> you'd just need to alter the create statements in the .sql "create" files
<pradhap> jcater: oh !!
<pradhap> jcater: i will try... i will get you back if any problem.....
<nickr> is there like a set object in Python?
<nickr> setadd, setremove, union, difference
<nickr> these are useful features.
<jcater> nickr: afaik, no
<jcater> but there are proposals to put in native sets
<Arturas> bye
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<jcater> if you need them, you might want to look at kjbuckets
<jcater> http://starship.python.net/crew/aaron_watters/kjbuckets/kjbuckets.html
<nickr> damnit
<nickr> boolsheet
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<Varadhan> jcater: Hi.. i need a favour from you...
<jcater> Varadhan: yes?
<Varadhan> jcater: i have to install Oracle 9i on an Itanium box with debian...
<Varadhan> jcater: i have downloaded the Oracle 9i Release I, developer version for IA 64...
Action: jcater drools
<Varadhan> jcater: according to the supplied doc, it doesnot have any "runinstall" program to install the Oracle...
<Varadhan> jcater: rather, it asks us to do some pre-installation configuration and some post-installation configuration...
<jcater> ok
<jcater> that sounds familiar
<Varadhan> jcater: and the main installation is just "un-tarring" the dowloaded tar.gz file...
<Varadhan> jcater: we have done as per the document... and we are able to run system queries like "Select sysdate from dual" etc...
<Varadhan> jcater: the actual problem is we are not able to create a database...
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> let me send you my script that I use
<jcater> I've hung on to it for the last 5 years
<jcater> and slightly modified it for each release of oracle
<jcater> maybe you can gleen some information from it
<jcater> where would you like it emailed?
Action: revDeke thwacks jcater on head
Nick change: revDeke -> jcater2
<jcater2> if you give me an ssh account on that IA64 box i will gladly help you install provided you let me install and run tests for gnue on it regularly
Nick change: jcater2 -> revDeke
<Varadhan> jcater: it says "Create database failed" with "ORA-29702:Error occurred in Cluster Group Service Operation" 
<jcater> um
<jcater> I have never done clustering
<jamest> revDeke: you get any testing done last night?
<Varadhan> jcater: even we are going to run gnue on that machine... :) after this successfull installation...
<revDeke> no i caught up watching obidiah on tvU after CSI
<Varadhan> jcater: can you email that script to me???
<revDeke> and fell asleep before i made it back to pc (so sad, im getting old i guess)
<jcater> yeah, but be forewarned, I haven't upgraded to Oracle 8i
<jcater> and I don't use clustering
<revDeke> chicken
<revDeke> on both accounts
<Varadhan> jcater: a small correction, i am trying Oracle 9i...
<jcater> err
<jcater> Oracle 9i
<Varadhan> jcater: okay....
<revDeke> jamest: im out tonight (pillar concert woot!)
<jcater> I'm still on Oracle 8i
<revDeke> but i shoudl be able to do some work sun and monday
<revDeke> if the schema stuff looks good by saturday night
<revDeke> i will have lots of work to do
<jcater> Varadhan: email address?
<Varadhan> jcater: sure... do you have my mail id??? which i gave that day???
<revDeke> all of which will be GOOD testing for forms
<jcater> Varadhan: can you give to me again? I get a lot of emails and I would have to dig it out
<jcater> Varadhan: plus, I'm very lazy
<Varadhan> jcater: thats not a problem...
<ajmitch> hi people
<jcater> people?
<jcater> there are people here?
<ajmitch> dunno 
Action: jcater thought we were all bots
Action: ajmitch doesn't think that bots can be that chaotic
<Varadhan> jcater: mail sent???
<jcater> Varadhan: should be, yes
<Varadhan> jcater: seems like the server is not responding... if you dont mind, can you please send the same to this id???
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<btami> jcater: AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute '_parameters' in GFForm.py line #80 in __init__
<btami>     self._parameters = app._parameters
<btami> sorry :)
<btami> i'm just testing :)
<jcater> grrr
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> where'd you trigger that?
<jcater> when running forms?
<btami> yes
<jcater> btami: ok, committed
<jcater> that one slipped by me :)
<btami> thanks
<jamest> ok
<btami> jcater: 'SingleInstance': 1 for 'staticsetrow' in GDataSource.py line #422 maybe wrong
<btami> it breaks static.gfd in samples/testcases
<jcater> yes
<jcater> that looks wrong
<jamest> whoops, i forgot to ask about that
<jamest> just commented out of my parser check
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<siesel> hi all
<ajmitch> hi 
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<Varadhan> did anyone ever tried to write any sample application (even a small application with two to three forms can do) in gnue???
