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<ajmitch> evning derek
<derek> gack this channel seems so empty
Action: derek rubs eyes REALLY hard
<derek> does that say cw|code?
<jcater> yeah
<derek> like as in doing something productive ;)
Action: jcater thinks that's an oxymoron
<jcater> like, um, military intelligence
<jcater> or stable lattitude laptop
Action: derek slaps jcater with a trout
<ajmitch> the end is nigh!!
<derek> you made me choke on a goldfish
Action: jcater wonders why derek had his goldfish in his mouth
<jcater> was this some magic trick for the kids?
<derek> goldfish crackers
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> more like goldfish donuts :)
<derek> mmm that sounds good
Action: derek was going to do a donut icebreaker for the youth but i couldnt get the image out of my mind to tolerate it :)
<derek> basically you get in teams of two
<derek> you tie a donut to a string
<derek> one team member lays flat on back
<derek> other one dips donut dangling from string in chocolate then holds over the person laying down
<derek> and they have to eat it off the string
<derek> first one to eat whole donut wins
<ajmitch> lol
Action: derek couldnt get the image of jcater laying there screaming for 'another donut' out of his head long enough to actually buy the donuts ;)
<ajmitch> you'd get them to only eat one?
<derek> no
<derek> its single elimination head to head
<derek> we did something similar with bananas before
<derek> all i can say is i was blown away how quick some kids can eat a banana
<jcater> dude
<jcater> does it matter if you eat the string too?
Action: jcater would whoop up on all their arses
<jcater> "Hey, kid... just drop it... trust me... it'll all go in"
<derek> jcater: if you played i would modify slightly
<jcater> "I have experience...."
<derek> it would be  string with 12in pvc pipe on end
<derek> and it would be 'a dozen donuts'
<derek> vs them only eating one
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<jcater> nite all
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<ajmitch> hi
<psu> hi
<psu> derek: still awake?
<derek> yeah
<derek> et tu brutus?
<psu> only just ;-)
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<psu> hi samuel
<samuel> hi psu
<ajmitch> hello samuel
<samuel> how r u. i'm a new comer.how about you?
<samuel> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> psu: oh you did fix up the .exe permissions, right? ;)
<psu> jamest beat me to it
<psu> my bad
<ajmitch> great
<psu> samuel - i just dropped in here one day 
<ajmitch> so long as someone could fix it, i'm happy :)
<psu> within 6 months, I was webmaster/webslave ;-)
<samuel> do you always stay in here?
<samuel> oh.psu.me too. where do u come from?
<samuel> hi ajmitch,u r a guru in here?
<psu> I'm from England
<ajmitch> certainly not
<psu> we have all sorts here
<ajmitch> i'm a mere fringe developer
<psu> ajmitch and I just do the morning shift together ;-)
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<ajmitch> i just always hang out & annoy the people here :)
<ajmitch> hey reinhard
<psu> me before I go to work, him before he goes for tea...
<reinhard> good morning/evening ajmitch and all
<ajmitch> tea is just about ready
<ajmitch> (it's a little late tonight)
<samuel> how many developers in GNUE? 10 or 20?
<ajmitch> hmm, could be somewhere around that
<ajmitch> probably closer to 20 that do stuff
<ajmitch> but like all projects, some do lots, some (like me) very little :)
<samuel> i wish i can become a developer.Can I? 
<ajmitch> certainly!
<psu> well, one of the good things about this project is that there's plenty for non-coders to do as well
<samuel> oh.Great!
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<samuel> i do some works in C,C++ and delphi. but in here which language is preferred?
<ajmitch> python
<samuel> psu, why non-coders?
<psu> samuel : we are now all python 
<psu> but 
<reinhard> samuel: we prefer python coders with delphi experience ;-)
<psu> if you know all of those, python is like falling off a log
<samuel> oh.python, i'm not familiar.
<psu> even I can understand it, and my last serious programming was ZX Basic
<psu> Think of it as a sort of object-orientated C, but with indentation instead of braces ;-)
<psu> several core developers started as C-fans but now love the way of the snake and won;t go back
<samuel> oh. so i need a python dev env?
<samuel> GNUE wanna do similar things with Delphi or other?
<psu> well, the tools are fairly delphi-like
<psu> the packages (which will use the tools) should be classic ERP 
<psu> J-BOPS (JDE, Baan, Oracle, Peoplesoft, SAP)
<psu> but all free (as in freedom)
<samuel> how about your work in here.psu?
<psu> I just do a little on the website
<ajmitch> psu has the extremely valuable contributions of the website & the kernel cousins
<ajmitch> he's just modest
<psu> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/
Action: ajmitch was just typing that :)
<samuel> I did 2 erp projects in the last three years.one is vb+mssqlserver, the second is delphi+com+oracle.
<psu> http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/archives.html actually is a better entry point
<samuel> so there are many gurus hiden in here.
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<btami> good morning
<samuel> oh.thx.i was entering that site.
<psu> well, time for work for me
<ajmitch> hi btami
<ajmitch> bye psu :)
Nick change: cw|code -> chillywilly
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<reinhard> samuel: if one needs to own 365 mercedes to be a guru, then: no ;-)
<ra3vat_> hidden mercedes?
<reinhard> i don't remember his name, but there was an indian (?) guru that had fellowers all around the world
<reinhard> and from the money they gave him he bought a mercedes for each day of the year
<chillywilly> sheesh
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<chillywilly> night
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<ajmitch> and now we get to enjoy the quiet evening...
<ajmitch> ;)
<samuel> ajmitch, the new version installer is ok now?
<ajmitch> yep, afaik it should be
<samuel> ok.i down a new one.this version's dev ref is not full.
<ajmitch> the developer's guide is a work in progress
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<samuel_xuxu>  i open zipcode.gfd. and click debug-run. then open a console window.and nothing happens?
