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<ajmitch> yo Arturas
<Arturas> Good morning :)
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<ajmitch> hi psu
<psu> hi
<chillywilly> peeee essssss yeeeeeew
<psu> da chillster!
<ajmitch> so
<ajmitch> i've got a mandate from work to get the gtk2 driver in usable state within a couple of days
<psu> cool
<ajmitch> sigh
<ajmitch> need talk jamest
<chillywilly> man open office keeps telling me it is already installed but it lies
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<psu> maybe they've taken the concept of emulating M$ Office too far
<psu> by including the unhelpful error msgs
<chillywilly> I run setup it creates the OpenOffice1.0 folder then tells me it is already installed because the folder exists
<chillywilly> wtf?
<psu> "GNU/Linux has detected that a gnat has farted within 10 feet of your computer"
<chillywilly> woooo
<psu> "Press any key to run /bin/bsod
<chillywilly> yippeeee
<reinhard> good morning all
<chillywilly> hi reinhard
<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<reinhard> psu: thanks for putting docs on website
<psu> np
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<psu> site will be in CVS by New Year's Day
<psu> by hook or crook
<chillywilly> suuuuure ;)
<psu> I have a cunning plan...
<chillywilly> psu: it only take about 10 seconds to import into cvs
<btami> good morning
<chillywilly> what's the hold up?
<chillywilly> you have to learn it?
<chillywilly> or is it more complicated than this?
<psu> yes, but it takes (so far) 3 months & counting to ask FSF whether they are willing to add php support to www.gnu.org or not
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> btw, who wrote the PHP?
<psu> "No" is a perfectly valid answer if that's what it is
<chillywilly> you?
<psu> yes
<psu> it's pretty mickey mouse stuff
<psu> mainly just include header/footer
<chillywilly> yea
<psu> with a few semi-intelligent
<chillywilly> plz don't say it si mickey ;)
<psu> file listing thingies for index pages
<chillywilly> he's scary ;)
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<chillywilly> to little kids he's a 6 foot rat ;)
<reinhard> chillywilly: lol
<chillywilly> damn OOo
Action: chillywilly kicks it
<psu> Plus, thanks to the Bono Copyright Act, he's still a *proprietary* 6 foot rat
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> stupid U$A
<psu> which, for well-brought up kids like Scotty, probably makes him even more friightening ;-)
<chillywilly> indeed :)
<chillywilly> OpenOffice setup program is on crack
<ajmitch> chillywilly: apt-get install openoffice.org
<SachaS> chillywilly: apt-get install openoffice.org :)
<chillywilly> thanks :)
<chillywilly> I didn't know they paclaged it
<chillywilly> coolness
<chillywilly> er packaged
<ajmitch> chillywilly: it's debian, of course they packaged it
<chillywilly> well it wasn't before
<chillywilly> and you know it ;)
<ajmitch> it was packages
<ajmitch> it just wasn't in sid before
<chillywilly> well this is pointless arging about it
<chillywilly> when something is "packaged" in my mind that means it is availbale in the archive
<chillywilly> heh, they compiled it with the old compiler
<chillywilly> now it is getting gcc 3.0.x
<chillywilly> heh, it bigger than even tetex-base
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<ra3vat> hello btami
<btami> hello ra3vat
<ra3vat> i would like to know what versions of prepequisities were used for binary build
<ra3vat> as source installation works better for me
<ra3vat> can we list it somewhere?
Action: psu must google for some free Christmas clip-art
<psu> I feel a need to decorate the web site for Christmas
<psu> Nothing too flashy, maybe just a little robin perched on the top toolbar ;-)
<chillywilly> hmmm
<psu> Or maybe some seasonal .gsd definitions
<chillywilly> ?
<psu> child_naughty_or_nice boolean not null ;
<chillywilly> seasonal schema files?
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> that is very geeky
<psu> letter_sent boolean not null ;
<psu> CRM = Claus Relationship Management
<chillywilly> hehe
<psu> MRP = Make Reindeers' Presents
<chillywilly> ERP = Elves Reindeer and Presents?
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: psu <- geeky & proud
<psu> GNUe - Give Naughty Underlings Everything
Action: chillywilly likes ERP better :)
<chillywilly> heh
Action: ajmitch hopes that geek.nz thing goes thru :)
<ajmitch> surprised that it made slashdot tho
<chillywilly> what's this?
Action: chillywilly doesn't read slushdot
<ajmitch> hah 
<ajmitch> right
<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> danielb@frodo:~/.openoffice/1.0.1$ ./soffice 
<chillywilly> sh: line 1: /usr/sbin/lpc: No such file or directory
<chillywilly> sh: line 1: lpc: command not found
<chillywilly> Aborted (core dumped)
<chillywilly> lovely
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<btami> ra3vat: i used python2.2.2, wxPython 2.3.3.1, pyPgSql 2.2, MySql-python 0.9.2, psycopg 1.0.8, sapdb 7.3.00.25, kinterbasdb 3.0.2
<ajmitch> haha
Action: psu is impressed that NZ has 12 2nd level domains
<psu> uk has IIRC just co.uk, gov.uk, ac.uk, org.uk 
<psu> not even a mil.uk
<btami> ra3vat: and egenix-mx-base 2.0.3
<chillywilly> what's ac for?
<chillywilly> ass critters?
