Action: drochaid is away: mar sin leibh an drasda
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
Ash (~amathews@12-254-182-146.client.attbi.com) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 (RPM) -- Are we there yet?"
rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
johannes__ (~johannes@M693P018.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
johannes_ (~johannes@M693P018.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
lupo (~lupo@B9676.pppool.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<lupo> hi guys
<lupo> just one note regarding database designer
<lupo> http://pydbdesigner.sourceforge.net
<lupo> is a python/wxwin designer
<lupo> for relational database schemata
<lupo> bye
lupo (~lupo@B9676.pppool.de) left irc: Client Quit
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-214.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-214.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client"
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-84.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-214.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-242-214.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: Client Quit
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
heikoV (~heiko@D5762B50.kabel.telenet.be) joined #gnuenterprise.
<heikoV> hello
<heikoV> how can I install gnue-sb ?
jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: drochaid is back (gone 09:01:44)
dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: "later.."
<derek> cvs
<derek> er
<derek> heikoV: cvs
<derek> i think today if i get a chance i will be adding some documentation
<derek> feature maps
<derek> and a nice juicy tarball to gnue-sb
<derek> specifically to install it you need to have gnue 0.4.1 or the 0.4.x cvs branch installed
<derek> and postgres
<derek> within psql do an \i schema.sql from the directory with the schema.sql to load the tables
<derek> and edit your connections.conf to point to that database w/ valid postgres driver
<derek> name the connection gnue_sb
<derek> and the forms should work
<heikoV> ok
<heikoV> does it work on windows?
<heikoV> my linux box is quite old
<derek> um
<derek> i havent 'tried' on windows
rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<heikoV> if I could install gnue, installing gnue-sb shouldn't be too hard I suppose??
<derek> but no reason it shouldnt
<derek> as long as you have a postgres db somewhere
Action: derek notes the windows ui drivers are not very friendly (0.5.0 should fix that), but it should 'work'
<derek> shouldnt
<heikoV> will there be a setup tool as in phpgw?
<drochaid> I'd hope it would be a great deal better than the phpgw one
<heikoV> The setup-tool works fine for me, the only thing I don't like about phpgw is that they never answer my questions
<heikoV> gnue is generally beter
<derek> a few things
<derek> you are looking at something pre 0.0.1
<derek> so dont expect awesome packaging for sometime
<derek> next there shouldnt be a lot to 'setup' 
<derek> short of the database
Action: derek isnt sure how much that needs a setup
<derek> the 'setup' part comes in getting gnue installed
<derek> this is a gross example
<derek> but how much setup do you have in reading a spreadsheet?
<derek> the work is in getting excel, gnumeric, openoffice installed
<derek> the principle behind gnue in many respects is that gnue is a framework
<derek> and thusly applications that use gnue should be pretty straight forward
<derek> we will some day have a complex packaging system
<derek> that will handle dependencies and upgrades and the likes
<derek> for when we have lots of gnue packages
<derek> but for gnue-sb its more 'shrink wrap oriented'
<derek> in that its expected you are going to get everything and not do it 'a la carte' ERP
<derek> so packaging to me isnt a major concern of gnue-sb
<heikoV> you are right derek
<derek> i hope that makes sense, and let it be known we will always try to answer your questions here
Action: derek has to run to church but will be back later today
<derek> if you have any other gnue-sb questions then please send them to gnue-sb list (if no one can answer them here)
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
larsu (~rfox@dhcp024-210-203-244.woh.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<larsu> hey all
<larsu> anyone alive that's working on/familiar with AccLite/NOLA?
<larsu> well, for when those people wake up :)
<larsu> my name is Ryan Fox, i'm the original developer of Nola.
<larsu> i saw some mailing list posts about what you're trying to do with acclite, and wanted to offer my assistance
<larsu> with code, or just giving you insight as to what I was thinking :)
<larsu> if i'm not around here, my personal e-mail is rfox@amerisuk.com , and you can reach me there.
<larsu> cheers
<ra3vat_> larsu: hi
<ra3vat_> i'm not sure about today but tomorrow you find many who will be ready to talk
<ra3vat_> i think derek and jcater (may be psu ?) are those who were dealing with nola code
<larsu> cool.
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise.
<psu> good evening all
<ra3vat_> hi psu
<ra3vat_> can you look into back log?
