hehe yes, i am used to using passwords, and it's screwed up now jcater_ (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. pg_shadow changes ya think? jcater_ (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: Client Quit ajmitch: is 7.3 running for you? oops wrong icon chillywilly: yes, it is, why? hmmm, it just says it is starting up but then it lies and now I get nothing in the logs well afaik it's supposedly running oh, perhaps not. oh well I think it is b0rked serves me right for trying to upgrade chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "sleepytime" ajmitch: cool gtk2 driver works it looks a little sloppy still, but it works yeah one thing the bug list seems to omit is that no menus exist :) huh? feel free to add that bug to dcl :) damn pygtk is UGLY code is there a good reference manual somewhere? i already have one bug i want to squish asap and should be cake haha no what is it? i thtink it would be much cleaner if the comments were gone er commenting of non used code somewhere in here you do right self.dlg = gtk.Dialog(_("GNU Enterprise: Login to %s") % loginData[0], loginWindow, gtk.DIALOG_MODAL|gtk.DIALOG_DESTROY_WITH_PARENT, (_("_LOGIN"), gtk.RESPONSE_OK,_("_CANCEL"), gtk.RESPONSE_CANCEL)) i want to do something like self.dlg.RESPONSE_OK.focus = true why? Action: derek knows that isnt correct syntax but if you could point me to some docs ajmitch: let me rephrase that i don't think that'll fix the problem of having to click it self.dlg.RESPONSE_OK.default = true or such in other widget sets there is way to define a button that will get event fired if 'enter' is clicked so focus is bad term but having to tab through is a pain in the ass yea, i tried to fix that self.dlg.set_default_response(gtk.RESPONSE_OK) didn't want to work tho ;) as 'enter' in the text entry doesn't seem to help much well i guess the poor mans way would be to have the 'enter' event of either dialog box fire the click event of ok yep but for consistency, in the wx driver, 'enter' in any but the last text entry takes you to the next text entry widget ok that would work enter event of password fires ok click event enter event of username moves focus to password yes Action: derek figured it would be a quick fix and something to get me started on the pygtk path but gtk programming is ugly even in python :( :) it makes it fun thats pisser about widget set coming from C Action: derek liked borlands VCL because it was clean Action: derek wonders if there is a python widget set somewhere and the bindings are generated i mean where the widget set was written in python not something 'swigged' :) not advocating using such a thing, that was more an academic question well i've got more important things to get working again tonight, like postgresql ;) as much as im not a huge fan of wx, i dont think their api is all that bad it just doesnt work :) yeah SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-224.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). hmmm ajmitch: ok i think bug fixed good committed? self.dlg.set_default_response(gtk.RESPONSE_OK) no my cvs copy i dont trust gah? self.dlg.set_default_response(gtk.RESPONSE_OK) and i dont want cvs head right yet that's what i have in my local copy which i pasted earlier can you possibly add that line after self.dlg = gtk.Dialog(_("GNU Enterprise: Login to %s") % loginData[0], loginWindow, gtk.DIALOG_MODAL|gtk.DIALOG_DESTROY_WITH_PARENT, (_("_LOGIN"), gtk.RESPONSE_OK,_("_CANCEL"), gtk.RESPONSE_CANCEL)) and test Action: derek had same line later in code and it failed i can try moving it up right after self.dlg seems to have made it work or im losing it or just up above the show all im losing it it does work though here is the thing.... umm if you dont have that line the focus goes to first widget if you DO have that line focus goes to the LOGIN box here it just sets the default focus to the ok button yeah, i's annoying HOWEVEr the minute you click into the entry box it moves focus Action: derek doesnt think thats how the document 'says' it should work so it's definitely not what we want but that code appears to have an effect, just not the advertised one lol yes psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hi psu good morning ;-) heh, 0.4.2 announcement made it to gnue-announce SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-224.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. 0.4.2 = he "how long is it since jamest did a release, anyway?" release s/he/the ajmitch: any clue how to make 'events' for gtk objects so if i have a gtk.entry how to do an gtk.entry.onexit or such dunno still trying to unbreak postgres ok do they make a pygtk book? doubt it hmm ok they call them signals and there aint much to choose from :) Action: psu needs to do something with our FAQ reinhard (~reinhard@M698P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. is there a proper tool for doing FAQs, to handle the structure (list of contents & hyperlinks) automatically? let me guess - FAQ mode in Emacs? hehe there is a python interactive faq somewhere dunno I like those. ajmitch: docs suck and so do samples yes, i know that :) docs are for non-311t d00dz who can't/won't read the source ;-) the source is for those that aren't One With The Program ;) hmm can't find the python one on freshmeat.net www.makefaq.org but its not interactive psu: http://www.lodestar2.com/software/makefaq/ do Mr_You beat me to the punch ack I have started development of makefaq 3.0 that will include the ability to read in XML files that conform to this DTD. (You can view a sample faq.xml.) from makefaq home page Action: derek runs to bed for real Action: derek is away: bed I recall a python interactive one somewhere I noted "Python Interactive FAQ" but no url of where I had seen it hehe :-( http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw.py?req=home good moring all http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw.py?req=all#1.18 thats it dang, i forgot to ask if there was a solution to master/detail with mysql btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-224.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). MCArkan (~Xavier@217.167.178.166) joined #gnuenterprise. hi [02:46] Last message repeated 1 time(s). I tried a bit gnue yesteday looks nice :) I was just wondering if one could use forms without gnue-forms umm there's not really any other implementation, apart from phpforms because, what if I want to disable the user to commit new entries for ex ? the user => some users hmm? you want it to be read-only for some users? Action: MCArkan nods hmmmmmmmm some user use computer in such a way I don't want them the write things ;)) i'm sure there's a proper way of doing it :) doh Action: ajmitch has used forms for too short a period of time to help imho a way to do that would be to plug ldap looking before committing in the app server Action: ajmitch shrugs :) sankar_ (~sankar@12-230-156-244.