<ajmitch> this is from designer?
Action: ajmitch has not tried running forms from designer much
<ajmitch> usually i'd run a form with gnue-forms
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<samuel_xuxu> but debug what?
<ajmitch> ?
<samuel_xuxu> after my install, there are 3 exe. connection, designer, form client
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> designer is for creating forms
<samuel_xuxu> form client is a example?
<ajmitch> the debug-run would be for testing forms
<ajmitch> no, forms-client is the main program for running forms
<samuel_xuxu> en? but i can't find "open file" menu
<ajmitch> you generally pass the form filename as an argument
<ajmitch> like 'gnue-forms zipcode.gfd'
<samuel_xuxu> oh.i got it.i should start it from command line.not the ms shortcut.hehe.thx
<ajmitch> :)
<ra3vat_> samuel_xuxu: can you check that double clicking on created form (.gfd file) runs it via forms client?
<samuel_xuxu> u know "hehe"? :)
<samuel_xuxu> ra3, ya, it does work.
<ra3vat_> ok
<btami> gfd's are associated to gnue-forms.exe on win32
<samuel_xuxu> but my first forms quit quickly.maybe i need some code?
<samuel_xuxu> why? I thought there should be a form stay in screen. anthing wrong?
<btami> please try debug-on version, if you want to report bugs :)
<samuel_xuxu> ok. i download debug-on version now.
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<gav> list
[06:39] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<nickr> is there a way to .. graft two lists together end to end?
<nickr> an operation to d osuch
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<revDeke> python lists
<nickr> yea
<revDeke> can you use list.append(otherlist)
<nickr> naw
<nickr> it goes [1,2,3,[1,2,3]]
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<revDeke> hmmm
<nickr> besides', I don't want to modify the list
<nickr> s
<nickr> I just want to iterate through both of them easily :)
<jcater> nickr: [1,2,3] + [4,5,6] == [1,2,3,4,5,6]
<nickr> exucellent
<nickr> thank you
<nickr> hah
<nickr> its quite intuitive
<revDeke> you suck
<revDeke> i was just ready to paste that
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> I guess I should've taken a longer lunch
Action: jcater was back 7 minutes early anyway
<revDeke> :)
Action: revDeke just notes its not often i hvae the answer (or at least the right one)
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<siesel> hi al
<siesel> l
<revDeke> hio
<revDeke> hi
<revDeke> even
<nickr> I love python :)
<revDeke> guido says it loves you too
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> the list+list thing just saved me like 20 lines
<nickr> AndI have a mental disorder which requires me to minimize the total number of lines in all programs.
<jcater> I love you too!
<jcater> >>>
<jcater> err
<jcater> jason@jason:~/cvs/gnue-0.4.2/forms/samples/zipcode$ python
<jcater> Python 2.2.2 (#4, Oct 15 2002, 04:21:28)
<jcater> [GCC 2.95.4 20011002 (Debian prerelease)] on linux2
<jcater> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
<jcater> >>> import sys
<jcater> >>> sys.iLoveYou()
<jcater> I love you too!
<jcater> >>>
<jcater> there ya go
<jcater> proof positive
<nickr> hehe
Action: jcater can feel the lovin in tha room
<revDeke> jcater you might like this
<revDeke> http://civil.sourceforge.net/index.php
<nickr> gar, Ihad pizza yesterday, and my guts are punishing me
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> on the 0.81 changelog of that
<jcater> * Games now end properly
<jcater> as opposed to?
<jcater> the south winning?
<revDeke> roflmao
<nickr> it'd be cool to have a 'Python: Feel the Love' tshirt
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> with a cool snake on it
<jcater> sounds groovy
<nickr> snake in leopard skin and sunglasses
<nickr> ;)
<jcater> of course, the "GNUe: Feel the Love" would picture a crushed armadillo on it
<jcater> roadkil
<jcater> l
<revDeke> http://www.swoogan.com/flatdb.html seems interesting
Action: jcater would rather have a swollendb myself
<jcater> flatdb sounds boring
<jcater> cool
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<jcater> Project Maturity: Stable
<jcater> Development Status: Discontinued (for the moment anyway)
Action: jcater thinks we should adopt :)
<nickr> flaciddb
Action: revDeke isnt sure if jcater is serious ont eh 'we should should adopt'
<revDeke> i did find that it using excel csv to be the most interesting part
<jcater> it would need some work
<jcater> as the description mentions it assumes first field is pk
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<nickr> 'excel csv' ?
<jcater> comma separated
<nickr> yes, but, excel?
<jcater> the excel variety has kind of become the de facto standard
<nickr> what is special?
<jcater> handling of quotes
<revDeke> http://gnumed.net/gnotary/ is interesting as well
<nickr> ah
<nickr> gnortary is a good idea
<nickr> in fact, sounds like ideas that I was knocking around years ago
<nickr> altohugh the wohle concept seems like it'd be subject to several kinds of attacks.
<revDeke> why do people not write stuff in python again?
<revDeke> i.e. what drives people to use somethign other than python
<nickr> I still write stuff in C
<nickr> mostly for the fun of it
<nickr> C is like a puzzle
<nickr> and I find it intellectually stimulating to solve it
<nickr> perl is excellent for one off filters and quick text processing
<nickr> php is already there for doing simple webpage dynamism
<nickr> python or objective C are the only languages that I'd write apps in though.
<nickr> like, real applications.
<jcater> what?!?
<jcater> no VB?
<nickr> god
<nickr> I might have to do stuff in VB, so .. don't jinx my run of luck. :)
Action: jcater shudders at the thought
Action: revDeke notes (unfortunately from experience) one does not 'write' applications in VB, one 'suffers' through 'fighting' applications 'to work' in VB.
