chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" night derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" M4rc0 (~user@cr21672574.cable.net.co) joined #gnuenterprise. M4rc0 (~user@cr21672574.cable.net.co) left irc: "Aplicación Saliendo" matkor (~matkor@pa58.gliwice.sdi.tpnet.pl) left irc: Remote closed the connection reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-244.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) Nick change: reinhard_ -> reinhard ptrapp (ptrapp@D5E0E4B9.kabel.telenet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello. Could anybody tell me if there is a need for more coders for the gnue project, how to get involved, which packages have the highest priority etc? hello ptrapp hello ra3vat is this the correct way to contact the developement team of gnue yes it is you might want to look at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/community/involve.php priorities depend on the developer thanks, I did so. That's how I got here everybody tries to push the parts forward he is interested in most So nobody is really assigned to an idividual part. People just start coding and publish the modifications they have done? well there are some kinds of "subproject leaders" like if you want to do some coding in GNUe Forms you should talk to James Thompson (jamest) development in reports is mainly done by jcater if you are interested in appserver you should coordinate with siesel and/or me but this is not to "get assigned to a job" but rather to avoid duplicate work yes, i see i'm not sure if you know the principle of "only buying eggs from happy chicken" "we only take code from happy programmers" ;-) euh...I think I get the picture ;-) Why has been chosen for Python python is easy to learn and conding in python is uncomparable more productive than C other's people's python code is easy to read unlike, say perl or c++?+ or c# or d(b) java? or lisp ;-) or shell cripts eh scripts java - well, similar issues to the others (you know there is an accounting programm named "banal" written in bash script?) plus a freedom issue in that Sun owns Java's butt ;-) reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) reinhard (~reinhard@M695P028.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. We are probably one of the less "idealogical" GNU projects but still stick to the principle of not forcing people to use any non-free stuff and finding free Java Virtual Machines is not always easy Technically, they can't be Java, as they haven't been certified by Sun which costs $$$ Interesting point of view. In practice, we've found that python actually gives us *more* platform independance than java as python seems to run the same on everything java just *claims* to run the same on everything ;-) If it is platform independent, why are there then two sources? there are two sources? of what? well, it's actually the same source - just compressed with either .tar.gz or .zip ah If you were twisted enough, you could install tar & gz on Win32 & use it that way Actually, many years ago when I was too mean to pay for PKZIP as was I used to use DOS gzip on Win 3.1 ;-) ok. that cleared things out How's developing a gui in python. What does it ressembles we have several approaches Our "quick and dirty" solution was to use the wx toolkit with wxpython, the wrapper that lets this C+ library be used with python. This gave us GNU/Linux, Win 32, Mac OS etc GUIs all at once However, but it isn't used anymore? the wx toolkit is a bit flakey sometimes so alongside the wx strategy we are currently developing "native" UIs The GTK2 one is there already (but still buggy) Next on the list is Win32 native API, which should be... interesting If only becuase most of the core developers would sooner have their fingernails scraped than run Win32 voluntarily ;-) We would still always maintain the wx version as the "reference" version but GNUe is all about choice ;-) If i'm not mistaking, there's also a GTK for win. So the GTK version could be considered as platform independend I heard that too. I actually used it once Someone (jbailey?) had a need for a Win32 GUI & that was suggested as a possibility. But that was a long tim ago (3 years or so, and gtk win was very unstable) Quicker than writing a native Win32 API version anyway. yes indeed wxpython on Win32 is not actually that bad, anyway I'm definitely going to check it out Just things like updating drop-down lists doens't work etc The sort of thinhg hackers would either not notice or ignore but normal end-users would just get confused over ;-) What references do you advice for learning python (I know Java, Pascal (Delphi), (Visual) Basic, PHP and a bit C++)? You pretty much know it if you know all those anyway ;-) The www.python.org site has some good books for download I've heard people praise Dive Into Python, but not read it myself You can also learn a lot of python simply by reading our source code ;-) What I like about python (from my very lmited exposure) is the ability to write things in 1 line that would take 10-20 in C or perl without ever becoming obfuscated (sp.?) sp.? ? spelling mistake (probably) - too lazy to look it up ;-) If you know Delphi, you'll probably like GNUe Designer ok. Never mind, I'm not a native English speaker Our reformed Delphi user keeps telling us how Delphi-like it looks ;-) Gnue designer, what does is actually do? It designs things ;-) At the moment, it is mainly a Forms designer but there is already some functionality for Reports designer as well and we will certainly add schema designer and probably application server (object) designer as well reinhard is our main man on appserver, so may know more than me on that So, you created gnu designer to develop the forms that are to be used in gnue? Jeet (cool@modem-248.elk.