<psu> ac.uk = academic
<chillywilly> anonymous cowards
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> should be edu.uk ;)
<psu> a.k.a. the Joint Academic Network (JANet & Super-JAnet)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> so ajmitch
<psu> When I started as a dial-up user, my ISP had no direct connection to Janet
<chillywilly> does OO segfault for you?
<psu> so all my e-mails to university friends had to be routed via USA
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> that's lame
<psu> Also, originally janet e-mail addresses were non-RFC compliant
<psu> as they were "little endian" rather than "big endian" 
<psu> so they had to send to psu@uk.co.demon.manorcon for it to work
<psu> This was in the days of steam-powered IP, you realise ;-)
<btami> ra3vat: what versions of prerequvisites you use with your source install ?
Action: psu still remembers having to learn about bang paths
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<ra3vat> btami: i can't say now, need to reinstall again
<ra3vat> btami: my ibm's hdd made in hungary died :)
<chillywilly> blah
<btami> :(
<chillywilly> crap I should go to bed
<chillywilly> night all
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<ra3vat> btami: thanks for the info, i will try to compare again
<btami> np
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<ariel__> reinhard: are you around?
<reinhard> yes
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<ariel__> did you get wath i wrote before?
<reinhard> no
<ariel__> ok i retype
<ariel__> in the api doc store still returns void not stringlist
<ariel__> geas.rpc is yet updated by Jan to return stringlist
<ariel__> there is a typo in datatypes/string: lenth
<ariel__> what policy has remove if one of the ids is missing?
<ariel__> like store (total fail + exception)
<ariel__> or just delete the ids that exist?
<ariel__> in the latter case remove may return the stringlist of the ids actually deleted
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> fixed the store function
<reinhard> fixed type
<reinhard> typo
<reinhard> i think we have to think about the policy for the delete function
<reinhard> i would like to know siesel's opinion
<reinhard> spontaneously i would say if any id is invalid the do nothing and throw exception
<reinhard> as it most probably indicates an error
<ariel__> agree
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i still would like to hear siesel on this as well
<reinhard> i'll update the doc then and will beg psu again to update the website
<reinhard> thanks for pointing this out
<reinhard> you have eagle eyes ;-)
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<jbailey> g'morning jcater.
<jcater> greetz
<jbailey> How do you folks plan on handling branching for 0.5?
<jbailey> Do you branch at feature complete and then do a bug hack down?
<jbailey> Or just branch with the releasE?
<jcater> with the release
<jbailey> Ah well.
<jbailey> I was hoping to track a release branch with the Debian packages when you were fairly certain that the gfd format was stable.
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> jamest is conspicuously missing this monday morning
<jcater> oh bother
Action: jbailey stretches.
Action: jbailey pulls out the drums.
Action: jbailey begins the jamest dance.
<jbailey> It's sort of like the rain dance, but different.
<jcater> this one involves dancing around goats, eh?
<jcater> derek: I have the perfect spam for you
<jcater> it's entitled "East pizza and lose weight"
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<jbailey> Se?
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<jbailey> 10 minutes, but it worked.
<jbailey> Takes a little while for the signal to travel.
<jcater> lol
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<jbailey> Never doubt the magic of jbailey.
<jbailey> (All this native heritage and nothing else useful to do with it)
<jcater> jbailey: you'll be happy to know someone's working on xinerama support in wxgtk
<jbailey> Lovely.
<jcater> a thread opened up this weekend on the mailing list
<jbailey> I'm happier to know that that ajmitch is working on gtk2. =)
<jbailey> He's also looking at using gtk2 on win32.
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> does gtk2 work natively on windows these days?
<jbailey> Yes.
<jcater> or is it a cygwin hack?
<jbailey> Hmm.  What's the difference in the end?
<jbailey> cygwin binaries run natively on win32 as long as they have cygwin1.dll in the path.
<jbailey> No worse than Visual Basic binaries.
<jbailey> (Noting that I don't consider Visual Basic binaries to be the 'ideal' of binaries..  It's just that it's accepted practice to have a helper library)
<jcater> isn't there a "debian" way to do a custom kernel or something?
<jcater> one that keeps all the default settings and works with modconf?
<jcater> or am I on crack?
Action: jbailey looks up what modconf is.
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jcater> well, modconf or not
<jbailey> make-kpkg is supposed to take predone config files and generate custom kernels.
<jcater> ok
<jbailey> I've never had any need to use anything other than the stock one, though.  They do a good job on those.
<jcater> I think that's what I'm thinking of
<jcater> well
<jcater> I need to test 2.4.20 on a machine
<jcater> and see if it barfs
<jcater> but it's a woody machine
Action: jcater isn't ready to upgrade that machine to glibc 2.3.x
<jbailey> The kernel doesn't need glibc-2.3 though...
<jcater> hrm
<jcater> thumper:~# apt-get install kernel-image-2.4.20-k7
<jbailey> Use the initrd-tools from sarge.  It's not 2.3 dependent.
<jcater> Reading Package Lists... Done
<jcater> Building Dependency Tree... Done
<jcater> The following extra packages will be installed:
<jcater>   initrd-tools libc6 libc6-dev locales modutils
<jcater> The following NEW packages will be installed:
<jcater>   kernel-image-2.4.20-k7
<jcater> 5 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 268  not upgraded.
<jbailey> oh hmm.
<jcater> Need to get 19.3MB of archives. After unpacking 27.0MB will be used.
<jcater> Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
<jbailey> it might be the modutils.
<jcater> oh, is 2.4.20 in sarge?
<jbailey> Yeah, it's the modutils.