<nickr> well sure
<nickr> at least the guis are easy to layout.
<nickr> (as if that makes up for any of the defficiencies in the language)
<nickr> of which there are uncountable "entertaining" niggles
<revDeke> like ALL mickey soft stuff
<revDeke> it makes teh first 80% so easy to do its sick
<revDeke> i.e. building the screens and prototyping is a wet dream
<nickr> yea
<nickr> it is nice
<nickr> then the pain
<revDeke> but to actually implement the other 20% of the functionality is PURE AND UTTER hell
<nickr> the pain like wallowing in boiling feces
<revDeke> all their tools seem to be like this
<nickr> speaking of boiling feces, does wxPythn work on wince? 
<revDeke> incredibly easy to learn and quick productivity
<revDeke> until you hit that wall
<revDeke> then bam you are screwed :)
<nickr> yep
<jcater> nickr: I think it does
<nickr> excellent.
<jcater> they have a microGUI interface or something
Action: jcater hasn't played w/it
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<nickr> Man, map() and lambda are incredibly useful.
<revDeke> with lambada you can make python a functional programming langugage like lisp
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<Chipaca> hi all
<revDeke> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-prog.html
<nickr> revDeke: Yea, I have a strong functional background
Action: jcater has a strong nonfunctional background
<nickr> revDeke: I do a lot of functional programming type things in my stuff.
Action: jamest has a strong disfunctional background
<nickr> dysfunctional programming!
<jamest> GNUe baby
<jcater> GNUe had a baby?
<jcater> what's its name?
<jcater> gnuE ?
<jamest> It's the posterchild of dysfunctional programming
<Chipaca> is there any trick to using the savannah mailman admin thingie? (yeah, waaay offtopic)
<jcater> Chipaca: pray alot first
<Chipaca> jcater: ... ?
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> I have had bad luck with it
<Chipaca> jcater: as in you couldn't get in?
<jcater> mine don't work yet
<jcater> to say the least
<revDeke> jamest: im not sure but i think they come in 'blue'
<revDeke> http://www.usatoday.com/life/gallery/grammy2001/nominees/blue-man-group-arrival.jpg
<revDeke> GNUe babies that is
<jamest> :)
Action: revDeke knows that is an important feature for jamest :)
<nickr> OMG BmG
<nickr> sheesh, I think I caught a disease from some young IRCers
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<Yurik_> re
<psu> can anyone give me the "elevator pitch" of the diff between savannah and subversions?
<psu> I know gnue's CVS used to be on subversions and moved to savannah
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<psu> Is subversions now effectively defunct?
<psu> Or is subversions now in effect the CVS server part of the overall savannah project
<psu> Or am I just talking the usual level of spherical round objects?
<psu> Or all of the above?
<jamest> i think they are the same machine
<jamest> now
<jamest> savannah made it easier for proj managers to maintain cvs access
<psu> yeah
<revDeke> rofl
<psu> my perception was savannah == subversions CVS + access control/accounts + mail lists + news pages + web site + other useful sourceforge-like stuff
Action: revDeke isnt sure about that last statement ;)
<revDeke> the 
<revDeke> savannah made it easier one :)
<revDeke> though i have made my peace with it
<psu> revDeke: as in, you told them to peace off?
<psu> or vice versa?
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<StyXman> hi all
<siesel> hi StyXman
<Chipaca> StyXman: wake up!
<nickr> I didn't think that subversion was cvs compatible
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<StyXman> hi siesel 
<StyXman> hey, 6 minutres is a good response time.
<StyXman> like, glimmer over net
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<StyXman> nickr: and is it? I heard on kde-devel that they were conceptually too different 
<StyXman> is there any plans of listboxes?
<StyXman> w/ multiple selection?
<StyXman> :)))
<StyXman> (no kidding, just especting a 'yes' smiling)
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<revDeke> yummy the new dish i have offers a PVR upgrade for $50 w/ no monthly fee
<revDeke> their newest pvr runs linux and is GPL'ed :)
<revDeke> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/technology/receivers/index.shtml
<nickr> PVR eh
<nickr> urge to build Freevio
<nickr> http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
<nickr> written in python, of course ;)
<revDeke> yeah i saw that
<revDeke> i dont have a tuner card
<revDeke> and at 50 bucks i cant get a card or a drive that cheap :)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> true
Action: psu is back (gone 01:18:24)
<psu> those wacky Win32 printer drivers, heh
<psu> I mean, I wouldnt expect an error message as helpful as 
<psu> "Look, I know you *think* the printer cable is plugged in, but it's a bit loose - please reinsert"
<psu> but I would have liked something less blatently misleading than 
<psu> "Out of Paper"
<revDeke> at least you get messages
<revDeke> windows used to just lock up or not print
<revDeke> and not bother to give me messages of any kind
<revDeke> cept the blue kind
<nickr> yea
<nickr> sheesh
<nickr> kids today
<nickr> with their 'windows NT'
<nickr> New Technology my left nut!
<psu> Well, this was actually Win 95 
<psu> which I tend to find the most reliable of the Win32s
<psu> or at least the one I can coax the most out of
Action: psu loves it when people moan about "no such thing as a standard Linux"
<nickr> I've always had the best luck with 98
<nickr> 95 was crustadelic
Action: psu has to use Win 95, 98, NT 4 and 2000 at different times
<psu> at work, and they're all slightly diff
<psu> except for XP which is radically diff
<psu> "Standard desktop" yeah, right
<nickr> hehe
<psu> 95 is fine as long as all your peripherals are as old as the 'puter
<psu> none of this new-fangled USB stuff
<nickr> yea
<yogurt2unge> \q
<siesel> anyone get a connection to Linux Weekly News, lwn.net?