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hello OK, I just figured it out from the FAQ what is the meaning od this room please? ? hello! ptrapp: yes. A form definition is just an XML file, but it's easier to do with Designer than emacs hi Jeet hello what is the meaning od this room please? what do u chat about? This is the channel for GNU Enterprise, huh? jeet: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/ but we chat about just about anything ;-) oh lol do u have ur own room? trout, goats, etc. k we used to have our own irc server, but moved to freenode about 2? years ago r u allowed to make a room were say u use the name is gnucleus but add a number? or something ? can u ansewar my q? Jeet: not sure what you are asking u You can set up new channels just yes.. by /join command I think so /join foobar1 will create the channel if it doesn't exisit already with you as the channel operator ;-) yes u can but can i do the name Gnucleus but put something elese there on the end so i will not get done? Jeet: I don;t know. Does the documentation on the website www.freenode.net help? no oh well thanks bye cya np ;-) Jeet (cool@modem-248.elk.dialup.pol.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. I read in the FAQ about the files required for Linux, like make eg. Is it necessary for win that you have cygwin installed No Our FAQ is shamefully out of date Action: psu as webmaster bears most of the shame :-) Python is available for Win32 as native version Our dependancies have shrunk a lot over past year mainly because python add-ins we needed Yes, i saw. Just downloaded it have now become part of standard python ;-) If you want to develop, I would recommend d/l the source Thanks, i just did If you just want to try out some demo forms on Win 32, the setup.exes are easier ok, i'll try them Actually, I believe the usual advice in this channel is not to develop on Win32 at all but then we have a sizable Debian fan club in the core developers ;-) s/at all/at all, for anything, whether GNUe-related or not ;-) How's the data stored? Via appserver? It depends or an sqlserver or both? In 2-tier mode, the Forms client talks direct to d/b, using GNUe Common In n-tier, the Forms client talks to AppServer which talks to d/b, using GNUe Common That's why it's called GNUe Common ;-) At the moment, the appserver is still at early stage of development so all real-world GNUe users as of time of writing use 2-toer s/toer/tier Having said that, GNUe Forms is a better "fat client" than most as you can use trigger libraries and store Forms definitions on the web Does the user has to have installed a dbserver himself, like mysql so the old, old pain of client-server (keeping form definitions up to date) is gone ptrapp: for all non-trivial use, yes You can have a form that doesn't need a d/b (e.g. "Hello World") but most forms need one. You can use any d/b that we have drivers for which usually means anything python has drivers for SAP-DB, postgresql, mySQL, firebird or non-free ones like Oracle, DB2, interbase That certainly will do Plus there are some flat-file "database" drivers being planned Is gnue (going to become) a worthy alternative to SAP? so you can use a CSV file as a database ;-) ptrapp: that's certainly the plan. We need the tools written first (which we have largely done) That's a huge ambition! I admire it a lot and then can focus on the packages How many people are working on gnue? The thing is, it's one of those ambitions that, even if you fail, you still have useful stuff. If the project folded tomorrow, we would still have a good solid set of tools (Forms, Reports, Designer) etc that people could use to develop their own stuff. Of course, we aim to take things onwards and upwards from there ptrapp: we have about 6 people working on it a lot jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) joined #gnuenterprise. and probably several times more who hang around and help where they can like doing debian packaging for us, etc. Several hundred following the project on the mailing lists psu: Poking derek with sticks. For those 6 people, is it a full-time occupation psu: We do debian packaging so that we're allowed to do so. ptrapp: well, some of them do GNUe as part of their paid job but not full time as such ;-) Oh, and I forgot project papo - an Argentian team who started using the tools and ended up being our best source of useful patches in a long time. Like they are people doing research for their phd? Hey, it's the free software way, yes? ptrapp: not that i'm aware of. Mainly real-world IT/business professionals who have a need for something like GNUe Tools and can contribute Action: psu is going to have to run off & fetch wife soon psu: Any wife in particular, or yours? she's been out Christmas shopping whilst I've been hacking jbailey: I find you tend to get into less trouble w/own wife, don't you? psu: Ah, what're you hacking on this week? psu: Dunno. I've never tried, er.. "getting into trouble" with another persons wife. =) Just getting the arrangements set up for group-authoring GNUe Kernel Cousins Ah nice! Who will be helping you? jbailey: me nieither, but instict says it's not a wise move... psu: Sounds good. jbailey: arturas to start with, hope to entice a few more Excellent! Action: psu is away: fetch.wife(own) Are you shifting into other sorts of GNUe hacking, or reducing time commitment for sanity? ah, missed him - oh well. jbailey: may i ask, what's your contribution to gnue? ptrapp: I serve a number of roles: 1) Debian Packaging. 