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sankar_ (~sankar@12-230-156-244.client.attbi.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). hello all hi ra3vat_ malkowich (~sankar@12-230-156-244.client.attbi.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hello ajmitch hello everyone, hello malkowich I need some info on GNUe like where are we going with this? today? it'd better ask from microsoft :) lol what info do you need? I mean how this is called enterprise it's for building ERP apps :) as you could have these tools seperately, and be used for anything nothing to do with star trek is anyone familiar with Symantec ACT? now that's a great tool so if I'm getting this correct, GNUe will help do something like SAP? yeah i heard someone mentions JD Edwards/Baan/Oracle/Peoplesoft/SAP ::) so far, I have seen things like a form generator some sort of a rdbms like oRacle Forms think of GNUe Forms like Oracle SQL Forms ok and we do want to use these tools to build erp apps but that doesn't make a tool enterprise oops, sorry continue ra3vat.... gnue-forms helps to rapidly build data-entry forms to enterprise db you will have to excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. I remember working with Visual Basic/ some back end wiht an ODBC-bridge to build db apps From Microsoft prespective, if I can put that app in a client machine and move the db over to a high end server(the client has enough code to handle enc/dec etc) I got myself a Enterprise app,or DO I? I mentioned Visual Basic 'coz at that time, they had a "Form wizard" which with an ADO control make making FORMS very easy why not if this system cover needs of the enterprise? we do have GNUe Designer for the same great advandage i could do my forms with simplest editor advantage What I'm asking is, the above app I had worked on didn't seem to enterprise level, I see enterprise as being something more roboust like using an application server between the client & the database to handle the logic? sure, you can have a TM or something like that too... First let me say something so that we are on the same page I'm not here defending any technology(I know very little of it) I need to know what makes an app or a tool enterprise grade? jcater uses gnue forms to run call center with about 30 clients machine, papo team is very close to release modified version for manufacturing project i see them as enterprise installation we can grow from malkowich: usually high scalability and developer options is GNUe the only enterprise(suite) of tools available for open sourc? I hope you mean scalable at the backend, middle tier etc ...not client side as Client is the least accessible interms of modification after release I mean after you distribute it locally or some other location geographically not sure I follow you. what would you scale? its ability to handle millions of transactions a second say I had some serious change in the backend, I dropped some tables, aquired a company I do that at the DBMS level in terms of tranascatios, it depends on the transaction manager sitting at the server right, we have an app server in development how roboust that is, ok for doing things like merging databases, integrating existing stuff, there's GNUe Integrator (mainly planning for now) and now i need to transfer some stuff from mysql to postgresql :) ok, let me suggest something that might come up in a kernel change log how good is a transaction manager inside a kernel? or has this war been fought already? i don't know why you'd want it inside a kernel although journalled filesystems have their own transactional properties yep, but that is FS i doubt that a kernel transaction manager (whatever that actually is :) ) would be effective you see, if I were to have this great server handling MM of transactions, I wouldn't run it on a default linux kernel would I? depends on what you'd call defautl you might embed one into an appliance, but I don't think a normal box you would. ok, a standard kernel like the one at kernel.org now 2.4.20 it would be overkill for the appliance probably, unless it was a big appliance hehe.. quad proc. ideally you want to minimise the number of system calls, as each call involves a costly privilege switch having a customize kernel and having a transaction manager kernel module are two different things shouldn't I have to tweak it a little, hire good programmers to change the code what does that have to do with havinf a transaction manager in the kernel? :) sure you can hire me to customize you a kernel ;-) you see, I don't like patches/fixes etc on an expensive server you mean you don't want to upgrade a server to risk data? SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-224.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. not following what patches/fixes and expensive server have anything to do with one another.. Lets go over things I'll get to build myself an enterprise level server ok a SUN Sparc nope.. so I get an Intel machine very very high end/clusters perhaps I get Oracle dbms or some other great ones then I install a Redhat Adv server/United linux? something doesn't sound right yeah oops may be I'm down right stupid, but if I do infacat have an enterprise system there, I just install GNUe and I'm all set(for developers and my midget workforce)? no, you have the tools to build enterprise level stuff :) Now we are talking ok currently GNUe doesn't have much in the way of pre-built packages, but that is something that is planned/being worked on where you can use prebuilt forms/schemas/code in your ERP app btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: ofcourse, Automatic form generation/schema generation sounds good. or did I assume the "automatic" part? no, there's automatic generation of that ok, malkowich: it is very easy to give gnue a try it will answer many of your questions yes I get it, I have been reading up on GNUe lately, not as much as you can see I see future in the app server part and the intergrator part others might fall back to new tools which do the same thing like form generator oh, one more question GNUe is being developed with python right so if some company installs GNUe, but does the form generation part using the tools, but wants to write the logic in C++ or C, I assume thay can do that SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-224.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) they will be able to ok thanks for you knowlegable replies ajmitch, I still am an end user of the OS software :) no problems but I feel I can contribute, and GNUe is somthing I feel I can work on still learning how to write code and to participate in an OS project may be sometime in the near future you will see my name in the contributor list thanks everyone malkowich (~sankar@12-230-156-244.client.attbi.