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<nickr> I completely forgot Ihad a subscription to LWN
<revDeke> siesel: i think they went out of business
<revDeke> and cease to exist
<nickr> no
<revDeke> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-946289.html?tag=fd_top
<revDeke> LWN.net, a Web site that has chronicled the roller-coaster fortunes of the Linux operating system, will shut down Aug. 1 after failing to find a way to finance the operation. 
<nickr> revDeke: thats old news
<nickr> they were up last week
<nickr> they have a pay service
<revDeke> or even day to day
<revDeke> but siesel back to your question, no i cant reach them
<nickr> I can't either.
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<psu> www.linuxtoday.com is a cool site
<psu> syndicates KC GNUe for a start ;-)
<nickr> kay see
<nickr> they syndicate everything
<psu> so?
<nickr> so you ain't special
<psu> I.m not proud ;-)
<jcater> wow!
<jcater> we're syndicated?
Action: jcater can't wait to see the reruns
<jcater> do they air late at night?
<nickr> the newest show on UPN
<nickr> 'Fun Time With Derek and Jay'
Action: psu has it on to do list (but near bottom) to do RSS feed for www.gnuenterprise.org
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<Chipaca> hi all
<Chipaca> is there any way to do a limited select?
<Chipaca> i.e. select foo from bar where baz limit 5
<Chipaca> ?
<jcater> no
<Chipaca> rats
<jamest> why?
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<Chipaca> I was wanting to do a lazy load of some stuff, but to bring _something_ on startup
<Chipaca> bah, it's a dumb idea
<Chipaca> forgetit
<Chipaca> :)
<jcater> lazy loat?
<jcater> err load?
<jamest> Chipaca: you do that anyway in our system
<jamest> the default is 10 records
<jamest> set the datasource to prequery
<Chipaca> yes?
<jcater> Chipaca: our system only loads records as it needs them
<jamest> it'll only pull 10 unless you set the cache value to something else
<Chipaca> ah, ok
<jcater> (well, 10 at a time -- with 10 being a settable attribute)
<jamest> unless the underlying driver has issues with fetching them in small batches
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> lovely
<jamest> datasource has a cache attribute that adjusts that
<Chipaca> e.g. cache=13 sets it to a block size of 13?
<jamest> no
<jamest> wait
<jamest> you're not talking forms <block> are you
<Chipaca> no, <datasource>
<jamest> if you set cache to 13 then it'll load 13 records at a time
<Chipaca> great
<jamest> if you have a entry on screen that has rows set to 15 
<Chipaca> what was the attr for having it pre-fetch stuff?
<jamest> it's automatic
<Chipaca> it'll bring two chunks of 13 to fill it in, or is it magic in that way?
<jamest> it'll load 26
<jcater> Chipaca: prequery="Y"
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> jcater: tks
<Chipaca> of course it being empty right now doesn't exactly help me realize it's working :)
Action: Chipaca goes stuff the db
<chillywilly> psu didn't know that they mention the GNUe KCs on LT?
<chillywilly> whats a matta wit him?
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-11-21-016-26-NW-DT-DV
<chillywilly> that looks interesting
<jcater> bah
<jcater> not to defend MS
<jcater> but a committee-designed XML standard
<jcater> for doing documents
<jcater> sounds down-right scary
<jamest> you know 
<jamest> i wish openoffice would do something like this
<reinhard> huh
<reinhard> a committee-designed XML standard for doing documents?
<reinhard> something like docbook?
Action: jamest is being a smartass
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> Microsoft already supports an XML-based technology being developed by the World Wide Web Consortium, called XSD, the spokesman wrote. "What this means is that anything the OASIS group comes up with that's based on XSD 1.0 will already work with Office 11," he wrote in the e-mail message.
<chillywilly> XSD is not an office format
<chillywilly> wtf
<chillywilly> it's xml schema definition
<Chipaca> how can I call a named trigger from a non-named (e.g. post-focusin) trigger
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<Chipaca> can I?
<Chipaca> i.e. <trigger type="post-focusin" name="fooTrigger"/> ?
<jamest>  <trigger type="post-focusin" name="foo" src="nameofNamedTrigger"/>
<Chipaca> ah, src
<Chipaca> great
<Chipaca> is name mandatory?
<Chipaca> whee, works!
<jamest> everything should have a name
<jamest> in fact at one time designer puked if two things had same name
<jamest> but I think that's fixed now
<jamest> fixed = deals with broken gfd file
<Chipaca> forms still puke if two things that go in self have the same name
<Chipaca> e.g. a trigger and a page, IIRC
<Chipaca> or something like that
<Chipaca> still, should even things that don't need a name have a name, like labels?
<jcater> you don't have to give them one
<jcater> they are optional for things like that
<jcater> but when you want to hide a label or such in the future
<jcater> (we can't do that now)
<Chipaca> yes, or change a colour
<jcater> you'll need some way to identify it
<jcater> gack!
<Chipaca> correct
<Chipaca> ]:)
<Chipaca> or do some onMouseOver stuff
Action: Chipaca waits for jcater to freak out
<revDeke> everything SHOULD have a name
Action: jcater searches for a trout
Action: jcater searches for a second trout
<revDeke> really its probably bad for us to let that be optional on any item
Action: Chipaca lights the fire
Action: jamest hands jcater third trout
<jcater> revDeke: I don't really agree with that
Action: Chipaca puts spices in it
Action: Chipaca gets the gutting knife
<jcater> of course, all designer generated files give names to everything
<revDeke> jcater: i didnt ask you to :)
<revDeke> agree that is
Action: Chipaca goes back to his gfd and randomly deletes names
<revDeke> i can see why someone might feel lazy and not want to give something a name
<revDeke> but i think its poor form 
Action: revDeke is cool as long as all objects have a name
<jcater> revDeke: but, at the same time
<jcater> I don't recall asking for your opinion on the matter
<jcater> :)=
<Chipaca> umm.. I might have missed this, but if I have an entry that is 12 rows high, does the cache get set to 12 automagically or not?