<psu> seen it ;-)
<psu> I'm not really a nola/acclite expert
<ra3vat_> ;)
<psu> but
<psu> there's lots of good stuff in Kernel Cousins about 
<psu> how our attitude to it has eveolved
<psu> not sure if that's what larsu has seen 
<psu> if not
<psu> go to http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/ & stick Nola and/or acclite into search box
<psu> and stand well back ;-)
<psu> IIRC the process went something like
<psu> a) let's do a few patches to this & send it back to nogasku
<psu> b) hey, this patch is getting v big - do you think they'll take it?
<psu> c) let's make some things work the GNUe way (d/b abstraction, python not php)
<psu> d) I can;t honestly see them taking a patch this big - do you think they'll tell us to fork off?
<psu> e) We need to do some warehouse stuff quickly and need a financials to go with it - let's fork anyway
<psu> However
<psu> I'm probably being unfair, impolitic or downright wrong in that description somewhere
<psu> ;-)
<nickr> impolitic, you!?
<psu> well, I may be the mild-mannered accountant (removes glasses b4 doing laser stare)
<psu> by GNUe standards
<psu> but that doesn't mean much
<nickr> lol
<nickr> I foresee a DC comics 'GNU ENTERPRISE'
<psu> "Man of Steel, Schema of Perspex"
<nickr> able to code small scripts with a single hand
<nickr> err
<nickr> ahem.
<psu> "single handed typing" again, nickr?
<nickr> no! never!!
<nickr> hehe
<psu> When I was doing management accountancy we used to ridicule the financial accountants 
<psu> as "Spurious Accuracy Man"
<psu> 2.00000000567 times more powerful than a locomotive
<psu> 4.500000001 times faster than a speeding bullet, etc.
<nickr> lol
<nickr> haha
<psu> I realise not really that funny, but you havta take laffs when you can get 'em in accountancy
<nickr> its pretty funny.
<nickr> funnier than anything else I've heard today
<larsu> thanks for the synopsis
<larsu> i'm no longer with Noguska, so i can't speak for them.  knowing them as i do, however, i don't think it's in their interest to accept your patches.  they really want to be able to sell nola by offering it under a commercial license, which they couldn't do it they held copyright on all code.  the latest i heard was they were doing a complete rewrite of nola anyhow.  my guess is so they aren't bound by the gpl/other people's copyrights on t
<larsu> he new version
<larsu> but again, i don't work there anymore, and certainly don't speak for them :)
<larsu> first thing should read "if they didn't hold copyright on all code"
<psu> well, that was another issue around patching
<psu> as normal rule is "patches belong to the patchee"
<psu> but IIRC
<psu> FSF are a bit nervous about this legally.
<larsu> yeah
<psu> That's why, for GNUe code, we only accept non-trivial patches 
<psu> with a copyright assignment
Action: psu notes he has an FAQ on this for the website
<larsu> i will look at that
<psu> which I have shamefully failed to send to FSF lawyers for checking yet
<larsu> :)
<larsu> so the FSF holds copyright on all gnue code?
<psu> yes 
<larsu> awesome
<psu> the idea is that
<psu> if you're never going to dual-license
<psu> owning the copyright is, if anything, a burden
<psu> as you end up having to chase violators w/no recompense
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<psu> By having a single corporate entity as holder
<psu> you also avoid potential for legal shennanigans by defendants
<jcater> I should step in to clarify something here
<jcater> the Copyright Assignment, iirc, does not take any copyright rights away from the person writing the code
<jcater> but it extends the rights to the FSF as well
<jcater> so in essence, you are granting them the right to defend your code
<psu> yes
<jcater> just wanted to make sure that was clear :)
<jcater> you, as an author, aren't giving up any rights
<psu> "subcontracting the enforcement process" in effect
<jcater> you are just making them a joint holder, in essence
<jcater> of course, I am not a lawyer
<jcater> that's just how it's been explained to me over and over
Action: psu thinks the FSF's lawyers r0x0r
<jcater> larsu: we need to get you involved in our code, since you don't work w/Noluska any more :)
<jcater> it's sad to hear that they want to go proprietary
<jcater> imho, they had a nice niche product to be a free one
<jcater> but if they are gonna go proprietary, that is a heavily competitive field
<psu> The GNU GPL is, regardless of anything else, a brilliant piece of legal thinking
<jcater> psu: yes, it is... it still boggles my mond
<jcater> mind
<larsu> sorry.. had to change a baby's diaper.. i'm catching up now
<psu> Like in judo, you use the weight of copyright law against itself ;-)
<jcater> derek and I routinely (here lately routinely == once a month) have to ask for their help
<psu> euwww
<jcater> in clarifying stuff
<jcater> :)
<larsu> thanks for explaining the copyright assignment... i wasn't aware it worked like that
<psu> we don't make a big deal of it - key issue as jcater says is none of your rights are infringed
<larsu> right
<larsu> i'd be glad to help with code
<larsu> i've haven't looked at any of it for about 6 months, but it'll probably come back to me :)
<jcater> larsu: did you leave noguska prior to them starting the proprietary rewrite?