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" ajmitch: which lightweight db except mysql you can suggest for win32 ? i need full gnue installation on one pc could it be your csv driver? j/k heh paqan (whaq@202.155.120.221) joined #gnuenterprise. not-so-lightweight but just as useless at the moment is gadfly :) i think btami suggested firebird which is apparantly quite a decent db does gadfly almost useless? hmm, try it & see i don't think it's that wonderful siesel fixed the problem that made it unusable with forms :) ok, thanks reinhard (~reinhard@M698P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) reinhard (~reinhard@M698P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ajmitch: do you understand the problem with lack of sequence in mysql? does anyone knows how I can generate the pdf from the sgml file from the docbook repository ? yeah, it causes master/detail to be rather screwy if the primary key of master is set to autoincrement, then the detail portion needs to know what it is set to when updating, otherwise it will complain so there needs to be an ugly hack in the db driver MCArkan: is it gnue sgml doc? ajmitch: i'm not quite understand ra3vat_: yes what file? may be there exist a doc in other format? i can't help with generating SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-52.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. is there some canvas widget planned on forms ? did not heard any talk later with jamest/jcater jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi jamest hi dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hi dsmith Howdy dsmith: what are you hacking on ? Working actually. MCArkan: Firewalls at a big bank ajmitch: if someone comes in asking 'enterprise huh' you can always throw down that gnue has been used in production against an os/390 mainframe running db2 Action: derek isnt sure if you can get more 'enterprise' than that Action: derek is away: work derek: what about an ops ? on a linux cluster :) jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@pD9E4E4C5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. yogurt2unge (~charlie@ADSL-200-59-86-216.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. http://xminc.com/linux/wxpython.html interesting article also 0.4.2 was released on sourceforge last night lol GNU Enterprise Form Developer Not really stable yet - but looks promising. the code or the coders? jamest: we need to send him GNUe Designer : Goat Rape Edition ooooooo i think we prefer to keep that exclusive download for that dude from AZ GNUe GREAT - GNUe Goat Rape Edition Application Toolkit all i know is gtk is horribly documented, its amazing there are 'any' applications written for it Nick change: MCArkan -> MCAway revDeke: it's just cause there aren revDeke: it's just cause there aren't any real alternative. s. everything else sucks worse. reinhard (~reinhard@M698P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) grib unfortunately you are pretty correct revDeke: tho I really like the gtk2 changes. they fixed almost all of my gripes. still haven't tested the new gtkcombo yet... it was the most b0rked part of gtk1 IMO was looking at our gtk2 driver last night and could make some simple improvements quickly, (i.e. i know what i want to do) but finding decent documentation on how to do it is nearly impossible coming from a very powerful toolkit like borland's VCL and now CLX makes most of this other stuff feel like old MFC programming read: archaic revDeke: can you give more info about that manframe's gnue installation? on the record absolutely not (it doesnt exist) off record i can gladly tell you about things that dont exist ;) revDeke: dunno, never done any windows programming. gtk seems alright. once libglade came around I noticed that I started caring about gtk's problems much, much less because suddenly the % of my code my line-count that was direct GUI calls went through the floor. s/started/stopped/ :) oops, no wait. I was right the first time. reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@pD9E4E4C5.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) snowing here what is snow? she is that cute girl that lives with the dwarves right? it is supposed to snow here today but not much MCArkan (~xordoquy@APuteaux-107-1-4-153.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #gnuenterprise. we have maybe an inch, coming down right now.. maybe up to 3 inches s/,/./ " "I want to run OpenBSD on (UltraSparc III systems), because I can do stuff with it for routing, security and traffic control that I cannot do even with a $100,000 Cisco box," Becker said in an e-mail interview. " thats a good way to end an article hah! ;-) http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-975941.html if anyone is interested cool i'm actually install obsd 3.2 today however my celeron 433 is a far cry from a Ultra III :) nod jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Can anyone suggest which python corba package I ought to use? google suggests way too many. jbailey: someone suggested one in here in the last few days i don't recall which one Remosi (dahoose@port-219-88-246-95.jet.net.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. um i know the answer to this orbit-python has recently be deprecated (iirc) in favor of pyorbit (iirc) BUT jade uses this stuff all the time and there is a better one i think maybe its omniORB we use orbit-python because it was the only one that supports dynamic idl creation (so you don't have to have physical stub files) i.e. orbit is not that great of an ORB omniorb (iirc) is now gpl which is important in gnue common's rpc just an fyi and much better for business applications but if the dynamic feature isn't important, I've also heard omniOrb is much better but that's just $0.02 from a guy who cringes at the thought of corba b. we were trying to be good delegates of free software and use the more FSF based orbit 1. and the main reason was that geas was in C and omniORB didnt support C only C++ and python revDeke: yeah, I think the dynamic thing was something I noticed after the fact when I tried to do an omniORB driver for gnue-common Action: revDeke isnt overly 'excited' about corba so im just relaying what i have heard others debate jcater: you might want to look at 0.4 Dynamic Invocation and Dynamic Skeleton interfaces. 0.4? is a new feature revDeke: no I don't want to look at corba period psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust42.midd.broadband.