<jcater> I don't think so, but don't recall exactly
<Chipaca> ok, I'll just put it in there by hand
<Chipaca> anything wrong with saying `prequery="yes"'?
<jcater> it's non-standard, but will parse
<jcater> as derek would say, it's poor form
<Chipaca> in what sense is it not standard?
<jcater> as in it's keyed for Y or N, but it will parse that correctly
<jcater> because I said so
<jamest> the datasource knows nothging about rows
<jcater> isn't that enough of a reason
<jcater> that's what I tell my kid
<jamest> the UI tries to fill the number of rows visible
<jcater> (but then again, it's not enough for him either)
<Chipaca> prequery="Y" is cool with me, it's the prequery="" that I don't like
<jamest> it does not manipulate the cache value at al
<jamest> all
<jcater> Chipaca: prequery="" is bad form too :)
<Chipaca> jamest: tks
<jamest> sure
<jcater> but that works as well
Action: Chipaca uses `hidden="under the carpet"' a lot
<jcater> well
<jcater> just don't do
<jcater> hidden="next to the door"
<jcater> as that is false
<Chipaca> LOL
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> q, is it really Y or N, or is it what one chooses as booleans in config?
<Chipaca> methinks the latter would be cooler, but not necessary
<jcater> um
<jcater> booleans in config has to do with checkboxes iirc
<jcater> btw
<Chipaca> true
<jamest> you can set them IIRC in the gnue.conf but each driver contains what's passed to driver
<jcater> Y,y,T,t,1 
<Chipaca> question, why does hidden="NO!" hide the thing?
<jcater> or any string starting with such
<jcater> is true
<jamest> do a gfcvs --configuration-options
<jamest> if the hidden attribute has any value then it's active
Action: Chipaca starts to see a pattern
<Chipaca> can one change config from a trigger? i.e. is it 'good form' (or good report, for that matter :)? (some forms would benefit from turning off CacheDetailRecords)
<jamest> depends on the attribute
<jamest> you'd have to look in the manual that doesn't exist
<jamest> or in the source code
<jamest> each object can provide list of attributes that can be set from trigger
<Chipaca> ok
<jcater> shit
<jcater> sorry
<Chipaca> jcater: ?
<jcater> Chipaca: frustrations with a user here at work
<jcater> not related to this
<Chipaca> jcater: people who have to deal with users usually need a rba list
<revDeke> rba = roller ball attitude?
<nickr> ROLLERBALL
<Chipaca> really bad attitude
<Chipaca> jwz talks about it
<nickr> jwz.
<nickr> bah!
<Chipaca> it was this list you couldn't subscribe to, you entered the list by saying something outside of the list that you should've said in it
<revDeke> jcater: here is my new french phrase "Si vous voyez les chèvres folles. Vous devriez courir. "
<revDeke> If you see the insane goats.  You should run. ;)
<nickr> the goats, she walk!
<Chipaca> revDeke: s/folles. V/folles, v/
<revDeke> huh?
<nickr> chevres
<nickr> eek
<siesel> chinese version: "Ruguo ni kandao senjingbing de shanyang, gankuai pao!"
<revDeke> or in spanish something like
<revDeke> Si usted ve cabras enojadas. Usted debe irse. 
<nickr> gnue needs a 'chupicabra' release ;)
Action: revDeke isnt sure how to say 'run' in spanish.  Like i have to 'run to the store'.  Which would explain why papo guys didnt get when jcater said 'i gotta run to the eye doctor' i suppose :)
<revDeke> s/jcater/jamest
<nickr> man, being able to add lists together opens up like
<nickr> a whole new stylistic radius
<revDeke> also maybe s/enojadas/locas
<Chipaca> run is correr, and it's used in the same senses as in english, mostly, even down to run()
<Chipaca> and folles would be locas, yes
<nickr> flee
<Chipaca> fly floe
<Chipaca> i smell the .. no.
<revDeke> Chipaca: the cleaning lady here throws away my dishes
<revDeke> in spanish how can i say
<revDeke> Please do not throw away the dishes.
<revDeke> er
<revDeke> Cleaning Staff,
<revDeke> Please do not throw away the dishes.
<revDeke> Thank You.
<Chipaca> err
<jcater> revDeke: "Iffa dishesay in da trrrrashcan, me kicketh your buttaway. "
<Chipaca> would she be centre- or south-american?
<revDeke> rev: roflmao
<revDeke> er jcater
<revDeke> chillywilly: mexico
<revDeke> er Chipaca : mexico
<jcater> revDeke: having tab-completion issues?
<revDeke> no broken interface between chair and keyboard....
Action: Chipaca goes to rae.es for some of the variations
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<jcater> revDeke: do a pictoral
<jcater> 4 quadrants
<jcater> in top left, have circle with slash showing dishes being put in the trash
<jcater> with an arrow pointing to top right
<jcater> which has a smiley face
<jcater> lower left, same as upper left without slash
<jcater> lower right, a big boot
<jcater> and a butt
<revDeke> hmm that could be effective
<revDeke> work doesnt ahve 'utensils' so i bring my own plastic ware
<revDeke> i didnt clean my microtray and fork like i normally do as was in a rush
<revDeke> came in this morning and they were gone
<revDeke> so had no fork to eat lunch
<Chipaca> revDeke: María, por favor no me bote los trastos
Action: Chipaca notes you wouldn't get far in Argentina with that one
<jcater> Chipaca: do argentinans like butts and boot combinations?