<larsu> yes
<jcater> ok, cool
Action: jcater wouldn't want to see a conflict of interest there
<larsu> i don't know they have started.. i just got (accidentally?) cc'd on an e-mail that said they were going to
lupo (~lupo@pD9542C22.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<lupo> huh?
<jcater> ??
<psu> duh!
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/designer-docks.png
<jcater> for anyone who'd like a preview of Designer 0.5.0's docking capability
<jcater> every tool is swappable
<jcater> it can be in a pane in the main window
<jcater> or a popup dialog like before
<jcater> if you put more than one tool in the same pane
<jcater> it creates a notebook to contain them
<jcater> (as is the case with the left and bottom pane, but not the top-right one)
<lupo> :-)
<lupo> have you seen the link to pydesigner.sf.net?
<lupo> jcater: sdi looks better than mdi, in fact
<jcater> no
<jcater> that comes up as an invalid project
<jcater> lupo: I originally had designer be an sdi instead of mdi
<jcater> but people complained
<jcater> so I made it mdi
<jcater> then other people complained
<jcater> so I'
<jcater> I've come full circle
<jcater> and let the user decide :)
Action: jcater prefers a combination of the two
<jcater> the tools I use frequently, I hate having as a second window
<lupo> anyway, it looks phantastic and usable
<lupo> great work
<jcater> thanks
Action: psu had a metal block there
<lupo> erm
<lupo> pydbdesigner.sf.net
<psu> looks good
<lupo> schema editor in py/wx
Action: psu would change the tagline at bottom to 
<psu> "Hey, let's be careful out there..."
Action: psu still remembers Hill Street Blues
<lupo> by whom?
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("rebooting").
lupo (~lupo@pD9542C22.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1"
fixe (sfad@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-246-77.dialup.tiscali.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (jan@xdsl-195-14-207-109.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> hi all :)
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<siesel> hi jbailey
<jbailey> hi siesel
heikoV (~heiko@D5762B50.kabel.telenet.be) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<ariel_> hi jan
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting").
<siesel> hi ariel_
derek (~laurie@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> larsu: you still around?
siesel (jan@xdsl-195-14-207-109.netcologne.de) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<larsu> i'm around now
ariel_ (~ariel@ppp-217-133-246-77.dialup.tiscali.it) left irc: "Uscita dal client"
<derek> sorry for slow resopnse need faster computer
<larsu> no prob. :)
<derek> finally have family using it
<derek> so its burning cd's, downloading music and processing digital film
Action: derek is loving that linux is able to do all these things now
<larsu> heh
<derek> though it makes it so i cant use the computer much anymore :
<derek> )
<derek> i hear you were a NOLA coder (or the NOLA coder)
<derek> and might be interested in working on gnue 
Action: derek talked for sometime to a lady a noguska about the gpl and submitting patches to them
<derek> probably about time you stopped working on nola
<larsu> right
<larsu> kathleen probably
<derek> yip
<larsu> i stopped working on it around the middle of may
<larsu> when i left the company
<derek> well long term we felt that we were better doing a fork
<derek> as it seemed as though it would be hard to get changes to happen going that route
<larsu> knowing the company, i'd agree with you
<derek> and since we were not tied to php frontend much likely it would be cumbersome to maintain that
<larsu> right
<derek> im doing gnue-sb (gnue small business) which will be a gnue framework approach to the similar domain
Action: derek notes the other issue i had with nola was some dependencies/leaning towards print shop
<larsu> i don't know anything about GNUe forms, but intend to learn.  seems great
<derek> my question to you is are you interested in doing stuff with gnue?
<derek> looking to take nola and mold it from where it sits etc
<derek> is web frontend high priority to you etc
<larsu> i am.  i don't have a lot of time to code at the moment, but may in a few months.
