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<ajmitch> hi reinhard
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<reinhard> hello ajmitch
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<Arturas> Hello
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<ajmitch> wb Arturas
<Arturas> :)
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<ariel_> hi reinhard
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<ariel_> hi johannes
<johannes> hi ariel, everything ok?
<johannes> I'm leaving for lunch now --- bye !
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<ariel_> reinhard: are you there?
<reinhard> sorta
<reinhard> hi ariel_
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<ariel_> reinhard: did you succeded to read my note?
<ariel_> i tried to export to both txt and rtf, but there is a loss of tables formatting, that makes it unreadable
<reinhard> ariel_: i could read it
<reinhard> i just mailed the document to another computer where openoffice is installed and printed it out
<grib> hey gnue peoples.  what's the skinny on gtk2/libglade on win32?  is it a no-brainer yet, or even a half-brainer?  
Action: grib doesn't have too much to spare
<jamest> grib: has anyone even tried it?
<jamest> i haven't heard of anyone trying it
<ariel_> reinhard: are you still working on proposal or can i add more stuff?
<btami> jamest: i'v tried before 
<jamest> btami: really?  did it work or bomb?
<btami> work
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> did it work better than the wx driver?
<jamest> the wx driver on windows sucks
<jamest> read (our code not the wx code :)
<btami> gtk2 driver isn't full featured IIRC
<btami> but hasn't got that ugly bugs like
<btami> "focus nightmare" and "tabbed pages" problems
<jamest> btami: how hard is it to get the gtk2 driver running on any platform?
<jamest> i thought it required custom patches to gtk or something
<jamest> so avoided it for now
<btami> i'v tried it only on winXP
<jamest> what was involved?
<btami> just downloaded the necessary stuff from sourceforge
<reinhard> ariel_: i would like to talk a few points to you
<btami> and it worked
<jamest> oooooo, does it require cygwin?
<btami> no
<jamest> do you have a url
<jamest> the only thing I'm finding is gtk 2.0.6 source for windows
<jamest> and talk of using cygwin
<btami> i'm trying to find...
<btami> wait
<btami> sorry, i can't find here, but
<btami> i have all stuff at home
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<btami> and i saved that readme too
<ariel_> reinhard: go on
<btami> so first i pick-up kids, go home and after that i will tell the truth :)
<StyXman> so, geas, jforms and forms.test dissapeared from cvs?
<StyXman> (hi all)_
<btami> jamest: btw. i have a problem with pages and blocks
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<btami> StyXman: hi
<btami> i have 1 table with many fields, and
<btami> want use tabbed pages, but with only one datasource and one block
<reinhard> ariel_: sorry my telephone has decided to trout slap me today
<btami> but i failed
<StyXman> can someone confirm that?
<StyXman> btami: I have no similar problems
<btami> wait, i try it again...
<jamest> btami: I don't think it can run with a block spread across pages
<jamest> i can think of at least one point in the code where this would puke (unless someone altered the way navigation worked in my absence)
<btami> huh, i'v tried it now and failed :(
<jamest> StyXman: lemme look
Action: ariel_ is away: busy
<jamest> there was talk about moving projects not being worked on into an archive
<jamest> maybe someone did that over the weekend
<btami> jamest: so what pages are for ?
<jamest> pages are just that pages
<jamest> however they were designed with a block setting inside a page
<jamest> not spread across them
<btami> why ?
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<jamest> when I set them up i was following what I remembered about Oracles SQL*Forms
<jamest> this is the way it worked
<jamest> we're talking about doing away with that restriction
<jamest> in fact
<btami> i think pages are to split info , not for "blocks"
<jamest> back
<jamest> have fields display across pages is in the forms TODO
<jamest> the blocks nested inside pages have been around since the start
<jamest> I'm not saying were tied to that idea only that is was the 1st implementation and we've never adjusted it :)
<jamest> what we want to provide is a way to say
<jamest> this field belongs on all pages, or on pages 1, 3 and 5, or on page 1
<jamest> however I wouldn't expect this feature until after 0.5.x series is complete
<jamest> btami: have you seen the feature plans?
<btami> i think we talking diffrerent things
<btami> my problem is:
<btami> jamest: yes
<btami> what to do if i have 1 table with 100 fields
<btami> and want tu use 1 form
<jamest> right now you're going to suffer
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i see the problem
<jamest> honestly
<btami> ok
<btami> :)
<jamest> however i never thought about that size table when I did the page inside block thing
<jamest> a very nasty workaround
<jamest> make a master/detail/detail/detail setup
<jamest> all using the same table
<jamest> it would be ugly to setup, editing would be a major pita
<jamest> is this page limitation going to be a showstopper for you?
<jamest> StyXman: they are definately missing
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<StyXman> jamest: ok, zanx
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<Arturas> Hello
Action: ariel_ is back (gone 02:13:25)
<ariel_> reinhard: do you have spare time now?
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<btami> hi all
<btami> jamest: re: GTK2 on win32
<btami> see "addition to GTK2 UI install README" in gnue-dev archiv 2002.08.29
<btami> bye
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<derek> hey anyone here use digital camera under linux?
<derek> and have suggestions or know where a 'compatiability list' is
<nickr> yep
<nickr> any camera with removable media would be preferred
<derek> ooo ooo where where
<nickr> most cameras have remavble media
<derek> yeah i think i want removable media
<nickr> otherwise, you can look at the usb compat list
<nickr> http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/
<derek> well how do i know the removable media is supported?
<nickr> you look at the specs
<nickr> if it supports SmartMedia, SD, MMC, Memory Stick or Compact Flash you're good
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<nickr> any you're looking at in particular?
<derek> well im a camera idiot
<nickr> ah
<derek> i have 10% off at best buy and they have 12mos no interest on any 299.99 or more
<derek> i know i want something 2mega pixel or more
<derek> 3 megapixel preferred
<derek> the one that seems to fit that bill in the add
<nickr> so you're looking at a finepix or a midrange cannon
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<derek> Sony Cyber-Shot 3.2 Megapixel Digital Camera w/ 3X Optical/2X Digital Zoom (DSC-P71)
<derek> or
<derek> Olympus Camedia 3 Megapixel Camera with 8X Optical/3x digital C720
<derek> or
<derek> Canon Powershot 2Megapixel Digital Camera with 3x optical/2.5x digital zoom (A40)
<nickr> what the price on that olympus?
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<derek> 349.99, 499.99 and 249.99 perspectively
<nickr> I'm not a huge fan of the cybershot
<nickr> my friend has one and its very limiting
<derek> does it work under linux ?
<derek> that is most important to me :)
<nickr> I don't think its a huge issue, but yea, you just need a usb memorystick reader
<derek> the olympus looks sweet but its a bit more than i want to spend
<derek> i would like to be under 400.00
<derek> oh wait this look like one i want
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<derek> Olympus Camedia 3 Megapixel Digital Camera with 2.8x optical/3.6 digital zoom (D550)
<derek> 349.99
Action: derek realizes online i could probably save some money but the no interest is the important issue here :)
<jbailey> Any idea how many functions will just Not Work in designer if I use MySQL instead of pgsql?
<nickr> what about the fukji finepix a303?
<nickr> $299
<nickr> http://www.bestbuy.com/detail.asp?e=11177736&m=82&cat=83&scat=0
<nickr> hmm, it takes xD Picture Card..
<nickr> I'm not sure what that is
<derek> would you recommend it over the olympus and sony?
<nickr> its cheaper
<jamest> or
<jamest> grab a halfway nice  SRL
<jamest> regular camera and a scanner
<nickr> jamest: traitor
<derek> jamest: scanners under linux suck and its too much work for wife
<derek> jamest: i planned on getting both SRL and Digital
<jamest> you'll save money and the digital images are probably as good
<jbailey> derek: My scanner's been fine and Angies coping with it well.
<jbailey> It integrated very nicely into the Gimp.
<derek> but found that walmart has upload digital to them and they print on paper for .28 a print
<derek> our friend does it and they come out as nice as SRL
<nickr> http://www.bestbuy.com/detail.asp?e=11075241&m=82&cat=83&scat=84 this is the one I have
<derek> so we are going digital only
<derek> as it will be cheaper than buying film and only printing shots we really need in print will save a fortune in processing
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<derek> if i were a photo enthusiast i would still buy a SRL
<derek> nickr: at that works under linux right. ;)
<nickr> derek: yep!