<jbailey> No, 2.4.20 is still in unstable.
<jbailey> The modutils and initrd from sarge will satisfy the kernel-image dependencies for 2.4.20 in sid, though.
<jbailey> I would not recommend sid's glibc on a production system until at least after the next upload.
<jcater> ah
<jcater> ok
<jbailey> I just got an email saying that someone is going to look at a problem that I can't reproduce with glibc, so sarge may be useful soon, too.
<jcater> ah
<jcater> is sarge's glibc screwed?
<jbailey> No.
<jbailey> sid's is though.
<jbailey> sarge's should be pretty close to woody's.
<jbailey> And it's only slightly screwed.  regex problems and various arch problems should be fixed with the next upload.
<jbailey> A spurious segfault with apache, php and imap will not be.
<jcater> <jbailey> sarge's should be pretty close to woody's.
<jcater> <jbailey> And it's only slightly screwed.  regex problems and various arch problems should be fixed with the next upload.
<jcater> was that second one re sarge or sid?
Action: jcater is confused
<jbailey> sid, sorry
Action: jcater doesn't want a slightly screwed libc :)
<jbailey> Explaining the screwedednes.
<jcater> just call it a hunch :)
<jbailey> Bah!
Action: jcater is having tetrinet withdrawals at work :-/
Action: jcater may have to set up an internal server
<jcater> and train my guys to play
<jbailey> Are you now a tetrinetter?  Sweet. =)
<jbailey> I got people here addicted too.
<jcater> derek got me hooked
<jcater> damn him!
<jbailey> *lol*
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<jbailey> I'm beginning to wonder if I just summoned the ghost of jamest.
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<jamest> my ghost?
<jamest> i knew I was in pretty bad shape, and that I smelled kinda funny
<jamest> but I didn't know I was dead
<jbailey> Well, I did the jamest dance and summoned you earlier.
<jbailey> But you were silent when you appeared.
<jbailey> So perhaps I had summoned only your ghost.
Action: jamest doesn't want to know too much about the jamest dance
<jbailey> *lol*
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<psu> hi all
<jcater> word
<psu> any news on 0.4.3?
<psu> imminent, "real soon now," likely to be over-tyaken by 0.5.0?
<psu> or all of the above? ;-)
<jcater> um
<jcater> good question
Action: jcater thought derek was going to release
<jcater> what was in the branches
<jcater> maybe I misunderstood
<jcater> although, his kid's been in the hospital
<psu> yep
<jcater> so maybe he hasn't had time
<psu> hope that's resolving itself
<psu> He sounded more chipper about it last night
Action: psu can't imagine anything much worse
<jamest> um
<jamest> what does it fix?
Action: jamest doesn't recall
<jcater> mysql
<jcater> runForm
<psu> hmm
<psu> anyone know f any good sources for free (as in freedom) clipart
<psu> typing "free clip-art" into google gets me lots of free as in beer only
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<psu> www.gnu.org just gets me loads pictures of gnus
<Vee2d2> why would anyone need anything beyond that? =)
<psu> they're not very sesasonal ;-)
Action: psu couldn't find a gnu in a santa suit 
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<lupo> hi
<lupo> what release do i need to run gnue-sb?
<jcater> gnue-sb is being written against 0.4.x at the moment
<lupo> i have checked out the 041 branch, but that branch has no install files
<jcater> no install files?
<jcater> there should be common/setup.py and forms/setup.py
<Vee2d2> is gnue-sb functional for anything?
<lupo> jcater: i only looked for ./setup-cvs.py
<jcater> I'm not sure
<jcater> lupo: ah
<jcater> that should be there
<jcater> we haven't removed it
<lupo> it isn't; in cvs head, it is there
<lupo> damnit
<lupo> i've rm'ed instead of mv'ed the gnue tree :(
<lupo> what was the branch checkout command again?
<jcater> you check out head
<jcater> then
<jcater>   $ cd forms
<jcater>   $ cvs update -r forms-0-4-1-branch
<jcater>   $ cd ../designer
<jcater>   $ cvs update -r designer-0-4-1-branch
<jcater>   $ cd ../common
<jcater>   $ cvs update -r common-0-4-1-branch
<lupo> nothing for the entire tree?
<jcater> no, we have separate projects
<jcater> within our cvs tree
<jcater> each one can be released separately
<ajmitch> hello people & others
<jcater> hi ajmitch
<jcater> how's it hanging?
<ajmitch> umm
<lupo> hi ajmitch
<jbailey> 2.4.20 doesn't hang my laptop
<jbailey> Just my desktop
<ajmitch> 2.4.20 runs fine here :)
Action: jcater will be trying 2.4.20 as soon as everyone leaves
<ajmitch> been using it for a week with no problems
<jcater> and I can reboot
<reinhard> offtopic question for debian wizards
<reinhard> if i want to install a single package from sarge
<jcater> offtopic?
<jcater> there is no offtopic here :)
<jbailey> there's a topic?
<jbailey> perhaps it's offtopic for Debian wizzards.
<jbailey> Maybe it's about RedHat.
<reinhard> then i have to add sarge urls to /etc/apt/sources.list right?
<jbailey> reinhard: You could just fetch the package and install it using dpkg.
<jbailey> Or you could temporarily add sarge URLs to sources.list
<reinhard> ok
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<jbailey> You're going to have dependancy weirdness though.
<reinhard> i think this implicitely answers my question :)
<jbailey> Depending on the package, frequently it's better to use apt to download the sources and packaging and rebuild for your distro.