<derek> i.e. im very excited to see you here and hoping you are anxious to work :)
<derek> or at least test drive and give feedbck
<derek> er feedback
<larsu> i don't have any vision for it at the moment, except i'd like to see it integrated to the GNUe way of doing things
<Mr_You> I've got so much going on, but I really want to piece together some services+products+accounting, etc. (nola) 
<larsu> i wanted to find out what you guys were working on, and short-term can answer questions about nola, and why we did things certain ways, etc
<jcater> why php + mysql?
Action: jcater ducks
<larsu> hopefully i can code too.  i don't have a lot of time right now, but have some
<larsu> heh
<derek> cool
<larsu> mysql, because a requirement was to run server cross platform, and be $$ free
<derek> my biggest question after talking with noguska
<derek> was
<derek> did anyone (clients) ever use nola?
<derek> we tried to call noguska and ask for references that were using it at got no where
<derek> it seemed they considered it doa 
<derek> and were using non free non web for most clients
<larsu> they sold 1 support contract while i was there
Action: derek doesnt want you too get into noguska politics mind you
<derek> i was just curious how hard nola had been tested in production
<larsu> originally, they developed accounting (and print shop mgmt) in qbasic, dos based.  
<Mr_You> personally I can see why someone wouldn't purchase nola
<Mr_You> compared to a polish commercial app
<derek> ah so php + mysql was a serious step up ;)
<larsu> right
<Mr_You> based on looks alone
<Mr_You> well I would pay $50 for nola
<Mr_You> $50-$100
<larsu> that and language learning curve was important
<derek> larsu: very soon i will be digging deeper and will have many a questions im sure
<larsu> it was a step to go from flat files to sql :)
<derek> i have installed and configured
<derek> and messed with it
<Mr_You> but to compete it would need to do what GNUe will 
<derek> and even done some gnue conversion
<derek> as was micah
<larsu> cool
<derek> but i have started to go more from scratch witth gnue-sb
<derek> as it was easier than dissecting what was there (and i had no intentions to maintain the php web part)
<derek> so as soon as we decided we were not going to try to be nola compatiable upstream i started view it as a 'reference' instead  of a bsae
<derek> though for accounts receivable and payable and general ledger i might change my mind
<larsu> to answer your question, i'm not aware of it being heavily tested in production anywhere
<Mr_You> derek: I thought that might come up for me also (from scratch instead dissecting)
<derek> to get something out quicker
<larsu> when i left, they still used their dos based software in house
<Mr_You> derek: ideally.. I want to find something implemented in ______ (lawson, peachtree, etc, etc: best of breed) application and visually build from that
<larsu> the back end code is pretty integrated with the web front end, so that'll take some work to remove
<larsu> what are your thoughts on the schema?
<larsu> do you think that'll stay mostly intact, or vastly different?
<derek> well thats what is funny
<derek> we were looking to 'adopt' or 'build' on something
<jcater> larsu: as the person doing the initial research
<derek> we looked at like 10 dfferent projects they were horrid
<derek> we found nola and said
<jcater> nola had one of the better schemas
<derek> the schema is nice
<derek> even if everything else is useless
<larsu> :)
<derek> the schema is a good start
<Mr_You> what about looking at a commercial app?
<jcater> we looked at sql-ledger as people raved about it
<jcater> Mr_You: no way we can do that
<jcater> no way at all
<Mr_You> why?
<derek> as we figured on having to do a lot of rework on ui to make it GNUe framework
<jcater> I can't afford a lawsuit
<Mr_You> a schema is copyrighted?
<jcater> yes
<Mr_You> ok then
<derek> thats why i asy i dont want to maintain php ui :)
<derek> larsu: i had stronger inventory/contact needs that what nola did
<Mr_You> I guess I'm just gonna try to build what I can from scratch and let ya'll check it out ;-)
<derek> so i was starting there for a client
<derek> when it comes to ar/ap/gl i will likely start with nola schema and build on it
<larsu> i see
<jcater> Mr_You: I have the schema on our accountants system for Great Plains
<jcater> but I will not even glimpse at it
<jcater> as that's a conflict of interest big time
<jcater> believe me, it's tempting
<derek> the invenotry and other stuff of nola was too print shop based iirc
<Mr_You> what about visual?  just copying the screen fields and labels?
<larsu> yeah, there's a bunch of tables in the schema that are only for print shop stuff
<larsu> i think everything named est*
<derek> Mr_You: visual stuff is hard to 'copyright' but it can be 'patented or trademarked'
<Mr_You> I'm definitely going to incporate products AND services with mine.