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. :) rofl ok any appserver developers :) er gnue common rpc developers i should say Corba's fun. Thanks for the tips, folks. hi hi ajmitch matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. Hi, is there an nice and easy tutorial on deploying some case using GNUe somewhere ? TIA matkor: The developers guide for Forms is probablyyour best bet http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/forms/Developers-Guide.html it is lots of todos, but we accept patches ;-) OK .. checking , thanks Any questions, please ask in the channel We are your real-time interactive on-line help system ;-) Isomer (dahoose@port-219-88-247-207.jet.net.nz) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) psu: I think I'll drill what possible there, but first as much reading as possible ;) revDeke: is there statistic available about how many people on the mailing lists and how many downloads we have after recent releases? the mailing lists are screwy screwy? we have about 5 times as many people on gnue@gnue.org as on gnue-announce@gnue.org all that means is that your project isn't "stable" yet i guess most subscribers are on gnue-commit they are not interested in the project, but they want to read jamest's commit messages ;-) hehe morning Remosi! reinhard: the last ones were cool :) some day we need to get our 3 main lists umbrella-ed but several 100 other things on the todo list first mornin' aj my commit messages? i think jcater's "syncing machines" is far more entertaining yeah dunno why derek's always surprised he has problems when jcater actually admits in the commit msg that the patch is designed to sink Derek's machine just that odd TN spelling of "sink"... lol jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. MCArkan (~xordoquy@APuteaux-107-1-4-153.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: "Client Exiting" siesel (jan@xdsl-195-14-220-249.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. hi :) hi siesel psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust42.midd.broadband.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) hello siesel i'm just updating the new api documentation i've got some questions if you have a minute yogurt2unge (~charlie@ADSL-200-59-86-216.cordoba.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "Client Exiting" schiess los :) ok i propose to introduce a function setcontext (session_id, context) to define the current module context for all subsequent operations in the current session rather than adding context as a parameter to all function calls 2. IMHO in the "request" function we need a parameter "classname" 3. after thinking it over i'd say it could be better to not have the objectids contain the classname 1. yes, please change it. but rather have a separate classname parameter in load, store and call what is the 'request' function? do you mean requestList or 'fetch' ? requestList (in my notes it's only called "request") (probably best place to look currently is halloween 4) I don't know why, but I've allready added that classname parameter.:) ok :) in request or in load/save/call ? so 2. is ok for me too. And 3 will make things MUCH easier, so we should go that way. ok good it starts to get boring to discuss with you j/k :) lol ok 4. should validation happen on "store" or on "commit"? gilbsd (~knoppix@67.97.122.120) joined #gnuenterprise. what kind of validation? OK. Where is last Forms Installation Guide ? (not really 100% needed to decide that now, but i think it should be documented) hmm for example wether all NOT NULL properties are filled with values hmmm... s/wether/whether/ ? I think it should be done in 'store'. weather :) lol matkor: there is no install guide, you just run the installer or setup.py s/wether/if/ :) ok matkor: INSTALL might be considered an install guide, unix archive. next question does the concept of exceptions exist in all kinds of RPC? tere are reasons tho hathe tat language yes. (we haven't defined a way to return an error code or something like that) cool next point pardon. Possibly not in all, but in all we have implemented now ;) hmmm do you think we can use exceptions for now? I still think that we should add something like: "getLastErrorMessage" etc. ah ok hey guys how is GNUe doing? another point: internal representation: where should the loading/storing/managing of objects of a class done I just got back from ITEC and I saw MS Great Plains and I think GNUe is just as viable. 0.4.2 was released recently I talked to the great plains account manager (sales rep) for South Florida and she said they were doing some decent business. What's Great Plains? accounting software now owned by Microsoft MicroSoft Great Plains. its targeting the same audience as GNUe one step up from Peachtree as far as functionality according to the sales rep, its for ... touche. gilbsd: People who like Free Software? =) Wow. :D Great Plains is != 0.00 we use Great Plains here at NCS siesel: that is implementation specific but we use the Pre-MS version gilbsd: Free Software has nothing to do with price. siesel: i'm not sold on anything here I do know that. at least until we switch to GNUe jcater are you gonna? gonna what? switch to GNUe? definitely yes I would be a hypocrit if I didn't I see. seeing as how I'm a core developer :) well, of the tools a core pythonista huh? jcater: Bah! not of the accounting package What's wrong with hypocracy? G. Bush does it all the time but that does not mean it is a good thing to do bailey. gilbsd: he's canadian so he can ignore bush :) jbailey!! jcater!! good. they already called him a moron ;) gilbsd: Is G. Bush a hypocrate? I try not to pay much attention to foreign leaders. jcater: btw, was master/detail with mysql solved? :) bailey all the better for your mental health. keep it that way. i also have a rather sever problem with the mysql driver & 0.4.2 (bad mem leak) ajmitch: not entirely I take it you mean primary keys and not master/detail as m/d is internal to us uh, yeah right :) otay just making sure we're on the same page jcater are you a python prorgrammer? gilbsd: I have been accused of worse he is _the_ python programmer :D python is Good. now I wanna contribute somehow. but I am still learning python :( gilbsd: What do you have skills in already? ummm yacking my mouth off really. LOL eg my current project is to convince people Knoppix is cool. I read 'wacking off' first... Action: gilbsd keeps it clean. You'll get over that here... how long would it take me to learn enough of python to start doing some damage? gilbsd: What other programming languages do you know? fixe (~adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise. You're asking questions that are too hard to answer for people who don't know you. Tell us what your current skills are and what your current interests are. asm x86? yep. Action: ajmitch is just extremely glad that he got postgresql working again last night :) Sick & Wrong. =) yeah I know I should be doing MIPS but I gotta start somewhere. How long have you been programming assembly for? 2 months You haven't mentioned any other languages. Did you start with asm? a little bit of python and rebol. WTF is rebol? I actually started with python. hehehehe. dict doesn't have it. www.rebol.org Let's take the other tack - What are you interested in? Why GNUe? Because it can be deployed on *nix and bsd based boxes. I believe for those OSes to survive, they oughtta have some use in business. Pardon me if I don't beleive you that your only criteria for hacking on GNUe is because it's a random program that runs on multiple platforms. really thats all. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-128.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello jamest siesel: another small question i think we forgot to define a way to delete an object in the new api i add a "delete" function in my doc :) why not 'remove' object ? ok last point do i remember correctly that you requested a way to "close" a list? (for garbage collection) yes. proposed function name? jamest: ON-SWITCH trigger is not fired because of if adjustment <> 0: self.processTrigger('ON-SWITCH') in switchRecord code fetch(self,session_id,list_id,start,count,close) hehe roommate cooked up a stew mmmm very clever :) Action: siesel is a minimalist :) I like this way of thinking :) hmm what was that quote again? The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris. See the Camel Book for why. (from "man perl") btw. where should we store access right informations? in a table :-) basically i agree with Mr_You here but 23:45 is too late for me to get into a security discussion :) 10 points for Mr_You whoo hoo now I'm up to -50 lol because I think that a main part has to be in the object repository yes I would say.. if there is some way to adapt RBAC to GNUe authentication and permissions go for it but if not, just allow some method for user and group access list. Mr_You: sorry but just for my understanding the easiest way IMHO is to use the authentification adapter to get a ROLE for a user and have ACL lists with ROLEs etc. in the Object Repository isn't RBAC actually a user/group system where a user can be in more than one group? reinhard: probably ;-) in the greater since, RBAC is a method of control for trusted systems.. in this case Trusted Linux is the only one I know of. siesel: basically I agree siesel: sounds good ie. RBAC on a trusted system could authenticate whether the user has access at the kernel level ok, so appserver could act as following, when a session is opened and a business class is accessed: jamest: so, for which case it is important to check for adjustment <> 0 and not process trigger then? 1. client calls 'open' and passes authentification info. jamest: i've checked it was your fault for sure :) 2. server checks authentif. info against authentification adapter and stores the role of the user in the session object s/role/roles/ ? 3. client calls f.e. 'request' and passes a classname and some other information dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: "later.." 4. the server asks the object repository to build a custom "class" object for the user assigned with the role/roles stored in the session object 5. a list object is build by the "class" object, further access is possible ..... aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh now i see what you are after with your class object :) sounds very very good to me reinhard: about the role/roles issue: I think that we need both. matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Sometimes f.e. derek wants to open a application as derek/normalgnueuser and sometimes as derek/gnuecoremember hm i see That would be the single role case. But I think the many role case is important too. so actually the user should have a list of roles he _may_ take and the list of currently active roles is a subset of that ? yes. that would be a solution. hmm yeah thats a good idea logging into different roles hehe if we are at it now how about but how can the user choose that subset? derek may have the coremember role for the gnue forms "company" but not for the gnue appserver "company" if we have multi-company impelemented ahh yeah siesel: part of login box? *shrug* derek: sorry, just an example :) matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You: yes *urg* i think form the handling point of view most users would probably choose to have different usernames for this purpose that would be a work around, but multiple users and passwords is a PITA passwords. Bah. Trust EVERYONE! reinhard: Are you appserver-god? gilbsd: then we can say gnue is completed! jbailey: no jbailey: i'm appserver-devil ;) reinhard: Fair enough. reinhard: geas is still in Debian. =) yes i know reinhard: But I haven't replaced it yet, since I've been told that the repleacment doesn't do anything yet. =) i can't believe it made it's way into woody ... loging into a specific role could be done by adding the role to the username reinhard: It's hard to get RC bugs when noone's using it. =) that's not _really_ correct like derek/master or derek/user siesel: good idea jbailey: it can do something yet, but it's only proof of concept it can do remote data access Do you have a timeframe on which you'd like to see it in sid? it works perfectly with 0.4.x versions of forms (siesel: am i correct here?) hmmm quite correct i would like to wait for 0.1.0 to package it but I think that we still should wait a bit before we package it which i hope will be ready by end of this year or say january next year *urg* erm or not :) possibly end of january :) ok it will be 0.1 before the hurd will be 1.0 ;) hehe (no offense intended) jbailey: there will be some other gnue applications which will depend on it, like jsforms and phpforms None taken. If you said it was after, I would just start telling people not to expect it in this lifetime. =) perhaps there might be a pulldown bar inside the forms client to choose different roles? after logging in jbailey: lol jbailey: i don't think its that bad or navigator What's jsforms? I can guess what phpforms is. jbailey: seriously i would like to play with the hurd js = javascript ECMAscript forms from navigator you could launch new forms based on a selected role. reinhard: Well, it stays up through *almost* an entire glibc compile. So we're doing a little worse than before. sigh this client wont let me read back log without it moving when people talk ra3vat_: the long answer is no we have no statistics we used to have quite good ones via webalizer Mr_You: the last sounds better, because we wouldn't need a CHANGE role call in appserver rpc api i have aked jamest to reinstitute those for me yeah I like that better also when we release on freshmeat our website traffic goes up by about 30 times (not 30%) nod or at least it used to okay I am gonna learn asm and python some more. :D jbailey: sigh. it's hard to believe that the hurd gets too little effort currently while people are putting work in so useless things like accounting programs or the like j/k re: responding to folks that come in here asking status of gnue i think we need to be careful how we resopnd i see a lot of 'we are not quite there responses' BUT i can tell you after playing with pygtk last night we