<jcater> derek: never ask a hacker if something works under linux! 
<jcater> :)
<nickr> either directly with a slight kernel modification or with a CF reader
<nickr> I like CF a lot.
<nickr> slight = adding 1 line to a file and recompiling
<derek> jcater you have a digital
<derek> nickr: i woudl go CF i think
<derek> i assume thats a card reader of sorts
<nickr> CF or SmartMedia are good
<nickr> they are formats
<nickr> readers exist for them
<derek> think looks sweet BUT about twice what i want to spend
<derek> well not want to, can :)
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> its pretty good
<nickr> I have some gripes about image quality in certain conditions
<nickr> I'd rather have a Nikon D100 or Fuji S2
<nickr> someday. :Q)
<derek> http://www.bestbuy.com/detail.asp?e=11102083&m=82&cat=83&scat=84
<nickr> Yea
<nickr> like
<nickr> it probably takes godo pictures and all
<derek> is SD Secure Digital
<nickr> but the UI on the kodak's I've used is TEH SUCH
<nickr> yea
<nickr> * 16MB removable CompactFlash memory card included
<derek> you said xD isnt supported or is questionable
<nickr> I think its somewhat questionable
<derek> ok now to clarify jcaters point
<derek> how hard is it to get SmartMedia/SD/MMC/MemoryStick/CompactFlash to work?
<derek> i.e. i buy the reader 
<derek> and under debian what must i 'really' do
<nickr> modprobe usb-storage
<nickr> plug it in
<nickr> er
<nickr> modprobe scsi-mod and other things.I think in recent installations its already installed
<nickr> plug it in
<nickr> mount /dev/sda1 /mnt
<nickr> wow, hard!
<nickr> pretty much the same for the camera
<nickr> except some require kernel tweaking
<derek> well i might be bugging you later :)
<derek> i have like 2 or 3 scsi devices already in CD's
<derek> what program do you use to download?
<derek> gphoto?
<nickr> they'll just be enumerated higher
<nickr> No
<nickr> because its just a storage device I use cp
<derek> ok so nautilus
<nickr> yea
Action: derek has to get this workign for my wife
<derek> so cp isnt an option :)
<derek> i will use cp :)
<jbailey> derek: I tell you that scanners under linux are fine for non-techies now.
<jbailey> As long as they don't have to set them up at first.
<nickr> scanners are no problem
<nickr> digital photography is easier faster at the cost of quality
<derek> well great i will ask you guys later to help me get my scanner working :)
<derek> but i still will be getting a digital camera
<jbailey> nickr: Concur, but a scanner's nice for other things too.
Action: derek has other uses for scanner
<jbailey> derek: Sure.
<derek> like getting old photos digitalized
<derek> and as a 'copier' for things
Action: derek is away: store
<Arturas> who created .exe's for windows?
<jamest> Bajusz
<jamest> it's one the front page of the site 
<jamest> s/one/on
<Arturas> thank you
<ra3vat> hello all
<Arturas> hi Dmitry :)
<ra3vat> hello Arturas
<jamest> Arturas: are those files from an XP install disk?
<ajmitch> hi all
<nickr> hey ajmitch 
Action: reinhard notes that we now have non-free software in our CVS...
<ajmitch> where??
<nickr> :O
<jbailey> Stupid pgsql question.  Does gnue cope well if I set my default encoding to utf-8?
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<jbailey> Ah, interesting bug:
<ajmitch> hmm?
<ajmitch> gnue doesn't have bugs
<ajmitch> it has unplanned features
<jbailey> "No database drive found for provider type 'psycopg' - It should probably actually give an error message to the screen instead of silently spewing crap to the console.
<jbailey> Is that sort of like unplanned pregnancies?
<ajmitch> nah :)
<jbailey> So now that I'm sitting in designer...
<jbailey> How do I make it work? =)  I've logged into the database this time, but when I right click on the textbox to do a new datasource, nothing happens.
<jamest> easiest way
<jamest> file->new->from wizard
<ajmitch> or emacs file.gfd ;)
<ajmitch> is right-click on form widgets meant to work?
<jamest> i don't think we have right click menus
<jamest> you can dbl click on a widget
<jamest> to get properties box
<jbailey> Hmm.  Can you recommend which wizard for a simple one page form? =)
<jamest> how many tables?
<jbailey> Two, unless postgres supports infinitely long varchars, in which case one. =)
<jamest> it does
<jamest> well
<jamest> type text is limited to 2gb
<jamest> er
<jamest> 2tb
<jbailey> That's fine. =)
<jbailey> Even better!
<jamest> if it's 1 then do simple wizard
<jamest> as it does 1 table
<jbailey> Then one page should be fine.  The database shows no sign of normalization in its source form, so I'm trying to make the conversion easy.
Action: ajmitch thinks designer is looking sexy
<jamest> the simpleDetail will do a single master/detail
<jamest> the formBuilder will do as many tables and pages as you like
<jbailey> Woohoo!  Backtrace!
<jamest> now, you are working from an existing table structure right?
<ajmitch> jamest: think there'd be any chance of a multi-column dropdown?
<jcater> ajmitch: already there
<jbailey> I just created it a few minutes ago in phppgadmin
<ajmitch> jcater: great :)
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Action: ajmitch is just trying to throw together a quick timesheet form
Action: jcater thinks you do fk_description="col1,col2,col3"
<jamest> jbailey: backtrace?
<jbailey> What is a psycog.Error: no results to fetch error?
<jbailey> I got this when I clicked "continue" after giving my form title and picking my connection.
<jamest> it's saying that a query resulting in nothing returned
<jamest> which is wacked in the wizard as it uses pgsql system tables
<jbailey> Lemme exit and start again in case I did something earlier that screwed it up.
<jamest> ok
<jbailey> Into gnue-designer we go. =)
<jbailey> file, new from wizard
<jbailey> simple form.
<jcater> jbailey: oooooo
<jcater> check your psycopg version
<jbailey> Oh, this time it popped up the login box for the database.
<jcater> if it's 1.0.13
<jcater> we have an issue
<jamest> s/we/you
<jamest> :)
<jcater> yeah
<jbailey> 1.0.13-1
<jcater> boing!
<jbailey> Too old, too new?
<jcater> too new
<jbailey> Joy.
<jcater> either they changed the API
<jcater> or have a serious bug
<jamest> one thing that rocks about having 4 different pgsql drivers
<jcater> given the 1.0.12 -> 1.0.13 change
<jamest> is you have 4 different interpretations of the python db api
<jcater> I couldn't imagine them doing a major API chang
<jbailey> (rocks like good rock and roll, or rocks like sucks rocks soaked in cow piss?)
<jcater> jamest: yeah, but now 5 :)
<jcater> as apparently they changed their interpretation
<jcater> jbailey: I have the 1.0.12-1 debs at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/debian/
<jcater> this sucks though
<jcater> it sucks the rocks socked in cow piss
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> this is newer than woody
<jbailey> Try three, coming up.
<nickr> piss
<jamest> you using testing/sid in production?
<jbailey> this is my workstation.
<jamest> ah
<jbailey> The database is on another computer.
<jbailey> Be and the other guy running Linux here use sid on our desks, though.
<jbailey> EVeryone else will use win32 client or phpforms.
<jbailey> Hot damn this does work better.
<jbailey> And the whole apps isn't as painfully slow, too.
<jbailey> "Incubator import failed" on the desktop window.
<jbailey> The rest of the app appears to be hung.
<jamest> sigh
<jbailey> Oh, it came back.
<jbailey> Is there a good way to make the input boxes more than 0 pixels wide?
Action: derek is back (gone 02:01:18)
<derek> nickr: i went with the kodak.... 
<nickr> derek: GAH
<nickr> derek: after my dire warnings?