Action: jcater shudders
<Chipaca> jcater: no, I mean most people wouldn't know what to botar is, nor what trastos are
<Chipaca> botar es from german bötan, trasto is from latin transtrum, but we use neither in argentina, preferring 'tirar' and 'vajilla'
<Chipaca> at least that's what rae.es says :)
<revDeke> is maria == cleaning lading?
<revDeke> er lady
<revDeke> and how do you say thank you
<Chipaca> gracias
<Chipaca> maría is mary :)
<Chipaca> no, it's not "cleaning lady"
<Chipaca> are you certain it's a lady?
<chillywilly> anyone ever read that Peruvian Congressman's letter to M$ Peru from a while back...like take the time to read the whole thing?
<chillywilly> it is frelling AWESOME
<Chipaca> chillywilly: perlhead helped write it, is that the same?
<revDeke> no
<chillywilly> wow
<revDeke> i need to know how to say cleaning person
<Chipaca> revDeke: try "Estimado personal de limpieza: por favor, les ruego, no me boten los trastos. Gracias"
<Chipaca> revDeke: the "estimado" is a formalism, you can drop it but it's usual
<Chipaca> revDeke: how come you know his/her origin but not her/his sex?
<chillywilly> Chipaca: what is the status on the Bill?
<Chipaca> chillywilly: hmm, dunno. Check http://grulic.org.ar/proposicion
<revDeke> Chipaca: um we live 1 hour from mexican border
<revDeke> about anyone speaking spanish here is from mexico :)
<revDeke> btw: babelfish translates that really odd
<revDeke> you sure it says dont throw my dishes away :)
<jcater> revDeke: "chimichanga"
Action: revDeke drools
<Chipaca> LOL
<revDeke> actually most of the mexicans here are from chihahiua(sp) or sonora
<Chipaca> revDeke: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=trasto
<revDeke> ok :)
<Chipaca> revDeke: you could use 'utensillos' instead
<Chipaca> revDeke: or 'vajilla'
<Chipaca> revDeke: but the first is more like 'tools', and the second is more 'plates n stuff'
<revDeke> trastos works
<Chipaca> ok
<revDeke> plus its already written in 3 inch letters on my whiteboard :)
<Chipaca> :-D
<revDeke> along with jcaters quadrant diagram
<revDeke> just in case they are cuban and not spanish
<Chipaca> cubans' spanish is very close to mexican
<revDeke> we used to have real spanish guys in gnue
<revDeke> they left never to return
<Chipaca> heh
<revDeke> maybe the goats got them
<revDeke> but one time they helped me learn how to say
<revDeke> "you are on the wrong bus.  you want to get on the bus after this."
<Chipaca> revDeke: err... don't want to disapoint you, but that's english
<revDeke> as these poor mexican fellows would get on the bus that goes downtown (25 miles away) thinking they were getting on a bus that went like 4 miles down the road
<revDeke> and they wouldnt be able to tell until we were on teh freeway and it was too late to get off
<revDeke> the bus driver was savvy to this but often times couldnt get them to be convinced
<revDeke> they gave me big long sentence
<revDeke> finally i just started saying
<revDeke> autobus incorrecto
<revDeke> espera uno mas
<revDeke> autobus rojo
<revDeke> no expresso
<revDeke> as they need the red line not the express
<revDeke> of course then they would say something back and i wouldnt have a clue as to what it was
<revDeke> but they didnt get on the bus :)
<Chipaca> I must say, that's darn nice of you
Action: Chipaca wonders if guys who draw fantasy pics have never seen normal women
<ajmitch> hi all
<Chipaca> http://www.aumania.it/fa_index.html
<Chipaca> ajmitch: hi
<revDeke> um if they drew normal women it wouldnt be fantasy now would it
<Chipaca> revDeke: hmm
<Chipaca> revDeke: well, I thought the dragons n such was the fantasy part, not the women
<Chipaca> maybe dragons are put off by women with very little clothing and lots of umm other stuff so they evolved like that
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<KeithJagrs> hello
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: hi
<KeithJagrs> hi. how you doing?
<revDeke> beuno
<revDeke> bueno
<Chipaca> revDeke: bien, you mean
<nickr> #gnuenterprise is like a whacked version of Sesame Street
<KeithJagrs> jeje
<KeithJagrs> Chipaca, are you the one who runs an argentinian site about gnue?
<siesel> Night all
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<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: no, is there such an animal?
<KeithJagrs> heh
<KeithJagrs> I've seen one
<KeithJagrs> not remember the URL, though
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: or is it PAPO you're thinking?
<KeithJagrs> papo
<KeithJagrs> right
<KeithJagrs> is that you
<KeithJagrs> ?
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: PAPO is _not_ GNUe
Action: revDeke wonders why the UK guy is looking for argentina websites :)
<KeithJagrs> heh
<KeithJagrs> Actually Im am not in UK
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: papo.vialibre.org.ar, but it's rather old (my fault)
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: the links are still good, however
<KeithJagrs> I am in south america
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: where?
<KeithJagrs> Colombia
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: ah
<KeithJagrs> the city where Gardel died
Action: Chipaca is spotty on Gardel's history
<KeithJagrs> The homeland of soccer players such as 'chicho' serna, and Ivan cordoba, who have played in anrgentinean fields
<KeithJagrs> heh
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: we should be releasing a usable papo RSN
<KeithJagrs> Not that I am a huge soccer fan
<KeithJagrs> cool
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: as in our timeline is 'November', so we should have the relase out the first days of December :)
<KeithJagrs> how many people are working on the Papo project?
<Chipaca> let me check
<Chipaca> but not many, 5 or 6
<Chipaca> it's very boring stuff :)
<Chipaca> 6
<KeithJagrs> boring?