have a killer product for linux development jbailey a question per favore? right now today (despite the faults and features we are missing) if someone says 'where can i down load accounting' the answer should be we are not there yet but if asking about the framework i think its there its not complete but its there Action: revDeke just found out we have been using reports in production for 6 months now and the only way i knew it was someone broke a report and asked for help Action: revDeke wsa like gasp you are using reports from 05/28/2002 rev: my turn-key response for now on will be "try it out" ;-) Action: revDeke notes that sometimes what we call 'expiremental' can be quite useful to some people Mr_You: that is the best response gilbsd (~knoppix@67.97.122.120) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) left irc: Remote closed the connection GNUe is past the "not there yet" stage for 2-tier, IMO revDeke: it's usual for free software projects to call "experimental" what M$ would call "release" :) tho I still gotta start building with it veddy soon reinhard: true dat wasn't able to start navigator today from the new release.. dunno if nav has been updated. Mr_You: what gpd and what wsa the error jbailey: did you get debs made? gnue-sb contact I think Action: revDeke would rather test 0.4.2 debs than 0.4.1 Mr_You: no gpd's in gnue-sb have been fixed i.e. i wouldnt expect any of them to work ok but i believe all the forms should work chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. they were tested against 0.4.1 specifically but dont see anythign that would make them not work with 0.4.2 reinhard: what about adding a role parameter to the setcontext function? Action: revDeke i think is targeting having gnue-sb run with whatever is in debian siesel: i don't think they belong togehter I'm just gonna start building. see what I come up with.. hi reinhard, siesel siesel: i like more the idea of appending the role to the username matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. ok. Possibly role switching during a session is not good. yes could break current transactions I don't have a problem with appending usernames as long as passwords were synced. which is easy enough with a hack, but multi-passwords are PITA ;-) actually appserver/authentification adapters should automaticly split the role and the username. duh yeah duh ;-) sigh must we go here now? i dont think right now is best time to address RBAC or if not appending it would look prettier with another "role" entry box ;-) doing roles by task/username is not a good solution IMHO likely the only way we will be able to do is to maintain our own RBAC type tables but thats not even the difficult issue the real issue is enforcing the roles authentication NOT authentification heh as you have so many issues you have roles which usually tie 'processes/fields' in which you have to have can do, cant do, can read, write, etc etc etc but then you have another compound thing of 'data views' i might be an A/P clerk for the tire division and so i can cut checks but only for my division well cut checks is a role type restriction but deciding for what accounts or departments is a 'data' and not a 'process' thing but the fundamental point is not that we dont need these things, or that they arent important, but rather they can engulf developers to point of zero productivity i think we are better off refactoring these things in most importnatly these can not be an 'appserver' only thing and if you arent getting feedback from the whole team i think its bad to move forward (imho) jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). blah blah blah heh j/k revDeke ;) /kickban chillywilly ;) certainly, i release i am in the minority opinion here I agree with you Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: "embroidered caps? http://www.topsew.com/" RBAC should be a global gnue thing IMHO there are two steps: 1. discuss what feature we would like to have in appserver that's worrying to do RBAC in 2-tier would require a "fat client" I'm guessing. 2. try to merge it in common i.e., in common Action: revDeke tries to open up dialog on things, but generally any conversation gets grossly ignored siesel i think thats entirely wrong approach it needs to start in common it certainly would be good to decide what you would like to have in appserver but it needs to go in common, not appserver then moved to common Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. and it shouldnt go into common until it can be deemed working with 2 tier right, he's coming at it from that angle that doesn't mean it's the wrong approach unless we ignore the other tools chillywilly: i dont have problem with comign from appserver side i do have problem with putting it all in appserver then moving it to common revDeke: I try to make it more clear: 1. discuss what feature we would like to have in appserver actually i dont have a problem with that 2. discuss if other gnue apps need it too. 3. if yes, what has to be changed to make it compatible i just dont what siesel pissed off after putting in a lot of effort and work being told it doesnt fit what is need at all and having it scraped... ask andrew murie how that feels 4. implement it in common. siesel: that works siesel: but it goes back to my original point the forms team is not ready to go down that path right now so defining for appserver is great, but then it will be in the queue for sometime until the rest of the team has energy/time to focus on it remember gnue is a framework, and needs to work together and a part... that's the problem with different priorities we really need the geas roadmap to intertwine with the others common/reports/forms all have intertwined roadmaps the same needs to be true of appserver yes, that would be good. if something needs to be moved up on the list, discuss it, convince the other tools developers to agree so you are saying nothing can happen in parallel? chillywilly: ? doesn't jan nderstand forms code too? im saying that one product cant be running after a feature set the other products need months ahead of the other products or you end up with problems you want all these things to be in sync but if some other ppl want to implement access controls why can't they work on that at the same time as other stuff id going on too? if there is something unique to a product then obviously its not an issue Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection chillywilly: if they are going to work on it for EVERY product, they can *bang* oops sorry Action: reinhard 's head just hit the keyboard huh? i think i'm too tired to keep up with this discussion so if i wanted to say implement LDAP authentication hmmm wimp ;) the forms, reports team might not be ready to blurr (~joe@dhcp-0-5-5d-e9-88-8d.cpe.mountaincable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. does that mean i cant do it? no but