<derek> think Apple's AQUA themes
<Mr_You> derek: oh yeah :-(
<Mr_You> well I dunno if you can patent every screen
Action: jcater thinks it's dangerous to just try to emulate a commercial package's schema and fields
<derek> just remember that :-(
<jcater> even if you avoid any legal trouble
<derek> and think free software is important because of that :-(
<jcater> you then become nothing but a knock-off :)
<Mr_You> yeah
<Mr_You> jcater: well you have Freed a good application ;-)
<jcater> of course, james and I have Oracle Form's backgrounds
<Mr_You> Free them all! hehe
<jcater> we are not, however, trying to do a duplicate of forms
<jcater> granted forms has influenced us alot
<jcater> we do things differently than they do
<jcater> some things very differently
<Mr_You> like what?
<jcater> although an ex-Oracle person would tell you
<jcater> that we are influenced by them
<jcater> it's like one's cooking style
<jcater> if you grow up in a Southern kitchen
<jcater> and you start up your own restaurant with your own home-made original recipes
<jcater> odds are
<jcater> anyone eating at your restaurant can tell you were influenced by southern styles
<jcater> :)
<jcater> that's my analogy for the day
<Mr_You> yeah
<jcater> just like if derek was doing most of forms
<jcater> his would lean more towards delphi
<jcater> not that he would be trying to recreate delphi
<Mr_You> is it you or james who has the diskless terminals
<Mr_You> ?
<jcater> both
<jcater> me first
<larsu> i do too
<jcater> then I convinced him :)
<Mr_You> I can't for the life of me get this box to get a decent image
<jcater> actually, he did Sun diskless' stuff many years ago
<jcater> so I guess he did them before I did
<jcater> but I did the linux LTSP stuff
<jcater> he uses it at work too now iirc
<Mr_You> strangely enough this process is also left out of the ssic-linux how-to, but its not like its hard.
<Mr_You> I get everything from segment out of memory (IIRC) and "bad image"..
<Mr_You> its a pentium MMX diskless box with Celeron server
<Mr_You> its wacked
<Mr_You> guess I'll try disabling initrd and dropping down to 386 next.
<jcater> ssic?
<Mr_You> Single System Image Cluster - Linux
<Mr_You> ssic-linux.sf.net
<jcater> oh
<Mr_You> SSIC might make it into the kernel core distro one day
<Mr_You> how did distribution get shortened to distro?  have I been conned?  ;-)
<Mr_You> slang heh
<jamest> mmmm ltsp
<jamest> proof positive that not all jcater's ideas are wacked
<jamest> :)
<derek> ltsp = logical thinking should prevail
<Mr_You> man thats hilarious.. Sammy Davis Jr. called Billy Crystal who had put a Sammy Davis Jr. impression on his answering machine and left a message saying "Who the hell is this?" and wouldn't talk to him for a month heh.
SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-251.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-107-182.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "[x]chat"
Mr_You (~car@gso167-138-145.triad.rr.com) left irc: "."
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> whiirrrd up!
<chillywilly> yo
<chillywilly> so anyone see the packers lose?
<chillywilly> and the warreb sapp cheap shot
<chillywilly> warren
derek (~laurie@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<chillywilly> hmm, didn't my post to the list get through?
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<jcater> which list?
<chillywilly> maybe I didn't have an alias for it
<chillywilly> I wrote it in a hurry
<chillywilly> gnue-dev
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> when did you send it?
Action: jcater doesn't see it in the approval queue
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> gnue-dev is moderated?
<jcater> not if you are a member
Action: chillywilly notes that in his sent folder is To: gnue-dev
<chillywilly> i.e., not mutt alias
<chillywilly> therefore no real post ;)
<jcater> but a lot of times ppl join w/a general email address
<jcater> but try to post under something else
<chillywilly> I should be subscribed
<chillywilly> I am getting the mails ;)
<chillywilly> yea
warmfuzzy (~hugo@12-224-222-32.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> I want a warmfuzzy!
<warmfuzzy> I have about 30 kittens, shall I send you one?
<chillywilly> aaaaawwww
<jcater> gack!
<chillywilly> um, I dun like cats that much though
<jcater> oh, cats
Action: jcater thought this might be hugh hefner
<warmfuzzy> Since my neighbors moved and left about 10 cats (unspayed) behind I haven't liked cats much either
<chillywilly> well guys wish me luck as I am sending a buddy my resume for a "support" position in their IT department...and guess what kinda work they do there jcater?
<jcater> pimping?
<jcater> I dunno?