<KeithJagrs> PAPO seems sort of similar to Small Business
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: yes, there is certain similarity
<KeithJagrs> Wouldn't be good to gather efforts into one of those projects?
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: maybe -- we were discussing this yesterday
<KeithJagrs> and then do i18n, and localization?
<Chipaca> or maybe the day before
<KeithJagrs> greaat
<Chipaca> but the conclusion was 'probably not' :/
<KeithJagrs> hmmm
<KeithJagrs> why?
<Chipaca> let me find the relevant place in the logs
<KeithJagrs> the papo mailing list has been very active this month
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: mostly CVS commits
<Chipaca> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log.19Nov2002, look for 'gnue-sb'
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: basically papo is aiming at what gnue would call a 'package', while gnue-sb is something much smaller, mor hard-wired
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: the functionality we're working on right now probably overlaps, but that is only short term
<KeithJagrs> hmmm
<KeithJagrs> I see
<KeithJagrs> are you the master of the PAPO siet?
<KeithJagrs> site
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: I'm the one who is responsible for it being what it is, but I am in no way its master
<Chipaca> :)
<KeithJagrs> heh
<KeithJagrs> I would be good to ad some documentation and marketing
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: we know ... :(
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: currently we're focused more on it working :)
<Chipaca> KeithJagrs: as the marketing will kind of just happen; we have a waiting list of businesses wanting to try it out
<KeithJagrs> I see
<Chipaca> _that_'s pressure for you
<KeithJagrs> yeah
<KeithJagrs> has been papo used in production enviroments yet?
<Chipaca> no
<Chipaca> GNUe has :)
<KeithJagrs> ;)
Nick change: chillywilly -> cw-code
<Chipaca> ok, I'm off
Action: Chipaca waves
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<Vee2d2> what is PAPO?
<jcater> PAPO is an argentina business/accounting/erp package
<jcater> using the GNUe tools
<jcater> (in a nutshell)
<Vee2d2> ahh
<Vee2d2> are there many similar projects (offshoots?) like that?
<jcater> not that I know of
<jcater> what are you looking for?>
<revDeke> gnue-sb
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<gontran> oy
<gontran> jcater:  that problem from yesterday was just in the gfd i think.
<jcater> ok
<gontran> I ran a succesfull attempt using forms/intro/something or other. :)
<ajmitch> why it's gontran
<gontran> hey there ajmitch 
<gontran> jcater, can I be your whipping boy for the curses project?  You could call me chilly
<jcater> um
<jcater> nevermind :)
<gontran> heh
<gontran> seriously, I'd like to assist
Action: jcater was gonna make a crude comment about you should probably pick a better example :)
<jcater> but I'll spair chilly
<gontran> just trying to fit in quickly. 
<jcater> I got the menubar mostly working today
<gontran> yeah, I saw the commit
<jcater> it's in the forms-0-4-1-branch
<gontran> ooooh
<jcater> btw, press F10 to get the menu
<gontran> oh ok
<jcater> mouse doesn't quite work yet
Action: gontran shrugs mouse...
<gontran> tell me is 0-4-1 head?
<gontran> ==
<jamest> 0.5.0 is head
<jamest> we're doing forms-0-4-1-branch
<gontran> durn cvs branches
<gontran> ok
<jamest> to give 0.5.0 time to settle down
<jcater> gontran: 0.5.0 is in a state of flux
<gontran> heh.  I noticed.
<gontran> I've been following along with the lists.  not so diligently with kc
<ajmitch> so patches should be done against the branch?
<jamest> depends
<jcater> ajmitch: bugfixes against branch
<gontran> so what's the distance between the 4 branch and something useful in production for yourself jcater?
<jcater> new functionality, probably against head
<ajmitch> ok
<jcater> ajmitch: what kind of patch?
<jcater> if you are thinking CSV driver or something similar
<jcater> then stick w/head
<jamest> if you're implementing something not ui releated then I think you'll be ok against 0.4.x
<jamest> but we want to get back to head asap
<ajmitch> ugh
<revDeke> i would say if you commit something to 0.4.x branch you shoudl commit to head as well
<revDeke> so unless you like to commit twice
<jamest> revDeke: read the commit logs
<jamest> everything in 0.4.1 is also in head
<revDeke> or really need it, then i probably woudl use head
<revDeke> jamest: i was talking to ajmitch  :)
<jamest> head doesn't work well enough yet
<revDeke> i know
<jamest> well, at all
<gontran> hmm. new color stuff a little dicy.
<revDeke> thats why i said unless you like to commit twice or REALLY need it
<jamest> so I'm staying clear of head and implementing non ui stuff in 4.x
<ajmitch> revDeke: why talk to me about committing? :)
<ajmitch> you know i don't have (or need) commit access
<gontran> brb
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Action: ajmitch will just have to squeeze a branched copy of gnue onto this tiny hard drive :)
<revDeke> cool
Action: revDeke leaves
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<jamest> ajmitch: only check out forms common designer
<jamest> er
<jamest> ajmitch: only check out forms common 
<jamest> everthing else hasn't changed
<ajmitch> won't make much difference
<jamest> or
<KeithJagrs> gontran, was that the old man from the lord of the rings?
<jamest> just cvs update -r blanchtag
<jamest> then cvsupdate -A when done w/ it
<gontran> KeithJagrs: i don't think so. :)  that was gandalf iirc
<KeithJagrs> yeah
<ajmitch> jamest: but i want to keep 0.4.x & head to play with
<jamest> no need to keep two :)
<KeithJagrs> gandalf
<jamest> head don't work
<gontran> not that i'm looking for the new 4 disk set.
<ajmitch> jamest: but i was told to do new stuff against head :)
<jamest> i just blindly commit crap to it and yell out "let jcater sort it out!"