<jbailey> I do that with things like mailscanner and spamassassin.
<ajmitch> it'll get worse as sarge gets closer to release, and packages depend on new libc & the like :)
<reinhard> well i just added sarge to sources.list
<lupo> reinhard: there is a convinent method for that, documented on channel.debian.de/faq
<jbailey> ajmitch: We're also approaching the gcc-3.[23] transition. =)
<reinhard> and did apt-get install tuxpaint
<jbailey> I beleive there's only one bug left before that starts.
<reinhard> it worked ok (although it updated libc)
<reinhard> everything works
<ajmitch> yay!
<reinhard> but then apt-get upgrade tried to update all my packages to sarge
<reinhard> so i figured i have to comment out sarge again in sources.list
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> lupo: good hint thanks
<jamest> oooo
<jamest> you need to setup a file in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
<reinhard> add 'APT::Default-Release "woody"' to apt.conf
<jamest> leibniz$ more /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10distro
<jamest> APT::Default-Release "stable";
<reinhard> yes
<lupo> reinhard: it's easier, because then you don't have to comment/uncomment all the time
<jamest> i didn't have luck w/ the woody setting
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> thanks all
<reinhard> this still is the worlds best debian help channel :)
<jamest> well, we do have the debian glibc maintainer here
<ajmitch> hehe
<jamest> so if anything doesn't work just blame him
<ajmitch> and the debian gnue maintainer :)
<ajmitch> which is far more important than glibc :)
<jamest> yip
<ajmitch> jamest: are you mostly done with the uidriver breakages?
<jamest> nope
<ajmitch> jbailey & i plotted yesterday, talking about the win32 & gtk2 drivers
<ajmitch> sigh
<jamest> i hope to start tonight
<jamest> sorry
<jamest> real life and all that
<ajmitch> no worries
<jamest> what I need to do
<ajmitch> is there something we can help with there?
<jamest> is make it so that you can call up forms show/hide/set modal
<jcater> ajmitch: take his wife out for dinner tonight
<jcater> ajmitch: then she'll be out of the house and he can gnue !
<jamest> now just a minute
<jcater> :)
<jamest> i have a strick policy that my wife spend no time with a real man
<jamest> strict even
<jamest> do real men live in NZ?
<jcater> no
<jcater> only kiwis
<jamest> ahhhhh, then that's not so upsetting
Action: psu_ points out another flaw in plan
Action: ajmitch sulks
<psu_> ajmitch == student == 
<psu_> little money
Action: jamest == sysadmin ==
<jamest> little money
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<lupo> lupo == student (== underpaid and overworked)
<lupo> is navigator usable?
<jcater> jcater == married + one kid == wishes he was *only* broke and not so far in debt
<jamest> lupo: yes
<lupo> lupo@antigone:~/cvs/gnue-sb$ cd item/
<lupo> lupo@antigone:~/cvs/gnue-sb/item$ ls docs/
<lupo> CVS
<lupo> hm :)
<psu_> jcater: how goes the bookshop, anyway? I'm guessing you're not ready to retire off it yet...
<jcater> psu_: well, not exactly :)
<jcater> it's a very bad year
<jcater> we picked the worst year to start a local business
<ajmitch> ah
<Vee2d2> jcater: retail location?
<jcater> Vee2d2: yeah
Action: psu_ wonders if books are at all a Geffen good
<Vee2d2> jcater: neat
<Vee2d2> who else here is in business?
<psu_> i.e. consumption increases as people get poorer
<Vee2d2> <- runs an embroidery buiz
<lupo> jamest: so i can display and work with forms in navigator!?
<jcater> psu_: I would thinl
<jcater> think
<psu_> e.g. sandwiches == people can't afford a resteraunt lunch
<jcater> esp. considering we do used books
<psu_> or books == people can't afford a movie, or going away
<jamest> lupo: i know the 0.4.x navigator i use here 
<jamest> to launch forms and programs
<jamest> ajmitch: how deep into the UI stuff are you?
Action: jamest is compiling a list of things needed from the UI driver
<lupo> what is "SKU" and "UPC" ?
<psu_> lupo - in what context?
<lupo> item maintainance
<psu_> SKU = Stock Control Unit(?)
<psu_> Universal Product Code?
<lupo> ah
<psu_> SKU doesn't sound right, tho'
<jcater> stock-keeping unit
<lupo> you mean, "pcs" or "meters" or "hours"?
<Vee2d2> usually an identifier like a part number
<psu_> ah - I would call that SUOM = stock unit of measure
<ajmitch> jamest: i'm not deep into it yet
<psu_> as opposed to IUOM = Issue Unit of Measure
<ajmitch> jamest: i'm waiting for your changes to hit :)
<jcater> http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci213590,00.html
<psu_> or RUOM = receipt unit of measure
<psu_> If you really want to blow your mind, you can use diff units for all three
<lupo> i guess i need a business dictionary german-english
<jcater> that url does a decent job to defining SKU
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<psu_> e.g. Order in boxes of 1000, keep in stores in inner boxes of 100, issue as individual items
<Vee2d2> jcater: are you presently using gnue(-sb) to track your records in the store?
<jcater> sku == the barcoded numbers that appear on items at a store
<jcater> Vee2d2: not presently
<jcater> but will
<jcater> err
<jcater> sorry, that was upc
<lupo> so, in theory you could use your database id as an SKU, but it might be easier to have one?!