<derek> the olympus had sucky interface and felt 'cheap' (with kids thats important issue)
<derek> the sony was very nice
<derek> nice interface
<derek> wife liked it better than kodak interface (though she didnt mind kodak ui)
<derek> kodak was 50 more
<derek> BUT
<derek> it was 4.0 instead of 3.0 megapixels
<nickr> ja
<derek> and it took compact flash insetead of memorystick
<nickr> yea
<derek> and the compact flash was WAY cheaper
<nickr> not really much diff
<nickr> really depends on where you buy it
<derek> i.e. i got the reader and 256mb of flash for cheaper than a 128mb stick
<derek> nickr: yes long term i agree
<derek> but again no interest was a factor
<nickr> they have 128mb sticks for $60 at costco here
<derek> all in all it was up to wife
<ajmitch> hey derek
<derek> she liked both the kodak and the sony
<derek> oh other factor
<ajmitch> jbailey: they're 0 wide in forms or designer, or both? :)
<derek> kodak had builtin batteries (with charger)
<jbailey> DEsigner.
<ajmitch> jbailey: object navigator
<jbailey> But I can't imagine how I am supposed to grab them and drag them around like this. =)
Action: derek also didnt hear your dire warnings
<derek> you said something about good quality but not great interface
<ajmitch> jbailey: object nav is in the tools window
Action: derek hopes that was only yuck
<jbailey> The default width is -5 for these?
<jbailey> woo.
<ajmitch> jbailey: uhh, shouldn't be :)
<ajmitch> you acn right click on things in tree & edit properties
<nickr> derek: it uses AAs no?
<derek> nope CRV3 lithium
<nickr> GAH
<nickr> suck
<derek> gah?
<derek> suck?
<jbailey> There's no 'save' button on the property inspector.
<jbailey> Is that expected?
<derek> jbailey: why woudl there be?
<derek> if you save the form the property selection you have made will be saved
<nickr> getting something that runs on NiMH AAs is great. You get a gew sets on the cheap
<nickr> and a couple chargers
<jbailey> derek: Because when I change the length from -5 to 10 and close the window it doesn't change.
<jbailey> So I can only assume there's a missing 'apply' or 'save' button or something.
<jbailey> Oh, I see.  I had to change 'lenght' & maximum length from -5.
<ajmitch> jcater: i thought that bug where property navigator didn't work with scrollbars on screen was fixed? :)
<jcater> is it not?
<jcater> worked for me
<jcater> (tm)
<ajmitch> jcater: doesn't seem to work here (ran setup-cvs.py a few min ago)
<ajmitch> what is appropriate input mask for date entry? :)
<jbailey> Which element contains the gray box width in the background.
<jcater> BUGGER
<jbailey> It doesn't seem to support a right-click option.
<jbailey> In fact right clicking on the background hangs designer for 10 to 15 seconds.
Action: jcater runs screaming into the street!
Action: ajmitch feels sorry for bringing up that bug
<ajmitch> jcater: when did you commit the fix?
<jcater> it's been a few weeks
<jamest> 0 wide?
<jamest> wtf?
<jbailey> Hmm, at this speed It hink it will take me 2 hours to correct all of the -5 entries to being a reasoable length.  I'll have to do this another time.  Oh well.
<jcater> how did you get -5 sizes?
<jbailey> That's what the wizard did by default.
<jamest> jbailey: the default size is based upon the size reported by the database
<jcater> how fscking bizarre
<jamest> I'm running the 1.0.8 pyscopg from debian
<jamest> woody
<jcater> I use 1.0.12
<jamest> and it's fine
<jamest> hang on
<jamest> jbailey: you have a working mysql setup too?
<ajmitch> so sid's psycopg could be more broken than you think :)
<jamest> as this is not a positive note to end on 
<jbailey> jamest: No, I was concerned that someone said that some queries would silently break without subselects being available.
<jamest> no, query by detail would break
<jamest> that feature is < 1 week old :)
<jbailey> Ah, nice. =)
<jamest> std forms should work fine
<jbailey> Perhaps I'll try it with mysql then in a bit.
<jbailey> I need to do some paperwork and take lunch soon, though.
<jamest> you can also try other postgresql drivers
<jamest> popy, pgsql (postgresql in our connections.conf)
<jamest> they seem to be in the newer debians
Chipaca (~john@ADSL-200-59-86-17.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: Chipaca waltzes in
<ajmitch> ah, found what i need (block with multiple rows
<Chipaca> is there any way currently implemented or currently dreamed up for specifying "total" columns in the datasource?
<jamest> yeah
<derek> nickr: ok scsi-mod and usb-storage loaded
<ajmitch> like a psuedo-field? :)
<derek> card inserted and such
<derek> but
<jamest> a field not tied to a datasource with a named trigger tied to the fields that effect the total
<derek> latitude:/# mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/camera/
<derek> mount: you must specify the filesystem type
<derek> latitude:/# 
<derek> am i missing something?
<derek> jcater / jamest / ajmitch any suggestions?
<jamest> an entry in /etc/fstab
<jbailey> bbiab
jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<derek> what is steh file type?
<ajmitch> umm
<Chipaca> jamest: but wouldn't that still bring all the fields?
<ajmitch> gar, adding a dropdown brokew
<jcater> jamest: I think he's asking for the equiv of select field, sum(total) from table group by field
<ajmitch> DB000:     self.__getExistingDatasources()
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/opt/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/forms/wizards/AddDropDown.py", line 315, in __getExistingDatasources
<ajmitch> DB000:     self.__datasourceMap[child.name] = child
<ajmitch> DB000: TypeError: sequence index must be integer
<Chipaca> derek: dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/tmp/q bs=1m count=1 ; file /tmp/q
<derek> Chipaca: ?
<jcater> gack
<jcater> ajmitch: what form is that on?
<ajmitch> jcater: one i'm putting together
<Chipaca> derek: so you find out the filesystem type
Action: derek doesnt know what that does so im nervous to do it
<ajmitch> that occured when i trying adding a dropdown
<Chipaca> derek: reads the first megabyte (overkill, make it 1k) from the disk and looks at it
<derek> latitude:/mnt# dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/tmp/q bs=1m count=1 ; file /tmp/q
<derek> dd: invalid number `1m'
<derek> /tmp/q: can't stat `/tmp/q' (No such file or directory).
<derek> latitude:/mnt# 
<Chipaca> derek: sorry, make it 1k
<derek> latitude:/mnt# dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/tmp/q bs=1k count=1 ; file /tmp/q
<derek> dd: opening `/dev/sda1': No such device or address
<derek> /tmp/q: can't stat `/tmp/q' (No such file or directory).
<derek> latitude:/mnt# 
<Chipaca> (should've been "1M" to be 1megabyte, but that's overkill)
<Chipaca> ENXIO!
<Chipaca> loveley
<Chipaca> derek: what's supposed to be there?
<derek> um
<derek> a compactflash card on usb
Action: derek is thinking nickr left out some magic step to make usb-storage actually use scsi
<Chipaca> derek: cfdisk /dev/sda
<Chipaca> derek: see if there are partitions there
<derek> gak
<derek> Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
<derek> sd_mod                 10556   0  (autoclean) (unused)
<derek> usb-storage            48000   0  (unused)
<derek> usbcore                48192   0  [usb-storage]
<derek> scsi_mod               84984   1  [sd_mod usb-storage]
<derek> why is it saying usb-storage is unused
Action: ajmitch plays with forms
<Chipaca> derek: unplug and replug the thing, see the logs to check it's not still 'unclaimed'
<derek> plug and replug still says unused
<Chipaca> jamest, jcater: similar to sum() thing, but I don't want to bring in the whole thing from the db, I'd really like the dbdriver to be smart enough to pass the sum on to the db :)
<derek> Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
<derek> sd_mod                 10556   0  (autoclean) (unused)
<derek> usb-storage            48000   0  (unused)
<derek> usbcore                48192   0  [usb-storage]
<derek> scsi_mod               84984   1  [sd_mod usb-storage]
<Chipaca> jamest, jcater: (if you meant sum from report)
<ajmitch> gah, need to build database table before trying to use form :)
<Chipaca> derek: what did the logs say?
<jcater> Chipaca: pass the sum TO the db?