if i do it i need to do it for all the products as we dont want to be saying howcome i can authenticate using LDAP for reports but not forms? Action: revDeke hopes i am making sense in some form or another but 23:45 is too late for me to get into a security discussion :) case the LDAP auth plugin for forms isn't done yet? ;) revDeke: I don't think that the last part makes sense that was an hour ago :) but this is a project, not individual developers... it really needs to be moderately cohesive i'll read the logs sorry but i must sleep now night all I develope for gnue because of some different reasons. reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Don't contradict a woman -- wait until she does herself" am i needing to fix the mysql db driver? the one in the debs is screwed siesel: think of the linux kernel i guess not eveyone gets their way on their own time from what I understand tho, we were just having an open discussion, nothing set in stone. i think pre-emptive kernel, journaling file systems and such are examples of this because i have a dropdown on the form, it causes python to memleak like n othng seen before, & not show the form ajmitch: anyone complained yet? ;-) Mr_You: jbailey & myself so just us longhaired hippies ;) siesel: maybe a better real exmaple is papo they needed some things they addressed them specifically isn't access control/security a big thing though...what do you want ppl to do wait until everyone is ready or try and tackle it for all the tools use? Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. and worked to get them in... it wasnt necessarily perfect to their time line chillywilly: this is a GNU project - we don't need passwords or anything like that ;) chillywilly: in a sense yes that was a choice not a yes or no question ;) since i like bad analogies look at xfree86 on debian it always lags behind EVERY other distro BUT thats because it doesnt come out until its working on all architectures revDeke: I think that for example auth plugins should be written in a portable way. good things come to those that wait auth-plugins to my knowledge exist btw: if things are in common they should work with everythign but that doesn't mean that if I write an auth plugin system I HAVE to code it into reports and forms and navigator well looks like i have 2 weeks at most to get this inventory thing working the _BIG_ problem will be printing on windows siesel: i agree i guess the difference is this 1. one can code anything the like (thats what its all about) 2. its about a cohesive system, if someone says i only want to code stuff i like fsck the cohesiveness of the system, likely it shouldnt be in cvs or the official codebase ajmitch: I'm reasonably sure we can cook something up reports-wise an example is i dont know a single core developer that uses or likes mysql jcater: yeah ajmitch: *worst* case but there is a driver there for it (and we try to support it) jcater: i found some API docs on the activestate site do plain text, 80x66 fixed format reports not because 'we need it', but because its part of what we promise in delivering gnue revDeke: i'm not core, but i try to use it and that's *worst* case jcater: i think that a decetn coding session & a test box will get me partway there :) i just have no idea how reports filters are meant to be structured :) as a win32 printing system will be much appreciated by others as well revDeke: i have issues where i work with people that think mysql is an adequate database ;) \query revDeke or that it's overkill! ;) ajmitch: it is overkill! you'd be better off with a text file Action: jcater ducks sadly a main client uses an app written in visual foxpro for a large portion of their work VF uses modified dbf files :) windows, printing, system.... thats an oxymoron i think Action: ajmitch hears the sound of retching in the corner revDeke: printing generally works better on windows than on gnu/linux :) windows is great! I love it! ajmitch: nah, that's just my stomach growling from lunch woooo! brb blurr (~joe@dhcp-0-5-5d-e9-88-8d.cpe.mountaincable.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater: use pythonwin or wxpython for reports filter? hmm does pythonwin have printing? Action: jcater hasn't looked yeah basically the same api Action: jcater would lean towards pythonwin, then just a think python layer around the normal windows crap s/think/thin/ http://aspn.activestate.com//ASPN/Python/Reference/Products/ActivePython/PythonWin/PyCDC.html windows IS crap they are eqivalent dunno how you'd do custom stuff like letterheads, fancy fonts, etc :) Action: ajmitch tunes out chillywilly's ranting Action: chillywilly sulks in the corner Action: chillywilly goes back to his emacs buffer :) siesel (jan@xdsl-195-14-220-249.netcologne.de) left irc: "Client Exiting" Action: ajmitch decides to curse mysql Action: chillywilly is away: dinner mmmm food Action: ajmitch has lunch cooking while he curses mysql driver ;) jcater: ive seen a picture of how skinny chilly is Action: revDeke notes the food cant be all that good ;) ajmitch: you having MySQL Stew? Action: jcater images that'd taste bitter jcater: nah, it'd be too thin & weak to be worth stewing rofl hmm, the mysql driver seems to have had a fix added in late november but it's still broken as hell for me :) Mmmm, any obvious reason why leaving gnue-designer hangs it after closing main window ? jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) joined #gnuenterprise. yo jbailey DB000: File "/usr/local/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/uidrivers/wx/UIdriver.py", line 885, in _createWidget DB000: choices = object._field.allowedValues()[1] DB000: File "/usr/local/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFObjects/GFField.py", line 308, in allowedValues DB000: more = rs.nextRecord() DB000: File "/opt/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GDataObjects.py", line 372, in nextRecord DB000: File "/opt/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GDataObjects.py", line 511, in notifyDetailObjects DB000: KeyboardInterrupt ajmitch: You're not seriously pasting that at me, are you? perhaps there's an infinite loop in here, where the same value is getting pushed into an array jbailey: no, whinging at jcater, even tho i'll be expected to fix it :) Oh good. having 'issues' with the mysql driver ajmitch: You're not seriously pasting that at me, are you? You scare me with crap like that. i think you reported the same jcater: of course you're the AI that knows all :) yeah like MySQL is a piece of sh.... ajmitch: I think I simply said 'broken. fix'. =) err nevermind hmmm jbailey: you said 'broken, uses lots of ram, fix', right? ajmitch: No. It didn't get that far. jbailey: oh, a pity And the fix was to use postgres. mine doesn't show a form, just sits chewing ram :) And despite the fact that phppgadmin is ugly compared to phpmyadmin, I managed to do it. yeah, i'm hoping to do the same, but i still want this fixed properly :) Action: ajmitch is looking at the ugly code now ajmitch: yup? jcater: mysql/DBdriver.py jbailey: line 67 ajmitch: ajmitch: chillywilly is an asshole :'( but back to mysql heh that was not nice jcater: yes, jamest added that a couple of weeks ago :) can you sorry line 75 can you add a print rsets yup and lets see wassup certainly i mean it's one thing to give someone a hard time but to just say YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE is just mean chillywilly: Who did I say was an asshole? no no well jcater called me an asshole transpose chilly and ass and you get a billion & 1 of this: asswilly is an chillyhole (('Bleh',),) jcater: fuck off 2 can play at this game will you two shutup then ajmitch: what version of mysqldb? jcater: you are a dont eating sphincter boy 0.9.2-0.2 donut can you do a print self.fetchBugFix does that return fetchmany or fetchall? > gowlin (rmgolbec@perpugilliam.