<Mr_You> definitely paranoia
<Mr_You> oops
<Mr_You> yes varadhan
<jamest> Varadhan: yes
<Varadhan> Mr_You: can you guide me to write one??? pls...
<Mr_You> you'll want to find Jason Caters developer document.. 
<Varadhan> jamest: do you have any sample documentation to write sample applications???
<jcater> Varadhan: I do
<jcater> hang on...
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/Developers-Guide.pdf
<jcater> this is a relatively new doc
<Varadhan> Mr_You: thankx a lot...
<jcater> but might be a good start
<Varadhan> jcater: thank you very much...
<jcater> Mr_You: it scares me when you say "definitely paranoia" after a question like that :) 
<Mr_You> wrong channel ;-)  sorry heh
<Varadhan> jcater: yeah.. i am trying to write a small banking application just to show a demo about gnue features...
<jcater> cool
<Varadhan> jcater: document is nice.. hopefully i will be able to finish my app soon...
<jamest> i know people have said that the roadmap exists only in a few heads of the developers
<jamest> in an effort to do something about that I present
<jamest> http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/forms.html
<jamest> or www even :)
<jcater> and I present
<jcater> http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/reports.html
<jamest> it is very much a work in progress
<jamest> all of it is
<jamest> it's based heavily upon kde
<jamest> er
<jamest> kde's release feature list with some tweaks
<jamest> while it's not as strick as a roadmap it does attempt to give people an idea where things are going
<jamest> how we think it'd work
<jamest> as the 0.5.x releases progress things get moved from the red area, to the yellow, then to the green
<Mr_You> Varadhan: you may be interested in the GNUe-SmallBusiness apps which are currently only in cvs
<jamest> 0.6.0 will not appear until either everything in 0.5.0 section is in the green OR something causes us to move items holding us back into a later release section
<jcater> I like KDE's release plans better than the traditional roadmap you see w/projects
<jcater> as it is more fluid
<jcater> and, I think it fits our model of development better
<jamest> so should jason and I  continue to work on these or are we waisting our time?
<jcater> <chirp>
[15:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> <tap><tap><tap>Is this thing on?
Action: jcater waves his hand at jamest
<jcater> "over here!"
<Mr_You> who are you asking?
<jcater> #gnuenterprise
<Mr_You> sounds good to me heh
<jamest> we're asking everyone in the channel
<siesel> how are/will be the feature plans updated?  CVS? ...?
<jamest> right now it's horrible
<jamest> vi and raw html
<jamest> I'm pretty sure I'd like to see someone make some databases and gfd files we can run on ash
Action: ajmitch likes the feature plans
Action: siesel likes the feature plans too. Good Work.
<jamest> then force our webmaster to write some php to create the pages in realtime
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<ajmitch> nr neilt
<neilt> hello
<ajmitch> we be discussing feature plans :)
<ajmitch> show him, jamest!
<ajmitch> how are you?
Action: ajmitch has not seen neilt around much lately
<neilt> I am excellent
<neilt> but busy
<ajmitch> http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/forms.html
<neilt> how about you
<ajmitch> i am fine now that i have finished uni for the year :)
<ajmitch> time for some hackering
<neilt> http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/appserver.html looks like a lot of work
<neilt> and forms etc
<ajmitch> yup
<jamest> lol, most of it is placeholders
<ajmitch> bbl all, i have to go out in the rain & get very wet now
<jamest> the only ones that have been worked on are common, forms, reports
<jamest> and then only a little
<jamest> i think jason is banging on reports now though
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> trying to
<siesel> jcater: can you execute "/usr/sbin/ssl-certificate --force" on ash to recreate the ssl certificate? 
<jcater> ok
<siesel> thx
<jbailey> Oh weird.  I didn't think gnue actually had a featuer list they were trying for. =)
<jbailey> I thought it was just "do everything for everyone"
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<revDeke> sorry
<revDeke> work is good on the roadmap stuff
<jcater> no
<jcater> it's a feature plan
<revDeke> over time i hope to get these generated directly from dcl
Action: jcater ducks
<revDeke> jcater: im fine with calling it a featureplan
<revDeke> as thats what i pretty much am defining by saying roadmap
<revDeke> i.e. a list of what features are targeted for what release
<revDeke> i woudl call it release schedule
<revDeke> but that sounds like it has a 'time' connotation
<revDeke> and we all dont want that 
<jcater> I don't care for release schedule at all
<jcater> roadmap is better than that
<revDeke> rofl
<btami> may i suggest layout engine plugins (independent from xslt) for reports 0.3.x feature plan
<revDeke> we can call it foo as long it exists
<revDeke> i like the way its going, will give me idea of what i need to add to dcl
<revDeke> so that someday it can configure them
<jcater> btami: we are independent from xslt now
<Varadhan> Mr_You: sorry had gone for a tea.. can you name some of such apps (small business apps)???