<jcater> yes, you could
<lupo> fine
<jcater> but you might not always want to
<lupo> then i understand :)
<jcater> that's why it's a different field
<psu_> If your main supplier has a specific set of catalogue numbers, you might want to use those
<jcater> psu_: how hard do you think it'd be to do a dictionary for gnue-sb?
<psu_> catalogue item numbers
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<jcater> should it be in gnue-sb/doc? or just a web thing (like a faq?)
<psu_> I think in the docs 
<reinhard> night al
<reinhard> all
<psu_> but I have no idea what the docs for gnue-sb will/do look like
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<jcater> psu_: re the art work
<jcater> good luck!
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater was thinking over the weekend if someone shouldn't do like gnu-artwork.org or something
<jcater> kind of like themes.org
<jcater> but for application artwork
<jcater> icons, etc
<jcater> that were gpl and gfdl compat
<lupo> what are item sources?
<jcater> lupo: where do you see that?
<psu_> possible suppliers for a specific item?
<jcater> that would be my first guess
<lupo> gnue sb, items/forms in lu_item_source_maint.gfd and item_maint.gfd
<psu_> i.e. can get Bic pens from Office Depot or Kwik-E-Mart
<psu_> but Office Depot sells them in 200s at half the price?
<lupo> but that would have a connection to a list of suppliers
<lupo> this one is just a table with an id and a text field
<psu_> unless the text field = supplier name, i.e. this is just the start of what will eventually be the supplier table
Action: psu_ really ought to either look at the code or shut up, and stop taking random guesses
<psu_> unless this is what derek was talking about some time ago, that item foobar may be made from item foo and item bar 
<psu_> both of which are also in stock.
<lupo> ah
<lupo> thats "stuecklisten" in german
<lupo> "part lists"
<lupo> where you can put together things you sell as a single product from various things you buy
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<jcater> ooooooo
<jcater> I have the perfect example schema
<jcater> for our sample apps
<jcater> a bookstore!!!
<jcater> or a book collection
<lupo> coincidence
<jcater> or something like that
<lupo> ,
<lupo> what a
<jcater> :)
<jcater> maybe a book collection would be better than a store
<jcater> as I wanted to avoid a business theme
<jcater> derek wanted a music collection
<jcater> but I wonder if books would be more universal
<jcater> (plus we can avoid trademark issues easier :)
<jbailey> Mp3 collection?
<jbailey> Get sued by lots of people then.
<jcater> oooo
<jbailey> Actually, if you did a book collection and allowed for an interface to the dewey decimal system, you could probably tag it as software for libraries.
<jcater> or a basic library card catalog system
<jbailey> Which might actually get you some users.
<jcater> lol
<jbailey> *zonk*
<jbailey> That's been on the FSF's wishlist for ages.
<jcater> what has?
<jcater> a card catalog system?
<jcater> I think I like this example
<jcater> anyone have any objections to that being our sample schema?
<jcater> going once
<jcater> twice
<ajmitch> nope
<jcater> oops
<jcater> gone!
<jcater> <snicker>
<ajmitch> go ahead
<lupo> whahats a card catalog system?
<jcater> lupo: a system a library would use to keep track of their books
<lupo> okay
Action: jcater thinks that would be fairly universal
<jcater> for a computer app example
<jbailey> Hmm.  I don't see it on the task list anymore.
<jbailey> There used to be an entry for a card catalogue system for public libraries.
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> openoffice won't let you search and replace by styles
<jcater> :(
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<banjara> hi
<lupo> hi
<banjara> anyone there for help?
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<jcater> banjara: what's up?
<banjara> getting error ImportError: No module named wxPython.wx
<banjara> when starting designer
<jcater> banjara: what os?
<banjara> jcater:Linux
<jcater> err, I mean which distro and version?
<banjara> jcater:RH 8.0
<lupo> what does python -V say? 
<banjara> 2.2.1
<lupo> how have you installed wxPython?
<banjara> i just intalled python from the RH package intaller
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<siesel> hi 
<banjara> is wxPython available in RPM form?
<lupo> i'm not sure
<lupo> try rpmfind.net
<ajmitch> hi siesel
<siesel> hi ajmitch
<lupo> siesel!
<siesel> banjara: there are rpms to download at: http://wxpython.org/download.php#binaries
<siesel> Christian, wie gehts?
<lupo> gut, danke :)
<banjara> siesel:thank...downloading now
<lupo> worst case is that i might soon have to create a custom ERP package
<ajmitch> lots of fun :)
<siesel> oh, that worst case is a good case for gnue ;)
<banjara> ok...form designer working :) ...phew!
<lupo> it is
<lupo> i'd build upon gnue-sb
<siesel> what requirements do you have to fulfil?
<lupo> but i'd love to have some company paying us all for gnue development full-time :)
<siesel> hehe
<lupo> i have a sheet of requirements
<lupo> basically customer management, item maintainance, basic (lohnbuchhaltung?) and sales rep management
<siesel> ?salary management?
<lupo> something like that
<lupo> question to all: shall i contact georg greve so that he mentions gnue in his brave new world?
<lupo> wasn't there a gnue wiki?
<ajmitch> not really, as a wiki would be yet another place where stuff could get lost :)
<lupo> ajmitch: :)
<lupo> s/new/g
<lupo> nu/
<psu_> lupo: virtual gnue wiki == mailto:psu@gnuenterprise.org
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<siesel> jcater, you here?