2) Volunteer Recruiter. 3) End User. 4) Occasional system administration. 5) It's likely I will do the win32 UI, and possibly the HTML ui. 6) General Verbal abuse. i see I started off as #4, quickly moved to #6, then #2, then #1, #3 started a couple weeks ago, and #5 might start on Monday is jamest gets me the info I need. =) End user, is that like being a tester? Sometimes it feels that way. It means that GNUe is deployed at my office and people are using it in production. really? Is it allready capable of doing so? We're still in the middle of the migration, though. It'll be another 2 weeks to finish I think. How long did it take? Which it, sorry? the migration Oh hmmm. Most of the work took about 3 days. But that 3 days was spent on line here while we navigated around some bugs. That's one of the challenges of Free Software, right? The software isn't perfect. Especially developping software. of any i believe The version number 0.4.1 is a good hint. indeed But in the land of propritary software, we wouldn't be given the option to try it. Further, if we did, it would be a limited disclosure beta, with probably little to no support. What kind of business is it used in (your office). How many users will use it The team here is small, they can't help everyone. (Esp if this gets popular). But what they *can* do very well is take a well reported bug and fix it. So now, noone will have the problems I had. And in a similar environment they will probably be able to do it in a day instead of 3, and possibly without help. I work in the financial industry, and there will be 5 of us using it initially, growing to probably 30 or 40. Mixed environment Windows and GNU/Linux. What database has been chosen? Postgresql You said you also do/did volunteer recruiting. Suppose I want to contrtibute to the project, as a coder. How should i start The first is to make an honest assessment of your coding skills. Alot of people want to contribute to Free Software projects and haven't evaluated what they can actually take on. The second is to figure out what you're interested in. Well. I'm graduating this year from University in Belgium, as a business engineer specialized in Business informatics Then do a cross-section between the two. In some cases you may find that doing actual new coding isn't the best way to start - It might be bug fixing, documentation, or evangelisation. ptrapp: GNUe is mostly written in Python. I'm currently in negotiation with Accenture about a futur job as IT consultant there Also, it's worth noting that a good chunk of GNUe is written in it's own language, like the forms scripting, etc. yes, psu told me that So with a degree in Bus. info. you might be best suited to the developpment of some of the higher ERP modules. For instance, you would have HR systems knowledge that might allow you to take on a module and develop it. But it's *critical* that you pick things in terms of your interest and skill. Otherwise it's too discouraging. MRP (material req planning, part of ERP) interests me a lot. Is there allready a package that does that? Is that what MRP stands for? I've always wondered. =) :-) I worked in a manufacturing plant, and noone knew what the initials were for. =) Have you been to the website? It's a good initial reference for the plans. or is it manufacturing resource planning (mrp<->mrpii, i always mix them up) Yes i did http://www.gnuenterprise.org/packages/packages.php describes a bunch of projects. Most of which haven't been started, and don't have a design yet. The first step is to work with Derek on developping the whitepaper about what should be available in a given module. Depending on how much time and experience you have, that could be quick or could be slow. =) But I'm thinking 6 months to produce something solid to work from. That way everyone's had a chance to review it, etc. MRP will also have tie ins with the accounting modules (For ISO-9000 serial number tracking, etc.) that's nice So a lot of that time will be working with the other groups to make sure that you're all working with the information in common formats, etc. so that information can be exchanged seemlessly. From what i understand, gnue doesn't use any form of xml, right? All of it's forms and reports are XML. ok So data dumps, etc aren't a problem. seems a logical chose Probably. I'm not involved with the design in any way. I'm definetely going to browse through the source code of each part Also keep in mind that a new major release is coming out near the end of the month. that's version 0.6? 