<Varadhan> Mr_You: can i get links to such apps sources???
<btami> jcater: ?
<nickr> FuturePlan(tm)
<revDeke> already i plan to add 'versions' properly into DCL
<jcater> btami: maybe I misunderstood your suggestion
<jcater> revDeke: I thought about using DCL for this
<Mr_You> varadhan: go to the cvs page at www.gnue.org and instead of "gnue" use "gnue-sb" in the cvs command lines.
<revDeke> so that people can file bugs against versions more like bugzilla
<revDeke> but also allow developers to put 'release version'
<revDeke> i.e. what version its slated to be fixed
<jcater> but I'm a little concerned about the flexibility
<btami> jcater:i have to use xslt now to make a html or text or pdf ...
<jcater> but we could try
<revDeke> same could go about its workorders 9features)
<revDeke> jcater: so am i
<revDeke> right now NO WAY it coudl do it
<revDeke> it will take some shifting of DCL
<jcater> btami: that's because "xslt" is the only plugin we've written for those report types
<revDeke> for now i would suspect that DCL be done to track the work (bugs) not so much plan it
<siesel> revDeke, could you add Q&A to DCL too? Like gnue-forms passed test X and failed test Y...
<jcater> btami: actually, that was implied by the 0.2.x section
<revDeke> yes
<jcater> on GNUe:Reports:Standard Documents
<jcater> I'm hungry
<jcater> anyone have any food?
<siesel> hehe 
Action: siesel had orderd piza and lasagne :)
<btami> jcater: i mean no intermediate xml, just layout events
<siesel> delicious :)
<revDeke> siesel : well over time yes to Q&A
<revDeke> i would see new features as being WorkOrders
<revDeke> and then when a work order is filed instead of being 'closed' it goes to Q&A
<revDeke> and Q&A has extra fields yada yada yada
<Varadhan> Mr_You: except DCL, other projects have the status of "Not yet started"...
<revDeke> but thats far down the road
<jcater> btami: ah, I see
<revDeke> im sooo happy to see loose feature lists
<btami> jcater: you talked about before :)
<Varadhan> Mr_You: is there any other smallbusiness apps just to show as a gnue-demo???
<revDeke> i dont want to get out of control
<Mr_You> varadhan: go to the cvs page at www.gnue.org and instead of "gnue" use "gnue-sb" in the cvs command lines.
<jcater> btami: no, I haven't discussed, but I've been personally thinking about that
<Mr_You> its only accessible via cvs
<Varadhan> Mr_You: OH!! lemme try...
<btami> jcater: ok
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<btami> jcater: and maybe some visual reports support in designer 0.6.x ?
<jcater> btami: that would go into the designer feature-plan, which we haven't started on
<jcater> but, definitely
<jcater> that's going to be a biggie
<btami> http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/designer.html
<btami> :)
<jcater> btami: that was a "cp common.html designer.html"; notice the header...
<jcater> I'm still in the reports.html right now
<siesel> reinhard and I talked about autocreated forms out of database metadata.
pradhap (~pradhap@61.11.56.27) left irc: 
<jcater> you could almost take the Designer wizard examples and use them as is
<jcater> to do that
<jcater> (well, and make them non-interactive)
Action: siesel thought doing that :)
<siesel> can you add it to forms roadmap?
<siesel> (or add me to www-users group :) )
<revDeke> we need our website in cvs pretty badly but thats another discussion
<jamest> what you want on forms?
<jamest> autocreated forms from database metadata?
<jamest> is that it
<jcater> would that go into forms?
<jcater> or appserver?
Action: jcater would think that'd be an appserver thing
<jcater> actually
<jcater> can I ask the usefulness of such a thing?
Action: Mr_You &
<jcater> as designer can easily spit out forms
<revDeke> jcater / jamest when i get a chance one thing i can do on these maps is replace
<Varadhan> Mr_You: i got the code, thanx for your help... though, i could not figure out the starting file, can you help me pls???
<jcater> but I rarely see an autocreated form that doesn't need a "little" tweaking
<revDeke> All outstanding critical bugs in dcl, if any 
<revDeke> with actual bug numbers and desc w/ links
<Mr_You> Varadhan: maybe someone else can I need to run.