<psu_> i.e send docs to me & I'll get them on the "official" website - no wiki required ;-)
<lupo> psu_: you are actually a lisp script, right?
<jbailey> psu_: No, that's just his accent.
<psu_> no, that's jcater
<jbailey> ;P
<lupo> lol
<psu_> i'm more a bot than an AI
<lupo> who programmed you? your wife?
Nick change: psu_ -> kcbot
<lupo> psu_: !seen jcater
<lupo> kcbot: !seen jcater
<kcbot> lupo: erm, some time ago, I dunno
<ajmitch> 30min ago
<lupo> a bot! a bot!
<lupo> btw, is anyone of you here made of flesh and blood or is 
<kcbot> lupo: no, we are all figments of yr imagination
<lupo> #gnuenterprise just a collection of randomly-acting, python-code generating lisp scripts and bots?
<lupo> the matrix
<kcbot> hmm The Matrix == only film I have ever walked out of
<lupo> why?
<lupo> so bad?
<jbailey> kcbot: Really?  Angie and I bought the DVD because we liked it so much. =)
<kcbot> seriously scary shit
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch has watched it a number of times :)
<kcbot> "if that's entertainment, i'm a bannana
Nick change: kcbot -> banana
Action: jbailey searches google for a picture of psu.
<lupo> scary? like scary movie?
Nick change: banana -> psu_
<lupo> mmmkay guys, gotta go. late here, at least according to local time.
Action: Vee2d2 resets lupo's timezone
<psu_> it's always late somewhere in #gnuenterprise ;-)
<jbailey> unless tetrinet is mentioned.
<jbailey> That seems to make more time available.
<lupo> Vee2d2: aieee, you make me work 24/7!
<ajmitch> late?
<Vee2d2> =)
<ajmitch> it's not even lunchtime!
<jbailey> It's like 11am.
<jbailey> That's lunchtime.= )
<lupo> it's like 11pm
<ajmitch> jbailey: depends on when you had breakfast :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: 09h30 am. =)
<psu_> lunctime is a state of mind, not a state of clock
<jbailey> psu_: Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.
<psu_> jbailey: indeed
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<lupo> bye then
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<jbailey> jcater: On 2.4.20 now?
<jcater> no
<jcater> upgrading OpenOffice
<jcater> :()
<jcater> that was my file server I need to upgrade, not my pc :)
<jbailey> Ah, I thought perhaps that since it was just after 5 they might have all left.
<jcater> it's 4:12 here
Action: jcater is central time
<jcater> besides
<jamest> isn't everyone?
<jcater> on days I need to do admin stuff afterhours
<jcater> they stay much later
<jcater> but only on those days
<jamest> lol
<jamest> i setup my killAllUsers to run a 11PM at a local company
<jamest> they close at 8
<jamest> someone got bit by it
<jamest> i set it back to 1am
<jamest> someone got bit by it
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> they're more dedicated than I
<jamest> of course MY name is bypassed during a killAllUsers
<siesel> jcater, jamest: I would like to replace the actual postgres only solution to write a schema into the database
<siesel> (from designer) 
<siesel> and use the scripter sql generator instead.
<siesel> But you (jcater) have said, that the scriptor stuff (or its place, or ... I dunno) would just be a interim solution
<siesel> Should this be addressed before 5.0 ?
<jcater> I don't think so
<siesel> btw. what is your shedule for 5.0?
<ajmitch> about 10 years off, i'd say ;)
<jamest> if i'd get off my arse it'd be sooner
<ajmitch> jbailey: you pestered jamest yet? ;)
<jcater>  I foresee 0.5.0 very soon
<siesel> do you mean like a christmas present? :)
<ajmitch> jcater: 0.5.0, perhaps. 5.0 will probably be a long way off, at this rate
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> 10 years might be a good estimae
<jamest> it's taken 2 or 3 to get to 0.5.0!
<jamest> and you want 5.0 in only 10?!?!?!?!?
<jamest> what's the rush?
Action: jcater thinks we should skip 2.0
<siesel> sh**, can anyone sells me a keyboard which does eat the "0." keypresses?
<jcater> and go from 1.0 to 3.0
<ajmitch> well once 0.5.0 is out we'll probably have lots more users, and more coders, right? ;)
<ajmitch> i think that 1.0 should be skipped
<jcater> ajmitch: and more chicks?
<ajmitch> and we should either have 1.1 or 1.0.1
<ajmitch> jcater: sure
<siesel>  /does/doesn't/
Action: jcater thinks we should drop this versioning
<jcater> and go GNUe 2002!
<ajmitch> that's so old
<ajmitch> GNUe XP!
<jcater> oooo
<ajmitch> GNUe .NET edition ;)
<jcater> GNUe WC
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> --> Won't Crash
<jcater> GNUe SU --> Somewhat Useful
<jcater> GNUe WTF --> need I say more
<ajmitch> GNUe WC - for all your toileting needs ;)
<jcater> GNUe FU --> The Win32 release
<Vee2d2> heh
<siesel> What was the name of the config option to set the cache size of some dbdrivers? 
<siesel> I remember, the postgresql driver had this kind of setting.
<jamest> it's part of the datasource tag
<jamest> cache="10" IIRC
<siesel> found it, thx
<siesel> never use kmail to write long mails and press Ctrl-W
<jamest> s/to write long mails and press Ctrl-W//
<siesel> so what do you use?