0.5 0.4.2 is current. ok. The todo list 0.5.x contains everything that's left to do for this month then You saild you were going to participate in the ui developement for win32 Well, I know that 0.5 contains alot of core work, so some items might get shifted. The big focus is the internal re-org, rather than feature adds. I see Will the wx toolkit be used further, or will you move to something else I can't offer much on that. I want to see wx eradicated from the face of the earth. gtk2 will release at the end of this month. the console client will be as well. I'm hoping to get a win32 client out with that, and an html client for the release after this next one. So you'll use the gtkwin libraries i guess. That's not obvious to me yet. I don't think it woudl necessarily be the Right Thing to do. But it would save alot of time for now. indeed and how about the html client It would also suck less than wxPython, no matter what. The HTML client needs to have a different approach taken with it. php? Well, there's a php forms client, but I'm hoping to tackle it differently. like? The problem with phpforms is that you need to rewrite almost the entire engine. python -> php So instead I think the right thing is to create a separate entrance point into the code base that allows everything to happen as a single pass through the program. So credentialling, session establishment/recovery, database connection, validation of input, display of output and then whatever teardown is needed. I understand what you mean I would offer a great flexibilty But with a separate entrance point into the forms libraries then adjustments to code in one place will propagate to all the UI front ends. That's critical, because otherwise you need a complete development team doing the PHP front end. And you won't be able to guarantee internal bugs between the two. Also, if GNUe were to ever proceed to a certification step, it would be like certifying two different programs. Something complete different. I have a good knowledge of Delphi and Visual Basic. Next to that, I also know hwo to code in Java, and in a lesser degree in c++. Are there any great books that you could recommend for learning python? ajmitch recommended the online site www.diveintopython.org thanks, i'll look into that I'm leaving now. Thanks a lot for the info. I'm going to examine the current code thoroughly, and we will be in touch again ptrapp (ptrapp@D5E0E4B9.kabel.telenet.be) left #gnuenterprise. ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p508052FD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: psu is back (gone 02:13:29) dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. psu: Wife acquired? ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p508052FD.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: jbailey: yep. the right one, even ;-) i have been told I "got off lightly" which is usually a euphemism for ££GBP100-GBP150 psu: I hadn't realised you were in trouble. nope, just regular pre-Xmas shopping and since we both earn about the same, it's sorta her money anyhow dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: "later.." chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. *lol* you know lol backwards is still lol? ;) chillywilly: Looking for a tetrinet game? umm, no I should pay bills first at least...even code some Ah okay. Jyoty and I were using gandalf just a few minutes ago, I thin she's still there. ok chillywilly: *lol* is called a palindrome just in case you were wondering :0 yea I just like pointing out the obvious Action: chillywilly smacks reinhard around with a trout May a moody baby doom a yam uh? It's a palindrome. =) It's also fun to say.= ) oh cool Action: chillywilly was up to about 4:30am playing tetrinet rats live on no evil star (sounds like an Asimov or Heinlen novel) I got my second wind ;) *lol* chillywilly: we're not *at all* interested in your medical conditions, thnx. ;-) pls if we start playing then there goes all gnue development down the tubes as I doubt jcater would be able to resist ;) Development? Bah! tetrinet is like crack Just release 0.5.0 the way it is. =) psu: derek and chilly have me hooked on tetrinet so gnue may be doomed Do some Kernel Cousins summaries - the thinking man's alternative to development Free software is never doomed ;-) true Worse case scenario, someone starts a "Our coding AI's neural net imploded" fork just stalled Action: jcater can see it now hey, jcater, can you add feature xxxx.... I really need it for my current job sure.... if you beat me at tetrinet mwahaha lol Action: jbailey is away: Foo! damn women bouncing checks and shit psu: you here? uh yes another website error? ;-) not yet i just would beg you to make one ;-) can i send you api.* for posting on website, doc's section? heh (means appserver api) yes which addres would you like? address psu@gnuenterprise.org is fine This is to replace the 0.0.5 edition? Edition 0.0.5, 2002-10-24 yes it is Edition 0.0.6, 2002-12-08 btw, am I wasting my damn time writing a parser for godl and odl? chillywilly: I don't think anyone's against using ODL as our object descrip lang It's more a question of whether appserver needs to be object-orientated at all from day 1 well I tried to send an email