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> printing magazine and such
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> magazines
Action: jcater imagines large-scale pimping would require a good IT infrastructure
<jcater> what kind of magazines?
<jcater> dude
dres (~dres@mail.lewismoss.org) left irc: "see ya"
<jcater> that would be weird
<chillywilly> I dunno I need to learn a little more about what they do
<jcater> as our paths would probably cross
<chillywilly> scary
<chillywilly> I think they are called "cell" something...my memory sucks ;)
<chillywilly> you know of any pblishers up here that you deal with that has a name kinda like that?
<jcater> hang on...
<chillywilly> I think they do a lot of "printing" too whatever that exactly means
<jcater> that means they do their own fulfillment
<jcater> most magazines these days outsource that
<chillywilly> well they do a lot of graphics work on macs is what I was told...not that that means anything ;)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> that's the defacto standard
<jcater> QuarkXPress on Macs
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> he was talking how they moved from NT to windows 2000 server
<chillywilly> and I was like what no Linux ;)?
<chillywilly> he goes oh we have Mac OS X for UNIX
<jcater> we work with 18 publishers out of WI
<chillywilly> woah
<jcater> I don't recognize the cell name, though
<chillywilly> maybe I have that part wrong
<chillywilly> I'll know more Tuesday night
<chillywilly> when I see him at church
<jcater> what city are they in?
<chillywilly> don't know
<chillywilly> around Milwaukee
<chillywilly> I would guess
<jcater> wow
<chillywilly> Milwakee, Brookfiield, Germantown, Menomonee Falls
<jcater> I didn't realize we had so many dealings in WI
<chillywilly> West Allis
<chillywilly> Wauwatosa...it could be anywhere ;)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> otay
<chillywilly> I still need to pump him for more information
<chillywilly> jcater: you are VP right? I can say I know you ;)?
<jcater> um
<jcater> I wouldn't
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> we somehow got on the blacklist of one of the area publishers
Action: jcater thinks its because our CEO has quite a temper
<chillywilly> blacklist?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<jcater> just don't go there :)
<chillywilly> well I don't know him ;)
<chillywilly> so when are you going to start jcater consulting eh? ;)
warmfuzzy (~hugo@12-224-222-32.client.attbi.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
<jcater> chillywilly: actually, it would be in your worst interest to mention me or my company
<jcater> as that could be a big conflict of interest
<jcater> i.e., being a friend w/someone who works for a magazine clearinghouse
<chillywilly> yea, but you wouldn't hire me anyway ;)
<chillywilly> I probably won't say anthing
<chillywilly> I was teasing you
<jcater> I meant, it's a conflict of interest for a publisher to hire someone friends with a magazine clearinghouse place
Action: jcater is being serious :)
<chillywilly> yea, I can see that issue
<chillywilly> what's the differen between the two?
<chillywilly> I don't know anything about the publishing business
<jcater> publishers --->  highly overpaid creative ppl who put together magazine layouts 
<chillywilly> claeringhouse is a reseller?
<jcater> and sell advertising
<chillywilly> k
<jcater> fulfillment house ---> print the actual magazines.  they are a contractor for the publisher
<jcater> (sometimes small publishers do both of these)
<chillywilly> alrighty
<jcater> clearinghouse ---> we have contacts with hundreds of publishers
<jcater> smaller companies send their orders to us
<jcater> we then split up all sales and send to the proper fulfillment house/publisher
<chillywilly> you are a middle man?
<jcater> we cut a few thousand checks a week
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> ick ;)
<jcater> well
<jcater> consider this
<jcater> you want to sell magazines
<chillywilly> cut out the middle men! ;)
<jcater> dude
<jcater> not in publishing
<chillywilly> I am teasing yo again
<jcater> if you want to sell magazines
<jcater> and go knocking at Time's door
<jcater> they'll laugh you out of the building
<jcater> it's all volume
<jcater> plus consider getting contact with, say, 1,000 magazines and putting together a catalog
<chillywilly> so you are essentially a reseller right?
<jcater> that means hundreds of checks you have to cut each week
<jcater> well
<jcater> more like a distributor in essence
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> we handle customer service too
<chillywilly> didn't you say the ppl you work for have 2 companies?
<jcater> well, this is the agency part of the business
<chillywilly> what is their ther business?
<chillywilly> other
<jcater> magazine fundraising in schools
<jcater> that's actually the bigger one
<chillywilly> like when the kids get the magazines to sell stuff?