<jamest> pine
<jamest> every gui mail reader i have tried has sucked more than pine
<jamest> some a great deal more
<jamest> some only a little more
<jamest> but kmail was especially bad in kde 2.2
<jamest> i'm waiting for kde 3.1 to try it again
<jamest> but it'll probably suck
<ajmitch> yup
Action: siesel using kde 3.0 and it sucks
Action: ajmitch using mutt
<siesel> but I don't use mutt anymore, because it wasn't able to set the correct sender mail address
<jamest> mutt is ok but confirugring via text editor sucked
<jamest> and the fact you have to go thru hoops to setup multiple inbxes sucked
<jamest> lack of imap support(IIRC) sucked
<jamest> ok, maybe it wasn't ok :)
<jamest> i tried to use it to be a good fsf'r
<siesel> but the biggest issue was, that you had to close mutt, and restart it in another terminal to read f.e. chinese etc. email
<jbailey> jamest: I don't think mutt is GNU software. =)
<jamest> it's not
<jamest> but I know they dislike the pine license
<jbailey> Besides if you wanted to be a good FSF'er shouldn't you use emacs and rmail?
<jbailey> =)
<jamest> and all the gui mail clients sucked more
<jamest> probably 
<jbailey> Evolution's been working well for me.
<jamest> my main issues w/ gui mail clients are they require mouse to do much
<jamest> i can tab between multiple inboxes
<jamest> s/can/can't
<jamest> i can't jump up and down thru folders
<jcater> bah
<jcater> just vi the mbox file
<jcater> then you have bash completion
<jcater> and grep for searching
<jamest> laugh
<jamest> but i've done that
<jbailey> I still do that.
<jbailey> Evolution stores each folder in mbox
<jbailey> (or maildir if you ask it to)
<jbailey> When I'm at work, I use mutt to load in the mbox files. =)
<siesel> al
<siesel> uups
<jbailey> siesel: You okay?
<siesel> apt-get install pine      won't work
<jbailey> siesel: pine's non-Free.
<jbailey> Every DD has to explain why when they're becoming a developper. =)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> "Because I love pain"
<jcater> or
<jbailey> No, that's why we applied to be DD's.
<jcater> "Because what else would I do with my Saturday"
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Action: Vee2d2 uses sylpheed fwiw
Action: jcater too
<jcater> iirc it has emacs key bindings
<jcater> not that I use them
<Vee2d2> it's a pretty decent client, I only wish for a biff that worked with it's mh style directory structure.. though I think that is addressed somewhere in the faq
<jcater> my wish is that it handled imap better
<jcater> it does well
<jcater> but has several oddities
<jcater> that are frustrating
<jcater> but I haven't found anything I like better
<jcater> so I live with them
<jbailey> Perhaps in your spare time you want to help hack on Hydrant. =)
<jcater> Hydrant?
<ajmitch> what dogs pee on
<jbailey> (which is otherwise so low on my priority list that it's not on my TODO web page at all)
<jbailey> ajmitch: Exactly right.
<jbailey> ajmitch: Sort of like pine or elm.
<jbailey> ajmitch: In fact, the name was chosen when I was trying to think of what mutt and pine and elm had in common. =)
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> lol
<jcater> rofl
<jbailey> Anyhow.  It's intended to be the MUA that sits on mailutils.
<ajmitch> YAMUA
<jbailey> Sure.
<ajmitch> why?
<jbailey> A few different reasons.
<ajmitch> "cos i can"
<jbailey> 1) Because it's a way that we can get better testing on mailutils.
<jbailey> 2) The design is wrapped around a plugin type of system and is supposed to use guile raelly heavily.
<jbailey> The theory is that anyone still using a console-based MUA should realyl have the ability to customise without having to compile.
<ajmitch> ok
<jbailey> So the whole thing is just a series of hooks.
<ajmitch> wolfgang will like it if it uses guile :)
<ajmitch> but is it part of emacs? ;)
<jbailey> And since there's now a python interpretor written in guile, you could use either guile or python.
<jcater> you should use python
<jbailey> jcater: I'd be generally inclined to do that, but the Official Extensibility Langue of the GNU Project is Guile(tm)
<ajmitch> yes, why doesn't forms support guile triggers yet? ;)
<jcater> um
<jcater> imho
<jcater> that shows a sickness of gnu
<jcater> ajmitch: we will
Action: ajmitch shudders
<jcater> but to use a functional language as the official extension language?
<jbailey> Well, since at this point my needs are generally met by evolution, it's unlikely to ever get written.
<jcater> what does that say
<jcater> "Not a hacker? tough shit... you don't belong here"
<jbailey> jcater: The idea is that other languages can be cheaply converted into guile.
<ajmitch> jcater: that there's a certain level of perversity within GNU ranks?
<jcater> jbailey: at that rate, use C as the official extension language :)
<jcater> to me, that's self-justification, not a reason
<jcater> =)
<jbailey> jcater: But you could use *anything* as an extension language then, so long as there was an interpretor for it.
<jbailey> I think it's a great idea if there were people jumping on to write interpretors.
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> I think that's twisted logic
<jbailey> jcater: Think of it this way.
<jbailey> The programmer writes only one set of interfaces.
<jbailey> The user then uses plugins to get whatever interfaces they need.
<jbailey> Done properly, an interface language (say, perl or python) only needs to be written and maintained once, and it should work for all GNU apps.
<jbailey> If you come along and write another one, say ECMAScript or something.  When that's written, all GNU apps automatically have that avaiulable as an extension language then.