<jcater> if appserver plans to serve up forms files
<revDeke> as often we might not actually schedule to close every bug for a release some might be better closed in subsequent releases
<jamest> jcater: i think they want a data browser
<siesel> jcater: we discussed that it would be better if forms would have that functionality
<jcater> oh
<jamest> point forms at a database and it opens a tree
<jcater> hmm
<jamest> click on a table and it opens a grid
<jcater> is that a forms thing
<jcater> ?
<jamest> that I don't know
<jamest> I wanted a grid view 
<revDeke> ????
<Varadhan> can any1 help me to run the gnue-sb application??? i just downloaded from the CVS... i don't know how to start it... pls help me..
<revDeke> a grid view is nice
<jamest> as then I could replace pgaccess here
<jamest> which i dislike stongly
<jcater> jamest: but that gridview would probably be a gridview of an existing form, right?
<jamest> yes
<revDeke> but i dont know if forms should be a table manager like that
<jcater> revDeke: that's my fear
<jcater> I don't think it should either
<jamest> I'm not defending it
<revDeke> i suspect designer is better suited to hav e that functionality
<jcater> I would like to see what jamest wants though
<jcater> revDeke: well, it almost does
<jcater> File | New | From Wizard | Simple Wizard
<jcater> click save
<revDeke> jcater: pretty much
<jcater> clijc Debug | Run
<jcater> :)
<revDeke> but i mean real time
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> but seriously
<jcater> it's amost there anyway
<revDeke> more like pgaccess/such
<jcater> you just add a menu option
<revDeke> but yeah the wizard save is what i use all the time :)
<jcater> that automates a few of those steps
Action: revDeke thinks maybe what people are wanting is dynamic forms
<Varadhan> can any1 help me to run the gnue-sb application??? i just downloaded from the CVS... i don't know how to start it... pls help me..
<revDeke> i know thats what the geas people want
<siesel> the idea was to produce a form on the fly. 
<revDeke> Varadhan: you cant
<revDeke> until the gsd engine is fixed
<jamest> siesel: you have an ash accout right
<revDeke> you wont be able to make valid schema's
<revDeke> from the gsd's
<siesel> yep.
<Varadhan> revDeke: Oh!!!
<siesel> revDeke, gsd is broken???
<revDeke> sorry for the breakage/cruft
<revDeke> siesel: VERY broken
<revDeke> VERY VERY broken
Action: revDeke wasnt pleased but i promised to not get too mad about it
<Varadhan> revDeke: is there anyother sample application available in gnue except DCL and gnue-sb???
<revDeke> the gsd's worked fine with my local setup from a different cvs Varadhan, but as part of fixing gsd engine
<revDeke> we decided to do things differently
<revDeke> i have since changed the gsds in gnue-sb to reflect those decisions so no engine will parse them currently :)
<revDeke> hopefully by monday
<revDeke> Varadhan: gnue/forms/samples/
<revDeke> has plenty simple one's
<revDeke> if you have a database with data
<revDeke> dont bother looking for an app make one
<jcater> siesel: I understand creating forms on the fly... but I question that being a function of forms
<revDeke> in 3 minutes or less you can have a form
<revDeke> jcater: i would say it should not be function of forms 
<revDeke> well let me restate that, as long as i can always have flat file forms im content
<revDeke> not saying i wouldnt use dynamic or database ones, but for now its nice to have flatfile ones
<siesel> The idea was that for some simple tables you don't even have to startup designer.
<Varadhan> revDeke: thanx for your suggestion... i have a question... 
<revDeke> siesel: whats the diff
<revDeke> if you start forms or designer
<siesel> Just point form on it. "gnue-forms gnue:mytest" 
<revDeke> i.e. if we add more dbmanager like functionality to designer (which i think we plan to)
<Varadhan> revDeke: you said that there is some problem in gsd's... is it with the gnue-sb gsd's or any other gsd's that you create using gnue-designer???