<gontran> heh
<jcater> jamest: but he's more in common typically
<jamest> ahhhhhhhh
<ajmitch> isn't that what happens most of the time anyway?
<jamest> shhhhhhh
<ajmitch> and jcater yells 'let jamest sort it out!'
<ajmitch> it's called mutual delegation :)
<jamest> then in unison
<jamest> "blame derek"
<jcater> or an infinite loop
<jcater> "blame derek"
<gontran> commit it all, let derek sort it out
<ajmitch> or chillywilly
<KeithJagrs> does the  the goat have a name?
<jcater> KeithJagrs: yeah
<jcater> I call him james
<KeithJagrs> heh
<jamest> what goat
<ajmitch> hey
<jcater> I dunno
<jamest> people speak of a goat
<jamest> in the docs
<jcater> but I call him james I'm sure
<ajmitch> bbl all
Action: gontran investigates 'sio has no C_MENUBAR property...
<jcater> oooooooo
<jcater> what are you running against?
<gontran> umm
<gontran> i _think_
<gontran> that it's 0-4-1, but maybe I'm mistaken
<jcater> I wouldn't run a form with any checkboxes at the moment
<jamest> cd forms
<jcater> in curses
<jamest> cvs -q status -v setup.py
<jcater> I have to run
<jamest> that will tell you what you've got
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<gontran> it's just that line 136 sio.py has the property commented out, also where the defiitions a tthe top
<gontran> darnit
<gontran> guess i'll just see if i can 
<gontran> jamest: ok
<gontran> that'd be forms-0-4-1
<gontran> anyway
<KeithJagrs> later everyone
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<gontran> for jcater when he returns:
<gontran> jcater: brilliant stuff, moving the coloscheme into dynamic dictionary.
<gontran> jcater: still seems like there's some problems with definition of LOLIGHT_COLOR being only in one place
<gontran> jcater: and sio doesn't appear to be getting colors object assigned from ColorScheme.*, though in the code it doesn't read like there's any problem -- specifically in sio.py after 'import ColorScheme'
<gontran> gotta go
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<ajmitch> hi
<jbailey> Heya Andrew.
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<gontran> back like a junkee
<ajmitch> yo
<gontran> yo yo 
<ajmitch> hmm, what to do
<jcater> gnue!
<ajmitch> been asked if i coudl sell my 13GB hard drive
<ajmitch> but i was wanting to put that in an old computer :)
<gontran> jcater tried new commits
<gontran> F10 disabled?
<Mr_You> why wouldn't the buyer buy a new much larger HD?
<ajmitch> Mr_You: big drive not playing nice :)
<Mr_You> ahh
<ajmitch> win98, 80GB hard drive
<Vee2d2> hey jcarter, sorry I didnt answer earlier in regards to my offshoot projects question, was called to daddy duty.. 
<jamest> argh!
<jcater> Vee2d2: no prob
<jamest> quick! remove that vile are 
<jamest> er, are
<jamest> argh!
<jcater> lol
<jcater> 'r'
<jamest> damn you xchat!!!!! damn you to hell!
<jcater> jamest: um, dude
<Vee2d2> I was asking because I'm a nano sized business (heh).. just myself. So I'm always on the lookout for small business type apps/suites.. 
<jcater> you taken that medication yet?
<ajmitch> mmmmm, medication
<jamest> yeah, its one bottle a day right?
<jamest> it's a bitch swallowing 100pills though
<jcater> Vee2d2: we have a GNUe Small Business version under way
<jamest> takes about 2 gallons of tea and 6 trips to the john
<jcater> it'll be fairly US-centric at first though
<ajmitch> i crush them up & mix them in my srinks
<jcater> at least I imagine
<ajmitch> drinks, sorry
<jcater> oh, wait
<jcater> Ft Worth, TX
<gontran> someone say suppository?
<jcater> I guess that's US :)
<Vee2d2> jamest: you can fix that nuisance in the Setting-Replace pop up dialog I think.. 
<Vee2d2> jcarter: =)
<jcater> jcater
<jcater> btw
<jcater> :)
Action: Vee2d2 takes his dosage
Nick change: jcater -> jcarter
Action: jcarter finally gives in
<jamest> Vee2d2: if only are printed r instead of are then I could have warned him in time
Nick change: jcarter -> jcater
<gontran> jcater: cursing is really fun
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<jcater> gontran: yeah :)
<jcater> like the name?
<jcater> :)
<gontran> jcater: really does a lot now
<gontran> yeah
<gontran> is stanley klien in the room?
<gontran> guess not, it's pretty quiet
<gontran> I don't actually mean anything by that.
<gontran> sorry bout all the noise
<gontran> cheers
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Action: derek yells to make the room noisy
Action: ajmitch pokes derek
Action: derek shuts up
<ajmitch> :)
Action: derek is back (gone 12:49:59)
<derek> hi jcarter
<jcater> werd up, dnabors
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<derek> thats pretty funny actually as 9 out of 10 people spell my name nabors and ask 'are you related to jim'
<derek> so now its common if asked my name i say
<derek> neighbors N_E_I_G_H_B_O_R_S like you next door neighbor with an 's'
<ajmitch> why not neighbours?
Action: derek slaps ajmitch
<derek> actually my dad has been doing geneaology stuff
<derek> and some of the censuses pre 1800 have it as neighbours
<derek> but its not consistent
<derek> we arent sure if the people getting the census taken were bad spellers
<derek> or 
<derek> if the census takers jusst asked the name and wrote down best they thought
<derek> as the same family census to census would have it spelled slightly different
<ajmitch> or a combination of the two
<derek> well they were from texas county, MO so certainly spelling was an issue ;)
<jcater> Gives new meaning to, "Well, howdy neighors!"
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--- Fri Nov 22 2002