<Chipaca> derek: is that all of usb? you're missing usb-uci
<Chipaca> jcater: if at all possible, yes
<derek> what is usb-uci
<Chipaca> derek: uhci
<derek> i didnt see that as an option
<jcater> Chipaca: oh, I didn't mean Report's <summ> thing
<jcater> I meant, something like <entry field="sum(myfield)"> kind of thing
<Chipaca> jcater: oh. I mean something like select sum(foo) from bar where baz=3;
<jcater> (only that doesn't work)
<Chipaca> jcater: I thought maybe you had something like <datasource><field name="foo_sum" procedure="sum(foo)"/></> :)
<jcater> not yet
<derek> Chipaca: i loaded uhci and still no dice (after unplug/replug)
<derek> Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
<derek> usb-uhci               21028   0  (unused)
<derek> sd_mod                 10556   0  (autoclean) (unused)
<derek> usb-storage            48000   0  (unused)
<derek> usbcore                48192   0  [usb-uhci usb-storage]
<derek> scsi_mod               84984   2  [sd_mod usb-storage]
<Chipaca> derek: remove all usb-related modules first
<derek> Chipaca: ?
<derek> can you provide the logic?
lupo (~lupo@pD95423A1.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<lupo> hi
<derek> so i can understand as i will need to do this on more than one box
<Chipaca> derek: hold on, let me get the names straight
<lupo> anyone of you who also has submitted projects to savannah and got them rejected despite correct copyrights?
<jcater> lupo: yes
<derek> i have rejected projects on savannah despice correct copyrights
<lupo> i ask myself whether this is new savannah policy
<derek> as its more than copyright, license
<lupo> "reject everything"
<ajmitch> heh
<Chipaca> derek: question, are these debian machines?
<lupo> derek: let's assume correct license
<derek> well let me rephrase that, i have rejected 'gnu project applications' even with propery copyright
<ajmitch> complain to savannah-hackers@gnu.org if you feel it's not right :)
<derek> Chipaca: yes
<Chipaca> derek: maybe just installing hotplug will get you rolling
<lupo> savannah-hackers@gnu.org seems to be the problem
<ajmitch> lupo: yes, the volunteers that do the project approval might be overly strict
<derek> Chipaca: removed all usb
<Chipaca> derek: anyhow, you need USB support (usbcore), support for your host controller (usb-uhci, uhci, or usb-ohci), the device type driver (scsi-whatever), the driver for the usb-to-device-type (usb-storage), and possibly the driver for the particular usb device you have if it's not "standard"
<derek> now give me step by step
<Chipaca> derek: apt-get install hotplug
<Chipaca> derek: uninstall the thing before hotplug gets up and running
<Chipaca> derek: plug it back in once it is
<derek> ok so load all modules
<derek> then unplug
<lupo> i have recently submitted an XML-to-Videotext converter and got it rejected despite correct copyright notices
<lupo> and COPYRIGHT file
<derek> then install hotplug
<derek> then plug it back in
Action: ajmitch cries
<Chipaca> derek: no, hotplug should take care of the modules part on its own :)
Action: ajmitch reminds himself not to learn without wizards in the future ;)
Action: Chipaca consoles ajmitch
<derek> oh crap i installed them and am apt-getting hotplu
<derek> will that be a problem
Action: ajmitch swears profusely
<Chipaca> derek: heh, probably not, but you could remove them again just in case :)
Action: Chipaca hands ajmitch a 6-pack
<ajmitch> this probably would have taken 2 minutes with the wizard ;)
<ajmitch> at least i'm learning...
<ajmitch> hah! it worked
<derek> Chipaca: now things are terminally fscked
<derek> it wont let me uninstall usbcore
<derek> Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
<derek> usbcore                48192   1 
<derek> sd_mod                 10556   0  (autoclean) (unused)
<derek> scsi_mod               84984   1  [sd_mod]
<derek> af_packet              11432   4  (autoclean)
<derek> apm                     8892   2  (autoclean)
<derek> ds                      6464   2 
<derek> yenta_socket            8384   2 
<derek> pcmcia_core            38656   0  [ds yenta_socket]
<derek> xircom_cb               5728   1 
<derek> maestro                25664   0  (unused)
<derek> soundcore               3556   2  [maestro]
<derek> rtc                     5368   0  (autoclean)
<derek> unix                   13316  46  (autoclean)
<derek> ide-disk                6592   2  (autoclean)
<derek> ide-probe-mod           7968   0  (autoclean)
<derek> ide-mod               129420   2  (autoclean) [ide-disk ide-probe-mod]
<derek> ext3                   56544   1  (autoclean)
<ajmitch> gah
Action: ajmitch endures a flood from derek
<derek> jbd                    34968   1  (autoclean) [ext3]
<derek> wtf is keeping me from removing soundcore?
<derek> er usbcore
<ajmitch> you have some usb device in use
<ajmitch> i presume :)
Action: Chipaca loves his laggy link at times
<Chipaca> derek: did you plug the usb thing in?
<derek> sigh
<derek> latitude:/mnt# /etc/init.d/hotplug start
<derek> Starting hotplug subsystem: usb.
<derek> latitude:/mnt# lsmod
<derek> Module                  Size  Used by    Not tainted
<derek> usb-storage            48000   0  (unused)
<derek> usb-uhci               21028   0  (unused)
<derek> usbcore                48192   1  [usb-storage usb-uhci]
<derek> sd_mod                 10556   0  (autoclean) (unused)
<derek> scsi_mod               84984   2  [usb-storage sd_mod]
<derek> still comes back unused
<derek> i started hotplug w/o device plugged in
<derek> then plugged in device
Action: derek suspect i will be told i got the ONE compact flasher reader on the market that doesnt work on linux
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: Chipaca scratches an ich
<Chipaca> derek: ok, lets just do it by hand?
<Chipaca> derek: *sigh* just stop hotplug
<Chipaca> derek: unplug the usb thing
<Chipaca> rmmod everything, from top to bottom
<ajmitch> the dual life of #gnuenterprise - on one hand, people work on GNUe.
<ajmitch> on the other, people help derek fix his computer :)
<derek> ok hotplug was what kept usbcore upu
<Chipaca> ajmitch: heh
<derek> ok everything rmmod'd
<derek> no usb plugged in
<derek> Chipaca: ok im ready
<Chipaca> derek: ok, modprobe uhci
<Chipaca> derek: tail -f /var/log/syslog
<Chipaca> derek: plug da thing in
<Chipaca> derek: paste away
<ajmitch> warn us first
<ajmitch> so we can avoid the flood
<Chipaca> derek: and paste away v2 
<lupo> btw, can someone tell me what the fix for the property inspector bug was? (_the_ one line)
Action: lupo is reading an overly long KC... poor psu :)
<ajmitch> lupo: i was wondering too :)
<jcater> lupo / ajmitch: http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/gnue/gnue/designer/src/PropertyEditor.py.diff?r1=1.27&r2=1.28&diff_format=h
<lupo> jcater: wait
<lupo> jcater: AAARRRRGGGHHHHLLLLSSSS!
<jcater> um
<jcater> ok
<ajmitch> impressive
<ajmitch> so that resizes the dialog to match?
<jcater> it resized the grid to match the notebook control
<jcater> only we were grabbing the outer dimensions of the notebook
<ajmitch> ok
<jcater> not the inner
<ajmitch> hmm
<derek> jcater: my 3 year old was with her aunt last night
<derek> they were going to in and out burger (a burger joint) at like 11pm
<derek> uncle asked her what she wanted from there
<derek> her response
<derek> "a donut"
<derek> when told they didnt have donuts she said
<derek> "well if they dont have donuts I GUESS i will just have a hamburger and french fries"
<ajmitch> haha
<jcater> rofl
<jamest> how long has jcater been w/ us now?
<jcater> 2 yrs come the new year
<jamest> ok, i'd be worried if it was over 3 years
<Chipaca> derek: that's the problem
<jcater> what?
<jcater> the 3 year old daughter?