<jamest> man
<revDeke> all gsd's at this point (iirc)
<revDeke> unless jcater has modified designer to match the new specification
<jamest> wouldnt this data browser be fairly simple standalone app
<siesel> the diff is that the end-user shouldn't use or install designer
<revDeke> jamest: i think so
<jamest> based on gnue-common
<revDeke> im thinking maybe its a 'plugin' to designer
<jamest> and wx
<revDeke> than could be called indpendently
<revDeke> i see many of things in designer being like that
<revDeke> where you can access them from within designer
<revDeke> or launch on their own
<revDeke> but maybe im crazy
<revDeke> Varadhan: for now if you have tables and data go to designer and choose the wizard
<revDeke> and follow it
<jamest> well, I really don't have strong feelings for or against
<revDeke> and you will get a form that works :)
<jamest> as honestly a small plugin to forms would do it too
<revDeke> assuming your connections.conf is correct
<revDeke> jamest: true
<jamest> just have it build the xml form on the fly
<revDeke> thast something we hadnt really talked about before
<siesel> reinhards idea was NOT to have a data browser, but to use dynamic forms for 80% of all cases.
<revDeke> forms plugins
<jcater> I'm thinking standalone app myself
<revDeke> siesel: thats what i said when 'appserver guys want dynamic forms'
<Varadhan> revDeke: I have just chosen a simple form wizard, it works.. i can browse thru the records of my Oracle table...
<reinhard> yes
<jcater> but wouldn't that be something appserver serves up?
<reinhard> we want dynamic forms
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> jcater: the problem would be
<reinhard> that forms can "better" do the dynamic form
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<reinhard> as forms knows things about the UI which appserver doesn't know
<reinhard> like
<reinhard> point sizes of the current font
<reinhard> or
<revDeke> wouldnt this be a component of common
<revDeke> that designer uses?
<reinhard> even
<reinhard> size of the screen
<revDeke> i.e. if designer takes a table def and makes a form via a wizard
<reinhard> (for example to distinguish how many rows a "pseudo grid" has)
<jcater> reinhard: actually, no forms definitions ever mention point sizes
<revDeke> instead it just makes the choices passed the values
<jcater> or anything like that
<revDeke> and isntead of writing a file writes and xmlstream and passes it to forms?
<revDeke> i.e. i would suspect the functionality really already exists
<reinhard> jcater: yes sorry point sizes are a bad example
<revDeke> its jsut a matter of making it accessible to forms or appserver to invoke
<btami> reinhard: why not a standalone app ?
<siesel> revDeke: its more a philophical than a implementation problem :)
<jcater> siesel: yes it os
<revDeke> i think thats a plus of dealing with xml in this case is forms shoudnt care if the definition is coming from a file or directly from a stream
<jcater> it doesn't fit in with any model of forms client we have... the client is always given a definition
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<revDeke> siesel: my theory is as long as its a choice there is room for it in a sense
<revDeke> jcater: i propose that forms does NOT do this
<jamest> jcater: actaully I wanted more dynamic widgets eventually
<siesel> the reason to put it in forms was that it should work in 2-tier too.
<revDeke> i.e. it always just builds from a definition
<jamest> so tthat triggers could adjust the UI on the fly
<chillywilly> you guys suck
<jcater> jamest: yes
<revDeke> some other application (or common) could prebuild streams and hand it to forms
<chillywilly> who moderates gnue-announce?
<jcater> but I think this is slightly diffferent
<jcater> I think I'm in agreement with derek on this
<siesel> but possibly the best place would be in common. like the GPD creation out if a gear file
Action: jcater washes his mouth out)
<reinhard> jcater: lol
<revDeke> siesel: thats where i was going
<jcater> siesel: I'd agree with that
<revDeke> is if it were in common
<jamest> so who whats to update the appserver.html ?
<revDeke> gpd's or reports or appserver could get at it
<revDeke> in fact forms could in a sick way :)
Action: siesel can't read as fast as he writes :) :)
<revDeke> you coudl have a form that called a trigger to make a dynamic form
<revDeke> rofl that would be funny
<jamest> siesel?
<reinhard> sorry
<jamest> reinhard?
<reinhard> this is a good discussion but i'm dog tired
<reinhard> and i'm not even sure if i can still follow ist
<reinhard> it
<jcater> dog tired?
<reinhard> aehm
<jcater> you've been hanging around us American's so long
<siesel> reinhard: please just say yes to jamest question, ok?
<reinhard> this is how we say it
<jcater> that you've picked up our idioms :)
<jcater> oh, it's Austrian idiom too?
<jcater> cool
<reinhard> ah
Action: jcater learned something new today
<reinhard> jamest: answer to your question is
<reinhard> "siesel" ;)
<siesel> rabäh
<reinhard> j/k
Action: jamest waves the write permission to the web site around
<reinhard> seriously
<jamest> here siesel, siesel, siesel
Action: siesel will try if I have time
<reinhard> i don't think we are far enough with our plans about _what_ we want
<reinhard> to tell _when_ we want it
<reinhard> however
<reinhard> if i want to survive this week i have to go to bed now anyway :)
<reinhard> night all
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<jcater> chillywilly: no, you suck
<jcater> :)=
Action: chillywilly hurls bricks at jcater
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<jcater> chillywilly: why do we suck?