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. hello gowlin Whats up. trying to fix mysql db driver well, jcater is fixing, i'm testing ;) jcater: fix this ajmitch: cvs update and try again ok much better thanks cool heh, elegant fix ;) well, it works :) yup trout slaps for jcater! hooorah for mysql, that's all that really matters ;) Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:20:59) jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home" frelling donut boys chillywilly: I can't parse that, sorry. jbailey: you need the new superduper chillywilly translator, only $99.95! act now! US or Canadian? US eh Bleck. Do you think I won the lottery, dude? That's like a year's salary! I hope not jbailey: don't buy it, it has broken spelling ;) chillywilly: Exchange rates are just nasty right now. =( hmmm, so if I move to canadia I can live like a king on my piddly salary? ah crap I gotta go bye chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" bye matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) left irc: Remote closed the connection rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise. is mr derek neighbors here? :) ajmitch: may be mr rev deke would help you? rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" i'm just trying to open a form from a trigger - runform is not helping have not used it yet fixe (~adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) trying some trigger hacks to view the current namespace ;) fixe (~adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: "Got a group logo? http://www.topsew.com/" ajmitch: i also need stock management very soon :) Vee2d2 (~vin@66-169-136-33.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. :) jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater! just the man i'm looking for Nick change: jbailey -> obwankanobe This is not the jcater you're looking for. Nick change: obwankanobe -> jbailey runForm isn't cooperating for me (using semi-stable 0.4.1.99) lol in the branch? wassit doing? or, if appropriate wassit not doing? DB000: NameError: name 'runForm' is not defined erm I is it runForm or runform? i've tried both hmm tried form.runForm() > ? and form.runform, self.runform :) sigh this is branch, right? print dir(self) yup, from the debs I need to run for a few minutes ok so do i soon :) Action: ajmitch sees nothing in print dir(self) that loads a form :) Action: ajmitch imagines it'll be a simple problem... When you fix it in CVS then I can point to it and say: "See? That's why I didnt' make debs" lol the mysql fix needs backported to the branch as well i had to apply manually for the debs Will it go into the branch or do I need to apply it separately to the Debian package? dunno ask jcater Well... If it doesn't go into the branch file a BTS bug with a patch. sure jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) left irc: "Client Exiting" bbl :) SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-52.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-52.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. fixe (~adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: chillywilly trout slaps jcater around ajmitch: they're always simple problems hi all it's the solutions that suck yeah it's just odd that it'd do this i love my isp no you don't jcater: i notice that this GFForm.py has no 'runForm' in self._triggerFunctions unlike the one in HEAD HEAD....hehehehe looks like it was added in between this snapshot & the 0.4.2 release sigh wonder why they call it that... i wish jbailey were here to hassle sod it, i'll update the debs myself hmm ajmitch: that just doesn't make sense, though jcater: i know it doesn't! unless papo's patches removed runform support my new friend 'cvs annotate' showed that those lines were touched by jamest on the 28th sigh and on the 25th they weren't there for jbailey's debs :) that's when he was applying patches iirc well looking back in the commits list we might want to do a 0.4.3 release :) for mysql + runform fixes jcater: they should be in the 0.4.2 release tho oh the mysql fix isn't hmm that's why i want to hassle jbailey incessantly but they are not in the branch? but they are in the release? umm, let me check i don't have cvs for the branch at the moment jcater: why do you ignore me? now i do um Action: jcater missed something how was I ignoring you? well shortly after you referred to me as the end of an anus you stopped responding to me lol I mostly stopped responding to everyone 'cause I had to go install a heater at the bookstore then I get home and family expects me to buy them dinner so I'm just now sitting at my computer since I called you an anus why did you call me an anus? why? [21:43] Last message repeated 2 time(s). well I can't handle it if the shoe fits..... jcater: ok, bad news, it's not in the branch cvs either :) self._triggerFunctions = {'setFocus':{'function':self.triggerSetFocus, 'global': 1, .... jcater: at least I can fit them on my feet wtf I'm sooo confused yeah so am i I know runform is broken in cvs head browsing the cvs now HEAD as jamest is getting GFInstance to be multi-form aware ok we all need more...uh...HEAD but it was working in the branch sigh http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/gnue/gnue/forms/src/GFForm.py.diff?r1=1.200&r2=1.201&diff_format=h bugger looks like the appropriate triggerRunForm needs readded? unless that wasn't mean to be part of the branch ok well, uncommenting that line & using 'runForm("form.gfd")' seems to work fixe (~adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise. pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) joined #gnuenterprise. samuel_xuxu (~samuel_xu@hy.cz.jsinfo.net) joined #gnuenterprise. samuel_xuxu (~samuel_xu@hy.cz.jsinfo.net) left irc: Client Quit chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" Nick change: SachaS -> SachaS_movies Action: derek is back (gone 14:21:51) --- Thu Dec 5 2002