<Chipaca> jcater: sorry, that was private :)
<Chipaca> jcater: /me is trying to get derek's usb thing working
<jcater> ah
Action: Chipaca considers the futility
<jcater> well "that's the problem"
<jcater> after the daughter comment
<jcater> made me wonder if you'd traced it
<jcater> to peanut butter in the USB port
<Chipaca> jcater: ROTFL
<lupo> lol
<Chipaca> jcater: peanut butter is nothing
<Chipaca> jcater: you should see dulce de leche in usb slots
<Chipaca> jcater: imagine a runny peanut butter
<derek> its that darn tit shaped bread that is clogging the usb port
<Chipaca> umm
<lupo> jamest: reg testing framework, what are your requirements? how should something look like?
<lupo> is it possible that debian 3 has ruled out python2.1 wxgtk libs?
<lupo> do current gnue tools now work with python2.2 from woody?
<lupo> (or do they still mess with unicode?)
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<lupo> the guys in 
<lupo> #debian are so unfriendly
<Chipaca> lupo: that happens in overpopulated areas like ny
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<btami> hi all
<lupo> Chipaca: NY?
Nick change: laurie -> dneighbo
<Chipaca> lupo: or ba, for that matter
<lupo> well
<lupo> that's one of the risks you take
<btami> huhuuu, finally i can stick attachments into DCL tickets (you can see in #159 and #162)
<dsmith> dneighbo: What are you trying to do with usb? (over in #debian)
<dneighbo> kick its fscking teeth in
<dneighbo> thats what im wanting to do with usb :0
<dneighbo> dsmith: basically i have new digital camera
<dneighbo> i was told if i got compact flash i should be pretty good with a reader regardless of camera
<dneighbo> unfortunately the 'reader' isnt working AT ALL
<dneighbo> im game to getting camera or reader to work
<dneighbo> at this point it seems to find the device just istn making it scsi
<dsmith> Hmm. I receently plugged in a usb cdrom burner into my laptop.
<nickr> dneighbo: what device is it?
<nickr> what camera too
<dneighbo> camera Kodak EasyShare DX4900 
<dsmith> dneighbo: You do need scsi enabled in your kernel, and some other stuff too. Not needed are any scsi contollers
<dneighbo> reader: PNY CompactFlash USB card reader
<nickr> ah
<nickr> CF Meudia Shuttle?
<nickr> or Compactflash Reader
<nickr> http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/showdev.php?id=576 
<nickr> hm
<dsmith> dneighbo: You will need CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_* and CONFIG_USB_DEVICEFS
<dneighbo> dsmith: with debian?
<dsmith> dneighbo: Yep.
<nickr> dsmith: quiet you
<nickr> http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/showdev.php?id=1318
<nickr> weird
<dneighbo> nickr: so you telling me this reader wont work?
<nickr> dneighbo: Looks that way.
<dneighbo> what about camera
<dsmith> dneighbo: Sorry.
<nickr> dneighbo: see second link
<nickr> says 'supported by gphoto2'
<nickr> which is odd
<dneighbo> why is that odd?
<nickr> gphoto2 IS in unstable though
Action: dneighbo suspects (100 dollar bet) that its supported under gphoto2 only ifyou have the 80 base i refused to buy
<dneighbo> sucky thing is that the reader i got was free
<dneighbo> and part of why i went with this camera over one that took memorystick memory
<dneighbo> i will try gphoto2 directly with camera
<nickr> what the fuck
<nickr> dneighbo: yea, some readers are good (eg usb-storage devices) and some just suck
<dneighbo> OUCH
<Chipaca> this one is an usb-storage, shows up in /proc/scsi/usb-storage, but not in /proc/scsi/scsi
<dneighbo> word to the wise
<dneighbo> if you have a LONG goatee do not get it near the exhuast fan of a pc
<Chipaca> "never plug an usb device into the mains"?
<dneighbo> getting it caught hurts
<Chipaca> oh, THAT
<Chipaca> :)
<dsmith> Ouch!
<nickr> dneighbo: so you don't have a usb cable for the camera itself?
<dneighbo> yeah
<dneighbo> im downloading gphoto2 now
<nickr> yea you don't or yes you do?
<nickr> you need gtkam also
jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise.
<nickr> gphoto2 doesn't have a graphical interface
<dneighbo> yeah i do
<dneighbo> no gui, ouchie
<dneighbo> gtkam
<dneighbo> ok getting that too
Action: dneighbo REALLY hopes i can get something easy for wife to use
<dneighbo> or im having to install windows :(
<jcater> rofl
Action: jcater thinks its funny
<dneighbo> i dont
<jcater> you think it'll work under windows
<dneighbo> jcater: thats the problem
Action: jcater HATES setting up digital cameras for friends
<dneighbo> its an illusion
<nickr> gtkam has a gimp plugin too
<dneighbo> it will install and work
<jcater> on their win32 machines
<dneighbo> but then will stop in 2 days
<jcater> dude
<dneighbo> and be irrevocably fixable
<jcater> you'll smack me for this
<jcater> but you need to get your wife a mac
<jcater> and be done with it
Action: jcater hides
Action: Chipaca smacks jcater
<lupo> ?
<dsmith> os X mac
<dsmith> good
<dneighbo> libgtk2.0-0 l
<dneighbo> jcater: if i had money i would consider it
<dneighbo> she has habits of a mac user
<dneighbo> i.e. artsy stuff
<Chipaca> jcater: would the mac be for when you push her out in the rain due to her ridiculous demands wrt computers?
<dneighbo> wants to print cards and photos and stuff
<dsmith> mac, definitly
<dneighbo> guess im getting gtk2 :)
<jcater> I can see the switch commercial now
<dsmith> It's all FreeBSD now
<jcater> "My husband used to make me us Linux"
<dsmith> Sort of.
<jcater> "But now I just plug my digital camera in"
<jcater> "And it just works"
<jcater> "Sort of"
<nickr> hah I was wondering why gtkam was running so slow
<jcater> "Well, 90% of the time"
<jcater> "But it's much cooler"
<nickr> and It turns out that I'm running it remoteely over the cable modem
<nickr> from my home machine
<nickr> the wonders of remote desktop.
<jcater> "I'm Laurie.... and I switched"
<jcater> then there's derek's switch
<jcater> "My name is Derek"
<nickr> and I broke it.
<jcater> "I used to put my wife on a linux computer"
<jcater> "But the couch got too uncomfortable at night"
<jcater> "Now my back doesn't hurt in the morning"
<jcater> "And I get nookie again"
<dneighbo> ok gtkam and gphoto2 installed
<dneighbo> any tips
<jcater> "That's why I switched"
<nickr> dneighbo: gtkam, add camera
<nickr> dneighbo: select camera model from list
<nickr> er, you should probably make sure its plugged into the usb
<nickr> before
<dneighbo> hmm its plugged in but its not finding it
<dneighbo> is there way to view usb devices
<Chipaca> dneighbo: mount usbdevfs /proc/bus/usb -t usbdevfs
<dneighbo> hot damn it shows in usbview!
<dneighbo> snot
<nickr> dneighbo: detect in add camera doesn't find it?
<dneighbo> it autodected it
<dneighbo> nickr: it does now
<dneighbo> i started hotplug
<nickr> sweet
<dneighbo> unplugged and replugged
<dneighbo> and it seems to be working
<dneighbo> now to try to get images :)
<dneighbo> ok 
<dneighbo> this is EASIER than windows
<dneighbo> gtkam + hotplug
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> is a 30 second setup
<nickr> incredible.
Action: dneighbo kicks all small children and dogs in sight
<Chipaca> dneighbo: usbdevfs mounted? or without that?
<nickr> hotplug automatically mounts that I think.
<dneighbo> Chipaca: not mounted
<ajmitch> lol
<Chipaca> nickr: not for dneighbo, it doesn't :)
<dneighbo> well at least not manually
<ajmitch> so now it's working? :)
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> direct from camera
<nickr> sweet
<dsmith> When I plugged in that usb cdrom burner, it just worked.  cdrecord found it with no problems whatever.
<dneighbo> the kodak dx4900 is supported on debian :)
Action: ajmitch only has one usb device he relies on absolutely
<dneighbo> nickr: you mentioned a gimp something
<dsmith> But it took hours and hours to get it to work under windows.