<jcater> yip
<jcater> that's us
<jcater> hey, one of our bigger salesreps is in your area
<chillywilly> do you like the mnagazine business?
<chillywilly> erm, magazine
<jcater> um
<jcater> it's very volatile
<jcater> but I imagine the IT part would be fun
<jcater> what school is scotty(sp?) in?
<chillywilly> a Menomonee Falls school
<chillywilly> Valley View Elementary
<jcater> bummer
<chillywilly> I went there when I was little too
<jcater> I thought we might have that account
<jcater> but we don't 
<chillywilly> he was selling candy bars a while ago
<chillywilly> didn't have any mags for that though ;)
<chillywilly> at least I didn't see anything
<chillywilly> hrrm, then again maybe there was a "catalog"
<chillywilly> are there any "popular" magazines that you guys sell?
<chillywilly> liek something I would know by name ;)
<chillywilly> like
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> you name it
<jcater> we probably have it
<jcater> http://www.readingathome.com/shop/
<jcater> is a partial listing
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> Compter Gaming World ;)
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> hrrrm, you guys do a LOT of mags
<chillywilly> PC World
rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> around 1000 iirc
<jcater> not all are on that site, though
<chillywilly> jcater: so basically publishers/fulfillment houses go to youse guys and that's how they reach the masses?
<chillywilly> interesrting
<jcater> we are one of two routes
<chillywilly> thanks for the mag biz 101 lesson ;)
<jcater> well, wait
<chillywilly> could come in handy ;)
<jcater> if you want a biz lesson
<jcater> I can give you a better one :)
Action: chillywilly is all ears
<jcater> the reason they come to us
<chillywilly> shoot
<jcater> is because getting a new subscriber is EXPENSIVE
<chillywilly> ah
<jcater> so they let us find the new subscribers
<jcater> and once they have them
<jcater> they can more easily renew
<jcater> the average publisher
<jcater> sends out 8 renewal letters a year
<jcater> to each customer
<jcater> but we are one of two channels for them to get new sales
<jcater> the other channel (and it's about 50/50)
<jcater> are direct-to-store single-copy sales
Action: jcater knows very little about that part
<chillywilly> so you guys spam for various mags? ;)
<jcater> as there are only 2-3 companies out there that do that
<jcater> well, that's not fair
<jcater> the publishers are the ones spamming
<jcater> we never resell our lists
<jcater> ever
<chillywilly> sure it's not fair but it makes the conversation more fun ;)
Nick change: rdean -> rdean-ut2k3
<chillywilly> well that's cool
<jcater> that's especially important for our customers
<jcater> as they know the publishers will spam them with mail
<chillywilly> it
<jcater> but if we sold our lists
<jcater> it would be a direct link to the school
<chillywilly> 's the ethical thing to do, imho
<jcater> the publisher has no clue where our orders come from
<jcater> so they can't tie anything back to a school
<jcater> but could you imagine, having a mailing list of ppl who bought products for a school fundraiser
<jcater> we stand our ground though
<chillywilly> yea, it could be a bit tempting
<chillywilly> so, what about "online" mags...I mean isn't the future to do away with all the paper or is this really not the case?
<jcater> nah
<jcater> that was a big fear going into the late nineties
<jcater> but it just isn't so
<chillywilly> why fear it?
<jcater> well
<chillywilly> cause they can cut out the middle man that way ? ;)
<chillywilly> or your role is reduced?
<jcater> no, not a fear for us
<jcater> it was a fear for the publishers
<jcater> we could easily adapt to whatever
<jcater> as we are distributors
<jcater> they only know magazine publishing
<jcater> nothing else
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> here's another tidbit for you
<jcater> most larger magazines are entirely advertiser based
<jcater> the $20 you get for a magazine
<jcater> goes to the distributor or to the fulfillment house to cover printing
<jcater> they get their money from the ad revenue
<chillywilly> alright
<jcater> s/you get/you give/
<jcater> iow, if you are trying to get a job at a magazine
<jcater> the big question is
<jcater> what value can you bring to the advertisers
<jcater> as sick and commercialized as that sounds
<jcater> that's the way it works
<jcater> :(
<jcater> of course, if this is a smaller magazine
<jcater> I doubt they have gotten completely to that point
<jcater> ok, that ends today's lesson :)
Action: jcater has been in magazines for 9 years... it's really depressing
<chillywilly> you don't think something like the net reduces a distributor's role at all?