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<chillywilly> cause someone moderated my w00t! from gnue-annouce ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: that was me
<jcater> nothing personal
<chillywilly> corse it was
<chillywilly> yea right
<jcater> but we promise that list will be low traffic
<jcater> so a "woot!" response
<jcater> was moderated out :)
<jcater> you could reply to gnue-dev if you'd like
<chillywilly> moderate this
<jcater> but gnue-announce is supposed to be low traffic 
<chillywilly> I don't give a shit
<jcater> yeah, I got your "moderate this" right here!
<chillywilly> bring it on
Action: revDeke wonders if chillywilly takes one?
<jcater> chillywilly: seriously, nothing personal
<revDeke> why when we dont care do we say 'i dont give a shit' (when giving a shit would be the pinnacle of not caring)
Action: psu though gnue-announce was his own personal mail list
<revDeke> yet when we 'give a shit' as in go potty we saywe ('take a shit')
<chillywilly> it fscking is
<chillywilly> only the gnu-elite get to say what goes there
<revDeke> not really
<revDeke> psu was more correct
Action: psu is not the gnue-elite 
<revDeke> i think its pretty much his list :)
<chillywilly> the frelling gnue gastapo
<psu> either "more KC crap for you to read" or "I changed something on website, wanna look?"
<jcater> well
<jcater> I get to use it
<jcater> about once every 3-6 months
<jcater> for the release announcement :)
<drochaid> there's a gnue-announce? :o
<jcater> yes
<jcater> we gnue-announce to the world our plans for world domination
Action: drochaid wonders what else he's missed
Action: ajmitch back & soaking wet!
<jcater> ajmitch: careful, don't touch that keyboa.... bzzzt
<jcater> oops, nevermind
<chillywilly> afaik, a w00t is annoucement of joy ;)
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> that's my story and I'm sticking to it
<jcater> well
<jcater> can I respond to gnue-dev with "fsck off!"
<jcater> ?
<jcater> that's an announcement
<jcater> not that I would ever want to do that to any threads
<chillywilly> I am sure you have the power to do so
<psu> no-one seems to understand our mailing list structure
<jcater> I understand it
Action: drochaid wonders if he can annouce the updating of drochaid.org on gnue-announce [once drochaid.org has actually been updated of course]
<jcater> gnue-announce --> psu's mail list
<jcater> gnue-discuss --> arguments
<psu> I wonder if we should start treating them as mailman umbrella lists 
<jcater> gnue-dev --> general complaints
<psu> and subscribe gnue-dev to gnue and 
<psu> gnue to gnue-annouce
<psu> and rationalise the membership lists
<psu> "About time for our annual mailing list re-org" ;-)
<jcater> psu: after that
<jcater> should we start planning for the 
<jcater> annual website backend change?
Action: jamest just notices he getting no mail from gnue-announce
<jamest> sigh
<psu> that;s not due for another 6 months
<chillywilly> jamest: yea, gnu.org is cool like that
<chillywilly> jamest: it likes to frelling frop yo ass from the list whenever it feels like it
<chillywilly> or perhaps it is overzealous moderators?
<ajmitch> ok, time for me to get to work
Action: chillywilly forms his conspiracy theory
<chillywilly> s/frop/drop/
<chillywilly> wtf is a frop?
<chillywilly> gah
<jcater> frop?
<chillywilly> frop off jcater
<jcater> it's a stale Starbucks drink
Action: jcater thinks
Action: ajmitch wonders what chillywilly is dribbling on about
<revDeke> frop
<chillywilly> ajmitch: none of yor damn business
<revDeke> is a fscking drop
<ajmitch> chillywilly: fine
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> I like that
<jcater> that's what we should call gnue-sb
<jcater> they have MYM (Managing your Money)
<jcater> we need NOYDB
<jcater> "None of your damn business"
<jcater> because with GNUe....
<jcater> ... it's never business as usual
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Action: drochaid assumes the lack of being told to fuck off means that he can indeed announce drochaid.org next update on gnue-annouce :-D
<psu> gnue-sb - freedom for small businesses that aim to get bigger
<chillywilly> nope, I have rights on it
<psu> will probably be the tag line for the new website
<psu> when I get a round tuit
<jamest> l8r
jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise.