<ajmitch> i _have_ to have usb for my internet connection :)
<nickr> dneighbo: gtkam-gimp
<ajmitch> so the free reader thing is no good? :)
<nickr> I'll sell you my extar one, all you have to do is bend the little pins back into place
<nickr> :O
<dneighbo> must one be root?
<nickr> you can adjust something or other and not have to be
<nickr> or you can make a launcher that uses sudo with no password
<nickr> teehee
<dneighbo> hmm second option sounds good
<dneighbo> i need to look into sudo
<nickr> its probably better to fix the perms
<nickr> because then the gimp plugin will work right
<nickr> and you won't have random files owned by root
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<jcater> http://www.kurthanson.com/archive/news/102902/index.asp
<jcater> (the last article on that page)
<dneighbo> how do you get the gimp plugin to work?
<Chipaca> what's a generic name for IOU-type documents?
<Chipaca> dneighbo: apt-get install task-universe
<ajmitch> an excuse to visit people & demand money?
<Chipaca> in spanish they'd probably be 'obligations'
<ajmitch> be sure to take along a baseball bat :)
<nickr> dneighbo: dunno.
<Chipaca> I mean the legal IOUs that you sign and are upholdable in court
<nickr> dneighbo: ah, its only for gimp1.3
Action: ajmitch does not know
<nickr> dneighbo: so it'll be in gimp if you run gimp1.3
<nickr> gimp1.3 has certain ... instabilities though.
<jcater> Chipaca: contract? loan?
<Chipaca> jcater: it's less than those
<dneighbo> well i have 1.3
<dneighbo> how do i use it :)
<nickr> are you running gimp-1.3
<dneighbo> head in ass
<dneighbo> no
<dneighbo> i installed it
<dneighbo> but gimp runs 1.2 not 1.3
<nickr> yea, run gimp-1.3
<ajmitch> gimp-1.3
<dneighbo> yah starting now
<nickr> wow, this is slow over a remote connection
<dneighbo> btw: battery TYPE 
<dneighbo> 1.2 AA Ni-MH batteries 
<dneighbo> isnt that what you suggested?
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> it can use that or CRV3
<dneighbo> ok gimp 1.3 up but not seeing readily how to get to gtkam
<nickr> you'd think it'd be under Acquire
<dneighbo> thats what i thought
<dneighbo> but dont see it tere
<nickr> I don't see it anywhere, hmm
<nickr> maybe you neude to run gtkam first and save the settings under the user that runs gimp also
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<dneighbo> hmmmm
<dneighbo> i ran gtkam and gimp both as root
<dneighbo> its ok gtkam should be enough
<nickr> hmm
<nickr> okay
<dneighbo> although my camera saves images at like 2644x something huge
<dneighbo> almost crashed X viewing them
<nickr> yea, they are big
<nickr> unless you're doing something exquisitly silly, it shouldn't crash X though.
<nickr> but look who I'm talking to
<ajmitch> heh
<Chipaca> "obligation" it is! (webster 1913, # 5)
<nickr> In Other News, I want to make a list of requirements for my revised docustore design. Any help?
<dneighbo> yeha
<Chipaca> dneighbo: apt-get install feh
<nickr> dneighbo: hm?
<nickr> I prefer gqview
<Chipaca> nickr: feh blew me away with it's speed
<Chipaca> nickr: especially when compared with imagemagick :)
<dsmith> Well, yeah.
<nickr> everything is fast compared to imagemagick
<dsmith> The onlything slower than imagemagick is staroffice.
<dsmith> ;^)
<Chipaca> but actually feh is fast on its own right
<Chipaca> as in I look at a 14000x14800 pic in under 10 secs
<nickr> thats a big picture
<Chipaca> http://200.59.86.175/~john/map.png
<Chipaca> or .jpg for a smaller one (only 4MB)
<nickr> this one of those pictures that'll crash galeon
<nickr> I ask as the galeon error dialog pops up
<dsmith> How does feh compare to xv ?
<ajmitch> mmmm, openoffice.org running on an old pentium, with 16MB of ram ;)
Action: dsmith weeps for ajmitch
<ajmitch> Chipaca: how much ram do you have, too?
<Chipaca> ajmitch: 640MB
<Chipaca> dsmith: feh is free
<dsmith> Chipaca: True
<dneighbo> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/ximian_barbie.jpg to prove its true there is a ximian ken doll
<nickr> sick
<dneighbo> and twisted
<dneighbo> might i add
<dneighbo> btw: my children did this
<dneighbo> they took a rupert doll (ximian monkey)
<dneighbo> and a few days later i went in and ken was wearing ruperts shirt
<Chipaca> dneighbo: the "sick and twisted" fits in just fine
<dneighbo> ok enough playing time for real work
<nickr> so ken and rupert were ... uhh
<nickr> y'know
<ajmitch> that scares me
<dsmith> Chipaca: http://200.59.86.175/~john/map.png crashed dillo
<nickr> crashes galeon too
Action: nickr wgetting
<Chipaca> dsmith: I think your kernel crashed dillo (as in OOM: kill the sucker)
<ajmitch> wouldn't surprise me
<ajmitch> i have a 9.3Kx9.3K image here that uses a lot of ram to open
<nickr> might crash galeon because of my display situation
<ajmitch> remote?
<Chipaca> nickr: galeon is very sucky wrt images, that's a mozilla thing
<nickr> yea
<nickr> true
<Chipaca> nickr: even the jpg will crash galeon
<ajmitch> gqview up to 570MB...
<dsmith> What the heck is that thing?
<ajmitch> > 700MB...
<Chipaca> dsmith: a map
<Chipaca> dsmith: of america
<Chipaca> dsmith: compelte with sea monsters and land giants
<Chipaca> dsmith: circa 1500
<ajmitch> lol
<dsmith> It wouldn't have Ohio on it then. :(
<ajmitch> gqview has peaked at 710MB for this image i have :)
<Chipaca> dsmith: probably not, as the names of the places are still mostly spanish
Action: ajmitch ctrl-c's it :)
<Chipaca> ajmitch: now try feh
<ajmitch> pity i only have 512MB of RAM at the moment
<ajmitch> not bad, feh only uses 336MB for the same image
<dsmith> What kind of connection is 200.59.86.175 ?
<ajmitch> better at scrolling too
<nickr> the jpeg loaded instantly for me in gqview
<dsmith> feh is just a thin wrapper around imlib, iirc.
<nickr> zoom and scroll instantly
<nickr> tha map is way cool
<Chipaca> dsmith: 256/128 ADSL
<dsmith> I'm only getting it at 6 kB a sec. and I'm on dual ds3's.
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<Chipaca> dsmith: makes sense, as there's probably 4 people pulling stuff right now (all in this channel :)
<dsmith> Chipaca: Not me anymore.
<Chipaca> dsmith: :)
<Chipaca> dsmith: imlib2
<ajmitch> the .png is a little big to download ;)
<Chipaca> ajmitch: you can get it from the library of congress, but only in chunks
<ajmitch> bbl
<dsmith> Chipaca: Did you glue it together with imagemagick ?
<Chipaca> dsmith: yes
<dsmith> It might be slow, but it sure can do a *lot* of stuff.
<Chipaca> dsmith: slow and memory hungry, but it's the kind of project I'd pitch in to. Does lots of stuff, reads and writs nearly anything, etc etc
<Chipaca> dsmith: I needed 2GB of swap to build that image :)
<Chipaca> dsmith: it was    s  l  o  w
<dsmith> Chipaca: yep.  I used it to cut out the images in wmMoonClock to make the images in gkrellmoon. Very scriptable.
<Chipaca> dsmith: so we agree it sucks in a cool way :)
<dsmith> Yes.
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Action: dneighbo is away: picking up kids
<chillywilly> beats dropping them off at the pool... ;)
<chillywilly> er, then again why would you want to pick them up?!?
<chillywilly> ew
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<nickr> what is that thing you check for in a python script to see if you're being imported or run directly?
<jcater> if __name__ == '__main__':
<jcater>   blah
<nickr> excellent, thanks
<nickr> python, oh how I love thee
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<nickr> gah!