<jcater> sound great
<jcater> in theory
<jbailey> It would be wonderful.  If people were actually doing it.
<jcater> does it actually work that way though?
<ajmitch> sure, see .NET for examples ;)
<jbailey> That's supposed to be one of the great things about guile is the ability to do that language translation.
<jbailey> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gpc/ is the only example I know of.
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<jbailey> tetrinet anyone?
<ajmitch> argh
<ajmitch> evil word
<jbailey> ajmitch: Is that a yes?
<ajmitch> no
<jbailey> Bah!
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> i haven't played tetrinet yet, and i don't plan to start that now :)
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<jbailey> chillywilly: come play tetrinet. =)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> I should do something useful ;)
<chillywilly> however...
<jbailey> I'm only up for a couple games.
<chillywilly> I can peek in for a bit
<chillywilly> alrighty
<chillywilly> first I have to piss like a race horse ;-o
<chillywilly> just thought I'd share
<ajmitch> hi chillywilly
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<chillywilly> hi ajmitch
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Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:39:55)
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Action: jcater is away: fooood
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> barely in here 10 seconds & already he has to run out for food
<rdean> all those mouse/key clicks must have made him hungry :-)
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:07:00)
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<ajmitch> wb chillywilly
<chillywilly> thnx
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<ajmitch> why'd you run out?
<ajmitch> yo jbailey
<jbailey> me?
<jbailey> I went home. =)
<ajmitch> no, chillywilly
<ajmitch> oh, i see why :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch>  20:28:36 up 9 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.24, 0.29, 0.18
<ajmitch> poor chillywilly
<chillywilly> no more spamassassin killing my server
Action: jbailey is away: dinner
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:27:21)
<chillywilly> hi
<jbailey> hi
Action: jbailey opens a browser to read the make manual.
<chillywilly> no tetrinet?!?
<chillywilly> this can't be!
<ajmitch> tetrinet mmust not be
<chillywilly> it must and will be!!!
<chillywilly> it's like the crack cocaine of internet gaming
<jbailey> I'm trying to sort something out for the Hurd automake stuff. =(
<jbailey> I figured out what my problem was this morning.  The solution isn't obvious to me.
Action: ajmitch sneaks onto chillywilly's box & remove tetrinet
<chillywilly> hey!
<chillywilly> you want your account revoked?
<chillywilly> that's the no. 1 rule
<chillywilly> no removing tetrinet!
<ajmitch> :D
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<chillywilly> jeff!
[22:00] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<chillywilly> tetrinet!
[22:00] Last message repeated 3 time(s).
Action: chillywilly throws kerosine on jbailey
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> jbailey's monitor
Action: chillywilly threatens to light it if he doesn't come play tetrinet
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> I thoguth they stopped burning heathens at the stake a while ago.
<jbailey> Perhaps it's like burning the vegan at the steak?
<ajmitch> lol
<jbailey> That may not have stopped yet.
<jbailey> ajmitch: That's how you kill a vegan, you know.
<jbailey> Drive a steak through his heart.
<chillywilly> wanna play jbailey?
<ajmitch> jbailey: chillywilly wishes for you to play tetrinet
<chillywilly> a porterhouse?
<chillywilly> ;P
<ajmitch> mmmm, steak
<jbailey> I'm just trying to figure who I need to complain to, bug-hurd for them wanting something stupid, or bug-automake for them not giving me an easy way to implement it.
<chillywilly> BOTH ;)
<jbailey> Basically, they refer to trivfs.h as <hurd/trivfs.h> in generated mig stubs.
<jbailey> But in the source tree, it's in <trvifs/trivfs.h>
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<jbailey> In the current build env, they spoof it by *generating* a hurd subtree with fake header files that #include the correct one.
<ajmitch> yuck
<ajmitch> sick people
Nick change: [[rdean]] -> rdean
<jcater> gack
<chillywilly> jcater: tetrinet?
<jcater> um
<ajmitch> hi jcater
<chillywilly> you know you wanna play
<jcater> ....must
<jcater> ....resist
<jcater> ....temptation
<chillywilly> never!
<jcater> ok
<chillywilly> give in!
<jcater> one game
<chillywilly> lol
<jbailey> Whatever happened to 'and lead us not into temptation'.
<rdean> come to the dark side, jcater
Action: jbailey was surprised last night the he remembered the Lord's Prayer.
<jcater> oooo
<chillywilly> well if you recite it a billion times
<jcater> I know that one
<chillywilly> it becomes less authentic, imho
<jcater> "Lord, please bless this steak unto our stomachs"
<chillywilly> the Lord's Prayer is a model of *how* you should pray
<jbailey> I think it also saves the preacher of coming up with a new one every week. =)
<chillywilly> not frelling something to repeat every time at "mass"
<chillywilly> but I digress
<chillywilly> rituals...
<chillywilly> ugh
<jcater> what is church?
<jcater> but a bunch of rituals and traditions?
<jbailey> and community
<chillywilly> the catholic church maybe'
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: chillywilly ducks
<jcater> chillywilly: get your butt in tetrinet and press start
<chillywilly> ok
<rdean> hrm...Lord's Prayer takes about 20 seconds to recite.....1,000,000,000 times = 634 years, assuming no pauses for life
<rdean> wonder how fast it would take the Micro Machines guy?
<rdean> s/fast/long/
<derek> church != religion 
<derek> but unfortunately most of the time it does
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--- Tue Dec 10 2002