<psu> same as "putting the free back into free enterprise" on main site
<ajmitch> you chased jamest away :(
<chillywilly> psu: don't get me started
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Action: jcater must go home now
<jcater> as much as I love my conversations w/chillywilly
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<ajmitch> and they all leave
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<psu> anyroadup
<psu> KC has gone to Zack, expect it up either tonight or tomorrow
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<psu> I'm out of here for the weekend
<ajmitch> bye
<psu> Gonna try this "real life" thingy they keep talking about
<chillywilly> it's overrated
<ajmitch> been there, done that
<psu> from the name I was guessing it's one of those macrobiotic youghurts
<psu> but apparently it's even more interesting than that...
<chillywilly> nah
<chillywilly> it's all shit
<dsmith> MMMmm yogurt.
<psu> Any emergency changes to the website while I'm gone, let me know 
<dsmith> Ever have port yogurt?  "Meat on the bottom!"
<psu> (we really must get in CVS RSN)
<dsmith> Gahhh!
<dsmith> PORK
<chillywilly> ew
<chillywilly> that sounds nasty
<dsmith> It's a joke.
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<chillywilly> well it was a lame joke
<dsmith> You go in a supermarket, grab a yogurt, and say that.  Then watch.
<chillywilly> no thanks
Action: dsmith shut's up now.
<chillywilly> I don't have a life
<chillywilly> much less do I ever leave the computer room
<chillywilly> I am fed intraveniously
<chillywilly> sp?
<chillywilly> whatever
<chillywilly> intravenously
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<ajmitch> wb jamest
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<siesel> quit night
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<chillywilly> heheh
<ajmitch> yes?
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<chillywilly> ajmitch: bite me
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Nick change: _Maniac -> Maniac
<chillywilly> ajmitch: you there ;)?
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> i am present
Action: ajmitch wonders what chillywilly wanted
<chillywilly> nothing much
<chillywilly> just picking on you
<chillywilly> cause I wub you
<ajmitch> i see
<chillywilly> whatcha doin'?
<chillywilly> did you finish exams?
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> i have finished exams
<ajmitch> i was just eating, and about to get back to work
<chillywilly> yaaaay!
<chillywilly> ok
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<chillywilly> ajmitch: time for some hacking?
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> perhaps
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<jcater> kickass
<jcater> cable modem works finally
<jcater> after 5 days
<ajmitch> yay
<jamest> yippie!
Action: jcater can feel the love^H^H^H^Hsarcasm
Action: jamest pictures jcater sitting at pc with wires running to the modem from the alarm clock, microwave, washing machine, and cat actiing as a bypass filter
<Mr_You> X10 rocks
<Mr_You> heh
<drochaid> X10 sucks [sorta, if you're talking about the HA tech]
<Mr_You> HA?  High Availability?
<drochaid> home automation
<Mr_You> ahh yeah..
<Mr_You> why you think it sucks?
<drochaid> interference caused by appliances, constant module failure, large and bulky, limited number of house codes/unit numbers, not all support discreet on/off or set level dim/auto return dimi
<drochaid> should I continue?
<Mr_You> hmm ok
<jcater> drochaid: surely
<drochaid> and I did say sorta up there
<Mr_You> main reason I'm interested is to run/maintain a greenhouse.
<drochaid> have you ever seen a bank of X10 din rail modules, ie, a full house controlling bank?
<Mr_You> nope
<drochaid> it takes up a LOT of space
<drochaid> the one I'm thinking about is a full wall in the guys Node 0
<drochaid> but then, he does have the most cabled home in the UK [cat5e]
<drochaid> all 7kms of it
<drochaid> it's only a little 3 bedroom bungalow
<Mr_You> hehe
<drochaid> Mr_You: you looking at 1-wire kit for monitoring the greenhouse?
<drochaid> and what about the control/decision module?
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<jcater> anyone know of a wireless-type webcam thingy
<drochaid> yep
<drochaid> xcam do them
<drochaid> I *think* if you serach for xcam 2 you should find them
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> searched for xcam
<jcater> exactly what I'm looking for
<jcater> thanks
<drochaid> just watch positioning, like most wirless devices, by default they're wide open to anyone with a lappy and 802.11b card
<jcater> well
<jcater> lemme tell ya what I want to do
<jcater> and it doesn't involve an unsuspecting neighbor :(
<jcater> we have two offices
<jcater> the remote office is 90 miles away
<jcater> and we are their tech support
<jcater> :(
<jcater> (thank gawd for vnc, etc :)
<jcater> today I got so pissed off
<jcater> because they jammed their printer
<jcater> and couldn't tell me what it was saying, what lights were on, etc
<jcater> we have a T1 between the two offices
Action: jcater wants to get a wireless camiera that they can move around
<jcater> and I can view from my desk :)
<jcater> it wouldn't take long at all to pay for the thing
<Mr_You> umm..