<nickr> good lesson not to use try's unless you're catching a specific exception
<nickr> I just spent 40 minutes debugging variable name typos
<nickr> it took using pdb to actually find the orrors because I had forgotton that I wrapped the call in a try further up the object chain
<nickr> DOH
<jamest> nickr: you can also have an open try always dump the err mesg too
<nickr> that would've been helpful
<nickr> the 
<nickr> pdb is nice though
<nickr> tracing into it its clear where the error was.
<chillywilly> having fun nickr :)?
Action: chillywilly is writing evil c++ ;)
<ajmitch> eeeeevil
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Action: chillywilly hisss
<ajmitch> if C is a dog, then C++ is the result of nailing another 4 legs onto that dog
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<chillywilly> ajmitch: c++ is groovy
<chillywilly> if python is a snake...
<ajmitch> c++ is perverse
<chillywilly> oh wait...
<chillywilly> yea and how much of it have you written?
<ajmitch> ~100 lines ;)
Action: ajmitch just likes to diss it cos you're using it
<chillywilly> that figures
<jamest> ajmitch: 100 lines......isn't that like 10 fully featured  python apps?
<jamest> oooo c++
<jamest> that's like a header file right?
<chillywilly> uh, no
<chillywilly> slap yourself
<jamest> <slap>
<jamest> my bad....that's the start of the autoconf setup 
<chillywilly> you're going to rip on autoconf? what do you have that is better disutils?
<jamest> lol, no
<jamest> i can't even claim autoconf sucks less
<jamest> as it doesn't
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<chillywilly> autoconf is easy, all it consists of is a macro langauge and shell scripts
<jamest> which changes at random during it's development
<jamest> oh AM_FOOBATE_DA_BAR?  That's a version #.#.1 setting
<chillywilly> I don't think so
<dsmith> autoconf is a maze of twisty little config files, all different
<jamest> you need AC_FOOBATE_DA_BAR?  Introdced in #.#.2
<jamest> dude, those changes were eating my lunch when I used C exclusively
<jamest> maybe I just got unluck but it was one of my #1 gripes about it
<jamest> that and it's is a maze of twisty little config files, all different
<jamest> thanks dsmith :)
<chillywilly> that's developer's fault
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<jamest> but distutils is no better
<jamest> it's my fault they changed the config files?
<chillywilly> no they libs you depended on the autoconf macros don't change much between releases
<jamest> ah, ok
<chillywilly> and when they do it is a pretty major revision
<jamest> all I know is it was driving me nuts
<jamest> but now that's distutils job
<chillywilly> I had to change once when I started sing commoncpp from cvs
<chillywilly> using
<dsmith> jamest: What's distutils?
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> it's the python building shtuff
<ajmitch> it's beautiful
<chillywilly> ./setup.py build
<chillywilly> ./setup.py install
<dsmith> Oh, ok.
<chillywilly> uh, it's not that great
<jamest> distutils is bad
<jamest> it's original goal was to provide an equiv to autoconf
Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid
<jamest> but lurking on the lists it was very aparent that  that was no longer a goal
<jamest> they made something ok for installing python modules
<jamest> but not apps
<dsmith> the IDEA's are great, but auto* is an ugly wart that keeps getting ulier.
<chillywilly> all build systems suck
<jamest> and even python modules are iffy
<chillywilly> dsmith: I find it rather easy to write my own macros when I need to
<chillywilly> cause there are plenty out there to look at fr inspriation ;)
<chillywilly> mwahaha
<dsmith> They plan to re-write all the auto* tools in Guile Scheme.  Then life will be happy.
Action: dsmith ducks
<chillywilly> that would be col
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> they should write it all in elisp and require emacs to be installed ;)
<dsmith> chillywilly: Actually, I agree with you.  Copyying and tweaking isn;t so bad, but starting from scratch is nasty.
<chillywilly> muuuuwaahahahahaa
<chillywilly> dsmith: it's just shell scripting for the most part
<chillywilly> if you can't shell script you should shoot yourself ;)
<dsmith> What's whacky, is you use configure to generate the Makefile from Makefile.in, but it's too diffucult to write that, so you write Makefile.am and use automake to make Makefile.in.
<chillywilly> no, it's that Makefiles all are pretty generic
<jamest> then you put on the goat head, sacrafice a squirel to the build tool gods, run the autotools and prey the moons are in proper alignment
<dsmith> chillywilly: Yes, shell is pretty easy, and m4 is too once you understand it.
<chillywilly> with similar targets that you don't feel like rewriting every time
<jamest> distutils required you use the head of a yak
<chillywilly> eeek
<chillywilly> no goat?
<chillywilly> real men use goats, imho ;)
<jamest> no, but in NZ i think you can use a sheep for any or all of the above animals
<chillywilly> like you have a choice?
<jamest> the surplus and all
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: dsmith goes back to reverse engineering TimeReporter .pdb files.
<chillywilly> k...
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<dneighbo> hey in xvncviewer is there a way to send 'shift' clicks across the net?
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<dneighbo> hey in xvncviewer is there a way to send 'shift' clicks across the net?
<dneighbo> no xvncviewer users?
<jcater> ya
Action: dneighbo is thinking this is a MAJOR bug if you cant do this
<jcater> but I didn;t know it didn't send shift+clicks
<dneighbo> as it screws everything i do at work :(
<jcater> ah
<dneighbo> well how would you say send ctrl-alt-del
<jcater> the pr0n viewer maps shift+rclick?
<jcater> that I don't know
<jamest> the break tracker too?
Action: dneighbo unfortunately moves alot of objects via highlight object
<dneighbo> then select libraries to copy it to (shift-click/ctrl-click) press button (as there is no Keyboard way to do this
<dneighbo> smokey no way
<dneighbo> you cna run vnc on an ipaq
<dneighbo> how sweet
<chillywilly> way
<dneighbo> anyone have vnc tips on this?
<dneighbo> i found something on keymaps
<dneighbo> but it left me more confused than anything
<dneighbo> this sucks
<jcater> dneighbo: what window manager are you using
Action: jcater guesses it's the window manager capturing that, not vnc
<jcater> as vnc will pass anything it actually receives
<jcater> e.g., I can't use Alt-Tab or Alt-F4 in KDE
<dneighbo> fluxbox
<jcater> because KDE interprets those
<dneighbo> but wont about any window manager grab a ctrl
<dneighbo> there must be some way to force it to client
<jcater> for the purpose of testing, why don't you start up a raw X session on another terminal with only an xterm
<dneighbo> i can hit F8 and get a popupp to send ctrl-alt-del
<jcater> thus no window manager
<jcater> and see if it works
<dneighbo> jcater: if i knew how to do that i would be glad :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> kdm gives that as an option :)
<dneighbo> gdm might too
<dneighbo> but im a bit afraid to drpo my connection
Action: jcater is thinking
<dneighbo> as getting back on can be a bitch
<dneighbo> i have found way to do keymaps and such but its horridly ugly
<dneighbo> http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/xvncviewer.html
<dneighbo> i guess at this point i dont have much choice as to do work i have to have this
<jcater> dneighbo: 
<jcater> Ctrl+alt+F1 to a console login
<jcater> then login
<jcater> then
<jcater> xinit -- :1
<jcater> should bring up a window-managerless session
<jcater> then try xvncviewer
<jcater> btw, if this works, then this tells us the problem
<jbailey> That's a frightening amount of work. =)
<jcater> and we can find a cleaner solution :)
<jcater> jbailey: I'm just trying to verify the problem
<jcater> feel free to correct me if you already know the answer :)
<jbailey> At no time did I suggest it was the wrong way to troubleshoot it.
<jbailey> It's just frightening. =)
<jcater> lol
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<jbailey> that's like me trying to show someone today how to add a scsi driver to an initrd when you're installing a system.
<jcater> ouch
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> I wonder if I should've told him how to close this window-managerless session?
<dneighbo> no xterem in PATH
<jcater> bah
<dneighbo> speicfy a program on the command line or make sure that /usr/X11R6/bin is in your path
<jcater> try xinit gterm -- :1
<jcater> is that right?