<chillywilly> I jst wonder about things like that
<chillywilly> as that seems to be the major power struggle in the music and film industries
<chillywilly> and the reason for crappy laws like the DMCA, but perhaps I shouldn't think of mags that way
<jcater> mags are a different ballgame, imho
<jcater> well, we don't see it if it is a problem
<jcater> the big power struggle these days
<jcater> are with celebrity magazines
<jcater> when the celebrity wants creative control
<jcater> but the publisher expects to have the control
<jcater> c.f., Rosie's magazine
<chillywilly> hmmm, yea I guess the power struggle is really between the publishers and the authors
<chillywilly> but most general mags don't have one particular "author"
drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<chillywilly> so it's not the same creature
<chillywilly> hmmm, a GPL'd magazine...that would be something...different ;)
<chillywilly> GFDL'd even
<chillywilly> not sure what the point of it would be
<jcater> there are huge, definite costs in printing a magazine
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> but ti would be electronic of course ;)
<chillywilly> hmmm, Free Software Magazine anyone ? ;)
<chillywilly> already been done!
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> isn't that Brave GNU World/
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> and the FSF-China gy does FS Magazine
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> or started the project a while back
<chillywilly> I haven't looked at it in a while
Action: jcater and some friends have toyed with starting a magazine
<chillywilly> don't know how much progress has been made
<chillywilly> what would it be about?
<jcater> didn't matter
<jcater> between the few of us
<jcater> we've done everything there is to do 
<jcater> in the magazine business
<jcater> except actually publish a magazine
<jcater> :)
<jcater> so we wanted to try that out
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> well I'll definitely let you know the name of the company here and you can tell me what you know ;)
<chillywilly> well I'd appreciate if yo did ;)
<chillywilly> thanks a lot for the info tonight :)
<chillywilly> I really really should send you a box of donuts some time :)
<jcater> of course, this is the uber-condensed version of the business
<chillywilly> well yea but that's probably all my little brain can handle right now ;)
<chillywilly> just the overview
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I am so looking forward to having my boss "talk" with me tomorrow... :(
<jcater> :(
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<jcater> just repeat these words:
<jcater> "Dude, I *swear* I didn't know it was your wife"
<chillywilly> lol
rdean-ut2k3 (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<chillywilly> he got mad because they wanted me to do one more service call, but I already picked scotty up from school...then he ws like telling me he needs to talk t me about this and that
<chillywilly> you know I missed this father and son thing the other night because I was at this job in Racine until 6pm
drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk1-3-cust16.renf.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> but do you think they think of these things? nope
<chillywilly> Racine is abot an hor away too
<chillywilly> er, hour
<larsu> i've got a 6 mo old, and a pretty non-demanding telecommute job
<larsu> works out very nice.  i get to be the stay at home parent :)
<jcater> cool
<jcater> but I don't see how you get any work done with a 6 mo old at home
<jcater> :)
<jcater> this your first?
<larsu> yes it is
<jcater> congrats
<larsu> it's a struggle sometimes
<larsu> he's normally quite content, but every once in a while i end up working with a screaming baby on my lap
<larsu> my wife works also, and i tend to do most of my work when she's home
Action: jcater has a 4 yr old
<jcater> I don't see how you do it
<larsu> like i said, it's a struggle sometimes
<larsu> lots of fun tho
<larsu> on cue, he's crying 
<larsu> heh
<jcater> lol
<ajmitch> hello
<jcater> howdy
<jcater> how's life down under?
<ajmitch> going good
Action: SachaS has a 3 weeks old :)
<larsu> wow, cool
<chillywilly> night all
chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-202-50.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org"
<Vee2d2> ap
<ajmitch> oops, shouldn't have pulled out phone cord :)
<Vee2d2> I have 5 month old and a 2.6yr old daughters and work from home.. most productively at night time. =)
<ajmitch> :)
derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> hey derek
<derek> hey
<derek> this room shrank
Action: derek wonders if jcater started irc nicks instead of donuts late this afternoon
<jcater> must be the cold water
<derek> er s/started/started eating
<derek> jcater: rofl... i didnt get the reference at first re: cold water
<ajmitch> chillywilly isn't here]
Action: jcater is on his way out, actually
<jcater> about to commit all my weekend work
<ajmitch> commit & run...
<derek> yummy
<jcater> ah, not as bad as I thought
<jcater> only 25 files
Action: derek wishes i had something to commit
<derek> grueling weekend
<derek> gnue-sb will action big time this week though
<derek> holidays are glorious things
<jcater> lol
--- Mon Nov 25 2002