<drochaid> ah
<drochaid> LOL
<Mr_You> why on earth could they not read lights?
<jcater> because for mileage expenses, it costs the company $55 each trip
<jcater> that doesn't include the hours they actually pay me while driving (3 - 3 1/2)
<jcater> that's just mileage :)_
<Mr_You> I'd tell them "it ain't getting fixed until someone can read the lights" hehe
<jcater> Mr_You: well, it's not that easy
<jcater> they are our "sales" branch
<jcater> and "sales", well, um, let's just say they like to blame bad days
<jcater> on IT stuff
<ajmitch> haha
<Mr_You> requirment for opening aticket "what are the lights indicating?"  ;-)
<jcater> Mr_You: the brass's response is always "oh, just jump in the car and go... you haven't been up there in a month anyway... you should check everything out"
<jcater> I don't like to give them that excuse :)
<Mr_You> yeah I know what you mean.
Action: jcater can't stand that place
<jcater> normally I wouldn't mind getting a mileage check plus my normal time
<jcater> to just drive
<jcater> but sometimes there's just people that absolutely grate on your nerves
<Mr_You> I actually enjoy getting out of the office when its not mileage on my own vehicle
<jcater> normally I do too
<jcater> it's just this place......
Action: jcater shudders
<Mr_You> sales droids?  ;-)
<jcater> worse
<ajmitch> clueless sales droids?
<jcater> 40 x 18/19 yr old telemarketing chicks
<jcater> who's average turn-over is 6 weeks
<ajmitch> heh
Action: jcater grits his teeth
<jcater> that has to be the worst
<jcater> group to provide tech support to!
<ajmitch> yeah
<Mr_You> man, but they gotta be cute.
<jcater> a few.....
<jcater> but the others offset that advantage
<Mr_You> I worked at a startup that had a bunch of girls like that.. they were not cute..
<jcater> ok, in retrospect, they might be cute
<Mr_You> heh
<jcater> but that whole "cuteness" kinda goes away
<jcater> after so many calls in a day
<jcater> explaining the same thing over and over
<jcater> and over and over
<Mr_You> this is tech support for your GNUe apps that they use?
<ajmitch> makes you want to scream
<jcater> we are still in the process of converting them to GNUe
<jcater> but, yeah
<jcater> a good chunk are still on Oracle Forms
Action: jcater is agressively working on that though
<ajmitch> you usually work on GNUe within work time?
<jcater> shhhhh
<jcater> not in public
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> I usually get to put a few hours a day into GNUe
Action: jcater is Vice President/IT... I've saved a few bucks here and there to get quite a bit of freedom :)
<jcater> there's a reason you rarely see me in #gnue before 10:00 am my time :)
<ajmitch> :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> these xcams look cool
<jcater> I wish I could find one a little bigger
<jcater> just for "user friendliness"
<jcater> I really need a Sony Camcorder w/Viewport
<jcater> that also transmits X10 :)
<jcater> wow
<jcater> these things are < $100
<jcater> I'm surprised
<drochaid> aye, they're cheap
<drochaid> but not as cheap as a 320x200 webcam :)
<jcater> are 320x200 wireless?
<drochaid> no, just shite
<drochaid> I'm trying to recall someone else that was doing wireless ethernet cams
<drochaid> could have been axis, although you'd be able to buy several xcam 2s for the cost of a single axis
<Mr_You> someone came out with a new 802.11a for doing broadcast TV.. but its still new.
<jcater> gack
<jcater> I didn't want to spend that much $$$$ 
<jcater> :)
<drochaid> lol
Action: jcater is away: selling my soul to MPAA and watching Spider-Man on DVD
SachaS_away (~Sacha@dialup-196-176.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: SachaS_away -> SachaS
Action: drochaid points out to jcater and Mr_You that X10 is actually a Scottish technology, developed by pico in edinburgh in the 1970's
<drochaid> hmm, sun will be up soon, should I go to bed now?
<ajmitch> nah
<drochaid> mmm, wrong answer
<ajmitch> you asked
<drochaid> i did
<drochaid> oidche mhath
<ajmitch> night
Action: drochaid is away: tha i breagha an-diugh ... you don't hear me say THAT often :)
<ajmitch> heh
--- Sat Nov  9 2002