<chillywilly> gnome-terminal
<jcater> everyone should have xterm installed :)
<jcater> dneighbo: you catch that
<jcater> not gterm
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<jcater> but gnome-terminal
<jcater> dude'
<dneighbo> apt-get install xterm
<jcater> you are a very high maintenance friend
Action: dneighbo wishes to please jcater ;)
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> fsck
<dneighbo> sorry cant do that
<jcater> ah, I thought this machine wasn't connected to net
<dneighbo> no net when dialed up
<dneighbo> and passing gnome-terminal yells at me still no xterm installed :)
<jcater> bugger
<jcater> not net at all
<dneighbo> im going to disconnect and install xterm i guess
<jcater> or just no internet?
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> if you tell me how to 'route' i can get net
<dneighbo> as it looks as though i have internal network
Action: dneighbo gets deb and scps
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> maybe the .deb will fit on a floppy
<dneighbo> figures this box has xterm already :)
<jcater> I don't have the energy to route for you
<dneighbo> crap cleaned cache here
<jcater> of course, real men use konsole
<dneighbo> wil have to remove and reinstall 
<jcater> can't you do a -d
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<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> maybe i dont know what a -d does :)
<jcater> -d == --download-only
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> you know more about apt than I 
<jcater> if this doesn't work, you might wanna try svncviewer instead of xvncviewer
<jcater> I've personally never used it
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I'd rather be GNUe'n
<jcater> oooo
<jcater> that
<jcater> that'd be a good bumper sticker
Action: drochaid is away: mar sin leibh an drasda
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> how about
<jcater> "My PC is a piece of junk too"
<dneighbo> works fine in xinit
<jcater> that would be an excellect bumpersticker
<dneighbo> jcater this may sound demented but that might work for me
<drochaid> oidche mhath doods
<dneighbo> i.e. generally the computer is about useless w/o net :)
<jcater> drochaid: um, ok
<dneighbo> so when connected to work not having a windows manager doesnt kill me
Action: dneighbo would love a real solution, but for tongiht this might fly
<jcater> ok
<drochaid> dneighbo: vnc on an ipaq? oh .. that's fun
<jcater> dneighbo: good, because I don't yet have a real solution
<dneighbo> jcater: i want to be gnue'ing so bad it hurts
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<dneighbo> but i have to get this done first, so you saved my butt :)
<mdean> dneighbo: d00d!  you get my email aboot 0.9?
<dneighbo> um havent gotten email today
<mdean> oh - oops
<dneighbo> im afraid to use this machine for email as its sylpheed which stunk for imap
<dneighbo> until i get all my goodies moved over
<jcater> really?
<dneighbo> i will go check squirrel mail
<jcater> that's all I use with sylpheed
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<dneighbo> jcater: it was horrid for moving mail
<dneighbo> very slow and buggy
<dneighbo> :(
<dneighbo> i LOVED it for popmail
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<dneighbo> knock on wood, evolution has been amazingly solid
<jcater> I guess I've just gotten used to the slowness
<jcater> what do you use?
<dneighbo> 6 months ago i would have kicked someone that suggested using evolution
<dneighbo> but it actually is pretty responsive
<dneighbo> and solid
Action: jcater may try it
<dneighbo> noting liek the pre 1.0 stuff
<jcater> as my users are bitching about "generic" software now
<jcater> s/now/again
<jcater> with the next release of OpenOffice
<dneighbo> jcater: definitely try it
<dneighbo> my wife hated everything
<jcater> prior to installing
<dneighbo> email wise
<dneighbo> and wanted outlook
<jcater> I'm going to grab sources for openoffice
<dneighbo> thats what made me install evolution
<jcater> and change the window title and the splash
<dneighbo> and she never called for support
<jcater> to read :OpenOffice Professional/Corporate Edition"
<dneighbo> so i figured it was worth me trying again :)
<dneighbo> jcater: silly rabbit
<jcater> I'm dead serious
<jcater> I couldn't get them to use OpenOffice
<jcater> until I changed the icon names
<dneighbo> :Microsoft Windows Longlorn/Special Corporate Beta 4
<jcater> to "Word" and "Excel"
<jcater> then they started using it
<jcater> but complained that it was the generic version
<jcater> and "kmail" is the generic version of outlook express
Action: jcater has never before heard software described as "generic"
<jcater> what kind of resources does evolution pull?
<jcater> as we're talking more than one user :)
Action: jcater wishes the kompany was still working on aethera
<chillywilly> evolution is a fat pig
<jcater> as it has the same interface as evolution
<jcater> but with the KDE widget set
<chillywilly> jcater: the kompany is evil
<jcater> maybe
<jcater> I suppose they are KDE's version of Ximian
<chillywilly> hmm, wrose I would say
<jcater> although I like the kompany better than ximian
<jcater> I don't think so
<chillywilly> cause they develop a LOT of prop. stuff
<jcater> at least they are always honest about what they're doing
<chillywilly> I dunno evil is evil ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, even the KDE developers can't stand the kompanyt
<dneighbo> jcater: im with chilly on this onnly because to me KDE is like Caldera
<dneighbo> its not that they are doing prop development its the attitude
Action: dneighbo speaks only CEO to CEO
<dneighbo> not the developers working for Kompany
<chillywilly> you mean the Kompany is like Caldera ;)
Action: dneighbo isnt thrilled always with Ximian and what it does, but the leaders there arent quiet as nose up turned to the community
<dneighbo> it sucks as they actually do some cool stuff
<chillywilly> agreed
<dneighbo> if the attitude were better they would likely do better (even with prop stuff)
<chillywilly> Ransom Love and Shawn Gordon could be best buddies ;)
<dneighbo> maybe they are same person?
Action: chillywilly hears the x-files theme
<chillywilly> a conspiracy?!?
<dneighbo> fsck csi miami
<dneighbo> thanks chilly
<chillywilly> for what?
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> I may put my users on evolution
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> ugh
<jcater> but I've gotten so used to the slimmed down sylpheed
<jcater> I don't know if I can deal with evolution myself
<chillywilly> you can't
<chillywilly> it SUCKS
<chillywilly> it is almost as bad as outlook
<jcater> that's a good reason to put my users on it
<chillywilly> in fact i think they were trying to emulate outlook's bloatedness
<jcater> as I've had them cry over losing outlook
<jcater> and that's not an exageration
<chillywilly> how does anyone tolerate it?
<chillywilly> hell I've seen my buddy have it lock up a thousand times ona  1GHz laptop
<dneighbo> i kind of like it
<jcater> I had withdrawal when dropping Outlook
<jcater> but I've grown to like slimmed down email
<jcater> (btw, this is Outlook, not Express)
Action: chillywilly uses mutt
<jcater> does evolution support LDAP?
<jcater> if so, that's probably the selling point
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> I tried using evolution for a while about a few weeks ago
<chillywilly> I hate it
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> dneighbo: you use the calendar stuff?
<dneighbo> i looked into it
<dneighbo> im about to try at home i think
<dneighbo> though i need something i can use when im at work too
Action: dneighbo might have to use phpgw
<dneighbo> wife and i need way to be in sync
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> if you slow down, it might help
<jcater> or try other positions
<chillywilly> rofl
<jcater> oh, with calendars
<jcater> doh!
<chillywilly> what about GNUe Groupware eh? ;)
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<jcater> woohoo!
<jcater> KDE 3.1 RC3 out today
<jcater> Yurik[birthday]: happy birthday
<Yurik[birthday]> jcater: thanks!
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<chillywilly> you guys missed it
<chillywilly> I send in my moo and they played it on WOPN
<dneighbo> moo
<chillywilly> http://www.libertyetech.com/moo.ogg
<jcater> moo
<chillywilly> and for next week
<chillywilly> http://www.libertyetech.com/chicken.ogg ;P
<dneighbo> webmail is painful
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you listen to my moo?
Action: dneighbo still is amazed that web applications are so in demand
<chillywilly> freak
<dneighbo> chillywilly: no moo yet
<dneighbo> busy fighting other issues
<chillywilly> eh, whatever
<dneighbo> mainly weeding through mail mountain to respond to mdean :)
<ra3vat> hello all
<ra3vat> how to add % to all my search input?
--- Tue Nov 12 2002